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This is absolutely spot on. Obviously, the high larynx position gives a trade-off, which is that the super high notes are easier to grasp, since the voice lacks weight/darkness/scuro. However the price is a smaller sound and a lot of ugly side effects that even untrained ears can hear, like vobble or tremolo, which is not vibrato, and weak low notes. Also, the singer doesn’t get the full potential out of her true voice and is highly likely to sing in the wrong fach and repertoire. Also, in order to make the sound darker, many singers modify the vowels instead of just… letting larynx go down with the inhalation and keeping clear vowels. With constriction, the voice suffer and may greatly shorten the singers career. It’s extremely important that young singers listen to the masters of old and learn to differentiate between sound productions ( as well as identifying true squillo.) And, in my personal taste, I don’t really like listening to overly bright singing, chiaro (lack of scuro). If Van Gogh made his paintings overly bright I certainly wouldn’t like them and I’m quite sure he wouldn’t be considered one of the greatest artists ever. Note: I myself have done all the mistakes above, so my intention is not to be better-knowing, snobby, superior or any of that. I’m talking out of concern and above statements is not to be viewed as instructions, it’s merely my own conclusions. Singers should be well-based in their decisions and take individual statements with a grain of salt.

When I was studying in NYC my teacher advocated a neutral larynx position, rested tongue, and relaxed jaw to achieve maximum resonance with a fully supported voice.

I think another part of this problem is confusion on terms and examples. For example, Callas’ ‘64 Covenant Garden Tosca vs her ‘53 studio recording. The one in ‘53 has a much lower larynx, better chest coordination, etc. I love the ‘64 recording for the musicality, but that’s about it. I think a lot of teachers and singers took that period of her singing as something to be replicated, you can hear a very similar wobble in her voice as some of the singers today. Her ‘58 Covenant Garden Traviata vs her ‘52 Mexico City is another great example. Mexico City is fantastic coloratura and low larynx singing, while she struggles more in the ‘58 recording. She even admitted herself that the wobble was a problem and fixed it in her final tour.

I've been a lifelong opera buff, and I'm 66 years old. I'm familiar with most of the arguments over lowered larynx versus singing in the mask vs. etc. etc. And, while there are definitely sopranos who come off better in this clip than others, the winners being Sierra and Rinaldi in my opinion, it would have been helpful if you had put titles over the various sections saying stuff like "this soprano is using a higher larynx" and "this soprano is using a lower larynx" and "this soprano is doing A which causes problems" and "this soprano is doing B which results in superior tone" and so on. Without that, I really have no idea what you're getting at, or what you're trying to show us. And I'd definitely like to know! Thanks.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

I thought it would be obvious. I didn't realise how many people would struggle with it. I think I will do another version with explanations. I will share you the link when I make the new video..

@chriggsiii

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers Thanks. I'll look forward to that.

@contraltissima

2 жыл бұрын

@@iloveyoufromthedepthofmyheart we hear this so often, and it becomes not more intelligent by repeating it. Its a stupid NO point. Who has not educated ears will not hear it, no matter which points he makes. Who has the knowledge and educated ears will hear it. its this simple.

@draganvidic2039

2 жыл бұрын

@@iloveyoufromthedepthofmyheart I can’t sing but it’s nothing wrong with my ears…

@iloveyoufromthedepthofmyheart

2 жыл бұрын

@@draganvidic2039 and I can sing and there is also nothing wrong with my ears

Merci! Very instructive!!!

Easiest thing to observe is that the moderns get to a certain point around G, and everything beyond gets thin and wobbly. The voice loses all individual character. Rinaldi’s sound remains substantial and vibrant - and no wobbling, the worst and most common modern vocal flaw.

The clean, crisp, bright nature of Rinaldi's voice is indicative, too, of the aesthetic of the time. (I'm a soprano who sings this particular rep!) These roles today are typically "coached up" to be far more dramatic, in terms of vocal size, than what might have been 50 years ago. These arias are also the BEGINNING of the night for these sopranos. The rest of these roles progress into a marathon of duets, trios, death scenes. Although I don't know Nadine and Lisette personally, I have followed their careers and know that they continue to coach and refine as long as they are in demand, which they definitely are. Thank you for starting this dialogue on the subject. A neutral/floating larynx in the best larynx!

THANK YOU! This must be revealed

Margherita Rinaldi was my teacher ❤ Some of my best years were in Florence.

@lutandomhlalase4416

4 ай бұрын

How was she? 🥺😯

@brulhilde

4 ай бұрын

She was well in her seventies and she would sit in a chair next to the piano reading a magazine while I was studying repertoire with her husband who was a co-repetitor at La Scala back in the days, and you would think she was not really listening while reading her magazine until once, when I was struggling with a high pianissimo, she would put the magazine down and without warming up her voice out of thin air, she would sing this gorgeous silver high b flat in pianissimo. That is real technique!!! I will never forget the moment! And she would often talk about colleagues with the highest respect. She absolutely adored Pavarotti and was very sad when he passed away. What a Lady she was! @@lutandomhlalase4416

Never heard of applause before the end of Caro Nome - gave me chills.

I'm sorry but as someone who's actually seen Nadine Sierra live - it's not only a voice that actually projects remarkably well but a voice that actually does the opposite of what you say here. Her larynx is too LOW. Her larynx is much lower than Oropesa and Rinaldi who both use a fairly natural raised larynx position but of course Rinaldi is much better than Oropesa (who despite all still has an actual trill which is surprising). The difference you don't acknowledge is that Rinaldi uses far more twang on top of having a raised soft palate and keeping her tongue relatively high. Oropesa is not doing this exactly. And Nadine doesn't have enough twang.

