"Lethal voltage" indeed ...for injectors nearby

Long story? Can't wait to start seeing more videos from work!

I clicked the Like button bought I wish there was a Love button because I love this video. I used to work with my father on our family cars. There was times we were scratching our heads till one of said, "It doesn't make sense but do you think it might be.......?" Kenny I love your careful diagnosis on everything you wok on. You are careful to not get ahead of yourself. I used to be a volunteer computer teacher and one of the things I taught was how to properly diagnose problems. If I was still teaching now I would use some of your videos in teaching diagnosis.

Heck of a story...thanks for sharing.

Very interesting problem. Like you said, those cheap coils are cheap for a reason. Glad you found the trouble and shared it with us. This will save a lot of head scratching.

Very interesting story Kenny! When I was wrenching back in the day on Chrysler products, we had our own share of problem children (vehicles) that would pop up now and then. Some were easy fixes and some were mind benders where we had to call the zone office and talk with driveline designers and techs. I had the zone send a driveline tech to our dealer for one particular vehicle and worked with me for 3 days. We came to the conclusion the vehicle need needed a new engine harness that fixed the problem as it was an intermittent problem.

I just had my e250 4.6 have a bad #7 coil . I changed that and the plug. Plus the right bank before the cat go bad. I had to pull the driver seat so I could fit . Your video if I still have problems I will try the coil., injector thing. Vans suck to work on! I'm 70 and not skinny, which causes a problem in itself! Thank you again!

Storytime with Kenny! I enjoyed it, thanks!

This video was so informative, it's not worth putting in cheep after market parts.

Observation from a retired electrical engineer. Both the coil and the injectors use magnetic fields to perform their functions. It’s possible the magnetic field from the coil could cause the solenoids in the injector to activate at an unexpected time. It is impossible to fully shield a magnetic field but putting some steel (aluminum is not magnetic) between the two could bend the field enough to reduce or remove the problem. Also you could try just replacing the coils to see if that resolved it.

@briankennedy5578

9 ай бұрын

The fields interfering with operation is one thing. But to physically damage the injectors requiring replacement? Can't see that.

@CodycoWeb

9 ай бұрын

Would love to see some scope captures of the coils and injectors. It would show a lot of info as to what was happening. You can see the pintles move on a scope. I suspect flyback voltages or over current to the drives to be the issue.

@johnweiland9389

9 ай бұрын

Looks like bad design. Coil arcs out onto fuel line and ?

@briankennedy5578

9 ай бұрын

@@johnweiland9389 get an engine miss

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

If you watch the video again, you'll see he proved everything was working when he was trying to diag the issue. But in order to understand what the real issue is, you have to know how cars work. What you may not have seen, was this issue is directly related to an open/closed loop event. The second the pcm dropped into closed loop, it wasn't receiving the correct data it needed to set fuel trims. In open loop, it ran fine. "Both the coil and the injectors use magnetic fields to perform their functions. It’s possible the magnetic field from the coil could cause the solenoids in the injector to activate at an unexpected time." Given the way this particular problem manifests itself, that can't be the issue. So, what was wrong with the vehicle? I can't say for certain because I wasn't the one diagnosing the vehicle. But if I had to guess, I would say there was nothing wrong with it. And what I mean by that is there was nothing actually broken. After market coils and injectors were installed. Its very likely that the aftermarket parts were misboxed or mislabeled. When companies like this make parts, they don't have every vehicle configuration for every model year to test their parts on. Sometimes they will list a part number that covers a certain vehicle, when it really doesn't. Its a problem that happens all the time. Another similar option would be the correct parts were installed, but they may not have been made all that well, and eventually went out of spec over time. Personally, I would bet on the first option. When the pcm moved into closed loop operation, it wasn't getting the correct data it needed to set fuel trims. That's why it ran like crap. The second he forced an open loop condition, the vehicle ran fine. If this is something you're interested in learning more about, just find some references on OBD2 theory and operation. It will explain everything I just went over in detail, and do it much better than I can. I've never been good at explaining things.

