CORRECTIONS, thanks to the folks who commented below: 0:08 - Unbonding is removing the ground strap that connects ground and neutral, not ground to frame. 3:25 - The generator is a single phase, so it couldn’t run “out of phase.” Instead of 120v going to each leg, most or all of the 240v was going to one leg, and almost none to the other.

@jtjones4081

6 ай бұрын

I just removed the ground wire from the plug terminal that goes into my generator and left my generator bonded. That way I can still use it around my property remotely and have the bonded ground.

@user-te8nk9ex3e

6 ай бұрын

Each leg always has 120v to neutral. The 240v is across the two legs without a neutral. With a missing neutral, 240v is present across the loads of the two legs in series. Since the loads will not be equal, the voltage drop across devices on each leg is different and some devices will see too high of a voltage and may burn up as happened with your surge suppressors.

@jtjones4081

6 ай бұрын

@bluesrider. The 240v cable between my generator and box plugs into the generator carrying the 2 hits, ground and neutral. When the wires from the female receptacle on the generator go down to where you unbounded your Westinghouse they connect to their respective tabs, which are then bonded. What’s the difference between removing that jumper bond wire on the generator and having your transfer switch only connect the neutral, 3 wire config, and me removing the copper ground wire in the cable from the male ground pin on the plug? I don’t have a transfer switch I’m wired into a 50 a breaker in the main panel and manually switch off the grid after the Power goes out.

@jtjones4081

6 ай бұрын

(Unbonded) For 20 years I’d been connecting my bonded generator to my main panel with no problems. After seeing a James Condon video on this topic I unhooked the cable ground at the plug. Had a power outage and no problem, but I don’t want any problems. I just don’t see the difference between what I did with the cable and unbonding inside the genny. I have an 8’ ground rod right below the main box I plug the gen into.

@trustme7731

12 күн бұрын

​@@jtjones4081 That was very foolish . Now you have no ground to the generator. If there is a ground fault the circuit breaker on the generator won't see it and it will burn until the wires burn through. Not to mention various code violations.

A 120/240 generator cannot go out of phase as it only has one phase. What probably happened is loosing the neutral caused the power being consumed to find an alternate route back to the generator. Meaning that instead of 120 -N - 120. you had for example 50-N-190. Those surge protectors operate by clipping any over voltages. depending on the specific component (a metal oxide Varistor is usually used and rated around 140-150v) will cause the Protector to try to protect. IN this case the Surge it was seeing wasnt due to power issues as a fault in the wiring of the cable. Glad you found what caused it.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thank you Matt, I appreciate the explanation 👍

@Teenagegoogoomuk

6 ай бұрын

Over revving will also clip them MOV's, Diodes, trans, IC and wipe out most battery chargers, computers, digital equipment etc. 130v at 65 hz starts driving shit crazy and turns the Genie into smoke

@Teenagegoogoomuk

6 ай бұрын

Your partially correct, You will read different voltages at the loads but keep in mind that the generator still only does 120vpk 240v p/p If you have equal loads say two identical fridges can you run them in series no neutral? Or say have 120v compressor in series with a deep freezer in the garage? Will one run and not the other? Ahhh the age old question? Yes or no, in or out, up or down, right left, 1/0, will one burn up and not the other? Keep in mind what is in series and what is in parallel, isn't electricity fun.

@ianbelletti6241

6 ай бұрын

​@@bluesriderDFhe's on the right track but his explanation is erroneous. The lost generator neutral caused a backfeed through all the branch circuit neutrals putting 240v on your 120v equipment.

@troubleshooter1975

6 ай бұрын

@@ianbelletti6241 No. he is spot-on. It does not put 240V on your 120V legs, it depends on the impedances of the connected loads at any given time. It can vary between 0V and 240V on a leg (and the converse on the opposite leg). I did not see any errors or typos in what he stated.

Definitely a classic example of a floating neutral. A couple years back went on a service call in a late 1970s home, where the TV, DVR, DVD player and stereo system in living room smoked up so bad it set off the smoke detectors in the hallway and master bedroom after a 1500 watt electric fireplace had been running for over an hour, plugged into a different outlet on the other end of the living room. Come to find out, all the receptacles were backstab connection and part of a multiwire circuit (L1 & L2, sharing a common neutral) and the neutral burned up on a receptacle upstream, making everything downstream into a series 240V circuit and depending on the load balancing, voltages applied accross the load can range from nearly 0, to nearly 240. Also pointed out to the homeowner and corrected, the two single pole breakers controlling the multiwire branch circuit, by installing an identified handle tie to ensure that if either leg trips the entire circuit is dead, protecting anyone working on it thinking its dead when in fact one leg is still hot, evidently this wasn't required when the home was built. This whole catastrophe could have been avoided, had article 300.13 (B) of the NEC been applied which states that for multwire branch circuits, the continuity of the grounded (neutral) conductor shall not depend on connections to receptacles, lamp holders and so forth, where the removal of such devices would interrupt continuity. What this means, is that the neutral on those receptacles should have been connected via a pigtail

@pomonabill220

6 ай бұрын

I HATE backstab receptacles!!!! Always use spec grade clamping connections, or at least use a J hook connection.

I think the biggest lesson here is to always test before you need it. After making any changes, test and verify. Glad you weren't hurt.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thank you Mike. The cable tested okay as far as continuity, but failed when under load. Definitely learned something here.

@Mike80528

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF That's rough. A continuity test is usually enough. My first thought after all the troubleshooting was "why didn't you test the cable first since it's the easiest? "And then I realized I would have followed the same process as..."it's just a cable and how could THAT be the issue?"

Nice detective work. Thanks for the info.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks so much 👊

This was one of my arguments for not unbonding my generator, having more or less a redundant neutral. In the end I did unbond it and have not had any issues, but this video shows the importance of having a good solid connection all the way around.

@dirtdiver2389

Ай бұрын

Why did you unbind it if you were for bonding? This topic is so confusing, nobody has a definitive answer. I haven't had an issue running my generator bonded.

@trustme7731

5 күн бұрын

@@billyfowler9423 Using the ground as a current carrying conductor, bonded at both ends, is a serious code violation.

You are like a electrician detective. Glad it was only a couple of surge protectors that burned and not you home.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

LOL, thank you! I'm hoping things are uneventful going forward!

Side note: 250.30 of the NEC requires separate bonding wire to the service panel when connecting a generator in this situation if the neutral remains connected to the grid. However, if the transfer switch also separates the neutral from the grid, then the generator needs to be internally bonded.