I really appreciate your effort to both educate AND engage in respectful dialogue. It is evident in your responses. I think what might be setting some people off is the use of the word ‘Poor’ in the title (although I know what you are getting at). Perhaps ‘Flawed’,’ Problematic’, or ‘Inefficient’ might be more constructive words to use. Unfortunately, there are “classical music/opera snobs” out there, some of whom don’t know what they are talking about, and some of whom do but are over-the-top in their preachiness (we know who these people are on KZread). So that’s probably why some people are a bit defensive. Just a thought. In any case, thanks for the great videos.

@JacquelineLanceTenor

2 жыл бұрын

It's ok, we know you're talking about the "This is Opera!" crowd lol.

I loved this. Really appreciate your efforts to make this video.

I know very little about Opera so I had trouble catching your point. In the last video your captions really helped me follow the point you were making. I would have appreciated captions here too. To me, someone who does not listen to opera regularly, they all sounded great for different reasons. Like, yes the crisp clear voice was nice, but it also hurt my ears sometimes. I liked the other singers where I could hear the notes withoit wincing. So i think it would have been helpful to know exactly why their singing techniques are wrong.

You should have definitely prefaced forgotten with ‘unjustly’. Rinaldi’s voice is radiant. Thank you for the video.

La signora Rinaldi ha gli acuti con un vibrato VIVO , EMOZIONANTE, le altre sembra spoggiato, oscillante, o schiacciato

Primero que todo, gracias por tu vídeo informativo e ilustrativo. Queda claro que Oropesa y Sierra tienen un canto desordenado evidenciado en los sonidos secos y tambaleantes que emiten. Las dos sufren de tensión en la parte del cuello y quizás en la nuca. Por el contrario Rinaldi canta con orden y naturalidad, además se le entiende más lo que canta y lo hace sin tensión, sus sonidos son bellos y con color. Muy buen vídeo y muy buenos ejemplos.❤❤❤❤saludos cordiales.

Oh and btw the high larynx is to help with control. As you can here with a more open throat you have more tendencies to be sharp on high notes. So...

Very good video. The other point if I may add is the longevity of their careers. As the old Italians use to say “sing off the interest not the capital”

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

Жыл бұрын

I am glad you can hear. So many cannot. I think the saying has been misunderstood as time has gone by. So many teachers seem to think that it means to sing more disconnected and off the voice. Light and easy. The Definition can still mean the singer should sing in full voice. just with the minimal amount of effort to achieve the action. Melba said something of the same. You can hear from recordings of Nellie Melba. She sang full and was quite engaged when the parts of the music required it. I tend to think in terms of function and efficiency. I think if you are doing things correctly with a minimal amount of constriction with good support you can sing well for a long time. The voice should stay healthy and fresh. Singing is muscular. Doing less does not serve the muscles well. You can hear that with Renee Fleming. As she got older, she sang lighter and with a lot of floating tones. The voice in her fifties lost any quality she might have had before. Even Caballe did too much floating singing and she lost the quality she had when she sang more robustly. I think balance is a key. I think I read that Gigli would warm up in full voice, half voice and falsetto. Working all aspect of the voice to keep it fresh. It was said of Gigli that he sang every note like it would be the last note he would ever sing. I am preparing a whole bunch of new videos. So please Like and Subscribe. And click on the Bell icon to get notifications. Only 11% of my Subscribers see my new videos. The Bell Icon is important. KZread sucks. It really has put me off making videos.

@BeastBeauty12

Жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers you are so right. There is a fabulous tenor who has done some videos at 100 because he didn’t push and thats where the real beauty of the sound comes

Finally, I agree. High larynx head voice is quiet and terrible. It makes the resonance shift from chest impossible, and the feeling of weightlessness in the fullest tone not happen. If the singing voice was supposed to feel heavy and effortful, no one would want to sing. The ones who train with a high larynx are missing out on how free the voice can be. It should just float out, not be pushed and shoved toward a stricture.

I like Rinaldi. It comes of bigger and the vibrato is faster and steadier

Margherita Rinaldi era un soprano bellissimo, ma non un star di fama mondiale. Ma canta molto meglio che gli "star" di oggi.

It is a very obvious difference. Even if the "thinner" sound the recent sopranos strive for today is more of your taste, you cannot deny that their chest voices are completely unstable, their breathing is all over the place and that the sound has a more "upward" projection rather than "forward".

I was wondering how/for sure recording instruments were different before and so picks up sound differently. I noticed that modern opera singers seem to leak more "air" through the chords and it sounds that ssss haaa sound, that I too am a victim of and very stressed atm.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

Жыл бұрын

Airy sound is common. Development of the Chest register will help with cord adduction. I do not think one should purposely try to manipulate the cords directly, though. The subtleties of all the muscles working together to achieve function are too minute for us to interfere in a good way. I prefer my students to allow the sound and air to release together to make sure there is sufficient freedom of function. As a student develops more the function is more efficient. The ideal goal is balance and freedom. It is easy to go too much either way. Practice your chest voice on Ah and Eh within a comfortable range and this should help you. You can then also use Ah and Eh in a speaking intention (find words if they help like, Are We,) to introduce more chest and connection to the head voice sound. OO, Or and EE vowels encourage more headier sounds. You can watch my videos on, "What is Head voice" and "What is Chest voice" to understand.