One thing I'm learning from you guys that know is don't buy cheap after market parts related to the electronics

I’ve got a 2001 F150 4.6 with 305,000 miles. I replaced all the coils because I had misfires after driving through deepIsh puddles and water would get down by the boots. The old ones had the telltale signs of arcing on the outside. I used dielectric grease on the new ones to keep the water out. Now, thanks to you, I’m so glad I spent the extra money on Motorcraft coils. Never another problem after that. Thanks

@LA_Commander

9 ай бұрын

Great move! I replace my coils with Motorcraft as well, and MC spark plugs. Never have any problems.

You didn't find out where these cheapo coils came from did you, I am going to guess from an online source that is selling a lot of 3rd country look-a-like auto parts. some parts need to come from a reliable source regardless of costs.

I ordered some "Denso OEM Replacement" coils from RockAuto... opened the box and right below "Denso" was big old stamp "China"... lmfao

@rm5902

9 ай бұрын

Thx 4 th info

@mikeschaner5853

9 ай бұрын

@rm5902 also stay away from ANY AND ALL "wholesale" or "closeout" items. They all break within a month, even the moog parts, and the will not honor the "30 day warranty" on any wholsesale/closeout parts

I'd also strongly consider a poor block ground, allowing for poor electrical sheilding

That's a new one on me. One that I keep hearing is Spark Plugs (high mileage) with wide gaps will Kill Coils. My friend bragged about not changing/regaping for plugs in 200k miles. I asked how many coils he's changed? He said half already. He couldn't believe the worn out spark plugs were the cause for Coil failure.

Good information Kenny thanks

The coils are right, the coils are lethal, but to injectors. Maybe you should report the coils to the NHTSA or some other regulatory agency so they can be taken off of the market. I can certainly understand that bad coils could induce voltages into the coils in the injectors and short them out. Just one more reason not to buy cheap parts from Amazon, or anywhere else for that matter. I know that short wave radios will take out speakers you annoying neighbor has, please don't ask how I know. Keep the good stuff coming buddy.

Injectors are closed until electric signal opens them. Symptoms you have are leaking/bleeding injectors - still happening after changing coils. Injectors are closed by springs - unlikely EMF could damage or change these. Possible causes of injector fault - contaminated fuel/aged fuel (varnish/pump needed changing?) fuel filter breaking down (cheap or very old fuel filter?) or just end of life of injectors - all original from same batch. Info with new fuel pump I just got says " fuel pump failure is most often caused by fuel contamination". Would be a good exercise to clean and test the faulty injectors - probably OK after a proper bench clean. Bad coils probably just means poor running and increased fuel consumption. Owner has been servicing with cheap parts - pump and fuel filter? Fuel?

Another great video with sharing technical information!

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

Unless the coils are literally shocking the injectors or they are direct injection it is not possible. As far as the injectors I do know injectors in diesels can be ruined by reverse polarity. Shielded twisted strands are used for the injectors to reduce Noise. The electronic noise they try to eliminate will mess with injector pulse timing, but the injector itself does not get effected. (RF interference). If the coils produce so much rf it is making the injectors themselves hang during pulse it will cease when you change the coil. I am guessing the injectors just had their own problems at the same time, common. I have replaced many wore out Ford injectors in those engines because the pintle was worn and the spray pattern was just terrible. I have also changed injectors on them because someone decided to throw a used set in and used the wrong color (flow rate).

Contaminated fuel will damage all injectors... the Danger High Voltage coils are probably a red herring.

“The O2s were original for an 01”. What? Oh yeah. Awesome!

Sounds great.

Everyday is a lesson.Great video.

Very informational and something to keep in mind

My guess is someone poured "Tune up a can" into the fuel and it ruined the fuel pump and the injectors. I ruined a fuel pump doing that once.

I had a 1999 F150 burn after putting those coils in. Could not find factory coils at that time. So got those and drove it 19 miles. When it went up in flames. I had one coil cutting out when the trans went to OD. Surging and though it was the trans to start with. Had factory coils on order, but it was 2020 so you know how it was back then.

@timewa851

9 ай бұрын

2020 was crazy. Lost all forward gears in VW golf. Drove home backwards lol. No cops, covid just started. Bought the diaphragm spring to repair transmission. Think the trans parts place tried cc fraud, tried to rent a moving van & buy some UGGS boots on my cc number. lol. Good times. Still got the golf. Sorry your truck burned down. Parts. Gets crazy.

