I think this episode hits very differently if you've watched someone suffer from dementia and lose their memories. It brought back some of the horror and pain and made for a different monster of the week to face. It wasn't executed perfectly but I think it had a subtext to roll around in your head.

@aranjackson259

Жыл бұрын

I thought the same thing, their anxiety and confusion was palpable.

@kadosho02

Жыл бұрын

I am very familiar with this. Sadly lost my grandmother to Alzheimer's and Dementia back in 2008. It was difficult, and challenging every day.

@ptsebago1

Жыл бұрын

Agree with you 110%. My Mom is suffering with Early Onset Alzheimer's and at this point doesn't recognize me or my Dad and can't communicate at all. It's a horrible disease and the aspects of this episode that dealt with memory definitely hit real hard for me

@JasonBoyce

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. When my mum first started losing her mind, it was awful. I can’t imagine how rough it was for her, too. So many times she just became aware, in the middle of these scenarios, and had to start piecing it all together.

@gingergrant1057

Жыл бұрын

Don’t know if this is comparable. I had a pretty bad concussion in High School. Didn’t know what was going on or who I was being woken up by.

"I mourned you." At the beginning of The Cage he was so upset about the three lost crew members that he was considering leaving Starfleet, and he specifically called out his yeoman as someone it upset him to lose.

@Lemurion287

Жыл бұрын

And that Yeoman being a man plays into his reaction to seeing Yeoman Colt...

@kadosho02

Жыл бұрын

​@@Lemurion287there are no words to express that feeling: expression, pain, hurt, loss, heartbreak. Your crew is your family, you lose someone, it hurts deeper because they count on you, and you count on them if need be

@Lemurion287

Жыл бұрын

@@kadosho02 as someone who lost the woman he was with for 20 years, I understand exactly what loss means.

@kadosho02

Жыл бұрын

@@Lemurion287 I am so sorry for what you have been through, I hope that you have friends and loved ones you can turn to if need be 🖖

@JohnnyWednesday

Жыл бұрын

Yeah he doesn't want to lose people - but leave Starfleet like a wounded little baby? doesn't inspire confidence.

I thought Melissa Navia was given a lot of difficult material to chew on and totally nailed it. But I also can see how it might be easy to overlook. I felt like she communicated that terrifying utter confusion better than anyone else did in the episode and watching her just made ME feel that same sense of dread and terror in a way that I was not ready to expect. Bravo!

@ZachariahWiedeman

Жыл бұрын

Also, David Huynh's performance really hit me. At first I thought he was being totally campy and over the top - but by the end of the episode I realized that was a 100% deliberate choice to show just how bad of an actor his *character* was at trying to play a role and convince the Rigelians whom, I presume, must be considered simple or something to fall for it. Anyway, by the end of the episode, I really had mixed emotions about Yoeman Nguyen, what he had been through, the choices he made, and the complicated emotions he experienced in response to the total and utter trauma he had been through... and I was just hoping above all hopes to see him show up again in the future. Bravo!

@cryofpaine

Жыл бұрын

She had a great scene, that told us absolutely nothing about her character. For a character-centric episode, I want to see the character in a way we haven't before, which this did. But I also want that to help inform my understanding of the character, which this doesn't. I know nothing more about Ortegas after watching this than I knew before. She flies the ship. She's good at flying the ship. She's got the bravado of every ace pilot. But we knew all that.

Weirdly one thing that stuck out to me was how as the crew was being affected they didn't try to hide it. Like so many shows something starts affecting people and they're all "It's nothing, I'm fine." for way too long. But here La'An admitted she wasn't completely fine when first asked (tho did downplay it). And on the ship when Uhura started to have symptoms and Una sent her to sick bay she didn't argue but agreed right away. Kind of refreshing seeing characters NOT trying to hide obvious problems and being willing to get them take care of. (And Sean seems a bit of a grump this week - someone give that man a Snickers! 😀)

@AnnNunnally

Жыл бұрын

I am so glad they did not drag out that old trope! Real strength is knowing when you need help.

@Lavadog11

Жыл бұрын

With La'An the downplaying how much it affected her was still very much in charter for her.

I personally absolutely LOVED this episode. it just gave me TOS feels all over the place with the radiation, memory issues, random spots, ..it just hit everything for me. maybe that's just my bias to the older 'episodic story' vs overarching storyline method for these. Just loved it.

@victorpradha9946

Жыл бұрын

It's a merging of The Cloud Miners and The Omega Glory with a more personal touch, but somehow the episode felt tepid and lacking in nuance and any b-plot elements.

@NickKharchenko

Жыл бұрын

I would belive it was a deliberate choice.

@dianewilliams1125

Жыл бұрын

I definitely felt TOS! But somethings just didn't click. Being in the cage all night,and didn't freeze,no food water ,I know it would take up time but at least something to make sense. Pike welding that hammer? Too many things out of place. Guess I'm being picky but it just didn't feel right. Uniforms bug me too!

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

I agree! To be honest, this is my favorite episode in the whole SNW

Despite your valid technical criticisms, I found most of those issues to be minor against the context of what was happening, and came away from this episode enthralled with it. The high concept was brilliant and unexpected. The execution very well done. And finally this season, the writers did their jobs. I found the episode refreshingly mind-bending. Big 👍 from me!

The hallway scene with Ortega asking how to get home and the computer gave her flashing yellow lights to follow gave off serious Wizard of Oz vibes.

@xyreniaofcthrayn1195

Жыл бұрын

Though got to love the computer virtually sighing like what in the photonic fleet is going on must be thursday?

@DaRealPhillyJawn

Жыл бұрын

I seriously broke out in a rendition of "Follow the yellow brick road" when that happened! 😂😂😂

@se7enofnein

Жыл бұрын

Although she left her pilot seat, who else but Ortega would be able to navigate her way to her quarters and then back to where she needed to be. Everyone else was literally just lost.

@barrysteinlage6888

Жыл бұрын

​@@DaRealPhillyJawnI was thinking the same thing. Probably because I grew up watching The Wizzard Of Oz every Thanksgiving since I was 7

@DaRealPhillyJawn

Жыл бұрын

@@barrysteinlage6888 I watched it every year when I was a kid too.

