It was Molly. Hell harh no fury as a woman scorned

@justaayan2

7 ай бұрын

I love how this was made 3 hours ago and has a pin

@Billy_the-cat

7 ай бұрын

​@@justaayan2wow

@CornholioPuppetMaster

7 ай бұрын

It was Abigail, she did it to protect her family

@StacieMMeier

7 ай бұрын

No, it wasnt. The Agent admits they attempted to get her to talk, and she refused. Since she was already dead, he had no reason to lie to Arthur (A note here many miss, the Pinkertons werent really after Arthur, they were Dutch though). Rockstar put Molly plot in to fool everyone. Miach did indeed betray them. The best hint he did, he was locked up and after they escape he attempts to make Arthur join him. He even hints here that something bad likely happen in the future. However... two other members likely could have. One had a motive and the other we see later, in game, if you think on it. First- Abigail. Reason: Family. Second and most likely: Sadie. Reason: we see it later, she becomes a bounty hunter. We have to ask, why would Pinkertons allow someone who had killed many of their members, and the answer is they wouldnt. She made the deal (Likely she made it, very early, before she became more accepted into the gang. This explains why she became more brave, she knew they wouldnt try to kill her.) and they allowed her to become a Bounty Hunter, it is also how she knew how to locate Miach, because one of them told her, the general area, although not the exact location. Sadie is a very likely rat. Rockstar though makes you think she wouldnt be, in the end...she was. EDIT: Adding one here: John betrayed them. Well Dutch anyways. My opinion is he did it to get back at Dutch, this explains why Pinkertons weren't really after Arthur. It also fills in some plot holes in RDR1.He was also missing at times during RDR2 if you ever notice.

@MicahBell_1860

7 ай бұрын

Wait@@StacieMMeier !!! You actually would believe anything the Pinkertons say??? Wow!!!

The game is out for five years and we still aren't sure about who the real rat is. We said it was micah for years yet we still debate about it. That's how we know that the story is amazing. Rockstar's writing is just unmatched

@ochayethenoo

7 ай бұрын

Idiots debate it. Micah is the rat.

@Razgriz85

7 ай бұрын

Rockstar's writing back in the day, but they've dropped in quality, and won't even update or add DLC to Red Dead 2, but will throw a bunch to trash in GTAV multiplayer.

@felixslayer1583

7 ай бұрын

@Razgriz85 well. Writing in both online expansions is weak compared to the stories of the games.

@arthurmorgan2026

7 ай бұрын

​@@felixslayer1583different teams no? Also the Devs and writers have more control over story stuff as opposed to online where it's doing what pays the most. If they had the reigns -- the writers and game designers that is -- online would be awesome. Just like the blizzard acquisition by Microsoft they don't have to listen to the suits telling them what to say and do etc, they can focus on appeasing players and making content fun/ acceptable. Any company owned by a greedy company will make lazy (money driven) content, the devs themselves don't want it to be the case but it's an unfortunate reality.

@pyroAdapt

7 ай бұрын

I have more of a negative view of that tbh. I think it's dumb that people act like it's a mystery still. It's very clear it's micah and not just because Milton out right says it so I roll my eyes when I see yet another video with this title. It's just treading on old territory

One thing that LITERALLY EVERYONE seems to forget is that during the credits to the game you see Edgar Ross go to the mountain where you killed Micah. There is absolutely no other reason for him going up there, they wouldn't have heard the gunfight it's in the Snowy Mountains. And no it could not be from him following John all the way from Strawberry. When you kill Cleet (hanging or letting Sadie shoot him) the crowd there say "good riddance" so none of them would've ran to the Pinkertons. Why would Edgar Ross have gone all the way up that mountain? Did he just want to hike and see snow? No he went up there cos Micah was up there. And the Reason Micah doesn't turn Dutch over immediately is because he's Greedy and he wants to get all of Dutch's money before betraying him.

@snxffys6436

7 ай бұрын

you forget the part where it was implied the pinkertons were looking for john. they start from valentine getting info on john and/or sadie, blackwater and the works. how they figured out who was on the mountain shouldn’t be surprising since everyone present heard Cleet mention where micah was. Mount Hagen isn’t exactly tucked away. my guess is they’d either kill john and sadie up there or convince them to hunt down bill and javier.

@DirtySoulsTV

7 ай бұрын

@@snxffys6436 wait where were the implications? I remember the Mail guy but that was the brother of the Roanoke dude he shot. And I guess the telling the Banker his name would've painted a target on him that's fair. But then if Abigail was the rat why would they have to kidnap her for RDR1?

@snxffys6436

7 ай бұрын

@@DirtySoulsTV epilogue cutscenes show them going to places john and sadie were at, valentine, outside rhodes, strawberry i think. i also don’t believe the abigail bit. micah was always a prick regardless of their situation and seeing how bloody the end got im not surprised if the pinkertons just followed them back to camp. and micah going back to kill arthur doesn’t make sense, dude would’ve just taken the cash

@DirtySoulsTV

7 ай бұрын

@@snxffys6436 Micah going to kill Arthur could be because Dutch wanted to go after them. I remember a comment on some other video that said "it doesn't matter who the rat was, the gang had gotten sloppy enough that they wouldn't have needed a rat" and I think that's pretty believable

@snxffys6436

7 ай бұрын

@@DirtySoulsTV honestly, the guy who’s most likely to be the rat being the rat would be a bummer

There are several clues throughout the game that hints at Micah being the rat. When we first move camp , he suggested a ravine that was hard to defend and where the gang could be ambushed easily. If you search his camp north of Strawberry, there's a scrap of paper detailing the Blackwater heist. If the gang had camped there he probably would have turned rat then. As Arthur said "We got sloppy" . Before Guarma there was probably no rat. After Micah was picked up when he got back was when he turned completely. After the fight with Arthur, when Dutch shows up, he wants Dutch to follow him bavk down the path where the Pinkertons are waiting (remember you were just holding them off as they were coming from that direction)

@smokinjoe4709

7 ай бұрын

There was a rat from before the game even started. The boat job was a setup.

@bigsmilereviews100

7 ай бұрын

@@smokinjoe4709 One of the main themes of the game was the increased reach and power of law enforcement as the Wild West died out. Not just local law enforcement but now there was state and even federal agencies. No more could you murder tons of people, move a couple hundred miles and be forgotten about. There isn’t anywhere to hide anymore. They knew who the gang were and built a profile on them. The Blackwater robbery was probably just that. Pinkertons knew that if not Dutch, someone else might try to rob hundreds of thousands of dollars coming in by boat and were anticipating it.

@TheWilku22

7 ай бұрын

​@@bigsmilereviews100true. Their downfall was a combination of: Dutch sucking as leader, Micah being a rat and what you said - better law enforcement. Sooner or later, Micah or not, their gang would get destroyed. Also, let's not forget Pinkertons found them even without Micah's help. There was no way they could survive

@jamesgordon9825

7 ай бұрын

@@TheWilku22I like to think of Micah and the ferry job as an example of how Dutch ended up damning the gang as well. Dutch lets this vile man into the gang because he massages his ego. He then decided to pull an incredibly dangerous job in a populated city based on the recommendation of said vile man. Meanwhile, Dutch’s most trusted friends are working on something that would keep them out of trouble and make loads of cash. He decides to go with the former of course.

