It's a shame more videos like this aren't made because these are the types of videos that are the most helpful. Most other videos suffer the same symptom of your scene here where they "idealize" the process of writing instead of showing all the mistakes/criticisms/etc. that actually go into it. Thank you for showing rather than telling!

Thank you for volunteering as tribute for the betterment of our storytelling abilities 🙇‍♀️

@JohneCook

3 ай бұрын

I just flashed back to Jennifer Lawrence!

@nikkinewbie6014

2 ай бұрын

May the odds be ever in Tim’s favor. 😂😂😂

I love this idea, Tim. (You're a glutton for punishment but you're leading the way for all of us storytellers who are laboring to do what you're doing, learning how to tell a story that works.) You're braver than I am, my friend.

@zigaudrey

2 ай бұрын

Glutton implies he is consuming everything without taking account what criticism mean. No, he is a gourmand of punishment!

I just found your old podcast and I can’t say how helpful this kind of content is. It’s gotta be scary to be so vulnerable with your work but I’m grateful for it.

@DjiloWriting-xd1us

2 ай бұрын

Same here! The podcast is pure gold

New writer still learning craft here. Before I found Story Grid, I came across a general principle proposed for writing a love story. It seems to align with Shawn’s assessment about the avatars in a love story not having the initial goal state of finding love. What this other source said is that the love story cannot start out being the main plot. There has to be a separate goal for each of the couple that they are already actively pursuing when the ball of chaos represented by them meeting happens. That should be the case in any kind of story I think. I think of it as the protagonist’s existing status quo goal which changes after / because of the inciting incident. It was the second part of the approach that really stood out and made me take notice of it as a conscious choice of the writer in crafting the story. Reaching their individual goals (or a common goal that the writer establishes after the two lovers meet) should be obstructed by the “PROBLEM” of the couple falling in love! For example, a protagonist wants to move to Hollywood to become an actress, which is her lifelong dream. When her best friend gets promoted to casting at a major studio, it could be the opportunity for her to earn her big break. To give the friend some time to build her credibility in her new position the protagonist doesn’t set off to Hollywood right away; but instead, she enrolls in an acting class to fine tune her skills. Things get complicated when she falls in love with the acting coach and they live on the East Coast. So in this scenario, not only was the protagonist not looking for love; but the prospect of and progression of the love relationship becomes an obstacle to the protagonist’s initial story goal - moving to Hollywood to pursue a career in acting. This isn’t the best example but focusing on the approach, I love how this bakes in the eventual global crisis and leads to the avatar’s realization about how what they want is not what will make them happiest but what they need to change will. But before they get there, the whole “falling for this person is going to sway me from achieving my goal…but I can’t help falling for him” dynamic introduces such delicious internal conflict as the relationship progresses. It seems to me that this could be an especially good source of conflict in a story that’s not straight up hate to love in that the conflict is more internal than external circumstances as to why the couple initially dislike each other. With hate to love, that kind of conflict obviously has to change fairly soon in the middle build or else you run out of time to move the couple towards a significant positive connection / intimacy / love. However, if the relationship itself is the obstacle to the main story goal for one or both of the people in the relationship, then that conflict lasts all the way up until the aha moment. Making the couple fall in love present as a problem also seems to build in stakes and the need for one or both to make the obligatory sacrifice at the end of the story to achieve the HEA. Which will the protagonist choose - new found love or the pursuit of a lifelong dream that’s in reach of being a working actress in Hollywood? (Insert here a reason why the love interest couldn’t just move to California with the protagonist). This feels like real life too because “when it rains it pours” rings true both to the good and the bad. Why couldn’t she meet and fall in love with a great guy who lives in CA after she got cast in the TV show? 😂😂. Because life often boils down to either / or and few of us get to both have the cake and eat it too. All of this said, I feel like the Lovers Meet scene is a tough one to look at outside of the story’s global context irrespective of the goal state for writing the scene. But I really enjoyed this video and appreciated being granted access to this whole process. No one else is writing and sharing their drafts and getting honest and detailed feedback on them - all documented for us to watch, rewatch, take notes and learn from. So a huge thanks to you all at Story Grid for making these videos! Story Grid is not for the faint of heart. 😂. The complexity and depth of the concepts are two of the reasons why it really does stand apart from the rest - in the best possible ways! Full transparency- I don’t think I could ever master all of the techniques and tools made available; but if I can get a handle on a fraction of what it offers, I feel like I’ll have a real shot at writing a story that works at a minimum. That’s the starting point for making the project into something satisfying, memorable and enjoyable for the reader.

