So intersting! The qiblah orientation debate is confusing because there are so many data to consider, with more than one possible interpretation for many of those data. This series is very helpful in making sense of it all. Thanks.

Do you know what means Atigh? Atigh in Persian means antique, ancient (find online) Jameh means Friday So The Jameh Atigh mosque = The Antique Friday mosque

@mysotiras21

5 ай бұрын

Okay, but how is this relevant to the topic of the video?

@eva4adam451

5 ай бұрын

And?

@roukayajannah5111

5 ай бұрын

@@eva4adam451It’s just a little more information about the mosque, because some people think Atigh it’s the name of a person related to the foundation of the mosque.

It doesn’t matter where the quibla points. The entire Deen is another false narrative. Building your narrative on shifting sand will not last forever. May the Risen Lord bless and protect you, Mel.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

Thank you! I hope one day, I will stand before the Lord and it can be said that I did everything I could to help Muslims see the truth. There is still a huge amount left to do.

@I9s7lam5is-S3tu1pid

5 ай бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins- we all can’t wait to hear the immortal words from the Immortal Ruler of the universe say: “Well done, good and faithful servant! Enter into the joy of the Lord!”

Hi Mel, sorry for digressing a bit from the discussion. I want to ask, are you interested in discussing the Scientifique Arguments of the Koran and its grammatical aspects? Or is there a book or paper that refutes the scientific facts in the Koran from a linguistic approach and the like?

@SearchForTruth369

5 ай бұрын

or deny people like Nadir Ahmed?

@aleksakovacevic3350

5 ай бұрын

@@SearchForTruth369try the book islam what they don’t tell you the honest truth

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

Apostate Prophet did a comprehensive video on that. I can't top it, it is brilliant. Murad appears from time to time to deal with grammar issues. They are outside my focus for now. I'm sure someone will share links to these if you can't find them.

Are these lines great circle lines, rhumb lines, or somethibg else?

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

No idea what that means.

@richardokeefe7410

5 ай бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins Navigation. What's a straight line on one projection is a curve on another and vice versa. Great circles are the shortest paths on a sphere. Rhumb lines *look* straight on a Mercator projection, but aren't shortest paths on a sphere. So this is actually a serious question about what the lines in your diagrams actually mean. A great circle path that connects A and B might continue on to C. A rhumb line route that connects A and B might miss C by a long way.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

As far as I understand it, it is a great circle that is being dealt with. @@richardokeefe7410

@richardokeefe7410

5 ай бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins Thanks.

Now we need to establish the Narbonne end of the equation. Is there a synagog or mosque there that these qiblas converge on? If the accuracy is so precise it must aim at something recognizable target other than a geographical area. I find this qibla debate can be like what happened to Dan Gibson's Petra theses. Why on earth would these "Jews" in the levant focus on an exilarch who is not an actual local leader and we seemingly don't have any record of him being directing history at this point in time. I must though, on top of my head, refer to the connection between Charlemagne and Harun al Rashid and the gifts between these Princes of faraway cultures. That connection there may maybe a sign of something. It has been interpreted that this has to do with the Spanish colonization and is unrelated to local "emissaries" as the exilarch.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

Notice that Harun is Aaron, a Jewish name. In the Chinese sources, the Old Book of Tang, they record him as A-lon, probably it was Aaron, but r's are often heard as l's.

@drrepair

5 ай бұрын

I’m totally on board with the Jewish connection. Islam is a Golem turned against its creator.

@mysotiras21

5 ай бұрын

@@drrepair , nicely put. I have had similar thoughts. Islam may have started out as some odd expression of Judaism. Eventually that golem became strong enough to turn upon its creator.

Persian word for pomegranate is "anar".

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

Yes, saw that.

@Friedrichsen

5 ай бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins But you're probably right that the French is unrelated to Persian

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

It seemed too neat. The Greek source from the 5th century bc closed off the possibility.@@Friedrichsen

@youtubeuser1993

5 ай бұрын

​@IslamicOrigins Baghdad is also a persian word. Bag=God, Dad=given. This is even stated on wikipedia. Why would the Abbassids give the city where so much of Islam was invented a Persian name? Actually, the "calliphates" very Very Very much a continuation of Iranian empires with their customs (even harems), clothing, architecture etc. The whole of the Sunnnah and the Tafsir were written in greater Iran, Harun al-Rashid was born and died in Iran and was half Persian.

Mel. I thought google earth didn’t account for the curvature of the earth and would kick out the measurement?

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

I couldn't tell you about that. All I can say is these qiblas line up whereas they don't towards Mecca.