@bigsmilereviews100

7 ай бұрын

@@jamesgordon9825 Right. Also because Dutch didn’t want a happy ever after ending. Notice he decided against buying land when the gang was settled near Blackwater. His plan wasn’t to retire and live on a ranch with his family after making so many thousands of dollars. His plan was to continue this war against the industrialists and tycoons of the era. It’s exactly what Uncle said, he wanted an army of knights to serve their king.

Micah WAS the rat. In the final scene: *Arthur* "You're a rat" *Micah* "I'm a survivor, black lung!! A SURVIVOR!! That's all there is! Livin' and dyin'!" Micah didn't deny it.. He justified it.

Yes, Micha was the rat. Milton confirmed it. Heck, Rockstar even added a rat running across Micha's camp when John goes to confront him, just a little nod to the truth.

@jamesgordon9825

7 ай бұрын

Yep. I can't believe people are still talking about this. There shouldn't be an ounce of doubt that Micah was the rat. They spell it out for you numerous times.

@sangun123

7 ай бұрын

Lmfao for real, like they’re pretty explicit about Micah being the rat, his hideout by strawberry literally has dutches wanted poster in it

@jamesgordon9825

7 ай бұрын

@@sangun123 people just like to make stuff up I guess. Maybe this is why rockstar should add dlc to keep these people at bay!😂

@gunfugames7430

6 ай бұрын

Why they killed molly than? Just overdramatic senseless death?

@dogeshow2651

6 ай бұрын

He isn’t dummy

For me to believe that micah is not a rat, two things must be proved 1:agent Moron was lying 2: the rat at the top of the mountain is not a simbolism for micah being the rat

@joegibbskins

6 ай бұрын

The agents immediately investigating Micah’s death and going to John’s house also makes it seem like Micah was a rat. You murder people all over the map the entire game and the feds don’t track you down, but you kill human garbage in the middle of the mountains and they are suddenly hot on your tail. Micah was important to them

@WanderingIdiot81

6 ай бұрын

The Rat was a symbol of Pete Buttigieg

@CREESTAFAH

6 ай бұрын

Agent Moron lmao

@mekmekoo1269

6 ай бұрын

Are either of those two claims so hard to believe?

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

Its actually not hard to do at all. 1. Milton's motivation throughout the game has been about breaking the gang apart rather than individual members, there is no reason to kill Arthur there since he was dying anyway. The most logical thing to do there with Milton's motivation in mind is to send him back and break the gang apart from the inside, which btw was exactly what happened even after his accidental death. Milton brought the rat topic up himself, and he never even mentioned killing Arthur, he just held all three of them at gun point and talking until Arthur jumped him (even then he didn't pull the trigger) 2. Normally I prefer facts over symbolism, but in this case the rat was running through when John showed up, if you look at in game actions, John is far more likely being the rat than Micah. He was arrested instead of shot, and unlike any other gang members got caught John was just casually working in a chain gang instead of being tortured to death for info. Hell, he even walked back with a Pinkerton assault squad in the end lol If you take rdr 1 into consideration, he was proven by in game action that would work with Pinkerton for his own sake.

Abigail has been abducted by the Pinkertons on Micah's orders, because he wanted Arthur and John away. The Pinkertons conveniently captured her while the gang was in a middle of a train robbery, and I don't think that's a coincidence at all. More importantly, it's a robbery that Micah PLANNED.

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

lol Abigail was there willingly in exchange of letting her son to get away. Micah literally said “she’s just a girl, it’s just a bait” which is precisely why Pinkerton wanted her, otherwise she’s just a girl “chopping vegetables for a living”. Micah’s train job was actually very smooth, besides John being shot by some random dude. Its a logical fallacy to try to fit everything into a Micah rat narrative.

@AlexandreBardin

7 ай бұрын

@@kaydens6964 Micah has "been a good boy ever since" the Pinkertons picked him up after Guarma, according to Milton (who has no reason to tell a lie since he has Arthur at his mercy).

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

@@AlexandreBardin not true, there is no reason for Milton to kill Arthur there, it doesn’t even need plot armor. It was revealed to Milton that Arthur was dying anyway, his character motivation has always been about breaking the gang apart instead of going after individual members. They are also law enforcement, he didn’t even kill Sadie who was just tied up and listening. The gang was broken apart even after his death. Really, don’t try to fit a narrative, you can do it to any gang member to be the rat. Cornwall mission is the direct proof that what Milton said was a lie, the game made it very clear that the only ppl know about the mission is Dutch and Micah, they only revealed their intention to Arthur upon his arrival, so Abigail has no idea about it. The mission went as smooth as possible for its profile right underneath Pinkerton knows, remember Cornwall was the one paying Pinkerton bills. He was also above the law to grant pardon in addition to money reward if Micah set up Dutch for him there. Like this is the most sensical thing to do in the entire game if Micah was a rat like Milton said after the Caribbean.

@maykonbrasileiro761

7 ай бұрын

​@@kaydens6964cant believe rat defenders like you actualy exist 😂😂

@agirlinabasementofyourdaddy

6 ай бұрын

@@kaydens6964man, Micah telling the Pinkertons to kid*ap Abigail would make a perfect sense. All he needed to say was “she was the one with Hosea to plan the distraction is SD bank heist.” And that Abigail is john’s wife (the same john that escaped sisika) and mother of his kid. She is actually a perfect bait cause Micah just KNEW John and Arthur would go immediately to get her back.

I would think if John & Abigail were the snitch, it would have been talked about at some point during RDR1. In the chapter 3 mission where Arthur gets kidnapped by Colm, that whole thing from the start was set up by Micah, it seems to me like Micah was conspiring with Colm to split the reward they got for Dutch. No proof other than how badly Micah wanted it to happen as he was convincing everyone, laying out the plan, and having Arthur be up on the hill with a sniper rifle, then Colm's men knew right where Arthur was.

@kaydens6964

5 ай бұрын

And let Dutch walk away? You know after Arthur was kidnapped Micah was the only one left on Dutch’s side right? Micah was probably the most royal member towards Dutch in the gang from the beginning to the end.

@Scarlet_moon.

5 ай бұрын

@@kaydens6964Micah wanted to replace Arthur so he gets full trust of Dutch,because his main goal wasn't bounty but their stash,Dutch had large amount of money hidden away.You can see him disappointed when Arthur returns,he was at that time still on the fence about betrayal but he turned after Guarma as you see his face change while Dutch was speaking nonsense.

@kaydens6964

5 ай бұрын

@@Scarlet_moon. This is all you speculation, there is no in game action proof. What happened is Arthur got kidnapped and Micah secured Dutch’s exit. Colm literally confessed his entire plan. There is no evidence of Micah ever betrayed Dutch even including the end of epilogue. Abigail was the one that actually located Dutch’s stash with a key if you are interested about that.

@Scarlet_moon.

5 ай бұрын

@@kaydens6964 when Arthur got kidnapped Micah goal wasn't Dutch but Arthur,he wanted to get rid of him,Micah was fine with Dutch before Guarma thats when he decided to betray him. If you go to Micah camp near Strawbarry there is paper about van der Linde bounty. Rockstar wasn't really subtle with hints about Micah being rat.

@kaydens6964

5 ай бұрын

@@Scarlet_moon. Remember its not about what Micah wanted as a rat, it was Colm, there is no way Colm let Dutch walk out of there lol The Dutch wanted bounty was old, you can tell from its amount. Micah heard about him and admired him, this is evident throughout the game, he needed a picture to find him and join the gang since its not like everyone's face is a google away those days.