@stevehanely9446

6 ай бұрын

The neutral is never connected to the grid as it's generated by the center tap of the line transformer on the pole

The surge protector did catch on fire because it had a very /low/ resistance. Not high resistance. The MOVs inside go low resistance when exposed to over voltage, and they are supposed to short out and blow your fuses. It can be dangerous supplying power from a generator as it might no be able to make enough short-circuit current to trip thr fuses.

Don't confuse neutral with ground. Ground only carries current when something is wrong. Neutral carries all the unbalanced current between L1 and L2.

@philipoakley5498

6 ай бұрын

That unfortunately isn't as true as you would normally hope. With the increased use of better protective earth connects you can easily get a competition between the supply company's attempts at providing a low impedance neutral (truly reference to earth at the generators, subs, and transformers) and the parallel earthing impedances for the multipoint safety protections. It gets worse in three phase supplied zones where the individual phase takes are unbalanced and the protective earth-neutral bonding enhances the diverted neutral current. It will depend on your generic location as to whether the local buildings and construction styles will make it more or less likely , and not forgetting 'fault' conditions.

Before you unbonded your ground at the generator, your neutral current was flowing through the ground conductor in the extension cord and the bonding jumper. So it was a related problem and unbondining your generator is correct. A ground rod would NOT have mitigated this problem even if you had connected it directly to your service entrance rod. That would have made the neutral current flow through your ground rod wires.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I agree. Thanks for posting!

When the neutral get loose like that one leg goes high, the other one goes almost to zero volts like you said on the video and everything is connected in series between the two phases. The culprit is the loose neutral connection. It can also happen on the utility side of the installation.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, there's nothing like learning in real life, LOL. This is scary stuff.

@pomonabill220

6 ай бұрын

Also known as a floating neutral.... VERY bad!!!

Thanks for taking the time to make and post this video. I had this happen to a friend of mine as well. It blew out a GFCI wall socket in the master bath, and in the master bedroom, a TV and a clock radio. Oddly, everything was isolated to his bedroom and master bath, though the open neutral was on the generator-to-transfer switch cord.

If you haven’t already done so, I’d recommend a whole house surge protector. Although if it’s installed at the main panel and you are running over the transfer switch circuits only that would probably be bypassed. One thing I’ve done at my house is install a voltmeter at where the generator goes into the transfer switch. That way I could see abnormal high voltage if my neutral was loose.

@tomschmidt381

6 ай бұрын

I use a generator interlock on our service entrance. Like you I added a generator status panel next to it that shows current and voltage on each leg, and frequency. The generator is electric start so the status panel includes a DC voltmeter to monitor battery voltage and verify the battery maintainer is working properly. I also recommend installing a whole house surge protector in addition to point of use ones and also at hard wired devices.

Even if you had a bonded neutral and ground on the generator it still may have caused problems if the ground is also loose in your plug.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

That's true.

Thank you for everything! I’m glad you and your family are safe 🙏

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Same to you!

I am not an electrician, but have been doing home renovations for 30 years. I installed a 120 volt Coleman RV heat pump in my kitchen ceiling. I also installed a dedicated duplex outlet for this purpose. However, when I turned on the heat pump the first time, it ran but was noisy. So I shut it off and went to inspect the heat pump itself. The motor case was extremely hot. I troubleshooted the possibilities, and found I had connected the neutral to the neighboring breaker, so the circuit was 240 volt. OOOPS.. Five years later, by some magic, the heat pump is still working. Oversight happens to everyone, so your extension cord failure is not a surprise, but glad you figured it out. (PS: during the course of home renovations, I found many many electrical and plumbing faults, done by the "PROFESSIONALS".)

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I feel like no good deed goes unpunished as they say. I did a lot of research on this ahead of time, and I really thought I had everything covered.

Good info. Thanks for sharing !! So glad the damage was minimal!! Ride safe!!

I had a series arc fault that started a fire in my basement. The load was a 120V 10A steam humidifier fed from a 15A outlet through a 25ft 14ga extension cord. It ran this way for many years. The cause was a poor connection at the female end of the extension cord. The arc persisted for a long duration and it burned itself open without tripping the standard 15A breaker. It started the wall on fire. Fortunately I was able to extinguish the fire before it got out of control. The solution: I ran a new dedicated 15A AFCI circuit to a GFCI outlet mounted clear of any flammables to feed only the humidifier. Running continuous unattended high current loads through manufactured cables or extension cords is hazardous because the connections in such cheaply manufactured cables cannot be inspected and verified. Arc fault circuit protection is my new best friend. 😊 And all extension cords get side eye from me now. 😒

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Oh man! Glad you caught that. I had this house built and I'm familiar with it. When you buy somebody else's place, you have no idea what they did. One thing I wish they did here was use 12ga / 20amp for more circuits, especially in the garage. That might actually be required now.

The same exact condition that you experienced occurs all too often when utility feeds coming into a building looses the neutral connection, usually at the pole due to windy conditions or sometimes in the meter pan due to corrosion. The voltages go out of balance and cause all kinds of grief. The first clue is when some lights are dimming while others are too bright and subsequently burn out. There isn’t much that can go wrong that is worse than this.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, scared us real good.

Very common issue on RV's that have 50a service connection. Im RV service tech electrical specialist. Old cords or old power pedistals at RV parks. For various reasons if the neutral line fails plug, cord, etc and a low resistance appliance like the hot water heater kicks on electric causes a huge imbalance on the two lines of 120 and typically fries a bunch of stuff in seconds.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Holy smokes! Literally!

I suspect this is what happened to me. A few years ago we needed the generator, I plugged it in just like I always do and the Keurig coffee maker took a hit. Seems like we lost other electrical appliances also. Inspection of the extension cord showed a loose wire. I don't remember which one it was. But I suspect it was the neutral. I tightened all wires in both ends of the cord and everything began to work correctly. Thanks for posting this, it helps me understand what I experienced.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I guess you were fortunate too.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been stressing about the floating neutral question for about a month now and I am almost finished with the complete installation of my system. You answered my questions and really gave me down to earth answers. I'm good now. Thanks man.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Well you just made my night. 😊 You are welcome!

@gblargg

6 ай бұрын

"gave me down to earth answers." I see what you did there.

As others have said, thanks for sharing the story and glad everyone is ok. Sharing these experiences helps others.

@bluesriderDF

5 ай бұрын

Thanks so much. That's why I posted it, I'm glad it's getting some views.

Personal experiences - the best lessons for those of us who are still learning! Thank you!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome!

I have experienced loose connections at the generator end plug that I suspect is a result of vibration from the generator. These connections need to be checked regularly.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Wow, who knew? I really like the new cable. Because everything is soldered, sealed, and I can see it.