@Shamsithaca

Жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers Thank you very much for the detailed and clear explanation. I hope what you say is correct for me as well, in that as my chord closure and breath underneath become more efficient that the amount of air expelled becomes more controlled/less and the chords thin middle edges just come into a slight contact enough to make a good, healthy sound with a good dark core and natural formants for my voice.

Rinaldo is the best. She sounds somehow both more mature&darker and lighter, meaning it sounds like she has an easier time controlling her voice. The two others have a bit of a wobble. At 3:07-3:15 you can definitely hear the difference in their voices on that high note. Rinaldo sounds wonderful.

@hodgrix

6 ай бұрын

Yes she is effortless! And yet also has a much fuller voice and a firmer handling of the music

If the larynx is high and constricted the sound will be small and pinched and will not bloom. If the tone has width and fullness the larynx is not lifted and constricted. Think of being choked and squeezed off...some singers push their larynx down. The larynx must be in the neutral position. If you can crescendo and diminuendo it is correct.

@1stdivaofkiff50

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Yes, the larynx needs to be neutral. Younger singers whose voices are too light and/or undeveloped artificially darken their voices to sound bigger by depressing the larynx with the back of the tongue. This creates tongue tension, distorted vowels, and early onset wide vibrato. And a homogenous sound... can't tell one from another.

@jimbuxton2187

3 жыл бұрын

@@1stdivaofkiff50 thank you! The hardest thing to do is to keep the tongue high in the back but SOFT and LOOSE! Such pains singers must endure to attain perfection of technique which is unobtainable!

@1stdivaofkiff50

3 жыл бұрын

@@jimbuxton2187 so good to hear comments from someone who knows what they're talking about 👍😃

@jimbuxton2187

3 жыл бұрын

@@1stdivaofkiff50 thank you so much! I get dissed by so many people, You made my day!

@jimbuxton2187

3 жыл бұрын

@@1stdivaofkiff50 thank you for your support. .. that's hard to get in this forum! Also on the point of vibrato, it should be close, and somewhat fast, 6 to 8 oscillations per second like they had in the 1950's! This slows somewhat with age, but should never be so noticeable as to be the main component we hear. The tone should be firm but free and somewhat shimmery and the Pitch and Tone should be formost! Do you agree?

I do appreciate your work and I think it's vital in order to make the opera have at least a hope of surviving in a decent form. But I don't always get the point you're trying to convey and would need it to be more explicit.

Off the top it sounds is much thinner

The audio is fantastic ! ( Great idea to have the large font ; even better, having someone read the words ! ) Directors should not be allowed to direct singers who place them on their backs, especially when the trills come. Margarita Rinaldi sounds wonderful in the earlier film-footage ; better than the others (imo). Her voice was crystal clear, beautiful & the trill at the end of _Caro Nome,_ MAN ! The other singers ( in passages ) seem to be screaming too much. ( Where is Part I ? )

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/d62BrdKRZrKulqw.html

@cliffgaither

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers :: THANK YOU !

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@cliffgaither Nice to have people appreciate what I do. These videos take a lot of time and effort to do. My point is not to attack anyone. But to demonstrate better aspects of technique. If people do not know the difference they accept something as how it should be. I hope you enjoyed the other video. I will add more to the series.

@cliffgaither

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers :: Thank you for your hard work. If people like you didn't educate people about this Art we all love, we would be accepting less & less w / o knowing it AND ticket prices going up and up ! Yes ! The other video was just as educational ; especially the "hahaha" reference. It happens all the time, especially in Baroque singing.

But what causes the high larynx in these examples? I highly doubt it's something that these singers are being encouraged to do. Is it the placement method? Or a lack of breath restraint?

@gummypusswatterson1322

3 жыл бұрын

could be more things than one. to me it seems like they think they aren't singing with a high larynx or they just don't think it's too much of an issue therefore they don't think it needs fixing so they rely on that (or other things like the "mask", idk) instead of proper support. sure, better appogio would fix it, but it's not the only piece of the puzzle. there might be other issues that cause this strain that need to be resolved and not just breath support. im not a professional though, this is just an educated(?) guess based on the knowledge i have (which isn't that broad yet)

@pammyjones1151

3 жыл бұрын

Gummypuss Watterson please forgive my ignorance but what is idk please...

@tg92277

3 жыл бұрын

@@pammyjones1151 I think they mean "I don't know" :)

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

Every voice has to be taken on their own. Placement can be a cause. Support can also be a cause. The wrong vocal concepts of sound can be a cause. The Larynx is a suspended organ. It sits on top of the trachea and is suspended by ligaments and muscle and fascial tissue etc. The physical body if the larynx needs to maintain this free, let go suspended physicality no matter what vowel, pitch, or volume sung. Singing is not an imposition of the mechanism. We do not squeeze, inhibit, push, lift or press on the mechanism to cause it to vibrate. Corelli said, if you push down onto the larynx it will act like a ball on water and push back. Force is not the answer. A balance and equilibrium in singing is key. Too high or too low are going to create an immediate imbalance. The high larynx is just not high and squeezed. But it is also depressed. Because the body is trying to rebalance itself. Newtons law. "Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction". Push one way you get an equal pull the other way. Push your voice forward you are going to get a counter action. This creates an increased conflict. Muscles that should not be involved in singing come into play. The mechanism seizes up more. The voice gets more fatigued. Notes get harder to sing especially higher and lower ones. Constriction compounds more constriction. Remember, that the throat is primarily a constrictive mechanism. When you swallow, the constriction of the throat moves the food and saliva down. These muscles should not be employed in singing. An open throat is related to the freedom and efficiency of vocal function. Also, the physical space in the pharynx. The larynx rises when the freedom is affected. People get many things wrong about singing. An important concept to understand this, is. We do not make our sound by manipulating the body. i.e. Holding this, and placing that, and forcing this. etc. We choose the sound we go for and *allow* our body to make the adjustments. If we don't do this. Constriction comes into play. The mechanism is very efficient and fluid. We impose on it and make it harder to function. It is like trying to walk with Someone holding onto your left leg and someone else holding onto to your right arm And you have to try to walk dragging them along. You can still walk. But it is not the potential and ease of the action. Many teachers seems to create these impositions for students. Int he long term they degrade the voice very quickly. I hope this helps. :D