Micah and Dutch wasnt together all that time after in the epilogue. On the end of the American Venom last mission when John ask Dutch what does he doing there Micah said: "Dutch and I are teaming up once more" which refers to that they not been together while Micah was killing and raping innocent people around. So that option that Micah just could rat out Dutch any time is out of the window. The game literally tells us that Micah is a rat. Even Micah tells us that hes a rat when he attacked Arthur and Arthur calls him a rat, Micah said:"Im a survivor black lung"...referring to that he indeed is a rat. So Micah is a rat.

The reason why the O'drisscols appear to ambush Arthur and Micah during the stagecoach robbery is because Micah got the information from the O'Drisscol in the strawberry jail cell who told him the gang's plan and that they rob it often. Micah and Arthur stupidly rode into the trap the O'Drisscols already had set up to rob the stagecoach.

I don't think Micah and Dutch were together during that time gap. I could be wrong though. Dutch left right before Arthur died and no matter how your honor level is Micah goes the opposite way. They even talk about how Micah was spotted but no mention of Dutch being with him. I'm very positive Dutch and Micah had reconnected recently to collect the Blackwater money

@kylerees3491

7 ай бұрын

Yeah that's why Micah said "all manner of folks paying social calls"

@JumelCouto

7 ай бұрын

Its a fact they were not together. Micah says in the mountain when dutch appears “me and dutch are working together once more…”. That implies they just recently met at the mountain to work again. Plus Micah has his own crew as cleet says. Dutch would have been the leader, not Micah.

@nobilisartorivs

5 ай бұрын

the time gap could be a great epilogue for rdr3

@mickmockedmack

5 ай бұрын

Not just that, but when John asks Dutch what he's doing here, Dutch says "oh, same as you I suppose." John was there to kill Micah. I'm pretty sure Dutch was there to kill Micah too when the time was right for his betrayal.

Okay here's why I think you're wrong (respectfully) Micah Bell was picked up after Guarma. It was going terrible for the gang and Micah isn't stupid, he knew it was coming to an end. Thats why he claimed to be "a survivor" because he made a deal to spare his life in exchange for dutch and the gang. Also Dutch never spent all those years with Micah after the main story, he had only recently caught up with him. Plus he got angry af when Dutch went without him because he was desperate to get Dutch to go with him into a trap for the Pinkertons to grab him

@STPstudio47

6 ай бұрын

That wouldn't make sense at all because Micah's main goal is to get the money from blackwater, and only dutch knows where it's hidden. That's why he's mad

@METALGEARMATRIX

6 ай бұрын

I think that even before then Micah was working against the gang, driving up their bounties until he could get his hands on the Blackwater money and cash in on the bounties

@Pamel3216

2 ай бұрын

Why wouldn’t Micah just hogtie Dutch or knock him out that shit doesn’t make sense if he really wanted to turn Dutch in he could’ve multiple times through the game not just on top of that mountain

@freefallmatter

Ай бұрын

​@@Pamel3216 knowing his character he just wanted to play both sides i guess. Blackwater had 150k laying around and having dutch means micah can easily go in there get the money and turn in dutch that's why he was so mad when dutch decides to abandon him at the end. Micah's character is more or less a coward but he has good manipulation skills despite that he doesn't operate alone. Like other bounty hunters in the game. My theory is he was a rat from the beginning ever since the blackwater job. And sinc Pinkertons had a. Gang member on their side they too wouldn't go against Micah 's plans if it meant putting an end to the VDL gang

why does uncle have a hammer and sickle on his head

@ontemnaojantei

7 ай бұрын

I was looking for this exact comment

@imonit1177

7 ай бұрын

They always talk about what a lazy bastard he is. He says he hates work. In his youth he was know as the one shot kid, so obviously he was a gun slinger. He always begs for money from other gang members. He mooched off of John in his old age. Makes since he might be a commi.

@arthurmorgan8529

7 ай бұрын

​@@imonit1177very fair points. Commies are up there with ringworm and rats with the plague when it comes to parasites

Micah being the rat makes no sense. he was actually the most commited to Dutch, so to snitch on Dutch makes no sense

One thing doesn't make sense for Abigail being the rat is why did she stay with the gang when John left for year she didn't know if he was ever coming back.

@Pamel3216

2 ай бұрын

Because when you’re a federal informant you don’t have free will 😂😂😂😂😂

@th3_sat3n52

20 күн бұрын

Free d

Pretty sure we established Micah to be the rat...he had Dutch's wanted poster in his camp and the Pinkerton man also mentions how he would meet with micah

@gaxy1969

7 ай бұрын

agreed

@themaddogofcrenshaw7367

7 ай бұрын

​@@gaxy1969Still doesn't answer the point that was made early in the video. If that was the case why didn't Micah turn Dutch in when he had more than enough opportunities to do that?

@soghodlyprince8650

6 ай бұрын

@@themaddogofcrenshaw7367 because micah is greedy so he wanted all of dutch’s money before he turned him in

@themaddogofcrenshaw7367

6 ай бұрын

@@soghodlyprince8650 Micah already knew where all of the gangs money was. Micah could've turned Dutch in or killed him early on if he truly wanted to and had a easier time taking the money for himself if that was the case

@chokomaru5465

6 ай бұрын

@@themaddogofcrenshaw7367 but micah didnt know where the blackwater money was

Despite all that, i still believe he's the rat. Milton didn't had any reason to lie to Arthur when he told him, when you think about it. He thought Arthur would die right here and there, and delivered one last low blow before shooting him, revealing they've all been deceived this whole time.

@officialconch

7 ай бұрын

Milton doesn’t know how much we (Arthur) dislike Micah. He said it to throw off Sadie who would presumably witness Arthur’s death, know John was likely dead, and now see Micah as a “rat”. All of the most powerful members of the group would be unable to save her. Leaving her with no option than to strike a deal and help Abigail turn in Dutch.

@Regis1603

7 ай бұрын

@@officialconch The "low blow" wasn't about revealing "Micah, the guy we hate" is indeed a rat, but rather about : "Micah, one of them, is a rat".

@mrepical7235

7 ай бұрын

Thats what im saying, milton had nothing to gain when he told arthur who it really was, not to mention micah drew first when he realised arthur knew what he did

@insertnamehere313

7 ай бұрын

​@@officialconchthat's the most ridiculous theory I've heard.

@officialconch

7 ай бұрын

@@insertnamehere313 lol

I think Micah was a rat. But that doesn’t mean there wasn’t possibly another rat or other RATS. I like the theory that Abigail was a rat. It makes a lot of sense to me

@GardG4m3r

4 ай бұрын

Or maybe John cause even if arthur died by high honor John chase him maybe bc they are both rats

Probably more than 1 rat, since they'd want Micah to find out where Dutch was keeping the money he hid in Blackwater.

So, here's something I just realized today. I started my first playthrough since 2020 a few days ago. I'm still at horseshoe overlook, mostly just doing challenges, exploring, gearing up, taking it slow. I still haven't gone to strawberry to bust Micah out. I did, however, just rob the train in Rhodes with John, Charles, and Sean. Arthur is quite sure it was a setup yet, Micah knew nothing about it 😮.... I've logged 1500 hours on this game and just today was the first time I thought someone besides Micah could be the rat! What an incredible game 😅

@RantingMonkey

6 ай бұрын

John is the one who asks if it was a set up and Arthur says "I don't think so."