Watch out, now all hardware on your electrical system which contains MOVs may have had their lifespan shortened. 2:31 These surge protectors are armed with metal oxide varistors which are simply components in parallel with the mains which will drop in resistance when exposed to transient spikes literally designed to short circuit and “neutralise” “clip” the spikes but with no ground on the generator it’s clear the open neutral put significant disruption in the MOV causing it to clip and short the mains.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Yup. I will be going through and replacing those.

@theLuigiFan0007Productions

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF They're also referring to your appliances themselves, because their power supplies often have MOVs and suppression capacitors rates for a specific voltage for filtering as well. So, computers, TVs, washing machines, microwaves, etc, ALL have probably had their power supply lifespan shortened. If you have things breaking left and right a year or two down the line.... it was probably that power spike that caused it. If you were lucky though, the powerstrips that burned took nearly all the load and gave their lives to clamp the voltage down. Those components are designed to short as long as there's still a voltage spike. Chances are you'd be replacing a lot more devices if you didn't have them plugged in, so thank APC for making fairly durable equipment. I always recommend their stuff.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

​@@theLuigiFan0007Productions Time will tell I guess 😢

@theLuigiFan0007Productions

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF Yeah, hopefully things took the path of most luck and least resistance. Good thing you found that though, that cable would have raised hell down the line regardless. Perhaps schedule a routine cable inspection, generators vibrate, and it probably loosened itself, now that I've had a day to think on what I saw in the video. Hey, you got it straightened out, and your system should be reliable again. Best of luck, stay safe, and have a great day.

Thanks for sharing! Glad everyone is OK!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I appreciate that, thanks.

Do not count your bus bars as phases. They are not phases only bus bar A and bus bar B same phase. Very good content in your post. Thanks for sharing. Rest assured most of us do not think of checking the UL listed store bought extensions. Now I will.

@philipoakley5498

6 ай бұрын

From a UK perspective, I'd say they were anti-phase, so were 'different'. Each of the systems have their strengths and weaknesses ;-)

Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge Brother. Much Appreciated !!

Thank you for the lesson. About to install an interlock kit and buy some cables for a new generator. Will definitely be checking the connections all around.

@bluesriderDF

Ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Great info. Glad the family is safe.

@bluesriderDF

5 ай бұрын

Much appreciated, thank you!

Thanks for the video and especially your troubleshooting process. It should be helpful for many viewers.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Thanks for bringing awareness!! Will definitely be inspecting all cables as I am currently installing a transfer switch and generator inlet at my house.

@bluesriderDF

2 ай бұрын

This is exactly why I posted it. Thank you!

Holy sh*t thanks for sharing this incredible lesson learned for all of us. Im glad everyone is ok and the floating neutral was not the cause.

@bluesriderDF

Ай бұрын

Thank you!

Excellent work tracking this down. Good due diligence on your part.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks!

100% this was caused by a floating neutral. In Australia we use three phase and not split/2 phase like North America, however the outcome is the same. The most loaded phase goes low and the lightest loaded phase goes up to the phase to phase voltage of 415 for us. If my eyesight serves me correct, the smoking gun is the wire ends in the female lead socket, they were tinned with solder, and absolute no no! Copper has decent spring tension and will maintain a tight bond under a screw terminal, if the conductor strands are tinned with solder, the lead will slowly flow away from the pinch point with time and become lose. I have seen this more times than I care to remember and always go off my nut when I see people doing it. I was next to a piece of equipment that lost its neutral some time back, it was like firing my 44 magnum without hearing protection, I traced the fault to a lose neutral that had indeed been solder tinned and worked lose with time.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Wow, that is crazy!!

Your split phase imbalanced load could not get back to center tap on genset windings and found a path via N-G surge MOV’s. Typically surge protectors have a thermal fuse that should had taken it out of the circuit. That being said. It could had came back through you if you were a lower impedance path. Would recommend reinstalling that genset bond strap and keep a better eye on your connections and balance. Also check your connections to earth.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

It seems like having 2 paths to ground is "safer" even though not to code.

Thank you for sharing your experience. By sharing this you may have helped others. Kudos to you sir!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

That's what I hope for. Thanks for posting 👍

Thanks! I’m going to check my cable tonight and my shore power cable also.

Thanks for this video. It definitely made me go "Huh." I think I'm going to check all my connections now.. 😊

2:37 OH MAN those models LOVE to do that when “protecting its load.” I worked in IT at a community college a few years ago. We had a TON of these that looked exactly like this in one of our largest buildings(happened to be administration! Lol!), we had TONS of equipment and cameras go offline and not come back up. We were a little confused until we got into the office Monday morning after spring break to find that the utility replaced the pad mounted transformers and accidentally doubled the voltage somehow and so all of the 120v surge protectors burned up EXACTLY like the one seen here! 2:37 all of the computers that were plugged directly into the wall were fine because they could handle 220-240v. We ended up spending like $35,000~ I believe replacing all of the power strips and old crappy 120v power strip style APC battery backups from the same era. I’ll admit, they sure did their job! Albeit not in the most elegant way possible. 😅 The other surge strip models from APC & Eaton/Tripp Lite were perfectly fine so if you ask me APC made a bad product and refuses to do anything about it or admit it. They all burned up so badly I have NO CLUE HOW NONE OF THE FIRE ALARMS WENT OFF!!! All of our Eaton battery backups were fine as they shut off their internal input breakers and remained on battery/off until the proper voltage was restored. Can’t say the same about that generation of APC battery backups though…

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I am n IT Director and I use AOC all over the place 😮

Thankyou for the reminder to check your generator cords because you can get a defective cord and things do wear out as well as the fact that terminal screws can sometimes loosen.