I have a horror for brain injury and memory loss, so this episode's problem to solve hit me pretty hard. My only niggles were things like "How can the field Kalar have legends when you forget pretty much everything every night?" But aside from that, I liked this one a lot. Also, Spock has always been funny. He was often mercilessly sarcastic in TOS.

@countluke2334

Жыл бұрын

Yes, and since Chapel said something about brain damage earlier I think they should have needed to come up with some better explanation than "it just stops as soon as you get out of range". It sounded a lot more permanent.

It's painfully clear this wasn't the "Ortega episode." Pike literally tells her "next time" after he shoots her down for the away mission.

@johnnyc.31

Жыл бұрын

@@OldManYellsAtClouds Agreed. Melissa Navia has been clear there’s an episode where we learn more about the character this season. Should we downvote every episode until that happens? Idiotic reasoning in this video.

@johnnyc.31

Жыл бұрын

@@OldManYellsAtClouds He still gave a downvote despite that, so I don’t know what you’re in about.

@JayStrang1

Жыл бұрын

@@OldManYellsAtClouds He's "on about" Sean being a child and giving the episode a down because it wasn't the episode he thought it was.

@JayStrang1

Жыл бұрын

@@OldManYellsAtClouds "Stop whining! Get over yourself!" they shrieked, a shining example of stoic calm to all who beheld them.

@jonathannicolosi581

Жыл бұрын

The season trailer shows her piloting the shuttle as it hurdles toward the surface. She'll definitely get a "next time," and hopefully will learn more about her.

Another one for Cetacean Observations: When Una is giving the briefing near the beginning, one of the deceased officers on the screen is named 'C. Plummer'

@OneBigPear

Жыл бұрын

Came here to make this comment. :)

@LaurieWhite-or4uk

Жыл бұрын

Every review I've seen of this episode has missed that

@user-pf9rp4bv9t

Жыл бұрын

Ah just made the same comment didn't see this one - if he is going to make mistakes like this maybe it is time that Ellie does take over 😂

@edwardmorgan5373

Жыл бұрын

Beat me to it!

@darrengriffin8609

Жыл бұрын

It was the first thing I noticed and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. It was pretty damp obvious

I felt this episode may have been inspired by Nichelle Nichols getting dementia. She had an amazing life she couldn't remember.😢 If you love anyone with dementia, this episode hits hard.😭

@MrMartymart

Жыл бұрын

My 94 year old Brilliant Dad… 😢

@bcn1gh7h4wk

Жыл бұрын

.....or, a reference to TNG's Conundrum, with basically the same reaction by the crew: "I don't know what's going on, but I know I can do this"

@joshuafrey8804

Жыл бұрын

It's tough to deal with for sure. You have my sympathy. Personally I have dealt with both alzheimer's and dementia. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

@leedwyer161

Жыл бұрын

no it wasnt, remember TNG?

@MrMartymart

Жыл бұрын

@@leedwyer161 I’m out of my league on that… lol

I've had to be heavily involved with education about dementia care. This episode was a master class in conveying what people with Alzheimer's and the many other types of dementia experience and what their caregivers deal with. You know how the Ad Astra Per Aspera episode felt regarding difference/marginalization -- how evident and relatable the allegory was? For anyone dealing with dementia in a loved one or in themselves, this episode was *just like that* and abundantly clear within minutes. Here are just some of the ways it hit perfectly and hard: - People remembered basic long-held skills (walking, talking, etc.) but couldn't recall newer or recent things. - Emotion was better able than facts or details to trigger memory. - The experience of missing time and "how did I get here?" - The frustration of knowing something is just out of reach in memory and the effort and anxiety involved in trying to recall it. - The feeling of "I know this..." but only vaguely. Also, "I know this place... This is home." - The scene where Erika first goes out into the hallway and we see types of response from every stage: some are terrified, some are just vacant, some are confused and wandering, some are perseverating. I actually burst into tears seeing it recapped. - An individual character alternating among fear, frustration, hopelessness, suspicious anger, etc. In a single day. - The brain scan graphic reminded me of scans of Alz, fronto-temporal, and vascular dementias if you overlapped them. - Several amazingly accurate depictions of word-finding difficulty and circumlocution. - The advice to cope by "living in the moment" is incredibly bittersweet; dementia patients reach a point where all they CAN do is be in the moment and your goal becomes trying to work with just that moment. - Second languages getting lost with only the first language retained (I saw this as why Spock can't read the notes, if they were written in English). - Like others have said in these comments, the "nighttime is when most is forgotten" aspect resembled sundowning. - The segment about whether to try to treat La'an or just make her dying moments pleasant (lots of different issues can be connected to that short scene). - Echoes of debates over medicating dementia patients: when Uhura got calmed down and cheery in sick bay. "Well at least the drugs are working." - The question of how soon will the problem come for you, and whether you can get enough done in time. Even the numbers used were proportionately similar to dementia realities. - It goes without saying: Nichelle Nichols. I could probably add even more. And I did enjoy the episode and performances in many other ways! But as Sean beautifully encourages us to be good folk and show kindness, I couldn't resist coming here to say that with this episode, Star Trek showed ME kindness by shining a light on brain disease and the experiences of patients and their caregivers. I appreciated that these vital, brilliant characters we care about were shown to us vulnerable and maybe the next time we see a dementia patient we'll ask ourselves if maybe there's a Chapel, a Pike, a M'Benga, an Ortegas in there. Has their family had to watch their La'an, their Nyota, their Spock disappear? For those that didn't pick up on the allegory, I envy you but I'm happy for you. For those who saw it as clear as day, I lift you up.🙏

Something I loved about this episode was the rocks in the snow field outside of the castle. They were set up in a very TOS-style soundstage layout to me and felt like a hyper-detailed version of a set from the 1960s lol. I thought that was great.

@VidIan262009

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. That and the hue of the sky.

I liked this episode because in addition to the reference on the value of memories, they specifically talk about painful memories of loss. This sparks back to Star Trek 5 for me and the value of painful memories in forming the direction of our lives. Like Kirk said "I want my pain, I need my pain!" This really speaks to me in the same way, the value not only of good memories but bad ones as well.

@FredFredrickson-bip-bang

Жыл бұрын

I think Kirk may have largely learned that lesson from his experience in the episode "The Enemy Within". He was so weak and indecisive without his "dark side".