@evrgrn7518

3 ай бұрын

@@RantingMonkey Yes. Then Arthur admits to Dutch that the law was quick, maybe too quick, to react and that something might have been off about it.

Randomly, I was thinking who the rat was. Then, it occurred to me that it had to be John Marston. *Who was the last to show up at camp before the Pinkertons showed up. *At the end, the two Pinkerton agents said (should we grab him now) * RDR1 John was working for the government when hunting down the last gang members. * When John captured or killed the gang members, he acted a little distant from them.

@Kingsaxxy3872

Ай бұрын

I mean, all 3 of those members pulled their guns on him and Arthur and left them for dead. Can’t blame him for being a bit distant.

While I do believe that Abigail is a possible rat, wasn't it Cornwall's men in Valentine not Milton's that captured John, so the feigning ignorance could've been legitimate. I have to replay that part in the story, I believe it's right after the events of "The Sheep and the Goats"

@christopherkimber7679

7 ай бұрын

Huh? Which part are you talking about? Do you mean those that arrested Micah? Because I’m pretty sure the Pinkertons arrested John in San Denis.

@CornholioPuppetMaster

7 ай бұрын

Those are 2 different missions. Cornwall approaches them in valentine in chapter 2 but Milton and the pinkertons approach the gang at Saint Denis bank in chapter 4. They arrested Micah in strawberry in chapter 2 so maybe they turned him there but those were local lawmen not pinkertons

@sah1634

7 ай бұрын

@christopherkimber7679 My comment was more focused on the fact that the creator mentioned that Milton feigned ignorance after The Sheep and Goats mission. 8:42. While I do know about what you mentioned in chapter 4 this was before that I believe.

Since my 2nd play I think it's John. 1: when Milton speaks to Arthur by the lake he says "orphan Street kidS" plural 2: when the Pinkertons appear at camp Milton pretends to not know John 3: John and Abigail some how disappear and survive when others were killed without question

@tjcthulhu

5 ай бұрын

for #3, you gotta remember this is a prequel, so they HAD to make John survive. maybe if this was the actual first game, they would’ve added more onto how John got away, or maybe he wouldn’t have at all.

@danteferraro9842

3 ай бұрын

same i think the same

I always thought Micah ratted them for his own greed to disband most of the gang and get bigger share from the Blackwater money. That was also why he adored and licked Dutch's ego and stayed with him all those years. Just for the money, simple as that. Men's primal sin, hence the American venom - greed. Dutch knew it in the end, so he shot him. But this video is nice, seeing with what seemingly legit theories you can come up with in this great story.

John was "spared the noose" because he needs to survive to be in RDR 1.

Dutch. It was Dutch. He was making deals and giving away his own men from the start in exchange for his own freedom. Milton even tells him "no more deals" . And who else has so many details about every single operation that Dutch plans? Cause he liked to keep everything "mysterious" from the gang (Arthur even comments on how mysterious works for Dutch but not Micah). Who made it out of EVERYTHING with no legal repercussions, despite being the face and mind of the gang? And I'm supposed to believe that Sadie could track him down, but the Pinkertons couldn't? Kinda seems more like the Dutch we see in 1 is the same shifty piece of trash that will sell out the two men who he supposedly sees as sons for a little extra freedom?

@joshuapittman4663

7 ай бұрын

The no more deals thing was because he offered Dutch and the gang a deal for their freedom if they turned him in.

@garrettvance4686

7 ай бұрын

@@joshuapittman4663 i concede that as a possibility, but i think it's more likely that Dutch was always the treacherous dog we knew in rdr1 and he just stopped hiding it

@garrettvance4686

7 ай бұрын

@@joshuapittman4663 and realistically, how else was he getting away with ANYTHING? One thing we see as a recurring theme throughout all of 2 is that Dutch and the entire gang are bad at crime. Like how often did Dutch refer to Arthur by both first and last name during crimes when they're supposed to be disguised? He's a really, really stupid criminal. He wasn't getting by on skill. More likely he'd been making deals from the same time that the pinkertons first started "hunting" them before the events of the game, likely to use them to flush out the far larger and more influential O'Driscoll gang, which did in fact happen. Dutch being used in a deal to draw it O'Driscolls would also explain why they just walked into the O'Driscoll ambush. Dutch was instructed to cause Colm to make himself known. Then after he outlived his "usefulness" the pinkertons started using someone else in his gang against him. And then eventually Micah became... Well, dead, and they shifted their sights to John. I'm also endorsing the theory that Micah internationally made his presence known in order to draw out the remnants of the old gang, which would explain why everybody but the damn Pinkertons figured out where Micah was and managed to get to him. From there they figured out where John was and eventually started using him

@eastsidereviews727

6 ай бұрын

This does have some basis in reality. James "Whitey" Bulger, famous Irish-Boston crime lord was an FBI informant for years while he was doing all sorts of dirt. It is possible something like this could've happened with Dutch.

There is only one person among the gang can be a rat, and it’s not Micah or John. The rat must have a strong motive The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan The rat must have access to detailed robbery information The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns, and jack was never present at the camp during sudden Pinkerton busts She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery. She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario. Edit: just one small detail, Micah was among the highest money donor besides Arthur who has no money problem, and Abigail never donated a cent.

@UNKNOWNGODXXX

7 ай бұрын

Plus, how'd Milton know where to find Arthur specifically in C1? Because that lake was real close to camp.... Abigail must've told him before hand since she was the one that told Arthur to take Jack fishing and KNEW that Arthur would NOT act violently while being with Jack, a perfect meeting ground... only it didn't go according to plan because Arthur wasn't a traitor or maybe it did, because Arthur would tell Dutch and it would've made Dutch feel the pressure of being hunted and betrayed, feeding into his paranoia therefore making him take risky and mistaken actions... the beginning of the end

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

@@UNKNOWNGODXXX Yeah, that too. If you do a playthrough and give Micah benefit of the doubt( Lets face it, Arthur showed up accusing of him being a rat based on nothing but Milton's words, its kinda ridiculous if you really think about it) There are people way more suspicious than him, John for example.

@felixslayer1583

7 ай бұрын

​@UNKNOWNGODXXX there is one thing I wanna point out. Abigail didn't ask arthur to go fishing with Jack SPECIFICALLY. She only asked him if he could do something with Jack. However after they return, she immediately asks him if something wrong. And arthur wasn't directly obvious either. Maybe that's the reason Milton didn't strike the gang immediately despite him being very close to the camp.

@Cyaeghax

7 ай бұрын

During the shady belle assault of pinkertons where kieran dies jack and abigail were there during the shooting

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

@@Cyaeghax this actually further proves that she is the rat. Because Kieran died to the odriscolls and the following gun fight was against them not the Pinkerton which she had no prior knowledge of.

Dutch wasn't with micah all those years dutch just got to that mountain listen to dutchs diologue

One thing I rarely see people bring up is that there doesn’t need to be a rat. One thing Arthur says is that they got sloppier than the town drunk. They shot up valentine, Rhodes, Saint Denis, annesburg. And they left a pile of bodies behind them. It wouldn’t be that hard to predict their next move if they had one or two Pinkertons following them. Maybe that’s how they were found out when Arthur came back from guarma. Not because bill was followed, but because they had a single Pinkerton spying on them and simply were waiting for the rest of the gang to return. To add on, almost every single one of their hideouts was discovered. Horseshoe overlook, the one in Rhodes, shady bell, annesburg. A scout who followed them everywhere they went is the most likely theory rather than a rat.