I loved this because it was like watching myself. You go into these things thinking you got it all under control, and then it goes sideways. Thanks for keeping it real.

I was JUST talking to my sister about how the trouble with amateur writing workshops is that whether they're too harsh or too kind, they ALWAYS assume what you've done is what you set out to do. They're rarely willing (or able?) to tell you when the idea is just just broken and you have to start over. THIS GUY did not let that happen to you!

This is so awesome and revealing! It's rare for people to show their failures and how they grow from them. "Put the hurricane in the coffee shop." Is a perfect analogy!! Thank you!

I like the idea of being authentic and not just doing things for drama. I like the cowbell.

Respect for sharing this initial draft! I just took the 6-week scene writing workshop with Tim which I highly recommend! One of the challenges I found in writing isolated scenes with brand new characters is that it’s almost impossible to immediately have a sense of them as fleshed out personalities with all their inner-conflict, ambitions, flaws, blind spots and quirks that come into clearer focus and make sense over time. You’re not necessarily supposed to know everything about them until you spend that time with them, both in planning stage and when you go back and rewrite. While it’s incredibly useful to focus on the micro-dynamics of a particular scene and upskill line-by-line writing, I also feel this comes more naturally when you see the scene in the context of the greater whole, rather than trying to land on authenticity so quickly. I think this is part of what Sean’s speaking to. There are much bigger things going on for Elizabeth Bennett and Mr Darcy than what is happening at the dance and that bigger picture informs their behaviour within the scene.

Much of what Shawn is saying makes a lot of sense. The scene is fine as a first draft. I think the reason the scene needs a 'hurricane' is because no matter what you do, the basic elements of 'lovers meet' is always going to be a cliché. There's simply no way around that, and the key is to make the scene do double duty. In other words, do something else, at the same time, to make the scene interesting. When two people cross paths at the beginning of a courtship love story, there are three options for how they might react: attraction, indifference, and repulsion. We can dismiss indifference as it is not an inciting incident and doesn't disrupt the status quo. But we're still left with three options: attraction, repulsion, and attraction plus repulsion. If you choose attraction, you still have a scene element that is going to be a cliché, because all obligatory moments are going to have some element of cliché to them based on us seeing them a million times. That's just the way of the world. If you choose repulsion, that doesn't really ignite a courtship love story, because at some point there has to be a transition to attraction for it to be a love story. And then you're writing two clichés. If you choose attraction plus repulsion, a cliché in itself, you still have to end up with attraction on its own, so then you're dealing with three clichés. All of them are as obvious to the reader as is a ginormous parade float inching its way down Broadway, which is why I would choose to write the fewest clichés. But maybe it would be best to not fret about how to make a universally uninteresting trope interesting and instead focus on how to make the scene it falls in interesting in spite of its purpose in life being to serve an expected convention. Regardless what you choose, lovers meet is an obligatory moment, meaning you will not be able to avoid the fact that it has a significant element of cliché to it, clash or no clash. This is why you need the 'hurricane'. Lovers meet happens in the same territory as the dreaded exposition, the character introduction, characterization, and an attempt to get the reader to bond with the protagonist by creating empathy, identification, admiration, and attitude and voice. So what I do in a situation like this is to create the hurricane using those things that need to happen in this part of the story. Things the reader will enjoy much more than the obvious cliché that must also be there. Sneak some of those into the scene to raise stakes, create tension and conflict, present obstacles, and illuminate the object of desire. Try to make it look as if the lovers meet is what's being sneaked in to the scene. Sell the sizzle instead of trying to sell the steak.

@nikkinewbie6014

2 ай бұрын

I enjoyed this comment tremendously. I am new to craft and still learning from different sources. Story Grid stands apart in so many ways - including how we get to “ride along” with Tim as he goes on his journey. We see Tim’s drafts and we see the detailed feedback. No one else is doing this!