Ethan Peck as the crew's "straight man" trope for comedy is pure gold. his timing is always perfect, and he never fails to get a smile from me. The last episode with his "I am sorry you had to see such an outburst... he brings out the worst in me" was great.

That scene in the palace near the end shows what Pike could be without all the memories that make him who he is. And that Pike is _terrifying._ o.o

I thought it was a good episode for Erika. Not every character will get equal focus. Not giving much focus to the bad guy allows Erika's character to save the day. I got chills as she was walking down the hall to the bridge to save the freaking day. She's Erika! She flies the ship! Hell yeah!

@carlosponte2939

Жыл бұрын

She's one of my favorite characters... along with Chapel, La'an, Uhura, pike , Spock and M'Benga 😂

@ianbui5356

Жыл бұрын

I was expecting it to be more focused on her though after the first clip released for this season being from this episode. Pretty much everyone else besides maybe Chapel has gotten their own episodes. Even though seasons now are shorter, she's starting to feel like Travis on ENT, who was just kind of there for most of that show's 4 seasons, and even he had a couple of episodes. They need to give her an episode that explores her background.

@kadosho02

Жыл бұрын

​@@ianbui5356I think we will be getting an episode this season focused on her as well. Every character within this crew is fascinating. Wish we had more episodes to explore

@GASHUBOY

Жыл бұрын

@@carlosponte2939 It is a friggin GREAT cast of characters. Am loving 'em and so glad the show is doing great.

@kuboaa101

Жыл бұрын

@@ianbui5356 I get it. I was expecting Moriarty to play a part in Picard III, based on the trailer.

Anson Mount is undeniably excellent in EVERYTHING, so there's that.

@Sully365

Жыл бұрын

THAT HAIR

Chapel walking up to Ortegas and they have a moment of almost recognition, and then clearly being lost was heartbreaking.

I like the fact that Spock did not have his plot armor on, as in I am half-human therefore I am not affected by the memory loss

@gregx5096

Жыл бұрын

If anything I think he was more affected by it, as it was mentioned on the planet that strong emotions remain with you after (the) forgetting. Guess who spends so much time trying to repress those...?

I feel you’ve underrated this one Sean. It was a really good self-contained old-style Sci-fi plot and some excellent links to the original pilot episode. Some beautiful graphics and throwing in, as only Star Trek does, a real life topic - which in this case is memory loss and what that does to a person. I’d say ‘subtle not beige’

Loved this episode because it felt straight out of the 1960's. This episode dragged for some but not for me.

@cunning01

Жыл бұрын

yeah, same. i felt like this could easily have been a TOS episode and no one would have been able to tell the difference and i loved that. For me this was the best episode of the first four.

@GPsarakis

Жыл бұрын

I said this to some other people as well, this really has that TOS feel. It's focused more on the characters and their acting and not so much the fancy fx or some overly complex scifi problem to solve.

@leandabee

Жыл бұрын

Agreed 👍

@mary-kittybonkers2374

Жыл бұрын

Yeas, it did have TOS feel to it. I felt that it was more character and relationship driven too as opposed to big action pieces, although there were a few set piece fighting scenes.

@dayrkflaugh

Жыл бұрын

I completely agree, but it did seem like a "filler" episode. These seasons are too short for that. But maybe we could get 25 episode seasons after this? I wouldn't complain

Of course I will always want more Ortega, but i think this was actually a great episode for her. She was really the only one of the whole crew who figured out how to interact with the computer and relearn who she was. It speaks to how much she cares on an instinctive level for the ship and crew and just how sharp she is. I've loved every episode this season and this one is no exception. Definitely not a beige episode to me. It gave me good TNG style "Dr. Crusher saves the day by being sharp af" vibes. I also love that although there is a "bad guy", the main plot centers around them dealing with problems caused by rare, weird space stuff. It doesn't get more classically trek than that.

@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj

Жыл бұрын

That said. I hate hate hate the scene where she got the rug pulled out from under her about the away mission. Not because it was a bad scene, but because it was so believable.

I think you guys were a little harsh on this episode. To me it very much resembled a TOS episode, which - after 3 more modern feeling episodes - was a nice touch. Also, I thought the disturbing feeling of loosing ones memories was very well portrayed. Now, I do agree that it's not gonna go down in history as a highlight episode but still, I very much enjoyed the major premise and the execution. Side note: One huge Down I have goes to La'an this week: Why in the hell didn't she report all her symptoms fully and honestly to Pike and M'Benga after her first blackout, when both specifically and repeatedly asked her about it? She basically lied to them and that really doesn't fit her character at all.

@ibanix2

Жыл бұрын

When the human mind is faced with confusion, it tries very hard to make up details and present everything as being “I’m fine”. Two relevant examples: Individuals suffering from dementia, and individuals suffering from hypoxia (lack of oxygen). In both cases they do not report confusion, they usually attempt to continue as normal.

@katrose5179

Жыл бұрын

My mother has had cognitive issues related to seizures. She’s an honest person and hates lying. She still insists she’s fine when she has seizures starting. When the problem is in the brain, it affects how people act about the problem.

even though its not pointed out in the episode (and they are in deed not the exact same item), I like how in the beginning L'ann points out Erikas beanie asking if she was really going to wear it, with Erikia responding how she did, and saying that it ties the whole thing together. Then later in the episode it's revealed that the helmets that the guards wear protect them from radiation, hence they don't forget. Like I said earlier, yeah they aren't the same thing, and her beanie would not have helped her, but she was onto something though.

@SnapDash

Жыл бұрын

The dialogue writers were very restrained (too restrained?) in not fitting in a "tin foil hat" joke

One thing I appreciated about this episode was that Starfleet sent Pike and the Enterprise to clean up the situation rather than saying "you blew it the first time, we'll send someone else." At first I wondered if the Commodore promotion they referenced was going to be Matt Decker, but apparently he wasn't promoted until 2263.

Big shout out to Elie. She was a great cameo in this Ups & Downs. She's fast becoming my second favourite presenter on the channel!

@MrMartymart

Жыл бұрын

More Ellie is not a bad thing… She definitely can not overuse her cameo presence any more than a Q! 😂

@kuldan5853

Жыл бұрын

It's funny... I always pictured Ellie being so much taller than she actually is (or Sean is just a giant). But these two together? Gold!