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@tita4359 You shouldn't use the muscles in a way that it was intended for. That swallowing process. That is clearly a constricted action. I am not fully aware of the individual actions. It is clear the swallowing action closes the pharyngeal space and raises the larynx. The tongue does not behave the same way with swallowing and with singing. The mechanism is very flexible to make all sorts of actions. But for classical singing lifting the larynx and constricting the pharynx is a complete no no. You can make all sorts of sounds at various degrees of constriction or freedom. The point is to make it without constriction. Actors make the sound they do probably because they choose the sound they want to make. Not by manipulating the body but allowing the body to change to make those sounds desired. If they do it wrong they will not do it this way and they will constrict. Actors are not the standard of what is correct or not. The vocal mechanism potential is. Free from any form of constriction and inhibition. Corelli's comment is a subjective one. It could mean many different things to different people. Watch the Joseph Shore clip I posted. What matters most is the mechanism behaving as free and efficient as possible. The mechanism i.e. the motor is reliant on the fuel. The breath. The relationship of the air and function is important.When the mechanism is free and efficient it works with ease with no or little fatigue. Nothing then is hard to produce.

Rinaldi goes astray intonation wise at 2:00, so maybe not the greatest example, but she is certainly an impressive voice. I do worry about Oropesa’s wobbly high notes and fluttery low notes - extremely unusual. She makes it work somehow and it adds a character to her voice, but I worry it won’t end well. I was impressed when I heard some of her recent Mozart disc though.

@elektra9474

3 жыл бұрын

If she can sing Mozart without making your throat ache in sympathy, she must have a reasonably sound technique. Mozart is imo, - along with Wagner - the most difficult music for singers to master. A cast iron technique is needed for both.

@jimbuxton2187

3 жыл бұрын

@@elektra9474 yes..... because they are so transparent every annoying flaw shows up easily and is amplified. Carol Vaness did an early mozart recording and her tremolo was very distracting. Later she studied and refined her technique.

@elektra9474

3 жыл бұрын

@@jimbuxton2187 Wagner singers without a solid technique and insufficient squillo tend to shout and force their voices.

@greatmomentsofopera7170

3 жыл бұрын

@@elektra9474agreed, almost no ideal Mozartians or Wagnerians. But what about Strauss? The balance between Legato line, and detail in the word setting, colour and volume, exceptionally difficult, usually only one or two sopranos per generation who has truly mastered it. And the super human demands of the assoluta Rossini/Bellini/Donizetti roles - again almost no one has managed to do it. Massenet’s soprano roles also need the utmost finesse and vocal expertise, very often sung badly.

@elektra9474

3 жыл бұрын

@@greatmomentsofopera7170 Yes, Strauss is also very difficult to sing well. Massenet's operas were written for Sybil Sanderson - a 19th century American soprano - who must have top class vocal technique, otherwise Massenet would not have chosen her as his muse. In fact, all the composers we have discussed must have had singers who could do it, otherwise they would not have written the music as they did. Just think about Mozart's killer aria, Martern aller Arten - ideally needs the vocal agility of a coloratura combined with strength in middle and lower register. Who can do that nowadays? Why does singing technique seem to have deteriorated - or is it just me being old-fashioned?

There’s just no foundation in the voice for these modern singers. It makes them all soft grained and constricted. Sad, because it’s not like the don’t have good raw instruments. But they’ve been taught wrong their entire lives.😢

To my amateur ears it seems to me that intentionally singing with high (or low for that matter) larynx, causes the voice to sound constricted and tense. Putting the modern divas side by side with the former age, I realise I become tense in the throat myself as if again again wondering "will they be able to sing the high note?....) So afterwards I am exhausted myself. I don't get that with Rinaldi. I truly enjoy those soft higher notes that are nevertheless vibrant. Even though I don't like the ringing vibratoes of opera in general.

@micaelat3734

10 ай бұрын

It seems to me that modern vocal technique has it backwards. Focusing on a relaxed jaw, free floating head on top of the spine and relaxed shoulders, the larynx will naturally do what it needs to. What I dislike especially is when some of the singers go low, there is almost no resonance there. As if they simultaneously swallow while singing a b3, for example. Why does that happen?

@KajiVocals

6 ай бұрын

High larynx isn't the problem here. The video does not acknowledge the technical issues.

Now listen to Freni sing this aria… that is a pure, open, rich voice!!

