The legions were a hammer meant to pound the galaxy into one Imperium. The chapters are a scalpel used to find and remove threats to the health of that Imperium.

@QuestDeVille

Жыл бұрын

This maybe the most sound comment here

@dparky1627

Жыл бұрын

They’re more akin to a Special Forces unit than anything else.

@shamurai69

Жыл бұрын

@jacobdarling1524 This comment, this idea - it sums up how the Imperium “progressed”. I never thought of it in this way. You summed it up perfectly. Thank you.

@jeromeace1282

Жыл бұрын

Perhaps, but each of those scapels has a much greater chance to become that very threat in the first place. How many marines could have bee prevented from going traitor if they could have been reassigned to different corners of the galaxy, instead of letting heresy fester in unseen places, with no higher authority to look for guidance but the emperor.

@dparky1627

Жыл бұрын

@@jeromeace1282, isn’t the going rumour among the fandom now that Big E planned the heresy to happen in the first place?

At the time he split the legions he was in the right, they needed the forces spread out with individual command structures in order to maintain control of the imperium. However this plan should of only been a temporary solution until the imperium stabilised enough to stand on it's own so that the legions could get back to doing what they do best and wage grand warfare on the enemies of the imperium

@leonardovegaolmedo5483

Жыл бұрын

The split made the space chapters marines more independent, and thus more capable of responding to localized thrests, though.

@gafeleon9032

Жыл бұрын

Is the imperium stabilised? Is going on the offensive a good idea? Legions are an offensive tool, good for wars on a single front, not the siege the empire is under The empire can wipe out the Tau, but they're no pushovers, I'd take a century of resources to do so and likely more than one legion Chaos and the Tyranids are growing, a huge offensive against the Tau would leave the Necrons free to search for tomb worlds, the frontiers would be much more vulnerable to the Drukhari The empire is stretched thin as it is, it's not even whole with the eye of terror having it split in two

@jonharrison9222

Жыл бұрын

Putting the legions back together after stationing chapters all over the Imperium to consolidate, monitor, guard etc. is self evident nonsense.

@Charlie0l9

Жыл бұрын

Well yes, except he never got the opportunity, especially since the remaining Loyalist Primarchs all got knocked out of action or killed shortly after the Heresy. By the time things have somewhat ‘stabilised’, the Imperium have started praising and worshipping the Emperor as a god, and any attempts at reform is probably going to be viewed as heretical.

@Historyfrek4ever

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, while he may have not implemented it in the most diplomatic way possible. Issue is that like everything with imperium, the people who came after the primarchs did not either improve or develop the system, at most they added crimpling amounts of red tape. Not to mention that Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy prevented any attempts of change as they are hyperallergic to it. Had Guilliman stayed active or any of his brothers, they would have definitely develop something akin to last wall protocol or multiple chapters like Black Templar or the Rout. Problem now is that Guilliman himself has admitted that imperium is so afraid of change that even he cannot maintain the Indomitus Crusade indefinitely. It is going to take HIM maybe even centuries to make any meaning full improvements to imperium.

The Codex Astartes’ rule on establishing chapters of around 1000 marines is merely an extension on the political and military reforms that Roboute Guilliman implemented across the Imperium. The High Lords of Terra generally governed over the Imperium as a collective. Each member not having too much power and were more or less able to check against eachother. There’s was in general no one person that could take over the Imperium and rule as it’s tyrant. The Imperial Army was divided into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy so that no one general had control over ground and space forces if they ever betrayed the imperium. The imperium itself became a feudal tribute empire with much delegation of authority from the central government between planetary governors, the adeptus mechanicus, adeptus ministorum and the space marines etc. The goal was that by limiting the power of any individual leaders the damage inflicted by rebellion or chaos corruption could be limited. Although there have been periods of turmoil and chaos has worked its way into the hearts of men, the imperium has survived for ten millennium. Because there never has been the potential for a repeat of the Horus Heresy thanks to Roboute Guillimans reforms.

@ethrsag735

Жыл бұрын

To be fair several of those conflicts were directly instigated by those in power taking advantage of the Astartes' abilities as well as personal grabs of power which the Astartes overall remained neutral in. The Badab War; a conflict which escalated thanks to petty nobles exacerbating the situation as Huron was prosecuting a campaign to clean up the sector and temporarily halted the zone's tribute to reinforce the worlds within Badab after his campaign had a massive loss of manpower when the Administratum reassigned that manpower elsewhere right as he was making massive gains into the campaign. Age of Apostasy; civil religious war in which the Astartes only joined the fight once they had been attacked unprovoked.

@ThatRatBastard

Жыл бұрын

So glad someone else finally realized that the imperium is feudal and not fascist.

@JustaGuy_Gaming

Жыл бұрын

It also has the issue of never advancing as well though. There is a reason the Emperor went to conquer the galaxy and not just left every one as squabbling individual worlds. The Imperium has "survived" but it has not grown. Nor has it suffered no loses, it's just losing less in one blow than it did before.

@TheTeremaster

11 ай бұрын

TBH tho some chapters and their successors pose minimal threat of chaos conversion. The Ultramarines are an obvious candidate as well as the blood angels thanks to their genetic hatred of horus and chaos

To paraphrase Dorn’s argument. “G argued the spilt had to happen. I called him a coward. He called me a traitor. I called him conceited. He had the Imperial Navy launch Codexes at my Strike Cruiser.” Edit: just re-listened to that bit from IETTSD, and kinda fixed the paraphrase.

@alexandrerotundodasilva7810

Жыл бұрын

"I was somethign beyond furious"

@freakymoejoe2

Жыл бұрын

Guilliman actually fired books out of naval cannons at dorn...?

@theoceansandbox2712

Жыл бұрын

@@freakymoejoe2 it’s from a fan-made warhammer series called “If the emperor had a text to speech device”. I highly reccomend it.

@alexandrerotundodasilva7810

Жыл бұрын

@@freakymoejoe2 Nope, it was something that happened in a web series non canon to Warhammer 40k, call If the Emperor had a Text to Speach Device, by Bruva Alfabusa

@JunkPhuJP

Жыл бұрын

@@freakymoejoe2 even though IETTSD is a parody, they come from a place of deep love and adoration of the game and the lore. The user is Alfa Busa

Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and all their successors demonstrate that Legions weren't truly broken up, they just adopted a new doctrine that favoured small tactical rapid response forces, "firefighters" to help defend Imperium. There are more then enough loopholes to continue operating as Legion. Black Templars just always crusade, Ultramarines and all their successors share infrastructure, supplies, recruitment and even have joint command and intelligence network, Dark Angels and their successors outright never split up beyond just on paper. Chaos Space Marines continue operating as tip of the spear, a breakthrough force. Loyalists split and adopted elastic defense and defense in depth. They show up when Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy truly need a new capability or some tactical edge. They drop, do their job, leave and allow other to do theirs. It's no longer about glory, it's about doing the job that will allow countless people to see another day. And it worked for longer then modern day civilization existed. Countless generations were born and raised in peace and died in their sleep because it was done. Imperium doesn't need to prove anything, it's continued existence is a proof enough and a triumph you can't dismiss no matter what. So yes, he was right. And unless you can find a way to make every citizen of Imperium equal to Astartes(or trust AIs again), it was the best choice.