@nikkinewbie6014

16 күн бұрын

I just reread your comment because another person’s like brought me back to it. I didn’t say so before; but I found those last few sentences especially golden. They resonate as an approach to writing this kind of scene. When you say to write it as if the event of the lovers meeting is being sneaked into the scene, I liken that to the meeting being almost incidental. At the risk of making this comment tldr, a line that sticks out to me in the movie Silence of The Lambs prompts me to use that word - incidental. It was such a telling piece of dialogue for me for several reasons. Even more so now as I learn craft. In one scene that is NOT a lovers meet scene 😂 Lector schools Starling by asking her to specify what Buffalo Bill does. She answers “He kills women.” Lector corrects her “No. That is incidental”. As in it’s not even what we the audience should be focusing on because it’s not “the point”. In Buffalo Bill’s case, he’s killing women as a by product of what he’s really trying to accomplish (harvesting the skins that he covets to make his girl suit). So in that same vein, I think I’ll write my scene in a way that the lovers meet only because of something “more important” or “deeper” happening as if it’s not the whole point of the scene. That approach should even help to mitigate the cliche factor to some extent. This also fits with the idea that each of the lovers need to be pursuing their own separate status quo goals when they “happen” to meet this creating a meaningful reason why they meet as well as the why behind the attraction, repulsion or combined response. The third response appeals to me because it’s deliciously complex. It’s a spectrum and at any given point in time the needle can slide depending on the circumstances. That feels more like the state of mind / emotion equivalent to the double factor problem space. How does the couple feel about each other? The answer is “it depends…on the situation, the scene, the context, the point they’re at in the relationship”. Admittedly you can only do that for so long but it seems a great source for internal conflict early on. I agree with you about the inevitability of cliches too. It’s actually what the readers come for to some extent. Factoring in cliches in genre fiction writing is unavoidable. Otherwise you risk making the genre (subgenre) unrecognizable or at least less satisfying to the reader. Thanks again for your comment. I took a lot from it.

Love Shaun's closing line - "Whatever you do, do something." LOL

Honestly, I haven't thought about the difference between practicing writing and writing to publish. You are congratulated on your insight.

The “it’s kind of cute “ broke me hahahhaha . Amazing video , thx to both of you 🙏🏽

Your scene was decent, Shawn’s comment were very interesting had my mad rolling and thinking! Cant wait for your updated scene! Thank you for this amazing video

This is one of the best little writing advice gems I have seen for a long time. Pure gold (cliche, shit) or, shall I say, pure alchemy. I love the idea of putting a hurricane in the coffee shop. That advice alone is worth more than tons of theoretical BS.

Defnitely want to see how it turns out, thanks for doing this.

Tim, thanks for dreaming up this format for sharing knowledge (and taking the punches for us). Speaking for myself, the application of the SG concepts to actual non-masterwork prose is where all the value lies. Also, unsolicited take here, having two people end up despising each other is a possible outcome for this scene, but I wonder if it meets the Real-life test? Maybe there is useful space in just having the meeting be "memorable" to each of them in a way that's informative to us about each of them. In any case, I'm rooting for our next draft.

That took a lot of balls to do. I am impressed. At the same time, it was also very educational as well and I did learn something. I have been told that the first draft is rarely good. I have also learned that feedback is essential for any writer no matter how good you are. Writers need to know this stuff. You are very fortunate to have a professional check your work and give that kind of feedback. I watched the follow-up to this video first and a very noticeable improvement in your second version. Thank You for this video.

Mad respect to you, especially the part where you share how vulnerable you're feeling.

This is beyond valuable. Massive respect for taking us through the process when so many writers are reluctant to do so. Everyone starts with a first draft.

I loved this video - thank you for tackling romance. It's different from other genres b/c the external goal is *never* "to fall in love", and there is no antagonist. Add to that the popular convention of writing in dual POV and you must incorporate two character arcs, two sets of external goals/fears/misbeliefs, the romance arc, and the plot of the story. As a result, I find it hard to apply much of the writing advice out there. This has been tremendously helpful - can't wait for the next installment!

you're a hero for doing this.

@samhammond6195

Ай бұрын

Thank you!

This was incredibly informative, thank you! Can you please do more of these videos or just general advice into getting constructive feedback such as this?