@Mark-ki7ic

Жыл бұрын

Elie is a good #1 to Seàns Captain, (she's a wee folk)

@134StormShadow

Жыл бұрын

Plus she's very cute 🥰

@PhantomObserver

Жыл бұрын

Who here’s expecting an episode of Star Trek Ups & Downs with Ellie doing the presenting (and Sean tied up and gagged off the side)?

I am so glad that I am not so much of a fanboy that I cannot simply sit back and enjoy the ride. Great episode. If last week hadn't taken place in my back yard (Go T.O.!!), I'd say this was my favourite this season. It was classic StarTrek (which is all I ask of ST-SNW's). If you want continuity to stand up under close examination, maybe watch The Expanse, BSG or B5, because historically, Star Trek continuity has always been all over the map. (It is after all, still 60's sci-fi.) Chill Seàn! Tout va bien.

Spock always had a comedic streak built into the character: just look at the (grossly underestimated) TOS episode A Piece of the Action. Among many excellent moments, there was that moment at the end in which he tries to act as a mobster. You could see that he wanted a hole to open up and swallow him.

@Enterprise1701J

Жыл бұрын

TOS Spock roasted McCoy mercilessly 😅 (as Vulcans get anyway) and viewers lived for it.

@_WillCAD_

Жыл бұрын

I would advise yas to keep dialin', Oxmyx.

@sergioaccioly5219

Жыл бұрын

@@Enterprise1701J Absolutely right. I might be even more interested in the McCoy/ Spock first meeting even more than the Kirk/ Spock one. Find out how they frenemity started.

@kuboaa101

Жыл бұрын

Yes, Spock has always been hilarious.

A couple of reasons why I felt this episode was, contrary to Sean's assessment, the best of this season thus far, and why I almost take those five "downs" personally: 1. Memories, especially the most painful ones, if taken the right way, help us grow into our better selves, even if life would've been so much easier without them. In their absence, we almost lose all sense of identity. This story wasn't about simply forgetting things; it was about forgetting our literal selves, and the toll it takes on us, even without our recognizing the cost. Take Pike almost killing Zac until he remembers who he is, or Luq preferring not to remember the root of his sadness at the cost of the memories of his lost family, only to find solace in their memory, despite the knowledge of their passing. 2. The power of the things we live for shows us the way home in our times of greatest need. Even before he lost his memory on Rigel VII, Pike had already lost his way in regards to his relationship with Batel. I myself am similarly in a relationship where finding time with my significant other is difficult owing to an entire ocean separating us. But we've come to recognize that finding a person so right for another is rare and precious. Batel recognizes and values this type of connection, but until Pike is shown the cost of losing it, he doesn't. The thing that inspires him to overcome his ordeal on Rigel VII is the pendant given to him by Batel. He didn't just recognize that he owed an apology to someone, but that making that apology was very important. That brought him back, not only to his memories, but to Batel. Similarly, Ortegas finding her way back to the bridge to pilot the Enterprise out of danger was a great depiction of the power of living for the things that bring a person joy. Even without the literal knowledge of who or where she was, she still found the essence of her true self while navigating through the asteroid field, that is, someone born to fly! There have definitely been times in my own life where I felt so lost, and the one thing that showed me the way home was doing the things that brought me joy. I get that this episode wasn't for everyone. But I have some deeply personal reasons (which I'll keep to myself, thank you very much 😁) including, but also aside from those listed above for why it spoke so powerfully to me. I think anyone who recognizes the power of loss and its ability to change us into better people would appreciate the story told in this episode. Sorry Sean! 😜

@jimmyryan5880

Жыл бұрын

Seán only cares about uniforms apparently

@Jedi-rh6tx

Жыл бұрын

Very well said, @jacobtung966

@sptnk021

Жыл бұрын

I feel like Sean didn't like this episode because it wasn't "Star Trekky" enough, even though I feel it was one of the most Trek episodes we've seen in a long time. Not only did it have mystery and adventure, but it dealt with heart, memories, and emotions; the things that make us viewers relate to Star Trek on a personal level. At 4 episodes in, i feel like this season makes a great case for SNW having a full broadcast run at 20+ episodes, if only to get more depth in the writing. I'll let all the nitpicking about Canon details slide as long as we get good Trek stories.

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

I think that Sean simply went into this episode expecting something entirely different (an episode focused on Ortegas), and because it wasn't (which was clear from the beginning, when Pike said "next time"), he just watched the whole episode in a negative light and completely missed the depth and the philosophical brilliance of this episode. This can sometimes happen to the best of us... But I believe it is his loss

I ❤this episode so much. One of my favorites actually. I found it very touching, occasionally fun, and trek at its best. I truly do not care about uniforms ;-)

So, this episode couldn't be a more perfect metaphor for the shit I've gone through over the last few weeks, right down to Erica's comments at the end of the episode about doing something for years repeatedly and knowing it instinctively, but forgetting how to do it from an outside perspective, and I literally had to remind myself how to do my job and spent several days going through the experience of completely forgetting how to do it and having to force my brain to pull it all back together. This couldn't be more perfectly timed for me personally. That moment where Ortegas has the "Make it stop" breakdown in the episode? Yeah...

@DaleWinarski

Жыл бұрын

yet another reason why this series fucken rocks.

I think this was a very strong episode. It deals with, and does a terrifyingly good job of conveying what it must be like to suffer from dementia. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant episode!

@yoursoulknows6444

Жыл бұрын

Me too... my mother had dementia for 11 years before she passed in 2021. She had lived a very rich and fulfilling life, traveled the world, met with world dignitaries thru my dad's work. It was heartbreaking watching her lose her life before she lost her life, to where she knew no one nor remembered anything... at the end she only existed.. unbelievably difficult... brilliant episode. Sean completely misses the depth and intensity of this episode imo

@felixVanDiemen

Жыл бұрын

@@yoursoulknows6444 I totally agree. My grandfather and my aunty suffered from dementia and it is so heartbreaking to see the person you knew and loved gradually disappear before your eyes. I was stunned that Sean just totally failed to get this excellent episode!

@yoursoulknows6444

Жыл бұрын

@@felixVanDiemen agree, it was shocking to see his review this week!

@carolwells5794

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, at our house it was very clear very quickly that it was a story about dementia/brain disease. In fact, I'm going to suggest it to the education folks at our Alzheimer's Society branch.