La comparaison est édifiante en effet .On trouve chez la Rinaldi une voix saine ,naturelle ,sonore ,capable de nuances sans le moindre effort avec une belle homogénéité jusque dans l'extrême aigu .Oropesa et Sierra ,sont correctes mais leurs voix sont petites ,manquent de nuances ,de couleurs et de projection .En plus de cela leurs voix semblent se désincarner dans le suraigu .

Your older example keeps going sharp, so it’s not really a great standard by which to judge others.

Woof…Sierra sounds fine at times but it’s generally inconsistent. In terms of Oropesas’ vibrato, yeah it’s absolutely an issue when one part of the range has a wobble and the other is more fluttery. I myself have a vibrato that’s naturally faster, but i also have an issue with keeping the support through a whole phrase or sustained note so I can tell when my support bottoms out because my vibrato becomes more fluttery than normal and I can feel the sound coming from my throat instead. On the other hand…ability to adjust vibrato speed to style/genre is also a good indicator of technique. I’m not saying naturally having a faster or slower vibrato is always indicative of faulty technique, sometimes it is, but one must listen for good relaxation in the throat and that good ol’ diaphragm support. But I’m terms of crossing genres, vibrato speed absolutely needs to be adjusted. My best examples are the folk/country idiom which a faster vibrato is needed for the style, and then there’s the RnB and most jazz idioms which needs a slower vibrato. Knowing how to adjust and when is useful if you’re a genre crosser. Not saying that Sierra and Oropesa are, but it’s clear that’s there’s some wobble issues that are clearly from some constriction.

The high larynx sound is a major turn-off, especially in recordings. The high notes might be there, but they're totally boring, colorless and dull. I can listen to Lisette Oropesa sing, but the high notes doesn't have any effect, and high notes only worth something when they are very beautiful or when they create some kind of dramatic effect.

I'm not much a fan of soprano voices, though there are some exceptions. I would, however, not feel my money was poorly spent if Opressa and Sierra were the stars of whatever opera/recital I attended. Despite the distortion that must be the case of videos over the net, and the tech lack of the comparative recordings from the 1935, I sense a deeper, fuller sound in Rinaldi. Now how much of that is "nature" and how much proper vs improper training would have to be some bit of a guess as one isn't inside their throats looking at the what their larynx is doing. I am aware of teachers who concentrate their teaching on "mask resonance" as opposed to "open throat"/higher in the mask resonance which I may have discovered on my own as a way of going "up and over" to reach higher notes as opposed to "pushing at them from below". Alas, there are headliners currently who have by-passed their "natural" voice for the impression of a deeper more dramatic sound....One can hear the desperate wobble that has resulted. I also am aware of recitals as part of the degree requirements at university schools of music that I wonder at how such inadequate training can be allowed....I reason cynically that students must keep coming for the profs to have a "position", but I find it very difficult to accept when trusting young voices are paraded unprepared into the video world....any performance actually....seems like the "4 year requirement leading to a degree becomes the goal in itself rather than the nurture of a voice.....

Not only does Ms. Oropesa sing distastefully, it is quite impressive that at such a young age she has a wobble in her high notes and a tremolo in the middle voice... It's quite the miracle IMHO.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

She is a lovely, Beautiful and talented woman. Her singing is weighted and thick by some of the constrictive issues. It is amazing that she manages to get by with such issues. I think it is catching up with her. Her voice is tremulous on the lower notes and wobbly at top. I was wondering why so many cannot here this? I am glad you do. You have always been a good supporter of this channel. Nice to see your comments as usual. People hear these thick sounds and think this is normal. It is due to a less efficient function.

to me it sounds like Rinaldi does not use her full cords in the high notes but just a small part of it. that is what I do and I am trying to fix it. also the vowel is too open and it sounds like screaming. I dont understand how people say this sounds better because to me it really doesnt. maybe it´s more a question of change in sound preferences rather than healthy singing. also the types of voices compared are in their nature very different

Peccato per Sierra, ha una buonissima voce, ma la tecnica è completamente sbagliata!

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

She has a lot of inefficiencies. Which make it harder for this type of music. Even her highest notes are not true head sounds. they almost go into a whistle sound. When she sings louder she constricts even more. So her voice sounds hard and labored and thick. This is not the desired sound of Great singing. This sound is now associated of what a singer should sound like. But is completely the opposite.

@roberto9003

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers your comment is appropriate and correct. When you sing with a hight laryng this is the result...it is a pity because she could sound better if she would change the approach of her singing..hight note are tight and tin..it is a pity! unfortunately today many teachers insist in this kind of sound that it's not correct and that does not give the complete natural sound of the voice

Personally I think all 3 singers sound great xD. Rinaldi's top note sounded a bit more free, but it's a very different voice.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

That is the problem. People cannot hear the differences. Many sounds made today are seen as normal. They are not. We become accustomed to them and then the appear normal. They have a lot of inherent constrictions. Many voices are labored in function. They give the appearance of being bigger and weightier voices. But that is not how the voice should sound. You can hear issues with intonation, freedom,wobbles, squeezing, screechy, and depressing etc. All signs of less efficient function. "A bit more"? I think you need to listen again. And even see the constriction.

