Ah, you young guys. I graduated from Electrical Engineering school in 1972. My first electronics professor, who looked like Einstein, taught us tube amplifiers because they are basic and simple, and he predicted that they are not going away. I appreciate that wisdom on both points.

@PoesAcoustics

4 жыл бұрын

Charlie England hey isn’t that what i said! Tube amps are simple and make great teaching tools. An old timer who got me thinking about all this more seriously told me the same thing. He told me to find a used vintage tube amp and go to town. They were all point to point wired. It gives you a much better understanding for things like how to draw traces on a multiplayer circuit board. People who learn this stuff with modern IC’s and bread boards often struggle to design circuits in three dimensions and maintain low noise. Those of us designing or fixing tube amps had no choice. These things were awful, they picked up everything and how you laid out, twisted, etc the wires made a big difference.

@ccengland6

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Matthew. I appreciate the videos you guys put together. You present a balanced, technically sound discussion. Well done!

@JasonTHutchinson

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't study EE in college. But if I did they probably wouldn't have had much to say about tubes by that time, unfortunately.

@JasonTHutchinson

3 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics there are pros and cons to vintage equipment. They are comprised entirely with discrete components, and are designed to be serviceable. The same can't be said about solid state/PCB based amplifiers. I have an early solid state guitar amp, and even that is tough to work on. It still had the original electrolytics in it when I got it, and it sounded terrible. I managed to replace the main filter cap, and that made a huge difference. It definitely was not designed to be serviced though, and it even has a sticker on the back panel which says not to open it because there are no user serviceable parts inside. The speaker, reverb tank, etc. are all directly soldered to the board, and it would take a significant effort to disassemble it enough to do a full restoration.

As an electrical engineer and a bit of an audiophile, I just want to thank audioholics for putting out such great content and especially at this level of detailed discussion! I really appreciate all the work you guys do and the high-value content that you are producing.

Best discussion I’ve heard yet, about tubes vs solid state. Reminds me of the film vs digital debate in cameras. There is a saturation point where one technology maxes out, and the other races out ahead. I like a hi-fi stereo tube chassis with point to point wiring, not even a printed circuit board. For me, that’s a real tube amp! But it’s all psychology. Watching the tubes glow, and the hum. For accuracy, solid state is light years ahead. On the speaker end, have you ever heard an ADS 701 or a 1290? This is the Holy Grail of speakers. If you find a pair that have not be opened, worked on, then you have found a diamond…

@richardbixler

2 ай бұрын

I agree, that solid state amplification and digital photography is better now. But I wouldn’t say these technologies “raced out ahead”. I’d say they were “pushed out ahead” for convenience and cost savings. It took well over a decade for both these technologies to actually catch up in quality.

You know what I found out over 30 years being into audio from 10 years old on up? When it came to the Amplification? As long as they built the damn thing right, its was good. But I still prefer seeing TUbes glow, and knowing that with tubes, its almost never the same experience. And I like seeing all the stuff right there working. When it comes to sound? Worry a WHOLE lot more about your speakers and your room and if the AMP can push them with EASE.

@tonyconnolly5385

3 жыл бұрын

Great point.

@edgaraskorsakas5703

3 жыл бұрын

Amen man. Tubes just looks nice, not nice, but gorgeous. Transistor amp can look nice too, but they are rarely on display. As engineer I also say any good circuit will work great as long as circuit is well designed. But speakers. . . they can easily have like 3-5% distortion or even more and that makes amp distortion. . ., well low, even if that is 1%.

Got it! So my amps are seasonal..tubes for the Mi winters, solid state AB for the spring and fall (in the room with 100amp service), and finally class D all summer long. Seriously, fortunate enough to have all 3 types and appreciate them all for different reasons. I think the best reason is when listening they bring a smile to my face and for some knowing what I paid can even bring a grin! Thanks for the education.

@captainfallsalotatppic2508

Жыл бұрын

That is what this hobby is all about or any hobby is that as long as it brings a smile on the hobbyist face is all that matters. It isn't about how many tens of thousands of dollars one spent on that 500 LB turntable or $100k amp or one paid $40 for their whole complete system. There are tons of snake oil out there and unrealistic peole with their heads shoved up eachothers ass for believing a system is not a systme unless you shoveld out $100k like I did for mu system. Those people are snobs and take the fun out of this hobby if one let's them! Saying crap like, oh you must have these types of wires that are $1000 and this $50k amp and these $200k set of passive speakers. If those idiots would stop the bullshit nonsense and talk about components on lower cost of equipment then that would be a total different story, but those snobbs will continue talking out of their ass and are NOT true to the hobby!

Hello from Montreal, this video gives us everything needed when talking and comparing amplification. Much appreciated and thank you.

One of the most cogent discussions of audio amplifier technologies I've heard. Thank you for this well stated unbiased overview.

@scratchacat

3 жыл бұрын

that was the most biased review i have ever had to listen to while soldering! what a load of bollocks, if you will excuse my french!

I'm just tuning in, but I love that the thumbnail shows a McIntosh MC 2505. I still have my dad's 2505 that he bought in 1969, which I'll never part with, although it needs some work. Coincidentally, the MC 2505 was McIntosh's first separate solid-state amp, as well as the first McIntosh amp with output meters, autoformers, and a glass front panel.

