I so greatly appreciate this careful handling of these hot button issues! The pastoral heart is something you both uniquely bring, and it expands my perspective (in a good and careful way) to respond with charity in these charged conversations. Thank you for weighing in on this discussion!

@uncutpod

3 ай бұрын

We are glad it was a helpful conversation.

OK, let me be the simplistic unlearned type: how about meeting the questions with the Word of God’s answers? Maybe our feelings or opinions don’t matter as much as the God’s truth. Just a perspective.

@todayisthebest887

8 ай бұрын

I agree with looking at The Bible for answers and ethics. I don't think it's that easy when putting Biblical love into practice and walking along other sinners you don't understand or agree with.

@randyletourneau3430

8 ай бұрын

I agree that God’s word must be followed. We must love these kids, and we must love these parents, and draw them to Jesus, or keep them connected with Jesus so He can help these people as they struggle with painful brokenness.

Jesus was kind to the prostitute but He said ,"Go and sin no more"

I appreciate the gentle spirit of this discussion. I came upon this because of my own research into Andy Stanley. I think what is missing is a little research and context. Andy Stanley has been criticized broadly by his detachment of the historical Jesus from the “Bible” per se. And his disparaging views on Biblical teaching versus his penchant for topical preaching. Mohler’s response is informed of a strong evolution away from Biblical affirmation on Stanley’s part. He seems to not want to endorse publicly-yet-a full endorsement of LGBTQ practice. But he is developing an ecclesiastical justification for such a position. Hints includes Stanley’s dismissive comments on “clobber verses” in his message after the conference. Why do we think Stanley is so cagey? Because there are many in his church who hold orthodox beliefs, and he is trying to straddle the fence. As far as addressing the tension, like other sins, we can absolutely be loving supporting and such. But not endorse the activity. The test is, would the message resonate if we were talking about alcoholism or adultery? So, in short, in the long context it seems Stanley’s exerting damage control and Mohler is calling the trend. And to your last point, Stanley really didn’t explain their ministry to youth, just that it is living (very good) and exists.

@forevermenot777

3 ай бұрын

I agree with everything you just said! And your question about switching out the sin and seeing how that would change the conversation -- I had the same idea! The topic of ethics, holiness, and godly love is very charged in our current culture. I think back to Jesus and the trap questions about paying taxes or about reasons for divorce -- he was responding carefully in a politically tumultuous environment. However, he upheld God's truth and exalted His holiness, never redefining the terms to lower the standard. It's something to carefully apply today as the world we live in becomes more divisive!

Shepherds have a responsibility of not just feeding, but also of leading. And this always raises the stakes of the significant work that pastors do. Especially ones like Andy Stanley who are pastors to pastors and direct influencers on not just the generation of pastors that they are in, but also of the ones to come. Case in point, the podcasters express a clear favorability of and philosophical familiarity with Stanley in this discussion-even though they don’t know him or have followed him closely. And that attests to the subtle reach of NorthPoint Community Church’ philosophy of ministry and missiology in Christian culture. I came away with two big takeaways from parts 1 and 2 of this episode: 1. Pastors must beware the false dichotomy of their being a distance between that which is truth and that which is pastoral. “Only that which is ultimately true can be genuinely pastoral.” Mohler is misrepresented as being more concerned with preserving the truth of biblical orthodoxy-while Stanley is hailed as the compassionate, pastoral heart with greater concern for the struggling sheep of his fold. This misrepresentation pits one as being theological and another as being pastoral. As if there is a divide between the two. One actually believes that the sheep are best served by the truth, and the other that the truth must be disposed of to best love the sheep. This is a false dichotomy which led to my second observation… 2. We were so long and far in the weeds of considering the motives of the two theologians in this discussion, we glossed over the obvious presence, practice and promotion of false teachers and teaching. Stanley did stack the conference with “affirming Christians”; some of whom who are presently married to SS spouses, which means they are living in open rebellion and unrepentance towards the God they’re claiming to be serving. And all of this is done in the name of love and in open defiance of a multiplicity of Scriptural warnings and commands. We are clearly nuancing our way out of obedience. At the end of the day, the gospel is distorted not demonstrated by these occasions. Jesus loved us best and demonstrated it not by denying that we’ve sinned, but by dying for those sins. Only in the cross of Christ can we resist the temptation of minimizing our depravity to maximize God’s loving kindness. Only the gospel can handle the tension of believing our brokenness while embracing our belovedness.