@flaze3

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers You need constriction to be able to sing at all. All singers use constriction in order to project. There are of course right and wrong ways of doing it, but none of these singers sounded like they were choking themselves. When you actually hear that, you really know it's happening.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@flaze3 You are conflating muscular tension with constriction. Muscles tense to act. Constrictions prevents the function of singing from occurring uninhibited. It is like you trying to walk down the street. Walking is the uninhibited action. The constricted inhibited action is when you are walking dragging someone holding on to your leg, and someone else is holding on to your arm pulling you the other way. You can still move forward. But not to the potential you are made for. Constriction limits the functionality of the vocal mechanism and surrounding areas. It is the wrong parts coming into play and getting in the way of the function of another part. If you sing well you feel hardly anything in the throat. The more you feel the more constriction you have. Who said chocking themsleves? Their constrictive actions are limiting their vocal potential. The vocal mechanism needs to make adjustments as it ascends the scale. If these do not occur efficiently the voice gets stuck and weighted. High notes become effortful and a wobble sets in. As in the video. Can you not hear the wobble int he higher notes? look at 3:18. Look at her body. It is like she has a stiff neck. You can see the raised larynx. You can hear the squeeze in the sound. Ill use your phrase. "When you actually hear that, you really know it's happening".

@flaze3

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers actually in order to produce twang or squillo, you need to constrict the aryepiglottic sphincter, so yes, all singers need constriction.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@flaze3 Twang and squillo are not the same. So no. You cannot conflate the two.

I am not an expert on singing. But I felt that Rinaldi sings in a very standard way, and the other two people sings like... making an effort not to sing in a classical way. I hope they already master the classical singing and try find a way to sing different way. Personally I prefer the classical, standard way of singing: more clear, bright, and correct pitch etc

Those who can, do - those who can't, teach.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

2 жыл бұрын

And comment...

Praised for her vocal beauty, seamless technique, and abundant musicality, Nadine Sierra is being hailed as one of the most promising, young talents in opera today. She was named the Richard Tucker Award Winner in 2017 and was awarded the 2018 Beverly Sills Artist Award by the Metropolitan Opera. Having made a string of successful debuts at the Met, Teatro alla Scala, Opéra national de Paris, and Staatsoper Berlin, she has become a fixture at many of the top houses around the world. In 2018, Deutsche Grammophon/Universal Music labels released her debut album, “There’s a Place for us”, followed by a second album, Made for Opera, in 2022.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

Жыл бұрын

So? What does this have to do with the video?

@annagrzonka3704

Жыл бұрын

​@@RadamesAida2Operalovers he pastes this text under every video with Nadine😂

@Mirabelliana

7 ай бұрын

Sierra has a beautiful voice, but I think there is a difference to be heard between her technique and Rinaldo's. I'm not the best to describe what that is but I'd like someone more educated than me to articulate the difference.

It's a great selection; comparing professional singers. Singing in throat vs sul fiato. M. Rinaldi wasn't seen as a star or a diva, just an amazing professional singer. There is no strain in her voice and she easily manages both the sustained top notes and the fast staccati. On the opposite site, lies Lisette Oropesa, who shows a significant strain in her voice, at times wobble (especially at the top)...and watching her, one can notice the contraction of the throat muscles; sign of an almost closed throat singing. Therefore, the emission is "ingolata". Sierra lies in between them, but she also puts some pressure on larynx, therefore the sound is nasal, and it seems heavy, somehow unnatural. It's what we have nowadays mostly. Sad.

are you saying that Rhinaldi did it right? those high notes where squeezed out!there is nothing with a high larynx as long as it can go back down and generally be flexible. holding the whole of your larynx down while trying to reach really high pitches can also be traumatic for the voice

This video caught my eye because I do ascribe to a general lower tilt of the larynx to help singers (myself, and others I've taught and coached) to avoid vocal damage and tone issues -- but this video has a spirit of "classical singing legalism" that I would advise viewers to avoid. I was around this kind of thinking while I was studying, and let me assure you -- the vocal legalists are always around, with their "You should have done it this way, or that way" advice. If you get to know them (or, heaven forbid, you have to endure hearing THEM sing - ) - they typically have not done much, if any, singing in public - nor are they usually successful singers in their own right. They tend to use very hoity-toity, impossible comparisons to singers of the "golden era" to disdain everyone singing today - and sadly, they miss all the lovely singing that is happening on world stages today. What a miserable way to live -- to go around comparing every living singer to someone who is long dead - and who probably would never want people to idolize them in such a way. SO WHAT if a soprano isn't Renata Tebaldi, or if some tenor isn't Luciano Pavarotti? This kind of "dead singer worship" is why so many people sit in the audience with their faces all screwed up, disdaining the many joyous, youthful singers performing today... I have an idea: Let's get off our high horses and ENCOURAGE today's singers! This video does not help anyone - I gave it a thumbs down.

@chetmanley2462

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I agree with the message of this video but the execution is in very bad taste; I really can’t stand this kind of negativity. How can we expect opera to survive with so much toxicity in the fan base?

@wewper

3 жыл бұрын

OK, but just so we're clear, Margherita Rinaldi is still very much alive. 😜

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@chetmanley2462 What kind of "negativity" are you referring to? Why is it in "Bad taste"? Why do you classify this as toxicity? This is an educational video. If people do not know what are better and worse sounds. How will they learn? They will just copy the sounds because they think they are correct., And then they get themselves into a lifetime of vocal issues. Can you not see and hear the differences?