When your house is powered by a generator neutral and live legs work 100% the same was as when connected to the grid. The idea behind unbonding generators is that the code says neutral and ground should be bonded only at the main service panel, but unbonding the generator won't make anything fail, *stop worrying, it wasn't your fault* Blame only the importer of that extension cord. I say importer because it would be a shame if that thing was actually made in the US! If it was the plug on the other end it could get loose due to vibrations, but that socket was attached to a plug on the wall. On the other hand having a generator bonded may cause some devices to not work correctly, I'm from Spain so I don't know exactly how those transfer switches are wired to the main service panel in the US. I guess a bonded neutral after the main service panel can make at least some GFCI breakers trip. I'm not sure if it can cause more problems. The ground wire of the extension cord connects the ground wiring of your house to the chassis* of the generator and if the generator is bonded to its neutral too. The neutral wire of the extension cord connects the neutral wiring of your house to the neutral of the generator and if the generator is bonded to its ground too. *Usually the generator chassis (frame) is connected to the alternator housing by an extra ground wire, if not, only the alternator housing and engine will be bonded to the neutral if it is neutral bonded. Losing the neutral means the 240V from both live legs won't have a neutral to keep the 120V for the 120V legs, depending on the power of the devices connected to each 120V leg the voltage on one leg will be higher than the voltage on the other leg. If you have the exact same load on both 120V legs (almost impossible but let's pretend there's a 100W light bulb on each leg) the voltage will be 120V on both legs as if nothing happened. But as soon as one leg starts using more power than the other, its voltage will decrease by the same amount as it will increase on the other leg, usually ending up with almost 240V on one leg and almost zero volts on the other leg. *That's what killed your surge protectors,* a simple overvoltage, and it is normal for surge protectors to overheat. Melting and burning are possible too, although the plastic should be self-extinguishing. If the plastic housing of the surge protector develops a hole due to the heat or already had ventilation slots some sparks can come out, therefore never place a surge protector near things like curtains, upholstery, carpet, wallpaper, etc. that aren't fire-rated. Wooden floors and walls may resist heat and/or sparks but it is always best to place the protectors on non-combustible materials such as ceramic tiles, concrete, drywall, etc. Surge protectors will only stop overheating when the voltage returns to normal levels or the power is disconnected. If the surge protector itself is damaged by the excessive voltage and it remains powered it will continue to (over)heat until current stops flowing, that can be due to a fuse or automatic switch built into the protector, due to the breaker that powers that circuit tripping or due to the internal circuitry of the surge protector being completely burned out, it seems the later happened to one of your protectors. The metal cylinder with a plastic tip under the two coils of the surge protector that suffered less damage is a thermal fuse, even if only one is visible I guess the new unit should have one for each MOV or at least one sandwiched between each two MOVs. *The old APC SurgeArrest if made before 2003 was included in recall number 14-203* for melting and burning, I don't know the exact reason, maybe those were lacking thermal fuses or used the wrong type or defective ones. Thermal fuses are placed next to the MOVs and when those get dangerously hot the thermal fuse(s) will blow up cutting the power to the MOV(s) and the rest of the circuit. Anyway without the surge protectors 120V devices connected to that leg that were powered on could have been seriously or irreversibly damaged if they were not designed to withstand 240V so one surge protector could have caused a fire but they probably saved (some of?) your electronic devices, after writing all this I don't remember if you mentioned other damaged devices in the video... Some devices like phone chargers, computer power supplies, TVs, some LED bulbs, etc. are designed for "universal voltage" or "100-250V" which in theory goes from the 100V used in Japan to the 250V used in some countries but they actually work correctly from a lower voltage that can be 85V to 90V to a higher one that is usually 265V, approximately 10% above or below the values indicated on the label. Also those "universal voltage" devices won't care if the frequency is 50Hz or 60Hz, anything between 47Hz and 53Hz is safe.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Okay, I'm going to need to re-read this a few times. Thank you!

@ruben_balea

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF Do not mention it. I know how stressful it is to live through a potentially disastrous experience and not be sure if it was caused by a defect or if you made a mistake. If you want to read a "little" 😅more I'll tell you about my similar experience: I've 3-phase power at home, that's common in Europe, when a few years ago they installed smart meters they left the neutral wire loose in a terminal and some time later it failed, I had a lot of power surge protectors (single socket models, one for each electronic device) and the breakers started to trip, some of the surge protectors also released some smoke although none got hot enough to melt. Next to the main panel I have a voltmeter for each phase so I immediately saw that in some line that should have 230V there was almost 400V and in others not even 10V. Then I immediately understood that the neutral had been interrupted somewhere, the last one who had modified the wiring had been *me* to replace a changeover switch so I thought I had forgotten to properly tighten a terminal so I started blaming myself until I verified like a dozen times that my work had been completely correct. It was an hour in which my blood pressure must have reached a record point because I ended up with a terrible headache, every time I confirmed that everything was fine I had the feeling that I had forgotten to check something and I had the need to check everything again 😓 Suddenly I remembered that they had also replaced the meter a few months earlier so perhaps the fault had not been made by me but by the technicians from the electrical company, I went to check it and indeed the neutral wire was completely loose 🤬 I reconnected it correctly and discovered that the wire terminals of the three phases were also insufficiently tightened 😡 I went back into the house and turned up all the switches and the voltages were 100% correct. But when I started plugging in devices and testing the ones that were on at the time of the failure, I had more than €2,500 worth of damaged devices, not counting the surge protectors. Before calling the insurance I decided to check the damage on each device and fortunately all but one had built-in surge protection and their fuse had blown. I replaced the fuses and for safety reasons also the varistors and after a few hours of work I only had a damaged power supply worth around €90 😮‍💨 so no need to deal with the insurance. I only had to rebuild half of that power supply, in the high voltage side everything was burned, not even a simple resistor or capacitor was saved, I had never seen a case like it before, I think it is because it was very compact the conductive electrolyte from the filter capacitor mixed with the carbon residues from the components that burned first acted as an great conductor causing too much current to pass through the other components that in principle should not have suffered so much damage. Most of the components only cost me €5 but it had a slim size capacitor that was almost €10 and I had to wait several days for it, while one of the same capacity and normal size didn't even cost €2, so I put the normal size one on it and modified the power supply housing to make room for it, basically using a heat gun to bend the plastic cover a bit. Maybe it's not that pretty, but it's in the attic and no one sees it, it's the power supply for the TV antenna amplifier. Google for "IKUSI 2845" if you want to see the amplifier and an "IKUSI 270011" for the spare power supply.

Nice job finding the problem. In my home the surge protectors are in steel boxes next to the fuse box. Yes I still have fuses on the old part of the house. I never, ever use any plastic electrical devices like a UPS, surge protector etc. I had a problem with power and it was due to a corroded aluminum wire feeding my panel. When we had a hurricane and lost power I replaced all those wires. Been good ever since.

@bluesriderDF

5 ай бұрын

Thanks you for posting. I definitely prefer steel over plastic. Everything works until it doesn't, right?

@Mike-01234

5 ай бұрын

The best whole house surge protector is the Ditek brand they have a different MOV called a thermal protected MOV. What happens during a surge most surge protectors MOV's sacrifice themselves. Which is what you want, but the problem is if you get a 2nd surge now you have no protection. Ditek because thermal protected MOV can continue to protect they don't self sacrifice. It installs easily into your main panel.

Wow !! Thank you so much for sharing.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Good awareness video to check everything you buy.

Great job and fantastic detail!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thank you, I appreciate it. 👊

Thank you for all this information very useful. I will check my extension cord. Very very careful now. Thank you so much.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome!

Thanks for a couple Great videos on unbonded generators and more!

@bluesriderDF

6 күн бұрын

Wow, thank you!