Interesting to see this process. I'm an obsessive character writer. I've never planned a scene without knowing the characters, like you do here. You know it is a lovers meet and then you come up with characters. I take ages thinking characters through, but once that's done, I can throw them anywhere and get a compelling scene - matter of figuring out what happens in it (and it has to be interesting, sure, but it is easy when you know where all the buttons are) In your place, the coffee shop wouldn't be the issue. What the highlight is will matter. If the coffee shop is ordinary, make the characters interesting. Simply the way two people talk can portray the worlds they come from. The story will have constraints. My book two happens in very limited settings. It doesn't matter. The story is interesting. Circumstantial drama is convenient, but not necessary. The story is in the people. What you spend words on, the reader's mind follows.

oh wow, thanks, this is so exciting! I did enjoy your scene setting, with the cow bell and shaft of light breaking into the room. Looking forward to the rewrite.

@StoryGrid

3 ай бұрын

I think that is literally the only part of the first draft that I kept so I’m glad you like it! - Tim

I feel like I'm watching one of the those cage fights and someone is clearly losing.

@dexterpoindexter3583

3 ай бұрын

Yes! I've been wondering if these two, who must know each other well, don roles for the video to bring the drama forward. Well meaning yet stinging critic, vs Sad Sack who desperately wants to write with heart but is still learning to listen to his own? Of course it's an armchair quarterback POV 😄

@feruspriest

3 ай бұрын

​@dexterpoindexter3583 I've talked with Shawn in real life and went back and forth about an idea with him, and he was willing to shut me down when I was off course and redirect me. I will say if you can ever go to a live training with Shawn, his off-camera demeanor is great. Yeah, he's still "on" because he's in work mode, but he is as conscientious as he is critical. I talked with Tim for awhile at a training too, and what looks like a dude getting knocked around by his editor is probably better described as a man exerting enormous discipline over himself to hear the signal over the chatter of his ego's self defense system.

@feruspriest

3 ай бұрын

Put another way: there is some level of performance for the medium Tim and Shawn are using, but neither man is performing the intensity or eagerness of their regard for the craft.

@dexterpoindexter3583

3 ай бұрын

@@feruspriest Fine to hear this! Well said! If I may bundle it with your next insightful remark: It seems if they were really exploring what works & considering how to upgrade what doesn't, with the passion one would expect, then only another old hand could follow their train of thought. Which would be exciting for an intelligent movie, but pointless for a tutorial.

@danielryan7315

3 ай бұрын

with one distinct difference - they both win - and we win too, a great teaching moment

Thank for sharing this experience with us.

Very constructive. Thanks! BTW: Met my wife in a coffee shop. I was on foot going down Broadway in panic trying to outrun the "cloud" of the second World Trade Tower collapse looking for someplace to duck in. The proprietor of a coffee shop opened his door, stepped out, pointed inside and yelled "go!". The moment he closed the door after I managed to squeeze in, the toxic "cloud" rattled by at tsunami speed. The place was jammed with stunned and weeping bodies. Fate pressed me into her.

Having just had my manuscript shredded by a professional, this video was reassuring and informative. Misery loves company.

This was fantastic. Thank you.

Shawn's critique is priceless.

I subbed about an hour ago! I'm going to devour all your content and knowledge :D

I love all your videos and I learn something from every single one. I wonder how the simulation works on a short story ?

Love the concept and format of these videos. It maybe would have been an idea to mention the chapter is linked in the description so we could pop down and read it first, before the chat about it? One thing that would probably be fixed by "throwing the hurricane into the coffee shop," but wasn't really addressed in your conversation is how it would feel to readers of romance. Most romance novels have the central conflict and the character arcs woven tightly together; so the characters have to overcome their flaw or erroneous belief and grow order to be emotionally mature enough to resolve whatever issue is at the heart of the story's climax. This means that the vast majority of them start out with one or both protagonists having trust, self-esteem, or some other issue that keeps them closed off. Having the female protagonist actively pursue the love interest felt jarring, because that's usually when we're starting to see hints of what their fatal-flaws/misbeliefs/issues are.

Tim, I have to say you're a very brave man. Wow.

This was super helpful - both having the sample for us to read and going through the feedback session. Thank you for putting yourself out there and sharing it all. This is a bit of what we do with our shares at the monthly Writing Group I moderate at the library where I work.