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

@@yoursoulknows6444 I was also shocked to see this review. Sean clearly missed the depth of this episode

This episode was truly excellent. Sean is way too picky. Didn't deserve any downs at all IMO. And the Ortegas episode is the one we've already seen in clips, where she's flying the shuttle down to a planet and pulls up at the last second. So, Sean can go ahead and take that down away (along with all the others).

@Linuxpunk81

Жыл бұрын

Agreed

@jwrigley47

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree, which is a shame because I was really looking forward to this video.

I thought this was every bit as good as Tomorrow Cubed, personally. The theme of memory, loss, finding out who you are, it just worked for me.

I liked this episode. It does what Star Trek does best: visit a meaningful idea and entertain thoughtful answers. This episode was more of a conversation starter, rather than everything being direct exposition.

Bit harsh this week, I think it showed more of Erika's personality rather than her 'background' and shows how passionate she is about being the pilot. I like her more for it.

I liked this episode a lot, very old school Trek

I loved this episode. I have to give a shout out to actor’s performance of Cpt Patel. It was excellent. I enjoy stories that explore character and personality in relation to self. One’s sense of self is largely memory but memories are a result of one’s character and personality. FYI, the centering mantra “I’m Erica…fly this ship”. It’s a facet of her character and personality that is the core of her self.

I would say watch this episode again. I did that with last weeks episode and liked it much better the second go around.

While this episodes may not have the bells and whistles of a time travelling Kirk or a head on Klingon battle, this was a very solid episode. One of the better season 2 episodes up to this point.

Seán, I love ya, but it's an asterisk. Asterix is a plucky Gaul of diminutive stature. On the topic of today's episode, I actually really enjoyed this one. In particular, I appreciated how unsettling it was throughout, very much played into my fears of losing my memory one day. As someone else mentioned, it hits harder if you had a loved one suffer from Alzheimer's or dementia. On a lighter note, it was interesting to see a culture built around the concept of forgetting.

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Thank you! I was going Asterix is a Gaul - But then thought no one likes a corrector. 😕Thanks. 😁

@davidanderson_surrey_bc

Жыл бұрын

We shall erect an obelix to your heroic gesture of correctitude.

I'm surprised there wasn't an Up for Erika doing that maneuver THROUGH that asteroid to leave the field. Using the beam array's and rolling the Enterprise to allow it through that thing was Epic!

@darkglasses87

Жыл бұрын

Epic? I laughed out loud in derision.

@CaptainJack2048

Жыл бұрын

It was absolutely fantastic... this needs to be referred to as the "Ortegas Maneuver" from now on.

@tj_2701

Жыл бұрын

👍

@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I love how this series actually thinks through the technology at hand. Ortega calculating that the use of phasers coupled with the protection of the shields was more likely to succeed than trying to dodge and side-swiping the asteroid was right up there with the episode where she had to fly into active phaser fire and kept rotating the ship to take the hits on different shield emitters.

The thing that stood out to me was how many phaser rifles did Pike bring down there? That was a lot of phaser rifles. Anyway, now I want to see Werner Herzog's Sad Beige Episodes for Sad Beige Trekkies.

@zackmorrison470

Жыл бұрын

I agree! I get that they were evacuating in a hurry, but if that many phaser rifles and the crate of gear is Pike's idea of "leave no trace," then he'd be banned from camping in the National Parks! And I think most of the DS9 episodes qualify as "Sad Beige Episodes!" Jake Sisko's 90's carpet samples sweaters always gave me profound ennui... =)

@jasonwalker9471

Жыл бұрын

@@zackmorrison470 Based on how much equipment was still on the planet, either they left an entire shuttle down there (maybe they took two and only one made it back to the ship, with the other being damaged while on the ground and unable to fly), or they took one shuttle with a lot of equipment and personnel because they were expecting an extended stay, and had unloaded some equipment to set up a parameter base around the shuttle. That equipment got left behind. But they certainly weren't carrying crates around on their backs, that's for sure;).

@HikariKenzaki

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. Normally phaser rifles are only assigned during high-risk missions and we've already established that they didn't take enough precautions on Rigel VII and that's why 3 people died and Spock nearly did as well. How did they lose to a bunch of guys with leather armor and maces if they had a dozen phaser rifles nearby?

@Trekfan04

Жыл бұрын

I got the impression it was more that Zach somehow created more.

@Lavadog11

Жыл бұрын

​@@HikariKenzakiRifles are great at range. Less so in melea.

I got the impression that Pike was backing out of the relationship for other reasons. He knows he's going to be in the chair in a few years. Maybe he's been kinda OK with spending those years with her, but now that the relationship is going to negatively impact the life she lives after his incident... it becomes a more serious issue. I was hoping the memory loss would be less severe, but permanently take Pikes memory of his future, leading to his reconciliation with Patel. Also, the jacket looked good on Ellie, maybe you could get her a blue one.

@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj

Жыл бұрын

That is a great point. Many people who receive terminal prognoses will break up with a significant other without telling them why so, or resist letting relationships getting too deep, as not to "inflict" upon them the suffering that that prognosis would bring to their life.

I adored this episode. Struck home about how memories define who we are.

I think picking Rigel VII made absolute sense since we saw the struggle Pike felt in The Cage about what happened there. So revisiting that planet and that mission added to continuity in a nice way.

Voyager did a memory loss episode where they were put to work in the mines and ended up leading a rebellion. So I loved the line where Zack said he put Pike in the forget fields and of course he ends up leading a rebellion.

@julieetscheid9682

Жыл бұрын

Work Force, from Season 7 VOY. I also thought about Conundrum from Season 6 of TNG.

@yoursoulknows6444

Жыл бұрын

@@julieetscheid9682 - Work Force, that was an excellent VOY epidode...

By far my favourite SNW episode so far. Absolutely beautiful take on the importance as well as dangers of memories and how to live with them. What a marvellous piece of Star Trek

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

To me, this episode has a lot more philosophical depth than any other SNW episode so far. I'm sure it will go down in history along with The City of the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror.

What I'm looking forward to most is the development of the relationship between the Sean and Ellie characters. They seem to have some conflict yet chemistry.