Thanks very much for this. I'm an old guy, and an electrical engineer (BSEE-Purdue) who learned vacuum tube circuits, parameters, and math first, then solid state devices later. Matt brings an understanding of the mathematics behind amplification issues that mere ears cannot figure out. He also brings ears that seem trained to detect things that the math can explain -- and even quantify. Gene apparently brings balls big enough to broach this topic amongst an audience so filled with prejudices and hand me down metatech that is rife in music reproduction. Much of the prejudice against solid state, and therefore Class D (type) amplification is just leftover from the poor performance of early design circuits. AND, the 'devout' grasping onto that prejudice by hating on the newest designs. The concept of religious heresy comes to mind. I have lived through a period of vacuum tube design, when that was all we had, and done the same things to solve problems that solid state designs have been working through. Those who cling to vacuum tube devices as a sort of faith system are overlooking a huge host of terrible aspects, like high voltage (which kills passive components quickly), microphonics (for which there is no complete cure), heat (which exponentially reduces both active and passive component life), aging (which means the gain and biasing parameters change over time (sometimes abruptly), noise (thermal and Gaussian), and power conversion efficiency (downwards of 50% in some vacuum tube topologies). And Matt's overview of distortion (especially even versus odd order harmonics) deserves respect. That is where the amplifier meets the ear, and very little is linear or understandable by mere arithmetic. And don't get us on the subject of iron-core transformers. I agree with Matt's and Gene's conclusions. Tubes are dying and deservedly so. They may not be dead, but we can sure hear the organ playing for them. Solid state Class A/B has achieved high quality results, but digital is where we *continue* to improve beyond A/B. Maybe McIntosh and such could put dummy tubes with little orange LEDs under them (to go with the blue 1960s VU meters) for the audio fashionistas? Only the hot air will be missing. I keep looking forward to these sessions. I gotta check out that Patreon stuff....

@sonofacheron

4 жыл бұрын

The problems associated with tubes that you describe are all true. And these shortcomings disqualify them to many. My choice for a daily driver amp, for the reasons you describe above, is SS. But tube amps do have a euphonic quality that is alluded to in the video. Have you heard the VAC tube amplifiers that Gene described? I have and the sound was peerless. Your dismissive and disdainful rejection of the widely held perception that tubes impart a sweetness and a richness (2nd order harmonics, softer clipping, etc) is telling. It is the same absolutist view you hear from the EV crowd who feel internal combustion engines are outmoded and inferior relics. But just because SS or electric vehicles measure better than their respective predecessors does not , per se, make them better products -- at least if you believe that hobbies are about enjoyment and thrills. In the case of tube amps we can measure the equipment but we know comparitively little about the intricacies of the brain that processes aural signals. Plus , vacuum tubes, unlike their SS counterparts, are unaffected by EMP from nuclear attack. ;-)

@PoesAcoustics

4 жыл бұрын

Jim Shaw I’m going to have to start paying you for all these nice comments. Thank you very much for the well said response and kind support. P.s. I graduated from Purdue with a degree in Human Development and Statistics. I also took the first set of acoustical physics courses at Purdue. They have an amazing engineering school!

@PoesAcoustics

4 жыл бұрын

sonofacheron I honestly thought we said that. I tried. I noted that they have a euphoric sound by describing the sweetness. It was just hinted, I actually said tubes are thought to sound sweeter and warmer. It’s all true. I also said I’ve owned many tube amps in my life and still only use tube guitar amps. I don’t have tube amps in my main system but it’s not because I dislike them. It’s much more practical. I can’t deal with the heat. My main point is that if your goal is accuracy, you can’t deny that the best SS is superior to all tube amps with regard to accuracy. It just isn’t possible to make a tube amp that can equal what SS can do today. That’s a very different point from choosing an amp based on what sounds good or is enjoyable. Lots of enjoyable things aren’t right.

@sonofacheron

4 жыл бұрын

Matthew Poes thanks for your reply - you did say all those things! Not emphatically but by inference. I respect your fair treatment. My reply was directed at the poster above whose contempt for tube amplification borders on pathological. You guys at Audioholics are doing great work - keep blazing.

@jimshaw899

4 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics That helps explain why I think your smart. ;) So now you don't have to pay me. We are brothers in 2nd order differentials and transforms -- and why the logarithms make *sense* [sorry for that].

Love tubes, love tube rolling. Had two solid state amps before. They were fine sounding too.

@hushpuppykl

4 жыл бұрын

dennem ... tube rolling is a bad addiction! 😂

@audiofun999

4 жыл бұрын

hushpuppykl it’s not that bad, cheaper than rolling amps anyway :)

@hushpuppykl

4 жыл бұрын

dennem ... I’m gonna remember this retort. It’s great for the SS guys 😂🤣

@erics9754

3 жыл бұрын

I wish i could like solid state i have heard 20 thousand dollar a pair ones once but they did not draw me into the music . Everything was clear lots of detail and great separation and sound stage excellent as well they just seemed a tad clinical like measuring devices. I then went back to my joule Electra 160 OTL monos with soundlab A1PX electrostats and classic sound design 300 B borealis pre amp with tube rectification and could not stop listening those pieces give me something steely state can not a emotional responsive to my music. I also believe some peoples hearing in not as sensitive or trained to recognize this. SS seems to be better for loud rock but in every other area tubes can not be beat and the reason Solid state was produced because it offered more profit in mass production and people like not having to replace tubes not because it sounds better. As a kid in the 70s i always wondered why my dads old junky stereo which is what i thought sounded better than my new one. That is when i discovered tubes thank god . I have freinds who comment why do you use those old fashioned tubes or is that amp from the 50s and then i play them something and their jaws hit the ground. In retrospect i am glad only discerning people love tubes and i hope the secret does not get out into the masses.

@beslemeto

2 жыл бұрын

What about Op Amp rolling?I've come to the conclusion that is the same as tube rolling.They change tonality of the sound...

Well, how about that! Your first tube amp was a Dynaco Stereo 70, and that's the first electronics kit that I built, back when I was about 8 years old (early 60's). My father put together a Dynaco system, and I showed so much interest in watching his assembly of the preamp, that he invited me to put the amp kit together. That equipment stayed in service a good 25 years, until the ST-70 was abruptly terminated by a chunk of 2x4 falling on it (for some reason, the protective cover had been left off). That experience makes me wince every time I see a new tube design with the tubes completely open and exposed; why don't they provide covers? Then in junior high, I serviced a tube amp for a friend who wanted to start a school "radio station" (actually just a PA system). I studied electrical engineering in the late 70's to early 80's, and the only class I knew of which covered tube circuits, was a graduate-level course in transmitter design. During one quarter, that class was held in the same room immediately before one of my classes, so if I arrived early I could hear some interesting discussions. I have to agree with your presentation. Tube amps produce much more distortion, but in spite of that, many people find the sound pleasing - although I can't say I'm one of them. I prefer the detail that SS amps can deliver through speakers with excellent high-end designs. An even larger subject, is how amplifiers perform, musically, with various complex loads. I really wish someone would come up with standardized reactive loads for amplifier testing, as I've heard some shocking demonstrations of differences in amplifier sound when driving real speakers, and I don't believe the public is generally aware of this. Edit: Ah yes, Class D plate amplifier reliability woes. I look after the sound systems at a couple of rinks, one of which has a pair of Behringer powered subs. I stopped counting the number of repairs that I performed on those amps, after the first half dozen. In fact, one of them is with me now, awaiting another repair. The main issue with them, is that although the design is sound, the parts buyers at the (Chinese) factory don't appreciate which components are critical, and just buy the cheapest parts they can find. Example: Rising ESR in the bootstrap cap for the top-side FET gate-drive supply can be disastrous, but they don't appreciate the need for a long-life part in that location.