When you talk to Bill Williamson in Beaver Hollow there is a chance that he'll say to arthur that he suspects that john is a traitor

I believe it was Abigail because she had jack and plus John wasn’t getting killed

If you don't know it was Micah, you are a fool. There is nothing compelling about the case for Micahs innocence. Micah was an opportunist. He played everyone any chance he got for whatever he could get out of them. There is nothing puzzling about his early niceties, he had to get in with the gang.

2:20 I just want to point out a significant oversight in the video. Dutch was not Micah's companion. He had recently arrived, most likely to kill him too. Micah says something along the lines of "All manner of folk paying social calls" Dutch then comes out and when John asks what's he doing there, Dutch replies "Same as you, I suppose" 9:17 It's also worth noting that the people who held John and Strauss at gunpoint in Valentine were not Pinkertons, just Cornwall's goons. I mean, come on, Milton isn't even there. 14:20 and... why would she? If she had a deal with Milton the best outcome for her would be him killing Arthur. That was the explanation I was waiting for the most.

@reginaldstacy7250

7 ай бұрын

Well they went through the trouble of kidnapping Abigail without any intent to kill her. They used her to lure in the gang and she PROBABLY could have snitched as a deal in an attempt to make sure John was safe. And about the killing Milton part, she could’ve killed him because she genuinely cared for Arthur. Either that or to make sure the truth doesn’t get out

But when arthur is fighting with micah and confront him calling him as ratt, micah said that he is a surviver... He confess to arthur. And i believe that micah contacts ross in 1907 betraying Dutch again, thats how ross find out about the hiden in the mountains.

@basedelon

5 ай бұрын

I'm sure someone alrted the Law when they noticed a trail of 30 or so dead bodies going up a mountain.

@ItzVoyager

4 ай бұрын

@@basedelon and why would ross track down who killed micah? I'm pretty sure he would just assume it was a gang shooting. Unless he was working with micah to track down the gang members starting with dutch

@ItzVoyager

4 ай бұрын

@@basedelon not to mention when they for some reason tracked down micah's killer and found out it was john they made him track down the other gang members to replace micah

The fact that John took the Surname "Milton" as a disguise in the epilogue always seemed sus.

@Sting575

7 ай бұрын

I found it hillarious

@jamesgordon9825

7 ай бұрын

How the fuck have I never connected this?😂

I think Micah is the rat. He has a reward poster for Dutch in his camp near Strawberry. He was probably working with Colm O'Driscol during the fake truce. In fact Colm's plot plays out pretty similar to the confrontation at Beaver Hollow. Also Micah pretty much admits to Arthur during their fight, he'll do whatever it takes to survive. Rockstar did do an amazing job leaving just enough suspicion on others to make you have doubts though.

I was thinking Trelawny or Swanson, Trelawny is always absent, and would easily turn on them, he also left when things started to go down and Pinkertons knew the gang's hideout afterwards. Swanson at chapter 6 was irritated with Dutch and didn't want to follow him then tried to warn the gang and told them to leave before he goes and sell them out, also he's changed and his new morals might have led him to turn Dutch to the law as he sees him as evil now.

@cheekibreeki921

Ай бұрын

This could check out, given Trelawny has his own family, living in St. Denis. Swanson I'm not sure about

“Micah was the rat *cough* Milton told me”

When you think about this take too: Micah never admitted to ratting out. Even when he and Arthur were in their last fight in any ending, he not once said he had done it. I’m not saying Micah WASNT a rat but I just think that is really interesting to think about

@Matt_History

7 ай бұрын

People who are called out almost never come clean. A person as narcissistic and violent as Micha would far more likely lash out than admit anything

I'm also wondering if Micah didn't also tell the O'Driscoll's what Sniper perch you'd be on as Arthur when you are kidnapped by them they knew EXACTLY where you were and who told you where to go MICAH .... Micah was the rat

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

If Micah was the rat, there is no way Dutch walked away from that meeting with Colm. The odriscolls had four men on horseback as you approach the meeting point, all they needed to do was one of those follow without being detected, secretly knock out mission.

Thinking about it. When John was injured and not able to communicate with outside sources, the train heist went perfectly. As soon as he's up and running they get surrounded at every turn.

It could’ve been the unknown gang member. A chore handler who worked as someone who does work for the camp and must only stay in camp out of some motive if Susan Grimshaw wasn’t around to remind people to keep their camp sites clean and such. The only time to leave was when they need to go to town for mail and groceries. Decided to mask his rat motive and possible Pinkerton undercover background and decides to use some gang members as patsies. Abigail. For being a caring mother. Micah Bell. For being a hot head who didn’t wanted to be in the gang. Having a sour personality that everyone hates. And being very relatable to Dutch to the point he becomes second over Arthur. John. Because he was gone for a year and must use John to keep Arthur suspicious on John over the cleaner. To be his red herring. Molly. She was a neglected lover of Dutch. And so got drunk and so drunk that she thinks she told Dutch about the bank heist to the Pinkertons. Maybe the cleaner had hired Micah to rescue Dutch from some event he caused. Because after Micah split off from the old gang. He was hired by the cleaner and needed an extra gun. And would award him a big treasure for his services. He was also responsible for that shootout in Lakay when he wanted the whole gang to reunite after the Saint Denis bank heist. To draw out Agent Milton and with Bill Williamson being a fool, he looked like he was the fool to blame for luring out the Pinkertons. Plus he told Micah about Cornwall in Annesburg and hoped that a broken minded Dutch would draw out Cornwall and kill him and make more noise. Due to the point that Cornwall felt that he’s losing faith to the Pinkertons to call off the gang hunt for the robbery: he wanted to the Pinkertons to keep pursuing the Van Der Linde gang. To use that gang as patsies for more Pinkertons increase of manpower and resources and long term government influence. By painting the Van Der Linde gang as the example of terror in a Wild West. It gives the citizens a sense of fear and willing to vote for more safety. The cause of the rat was when after John was gone for a year, it’s when the cleaner came in. And pretended to be everyone’s cleaning friend. But this cleaners real name is Griff. Like the bad guy from red dead revolver.

Who had the most to gain from snitching. John got the money, got safety for his family, got a house, and got away like he did for a year before 1899

Dutch and Micah weren't together for that time gap, Dutch showed up the same day John did with all intentions of killing Micah

One other possibility: originally. Rockstar planned for Abigail to be the rat, then switched it to Micah and there’s still some hints of another rat

@asadshahid9885

6 ай бұрын

Micah had a villains personality that's the reason I think

Could it be that Micah finally got what he wanted from being a rat? What I mean is to be number 2 or equal with dutch? The rest of the rest of the gang is out of the picture, and he never liked the women in the gang because he said they didn't pull their weight. Meaning, he can now manipulate situations with arthur, john, and the rest out of the picture. What do you think?

Micah was a terrible person but he wasn’t a rat. Milton used that false information to dismantle the gang from the inside out. He no longer had Cornwall’s funding behind him to go after Dutch so his only option was to let the gang collapse from the inside out. Genius move by Milton. We will eventually find out in the next game Micah wasn’t the rat. Just wait. Rockstar knows what they’re doing. You don’t even have to think that hard about it. If Micah was the rat and was working with the Pinkertons, why would they be trying to kill Micah in every shootout, and why would Milton allow Micah to shoot his men? Makes no sense lol.