I had a small power strip that I found had the hot and neutral reversed (I was getting buzzing/noise in my 40" monitor plugged into it). I had used it for decades. I opened it and swapped the wires (and tested it... and all my other strips as well, with a tester like you have).

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Wow, maybe replace that strip with a new one.

Wild that a caboe you've been using without incident just suddenly isn't wired right. Circumstances changed and made a huge difference in this case.

You may have overcomplicated your thoughts enough to lead you down the rose colored road. A floating neutral is actually very simple. You have created two 120V busses that of course have 240 between them. Since the neutral is floating, now the 120V loads on each buss are in SERIES with each other, and depending on the loads on each buss, the voltage to the loads on each buss either rise or fall, depending on the amperage they draw. IE if you have two 100W lamps, one on each buss, in theory, they will operate "fine" But if you have say, a 60W and a 100W, the 100W will draw more current, and case more voltage to appear across the 60W lamp. NOW ON THAT fact, you could easily notice this if you installed a pair of voltmeters across each phase. If the loads are badly unbalanced, or if the neutral develops a problem, the voltages will become more and more unequal. I'm not sure that bonding / unbonding is a good strategy for safety here. THE GROUND AKA green circuits are NEVER intended for carrying current. They are FOR SAFETY in the event of shorts/ faults etc. And, this problem really is not unique to a genset, either. Something like an RV cable could have suffered the same problem with a bad cord/ cap connection.

@philipoakley5498

6 ай бұрын

Don't forget that there are now a lot of RFI/EMC filters in all the consumer goods and they all leak current (typ 1.6mA) from the live to wiring earth (not neutral), so you can build up a leakage bias that makes makes the system take up an unexpected potential difference between the systems. They are never truly 'floating'. The surge protectors are also reference to wiring earth. The ground circuits should be sized to ensure that they are capable of carrying fault currents large enough to trip fuses (old & new). It all gets very confusing because "Earth" can mean many different things and the assumption of ideal wiring (zero ohms, infinite capacity) on circuit diagrams can give a false indication of reality (and local 'practicalities';-).

I had a similar problem with my generator cable. In my case, one of the hots came loose inside the connector. No smoke and fire but the power kept cycling on and off (maybe some safety in my generator not sure) until I powered down and fixed the connector. I have the smaller version of this same generator. Mine came from the factory unbonded with instructions for bonding if it will be attached to a standalone panel.

that APC unit gave its life to try to protect what was plugged it to it. the problem is that all things have there limit. if that was all you lost you were very lucky. i have seen floating neutrals take out everything in a house including refer, washer, dryer, microwaves , TVs and more. the more load differential between L1 and L2 the worse it is.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I haven't found any other damaged items, which i'm super glad for. Very fortunate!!

A great video, thank you for explaining everything.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome, I'm glad it was helpful. Thanks for posting!

I believe that the connections were tight from the factory, but got loose over the 20 years the cable was in service. Screws get loose over time from vibrations, so I believe that all the rough handling that the cable endured (specifically the plugs) from being dropped and dragged around made the screws loosen over time. It's a good reminder (even for myself as I haven't thought about this until now) to check all the cables that have plugs mechanically connected to them (with screws, not soldered on and potted in rubber fom the factory).

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

I will never know if they were tight at the beginning. But i'm never going to use a cable like that again. Soldered and molded from now on.

I'm an electrician retired after over 40 years in the craft. The reason that the voltage went too high on those Surge Protectors is that without an intact neutral the voltage will fluctuate with the amount of loading on each of the generator's energized conductors. The most heavily loaded side will have the reduced voltage and the lightly loaded energized conductor will have the higher voltage. The greater the difference in the loading the greater the difference in the voltage. In your case the load must have been markedly different on the 2 energized conductors and that produced a destructively higher voltage across the lighter loads which must have included those surge protectors. Why that happened is that in most cord sets of under size 2 American Wire Gauge (AWG) all of the conductors are the same size including the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC). Since the Neutral Conductor of the cord had an open connection at one end it was not carrying any current. The EGC (Grounding Conductor) of the cord had been carrying the imbalance current from the Grounded (neutral) busbar of the panel to the frame of the generator. The Main Bonding Jumper of the generator windings had been carrying the unbalanced current of the different loads the rest of the way from the generators frame back to the center point of the generator's windings. Under those circumstances both energized conductors carried their portion of the load current while the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) carried the difference between the current flows on each of the energized conductors. Theoretically that is the wrong pathway for that current to return to the center point of the generator's windings but nobody consulted the electrons about our theory and they don't give a tinker's dam about what we think that they should be doing. Electric current does not take the path of least [resistance + reactance =] impedance. Impedance is the sum of the resistance and reactance to the flow of AC current. AC electric current takes all of the pathways available in inverse proportion to their respective impedances. Once you unbonded the generator winding's electrical mid point from the frame of the generator the difference in the current flowing on the 2 energized conductors had no way back to the source. That shifts the electrical midpoint of the generators voltage away from the heavier loaded portion of the generator's windings and toward the lighter loaded end of the generator's windings. There are devices that are usually used to protect recreational vehicles (RVs) from failures of the RV park's electrical system. One of the things that they do is disconnect the cord from the power source if the neutral conductor develops a high impedance or goes open. Using one of those plugged into the 120/240 volt plug of the Generator will disconnect the cord from the generator if either of those conditions were to develop. Tom Horne

@bluesriderDF

9 күн бұрын

Thanks for the excellent explanation Tom, very thorough.

@joshe9518

8 күн бұрын

I have a question for you Tom. Would you advise against removing the bonding jumper of the generator when tied in to a residential panel that’s bonded itself ?

@bluesriderDF

7 күн бұрын

@joshe9518 If your panel is bonded, that's why you should remove it from the generator, so you don't have more than one N-G bond in your system, per NEC code.

Your description is a little confusing. What happens with a missing neutral is that the only path for current to flow is between the two hots. There is no ‘phasing’ issue going on. Basically what you had was unbalanced phases, ie the load on phase A was different than the load on phase B. All the current is flowing through all the loads on phase A and then flowing through all the loads on phase B. If they aren’t matched, then the 240V from the generator (voltage across the two phases) isn’t evenly split, so the voltage loads have on phase A might be say 180V and the voltage on loads on phase B is 60V Think of hooking two mismatched lightbulbs in series, say a 40W and a 100W and connecting that to 240V. The 40W bulb would see a much higher voltage than 120V and would quickly burn out. That’s why the problem got worse as you started switching more circuits in. Had you switched all circuits at once it’s likely the loads would have been relatively balanced and you wouldn’t have discovered this issue. All that said, throw any of those surge protection bars in the garbage immediately. They are a faulty design in in that situation then starting burning. You NEED protection like that to be self fused, those are absolute junk, and frankly shouldn’t be permitted to be sold.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

My electrical knowledge is limited to basic wiring. I described what happened as best I could, based on what I was told. I don't understand why those surge protectors reacted the way they did. I've been using APC products since the early 90s, they've always been considered a top brand. It's hard to know what to have confidence in for an average person, I think. When I switch over to generator, I flip one circuit on each side of the switch, trying to keep the load equalized. It was very scary, I'm glad it wasn't worse. Thank you for posting!