Kenny hope y'all had a great weekend and I do remember the dirt dobbers nest to 😅,i really do watch alot of your videos 😂😅

Junk parts make our job harder.

@wendwllhickey6426

9 ай бұрын

Yea but there cheaper ,that what ceo say ,lol 😂

@wendwllhickey6426

9 ай бұрын

That's why you don't buy cheap crap by gm parts if you have a gm vehicle

@scottchapell31

9 ай бұрын

​@@wendwllhickey6426yeah and some GM Ford and mopar parts are made in China

Did you try looking for pintle humps on the injector waveforms?

I came acros a similar issue as this on a car that the kid owner mounted a cheap aftermarket knockoff of an msd coil pack above two injectors. it fried the injectors within a week and we found that the mounting bracket i made for him it was on had become magnetized as was the cover of the pack. In my tool box i have a post card size bit of magnetic field film and decided for fun to remove the coil pack and bench test it with the film next to it and every time i triggered the coil the film went dark indicating a very strong field coming from it. My knowledge of electromagnetic induction told me it was most likely strong enough to induce a current in the windings of the injectors solenoids high enough to saturate them or foul the solenoid in the injectors bad enough that they wouldn't work anymore from parts becoming highly magnetized.

@justarel

9 ай бұрын

I might mention piezo injectors can also be affected by a high enough magnetic field.

Consider this, the fuel injectors were 'bad' from the start, someone changed the plug coils, because it was the easy thing to do. I did the same thing on my '99 B3000 Mazda pickup 280K miles, it ran like crap, got worse as it warmed up, I was getting about 10mpg. I changed the plugs and wires, then the coil pack, there may have been a marginal improvement (or I was kidding myself). When I got to it, I changed all of the injectors (even though I had misfires on only 3 cylinders). The amount of effort to change 3 injectors is almost the same as changing out all 6. Knowing what I know now, would I have only changed out the injectors? No, the plugs were completely shot (platinum nib completely gone). The plug wires and coil pack were original, so no telling how much longer they would have lasted. So, I still would have swapped out 'everything' but I probably would have done it all at once, instead of 'piece meal'. But not having the precognition to know the future... 🙂 There is a possibility that those 'cheap coils' had a higher resistance because they used copper cladded (plated or coated) aluminum wire. I have seen that kind of wire in wiring in several cheap products, it has a higher resistance and can not carry the same amount of current, compared to solid copper wire. Anyway, keep up the good work, I'll be watching 👍

Yea I got this same problem you can test that with wand that test coils it would show it was firing about 3 inches before before I would get wand close enough to coil see if it was firing

EM field from that coil is way high. It's going to induce current on the very small thin wires of an injector. It acts like a transformer. When the flyback voltage happens it causes a huge spike in EM because there isn't a bleed off leg in it more than likely. Or just the more coils of wire can increase the EM off of it. OE coils are also likely shielded.

@needadate

9 ай бұрын

How could it be, when the current and power is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY lower than from an OE coil?

I'm glad you got a better laptop

I almost changed a computer on a 2011 corolla due to no injector pulse. I had a 301 code. It ran much worse than just i cylinder misfiring. I swapped coil positions and the miss moved with the coil. Ran good for a block then #4 misfired. Replaced #4 coil. It ran on all 4 but had 352 code (bad coil) . I didn't have any codes pertaining to coils till i started replacing coils. 4 new coils and it runs good and no codes.

Quality parts from China. If you buy something cheap you get something cheap.

That cheap crap should be literally illegal. I can’t believe the government even allows it to be sold given the obsession with emissions reduction.

Show the repairs, as SMA does,

Knock on wood, I replaced the coil packs on my 2012 e250 4.6 with cheap amazon ones. 8 cheap coils and 8 motorcraft plugs for $80 lol. 20k miles still ok. Its gonna be sold here soon. I dont buy cheap parts anymore. Ive been learning and doing alot of diagnostics and i figure its not worth throwing in variables. Thanks for this bit of insight. Ill keep the info in mind 👍

I'll keep this in mind, as my lady's 2010 F150 has the 4.6L. (Would there be a difference between the 2V and 3V engines? Hers is the 3V.) A couple of months ago I'd to replace the alternator, and everything I read recommended using the OEM part instead of aftermarket (for those unfamiliar, the ECM communicates with the alternator to tailor charging). We indeed live in interesting times.

which ray rainman ray?