Your wrong about the six years of Dutch and Micah being together, Micah phrases it like it's a whole new thing with dutch being there

It's a work of fiction, so of course everything can be true, that the story-writers want to be true, even if it is somewhat implausible or if it is contradicted by other information inside the story. But personally I also reckoned that it does not make sense in-game that Micah betrayed the gang to the Pinktertons. For example: If Micah was constantly in touch with Pinkertons after the gang returned from Guama, as Milton claims,...why did the Pinkertons only show up at Beaver Hollow after the final train robbery? If they were constantly in touch with him and he was cooperative...there is no reason they would not strongarm him, to immediately tell them, where the gang was hiding out, after the attempt to arrest them at Lakay failed. After all: The gang was already wanted for a myriad of crimes (especially the Blackwater Ferry Robbery and the Saint Denis Bank Robbery), so there was no need to wait until they committed anonther big job (the final train robbery) to strike against them. And, as shown by Milton's meeting with Cornwall in Annesburg, the Pinkertons were under a lot of pressure to bring the gang to heels, so they certainly wanted to get them as quickly as possible. So, I'd argue that if they really were in contact with Micah, as Milton claimed, they would have forced him to immediately lead them to the gang's new hideout or tell them where it was, after the gang relocated to Beaver Hollow. Plus Micah is already in Lakay when Arthur arrives there in the first mission after returning from Guama. So, how could the Pinkertons have picked Micah up after Guarma and forced him to strike a deal with them, if he managed to arrive in Lakay before Arthur, even though Arthur immediately rides to Shady Belle and then on to Lakay after arriving back from the island. There is just no time-window for Micah to have been picked up by the Pinkertons, forced into cooperation with them, released on the condition, that he would tell them where the gang was hiding, as soon as he learned it, finding the gang's hideout in Lakay, passing on the information where the gang was hiding personally or through a letter to the Pinkertons and returning to the hideout in Lakay so that he would be there when Arthur arrived there, coming from Shady Belle, -> all in the very shot span of time that passed between Arthur leaving the boat from Guarma, riding to Shady Belle, finding Sadie's note there and riding on to Lakay.

I don't think there was a rat. Like Arthur said, they were sloppier than the town drunk and were leaving big ass clues for the Pinkertons all over. They didn't need a snitch, cause like a rapper going on VladTV, they were telling on themselves.

You’ve misunderstood the story completely , Dutch was not with Micah for 8 years , it’s implied they had just gotten together . Micah says this , and most of the black water money is still there , meaning Dutch recently led Micah to it . Also , Dutch’s mission was to kill Micah , it doesn’t make sense for them to ride together then suddenly kill him, it’s much more likely that they recently found each other , got the money , and when he saw John killed the rest of the gang , Dutch saw his opportunity

Fantastic comprehensive essay mister, love how you dissected the dynamics of the plot of the game.... No game has brought more pleasure, excitement and intrigue since San Andreas.

Micah burnt all his bridges with the law when they killed the pinkertons. He had nowhere to turn but Dutch.

Also, Micah can invite Arthur (and Bill, but that's less important) to a coach robbery during chapter 3/4, it's an optional mission but it has an impressive payout of roughly 600 dollars overall, Micah calls himself a survivor, and says essentially that he's loyal to himself first, then those he actually "cares about" (associates with and actually has plans to continue associating with) second, and he makes a point known that he does alot of money making whilst Arthur and others are away, he also has proven that he's well and capable of fending off many tens possibly even over 100 people on his own with some difficulty, this coach was guarded by maybe 5ish men. None of which were exceptionally good gunfighters, all just basic guards, no lawmen or sheriffs or marshalls, Micah would easily have been capable of stopping that coach on his own, and he could've taken all 600 dollars and spent it on something nice for himself. But instead he decided to tell Arthur and Bill, no one else knew where Micah was going, if he truly wanted to, he could've went off, robbed the coach, came back and hit Dutch with the old "loose ends" excuse. He also clearly cared about the camp and its member because as per requested and expected, his did indeed put 300 dollars into the donations box. Micah is known to just not do things he's told to if he doesn't want to or see them as important, as despite Dutch ordering it, Micah did not bury Jake Adler's body, so, in a situation where Micah could've easily went off on his own, robbed 600 dollars from a coach easily, take that money and spend it or hold onto it and come back, say he was doing something minor and no one would be the wiser, he decided to invite the man that was the most suspicious of him alongside another man, and actually let them take their share alongside giving half to camp.

@WhiskerBiscuit1

5 ай бұрын

That's also how you play both sides, man. I mean you have to, AT LEAST, keep up appearances. 🤷🏻‍♂️

The possible reason Micah was the one on the run with Dutch even though he was the rat was because his goal wasn't to turn Dutch in but self preservation....by the time the epilogue happened the pinkertons probably didn't care about the gang anymore so they were able to actually slip away...if my memory serves me the main reason Ross goes after John to kill Dutch in the first game was to avenge Milton not necessarily to bring them to justice

Lmfao how dumb, rockstar basically did everything outside of flashing a notice saying “Micah is the rat”

I think the fact that there are so many contradictory theories about the rat proves that this part of the story is not well-written... Micah being the rat is just weird. His main goal was to retreive the blackwater money, and for that he needs Dutch because only Dutch knows where the stash is. So it would make no sense to betray Dutch if you desperately need him. This is why he kept agreeing with Dutch and slipped more ideas into his head to become his new favorite. Betraying the gang only ruins his reputation in Dutch's eyes, we see that Dutch leaves him after the fight with Arthur, so what was the point of all this? Also, he doesn't seem like the type who would ever work with the law, we see in the epilogue that he's still a gangster and that he likes it. And I don't see any reason for Pinkertons to get the most notorious gang member and be like "hey that guy can work for us, the one who kills and robs the most"... I think that the rat stuff was thrown in the game just to make a simple excuse for Micah being the final boss, as if you couldn't have done that better... I would be fine with Micah betraying Dutch AFTER they get the money from blackwater, that way he gets all the money and has guaranteed freedom, but betraying Dutch before that is just stupid and out of character.

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

Literally everything was written with Abigail as the rat in mind. All you need to do is detach feelings and think logically, everything makes perfect sense

I looked up and legit thought you had recorded my session for jack and arthur fishing. I rocked that same outfit for the ENTIRE playthrough 🤣🤣🤣

Micah and dutch weren't running with each other the six years... They met up a bit before john found him

Maybe it was both Micah AND Molly? The law was on em fast in Blackwater however Molly was happy with Dutch at that time, but later, in roughly chapter 3/4 Dutch and Molly have a falling out and she claims to have ratted them out

Milton isn't at all involved with Cornwalls capture of John in Valentine. It's more likely Abigail is the Rat and she has failed to mention John to the pinkertons.

I think Kenny snitched too, when he and Arthur are going into Valentine for the wild night, he’s talking about Micah, then I said “but I got away, just about”

Nah realistically you can vividly see a Pinkerton stand above the gang hideout before John even arrives

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

If those Pinkerton are not pre rendered assets, then they followed Arthur to the camp.

Also John calls himself Jim Milton in the epilogue. Maybe because he had seen him as an ally throughout the years.