@inothome

6 ай бұрын

Nothing faulty about the surge arrestors. They were used outside their designed criteria. With a broken neutral you get an imbalance in voltage, exactly as you described. But a surge arrestor can only absorb so much energy and normally with a connected neutral it would have tripped a breaker under a sustained over voltage condition or the surge is momentary. But in this case with no neutral and the current flowing through the arrestor due to a higher than normal voltage AND flowing through a device(s) on the other phase it limited the current to less than the breaker. So the arrestors were clamping and flowing current far longer than they would in a correctly working system. Even with your idea of a fuse, the current may not have been enough to blow whatever fuse you installed, since these were probably feed with a 15A branch circuit to begin with.

Thank you! Great job!

thanks for this video; glad there was no major damage!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome, I appreciate the post!

I remember when, as a heating contractor the first electronic controlled furnaces appeared. I was installing one and upon testing it wouldn't fire and shut off on safety. I fiddled with the thing for over an hour and finally got on the phone and called the manfactures engineering dept. The told me to check the polarity of the black and white wire coming. Come to find out the black was the neutral and the white was the hot leg (+). I wired them backwards and let the customer know in case of any future issues. Polarity has become quite critical. The grounding when using a genset is more than confusing to the average user and has been the cause of many a mishap.

@dwightsmith5174

6 ай бұрын

Found that to be CRITICAL when using twinning control on two 120 volt furnaces running in combined mode.

Thanks for the story. Glad you figured it out, and glad no one was hurt. I'm sure it was a real head-scratcher. Now... to finish the explanation. When the neutral was bonded to ground on the generator (as well as at the service panel), the ground wire provided a return path for the current despite the disconnected neutral wire. So everything worked, although not as designed. When you unbonded the neutral on the generator, the ground wire could no longer provide a return path to the generator's neutral. I don't pretend to know exactly what fried your surge protectors but obviously it created an overvoltage situation. However, I think it would have been more appropriate and more helpful to title this video "Faulty Generator Cord Started a Fire!"

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thank you for the explanation. That is what I've been told as well. I know it will be nerve racking using the generator the next time I need it until I calm down.

@jaygosch8705

5 ай бұрын

Surge protectors are made to clamp voltage at a low enough level that your electronics aren't damaged by a very brief spike in voltage. But sustained over voltage causes the MOVs to get extremely hot. Plastic surge protector casings can melt or burn. Although the sustained over voltage situation is rare, I decided many years ago to get surge protectors with metal casings. I had seen an over voltage situation at work that melted a hole through the bottom of one of our surge protectors and burned the carpet it was laying on. Fortunately it was only the carpet directly under the hole and the rest of the carpet did not catch fire.

You do your research - thanks for sharing

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome, and thanks for posting!

Thanks for posting this.

The generator survived the experience? The people who say hire an electrician for everything must be rich. I do dyi because I'm not rich and when I've hired electricians for major projects they haven't impressed me. Thanks for the info.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

The generator survived and appears to be unfazed. Its main breaker tripped about five seconds into the event. I've always been a DIY'er with pretty much everything - houses, cars, motorcycles. If I had to pay someone every time you needed something done I couldn't afford half of the things I own. Nobody's perfect...not even certified professionals.

Thank you so much!

Thank you

similar problem happened with me because of a loose neutral on a generator plug years ago.

Wow. Nice find.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Checking that cable was the last thing on my mind!

Having seen many pictures of surge protector strips that melted down, some resulting in a fire, I have decided that I will only buy surge protectors that are in a metal case! A good one is fairly expensive but a lot cheaper than the deductible on the insurance policy. Plastic outlet strips that do Not contain surge suppression don't worry me as long as I don't load them heavily.

you cut the neutral connection on a split phase system. happens to regular residential grid services too.

Are you driving a rod into the ground next to your gen to ground the gen to like most manuals say to do ?

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

The manual does not say to do that. It mentions it may be needed. My transfer switch keeps the neutral intact (most do), so a fault would be handled by the ground bond at the load center. This guy goes into it really well: kzread.info/dash/bejne/nYx71ZWKfKnFo8o.html

Yes, actually that's how surge protectors work. They short out the line when voltage goes to high. If the breaker does not shut off, it will just burn itself up. A surge protector is just a device that has high resistance up until a certain voltage and then it drops resistance rapidly acting like a crowbar circuit (it shorts out supply). It's a little $0.10 device called a varister that sort of looks like a fat ceramic capacitor with two legs and its just soldered onto the hot and neutral and in some strips another is soldered between hot and ground. The reason why is burned up is because it was unable to trip the breaker.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Nice explanation 👍

@tomschmidt381

6 ай бұрын

That is true but surge protectors also need over current protection to prevent what happened to OP.

@tripplefives1402

6 ай бұрын

@@tomschmidt381 Surge protectors dont always have current protection. Most don't. The switch on top is just a plain rocker switch with a little backlight. If it has a circuit breaker it will be a little black pop out style on the side like what some appliances have. The average surge strip you buy at walmart has zero protection besides the ability to short out when overvoltage occurs. So if you have a surge, the strip shorts out to clamp the voltage and will continue to do so until the circuit breaker in your house trips. If that does not happen, then the strip just self destructs.

5:57 If I am not mistaken, your transfer switch is the first “panel” that the electricity flows through, whether running on power from the electric company or from the generator. When that is the case, your “main” breaker panel is a subpanel, and it must be wired as a subpanel is supposed to be wired by code. The big thing that must be done in a subpanel is ALL ground wires and ALL neutral wires have to be isolated from each other - they cannot share the same buss inside the panel. Seems that in your panel grounds and neutrals aren’t isolated from each other.

@coreybabcock2023

6 ай бұрын

Mskes Sense

@michaelburke1023

6 ай бұрын

The load center which is energized from the PC is always the main panel. A sub panel can feed the main panel (or a portion of it) while distributing the isolated neutral and isolated grounds back to the Main panel bus bars along with the hot wires to circuit breakers. Just because the sub panel is back feeding power to the main panel does not mean the sub panel is now the main panel….