Can't see it. You said higher. Im assuming you mean more resistance. That means there's less current. That should be less of a field created. Find it hard to believe the field off of a coil would damage an injector anyway. I could be wrong, it's happened before. But ????

Yep it was about cheap part

Is it possible a ripped pickup screen allowed trash to enter system and killed pump and clogged injectors? Had something similar happen to me and screen was ripped and 20 year old truck so was sentiment in tank and filter....have used cheap coils for years in fords and know several others that run them also and have had no issues...never seen the ones marked lethal voltage though....the ones ive seen and used had no markings or labels at all

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

He proved it wasn't the fuel pump when he did the diag.

An intriguing tale with deadly consequences! A cautionary story to always go to OEM and high quality parts don’t trust anyone else. The Ben Franklin saying that the foul taste of the low quality would be more memorable than the deal you saved so much money on. I don’t remember exactly.

Too much missing info. What was resistance readings on the injectors, hot and cold. What was results of injector drop tests of the injectors. My feelings are the injectors were stressed by maybe a bad pcm maybe, maybe, maybe caused by flyback voltage of the coils. You are assuming the coils were bad also. Changing all the injectors and using the old coils would be interesting to see if it ran bad after warming up. Would love to see some scope captures of both the coils and the injectors from cold start till they started to act up. Doesn’t the injectors all share power from the PCM? So one whacky injector could have been causing a issue with power from PCM to the rest of the injectors. There is more to this story than cheap coils taking out all the injectors.

Failing coils, so the ECU increases on time on the injectors to compensate, thinking from the misfire that it is running lean, as the oxygen sensors when hot are giving implausible readings from all the carbon. Then long on times heats the injectors, causing the marginal ones to break down and start to be intermittent. Higher resistance is in secondary side of the coils, primary side of the coils will be in the low ohm range, typically under 5 ohm, as the ECU is the one setting coil current and timing, and anything over around 5 ohm on the primary will never be firing well. Will bet as well if you take one of the fake coils, and slice it open with a grinder, that the wire inside is the horrid CCA wire, silver in colour, and this will always fail with time.

If I buy a used car and see non branded or non oem aftermarket coils I throw them away. Even used coils are better than most cheap coils. I would have never thought they would ruin injectors....I worry about the ECU.

Any Ford do not condemn the fuel pump before the Fuel Pump Driver Module unless it's 2012+

@richardcranium5839

9 ай бұрын

this was 01 driver modules didnt start till 03 04 for heritabe models

this is where a scope comes in. willing to bet the flyback on the cheap coils is making noise the computer is having a hard time dealing with. it probably messed up the computer grounds internally.

@needadate

9 ай бұрын

If so, swapping injectors would not have changed anything.

@CodycoWeb

9 ай бұрын

@@needadateit would if coils and injectors were changed at the same time. I don’t think the grounds were damaged but I feel flyback voltage may have been causing an issue with injector pulse or one or more injectors were causing an issue. The numbers on the scanner for injector pulse are calculated values not actual measured values. A scope would show what was truly happening.

Kenny, why don’t you do a live streaming on KZread? I would attend and even give $$

"Lethal Voltage", had nothing to do with the problem. All vehicles that have distributor less ignition systems have lethal voltage. Both the coil pack and the coil over plug designs have enough power running through them to kill you. Its not unique to the parts in this truck.

Holy homicide investigation....all because of cheap parts. OEM wins again.

Long story!

Don't ford coils and injectors share a ref wire, signal, or ground? You mentioned those coils having 1k less impedance than factory specs; if 1k mv are getting through sharing a common ground/signal/ref wire, very likely possibility that those coils allowed too much voltage through and it shorted the injectors open.