It makes perfect since to me. Killing Micah was like tying off a loose end for John. He told Abigal if he didn't do it everything they did was for nothing. Shamelessly exploiting Charles and Sadies Loyalty to Arthur for his own ends. In the same way he mercilessly hunted down Javier, Bill and Dutch to his own ends. Justifying his actions repeatedly by saying they knew the way they were living was wrong and fullish. That their code had no weight because it was immoral. John, I think, believed Jack to be his true son. He did everything he possibly could to give Jack a better life than he led. Him and Abigail both, the Whore and Gun slinger, did everything they possibly could for their child. In the end it's a tragedy. Jack becomes an Outlaw over their dead bodies. Taking up the one luxury no man can afford. Revenge.

Some additional points: 1. During the fishing trip with Jack, agents M&R know where to find Arthur and identify him, despite never having met him before. Abigail was the one that asked him to take Jack fishing. 2. John needs to head to town for Abigail just before the Scarlet Meadows train heist. A newspaper article about that robbery claims the law was tipped off by an informant. 3. The place that Arthur and Javier find John's horse at the beginning of the story is way off the course of the gang, in fact it is the opposite direction, as if he was trying to escape in the mountains

I’ve always thought it was Molly , because of the way Milton says no to her and blames Micah. I feel like it was intentional to protect Molly

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

Thing is Molly has no access to gang information to actually rat out even is she wants to. Dutch not talking to her, and she doesn't have real connections with other members,.

I think a lot of the stuff hinting at John being the rat was there as a red herring. People who played the first game know that John ends up working with the pinkertons but not how it happened. Then all the other information listed in this video on top of that makes it likely. However there is also a lot more evidence pointing towards Micah being the rat even before Guarma potentially like the camp he recommended being the out in the open camp that would be really hard to defend or him constantly getting dutch to agree to plans that are most likely traps

I don’t even think Micah was the ONLY rat. The first train robbery mission with the oil wagon also had a rat and was way before Guarma which is when Milton said Micah started talking. I honestly think Abagail may have been the original rat. As she clearly wanted SOMETHING to happen to try to control John better and attempt to make him a family man. After Guarma Micah could see the writing on the wall and decided to bail on the Van der Lind gang.

Guys, why would Micah go out of his way to kill Arthur if he weren't the rat? Why when Arthur called Micah a rat, he said "I'm a survivor" instead of "no" or "no, you are". Milton says Micah talked. Micah did talk after Guarma. Before that, we don't really know.

molly was the only rat. not hard for the law to find you when you shoot up every town. arthur said it himself

There was a prolog encounter i had with Pearson where he asked where i was located. It was right before the mission to find Micah. It got me thinking. How did Micah get to the pinkertons so fast after guarma. He was the only person we ever sent mail out for and they wrote that in for some reason. He could have fed info to them about others and they used names to push buttons. He could have told them about the power struggle for #2 under dutch between Authur and Micah. He knew about the bank robery. I definitely don't trust him too much.

My bet is it was still micah. Staying with Dutch and not turning him in allowed him to be able to control the new gang and have a bargaining chip if they were caught. I think John's indifference to the gang is more him realizing that things are falling apart. Also id bet Abigail slipping away during the bank heist would be hosea likely protected her as he always shows affection to her and Jack.

2:57 Up until now my observation is this: The idea that Micah wanted to give up Dutch leads into a false resolution, because Micah didn't want to give up Dutch. There is a mission where he tells Arthur and the boys that 5 or 6 gunmen would be more than enough to be a "band" and they should let the lot lose. In a notable louder voice. Not long before this mission he also asks Arthur about the beef between him an Marston. In my opinion Micah wanted to give up everyone aside Arthur, Dutch, Bill, maybe Hosea, Charles probably only because they were able men. That is also why he tries to form a bond with Arthur. Not noticing how Arthur finds joy in exploring the world as an adventurer not as a bandit. By the end of the video I'm still convinced that Micah was the rat. When he realizes he can't form a bond with Arthur he straight out sells him to the Ol'Driscols. Then talks about how they should just leave the rest of the band behind. Aside from John, he is also mighty away from the band when he is in prison in Strawberry. However long you take Micah won't be executed. I know that is mainly because of plot reasons, but it could also be because Micah was with the Pinkertons. Also, it is mentioned that Micah joined the band not long before the incident in Blackwater. That also seems odd. The game truly plays with our feelings, but if you play RDR2 slowly and exploring everything, you also know that Arthur is not a liar and he is loyal. He also isn't as dumb as they made him out to be. Mainly by Dutch, Micah, Bill... Hosea always tells Arthur that he is smarter than he thinks he is. By exloring the world, you can notice how Arthur enjoys learning new things. So maybe he is the most intelligent in the group. I doubt he wouldn't notice John being the traitor. I think there is no right or wrong answer here. The game is complex and based on how much you play it and HOW you play it, the story told changes. If you leave out the camp interactions with Mary-Beth, you don't see Arthur's emotional side that hates killing (referring to him saying he is killing both people and animals needlessly). That is a huge impact on the story and shows Arthur in a different light. You can be the Arhtur Dutch describes: the brawns of every operation, the brute force of the team. Then it would seem like Arthur and John are evil and they are turning on the gang out of revenge or for their own benefit. The narrative changes with every small detail. On a final note, my final verdict based on my experience is this: Micah is a manipulator, but not a very good one. Dutch is a smart man, but not the smartest one (that would be Hosea or Strauss and maybe Arthur). So Micah easily plays with Dutch so he could lead the band through Dutch. Micah knows the band wouldn't accept him as a leader, so he needs Dutch. Arthur and Hosea mention many times that Dutch changed after the Blackwater incident and even if Arthur is not the hero we think he is, Hosea has no motivation to lie. He tries to help the band all the time. He truly wants the best for everyone. John is probably more like Arthur. He is half open to the new world and doesn't really like how the band works anymore.

Didn't Micah outright admit it to you while trying to beat you to death near the end of the game?

@rawman44

4 ай бұрын

he doesn't outright admit it, but he doesn't deny it either. I think when Arthur says something about it he offers a justification, so he basically admits it.

Micah obvious Rat, but there is also one character that gets away and is never heard from again. As the story goes John meets the surviving gang members, but not the broken hearted woman that could ride, shoot and take a punch. Overshadowed by Sadie and the lost of Sean was too much for her and in her own words " This used to be fun" and " nobody plays the drunken harlot better than me". A disenchanted, looked over and broken hearted Karen may very well have been the secret Rat.

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

There is nothing obvious about Micah being rat, the only thing links him to it is from Milton's words, an enemy of the gang btw. Abigail is very obviously the only rat in the gang based on in game actions.

@matildamiller3233

6 ай бұрын

I think Karen is a possibility as one of the rats. Her persobality changed as the game progressed. She went from hapoy and carefree, all about the fun of the outlaw life, to resentment about the situation and the work she felt bullied into at camp. No longer having fun, and hating Crimshaw, with no one particularly sympathetic towards her situation. Her increased drinking and depression could have been a result of feeling guilty about it. A drunken be der could have begun the slide down that path too It's a plausible theory..

It's Cornwall's men who took John and Strauss hostage in Valentine (not Saint Denis). So no, the Pinkertons had not run into John yet. Still odd he singled him out.