Belated comment from a long-time Star Trek fan here: I think this episode may be easily underrated because the universal theme is less obvious, but no less important: It's that theme of working so hard you forget your 'Why,' (even what you bring to the table & who you are), that did it for me. It's so applicable, in times that value blind overwork to the point of forgetting your actual initial purpose, in the process. Voyager's episode, "Workforce" also touched on this, brilliantly. I like to see Trek examining this theme once more.

I really liked this one. The title kind of gave it away if you know the mythology it was based on.

@kennashey

Жыл бұрын

I love The Odyssey by Homer, but totally missed the reference here to the Lotus Eaters mentioned therein. :) My bad! LOL

@vasyear

Жыл бұрын

i took that as its a different castle not the same one

@benjaminolson7206

Жыл бұрын

@@kennashey Well, to be fair, the Lotus Eaters are actually only discussed very briefly in the Odyssey. In a prose translation that whole adventure comes to like a paragraph. While they get a lot of attention in scholarly commentary and culture in general, if you just read the epic on your own they're pretty-much blink and you miss them.

@aaronsugar7228

Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminolson7206 I guess it was one of those things I learned early and it always stuck with me. We had to do humorous skits from The Odyssey when I was in school (a long time ago), and this was one of my favorite bits.

I guess this episode hit me a little harder Shawn. For a start the tension at the beginning was very personal, very intimate, hit close to home with the idea of a long distance relationship. I found the planet's mechanic to be very engaging, and I thought that Ortegas's mission to prove that she was a superior pilot with or without her memories to be intriguing (though I agree this isn't a meaty Ortega's story I hope we still get) it's refreshing to get them doing something other than saying they can do the thing and then just doing it.

I normally agree with the reviews, but I think this one was overly harsh. I don't care about small inconsistencies like uniforms, although I'm probably in the minority on that one. We know that Erika gets more to do in another episode because we had that scene of her flying a shuttle in the season trailer. I also thought that the idea of forgetting and the debate between living with your painful memories versus forgetting was compelling. Looking forward to the review next week, however!

@JohnTaylor-xg4jn

Жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad I'm not the only one. I generally agree with Sean and was expecting a bit more praise of the episode.

@brianmee8717

Жыл бұрын

Agree, to much on the uniforms.

@jimmyryan5880

Жыл бұрын

I agree. He's holding a grudge about the uniforms

@jwrigley47

Жыл бұрын

Agreed! I was looking forward to this video all day and was bummed they were so critical.

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

To me it seems strange to overlook all the emotional depth of this episode, the examination of human condition and the society that is based on oppression -- all over minor details like uniforms. It seems to me like Sean has completely missed the point of this episode

I think this episode speaks directly to everyone who has some memories they want to forget and how important memories are. I think that part was very good.

one thing I love about the chemistry between Pike and Batel is that they're the perfect adult couple for these times. two professionals married to their jobs, that want to take a relationship seriously... as opposed to the raw model for couples for the last 40 years: two people married to each other, who would rather be working than spending time together.

Loved this episode! Really sticks with me! Downs be darned... sorry Sean, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Throughly enjoy the work and editing put into this, just a difference of opinions on the episode Looking forward to next week!

For me, this has been the best s2 episode so far and up there in the top 5 overall

As a person who used to work in rehab for people with memory loss, this episode was so accurate as to how memory loss works and how it affects peoples' behavior.

Brutal, you are, me lad! I thought it was an awesome episode all around though I'm 100% in your camp on the "is this the Ortegas episode" question. There's no way this is that, Seán! Thanks for another excellent wrap! And say hello to Ellie for me!

Considering that we still have the scene from the Trailer of Ortegas flying the Shuttle on a planet with Pike shitting himself in fear... I feel like that was a bit of a premature down.

@yoursoulknows6444

Жыл бұрын

And why I never ever watch the trailers... I go in blind and enjoy it far more than if I've seen things lol

This episode may not have gotten the uniforms right, but it really nailed the discussion on memories and identity and how we might confront losing them. Deserves a big up from me.

Consider La'an losing her memories after what she went through last episode. It really makes you think, and i think the show forces you to consider what it would mean to lose memories of a loved one. Would La'an prefer to forget about Alternate Kirk, the pain of loving him and losing him and keeping it a secret, or remember him even though she can't talk about him?

@CantankerousDave

Жыл бұрын

She says at the end that the good memories are worth the cost of the bad ones.

@dancalindi

Жыл бұрын

@@CantankerousDave that's it! I couldn't remember exactly.

@victorpradha9946

Жыл бұрын

Neurologically, elements of who and what we are deeply ingrained and embedded in the very cells of our bodies (think muscle memory). The higher executive functions which comprise much of what we identify as "ourselves" are the most subject to "loss" through disease, injury, trauma etc.

A big down for me was the fact that they had the ringing in their ears and were starting to lose their memories in the palace, but then all they had to do was get back into the palace and their memories came right back? And it was too much of a quick fix -I hate the quick fix endings. lol

That's a good catch about the uniforms. I think that sometimes things just bother you guys more than they do me. I don't think that this episode deserved nearly as many downs as you gave. That said, I watch several reviews every single week about each new episode and this is the one that I look forward to the most.

@SachikaRomanova

Жыл бұрын

Honestly the sheer level of nitpicking is starting to make me roll my eyes a bit. "This unnamed background ship has slightly wrong nacelles and that took me COMPLETELY out of the episode, Trellium down!" 🙃

@josephflemming7370

Жыл бұрын

@@SachikaRomanovait is getting a bit much. It’s a shame as I usually look forward to watching this every week, but it’s become death by a thousand nitpicks. It’s a bit exusting to have otherwise great episodes being dragged for silly reasons. Mention them sure, but the downs and Trellium downs for these small gripes are silly.

@Tilly850

Жыл бұрын

I would never have noticed or cared myself. Yeah, I know that these things can be a "thing", but I just love the stories and enjoy whatever I get of Trek. I loved this episode.

@pastelpinkfairy

Жыл бұрын

@@Tilly850 I like the details and I would rather they got this one right! But, there's just no way there's five things I hated about this episode. 7-5 ratio of ups and downs? Come on. This was better than ANY episode of Picard, and I don't think all of those got that many downs.

@brandonparisien2381

Жыл бұрын

Considering what they let pass in DISCO, it's funny he nit picks the uniforms, lol.