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

I don't see that happening. The pcm grounds the coils and injectors, and they get power directly from the battery,

@mikeschaner5853

9 ай бұрын

@AT-wl9yq what abt the 5v ref.? Does the fuel pump share the same ref pin? He said every time he did something it got a little better and then.... maybe just old parts. Not trying to argue, just poking and proding. There should be a fuse/circuit on each input coming to pcm for protection, or at the least pcm would compensate. I haven't looked at a ford schematic for years, but i do recall something funky about their coils/injectors. Just shooting for something for viable. If there was an emp type situation with this consistency, 1 would presume to find some melting or disfiguring of plastics to some degree. Emp waves are hot hot, and would think it would affect particular coil's operation, before any surrounding electronics. I'm willing to bet on an electrical spike that shorted ecu and injectors. What you're saying makes sense, don't get me wrong. But we could be looking at a failure snowball. Much is the case with older vehicles. Once you touch something, the other sode of the car needs fixed. This could be just failure after failure, and each failure is a result of the previous fix. The reason you don't rebuild just the top or bottom end of a 200k mile engine. New parts on top of old parts, causes bang.. Anyways, not arguing, just bouncing. 👍

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

@@mikeschaner5853All the is comes down to making sure you have a decent background in the subject, and know to apply it when making a diagnosis. This is just a general comment. I'm not singling you out. This is not a difficult diagnosis, providing you know what you are looking for. When you watch the video, Kenny proves a lot of things are working properly, and doesn't realize it. As far as I know, almost all modern vehicles (there's always a few odd designs out there), ground side switch fuel injectors and ignition coils. This is done so you don't have full battery power running through the pcm constantly, even when the components are not in use. Kenny was on the right path with his diagnosis, but he missed one thing that would have made his life easier. This is definitely an open/closed loop issue. He proved it in his diag and didn't realize it. The vehicle runs fine in open loop but the second the pcm goes into closed loop, the problems begin. This allows you to eliminate a lot of potential problems. Yesterday, I made a couple of posts going over the details of all this. There are not that many replies, so you should find them right away. Sometimes youtube doesn't show all the posts, so if you don't see them, just let me know and I'll make sure you get them. Either way, you're going to ask me what exactly was wrong with the vehicle. I didn't do the diag so I can't be 100% sure. However, my best guess would be that there was nothing wrong with any of it. Aftermarket coils and injectors were installed, and I think they may have been the wrong parts. Close, but not exactly the same. This is more common than you think. Just as an example, the Ford 5.0 (Coyote) is a very popular engine. They put them in Mustangs and F150's. Since they are considered to be the "same" engine, you may see part numbers that are the same for both vehicles. However, in the gen 1 and 2 5.0's, the Mustang got a 307 and the F150 got a 302, yet both motors are labeled 5.0. Not all parts are interchangeable, so mistakes can easily be made. I think this is most likely what happened. I come across it all the time. Running in open loop, the pcm disregarded the information it was getting from the O2 sensors. Once it dropped into closed loop, the close, but different spec'd parts were off enough for the pcm to think it was getting bad data, and that's why the vehicle was running bad, but only in closed loop. In open loop, all of those parts were proved to be working.

@mikeschaner5853

9 ай бұрын

@@AT-wl9yq wrong parts could explain a lot. And i would never ask for a diag over the phone. Electrical is def my weak point in auto repair, and i didn't feel like you were singling me out. Everything you said makes sense, and thanks for putting my theory to the test

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

@@mikeschaner5853 I worded it that way because I have a problem when I type. For some reason, when I type something out on a keyboard, what comes out tends to sound very negative, and sometimes even arrogant. And I never catch it until after it happens. In college I had to write all of my papers by hand first, then type it. Otherwise I wouldn't get a good grade. As a result, its just second nature for me to throw in some comments like, "I'm not saying you're wrong." or "This is a general comment, and its not directed at you.". Just things like that so people know I'm not trying to insult them or anything. If you want to learn more about auto electronics, its not as bad as people make it out to be. If you do some research into OBD2, you can learn a lot in a very short time. Every vehicle after1996 is standardized. Everything I wrote in my other posts (I assume you read them), is the same for every car on the road. In this case, it was an F150, but it could have been a BMW. I would have written the exact same thing. Same thing with OBD2 codes. A po456 usually means a gas cap on any car, regardless of make. Not everything is standardized, but a lot of it is, and its very helpful. One other piece of advice is a scan tool is not your primary tool for diagnostic work. A multimeter (DVOM) is. Hopefully, a scan tool can help point you in the right direction, but after that, you put the scanner down and use your meter to do the actual diag. I only mention it because most people have unrealistic expectations of what a scan tool can actually do.