@venerablebrothergoriate5844

Жыл бұрын

Iron Hands, too. They simply downsized the clans slightly. The Clan Companies are essentially self-contained fighting forces, each possessing their own vehicles, terminators, dreadnoughts and every type of squad an Astartes force could need. No Iron Hands clan company is dependent upon the other for any resource.

@MWH12085

Жыл бұрын

Technically, the Blood Angel's as well.

@sandvichbros1659

Жыл бұрын

The Space Wolves have some of their companies expanded beyond 1000 marines and all of their company have more than 100 marines by a longshot. They even have a few more 3 companies than usual. The only reason they get away with it is because no one bother to travel to the backwater system that is Fenris to check on them.

@crimcrusader8459

Жыл бұрын

There is also the matter of the Imperial Fists' 'Last Wall' Protocols that calls for both the Imperial Fists and all successor chapters to fight as one Legion should Holy Terra comes under any kind of extreme threat.

@arbelico2

Жыл бұрын

One option is to put more resources into the ARMADA and to have combat cybors created by the MECHANICUS to go on the offensive.

The Badaab War and the Age of Apostasy are more than enough reason to show that splitting the Legions up was a good idea. The Imperium has been brought to the brink of collapse, not by the dismantling of the Legions, but by the slow corruption and rot of its bureaucracy and by the corrosive nature that worship of the Emperor has had on the psyche of the Imperium. Causing it to spasm irrationally with the belief that everything will be fine and nothing has to change because the Emperor will take care of everything.

@PaperMicShow

Жыл бұрын

badab war was the fault of the imperium .

@ProjectEkerTest33

Жыл бұрын

@@PaperMicShow Almost all of the Imperium's worst problems are its on fault. Splitting up the legions at least limited the harm

@ethrsag735

Жыл бұрын

@@PaperMicShow The fault of the local nobility to whom the tribute went through first, the administratum for removing a large portion of the forces Huron needed to continue persecuting his campaign and the departure of the Black Templars.

@Bluehairedgirl89

Жыл бұрын

And how many novels and other fiction have we read were a chapter has either fallen or almost fallen to either treason or heresy. Heck, Chaos literally almost corrupted the Blood Angels once. It’s a sad truth but any chapter can be turned either by the chaos or even xenos like the enslavers. Splitting the Legions up minimized the damage when it happened.

@dark7element

Жыл бұрын

The worship of the Emperor is analogous to the maintenance of the Emperor himself on the golden throne. The Imperium cannot survive without it - without faith in the Emperor to unite it against outside enemies and inspire the endless sacrifices needed to keep it running, the Imperium would've collapsed long ago. But, just like the golden throne keeps the Emperor alive as a pathetic, decaying shadow of his former self, the religion built around him is the same to the Imperium itself. It is both the bandage keeping it alive, and the shackles preventing it from ever rising again. Put simply, it is possible for the Cult of the God-Emperor to be both the only thing keeping the Imperium alive in some sense, and the poison corroding it from the inside out. This is the central tragedy of the Imperium of man. And even though this is a ludicrous science-fantasy setting, this tragedy resonates deeply with the real world, which is one of the reasons 40k has found such enduring popularity. It was originally intended as a satire of late 20th century British politics and imperial nostalgia but it's since found relevance in many other cultural contexts.

In offensive mode, it's better to concentrate your force. In defensive mode and you don't know where and when the enemy will strike, it's better to spread out.

I don’t think Guilliman understood that even during the Heresy the traitors had elements of their legions shattered because plenty weren’t onboard with treason. Personally while I agree with somewhat of a fragmentation of the legions it should not have been the 1000 chapter groupings but instead 5,000-10,000 as to have a large scale force operate over a larger sector.

@piotrd.4850

Жыл бұрын

I'd say that chapters should be allowed to grow to such strenght slowly, at regulated pace, accross say..... millenium?

@freakymoejoe2

Жыл бұрын

I think even the most optimistic approach put the number of purged marines in the traitor legions at very, very low.

@mattwho81

Жыл бұрын

The lore has been retconned. Originally the Legions were on average 12,000 strong. Early publications put the total number of Astartes at Istvaan V was 60,000. Sometime around the publication of ‘Deliverance lost’ the Legions size was retconned x10.

@JustaGuy_Gaming

Жыл бұрын

I think another issue is what is a space marine? Some chapters go loose with the rules by excluding training scouts or potentials. But honestly at least double the amount of troops your actively field should be allowed. Think about how many training sergeants and the like take up that 1000 marine numbers. So yeah have a limit, but also allow new recruits and the staff to train them be excluded from that number at the very least.

@darthbloodborn

Жыл бұрын

sometimes a small force of space marines is enough but all to often a legion force is what is needed

I find myself reminded of Guilliman's comments to Aenoid Thiel, when discussing how he intended to incorporate Thiel's practicals into the his new Codex. One aspect which marked Thiel's career more than any other was his ability to achieve good results with relatively small numbers of Marines - sometimes hodegepodge formations not originally built as deliberate units. What Guilliman concluded from this, he seems to allude, is that Legions were an inefficient tool: a very expensive sledgehammer, wielded in the persuit of missions for which a smaller, more flexible task-group would have sufficed. We can see the same sort of thinking in the organisation of Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade fleet Battlegroups, which were each designed to be independent and self-sufficient. Battlegroups would answer to their corresponding Fleetmaster for strategic direction, but otherwise investigated and initiated their own campaigns. In short, they emphasise flexibility and localised initiative over the merits of the thunderous force of massed men and warships.

With the _current state_ of the Galaxy it could be claimed that every Chapter is on crusade, and thus rescind the Chapter size limits or at least greatly increase them. Especially with the addition of Primaris marines numbers can be increased. They won't get up to Legion sized, but a effective Chapter could have at least double or more it's 1000 codex compliant maximum. About 10,000 seems a reasonable new limit which realistically few will reach (just how did the Black Templers get there so quickly??). As well Chapters should have attached Imperial guard units, the Chapter become the leaders of a section of the Astra Militarium that trains with them and is under their command. That would allow far greater efficiency in the use of force multipliers as both factions would understand each other's capabilities, and the Astartes would greatly increase the skill of the guard, and their ability to do manoeuvres with Space Marines. A attached Imperial guard regiment would be exempt from the ban on having combined arms units, as they would be under the command of Space Marines Chapter Masters (or a new Lieutenant rank in the Astartes that's a liaison who controls the Imperial guard). The only issue is most Chapters would want the Death Corps of Kriegs attached to them.... .. Add in members from other groups such as specialised Imperial Assassins (for taking down enemy leadership) and Imperial Knights and the Chapter becomes the leader and focal point of a very effective war machine. Give the Chapters their own armies.

@asonofhoruslegionary

Жыл бұрын

This is essentially reinstating the Astartes legions on mass. Which while a good idea in theory has some problems

@theaetherknight5614

Жыл бұрын

The idea of attaching an imperial guard unit to a chapter may seem like a good idea. That is because it is. Not every job that needs to be done requires a space marine after all. This would alleviate one of the chapter system’s greatest flaws. That of having to conduct warfare on a planetary scale with only 1000 soldiers to fill every role.