I really enjoyed this, Tim. It’s great to see you and Shawn together again. Your interaction has always been fun for me to watch or listen to. Looking forward to next week’s episode. 😊📚📖

I am a real nerd who is the first draft of my first novel so this type of stuff is so helpful. Good talk guys

Thanks Tim for this awesome video. I really like the way you put everything together. I learned a lot from Shawns Feedback. Thanks for keeping writing so real and authentic. It is all about: you do shit, you get feedback, you do better shit. Rinse and repeat ;) By the way. What about letting aliens land in the coffee shop? :)

I loved this vid so much! Please do this more for different tropes 🙏

Thanks for the video man. Very authentic and pretty straightforward. Thanks for being vulnerable.

Great video, looking forward to the series. Beatings will continue untl the scene improves. Respect.

I'm not always of the same opinion than you, but mad respect of filming your process and being open and vulnerable about it. This was very interesting

This was incredible, thank you!

This is awesome. I’m about to head into a writer’s group for feedback this morning and I’m always so nervous to share. But the part about idealized stories is 🔥

Why don't you use the Five Commandments to "outline" the scene. That has been one of the best tools that I have learned tow write a scene. I always start with that. It gives me the questions of the scene and how I am going to answer it.

Best Vid so far, more more of this please

Good stuff! Thanks!

Thank you so much for doing this for us

great video

very interesting video. thanks for sharing.

This reminds me of the saying, the future is unwritten. My life has been like a book of short stories. So I have a good grasp on how what we set out to achieve never happens as we envisioned. Each new choice in the story alters the outcome and in such an abstract way that we can’t really predict the future. Hindsight being 20/20 possibly outlining a book/scene backwards might be more helpful?

I don’t agree with the idea that EVERY scene should have a crisis. That isn’t the case in real life or in great fiction. Crisis is only one way that conflict can be resolved.

@tomlewis4748

3 ай бұрын

I think every scene does need a crisis question, but every scene does not need a dilemma. There is a difference with a distinction there. Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep has 33 scenes. Every one of them has a crisis question, but not one of them presents a dilemma to Philip Marlowe. He doesn't fret about what to do. He knows what to do. He just handles the situation. And that novel is as high in the canon as it gets. A crisis is not what resolves conflict. The action that happens in the climax is what resolves conflict. The interesting thing about the turning point and the crisis question is they typically do not end up on the page. What ends up on the page is the climax, and the reader infers from what happens in the climax as to what the turning point was and what the decision, the answer chosen based on the crisis question, was that was made by the protagonist. The crisis question and the decision options are things that occur in the reader's mind rather than on the page. The writer's goal is to get that to happen not by writing it on the nose, but by implying it through subtext and through the climax. Readers put a book down for two reasons: 1) they don't care what's going to happen, or 2) they already know what's going to happen. If you telegraph what's going to happen by putting that on the page as the crisis question or the turning point, the reader then knows what's going to happen, so that's the functional equivalent of unholstering your Glock, pulling back the hammer, pointing it at your foot, and firing.

I like how you write outside by a fire 🔥 I gotta try that

First by listening to this you need to know PCCSQ and more character development for each of your characters for each scene. PCCSQ is PROBLEM: CHOICE: CHANGE: SOLVE: QUESTION: CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT is CHARACTER'S NAME: CHARACTER'S GOAL: CHARACTER'S DESIRE: CHARACTER'S FEAR: CHARACTER'S TRUTH: CHARACTER'S MISBELIEF:

This was great, very informative. Do we need to know what OOD means? (first plan notes)