My problem with the "Micah wasn't the rat" theories is that when him n Arthur are fighting n Arthur calls him a rat Micah justifies it... granted he doesn't outright say he did it.. but it makes no sense to justify ratting out the gang if he didn't rat out the gang

I’m not sure why this theory seems to be popping up more now but nonetheless the whole thing seems like a real stretch to me. 1. Dutch and Micah did not spend all the time from ch 6 till epilogue together. The dialogue actually makes it pretty clear that they recently met up. 2. I’m surprised that this many years after release more people haven’t realized that Dutch was ALWAYS going to kill Micah, whether John had shown up or not. John didn’t actually convince Dutch of anything, he just needed an opportunity to get Micah alone, away from his gang. The clues to this are that he obviously shoots him in the end, pretty abruptly I might add. Dutch then leaves without care for the thousands of dollars yards behind him. And the most telling clue is what Dutch tells John when John asks Dutch what he’s doing there. “The same as you I suppose”. Ya he meant that literally. Anyways I could make a literal essay detailing all the clues to Micah being the Rat throughout the game but I’m sure other commenters have explained most of these already

I think it was Lenny. The dialog between Lenny and Arthur when they leave the camp together and head out to the bar in Valentine. Lenny said that he got away just about.

@Matt_History

7 ай бұрын

Just about is southern slang for: i almost didn't

Molly was the rat because of the way Dutch was looking at Mary Beth. Molly tried to talk to Arthur about 'loyalty being everything' but then Uncle came up about a heist job. Yeah. I believe Molly was a woman scorned and she betrayed them all.

I think it's more likely that abigail is a rat alongside micah. Because apparentely micah doesn't even shoot any of the pinkertons when they arrive at beaver hollow in the last mission

@ExiledPlaton

Ай бұрын

Why do people think it's Abagail like I seriously don't get it? Please explain, also a Pinkerton henchmen calls out Micahs name during the Beaver Hollow thing but nobody elses.

@Yes-Bean

Ай бұрын

@@ExiledPlaton i said that both of them are rats

So this would lead rdr3 being about times before rdr2 where we could see johns actions and betrayal. And this would turn plot, with arthur as a saviour, on its head.

Micah is absolutely the rat. I think, for one, Milton had absolutely no reason to lie about it. He had Arthur at gunpoint when he said Micah was the rat, and was basically telling Arthur the truth before Milton thought he would kill him. Also, the way Micah responds to Arthur calling him a rat when they first begin to fight is a little way of confirming it. That was where Arthur says “You rat. You rat!” And, Micah, instead of denying it, says “I’m a survivor, blacklung. A survivor. That’s all there is, living and dying.”

Abigail is the rat button

Here’s a detail I never see brought up that seemingly indicates Micah really was the rat: Milton claims they picked him up after Guarma right? Well if you go back to the mission where you finally get back from Guarma, you’ll see a cutscene when Arthur gets to camp and then all the other gang members in Guarma get back on their own. All of them look exactly like they did at the end of Guarma- filthy, wearing the same dirty clothes, long hair and unkempt beards, suggesting the first thing they did when getting back was look for the gang, which makes sense. All EXCEPT for Micah of course- he’s in clean clothes, he’s shaved his facial hair back to where it usually is, and he’s freshly bathed and dressed as usual in his gunslinger outfit. How did he somehow find the time to do all this before literally anyone else getting back from Guarma? Was he just so good at tracking the gang down that he was able to before anyone else with time to spare? Or did he have a little help from our lovely friends the Pinkertons? Given Milton’s admission, Micah’s untrustworthy and selfish nature and history of getting caught (remember breaking him out of strawberry?), and this detail which is hard to reconcile without the pinkertons aid, I believe that it is most likely that Milton wasn’t lying, and that Micah was indeed the rat.

This is a very interesting take on the story, it would also give reason why John works with the Pinkertons in RDR1, they know he's someone that will work with them, due to already working with him before. Rockstar deceiving the player isn't that much of a stretch and in a game focused on criminals painted as good people, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if this is true. Videos like this only show the incredible talent of the writers at Rockstar. Great video 👍

Not gonna lie, I didn't really know what to make of Micah when I first thought of him. I thought he was a real sob of course but in my head after the first quarter of the game roughly, I thought "this guy is an outlaw and maybe at some point, him and Arthur will get on the same page." But then from our perspective, plus those of us who have played rdr, we have this preconceived notion that John is a hero. But after seeing only half of this video, makes me wonder what exactly John was redeeming himself for. For being an outlaw ok? Maybe it's more like redeeming himself for being evasive towards his family unit in the early years of it. Maybe arthur just happened to get sentimental towards the end, it is factual that even the most deranged killers can have a spiritual awakening under the true impending threat of death

I don't think it was John because... that's what the first game was about. Him being forced to hunt down his old gang mates at the behest of Uncle Sam.

Been playing for about 4 years now. Between playing and watching videos, I'm starting to think Abigail is the Rat.

@kaydens6964

6 ай бұрын

You are correct.

Everyone knows the true rat was Gavin.

its quite possible johns the traitor seeing as how you play the game and you realize dutch was using all of them from the beginning john might have come to the same realization as arthur and seeing as they came under dutch via similar circumstances and timing john did what he did to get away just the same as the game in rdr1 when he had to "betray" his gang but as you can see he is fully calloused to the notion of betrayal and stands on his resolve of his future with his family through his deal with the Pinkertons so as a fan of the franchise and a 97% completer of rdr2 i wouldnt be too upset if abigail and john plotted their escape from the gang

When trying to sort this all out I can't stop thinking about the "Just A Social Call" mission. There were a couple of interesting things that happened in that mission for me. Let's presume that Micah is somehow helping Milton as the latter says: 1. Micah finds out that Cornwall is arriving on a boat that coincidently Milton is also on. I found that suspicious. 2. Also by the time Dutch shoots Cornwall I don't think Milton had a chance to even get on his horse yet. However we don't see nor Milton nor any Pinkertons intervene. As far as I remember it's just all Cornwall's men. That whole mission makes my mind spiral into conspiracy theories about Milton asking Micah to nudge Dutch into killing Cornwall for him. Other than that I don't see Micah doing anything for the Pinkertons in Chapter 6 after Guarma. I mean the Beaver Hollow location might have been leaked but other than that what is there? The train doesn't stop when the gangs wants to rob it, Micah might have had something to do with that. I don't know, if Milton isn't lying, summing Micah's work with "He has been a good boy ever since" seems to me to be high praise for something substantial. To sum it up: - the "Just A Social Call" mission seems suspicious to me; - it's hard for me to see what Micah gave to the Pinkertons after Guarma.

Nah. My boy John is no snitch.

In a way it would also kinda explain why him and Abigail barely ever reference Arthur at all in the epilogue outside of like 2 voice line Abigail has and that’s me being nice about it

Micah gave us several hints. He even said that he was "survivor, blacklung." And he stated at one point that he'd prefer a much smaller gang with only a few strong men. He constantly asked for the money in Blackwater and suggested going back there, even though he knew that the place was crowded with Pinkertons. If there was a deal with the agency that gave him money and freedom, he would have taken it without thinking. He didn't care for any of the gang members and that was the reason why he became a rat.

We may hate Micah, but he gave us the coolest ability in the game; DUAL WIELD! As far as my version of Arthur is concerned we're even. He may have destroyed my entire family and my life, but I got to use two double action revolvers at the same time.

I always considered Micay to be an a**hole, but I didn´t really believe him to be the rat. He risked to much.

Yes Micah set up the ferry job where the pinkertons conveniently ambushed the gang