Excellent job guys! This is perhaps the best technical summary of this topic I've seen in years. The key is that the speaker load dominates the system. Speaker distortion and dynamic interaction with the amplifier is the key. NOT amplifier linearity. I always wondered why no one in the audiophile market/industry never offered amp and speaker testing for system matching. Gene? This is long but not a rant. Iv'e been doing this awhile so hang on. As an audiophile I attempt to listen for these interactions. As an MSEE, I am still trying to find anyone who ever really tried to measure them for system design. As you have shown even high end SS amps often don't measure up to even the poor measurement standards in the audio industry. So the short of it? You got it Matt! tube amps have higher low freq harmonics and the 2nd and 4th versus the 5th, 7th and higher harmonics often dominate than SS amps. They also soft clip and the distortion can be controlled via neg feedback. This creates relatively good harmonic intermodulation performance relative to what harmonics are perceived pleasant or tolerable. Remember broadband SS amps fold back intermod to lower freqs. Combined with the dominance of the reactive speaker load, the distortion products are lower in freq and number and may produce more tolerable resulting overall system distortion than many SS amp designs today. As far as SS and Class D. It may be here but they sure polished a turd for a long time. Again, poor perf under load and cheap filtering killed it in the past. A heat sink is lighter but takes up more volume per watt to operate at full load then a properly sized power xfrmr used in class A/B amps at 70% eff. Its all about power out, heat dissipated and volume to do it in. Compromise the volume and the components run out of thermal range under load and you have component lifetime compromised. Still with me? It's worth it. I believe that distributed per speaker driver amplification is the future of all audio markets! No transformers no matching networks and all digital EQ. Imagine 100+ channel surround transmitted to ea CH via RF link? As a hobbyist for the most part, for the cost I don't see why we aren't seeing more of this. Matt, as a guitarist, tube amp tech and hobbyist, I encourage you to check out "The Guitologist" channel on KZread. Some cool old amp mods for guitar use.Tone stack circuits are enlightening. Keep em glowing.

Just thought I’d throw this out there. Years ago I’d went to one of my favorite ear bleeder bands. The opening act was using modern tech amplification. It sounded really good. But when the headline act came on with their old school tube amps it was a huge difference. The music seemed alive. So much more dimension and texture. I still can’t believe the difference. Personally I’d prefer it wasn’t so. Having to replace tubes and such.

@natetete1379

Жыл бұрын

Digital vs analog. Until you can make a proper sine wave in a computer were screwed. That's why almost everyone says they sound alive compared to solid state.

@daniellyons-kl3ru

Жыл бұрын

@@natetete1379 in guitar amps, overdriven transistors create squared off waves.. these are obnoxiously unnatural sounding and harsh. This is why the tubes sound better. Solid state guitar amps that aren't modelling ones are analog too. Digital Vs analog warmth is most likely due to timing and latency between different channels in the mix and then the plugins used etc... The latency adds up.. this also isn't natural. Analog is real time.

@daniellyons-kl3ru

Жыл бұрын

That texture and crunch of valve amps comes from the harmonics they introduce... Then when you overdrive them the waveform gently rounds off and saturates in a pleasent to the ear way. Not like having a fucking chainsaw revving 2 feet behind you LOL

Best discussion of tube/solid state I've seen on the internet. Excellent!

Man this topic is so cool, I’m glad I came back and revisited it.

Great stuff Gene and Matt. You guys nailed everything I could remembering learning about this. Gene makes a great point that not even the best electrical engineering schools teach anything on tubes. I graduated in 2001 and had to learn about tubes on my own. On a side note, I loved if Matt showed more of his theater. Ehat is your screen ratio and the speakers behind the screen? I'd really like to know if you think Panamorph anamorphic dcr lens are worth using with true 4k projectors like the jvc nx9 for 2.4.1 screen since most movies are 2 39.1 ratio and you get more resolution and brightness that's lost with 16.9 screen? Better use a anamorphic mode for 16.9 on 2.4.1 screen or 16.9 screen for 16.9 n live with black bars for movies?

fantastic video. I've just discovered this channel and I'm delighted. I have a late 80's JVC modular system: Ax1 Super A integrated amp, 1X-II Tuner and a KD-A33 casette deck with modern MIssion bookshelf speakers. As a guitar player I had a lot of tube amps and now with the new tech, modeling amps and all, controversy is served, so I'm always thinking about these matters and just today, just now, I discovered you. and so, Im very happy. thanks a million for this excellent didactic lesson.

@didipi3892

3 жыл бұрын

Ax1 superA are one of the Best SS amp I owned gigant killer

This is awesome! Matt is dropping so much knowledge! Thanks guys!

@dougg1075

4 жыл бұрын

Joe N Tell there’s an interview with Bascom King the guy who designed the PS Audio BHK amp and in it he said for realism nothing beats tubes. Fascinating interview. Check it out

@dougg1075

4 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/q4ijyKOTf5aqm6w.html

That was an excellent, very straight coverage of this topic. Really well explained relationship between distortion and load, and relative negative impact of even ordered vs odd ordered, and what distortion profile can be expected in modern day SS Class a/b vs good implementations of class D.

Thank you for this video, it really helped me choose the correct audio equipment.