@StoryGrid

3 ай бұрын

OOD = Object of Desire. kzread.info/dash/bejne/dpt91quIedqek7A.html - Tim

I quickly wrote this for you (it is translated from German by deepl and slightly redacted so don't be too harsh because of the language): The chicken was quick. Once Marie had it pinned down in one corner and thought it was already in her hands, it jumped between her legs and ran clucking to the other side of the courtyard. The gate was closed, it couldn't escape. "Have the axe ready, Lukas. We'll have it in a minute." Her little brother watched eagerly, cheering her on and giving instructions: "Watch out, it wants to escape over the trough. Lure it to the shed.” It wasn't her first chicken, but that day nothing worked. "That b*! Give me the axe, I'll throw it after her,” she shouted. Lukas stood in front of the chopping block. "Mum said she wanted to serve it properly. Last time, half a leg was missing.". Finally, at the shed, Marie grabbed the chicken. It wouldn’t get away again now. "Hooray, we've got it," Lukas rejoiced and reached for the axe, "Bring it here. I want to swing this time." They already had it on the block. "You grab it with your left hand, I'll let go now on three.", Marie said. But Lukas just wasn't skilful enough yet. The chicken seized the opportunity and jumped up, they both reached after it and involuntarily gave it the momentum it needed to flutter over the courtyard wall. Marie looked angrily at Lukas. "Why did you let go so early?" he defended himself. There was no time for an argument, they had to catch up with the chicken before it could make a run for it. Marie hurried to the gate. "Quick, if it gets to the pasture, we'll never catch it." She opened the gate and paused. Marie looked at two broad shoulders in a coat. "Is this yours?" a young man asked, holding up the chicken, which he held firmly by both legs. That's what Grandma always told us. "Two broad shoulders in a coat.” I always thought it was a cruel story and hoped that my first encounter would be under nicer circumstances. It flashed through my mind as the young man stood in front of me. “You dropped that." He smiled. No broad shoulders. I took the potato bag and turned away coldly. This couldn't be the encounter. Even the Grandma’s story of the chicken is more romantic. (I think this scene works although I did not try to observe in the slightest way any writing advice about conflict etc. I think that once you have a good scene, everything just flows from it.)

@allesaufanfang-sarah

Ай бұрын

I like it. I just didn't understand the grandma part at the end and her cold reaction (maybe I didn't read it thoroughly enough?) was ich besonders toll fand war wie überraschend die Begegnung war Und dass, obwohl die Szene so kurz war, ich sie ziemlich gut vor meinen Augen gesehen habe

@jeyhey5320

Ай бұрын

@@allesaufanfang-sarah Thank you! I see, the text is not clear enough. The chicken episode is the story her Grandma used to tell of how she met her future husband. I should probably add a sentence at the beginning of the second paragraph: „That's what Grandma always told us. This was her story of how she met Grandpa.“

We need that rewrite my guy, so we can see how you implemented what Shawn said!!

16:01 I need to read the scene. Is this a contemporary romance or a different type of story with a romantic element? I’ve read 100 romance books in the past year and I don’t know how I feel about the feedback. If it is a romance book, romance readers probably wouldn’t agree with the feedback about making the meet cute unique. Meet cutes in a typical romance are not supposed to be realistic or crazy, at least not in a contemporary romance. You only need the emotion to be realistic, not the situation. If romances were realistic they wouldn’t really meet the average reader’s expectations. I recommend reading Romancing the Beat if you’re writing a typical romance book.

Can the important shift in perception be workable if it is a change in what the audience sees or perceives about a character or situation? I posed a question like that and Tim, you responded that you didn't think so but would need to see it. (Perhaps every bit of storytelling is just that, so you can't hinge on it. However, my tale has an emcee making asides to a live audience because it's a play. There are a a few dramatic rules and concepts that play out differently live, and perhaps my case is one.) Thanks for the great discussion and guidance, gentlemen.

I don’t want that guy reading my work. 😂

You could fix a cliche-or, you could lean into it by ending the scene like this: Louise sighed and read the words she'd scrawled on the slip of paper. "3/9/24. Asked for my number again. Still wearing the tie." She opened the register, lifted the clip in the section meant for 100-dollar bills, and slid the note onto the pile of other notes chronicling John's recovery. His long-term memory was still in shambles. But a little more came back every month. Slowly, painfully slowly. The doctors said it was like putting together pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Each memory had to be turned this way and that, tested, tried again until you found the spot and it snapped into place. But the way John had started looking at her in that confused way, turning back at the door as if he'd left something important behind, asking for her number-she dared to hope he was finally on the brink of remembering her. One day he'd walk in and Louise's piece would snap into place. Instead of Louise the friendly barista, he'd see Louise his former assistant, the one who'd given him that silly tie at the company Christmas party. He'd see Louise, the one he'd fallen in love with, Louise, the fiancée who still waited for him to remember.

I have left mostly critical comments on videos since I have found this channel, since I often found something to disagree with the techniques taught here. But this time I really have nothing to complain, and I thought I should leave a comment saying that so that positive feedback is also visible.