I always liked to think of Guilliman as a Julius Caesar type who split the leagions 1 for all the reasons mentioned here, but 2 to weaken the political power of the other Primarchs and himself, and reversing many of those changes when he reawakens as the only Primarch around

I mean, I'm pretty sure the Imperial fists can probably go full legion strength if they call the last wall protocol. Dark Angels probably have a similar stratagem in their playbook. Dante managed to call all the angels back to Baal. Maybe Robert Groovy man would make it an official strategy.

@watchm4ker

Жыл бұрын

I would say the Fists, the Blood Angels, and the Dark Angels should reform their Legions: Imperial Fists to form a proper defense force on Terra, Blood Angels as an equivalent force on Imperium Noctis, and the Dark Angels because *The Lion didn't agree to anything, Guilliman.* The Ultramarines, by contrast, shouldn't be reformed - mostly because how the hell would you pull back that many successor chapters, but also because it'd be seen as a naked power play, and he can't afford that

@i2acf2011

Жыл бұрын

The Fists technically can. However, when the Last Wall was enacted during the War of the Beast, the successor chapters did not want to rejoin to remake the 7th Legion. It took quite a bit of convincing to get them to cooperate.

@nohrianscum9791

Жыл бұрын

Pretty sure they all have a plan to reunite in a time of crisis, to varying degrees of secrecy.

@RedXlV

Жыл бұрын

@@watchm4ker Pretty sure the Dark Angels are already de facto reforming their Legion now that the Lion has returned.

@edwardbrown3721

11 ай бұрын

​@@watchm4kerthe Legio I never split, they just pretended to, Azrael or El'Jonson could call up the legion any time they want

Yes he was. By the end of the Great Crusade, the Legions had already begun to naturally operate in smaller units of Chapter, and Company size and being smaller in size makes you a more agile in responding to threats. The issue was that he went too far and should have done is kept the original Ultramarine sized Chapters, i.e. Ten thousand, not One Thousand which was pre-reformation Company size which would have equipped them better to deal with threats like the 'nids and Necrons.

@alex_zetsu

Жыл бұрын

If they were de facto operating like chapters, then you don't gain much benefits by formalizing the existing operational status.

@X9Killbot

Жыл бұрын

THe thing was that originally legions were 10,000 ish and a chapter was 1/10 of a legion. When the legions were increased to 100,000+ the chapters were not increased also. This was mostly done because those who already had full sets of chapters wouldn't have to increase their TT armies by 10 fold. Or, that's ,y interpretation. I do agree with your statement tho.

@X9Killbot

Жыл бұрын

@@alex_zetsu You kind of do. Smoothing our political tensions. THere was a great distrusts of astartes right after the heresy IIRC.

I always agreed with the breaking of the Legions, with the caveat the codex was never fully implemented because Guilliman went into stasis before he could. I also believe that in regards to chapters working together he wanted the Astartes to share the same tactics as shown in the Codex so that they could seamlessly work together as they were working off the same page, but time and specialisation made this less likely. The Codex compliant chapters can work together very easily but those that use the Codex as guidelines generally can’t.

@nahuelleandroarroyo

Жыл бұрын

Thats nonsense, that would the equal of a marine or spec ops force not being able to coordinate and share zones with regular army. Intercessors, rhinos, terminator quads, land speeders, etc all work the same. The most divergent might the Space Wolves with all the name swichted to Wolfen X or Wolf Y, you just need a reference of what you have available. If the 1st company of the dark angels (deathwing) is around, you know you have heavy infantry, just like someone telling you "oh, some terminators from the 4th company of the ultramarines are around"

@Thought_Processing_

Жыл бұрын

@@nahuelleandroarroyo The Flesh Tearers I would argue are more divergent, or the Marines Malevolent. those chapter can''t really fight in a unified command structure. The wolves despite them ignoring the total number can still work with other chapters quite well

The Badab Wars is a literal case study of the effectiveness of Codex Astartes in terms of decentralizing the Legios into smaller groups to ensure that "corruption" would not taint an entire Legion once again. While it took a considerable effort on the part of the Imperium it wasn't a galactic scale issue (though it did obviously garner the attention of the then High Lords) but it was one conflict among the many. It does sadden me that the writing and care that the Badab War series had is not often seen in the recent and new publications of lore.

@fildariusv7045

11 ай бұрын

Exactly! Many can be angry at Guilliman, but imagine if instead of a few couple thousand Marines, the Imperium had to face a Legion or so of let's say 50k to 75k Marines... It would be a disastrous campaign

The Imperium has on the whole been on the defense on the grand scale since the Horus Heresy. The chapters have essentially become a rapid response force, actual special forces instead of the standing military they were. A knife to the Imperial Guards hammer.

Ideally reforming the Legions at this point, but keeping Independent Chapters around would make the most sense. The idea I have is similar to US armored units in World War 2, where you had Armored divisions but also tons of independent armored units that could be more flexibly deployed to situations where a full armored division was not needed. Sadly I doubt the Imperium has the space or time to do a restructuring like this though I would say Guilliman should remove or at least raise chapter strength limits for groups like the Space Wolves and possibly just tacitly allow the Black Templars to keep doing their thing.

@theliato3809

Жыл бұрын

He’s been doing restructuring of late from whwt I’ve heard from leaks on new edition stuff

More multi-chapter groupings is a pretty cool way to get back to legion strength without technically being a legion. The Dark Angels had the right idea by keeping their successor chapters very close, if not for the right reasons. Honestly, having the Lion back will help Girlyman figure shit out.

@nahuelleandroarroyo

Жыл бұрын

The Lion will be horrified of whats happening in the imperium, if they can also muster the fists and the blood angels they might change the imperium. Those two plus Ultramarines and Dark Angels seem to pull the most influence, the Space wolves might also be very powerful but i doubt they might join. Having the imperial fists also gets you close to the Dark Templars. Grey Knights are pretty much a coin flip, but most likely wont take a side, they know their purpose but are not fans of the inquisition. Great Khans and Blood Ravens i dont know well to judge intentions. Salamanders I guess will also stay away from a civil war

History definitely vindicated Guilliman. Not only does breaking the legions and putting them into roles as siege-breakers or bulwarks, it also made the chapters more mobile. It is infinitly easier to mobilize a force of one thousand as opposed to a few million, turning space marines into a sort of Quick-reaction force that can respond to immediate threats much better, like genestealers or chaos/xeno incursions.

@ZDson3112

11 ай бұрын

Clearly you haven't read the Horus heresy novels and have no idea how wide spread they were. Your reason for why it was done isn't even the same as why he did it to begin with. If history vindicated Guilliman then why did he order all the chapters to return to legion strength when he left stasis? Ffs people only had a rough idea of where the White-Scars were operating in the galaxy, though admittedly, that was mostly because not giving a fuck is sorta their mainstay.