I really enjoyed this episode. I love the idea of a society that has to live in the moment because they have no memory. And I love that they did an amnesia plot without it being the whole “bonk on the head that gives you amnesia and another bonk on the head that brings the memories back.” And I love the reference to Greek Mythology in the title.

This episode is maybe not the best, but in every series were episodes in every season which were not the top of the mountain, but they all need to exsist. its Trek! and we love it.

It's also an allegory for Alzheimer's and the memory issues are relevant to those who have family who live through their emotions and totems which differs from the reality they experience. The character of the old man is the symbolic representation of the experience.

😂always love when Ellie pops up in ups and downs

@Shakeshift

Жыл бұрын

Ugh, I dislike her. She's tedious to listen to, she doesn't know a lot about the source material, and to me she's part of what I call "Insincere Trek."

🤔 Perhaps the Ortegas episode is in the trailer where Ortegas is piloting a shuttle with Pike riding in it? You know, the one where she waits to start it after a long fall? 😏

@TheExpatpom

Жыл бұрын

I’d forgotten about that bit of the trailer. Yeah, Seán might be taking that down off yet.

My take on this episode is the ringing in the ears. I have tinnitus, and I forget everyday after I fall asleep. I forget more of my past everyday, being inundated by the constant ringing. I forget names, and things I've done with those nameless people. I know that I've known things, that I don't know anymore. When I'm asked what it feels like, I can't explain it except to say, "It feels like being slowly erased." The sound that was presented in the show is so close to what I hear, 7-24, and I wish I could convince people I'm not just "making excuses, and complaining."

Picard jacket and DISCO shirt!

i normally wouldnt be bothered by the uniforms, but with the delta being a major plot device, it really brought attention to it

@Ty-er5ok

Жыл бұрын

The uniform mistake was glaring for sure.

The ‘painting’ behind the thrown is a blown up section of the Alexander the Great fighting Darius that is on display in the Pompeii museum

I think this episode also hits very-very close to home for people living with cptsd. And it also hit hard how little it did get through even to @TrekCulture... I was expecting them to be more aware somehow. But anyway. I've never see another example of just getting how it feels to live with the pain and feelings but never having real connection to the details of those memories they stem from. This was heartbreaking and touching. I am really sorry it was not more explicit. Not even sure that the writers intention was this. But it is the best representation of what it is like to "live" for someone with severe cptsd.

@kaishaman7144

Жыл бұрын

I think a lot of people watched this episode and thought that it was a brilliant representation of how it is to live with memory problems (whether they stem from dementia, CPTSD or something else). I certainly did. I'm sorry Sean missed it, but the episode itself was brilliant. Very emotionally touching and very deep in its examination of human condition

"...60's, shall we say" = A True Irish Gentleman.

My trellium down would have been the "updated" look of the Rigellian castle. I didn't like the "sky scraper" additions to it. I've always loved that original matte painting.

@JohnDlugosz

Жыл бұрын

They could have used the old matte painting as an Easter egg, as a framed painting on the wall of the castle illustrating the previous dynasty. Maybe part of a hallway of paintings showing older and older kings and castles.

This episode fixes a HUGE problem many people had in The Cage. The effects of Rigel VII could still be affecting Pike at that time and that's why he says the line "I'm not used to having a woman on the bridge" to number one.

I didn't think about it when watching this episode, but I agree that it does deal with real dementia in a very imaginative way. I worked for many years at a long term care facility and the crew wandering the hallways of the Enterprise reminds me of Sundowner syndrome, an effect of Alzheimer's on its victims that makes them pace after dark.

The coat!!! Sean, where did you buy the S3 Picard coat!

@PaleoWithFries

Жыл бұрын

I thought the bit with the jacket was a setup for a merch store! lol

@DeeViningUK

Жыл бұрын

I've got the same jacket from ebay 🖖

On Navia, I understand the desire for a dedicated episode, but perhaps she works better as a supporting character. Christina Chong is a superior actress in my opinion. I like when a show focuses on the better characters like Enterprise did.

This is by far my favorite and the strongest episode of SNW (across both seasons). It was genuinely terrifying to watch a person lose themself bit by bit, being confused and scared, yet feeling that loss. There is very little in the world scarier than that. And the actors played it so well! This is the kind of psychological realism and depth that was missing for me in SNW until now. It delivers a great comment on human nature, raising the issue of how much of our personhood, of our sense of self is our memories. And, given that, it hits even harder to hear the local man saying that he doesn't want his memories back because they are too painful (how much pain must there be if a person is willing to let go of himself just to forget the source of this suffering). And, of course, there is the social commentary: this episode is fundamentally about a horrifying social order where the ruling class doesn't just force the oppressed to work -- they also rob them of their history, of the very core of the beings, depersonifying them (yes, the ruling class did not bring that meteorite to the planet, but they have usurped the protecting castle for themselves and they are using the others' memory loss to use them as slaves). Wich is a clear parallel to how human conquerors try to erase the collective memory of the conquered and rob them of their tradition and history (like the Europeans did with the local inhabitants when they conquered the Americas, for example, or generally what the colonisers did in many places). And it is also a clear parallel with how the oppressors try to make the oppressed faceless and nameless, rob them of individuality, erase them from history. This episode portrays this process literally, using literal memory loss as a metaphor, and it's a very strong metaphor, the one that really shakes you to the core. Yes, this is not a "feel-good" episode that we've come to expect from SNW. But it's so, so much better and deeper.

So, subtle note. The person Capt. Betel lost the Admiral spot to was William Geary, a subtle hint to Jack Campbell’s novels.

@ibanix2

Жыл бұрын

I would have also liked to think so… but Geary’s first name is John (Jack). I think we can chalk this up to random name selection.

You pick apart the nuances of this episode yet you let last week's get celebrated and just ignored everything wrong with the episode??? This one was fantastic.

@angelfieseler5358

Жыл бұрын

Exactly I do like tomorrow cubed but it has flaws I thought it was on par with last weeks

@nicoladoering5030

Жыл бұрын

Yes, really disappointed with Sean's analysis of this episode Vs last week's. We were literally shouting at the TV all the plot holes for last week's episode, yet he barely mentioned any of them! Then this week he comes along and pans a perfectly good episode... Really strange!