I'm curious if there was any glitterly little cloud that appeared to you before writing the scene that you then chased and nailed down and cobbled scaffolding around such that a proper scene emerged? I sound insane. But. Watch the video, which is a cool peek into the artistic process and if you are feeilng impatient, the 'cloud' is mentioned around 54 seconds in. Is it any of my business if there was a glitterly cloud? Sean's comment makes me think there wasn't. And that makes me wonder about the utility of practicing, versus working on a manuscript project directly. I'm usually okay if a cloud visits me. But I don't think it's alright to wait around for them. Yet sometimes I'm banging my head against the wall until one drops in. So. How do we write without waiting for the cloud? Taylor gets a lot of clouds. I get...fewer. If you would honor this with a response, that'd be so great. Intrusive, nosy question: was there a glimmery cloud? kzread.info/dash/bejne/h3mZuc-CpMrKqKQ.html

Hey Tim: It would be useful for me, to provide the text which Shawn is critiquing. Thanks,

@StoryGrid

3 ай бұрын

It’s a link in the description - Tim

Tim, when I researched romcoms (books) before writing mine, at least 25% had "insta-love" where one or both protagonists fell in love at first sight, BUT it was never in the first scene... their dissatisfying status quo situations were first established first and neither tells the other until much later. Look at Ann Aguirre's small-town "fix it witches" romances. In one of them, the guy meets the girl at a bakery that he runs. Summary from Amazon: Danica Waterhouse is a fully modern witch-daughter, granddaughter, cousin, and co-owner of the Fix-It Witches, a magical tech repair shop. After a messy breakup that included way too much family "feedback," Danica made a pact with her cousin: they'll keep their hearts protected and have fun, without involving any of the overly opinionated Waterhouse matriarchs. Danica is more than a little exhausted navigating a long-standing family feud where Gram thinks the only good mundane is a dead one and Danica's mother weaves floral crowns for anyone who crosses her path. Three blocks down from the Fix-It Witches, Titus Winnaker, owner of Sugar Daddy's bakery, has family trouble of his own. After a tragic loss, all he's got left is his sister, the bakery, and a lifetime of terrible luck in love. Sure, business is sweet, but he can't seem to shake the romantic curse that's left him past thirty and still a virgin. He's decided he's doomed to be forever alone. Until he meets Danica Waterhouse. The sparks are instant, their attraction irresistible. For him, she's the one. To her, he's a firebomb thrown in the middle of a family war. Can a modern witch find love with an old-fashioned mundane who refuses to settle for anything less than forever?

@ckeithray

3 ай бұрын

(ps: the real reason the 30-year old man is still a virgin isn't revealed until much later, maybe book 3 of the series, but there's a feud between witches and witch-finders to resolve along the way.

Good video. Personally, though, this is why I avoid structural edits. They are a thing, but they can also be unnecessary and work against the writing process.

Hmmm, what would be more painful? To pull the plaster off slowly or quickly?! Best wishes.

Reality is not entitled to anyone. Reality is disputed every day. And I think Quentin Tarantino once said: You can begin with a cliché, but never end with one.

What if the coffee shop is a front for a cult?

@StoryGrid

3 ай бұрын

Probably not in a love global genre story. - Tim

@scobrado

3 ай бұрын

​@@StoryGrid You're right. I would have difficulty writing romance without action or intrigue. Thanks for the pointers. Good luck!

Hard disagree with the feedback. The scene is written like a script, not a novel, so there's no interiority, so there's no character-internal driving force that guides the reader's desire. They have to like each other and show chemistry before we root for them. The moment of connection comes a bit late but is good, yet it comes after quite a bit of dialogue about coffee that's much too familiar for anyone to want to read. It's not a lack of conflict. It's the lack of character mind.

I think having a meet cute is fine. Depends on who your audience is. For me, the scene feels bland; nothing of note is happening. I am getting no insight into John, who I am assuming is the protagonist, and I have no idea why John is interested in Louise or why she is interested in him. I couldn't distinguish any particular romantic interest from her; she just seems like a chatty person who strikes up conversation with everyone and tries to get to know them.

Your reader is a bit AI. Lover meets girl, tension, lover loses girl, lover is messed up, lover loses girl, lover finds girl, lover is “fixed” by girl, lover gets girl get back and live HEA. That’s old bull crap. Editors think there must be drama in a relationship. It’s not true. True love is boring, but feels good. Drama comes from the outside and tests true love.