@randyletourneau3430

8 ай бұрын

Jesus always put the people before their sins. He had grace and compassion for the woman at the well. He exposed her sin, but cared for her by a gentle and gracious approach. He ALWAYS put people first. There is always time to correct behavior and confront sin once someone is following Jesus, just like He does with you and me. Andy wants to bring them to Jesus, or keep same sex attracted people following Jesus, and we can take care of the attraction later. There is no reason to have to lead with truth when it can push people away from Jesus.

@KRashad

8 ай бұрын

Jesus put people people before their sins, but he also put the truth before the people. He calls all sexual sinners like me and that woman at the well to Himself with the truth, not by obfuscating it. Always with grace and truth, but never with them divorced from each other. Notice that with the woman at the well, it was Jesus who brought up her sinning@@randyletourneau3430 . But he only brought it up to offer Himself as the remedy, the hope and the cure. But he had to bring it up to do so. He had to lead with the truth.

@geraldyoumans3671

8 ай бұрын

Jesus said, " go and sin no more". "If you love me obey my commands". If you say you are a true follower of Jesus you don't continue in your sin. 1 John 1:9.

@randyletourneau3430

8 ай бұрын

@@geraldyoumans3671These are commands for those that follow him. He never led with that, but called his followers to repentance. The entire premise of the law was to prove that it was impossible to please God without His spirits help. Why do we ask, or expect, non-followers of Jesus to follow his commands and please him when we have already shown that this is an impossible ask. The goal is to win the heart of people and make them followers, THEN you can start asking them to obey Gods commands. To flip the process is to be anti-Jesus.

@geraldyoumans3671

8 ай бұрын

@@randyletourneau3430 Did I not understand the SS people were calling themselves Christians?

Trite, but true: "Only two choices on the shelf--pleasing God or pleasing self." Obedience or rebellion. Just as you cannot be a committed, Biblical, Christ-following Christian, while being involved in an extramarital affair, you cannot be a committed, Biblical, Christ-following Christian, while being involved in a homosexual relationship. Sexual sin should never be affirmed.

Andy Stanley would rather please Man, Albert Mohler rather please God. Shepherding a flock does not mean you ignore Scripture. Yes kids have “urges”, but who doesn’t, that doesn’t mean they are God honoring or right. We love sinners, but we don’t condone their lifestyle that God didn’t condone.

@randyletourneau3430

8 ай бұрын

No, Andy cares for people, and Albert is more concerned with being right. Jesus always put people first. He cared for, and had compassion for people. He knows he will deal with their sin, just like He deals with yours and mine.

@neekomofoluwaso2819

8 ай бұрын

@randyletourneau3430 The truth being shared by Albert is God dealing with the sin Andy is choosing to cuddle people with this struggle in! Please watch first-hand accounts of people who attended the conference even from the affirming and non-affirming positions (like Alan Shlemon and Zack Lambert) who both distinctly AGREED that the tone of the conference presupposed this lifestyle is not a sin; there's nothing to repent of and it should be embraced by the parents who attended. So why expect God to work conviction and repentance when you tell people have nothing to repent of? Jesus always put people first and had compassion but He also gave those who claim to belong to him a clear instruction - "If you love me, obey my commands". As Christians (regardless of our sin struggles), we pick up our cross daily and follow Him.

You boy's seem to be hem hawing in my opinion because you don't understand the problem, solution or the process

@CameronLienhart

9 ай бұрын

Ok. Enlighten us.

@larryjohnson2693

8 ай бұрын

The physical action is not the problem.... murder, abortion, same sex marriage all the hot topics that gets everyone so riled up.... we're sinners before we sin....the heart the spirit the birth is the problem...oh don't mention it ☺️

You guys haven’t done your due diligence and research. The Truth and clear teachings of the Word shouldn’t be trumped by our notion of inclusivity. True shepherds should love and lead without watering down the truth.

@uncutpod

2 ай бұрын

I’m curious what exactly you feel we seem to be missing. Research about the conference or what we believe the Bible says? If you truly are concerned you can watch part 2. We’ve talked in depth about our position on this issue in other episodes. Our discussion is more about showing our evolving thinking as we discuss the issue, the goal wasn’t to present a polished answer or response. Anyways thanks for watching and engaging.

Where is the WORD of GOD in all of this? Why do you feel for Andy? He is moving his congregation away from the WORD of GOD. Does a pastor's heart affirm people in their sin? Read what the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:11. I am confused by your discussion.

If Andy is teaching something that opposes his beliefs, he's not being a helpful teacher. That's confusing and hypocritical.

ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE OBEYS GODS WORD OR ONE DISOBEYS GODS WORD IT IS A CHOICE YOU CANNOT PICK AND CHOOSE BIBLE PASSAGES OVER OTHERS TO SUIT YOURSELF NOT ACCEPTABLE