Pike has so many good friends , these interactions actually explain why Spock is willing to risk his carer and future to help him. Pikes and number ones relationship is also so close , not in a sexual way but they love each other , they are like best friends. I’d love ❤️ to see what number one is doing when pike is tragically burned alive. I can’t wait to see that interaction , but I know I’m just going to cry my eyes out 😢

@OzPiggy87

Жыл бұрын

I think that she's going to die before Pike's incident, there's not really any other explanation that would be satisfactory.

Ortega should have shouted to everyone "Ask the computer who you are!!!" when walking back to the bridge as well.

This episode struck me very differently -- For me, the theme was all about identity, what makes me "me," how do memories and how we deal with them make up who we are. That was a key theme in the original pilot and in The Cage, and it feels to me that this episode carried that theme forward even more. When bad things happen to us, we might want to forget what happened, believing that forgetting the pain will make life easier. But forgetting takes away who we are. Remembering might be very complex -- such as Pike in both original pilot/The Cage and in this episode struggling with his isolation as a captain and suffering on behalf of others -- or very simple -- such as Ortega's mantra "I'm Erika Ortega, and I fly the ship." I could go on and on about this, as I see many, many layers and examples of this in the episode, especially after I looked up the legend of the Lotus-eaters. But I'll stop here and go reflect on it some more. And try to be happy with some of my memories that I'd rather forget.

The ships in Ortega's room are not from Eaglemoss, they are AMT/Polarlights models painted silver. The Enterprise is the 1/1000 kit and the Shenzhou is the smaller 1/2500 kit (they also make the Enterprise in the smaller 1/2500 scale.

You forgot one down…Carol Kane was obscenely absent from the whole thing. She would’ve been comedy gold given some memory loss schtick to play with.

@sailormillennium2000

2 ай бұрын

I wonder if it would have taken longer to affect her with the massive amount of memory she has within her. 🤔

Of course the Trellium Down was for the uniforms. I literally hadn't thought about it up to this point.

I loved this episode, it was very reminiscent of last century ST

Honestly, Spock was pretty funny in TOS as well lol

@danieloneal7137

Жыл бұрын

“Get D'Artagnan here to sickbay” is my favorite Spock line from TOS

Funny I thought this episode was quite good. I just wished that we had more time on the climax. Everything got resolved very quickly.

I wouldn't even say this was a Pike episode. To me, this was an ensemble piece, even more so than the first episode. As that, it worked quite well for me. It's really amazing. We're 14 episodes into this show, and so far every episode IMO has been well above average.

Have you ever considered there are many divisions to starfleet and each have different uniforms … like most militaries. Are all captains in UK military same uniform?

My absolutely biggest down from this episode was the ear ringing, it was too intense and lasted a bit too long. It aggravated the hell out of my tinnitus and my dog didn't appreciate it either.

@BobSperber

Жыл бұрын

My ears just a little bit too much, and it flipped me out just a little bit, but that I don’t think is a fault of the show. P.S., Good dog! [update: I meant “my ears rang just a little bit too much…]

@ibanix2

Жыл бұрын

Holy crap I am glad someone mentioned this. My ears still hurt

@roy1701d

Жыл бұрын

My dog was most displeased.

@allthingsnerd.4484

Жыл бұрын

My cats all fled the room and my dog was like “what’s that sound “. Had to turn show way down and turn on subtitles.

Wow. I couldn’t disagree more. I thought this was a very strong episode. Definitely better than episode 1. A great classic style sci-fi story.

@ClintThomsen

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. This was the most Trek episode so far.

@kingnavypilot

Жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly. Pretty darn good episode. Most of his downs this week are things that I didn’t notice or didn’t bother me.

@mudman619

Жыл бұрын

5/10 at best imo

@ClintThomsen

Жыл бұрын

@@mudman619 why?

@ChapmanFilms

Жыл бұрын

Agreed

I was very grumpy at "follow the illuminated path". In Encounter At Farpoint that was done in the context of being a new feature introduced in Galaxy class starships. And speaking of new features… in that era, passengers were required to grasp a handle in the turbolift before they could give a voice command. This was *explicitly* stated in DS9's Trials and Tribble-ations. Grr.

@smrm1978

Жыл бұрын

I don't mind updating a 23rd century ship with 21st century tech. It's not Roddenberry's fault that Steve Jobs ripped off all his ideas. ;)

@generalilbis

Жыл бұрын

While the SNW Enterprise corridors are far more high tech than the TOS Enterprise's, having a navigation feature to help guests and new crew find their way around makes a lot of sense. Why it would be removed until Galaxy-class vessels 120 years later is a mystery. The turbolift being able to operate on its own or by voice command only at this time, when TOS and DS9 stressed the need for the handles to be grasped? I figure there have to be emergency features that allow the turbolifts to go to certain decks that contain officers' quarters or Sickbay without using the handles if certain criteria are met.

@DanGoodchild

Жыл бұрын

@@generalilbis I'm not saying that the illuminated path isn't a useful idea; it is. But given that it was specifically called out as a new feature in the Galaxy class I think there's plenty of in-world justification for why it wouldn't have been in earlier starships. For me, the idea that makes the most sense is that it simply wasn't needed earlier. Smaller ships didn't need it but as time went on, and ships got larger and larger navigating the ever-growing maze of corridors became trickier. Eventually, when the designs for the Galaxy class were on the drawing board, some admiral made an off hand remark about finding his way around and the designers decided he was right and built in the navigation assist.

I felt like this episode was exploring dementia and altzheimer's and how losing one's memory can be absolutely devastating and really change who a person is. We were actually surprised that Sean didn't like it. I thought the episode was excellent, aside from two things - 1. The uniforms like Sean pointed out, and 2. the 'follow the lights' - that was a new addition to the Galaxy Class ships. If that existed before, Riker would have known all about it. Hell, Kirk wouldn't have gotten lost on the refit during TMP. Also, the model of the Enterprise in Ortegas' room was the Polar Lights 1:1000 Discovery Enterprise. The Shenzhou looked like the Eaglemoss, though.

I thought this episode was great but agree so far the weakest of this young season. I love that the Rigel VII moment from TOS that I watched both in the 60'scand 70's was expanded upon in a cool way. This was probably the closest to a TOS style episode of all of them and I love it. Ortegas shines in this episode although clearly not a full Ortegas episode. I would like to see some character backstory for her as she is an exceptional character. Quite satisfying and entertaining for this old-time Trekkie.