High level conversation. I haven't seen such in a long time since I started my research here at University of São Paulo

One of the best explanations I have heard about amplification period! Also if you are a hobbyist you gotta have both tubes and solid state! In this new age of HiFi there are so many choices...and I'm having fun mixing the traditional with the new...thanks for the input. Cheers!

@dougg1075

4 жыл бұрын

Hedley Jones hell yes! Everybody in this hobby should have both, just added a tube to the bedroom and it’s a blast to chill to.

I bought the C298 because it has the M23's Eigentakt and the M66's power supply: 1) it's less $ 2) it has more features like adjustable knob gain, RCA loopout for 2 subwoofers, trigger output to my 2 subwoofers I want the clarity. I add richness via my Cardas Parsec RCA interconnect cables. I upgraded from a Parasound 2125v2 (already sounds really good). Apple Music

Very informative, thanks!

Did you talk about hybrids, sounds like best of both worlds.

Tubes are great in intimate spaces, I have a ten watt SET stereo integrated amp in the bedroom. At lower ( sometimes a little loud) volumes they sound fantastic. It’s a vintage amp so it looks cool also.

@summerforever6736

Жыл бұрын

Like in a bathroom

I am so glad that this subject has been discussed openly and between a pair of well-informed people. My preference has always been a Solid State Power Amplifier behind or driven by a Tube-based pre-amp. I have had 5 S.S. Power amps in my home and 3 Tube Pre-amps. My induction to HiFi was with Solid State receivers, 4 in fact, but now I like what I have now. Without name dropping these products are inexpensive and one component is diy.

@oluhamilton2121

8 ай бұрын

That's exactly what l am working with. Carver SS with tube pre-amp stage

You are describing my life with owning both tube or transistor amps to a tee. I will always enjoy the sound of tube better since I am not looking for precision in amplification but something that lends itself to being more emotive/nostalgic. However, reliability of the equipment was an issue for me. After tiring of the expense and hassle of maintaining them, I went onto pair SS amps that sound a lot like tube.

@adcraziness1501

Жыл бұрын

That is a benefit that we are starting to see. Technology is always improving, while tube tech peaked. Eventually, solid state got really good. I'm looking at a iFi iPhono 3 Black Label. Really amazing transistor technology, in my opinion.

Yep , my Class D subwoofer (300 watt) failed after a few months of use at low output level , but my Hypex amps are fine

A recent visit to my chums hi-fi store in Nimes, France and great news. They’ve had their best year in business ever! Lockdown meant many clients decided to upgrade. They sold quite a lot of Macintosh and especially the entry level model at around 5K. That’s a lot of money. Many clients were fulfilling their dreams. I was very fortunate to make a comparison between the entry level version and the Cambridge audio integrated CX-8. Both amplifiers sounded fantastic into J M Reynaud Euterpe Jubile towers speakers. Both systems sounded amazing. What amplifier would I want to be sat in front of with friends? It begins with M.

Been in the hobby 45 years, owned tube amps as well as integrated solid state and each have there merits,today I employ a Vincent SV 237 MK which marries the best qualities of both. Class A to ten watts with tube preamp and a total of 250 watts per channel and the icing is an incorporated reference DAC Best sounding amp ever to power my Legacy Audio speakers

@hobo1452

4 жыл бұрын

As a 237MK owner, I agree 100%. Married to a pair of Klipsch Cornwall lll's, it is as close to musical nirvana as I ever hoped to get.

@joachimplanchon9093

2 жыл бұрын

Vinsent sp20 for me... agree with you! always stay in class A never need more than 10 watts...

@joachimplanchon9093

2 жыл бұрын

Vincent sp 20 sorry...Vincent 😅

Great vid guys. Can you make a specific one on Class D amplifiers? Particularly from the point of view of what's included in today's sub, are those good, bad? Do they put the last Hypex tech in those? Here is the point: I want to add subs to my audio system, they will be powered because they basically all are, but I don't want low-end to to perform poorly compared to my main speakers/amp.

@PoesAcoustics

4 жыл бұрын

Maxime we could. I could also take a stab at this. No the amps in subs are not the equal of Hypex nCore. But then, they doesn’t mean it will compromise bass. The thing is, what makes the Ncore or Pascal amps so great is largely unimportant for bass. When you consider the human hearing threshold by frequency you see we are VERY insensitive in the bass. So if the amp is noisy, you won’t hear it. Noisy in this case doesn’t mean hum. It’s more like hiss, but a hiss you won’t hear be because it’s bandwidth limited to below 100hz. These maps have higher distortion, but a lot of their highest distortion is actually above 1khz. They aren’t used there. The high gain in the feedback circuits allows distortion to be maintained out past 10khz. It’s a waste on subs. Even if the amp has high distortion in the below 100hz range, it mostly wont matter. You won’t hear it. So I wouldn’t worry about it. If you really worry about these things then get better subs I suppose. JTR and Seaton both use Speaker power. They have lower distortion than many. You could always DIY a sub using an nCore module or get a Pascal based plate amp. I think it will be wasted. But silly things keep me up at night too.

Back in the 60s Tube amps were the best. Today both can sound very similar.

The folks at PS Audio use tube front ends for their BHKs with MOSFETs for the back end. I think that is a good option if you want that tube sound and have predictable load handing. You can get lowest cost solutions from Schiit Audio and others

I had a few old school 1960's small tube stereo amps and only one sounded amazing. So it could be certain tube amps can sound better and also with solid state amps. I reckon that particular tube amp sounded way "better" than any transistor amp I had. More spacial, amazing smooth treble while still being serious. I could turn the treble right up and it was crazy too much treble but wasn't annoying in any way and sound wrong but still amazingly pleasant. And the treble did seem to go right up there (seriously high frequency) but never sounded "tinny". Tube MAGIC! Even on neutral the treble stung like crazy and sounded so good! It was like 5 per ch and the brand was "Star".

@harryconover289

2 жыл бұрын

As old tue equipment they need service before and listening a big difference in tube amps is the output transformer you state absolutely tubes have higher distortion not at all true the conmen amp topology does but it’s gain element and can e used in new designs I have one that is a bridge type , not common at all !