@karenthompson1337

5 ай бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins please don’t think I meant the measurements would have been off by that much!!!!🥰

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

haha, thats ok.@@karenthompson1337

Shiraz and Syrah are interchangeable. Same thing

@MONKEYDUDE2701

5 ай бұрын

No they are not wtf haha

@villainousssb533

5 ай бұрын

@@MONKEYDUDE2701probably lots of reasons for differences. Maybe I made assumptions. But the wine / grape from Shiraz is interchangeably called Syrah. In France it’s called hermitage.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

Syrah is what the French call Shiraz. That is correct.@@villainousssb533

Pointing to Narbonne. Must be a church. There was also a pope in Narbonne.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

No, that's Avignon. There was a verifiable Jewish leader in Narbonne such that even Pope Stephen II was concerned about it, due to his power and influence in southern France.

In a video, 2 months ago you said Jameh Atigh mosque points to Narbonne … and draw a line to Narbonne. Video --> Busted: a 9th century "mosque" points to the Jewish Nasi in Narbonne! Now 2 months after, you are saying Jameh Atigh mosque points to Bagdad … and draw a line to Bagdad. And you add … compound wall points to Narbonne. Funny … But still you are wrong about what is the Jamah Atigh mosque. You don’t know what you are showing as a mosque. The mosque is about 100 meters x 80 meters. What you are showing is the House of Quran (12 meters x 10 meters) in the middle of the mosque. For sure it’s AJ Deus fault … but you follow him.

@IslamicOrigins

5 ай бұрын

There are two separate walls, one points to Narbonne, another to Baghdad.

You say: same location, 2 qiblas, 2 different walls, the compound wall points to Narbonne and the mosque wall points to Bagdad. First you don’t understand (maybe also AJ Deus) what is the Jameh Atigh mosque and its limits, on the satellite image. What you think is the mosque is not the mosque, it’s a special room where few students learn Quran. This room is in a large courtyard, the open area of the mosque, it’s even written on the image in the parenthesis (NE courtyard to. The closed area of the mosque where the imam stands is at the bottom or south. It’s a big mosque. There is no compound wall, it’s the North wall of the mosque. The satellite image I got from google map is very clear and there is no difference between the walls, they are very straight parallel. Sorry, your image is bogus. AJ Deus doesn’t say in his paper that there is 2 walls one Bagdad, one Narbonne. He only says ‘’Its qibla is straight to Narbonne in France.’’ But he listed the mosque in the 2 Appendix.

@roukayajannah5111

5 ай бұрын

The mosque has 5 parallel walls: North wall --- Narbonne Room wall 2 --- Bagdad Room wall 1 --- ……….? Middle wall --- ………...? Front South wall --- ……….? (the first wall built, the major wall) Can you complete please?

@roukayajannah5111

5 ай бұрын

The room in the middle of the mosque it called Bayt al-Mushaf (House of Qurans, or House of Books). It was first built in 1351 for the storage of Qurans. At that time, Qurans were manuscripts so they need a safe place. Today, this small room is used as a class for students to learn Quran. This room was not there at the beginning of the mosque only about 450 years after the construction. So Qibla Bagdad impossible.

I don't understand why you're wasting your time on this Qibla thing? It's clear that the Qibla was not a big deal to Muslims and they didn't care if it was off by a big margin. Just take the Great Mosque of Kairouan in Tunisia as an example, the mosque is actually pointing to the country of Chad! There's no way they built a big mosque in Tunisia and screwed up that bad. So just stop wasting time on this stuff. if you want to learn more about the early history of Islam just read scholarly articles and books that's what I do. And also you would need to learn a little bit of Arabic to dig even deeper into the Islamic sources because a lot of stuff hasn't been translated yet. Good luck in your research.

@roukayajannah5111

5 ай бұрын

Even the Jew Rabbis say the orientation of synagogues is symbolic and ‘’approximative’’. AJ Deus spy-up work too much on him.

@mysotiras21

5 ай бұрын

I disagree. The qibla directions are a piece of the puzzle as to how Islam developed. Pretty obvious that Mecca had no special significance for the first century or so of this new religion.

@Marcus_Tullius_Cicero

5 ай бұрын

@@mysotiras21 yes, I'm skeptical about the importance of Mecca too. Muslims weren't trying to be accurate when they built the mosques either because they didn't care or because they just lacked the capability to do so. Also when it comes to the direction of prayers most of muslim scholars agreed that the direction doesn't have to be 100% accurate.

@mysotiras21

5 ай бұрын

@@Marcus_Tullius_Cicero, Muslim scholars say this only because they are trying to cover up the fact that many of the early mosque quiblahs don't point in a direction anywhere near Mecca. If a qibla should point due sout to be oriented towards Mecca, but points north or east instead, this is more than a small error. I think it is pretty clear that Mecca had no importance for Islam in its first century.

@Marcus_Tullius_Cicero

5 ай бұрын

@@mysotiras21 look, I also doubt that Mecca had any importance in the early Islamic era. But my doubt is not based on the orientation of mosques and Qiblah's but based on the earliest historical events and also the Quran. Earlier Mosques weren't built to point *exactly* to Mecca or anywhere else hence why I think that what this Irish gentleman is doing is futile and a waste of time. Instead he should be focusing on the history of Islam from both the Islamic tradition and from non-Muslim sources.