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Each circuit on the transfer switch has 2 wires going into the main panel, a red and black. The red connects to the breaker you want to power. The black that was on the breaker is connected to the black from the t-switch. So power comes into main, goes to T-switch, then comes back into panel and out to the circuit in the house. There is a neutral and ground from the T-switch L14 plug that is connected to the neutral and ground bars, respectively, in the panel. These are a straight pass through from the generator. The transfer switch was made by Gen/Tran, which is now called Reliance Controls, based in California. They were owned by Generac for a time, and they still make my switch, under the name Pro/Tran. It is UL listed.

@bayouslots3143

6 ай бұрын

I believe you are correct, if I remember you should only have your neutral and ground bonded at the first point of disconnect, that would be your transfer switch auto or manual. ALL other panels should be wired like a sub panel. I just had to separate my main panel and add a larger ground buss.

@stevebabiak6997

6 ай бұрын

@@bayouslots3143 - I know I’m correct, as you yourself discovered the ground and neutrals are to be separated in a subpanel. What’s unclear in this particular picture is why there are people who think the breaker panel hasn’t become a subpanel …

Had this same type problem with my grandmas house but it was power company fault, used copper connections on aluminum wire coming off pole and when it failed (20+ years later) it burned up several electronic devices. Power company blamed us for issue until they checked the pole and suddenly found the issue, probably would have charged us if I didn’t watch everything they did and saw the damaged connections.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

It's never their fault until you catch them.

Learn two things from this: 1 - Do a trail run before the power goes out. 2 - When you do the test, open all breakers. Make sure you get the proper voltage in the panel (or transfer switch) from both phase to phase and both phases to neutral.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Well, I guess this was a trial run. It literally happened in about 5 seconds. My understanding from what others have posted here is that both legs would be 120 until you start adding load. Unless the load is exactly the same (not likely), things will go south real fast.

Nice one and that was definitely it. But surprised the MOVs in the surge arrestors clamped at such relatively low voltages. But maybe being old they didn't fully clamp, hence the heat build up and didn't trip a breaker sooner. Got lucky there for sure!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Wifey and I were jumpy for a week after this. I thought the whole place was gonna go up!

@jaygosch8705

6 ай бұрын

We had a similar issue at work. There was a problem with the building transformer that resulted in higher voltage to one of our buildings. We had surge suppressors on our computers, and one of them had a hole burned through the bottom and a burned spot on the carpet. The surge suppressor was only a couple of years old. The MOVs generate a lot of heat if the voltage remains high. They are more intended for short spikes in voltage. Think of it this way - the MOVs in the surge suppressor short the voltage to ground if it exceeds the voltage rating. An extended short to ground will generate a LOT of heat. After I saw what happened at work, I decided to buy only surge suppressors in metal enclosures. More recently, a friend of mine had a problem with high voltage in her house because of a problem at the electric pole. Her surge suppressors saved her equipment, but the MOVs burned up. Hers had metal enclosures, so the damage was limited to the inside of the surge suppressor enclosure.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

​@jaygosch8705 Thank you for this excellent information. I didn't think the surge protectors were faulty, I didn't think they were designed to handle that kind of juice.

@jefffrayer8238

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF Jay has the best explaination so far. The surge suppressors are designed to work properly with ALL wires properly connected and a soild Ground Stake at the panel. The problem was clearly the Neutral on the cord was a faulty connection and all 4 were loose. Probably slipped passed Q.C. 20 years ago and who ever thinks or able to check a cord, especially under load as the Navy did. Seldom happens but clamps come loose, breakers fail, wires break, and not always someones fault.

An ELCI main breaker would have caught this problem! Also, these twist cable plugs are horrible and most people on boats that know anything about them change them for SmartPlug forms. I'm sorry for your trouble!

When you drop the neutral the loads on one phase are put in series with the loads on the other phase. If they aren’t balanced evenly you will get a high voltage on one phase and a lower voltage on the other. Think 240 across 2 different value resistors in series. The higher resistor will have a higher voltage drop than the lower. Same current through both.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Would a whole house surge protector have helped in my situation? I'm thinking probably not.

@v12alpine

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDFprobably not, they need the nuetral to do any work.

@mikemccarthy6939

5 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDFit absolutely would have

So it was the generator cable the whole time nothing to do with floating the neutral on the generator

@bluesriderDF

18 күн бұрын

@@taylorcampbell985 Yes sir.

I've seen cables like that get loose after extended use, especially if the cable retainer is loose allowing the wires to wiggle at the connection. No fires yet.

Thanks

did you ensure you tightened the nut enough on the neutral lug when you removed the bonding jumper on the generator?

@bluesriderDF

8 күн бұрын

Yes. The loose connection in the cable was definitely the problem.

thanks for posting

They’re a bit more expensive but I really love the TrippLite Isobar surge protectors, even if something goes nuclear inside they have a strong aluminum case that will contain any fire that may occur. I’m happy you found your problem and everything turned out ok.

@bluesriderDF

23 күн бұрын

Thanks for the tip!

Is your unbonded generator connected to an Earth Ground (at or near the generator) of its own or does it get its earth ground (grounding rod) from your main panel's tie to the earth ground, grounding rod? Why?

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

My generator gets its ground from my service panel. Another video in the description about ground rods is worth watching.

@benkanobe7500

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF Thank you.

I'm checking my cable for sure! Thanks

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

My life is to serve as a warning example for others 😂

Earthing and diverted neutrals is also becoming an issue here in the UK for 'similar' (though not exactly the same) reasons. There's a lot of discussion about earth disconnects for EV vehicle chargers where (here in UK) there can be lots of other electrical services near the point of charging that end up (especially under latent fault conditions) with different 'local earth' potentials which is cross bonded produce large unexpected currents (the latent fault becomes potentially patent/obvious!). Obviously if there is a local 'fault' causing your outage, you can have a similar unbalanced earth issues. (edit: e.g. have a look at `e5 group`s webinars on diverted neutrals)

The generator is single phase 240v…… the common (neutral) tapped at the midway point allows for 120v to each bussbar in your load center Loosen or lift or borrow the neutral at the wrong place u will get 240v cycling thru 1/2 of your house

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

That's my understanding of exactly what happened. Thanks for your post 👍

Great Video. Thank you

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You are welcome!