The sound you get verse's the sound you are looking for depends on more then just the amplifiers. I've had large speakers that didn't sound like I expected in the room they were in, amplifiers that were okay for home theater but didn't cut it for music and receivers and preamplifiers some better then others, none that were bad but didn't hit the sweet spot between my ears. I don't think I would go so far as to get involved with tubes and the expense personally but I have found a combo I like. The Sunfire TG111 or Emotiva MMC 1 (Both Bob Carver Designs and affordable) along with the Carver AV806x or Marantz MA500U (same internal 130 watt Amp boards) and Definitive BP2 (Vifa) speakers with a Sub. I've been happy with this combo. I do have Emotiva Amplifiers on another setup for movies with a Marantz 7702 Atmos preamp that works for me in a Home Theater but I like the other one in it's own room for music.

I have listened to Jadis (neutral), Audio Research (neutral), Nagra (neutral), etc, Krell (neutral), Spectral Audio (neutral), Cello (neutral), etc. The warm tube amps are generally very simple and generally have dubious transformers in the signal path. Optimize that to the point of studio equipment of the 1950s and all problems are gone. In a way, a solid state component like a transistor is a network of components that has many problems associated. Then we have the problem with electronics engineers that do not understand the challenge of human hearing, and approximate problems and design, to sine waves for easy mathematics. If you play back music from a symphony orchestra, then you have to exchange sine wave and frequency range for bandwidth. My guess about tubes is that, in a top design without the feedback problems, tubes have more bandwidth than solid state when we limit to the audible range. If the transformer can be taken out, or its problems managed, this is really very good. With solid state, you really need a much higher frequency range to get a wave shape reproduction that has no (frequency dependent or not, feedback related or not) phase shifts of parts of the musical spectrum. The point is humans have way more bandwidth in their hearing band than simple sine waves. We do not have a single membrane microphone, but about 20,000 nanophones tuned to 1 Hz or so precision. Each registers sound pressure and the patterns across these, arrival times for left/right, coloration between left/right including wave shape are analyzed. This is how you recognize/distinguish mom from dad and cow from lion. Or transversal flute playing A (piano, 440 Hz) next to clarinet playing A (piano, 440 Hz). Now scale this up to recognizing the sound of your child in the noise of the jungle or decomposing all the sounds of a symphony orchestra. That flute produces a nice sine wave and the clarinet a block wave. Distort the block wave and the clarinet is not recognized anymore. Before we can distinguish mom from dad, we need to train our brain. A lot. The same applies to music. The quality of high end amplifiers is in their ability to reproduce wave shape accurately. Their designers know this and understand how to deal with this. Each of them solves this in a different way. Some have based their name on it (Accuphase). Imagine a cello playing a 440Hz note (piano central A). That gives a sine wave with two tiny ripple peaks on top of the otherwise clean wave. Shift these and you start to wonder if you listen to a cello. The simplest approach to precise waveshape reproduction may be to increase bandwidth by a lot (which becomes apparent in the frequency range going much farther than the human upper limit). The speakers add another problem when they are more than single channel, in crossover filters that can introduce new phase shifts (which can also happen in cables - how do you get the 60 Amperes from your power amplifier to the speakers?) Harmonic, intermodulation or other distortions are all irrelevant if they cannot deal with this here. The problem with digital is you have samples that need to present the brain with pressure changes at the proper frequencies to give our brains the illusion of the original analog waves (whatever their shape and complexity). It needs to fool us very well. And does not attempt to reach perfect wave shapes. I have, listen to, solid state and digital. About guitar amps, go to Anderton's channel on YT. They have -ty blind guitar, amp, speaker, pedal recognition tests.

@gdwlaw5549

3 жыл бұрын

Sop what’s the best system for you?

@alexstevensen4292

2 жыл бұрын

Nice thinking but you need to look up the sampling theorem. Digital is capable of reproducing to 20khz with perfect accuracy. 20khz comes out like a square block wave, the filter takes out the higher harmonics and it becomes a clean sine wave. Even the AM like modulation thing that's there, where the signal varies over time because the sampling freq is close to the signal, so at certain times it samples the nulls instead of the tops, get's taken care off by the filter. The only weakness is there is this sharp cutoff filter around 20khz which can be seem as unnatural. The early CD players had weak analog filters so alot of HF crud got to the amp and that's precisely the area where it has a very bad performance (at least SS amps do lol) and some of that stuff gets modulated down into the audible area so you get these kind of sharpish metallic highs. Then came these digital filters which work at a higher freq because they have to fill in the steps. Then a much simpler analog filter can take care of the rest they can start at 20khz and only have to really start filtering at 44khz so that's much easier than a filter that has to start at 20khz and be fully operating at 22khz. And not just 22khz but also everything after that otherwise a simple notch filter would do it but now you need to put all those 'poles' there. (some of these numbers should be much higher 4 times oversampling was already at the beginning) The DSP works by multiplying the signal with a sample or 'convoluting' it. It multipies every sample of the filter-Sample with an equally sized range of samples from the incoming signal. Then they are all added up and the result is one output sample. And the input is shifted one position for the next round. It's a bit like having a tube and through that tube travel soundwaves. Over a certain length there is a row of tiny holes and when you add up the signal coming from these holes you can get all kind of filtering effects. The filter Sample gives a 'weight' or a multiplication factor to each hole. one interesting thing is that the filter-Sample is basically a Sample of a filter. If you send a '1' or a short pulse though an analog filter and sample the result you now have a digital copy of that filter. The length is something like 256 or 1024 samples. the length determines how low in frequency it can have an effect. any wave that's longer simply passes through the filter. Or it doesn't.. when the filter is like +1, -1, +1.. then no low signal gets through. But it doesn't have any variations anymore. so 5, 10, 100hz, they all get the same treatment. The meaning of the word 'sample' might be a source of confusion here there are two versions, one single sample and a whole bunch of them that's also a sample. I capitalised big Sample so..