@fildariusv7045

11 ай бұрын

@@ZDson3112 Guilliman has regretted this decision because people took the changes he made as religious doctrine basically, the Codex was supposed to be updated and refined over time as war changed, not became a holy book. At the time, the split was necessary, to ensure the stability of the Imperium (with its ups and downs, it has survived thanks to his reforms). Nowadays, the threats the Galaxy faces do in fact need the Legions or at least a reforming of the chapters once more

@fildariusv7045

11 ай бұрын

@@ZDson3112 And yes, I am aware that already even before and during the Heresy, the White Scars were already pretty much divided into proto-chapters

The "breaking" of the Legions was going to happen regardless - once the Crusade was over, and there needed to be much smaller actions, the Legions would naturally splinter into more specialized forces, more isolated forces, and more localized forces. Some groups wouldn't need certain things, some groups would specialize in certain things, the Legions would claim more and more planets for their recruits, rivalries would emerge, reputations would be forged, etc. Over centuries, this would lead to "Chapters" similar to the 41st millenium chapter. And likely there would have been quite a bit of legion-specific Civil Wars along the way. The Astartes who became the first Black Templars, for example, would have likely created their own group with the Imperial Fists, and would chafe at the control the Fists would try to exert over them - and likely would lead to the Black Templars fighting the Imperial Fists in a war of "Independence". About the only thing that might have stopped this from happening is having their Primarch active, and exerting the "Primarch Aura" to stop infighting and ideological drift. Guilliman splitting the Legions apart completely, the way he did... was probably the right idea. The implementation wasn't the greatest, but if Guilliman had been active for the entire 10,000 years, he probably would have tinkered again and again, revising the Codex and adjusting it. But he didn't - we get the Codex Astartes v1.0, and that's it for 10k years. We're looking at the metaphorical equivalent of Windows 95 - which was great in the mid 90's, but really needed Windows 98 and then Windows 2000 to deal with the issues that came up in Windows 95. Except... they had to wait 10k years for Windows 98.

He was definitely in the right. As you said, the scale of war has drastically changed with the Tyranid Hive Fleets and the awakening of Tomb Worlds, but that doesn't change the fact that, at that moment, he was in the right. The fact he has made amendments shows himself that the splintering of Legions into Chapters was done in a way that allows such a decision to be refined as it needed over the course of millennia - and in a relatively easy way, to boot.

Once conquering vaste empires was no longer planning on being the norm it made sense to split. For the most part, everything is defensive for the last 10,000 years. It made sense to spread the force out to defend territory. Yes a Legion CAN send forces all over the place but they were really designed for one or two big fights at a time. The Chapter system allowed more independence, and theoretically, allowed faster response by more local forces, which speed at all levels has always been a hallmark of the Astartes. This also allows joint strike forces with chapters with different skills to work together using their preferred strengths. In 40K I would say an increase in unit size should be allowed and more of a focus in creating larger forces working together. The chapters could only slowly grow in size even with outside assistance but that would allow the Imperium to be able to support the greater numbers over time. Another thought is keeping Legions/Chapters but removing them from Operational control. Chapters/Legions Primarily are responsible for training and equipping forces but where they go and fight would be determined by some sort of regional commander. Maybe Sector level but possibly Segmentum command could be an Astartes himself but would control all forces assigned to his area, all branches of service. That commander would determine the most important warzone that needs assistance. I could go on but I would argue Astartes should be more integrated Operationally in to the Wider Imperium and be trained to command and work better with regular human forces.

Like the Thunder Warriors before them, the Adeptus Astartes are a thing to be improved upon. Breaking the Legions into Chapters created ideal conditions for Belisarius Caul to selectively cross-breed gene-seed through the ensuing Foundings and eventually create the Primaris Marines. Furthermore, it allowed Loyalist remnants of the Traitor Legions that were free of Chaos taint to shed their past and continue to defend the Imperium. Lastly, the shortage of gene-seed is a complete myth. It is established lore that Progenoid glands can be matured and harvested using convicts at a rate of 3 germ glands every 15 standard years. Thus, even a single gene-seed "farm" of 1,000 individuals would produce enough viable gene-seed to build an entire chapter once a century. Over the past 10,000 years, the sheer scale of Caul's experiments means that Caul would have produced more than enough viable gene-seed to rebuild the Space Marines many times over. It's simple maths. Furthermore, Mars has the patterns to produce Primaris-scale and regular-scale Space Marine armour. Other Forge Worlds could begin mass production as well - provided the Imperium is not short some critical raw material for Space Marine Power Armour. Frankly, all signs point to a deliberate phase-out and replacement.

They could lift the cap on recruitment, but by this point the biggest issue is lack of gene seed. Multiple chapters could be merged together or perhaps might instead temporarily link up under joint command. Chapters also had a great deal of autonomy in deciding which of the Imperium’s threats most deserve their immediate attention.

@kevintang6746

Жыл бұрын

Based on what I read, it seems gene seed is not really lacking, but the amount is intentionally limited by the high lords to limit space marine size. In one book, I think they mentioned many more chapters can be raised by high lord decree if they want. Also Minotaur never seem to be lack of gene seed

Feels like splitting the legions was shutting the barn door after the horse had bolted. The primarchs had already declared their allegiances

As reforms, I can imagine several things. Allowing astartes chapters to form XI and XII companies, allowing them to have ordinary human auxiliaries for secondary roles and inter-chapter deployments to facilitate cooperation for future large scale deployments. By not overcommitting to a single reform you can minimize the logistics strain, and preparing for a new form of warfare.

While Gulliman's Codex helps minimize the damage to the Imperium if a chapter goes renegade, it does complicate a chapter's ability to function after heavy losses, like with the Astral Claws. However, we must remember that the Administraturm *likes* the SM chapters being limited to 1,000. I think an amendum would satisfy both parties; The Chapters could have two sections; one would be the standard compliment now, called the "Sword" element, while 3-5 additional reserve companies held either at the homeworld or remain within the Chapter's primary fleet called the "Shield" element, with 3-4strike cruisers plus a single extra battle barge. This way, if the Sword element suddenly suffers catastrophic casualties, the Shield element can either help reinforce the Sword, or make a diversionary attack so the Sword survivors can attempt a break-out.

A drastic reorganisation of the legions would have been required in any case. I think it's fair to say that immediately post Siege of Terra that the majority of loyalist legions are not combat effective. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars have all taken apocalyptic casualties either in the Siege or at Istvann. The Iron Hands, Dark Angels and Ultramarines have absorbed significant losses in their various campaigns and are operated at reduced effectiveness compared to pre heresy levels. There's also doubt as to whether or not the Imperium could sustain the effort required to rebuild the legions. Were the Ad-Mech just going to pull 1 million suits of power armour, Terminator armour, chainswords, bolters, Thunderhawks, drop pods etc out of its collective arse? Mars was devastated, many forge worlds heavily damaged at the very least. Massive amounts of men and resources had been expended. A number of the loyalist legions also suffered irreparable damage to their recruitment pools. FM and Sanguinius are dead. Caliban is destroyed. The Raptor experiment backfired on the Raven Guard pretty hard. Would it have killed Bobby G to say 2000 or 5000 marines instead of 1000? Probably not. But the era of 100,000+ marines under a single command had to end for political and practical reasons. It was no longer feasible or desirable.