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

You have the right to interpret things the way you like. I think you are seeing something that is not there. You are obviously a pessimist. Please do not compare me. Who you do not know. To a conclusion you have formed of others. Look at the information objectively and judge it on its own merit like a rationale educated person. I clearly state that the better you sing the better the voice will perform and vice versa. I didn't say these singers were bad or good. They obviously got to the position they are at due to their vocal and intellectual talents. The objective of this series of videos is to point out undesirable technical flaws. This is a very confusing industry for many singers. Many have huge issue trying to differentiate between what they are told and what they see and hear and what is better or worse. They struggle with their own vocal faults. They try to seek help from any source to find a solution. Singing is a tradition. Things get passed on to the next generations. This includes bad habits and technical flaws. I don't know what "Golden era" means. If you think the 50's and 60's were the Golden era. Then what do you call the time of Caruso? Or the time of Farinelli? Both were periods classified as "Golden era". I purposely did not use the greatest singers for comparison because of mindsets like yours. I used a forgotten lesser known artists that was not seen on the same level as "First class" singers of the past. It is irrelevant, but, Rinaldi is still alive. You wrote, "impossible comparisons to singers of the "golden era" to disdain everyone singing today ". If something is impossible how did these people attain it? Show me me any evidence that I demonstrate "disdain" for singers today? There is clearly a gap between what I say and what you have interpreted. It is a fault in your reasoning skill. You wrote, " I have an idea: Let's get off our high horses and ENCOURAGE today's singers! This video does not help anyone - I gave it a thumbs down." What do you think my channel is about? Helping singers. Encouraging them to think more about their singing. Guiding them to what is better and what is not. That is why I created my Channel. There was no information out there for people desperate for help. You have every right do disagree with this process of delivering information. I have every right to do things as I see fit. I am glad you disagree. It will make people think more about the issues. Many people have disagreed with me in the past and some have written to me later on telling me how I changed the way they though about singing. They were very gracious about my contribution to the art form. If people are so quick to shut down any discourse it is a clear indication of the death and stagnation of the art form. Can I ask why is it wrong to compare? People do it intuitively. People have their favorite artists. Favorite Composers. Favorite Opera.Their favorite food. Their favorite clothing brand. Why do you make comparison as something evil? Why are ticket prices for Jonas Kaufman higher than a ticket price for someone else? What is scary for me. Someone who claims to be a teacher and coach cannot acknowledge the stark difference in the vocal comparisons, and support the idea we should not be trying to imitate this. As a singer and teacher myself. Hearing something incorrect makes it very hard for me to enjoy it. Like having salt in the cake instead of sugar. Can you not hear the irregular vocal actions. Vocal wobble. The screechy strident sounds? The closed throat. The tightness and vocal squeeze? The uneven sounds? The unevenness of vowels? The intonation issues? the lack of scuro? Hard pressed sounds. etc. Look at the visual signs. Look how relaxed and calm Rinaldi is. Go to 3:15 and look at Oropressa. It looks like she woke up with a stiff neck. I dint even mention the vocal interpretations. The use of expression and dynamics. The acting and staging. Rinaldi make you follow every single moment of her singing. It captivates the listener. That is why the audience goes wild before her aria is finished. One is recorded in a small Provincial opera house in Parma. The other, one of the greatest Opera house in the world, The Metropolitan. Thank you for your feedback. I encourage open debate and discussion. I am always willing to admit if I am mistaken.

@JacquelineLanceTenor

2 жыл бұрын

You said in better words than I've been able to manage so far exactly what I think about this topic. These videos made for the sole purpose of showcasing current day singers flaws does nothing to help anyone. Whether it's meant as educational or not, it is inherently negative. I simply don't believe that people who make these type videos don't realize that. I will never understand why some people seem to take such pleasure in tearing other artists down. What is the point? I've heard Nadine sing that role at The Atlanta Opera and, from where I was sitting, she sounded lovely. Expecting 100% perfection 100% of the time defies human nature. Humans are imperfect beings. We should be celebrating what people are bringing to the table rather than dwelling on their imperfections.

I don’t find these comments about LO or NS neither accurate nor helpful. Rinaldi wasn’t bad but she is hardly the epitome of an epic singer. Lots of biases in all these comments. It’s easy to find in KZread derogatory comments about practically any singer. Luckily, these modern day stars are in high demand and brushing off critics all the way to the bank. Good for them!

The tragedy of these young "stars" that they are absolutely confident that they are "great". They are not able to listen to Tetrazzini, de Idalgo, Nezhdanova and many other greats and analyze WHY they are much better. In their delusion they even pompously give master classes. High larynx isn't the only problem, here are other things like lack of coordination and chest participation, nasality, masking and so on. It's unbearable to sit through the whole opera listening to this ugly squeaky sound! I also find this connection: the worse the technique becomes in the opera world, the more pretentious acting and staging get.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

I do not know about the arrogant part. I am sure they do masterclasses because people pressure them to do it. And they want to help others. They all seem like very nice, good hearted people. I suppose there are also many factors involved in what these singers do. I think the industry has a lot of control. Coaches, teachers, conductors and every tom dick and harry telling them how to sing and what to do. Too much control. I think there is probably very little artistic discretion. That is why I teach my students to understand everything they do.They are in control of their craft. They can make rational decisions about their voice based on their understanding of function and process and not because someone famous said it. I agree with everything else you say. It looks like your a pianist. I am sure singers intonation issues must really hurt your ears? Good intonation and good technique are the same. It is not only intonation. Many sing the pitch. But the harmonic spectrum of the sound is not right. I am no expert in that. I do not know how to explain it correctly. I know I hear these harsh dissonant sounds. Not soft, mellow, rich sounds.