@alexstevensen4292

2 жыл бұрын

All I want to say (I guess) is that that notion that sampling is 'faking it' and not 'the real thing' is incorrect. I got that stuff at school a long time ago and trust me they have worked it out pretty well. CD is perfectly capable of reproducing everything below 20Khz. Now there are some possible caveats. Say you have a 20khz sine wave, and modulate that with 2khz. The result is a varying 20khz. In the freq spectrum it looks like a 20khz peak, with 2 sidepeaks, one at 18Khz and one at 22. now when you run that through the CD system the 22khz peak get's deleted. You might say that's a weakness. But I don't think there's a real problem there when it would be modulated at say 50hz that would still come through. and 20khz modulated with 2khz sounds more like a hazy fuss or something (I guess) it's not like it's really varying anymore. So there's not much of a loss there either. The whole high frequency area is a bit vague it's more like the average amount of energy over a certain amount of time that counts. And I would suggest CD does it way more accurate than necessary.

Is it good to run Class A/B for the LCR speakers, and Class D for surrounds and heights? I generally prefer A/B because I know they'll be there in 20 years. I've replaced multiple D amps in subwoofers after short lifespans.

Would like to see a discussion on different topologies with respect to design. I refer to the AGI 511a and Spectral Audio which have both wide bandwidth and very high slew rates and short settling times. This would be fascinating as some people do not realize that their equipment has a certain topology which may limit it’s frequency response and ability to reproduce transient material in music. Give that a thought please and let me know! Thanks guys, good video! You really need to include George Merrill in on this discussion! Keith Johnson is the designer of Spectral Audio’s components. He is the genius behind their brand. Sutherland Audio is another brand you may take a look at. These are the brands that are on the cutting edge of audio today. Topology matters and so does the choice of components in the design. You don’t get the high quality of reproduction with halfway anything! Quality costs!

Really informative, learned so much from this thank you! Late to the game here, but what about GaN amp topologies? Still typically class D? Some positive reviews on many of those. Just got one along those lines myself and LOVE the way it sounds.

if you want tube sound in these modern days,use a tube preamp and a good desing solid state amp best of both worlds.

Use a tube in the winter at night and save on heating costs. Use solid state in the summer. They are both good. For soul music use tubes. For hip hop a solid state provides the best performance. By the way electrostatic speakers are almost distortion free. I love the Martin Logan quest and request and the sequel II models.

@volodumurkalunyak4651

3 жыл бұрын

No you do not save anything on a heating cost over class D + electric heater

@mcplutt

2 жыл бұрын

@@volodumurkalunyak4651 You save in the summer.

@danmarjenka6361

10 ай бұрын

@@volodumurkalunyak4651 The electric bill will be the same, but in winter, the tube listener is getting their music for free.

I use a pair PS Audio BHK 300 mono blocks in my system. They use a hybrid of tubes and solid state. They're pricey but you get the best of both worlds.

@MichelLinschoten

4 жыл бұрын

Don Maughon if you say so 😂

@travis1240

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I'll stick to amps that cost less than my car.

Tubes with a Kaleidescape paired with Wilson Audio speakers and subs is absolutely amazing !

Thanks guy I loved the talk.

Thanks for the great discussion. It is a very common practice to place a passive crossover between the power amp and the speaker. Even if the tube amp has a low impedance output rating (high damping factor = a low impedance output. Typical tube amp is 8 to 10 ohms compared to less than 1 ohm for SS. The crossover completely washes out the amplifier's ability to control the speakers movement and loses control of the driver's excursions and you get overshoot. A SS amp is like a servo motor driver and very hard coupled because of the very low output impedance. The coil stops moving and turns around when the signal tells it to. Overshoot is a significant distortion contributor and especially obvious at higher driving levels of low frequency signals. My systems do not have any passive crossovers in the end of the chain. All drivers are directly coupled to the SS class D amplifiers. I think it sounds great and everyone who has come to hear the system, and universally the first words out of their mouth, right after their eyebrows go up, is "It's so clear"! Except for one super diehard tube guy who brought some poor quality recordings along. I always suggest "Bring your own music" so it familiar and hopefully it will sound better than you have ever heard it. Although all my front end is linear. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Opinions are like arm pits, everybody s has a couple. Class D is the best thing ever to happen to audio next to the CD. Low purchase cost, low operating cost, almost no heat, excellent output coupling, extremely low noise floor typically -90 or better, small physical size and low weight to power ratio, and great sound. What more could you want? As for digital vs vinyl: Digital doesn't degrade with repeated plays where vinyl is degraded right from the first playing. You wouldn't believe the amount of grove damage visible under a good microscope after just one play of a record. I have played some of my digital recordings over 3000 times and the last playing was just a good as the first. What do you think a record will sound like after 3000+ plays?

Holy smokes that was a fantastic review of amplifier types. This is going to educate a lot of people and you did a great job.

Great discussion, I enjoyed it very much, although there was nothing really new here it was nice to hear it all laid out so concisely in one program. There is one factor that continues to puzzle me in the tube vs. Solid-state debate that I have not heard addressed in a technical manner before. This refers to the idea that many people have expressed that tube amps are more dynamic or louder sounding then solid state amps of considerably more power output. The aspect that I've noticed when listening to some tube amplifiers is that they do seem to have more dynamic life that is heard in the transient attack of certain instruments such as the pluck of a guitar string or the crack of a snare drum I would not discount that this is some form of distortion but I have read never really heard it technically explained why this may be, anyone have any ideas.

@joemarz2264

4 жыл бұрын

Well here's your technical explanation: Tubes produce way more 2nd harmonics. 2nd harmonic distorts the musical waveform asymmetrically towards either the + or - polarity (remember Fourier series?). This extra asymmetry causes an apparent increase in "attack" or "transient speed", especially in dynamic sounds such as plucked guitar strings (that's precisely why tube amps are so popular for guitar amps!). The point being, IT IS FAKE i.e., not faithful in any way to the original recording. It's just a sound effect because, yes, all tube amps are in essence an expensive SOUND EFFECTS GENERATOR!!!

Great presentation, appropriate depth -for me- take-away: It’s not the device (tube or transistor) but the topology. Of course, in the next sentence, one has to explain how the device requires or does not allow one topology or the other; tube topology doesn’t use feedback because it is using transformers (or not) to match output impedance to the speaker’s load; transistor amps use feedback in order to keep distortion in check. Found out what a graphical display of a tube amp’s ‘soft’ 43:30 clipping looked like in comparison to the the ‘knee’ I’ve seen in so many graphs of solid state output. Although I’ve always tinkered, and I’ve had some technical training in electronics generally, you guys are really helping fit together some pieces of knowledge that have been bopping around in my head after reading endless forum pages full of foreign terms without much understanding or context. Thant you very much.