He was right at the time, Circumstances outside of his understanding proved him wrong in the long term. The Traitors had been crushed, the Orks were broken, the Eldar a non-issue and the Necrons and Tyranids were not even a concept. He also underestimated how bad the Imperium would sink, but the Primarchs were long gone by that point.

YES. It wasn't about LEGIONS - but about PRIMARCHS: *People forget two things: [1] Guilliman himself was BY FAR MOST DEGRADED by splitting the legions. Despite Calth, Ultramarines totaled almost HALF of manpower left in 9 loyalist legions* (or left of them). Three legions of Istvaan V were bascially demolished - e.g. Raven Guard was left as equivalent of barely 5 chapters. Imperial FIsts decimated in both Imperial Palace and Pain Glove, so were Blood Angels and Scars. That left Vylka Fenryka - blooded at Prospero short time before. That left Dark Angels and Ultramarines as any coherent fighting force. [2] * Also, some legions have LOST their Primarchs and that ALONE would impact power balance between them, deepening the divide*. Solution was to remove PRIMARCHS from direct control of LEGION size formations.The mistake was not slowly GROWING chapters over centuries to like....10-20 thousand.

@piotrd.4850

Жыл бұрын

Come to think of it - Codex Astartes ended up like Imperial Truth. Twisted and misrepresented over millenia. What started as groundwork / framework was raised to blindly followed dogma.

Mister Blue was probably the second greatest tactician and statesmen following Horus, with him gone Guilliman would naturally be the best man to lead the Imperium. Though I do believe he’ll still face threats from within since being a pragmatist means changing things that were long believed to be impossible to change, a better question though would be that will Guilliman allow the Imperial Cult to exist since he was raised under the Imperial truth which wasn’t a religion but a belief in science, a way for Big-E to rid the galaxy of chaos by getting rid of their food as it were. Without worshippers the dark gods would have to rely on the bearest imprint that coming into contact with chaos entails, for those not aware Chaos is so corrupting that even the most pure of souls will have that little voice in the backs of their minds trying to tell them otherwise and whilst that sort source of power pales in comparison to the energy provided by the full worship of the Chaos gods it is nevertheless a source of power. What the Emperor tried to do with the imperial truth is have that little source of power be the ONLY source of power for the Dark Gods and thereby slowly but surely deplete their power. However because of his strictly anti-Chaos ways and the fact that the Emperor was a very powerful Psyhicer his very existence in the warp was enough to be a counter to Chaos, as the Warp and Chaos are two different things the Warp being the manifestation of emotions and the Chaos Gods being the manifestation of the darkest of emotions. Since the Emperor was a very powerful psyhker it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the Warp interpreted the Emperor as Anti Chaos, this begs the question however would Guilliman see the potential of the Imperial Cult as a weapon of the Dark Gods or would he try to bring back the Imperial Truth but in a different way?

This break up bears some resemblance to roman comitatenses The legions were broken up in the 3rd century in several smaller pieces in depth with the biggest piece being the furthest away. Smaller pieces would react faster and if they were destroyed, would not cripple the overall legion. While different, this was GW's inspiration for chapters imo. I think we may, in later editions, see these codexes be revamped, getting losened or straight up replaced as GW is creating strong external threats to the imperium and as primarchs are starting to reappear. Still i don't see legions ever coming back they would be too detrimental for the current player base and the hurt the diversity of the space marines (their main money maker).

Considering the fact that the Emperors is on the toilet, i believe the benefits of centralization are not longer warranted. With the toliet emperor on this gaming throne, his royal flush rests with all of the imperium. As for his sons they are too stupid to not download onlysins and belong in a orphanage. His good sons however must clean and bathe the Emperor for the mean time, in his retirement sanctum until he gets revived by the devs. He is also still waiting for the missing Primarchs return from warhammer fanasty or something to bring him that Eldar harem hes been wanting since Eldrad stopped talking to him, someone has to babysit his abandoned Sensei children lineages after all.

I agree with this conclusion. Guilliman was correct in his prediction of how warfare would be waged between 30,000-40,000. But that time has passed. Era Indomitus is characterized by every enemy the Imperium has gearing up for war. Tyrannids, Chaos, Tau, Necrons, Orks, (maybe not the aeldari. They're pretty chill compared to the others) are growing in strength and the Imperium needs to be able to bring its full might to bear.

The dark imperium books show the internal struggle he has with the decisions he made at that time and his regret at doing so without considering the long reaching consequences that could result from those decisions.

A little yes, a bit no Defense =/= Offense, so it helped defend the (remains of the) Imperium, but also made it much harder to push major offensive actions

@Merrorh

Жыл бұрын

A lot of yes, I think. Second founding was a conservation and preservation of Imperium - and it still stands after 10000 years, despite the insane inner and outer pressure. That was it's purpose, and it was fulfilled - IRL, there aren't any even thousand year state without a revolution or ten, after all.

@Sephiroth144

Жыл бұрын

@@Merrorh I think the biggest misstep was not organizing a "command" Chapter for each former Legion; one that would be, essentially, guiding them in times of crisis (that could coordinate with other Imperium forces and deploy individual chapters, or even call up large numbers of chapters, as the situation dictated). (Its possible these exist and I missed the lore on them.) (Well, that and not establishing a robust, independent communications division; hell, base it on the Pony Express if need be, but something that would be constantly relaying signals at fixed intervals so intel would be reasonably consistent...)

@Merrorh

Жыл бұрын

​@@Sephiroth144 any "command" chapter would be a recipe for power consolidation and possible repeat of the Heresy events. Besides, we are talking about huge super-muscular and hyper-hormonal dudes, who, lets suggest, were told to obey their equals: first misstep and they would rise to arms, globally. That's what basically happened in Space Wolves/Grey Knights altercation on the Armageddon: one chapter with full might of the Ordo Malleus in the back, other is basically unbroken legion, and the worst didn't happen only due to the Grimnar wisdom/author's will. As for the communication - that is not the legion problem, that is the Imperium's problem. They simply do not have any good alternatives.

@korben600

11 ай бұрын

Actually I’d argue that’s two wins. The imperium was already absurdly large and bloated by the end of the great crusade, giving people an incentive to make that worse with constant wars of expansion was not a good idea. Keeping chapters small means you can call for help, but you can’t summon them for a crusade unless shit was REALLY going down.

People forget that the legions were already breaking into chapter sized units during the great crusade which had there own culture and personality. Many became there own chapters after the codex was enforced. Also the unforgiven the great companies and the last wall proved that exceptions to the codex were common even at the offset.

"Maxim 70. Failure is not an option - it is mandatory. The option is whether or not to let failure be the last thing you do." It is impossible to protect even chapters from corruption. So the best you can do is minimize how far the rot can spread. Compartmentalize the damage.

You made a good point of mentioning the codex's perks in aiding such a small and detached organisation operating efficiently. Perhaps what is needed to build bigger formations without over straining logistics is to construct a larger and more collaborative Astartes leadership crossing chapters. For example, a section of space is given to the wardership of a 3 chapters, something that is pretty common in the imperium, and construct a command structure intermixed of officers from differing chapters and have them or organise or forcefully organise them into an efficient leadership to command the full scale might of a couple chapters in a warzone.