@cutepepy

3 жыл бұрын

@@RadamesAida2Operalovers I didn't mean these particular singers give master classes, rather better established "stars" but anyway "mosquito" singers. Unfortunately as a pianist (and a little as a conductor) I played with hundreds of singers, sadly majority of them of a "new generation". Usually, low intonation (pitch) is a sign of a bad technique not the hearing. I don't agree with someone here saying: "her voice is good, technique is not". In my opinion, technique makes voice good. Very often, singer's personal voice timbre wins hearts and a singer is mistakenly received as a great professional even though technically that singer is quite mediocre. To my regret, the name of late Khvorostovsky comes to my mind, who I heard since his first appearances in Krasnoyarsk Opera.

@contraltissima

2 жыл бұрын

you are so very very right!

Why drag these singers? They're young and singers' techniques evolve as they grow and age. Importantly, there are other important aspects of singing that you neglect to address: both of these singers are recognized because their uncommonly fine musicianship and exuberant / rigorous commitment to the dramatic arts. There is no emperical vocal technique - nearly every European culture seems to have developed varying ways of producing sounds that accord with the placement of vowels in their respective languages. These singers seem to represent an amalgam of many teaching schools. Whatever it is that they are doing with their vocal apparatuses, it's yielding a compelling and -significant- communicative result. They are human, which is why they are THRILLING to witness live. Technicians are not inherently artists, but these two sopranos are artists.

LO and NS (LO FAR worse): unclear vowels, vibration in the voice is a wobble, poor singing; also NS: why all the mouthing, over-opening, etc? It doesn't help, someone should tell her ... ; MR: clarity and consistency (of vibrancy and tone), excellent singing. NS's poor trill compared to MR's perfect one at the very end says it all, really.

the death of opera is because of these wrongly taught and disseminated techniques.

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

And also the changed environment that professionals and students have to go through. The system is not right. Joseph shore talks about the "Death of Opera". He has some interesting insights. There is also a part two. kzread.info/dash/bejne/dKlmydahl7bFoco.html

Everyone in these comments are OLD and MEAN

Lisette Oropesa sounds worse for every year, a coloratura sounding so thin and squeeky already on a high C? Does she even have any higher notes left? Nadine Sierra is not a coloratura, she’s a lyric trained as a coloratura and with a typical nasal sound because of trying to place her sound in the mask. She also got a wobbly tone, like she’s trained to sing like that. Meaning she and her teacher cannot hear it…

@Mohamedmifxal

2 жыл бұрын

Forget about singing...they are soooo flat and boring with their interpretations as well

@gisellececily

2 жыл бұрын

I’m a young singer learning classical singing technique at my school and private lessons. Which qualities in Lisette Oropessa’s voice make her a coloratura? I assumed she was a lyric soprano also because her voice seems like it has more weight than Nadine Sierra. I just want to learn :)

@marieantoinette3857

2 жыл бұрын

@@gisellececily ShrilLizzy is, or better to say was, a soubrette. Nothing more. A small, unattractive and quite an unable voice for any kind of ornamentation or more. Her first performances were as Suzanna and Nanetta.

@JacquelineLanceTenor

2 жыл бұрын

@@gisellececily if you want to learn I highly recommend you consult your teachers and colleagues. All of this negativity will not help you and be more likely to turn you off of this beautiful art form before you even get started. Stay away from these "modern singer bad" type of videos. The only thing you'll learn here is how to be pretentious and have a bad attitude. 😂 ShrilLizzy? We're name calling now. How mature. Case in point. 🤷‍♂️

Absolutely Oropesa and Sierra are two of the most overrated singers today. The voices are so boring.

@AIWboojum

2 жыл бұрын

Netrebko is the most overrated singer. I always expect her larynx to come flying out of her mouth when she sings.

Sadly Opera is dead because of this poor sounding "singers".

@jimmyj6209

3 жыл бұрын

'Glory be the microphone'

@RadamesAida2Operalovers

3 жыл бұрын

@@jimmyj6209 I get the impression from masterclasses that a lot of teachers, conductors and singers want to produce the sound they think they hear on a recording or singing actions manipulated for recording industry sales. And not the sound desired for the open stage. Same with acting. They use silly small superficial gestures instead of classic simple movements and actions based on emotional inflections. Someone on my mefistofele's video commented on the over acting. They didn't get these actions are for an open stage. For an audience that sits far away and not a video focusing up close.

@chiedu90069

3 жыл бұрын

Except that literally hundreds of thousands of people (if not millions) see opera in person every year. This "opera is dead" refrain is the sad moan of failed singers and frustrated gay men. Fortunately, these sad folks have KZread comments while the rest of us continue to enjoy this glorious art. Everyone should have something!

@jaybee2838

3 жыл бұрын

@@chiedu90069 HAHAHAHA... Hello Lizzie! How's it hanging? Truth hurts, doesn't it? Also maybe drop the homophobic tone a tad :)

@AndreiUngureanuoperafan

3 жыл бұрын

@@chiedu90069 Oh Ms Oropesa! I was wondering when you’ll show up in comments 😅 Are you gonna use only this account or “Faustina Bodoni” is also coming later? 😅😅😅

what are you talking about my friend??? Rinaldi is screaming. both are wonderful sopranos but I stay with Lisette.

@draganvidic2039

3 жыл бұрын

Keep on listening to these kind of clips. You might learn eventually…

@geminikid1617

Ай бұрын

Rinaldi screaming? You’re a joke 😂

Nadine Sierra sings with a pretty perfect technique-so easy and relaxed.