I got off track talking about bass amps, but another commentator brought up the fact that many audiophile manufacturers believe tubes are obsolete in the output stage but superior in the preamp stage. My class D bass amp has two separate input channels, with identical EQ. One is integrated circuit, or so I believe, the other 12ax7 tube. If I adjust the trim on each input to max level just below signal breakup, both sound different but too a subtle degree. If I overload the set trims, the tube will be much more forgiving with regards to distortion. Just my observation.

Hi Mathew and Gene Thank you for an enlightening discussion . Learnt a lot . Please shed some light on using a tube preamplifier and solid state amplifier for 2 channel stereo . Does that combination mitigate the shortcomings of both technologies?

@georgeclueless6092

3 жыл бұрын

That’s what PS Audio are now doing

I have a pair of class A amplified Mackie HR824 monitors, which I'd like to use as a stereo (and maybe pair with a vinyl turntable). What tube amp would you recommend? Probably just need a preamp, since the power stage of the Mackies is probably good enough right?

Used to have 2 Shanling class A 50w mono-blocks ( tubes ) and never had anything better in the house . For the moment SS , but I will go back to Tubes but this time as pre-amp and the Power amp as SS.

It’s just apples and oranges. I got both and I like them. I have a great solid state that sounds almost the same as my higher end tube system. Some solid state amps can give you a sweet holographic sound stage.

I've owned a VAC PA 80 80/KT88 Golden Dragon tube amp and a ARC LS 15 tube pre amp since 1995 and I find the sound magical! I've owned various speakers over the years and the VAC, with it's 8,4&2 ohm taps had no problem driving my speakers. Recently I have purchased the Maggie's 0.7's and knowing they perform better with lots of power, I also own the Spectron Magical MK lll class D amp The beast weights 52lbs! Output is 500watts@8ohm, 650@4ohms &1,200@1ohm Wow does this amp make my 0.7's sing, I love the inner detail with amazing energy! It also helps that the Spectron amp was designed by John Ulrick

22:33 - the load also changes with *frequency*. Say you have a speaker with an impedance dip in the midrange; attached to a tube-amp, it will sound 'warmer' as opposed to that same speaker attached to a solid state amp where there would be no dip in the midrange. A tube output stage is a current source; you could short the output with no damage. One would *not* run a tube amp with no load connected. It'll create voltage rise that causes arcing and melt the insulation of the output transformer

I build a lot of ic integrated amplifiers and they sound fine but one day I build a small SE tube amp and it sounded different it sounded alive!

I miss the ritual of vinyl. Getting together with friends when our favorite band put out a new record and listening to the whole thing with pizza and beer. But give me digital playback 10 out of 10 times. I am a recording engineer and we still do use 2" tape in our studio. Tape compression sounds great.

@gdwlaw5549

3 жыл бұрын

I just purchased the complete NEW ORDER catalogue in Vinyl. It was a heavy bag. Is it great music? Probably not but represents my teenage years. I’d take the bus to Virgin megastore in Portsmouth (UK) back in the 80’s. We’d all meet up and go for a bacon sandwich afterwards in the rain. The friends have gone, they demolished the shopping centre and virgin records has closed. Portsmouth is still a shit-hole. Loved every moment.

@pnojazz

2 жыл бұрын

You’re a kid. You don’t know vinyl. Your loss!

@Wizardofgosz

2 жыл бұрын

@@pnojazz who were you replying to?

My dream combo that I would nearly kill to have is Luxman's CL-1000 preamp with a pair Sim Audio MOON'S massive M888 monoblocks. Driving ANYTHING from Westlake Audio! Oh my GOD! Awesome!

FINALLY A GOOD DISCUSSION THX

21:09 when playing around with tube amps, one of the things that shocked him was . . . Oh, a realization about the circuit design. I was primed for a story about sparks.

modern tubes might need replacing but i still have gear from the seventies that is still going strong

@realworldaudio

3 жыл бұрын

Indeed, properly designed and built tube amplifiers are steady as a rock and easily serviceable. When the tube wears out, you can change the tubes. When a transistor burns out, that's trouble, as transistor production runs are very limited. After 10-30 years even the manufacturers limited stash runs dry in most cases. We have that issue with basically all solid state devices, beyond 30 years they are mostly landfill when a transistor fails. I personally carried about 200 solid state amps (5-30 years old) to landfill, while every single tube amp I care for (some 70 years or older) is still happy and playing.

I use a tube preamp and solid state monoblocks. It’s a very good combination

@hushpuppykl

4 жыл бұрын

Greg Bartz ... best of both worlds. 👍👍

@VioletGiraffe

3 жыл бұрын

Good for what? Injecting that tube distortion into the signal and then cleanly amplifying it to high power?

@1wired4sound

3 жыл бұрын

@@VioletGiraffe good for sound quality. I’m not the only one using this type of setup. If you don’t like tube equipment that’s fine, I and many others do. Even with all that distortion

High power BJT amplifiers for me. I like big dynamics with lots of headroom.

Wow u two crushed it! TY

Advanced Electronics Training in the Navy in the early 90's still taught tube theory and use in an amplifier circuit, as there were still some equipment in the fleet that used them. HF radio transmitter for one. And it was not reliable. I love the aesthetic of a tube amplifier (the classic look of the tubes and their soft glow) but I'll never be bothered to use one in home audio, as I am more than happy with my Onkyo M504 bipolar transistor amp.

THANK YOU X 1000!!!!

i had the pleasure of listening to peavey deca class d amp it sounded really nice

They make now 1 nano volt / hertz noise operational amplifiers which if used properly in the class A amplifier will have a near zero distortion too.