It is a relic of 10k years ago, legions are needed now more than ever. Watch the dark angels, they have basically reformed in the wake of the lion returning

To use the Swedish word, nja. It was right to dissolve the Legions, but the maximum size of the chapters was set too low (I'd personally have doubled it, to give more of a margin of survival for chapters brought to the brink).

Well said, I think your points concerning force multipliers is sound, and Guilliman being more diplomatic? Lol thats a non-starter for sure! Also thank you your generosity e.g. the closed alpha codes, amazing.

"Special field investigation" as in having heck of a fun time riding on TANKS!

keep up the good work, and great quality. also are we getting Stellaris Invicta season 3?

It is likely that if you gave him the knowledge of hindsight, Guilliman would have kept a legion or two for the times where they are needed, but certainly there would only be one or two at most; and even then, it'd likely be comparable to a federation of chapters that keep in close proximity with each other, not unlike the Black Templars. He also might have made the chaptors a bit larger too. Maybe gave them an extra company or two.

If Marc was born on the south side of the 49th parallel. I am fully convinced he would be a very good army general. Probably helping to reform the military doctrines at the Pentagon for 21st century warfare or helping nations that deal with internal threats like Somalia, the Philippines or Romania have more effective armed forces. But since he was born on the wrong side. He's making high quality KZread videos. Good work still.

I am of the opinion at the time it was the right call. But now, even Gulliman has sorta reformed the 13th (his Legion) AND has reestablished The Relm of Ultramar. AND! Most recently....The Lion has returned and upon hearing about his Legion being broken up.....he was pissed. Of course, The Dark Angeles have never stopped operating as a Legion. And then there's The Black Templars....who basically use the Codex as toilet paper.

One point I’d like to add is that we as fans of the 40k universe tend to focus on the big battles and campaigns, the ones that often involve whole chapters or even multiple chapters. So of course we see the return to legion size and organization as a good thing. In the books, games, and other fiction we rarely see the small battles were one slave marine or even a squad of space marines operating alone deals with a small scale threat. But I’m betting that is the vast majority of battles the space marines end up fighting. That being said my own oc space marine chapter was definitely deviating from codex and larger than a thousand marines. So I’m a bit hypocritical there.

Nice episode more immerse and thoughtful

TTS Emperor put it best when describing his thoughts on the legions breakup. "You took the mighty bulwark of humanity and turned it into a run down picket fence a child could knock over."

Splitting the Legions was a good choice at the time. However, with all the chaos and war of the 42nd Millennium, increasing the Chapter size from 1,000 to something like 2-5000 may be a better solution. Yes, it would stretch the resources substantially, but it would assist in allowing the Chapters to strike at more fronts. Warp, even a re-emergence of a force like the elite human marines from the Heresy outside of the Tempestus Scions would have a larger impact on the Imperium.

Spliting the legions was both a good idea and a bad idea 1:forcing them to defend entire sectors as chapters was a bad idea Good idea 1:it stopped the most power hungry chapters wont take power

To put it simply: “To take a town, send a legionary; to take a city, send a squad; to take a world, send a company; to take a culture, send a Chapter.” The true strength of the Astartes is not their fighting prowess, it is the fact that each and every one of them (not chaos marines) have a genius level intelligence far, far superior to even the smartest humans in the Imperium.

@oddursigurdsson9637

Жыл бұрын

Why aren't astartes in the bureaucracy? It would make a lot of sense to have immortal demigod geniuses running things rather than humans. I've always kind of looked at them like brainwashed children with a ton of tactical knowledge but not really fit for politics, I could be wrong though I know they do that stuff in Ultramar but never really thought of them that much smarter than regular humans

I think you should have kept the legions but somewhat split the up into chapters like have a the chapters of said legion have a ruling council with each chapter master apart of it but they a have one of the chapter master as a legion master so it would still keep the legions unity and still have them cordinate better. The ruling council would probably be in the legion homeworld like maccrage where the legion master would rule from

imagine Tyrant of Badab with entire Legion at his call... I rest my case.

I think the smaller formations are adequate, Tyranid Hive Fleets call for something like a Defense in Depth, a broad deployment of Space Marine chapters that up the cost of the hive taking even a single world, once the Tyranid's galactic advance is halted, you start pushing it out with the other chapters. (in addition to other Imperium forces)

In the Night Lords Novels there was something called the Primogeniture in the 32nd Millennium that forced the Night Lords from Tsagualsa into the the Eye of Terror or scattered warbands. Talos, the protagonist, mentions that it was every Ultramarine successor chapter gathered for that specific purpose. What the Imperium may need now is the organizational infrastructure to allow that to happen more often. A threat is identified, special dispensation is given from Terra for the successor Chapters to reform to deal with this one threat for no more than X amount of time after which the Chapters return to their homeworlds. Though given the nature of the Imperium's bureaucracy that was probably not possible, at least until Guilliman's return, and now with the Lion's Return there may be a chance for more Chapters to adopt Dark Angel style of inter-Chapter communication and coordination, (guess The Fallen were useful after all).

Gorillaman knew selling toys would be the key to financing the war

I have give this question more thought then i should admit to an my answer is the order. A Space Maine order is 3-5 chapters (usually with a common gean seed) charge with the defense of a defense zone/sector or sectors. Where the senior ranking Astartis has command of any one engagment/campaign from start to finish. (Each order will have to figure that out on setup) this gives the Space Marines some depth when needed. It would be very fractis at the start but if paird well will rally to face a threat that needs that kind of response.

I believe that breaking down into Chapters were the best option, both after the Heresy and even now with the Leviathan arriving. A Legion would not be able to fight it back either efficient or fast enough before more forces were required. And by then a leader over two Legions which will create tensions and etc. By having several Chapters to fight against the Leviathan for example they can all focus on different locations, achieving similar goals but won't interfere with each other. Also let's not forget that other Primarch created protocols to unify their chapters if the need arise, such as the Last Wall for Imperial Fist.

I think something that would have to be established to support a restructuring of the organization structure of the Astartes Chapters into a more powerful and effective military force would also need to be a development of technology and research. They need to create an extra research branch institute within secure lines to support and advance the whole ageing infrastructure while dealing with ways to overcome the whole installation regulations of tech research and avoiding total tech heracy the Mechanicus abhore. You don't need Artificial intelligence for developing more effective weapon systems, armor, hulls, traveling, and gellar fields to protect against Chaos. As well as developing protocols and security measures and proactive firewalls of protecting and testing said research from Chaos influence or enemy inflitarations. Even if the Mechanicus take issue with the general idea of tech research and productive prioritization and improvements make to reassure and prove to them that what you are testing and intending to develop and utilize doesn't breach tech heracy and is meant to effectively adapt agaisnt the current issues and enemies of the Imperium of Man since current methods are not working. And if there are authority and sideline issues the Mechanicus or the Inquisition will have with this then it's best to keep such things outside their sphere of dominion while also keeping within the parameters of what their concerns would be. Such measures, research, and development are nessesary for the Imperium to overcome these increasing odds. The Imperium's military needs to new weapons, armor enhancements, better productive refineries, and factory productions, repairments, and equipment to more efficiently fight back, keep up, and adapt to the ever increasing dangers and capabilities of Tyranids, Chaos, the Necrons, and the Orks. The Imperium needs to establish develop better layers of defenses. Better optimization of it's abundance resources they have access to needs to happen. And they need to record and secure that research into better databases then they did before. Like keeping the records and blueprints in highly secured bulidings and complexes at terra and several other places. And they to make sure to protect them from highly dangerous groups like the Alpha Legion, radical Inquisitors, and Dark Mechanicus.