That WAS brutal. It was also more than a little pretentious. Does not make me want to get on the "Story Grid" train. While there was some merit to what Coyne said, some tips were valid... the whole formulaic approach to a scene is off-putting. Does it really need to be that cookie-cutter in all cases? Does there really need to be a tornado in every coffee shop? Has he ever read David Foster-Wallace? Or James Joyce, for crying out loud. Or William Gibson (no relation)? I'd call this anti-marketing for Story Grid. That said, I do like and appreciate Tim's videos. They always make me think things through.

@StoryGrid

3 ай бұрын

The 1 Lie Every Writer Falls For kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZXuXtZaApta1krA.html - Tim

@taewoods2034

3 ай бұрын

Lol you think this was brutal writing advice? He seemed pretty nice to me. It's funny to me how people think this is "Brutal" writing advice. He was just telling him what he thinks was wrong with the story. And he complimented the scene multiple times. 😂

@bradgibson1238

3 ай бұрын

@@taewoods2034 see title of video 🙄

Dude, I cannot take you seriously when you call Ready Player One and The Hunger Games "Masterworks"... it's good that you're doing this though, because it shows a genuine interest in creating good work. But first you have to develop some critical and objective perspective into what quality even is. You're operating on a like/dislike axis still.

@nocturne3455

3 ай бұрын

In a previous video he made it clear the definition of a masterwork is a very popular best seller or world famous work, which Ready Player One is even though it's hot garbage. I think it's more of his personal definition.

@DanLyndon

3 ай бұрын

​@@nocturne3455 Again, this is why you need standards, not just going by stuff you like that happens to be popular. If RP1 can truly stand the test of time, it will still be read in 150+ years. Will it be, or is it all just based on 80s nostalgia? Obviously the latter. Not even the most famous works that book references will be relevant 50 years after it came out. It is also rare for truly great novels to ever become bestsellers. Almost every best seller ever written is mediocre or worse, because by definition it has to appeal to the lowest common denominator. But nor do best sellers last very long either, because they are interchangeable. Great literature is always going to be less popular but more enduring.

@c.michlschneider3928

3 ай бұрын

@@DanLyndonThere is an issue with this logic, which is that readers’ tastes have shifted dramatically in the last 100 years. If that is ignored, then the writer will be very unlikely sell their work. While I personally don’t care much for either title you’ve mentioned, the fact remains that both sold well and THG is pretty well written for its target audience. If we only look at the “Great American Novel” for guidance, we’ll miss what made those works great.

@DanLyndon

3 ай бұрын

@@c.michlschneider3928 Nothing guarantees a bestseller except tons of highly targeted marketing. Otherwise it's luck. You have to know what quality is. Masterworks don't die when tastes change, are ahead of their time, and completely irreplaceable.

@daniellarsen734

3 ай бұрын

@@DanLyndon If a novel doesn’t become a bestseller, by definition, that’s not a good novel. Nope. He has it right. Hunger Games, Ready Player One are masterworks? Why? Because people actually read them and has shaped modern fiction.

I really enjoyed this - maybe the coffee shop should get robbed, or burn down? Or may be there is an interesting view - where a ship crashed or a bank is robbed? Something that pulls two people together in the experience, yet they have conflicting points of view? Also, is this a seduction scene? Does the scene end with a kiss? (As opposed to a negotiation or argument. I am doing an argument scene, and using strategies such as: Escalation triggers: When does a rational talk become a full-blown argument? It is triggered by an event/hot button, transforming a lively conversation into a heated debate. (Pushing someone’s buttons. To do specific things to anger someone- especially intentionally or maliciously - yet not always.) • harsh start up, going on the attack, badgering/nagging, criticism. • name calling, contemptuous comments, contradicting or belittling the other. • disrespectful comments or gestures, unloving gestures, rudeness. • globalization (exaggerating the offense), bringing up old wounds. • defensiveness, denying the issue or responsibility. • stonewalling, refusing to engage, walking out, withdrawing, indifference. • rejecting repair attempts, resisting attempts to de-escalate the argument. • not listening properly, ignoring the other, or switching off: apathy. • angry outbursts, real or threatened violence, threats of punishment, or ultimatums. Thanks so much for sharing - Tim & Shawn A great example that you have here - we can apply to other scenes.