OK... Let me break this down for you. If the neutral is switched in your transfer switch, then you must keep the bonding jumper in the generator, because then it is considered a separately derived system. This main bonding jumper bonds the neutral bus to the ground bus and frame. However, if the neutral is not switched in the transfer switch, then you need to remove the jumper from the neutral bus to the grounding bus in the generator. The ground bus should still bonded to the frame, but not the neutral. In a nutshell, the 'main bonding jumper' should only exist in one place, and that is at the point of service. The way to tell if your transfer switch has a switched neutral is by the poles; most residential houses have a single phase two pole 240V service. If your transfer switch is two poles then it likely has a solid unswitched neutral aka (SN kit), but if it is three poles then it is a switched neutral. If you are just not sure what you have, then leave all the bonding jumpers in, it won't meet the code but it is much safer than removing the main bonding jumper when you need it.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks Stormy. The transfer switch just passes the neutral from the generator straight through to my panel, it is not switched. I have removed the bonding jumper from the generator. I have confirmed with a meter that the neutral and ground at the generator are not bonded. When I plug in the 30 amp cable to the transfer switch and generator, the meter shows the bond is back. The thing is, I have read so many horror stories here of what loose neutrals can do that I almost wonder if it would be better to just bond the generator, even though it's not code compliant. In my head, I know that's not the right thing to do, but living through this was not pleasant.

@StormyITO

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF It does not meet code but half the generators I service are bonded and on and an unswitched neutral. I have never seen any of them with an issue because of it.

Great info, thanks!

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

You're welcome, thanks for posting 👊

when I put a plug or body on a cord I tighten them enough that they might strip... nothing like that kind of stuff happening on a 480V 3ph cord

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

1.21 Jiggawatts!

Power bars like the one in the video use a simple device known as an MOV (metal oxide varistor) connected between line and neutral, which does nothing until the voltage spikes above a certain threshold at which point it becomes a dead short. This short then trips the circuit breaker in the power bar. Many of these breakers are not very effective against dead shorts and weld themselves closed. If you are lucky the house breaker will then trip. There is a large selection of surge protectors out there, Choose them carefully, there are a lot of cheap imports around. I personally use computer grade UPC's for all my electronic gear.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Nice explanation, thank you!

So bottom line is unbond the generator when connecting to your house panel as the manufacturer recommends, but make sure you have a good cable....correct?

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Make sure you have good connections all the way through from generator to your main panel. Anywhere there's a connection, there's the potential it could be loose.

@ruben_balea

6 ай бұрын

If you use a single leg (120V only) generator and neutral or live gets loose you will lose all power, maybe the plug or whatever other loose connection starts arcing and catches fire too. With a two leg 240V generator if the neutral gets loose the 240V will be distributed among the different connected devices according to their power consumption, causing those with higher consumption to receive a too low voltage and those with low consumption to receive a voltage that is too high. But the neutral can also arc inside the plug or wherever it's loose and cause a fire.

Number 1 rule in any power system Tight well torqued connections! Unfortunately there is no way to protect that mode of failure short of installing a potential relay, or some sort of avalanche circuit to force a short on over voltage to pop a breaker.

That sucks! I had an electrician wire up my entire generator even though I’m a lineman for the local power company. It’s a separate craft. Atleast you found what the problem was. Just by what you were saying I knew you had an open neutral. You had straight 240 volts going through your appliances. Hence why your surge protectors were smoked. Your wiring in your house is rated to 600 volts. Everything plugged into that could have caught fire except your 240 volt equipment. You were lucky you caught the problem right a way. Before your house started on fire.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

Thanks John. Yes, many prayers of thanks have been going heavenward since this happened. I did not know that about the 600v, thanks for mentioning that.

@trumpdanusan

6 ай бұрын

seperate craft lol lineman job makes me sweat

@johnclyne6350

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF You might want to consider getting an inverter generator if you have any sensitive appliances? Most appliances today have micro-processors built into them. Unless you have an old Kelvinator fridge & a GE fan? Most regular generators are incapable of delivering clean sine wave power. That's another component of electricity that goes unnoticed. It's not just amperes & volts being provided by your local power company. An inverter generator produces DC power. Then converts it to A/C for your house. They are much quieter than your Westinghouse & your neighbors will thank you. They are much more fuel efficient & burn less gas. In my case a lot less gasoline. If you run household appliances on your Westinghouse for a long time say during a prolonged outage? You might end up burning up your refrigerator, dishwasher & stove. If you do a lot of laundry while on generator? You might need a washing machine & dryer too? I know an appliance place I use who makes a tidy profit after every storm. Folks hook up a regular generator to their appliances & after a few days need to replace them. I was at a customer's home replacing their service after Isais a few years ago. His yard was littered with gas jugs all over his yard to keep his well pump on, his sump pump & his fridge & freezer. His generator was already over loaded to add central air. They were obviously exhausted & rung out from the whole ordeal. I didn't tell him I purposely bought in a neighborhood with town supplied water & a dry basement. I had enough capacity to run my 2-1/2 ton central air as well as the rest of the appliances in our house. My wife could conduct regular business in our house without worry. I even hired a local guy to refill our generator on demand. The last thing I need to hear is my wife calling telling me the generator ran out of fuel. She called JD one time. I took care of JD later. For a three day outage we burned 15 gallons of gas. I was more than happy with my generator.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

@@johnclyne6350I'll have to look into those.

@johnclyne6350

6 ай бұрын

You'll need a pretty big inverter generator if you plan on running your whole house on one? Mine is the best money can buy! I have a Honda EU 7000 is. They are very pricey but if you desire the best like I do? There is no substitution. You may not have the resources I have though? Inverter generators are typically very small. They start at 1000 watt & go up to about 7000 watts. Only the 3000 watt inverters & up are available with a 240 plug. Inverters are very efficient with fuel & are very quiet. My neighbors don't know I have a generator. They think it's magic that I never lose power after big storms. Inverters are much heavier & often have an enclosed housing. If you live on a budget there are good inverters available by Other manufacturers.

So why would you un- bound the generator if your panel is bonded your transfer switch is grounded and your running a 4 prong generator twist lock plug that is grounded back to the panel and transfer switch?

@bluesriderDF

9 күн бұрын

@@user-xe6wh2dk8o Because NEC code requires there be only one neutral ground bond. There's lots of videos which explain it better than I can.

@Cpuboye11

7 күн бұрын

I think after all this, I'm going to keep mine bonded. The fact is this, it might carry load between the panel and the generator. Fact is all the wires going to the generator from my panel are 6 gauge because overkill. And all the wires for neutral and ground in the generator are the same. So what's the point.

Do you have a 3 pole or 4 pole transfer switch? That makes a huge difference in how your generator needs to be configured.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

3 pole. It's configured correctly, just had a bad cable.

@thomabb

6 ай бұрын

@@bluesriderDF During your video you seem to confuse 'ground bonded to frame' with 'bonded neutral'. You do know those are not the same? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just looking to clarify. I know you found a problem with your cable. Just because you found a problem doesn't mean you found all the problems.

@bluesriderDF

6 ай бұрын

@@thomabb I appreciate the feedback. The generator originally had the neutral and ground connected together, bonded. I shouldn't have said "grounds the generator to the frame." I did not use the right terms at some points (eg when I said "out of phase").