One problem I have with the setting is that while the focus is on the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard and other forces made of regular humans make of 99.99% of the Empire's military might. So the point that if the empire needs a larger military force for something they would not use the space marines is actually important.

I thought, at the time it was a good idea. The archenemy's legion had been shattered, and would probably never return. In the first book of the War of the Beast, which I believe was in the 32 millennium, it describes an imperium at the zenith of it power. So much so that some people think large scale conflict is a thing of the past. That only border skirmishes are in the future. In such an environment legions would be unnecessary. Chapters on the other hand could still be useful.

Something that just occurred to me, the total numbers. They had 20 legions at their peak and while specific numbers are awkward you could reasonably estimate about 2 million marines total at least. When they reformed it was into 1000 chapters of 1000. They never replaced the space marines losses of the Heresy. Had they been able to, legion or chapter, it probably wouldn't have mattered whether or not they were split.

The division of the legions is to be based on the military reforms of the Roman Empire in the 3rd and 4th centuries. It was to make responses to invasions more flexible and ALSO to remove from the direct command of generals entire legions that could rebel. There was also the reason that the Empire adopted a deep defense posture, absorbing invasions while preparing the fielded army for battle. In the context of 40k, it could be said that all these reasons apply.

It was definitely correct to break them apart at the time and now need them back together, though with some precautions against other forces that could attack them in their minds or souls. They probably could sustain more with limited gene seeds and it would just take some arm twisting to supply them. I should think that arm twisting would be easy for Guilliman to do. They do have the infrastructure to move those supplies and could retool some factories or construct new ones. And if somebody released the Emperor, well, then perhaps he could use his power to recover his physical form and take control again. At least he could take control after being fully caught up on events and the state of the Imperium by Guilliman.

(Black Templar fan here) "Hurumph!"

There’s one chapter and it’s successors that can have the equipment, structure, and leadership to become a legion and defend the imperium at full strength. The Dark Angels, the primarch is back, the structure is there, they have there own manufacturing capacity, and have tech that is on par with the dark age of technology, they are probably the only legion that can stand toe to toe with the tyrianids and Necrons and have a chance

@spencervance8484

Жыл бұрын

Ultramarines as well

IIRC the missing piece here is that Guilliman has a separate force for large scale combat. We see the practice in the Indomitus Crusade: He has a massive force of Primaris to fight the war, with them splitting off to replenish the beleaguered forces in each region as they travel through. I think I remember them mentioning that Guilliman even has a set army beyond the replenishing troops that is simply meant to be under the Lord Commander. The chapters work as surgical tools, like you've said, and then The Lord Commander wields the real might of the imperium in a massive crusading army.

When on the defensive you also have to remember that you don't have the initiative. If you sent a legion to a world and something goes wrong and they get surrounded you could lose an entire legion very quickly. This was the main reason why the Romans split up their legions so that it would no longer be possible for them to lose 10.000 soldiers in a single day to some kind of surprise attack. The splitting up in chapters means that even if something goes wrong your losses will remain moderate and recoverable. Having massive legions also provides a massive point of failure. If they get outmaneuvered and surrounded it would be a massive blow.

One ammendment could be lifting restrictions on recruitment. There can be at most 1000 full Battle Brothers, but any number of Scouts, Initiates and no restrictions on producing and storing gene-seed and spare Power Armour and weapons. That way when the time comes, the size of Chapters could be rapidly increased over a few decades.

The current way that most chapters align with their first founding parent chapter is good enouth.

Ultra hyped !

I think my only problem with the codex is the 1000 number limit, chapters should have been given the leeway to reach at least 5000 in number with each 1000 organized in the standard 10 company format. This would allow not only for defense but for chapters to take some initiative on serious enemy holdouts. How often do we hear about a crippled chapter having to spend the next 50 to 100 to 100+ years rebuilding or a chapter that lost its homeworld because it simply didn't have the numbers to deal, this would give the chapters the ability to take some losses and not have to slink off for the next 100 years rebuilding. imagine if Huron Blackheart had 5000 Astartes and the charnel Guards and Mantis Warriors during the Badab War, while 1000 is sufficient to deal with most issues a chapter is hardly ever at full strength, a single battle a chapter is bellow strength a good campaign and the chapter is bellow strength, a bad warp journey a chapter is now understrength or outright lost, so rarely is a chapter in "sufficient" numbers to sufficiently deal with anything always banking on some 1v 10 clutch strategy.

The fracturing of the Legions were arguably the right call even in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy. This was no longer a relatively small Imperium expanding outwards but an incredibly expansive and sprawling Imperium, far larger than during the Crusade, wherein a message could take decades to get from Terra to the other corner of the galaxy. In large stretches like this, the Imperium needs forces acquainted with the present conditions and context of that specific corner of the galaxy, able to take initiative, and act independently. It's a lot harder to get an entire Legion acquainted with a part of the galaxy and manage the affairs and supplies of all its constituent units, especially if constituent units cannot operate on its own/without being part of a larger formation, than it is to call together Space Marine Chapters in a specific region with their own supplies and all of which are typically already doctrinally compatible with one another anyway.

What I think may or may not have been the intention of Guilliman is that not everyone follows the Codex Astartes. For example: Ultramarines - 1000 marines broken into 10 companies - Great at dealing with "smaller" threats, where a legion, even a part of it, is an absolute overkill. Space Wolves - more than 1000 marines broken into more than 10 companies - Good at dealing with bigger threats, where a chapter may be needed in other places, or a chapter isn´t enough - they have Great Companies. Black Templars - possibly as big (or bigger) than a legion, who the fuck knows how many crusades - Yeah, if you *really* need to clean something and make sure it never goes there again. Just tell them there is something, they *will* find enough marines.

from a drop kick to a finger jab, the space marines everybody.

I suggest a compromise... only those Chapters that are under the direct control of a Primarch be allowed to grow to legion strength. The presence of regular Chapter sized contingents would still be needed to handle individual/low key conflicts that need a more precise response rather than a full sized hammer to smash a shoe nail.

look at all those keys damn. i'm not gonna take one cause im not really interested but the institute is very generous

We don’t even really need to imagine what it would look like if the legions weren’t broken up. The Space Wolves have remained mostly unified over the 10 Millenia, barring a few exceptions. Nowadays they have had to divide themselves into several chapter-sized “Great Companies”

@arjandosanj6131

Жыл бұрын

The wolves are nowhere near legion strength

@bloodbornduck9536

Жыл бұрын

You’re correct @arjandosanj6131 I think that helps reinforce the argument that the 42nd millennium Imperium would struggle to supply a full legion. I think the Space Wolves act as a fairly good example of what would happen if the legions weren’t divided

Politically it was critical to prevent the Imperium from becoming the Transhuman Imperium.