I watched the last video of this, question was did the coils cause fuel injector failure 😮, happening again really would confirm a suspicious theory, lol china strikes again 😅

Experience cannot be bought.

I like to think of every car part as operating individually, but especially when the ground connections are on the same bolt or wire, I think of the parts as together. If it was a race car I would never ground things together as this could cause interference. A stock wiring harness should never be used with questionable aftermarket parts.

@AT-wl9yq

9 ай бұрын

That's impossible. The pcm grounds the injectors and ignition coils directly in order to activate them. They both get power directly from the battery.

Wouldn't it be far, far more reasonable to assume a connection with the _other_ common denominator - the freshly exchanged fuel pump? Dust/debris from the filter portion of an aftermarket fuel pump assembly. Seen it too many times to not assume that is EXACTLY what happened in your cases. That a high-resistance (= low energy) coil could somehow create EMI forceful enough to physically damage nearby components is nonsensical.

This is not really an odd problem. The truck itself is giving you enough information eliminate a huge number of possibilities. This is a classic open/closed loop issue. And by knowing that, your diagnosis will be much easier. You were on the right track with the "warm up mode" that you suspected, but you need to have a better understanding of what's going on. Your vehicle does go into a "warm up mode", but its called open loop operation. The reason for it is the key to the whole diagnosis. Your cats and O2 sensors don't work properly until they reach a certain operating temperature. This is a problem because when you start a vehicle cold, the information the pcm gets from the O2 sensors needed to set your fuel trims is out of spec. So much so that you would get an MIL every time you start your car. Open loop operation is when your PCM disregards the information it receives from the O2 sensors, and uses a basic fuel mapping strategy until your cats and O2 sensors reach a minimum operating temp (about 650 degrees if I remember correctly). Once temp is reached, your pcm starts to operate in closed loop. And all that means is the pcm is now using the data from your O2 sensors to set fuel trims. Without open loop, you would get codes and a check engine light every time you went to start your car in the morning. This is a valuable diagnostic tool. You can look at the data stream on your scan tool and force an open loop condition to confirm this issue. Essentially, forcing an open loop condition bypasses your O2 sensors. It can be achieved 2 ways. The first is to start the vehicle cold, so the pcm automatically runs in open loop. You can also force an open loop condition by running the engine at wide open throttle. This is done for safety reasons. At times, you may need to accelerate hard to prevent or avoid an accident. A safety concern has to be given priority over emissions. You can go back to hugging trees once you take the foot off the gas. At one point in the video, you said you floored it and the truck took off. It would have been nice to confirm open/closed loop operation with a scan tool, but the fact that the engine ran good cold and under WOT really confirms this is what's going on. You can now use this information to diagnose the vehicle. When you bypass your O2 sensors, everything runs fine, so this tells you the issue has to be o2 sensor/fuel trim related. The PCM is getting bad data, and as a result, your fuel trims are off. You can eliminate a bad fuel pump. You proved it was working OK when you forced an open loop condition. Same thing with your spark plugs. It can't be a vacuum leak or low compression either. The problem must be part of the system that effects fuel trims. It also can't be a bank 1 or bank 2 only issue. By eliminating all the things it can't be, there isn't too much left, and that makes you diag a lot easier.

Kenny that a scam Coail i seen this before make folks aware there are scam coails like that let people know this is a scam that needs to be shutdown I seen a video on this topic please make folks aware of this

Like getting progressive lenses in eyeglasses over the internet. Good luck...

if you will send me your old computer ill see if i can fix it for you free of charge

@timewa851

9 ай бұрын

blown caps? maybe?

Can't be a successful mechanic, without having some sort of ADHD or OCD and the combination of them both can make or break you as a mechanic

EMF attacking the injectors , sounds like Darth Vader or a Di lithium problem from star trec , emitting Glingon lazor waves to each injector from the clingon coils from the Channa galixcy lol .