The threats that the Imperium face in contemporary times are far more numerous than pre-Heresy, and we can now only imagine how differently an Astartes Legion would better fare against these in a more blunt fashion. But the move from the Astartes becoming more surgical in their deployment rather than being the mainstay combat force of the Imperium allows them to do more with less. But I think the dismantling of the Legions into smaller Chapters was an issue of trust, or lack thereof, in the Astartes who for all their enhancements and advanced weaponry and psycho-conditioning and martial training were no less fallible and susceptible to falling to corruption.

As Luetin often points out, the vast majority of the fighting the Imperium does is putting down internal rebellions. It can be genestealer or chaos cults, but often it's just plain human rebellion against the horrid conditions most populations exist in. These are the kind of rebellions where even a singular space marine can cut the whole thing short by eliminating the rebellion's leadership with extreme prejudice.

The legions were created originally to start the conquest of the galaxy for an empire that was barely covering a single planet. As they expanded and got reunited with their primarchs, those legions became more than the initial tools of war against great odds; they were the means for their fathers to exert control over the Imperium in the name of conquest and martial glory. While Guilliman was able to exceed his own father wish with the ultramarines and the realm of ultramar, too many legions were just the means to express the worst tendancies or traits of some primarchs. The Horus Heresy was just the worst expression (or the centralisation) of those problems. It is a point to consider that not every primarch was commanding an equal number of astartes among themselves and this could decide the influence of each over the others and the imperium as a whole. Another point is, at the end of the Great Crusade, many legions weren't operating any longuer as a single entity as intended originally; captains were in command of companies (the equivalent of their initial numbers as a legion) dispatched on different war zones and some outbranched themselves away from their core-legion, even while being under the overall command of their own Primarchs. Gulliman surely recognised those companies would still be effective as a military force, but finally free from the influence of a Primarch who could order an entire legion around, and cutting the powerhouse of the remaining primarchs to influence the Imperium as it got governed more and more by humans, thus freeing many Imperial units that were nothing more than auxiliaries to the legions during the Great Crusade. Guilliman was right at the time to disband legions that exceeded their initial roles because of their success during the Great Crusade and became political tools for the primarchs, or ways to influence the Imperial Army. Reforging the current chapters into the legions of old would be arduous, especially without the influence of a Primarch for each of them, as most developped their own traditions and ways of warfare in the last 10k years. The initial return of them could be a loose confederacy for a specific menace of area/sector of operations. I don't believe the first formed legions would be a contrains for the Imperium (the empire of a million worlds), unless they go inside areas were ressources are very limited or went in severe attrition campaigns (which is mostly what the Imperial Guard do at worst - and that can be better recovered than with elite transhuman forces). Bringing the legions back could also be a political nightmare, as the leaders of the Imperium may not want the transhumans to regain their lost influence, prestige and power in the Imperium. Some may also try to influence them as tools for their own ambitions. The possibility for them to build their own fiefdoms on sectors of space like Guilliman did with ultramar can't be ignored. However, the Imperium of 42k may be on a worse predicament than during the Horus Heresy and maybe it is time for the legions to come back for their initial roles. Maybe Guilliman would allow legions to build their own equivalents of the realm of ultramar around the galaxy as a mean to build 'strategic castles' in space and hold back the tides.

In my honest opinion, it would have been better to have both Chapters and (smaller) Legions. Each Sector of the Imperium should have its own Chapter for area defense. Meanwhile, the Legions should be kept albeit in a somewhat reduced size (somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 Astartes, with 100,000 as a hard limit) so as to form a large mobile reserve for both offense and defense.

Honestly, he was right, chapters are more adaptable that a legion could ever be, not only that but a concentrated force like a legion could struggle to hold all the territory of the imperium. keeping one legion of a relatively small size around (5k astartes or probably less) may have been good for some offensive crusade might have been a good idea, but logistics may be complicated on that.

Hey what about an in depth lore on the tau empire from Warhammer 40k

After lore wasn’t real I am shocked this channel still covers said lore.

So many comments and nobody says a word about the bait and switch of having committed the classic blunder of … ignoring Chaos?! I had to double take when it wasn’t ‘fighting the last war.’ Well done. Some of us noticed.

wow, 20 minutes late and the key i tried worked. thanks a ton.

Templin Institute stimulation of certain battle/ siege, like the Star Wars task force video, any chance?

another guilleman roman parrarel as diocletian broke up the legions into new 1000 strong units.

The Romans refused to station a full Consul or Stratego in Egypt, considering it too valuable to risk. And too powerful for a rebel. As such it was partioned in two, dividing the authority, and the military power under single men's command. If a chapter defects, it is a major problem. Two or three other chapters are rallied against them. If a legion defects, it is a catastrophe.

I have in my own stories gone with the idea of the Legio Astartes. One Legion. However. That does not mean that it's best, as the way it was done is to combine the training of the various Legions into a single package. Basically, think Deathwatch style units, where each Chapter's chosen method of war may be swapped out per individual squad member or by each unit section as needed. Space Wolf for melee, Imperial Fist for Bolter Drill, Dark Angel for snap shots, Ultramarines for tactics and overall unit coherency. Available sections are: Marine, Fire Team, Combat Team (Half Squad), and Squad. Max 12, not 10, as it's more effective, overall. I guess it'd be one Chapter doctrine per phase, so that it's simple enough to track for a player equivalent commander. Also, The Adepta Sororitas were put in as well, just as a force elevated after the Sisterhood is granted the earned right to the implants. The Imperial Guard is now the Republic's Guard, and they have a small set of implants and hard training, while the original Guard Regiment I'd have to type up, however, they're +1 Wound for their Regimental Doctrine point. Also, using 8th Ed. style points, 6 points total. 4 base Guardsman, +1 pt. Combat Knife, +1 pt. BS, +2 pts. Longlas, added to Lasgun, and then -2 pts. for 8th Ed. points adjustment. In 8th and prior WH40K, it looks like all armies were to be, "Every 4 points, get a free point." So at 8 it's 11 total. Not all armies were made that way, and is why the editions keep changing.

@hafor2846

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Phew. At least you aren't a writer for GW...

All he needs to do is tell the Black Templar they dont have to hide their numbers anymore.

Honestly, even during the Great Crusade, the concept of a "united Legion" is somewhat phantastical. During the Great Crusade, the main thrust of the Imperium's efforts were organized around the Expeditionary Fleets. Those fleets were not even always built around Astartes, and when they were it was rarely more than a company or two. Changing those companies to Chapters is just making official what already was. That said, I support contingencies like Dorn and the Imperial Fists' Last Wall Protocol as a means of potentially unifying the Legions for some serious threat later on.

I think he didnt have a choice. At the end of the Heresy, he had brothers who were distrustul of each other, a shattered Imperium, rogue elements everywhere so the best bet is to minimize as much as possible. Now in M42, bring the Legions back baby.

He(Bobby G) had the imperial navy launch codexes at my cruiser -Dorn

The biggest issue with trying to reform the legions would be that Guilliman would control over 2/3 of all space marines. People would assume he wanted to take over and no other legion succesor chapters would want Ultramarine geneseed mixes with their own.

The Black Templars are basically legion sized.