When I discovered tubes I was hooked. The sound is more warm, intimate and smooth. It's superior to me. I get stuck listening to tubes for hours and I don't even notice it. For solid states I only like them when they run warm either in pure class a or with a high class a bias.

granted, I am new to audiophilia :) but the tube amps I have heard really surprised me. They gave the music an almost bell like, rounded, 'liquidy' character that was stunning. Reminded me of the liquid metal terminator in that it just melted in all the right ways. That even order harmonic aspect is what I was told was the cause. It made it more aurally pleasing. If that's distortion I will gladly take more!

@erics9754

3 жыл бұрын

Agree i can only take about a half a hour of steely state.

@LordAus123

3 жыл бұрын

It’s pretty straightforward - spectrum analyzer of the original signal vs spectrum analyzer of the signal after amplification. The differences are the coloring of the amp. No need to use impossible to understand and quantify words like “liquid” and “bell-like”. It doesn’t help the audiophile community that is already saturated with snake oil and uninformed opinions to describe things in terms that can’t be confirmed or denied.

@macfly4

3 жыл бұрын

@@LordAus123 no need to comment on someone’s SUBJECTIVE experience. Go to the art museum and describe all the artwork in terms of spectral analysis 🙄 Lighten up, Francis.

@LordAus123

3 жыл бұрын

@@macfly4 oh I have no horse in the race of trying to dissuade you from tube amps. I’m just saying that instead of describing things in a way that can’t be clearly understood by others, you could describe what you’re actually hearing, and then say that sounds however you want to describe it. Many companies and persons looking to swindle people have used impossible to actually define terms to convince people that either they hear a difference when there is none, or that objectively worse sound quality is superior because it is “unique”, “warm”, “smooth” etc. Please, do enjoy your hobby however you deem fit. Just, it doesn’t do anyone favors to mystify quantifiable things that are already understood, and electronics are not magic.

@dr.jamieadamspleasantph.d.1609

2 жыл бұрын

@@LordAus123 lol, but true!

What about the quality of the OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS? CAL

Although I hear by many guitar traditionalists that tubes sound better than solid state amps, I have only owned solid state amps. I only play at home for my own gratification, and I am not prepared to pay the higher initial prices, ongoing costs of having to replace tubes in the future, and an additional investment in many expensive pedals. Solid state have improved to the point where I am happy with their sound and flexibility, together with a lower cost of operation and initial investment. If I were a professional gigging musician I might feel differently.

FWIW. In the late 80’s yours truly was part of a technical study by a noted Boston Educational Institution and an Audio Club ( I withhold the official names to keep the controversy down ) that launched a project to quantify why people preferred the sound of tubes vs Solid State and the reasons why. We had master tapes available to us and used what was at the time one of the best, if not the best, Solid State Amp/Preamp. Speakers were meaningful but not the most important. Using DSP ( Digital Sound Processing ) ahead of the Preamp you program the DSP such that you think you are listening to a tube amp. And that to a room filled with Golden Ears. Including recording engineers who had created the Master Tapes. The findings were very much the same as what this video talks about. We could “dial in” the DSP to sound like different tube amps. All that was shared with several manufactures who built the mathematical algorithms into the products offered in the 90’s. IMO there is plenty of processing power in even the simplest of DAC’s today to accomplish the same end. I think with today's DSP chip sets you can probably dial in the sound of different output tubes. EL34, KT88 & 6550. And even dial in what they would sound like after a 1000 hours of usage.

@wilcalint

4 жыл бұрын

Oh, you could probably do this using a Raspberry Pi

@arvidlystnur4827

4 жыл бұрын

Bill Kenney, Tube aficionados will poo poo your test, not necessarily I. Has anyone done blind A-B, or A-B-C test comparing tube, SS, and simulated tube sound?

@wilcalint

4 жыл бұрын

@@arvidlystnur4827 If my memory serves me right the testing we did in I think 89 it was so easy to detect the SS sound from the Tube sound that complex A-B or ABX testing was not necessary. In fact we removed the two speaker stereo set-up and reduced down to just a single speaker and that was not what could be considered a "HiEnd" speaker. It was a bookshelf sized device on a stand and away from the boundaries of the room. There were about 20-people in the room with card table chairs. It was a pretty good sized meeting room with no room treatments. Hint hint it was in a MA DMV facility steps away from the MIT Campus. They let us use that room once a month I think on a Saturday evening.

Hello guys. I have a McIntosh 2205 that I bought in 1978. I've spent more in repairs that it originally cost. Still I think it sounds fantastic with my Klipsch K-Horns, also bought in '78. After watching some of your videos I get the impression that Class D amps are the future. Would you trade a McIntosh 2205 bought in '78 for a modern Class D amp? And, does that question make any sense? :) Many thanks in advance.

For anyone questioning the ability of vacuum tubes to sound as good as or better than transistors. First, remember that vacuum tube equipment was used to develop the very first transistor. Be thankful for vacuum tubes, be very thankful. Never talk bad about them, because that is like telling dad you wish he was never born. In my experience, solid state amps can measure better and have stoic slam in the bass, but vacuum tube amps have been the most pleasingly detailed listening experience. I have a 15WPC EL84 homebrew amp in my main system. Sounds very good. There is a reason every recording studio has at least some vacuum tube equipment, and most every stage in rock has a tube amp on it. Transistors are more physically robust, but tubes are far more electrically robust. For example, triode tubes from the 1930's running free (no negative feedback) can directly compete (and win) with any free running transistor as far as distortion goes. And what distortions are there are of a more musically pleasing (to humans) even order structure than odd order prevalent transistors. Example.... Here are three links. One is a serious studio microphone preamp using a 76 tube. The second is a link to a harmonic structure shaping preamp for demonstrating even and odd order harmonics. The third is Apollo 11. The best Saturn V launch vid I have ever seen or heard... www.preservationsound.com/2011/11/the-old-76/ www.pmillett.com/etf_sod.htm kzread.info/dash/bejne/e6uilq6PhtmnhbQ.html

great topic guys....what are your thoughts on behringer amps ..and crown amps........looking at one of these to power my hometheater......they are in my budget....thanks

@JasonDominus

4 жыл бұрын

Several reviewed at Audio Science Review. Pro power amps aren't the cleanest because they value big power for the lower heat they produce because of the form factor(rack mount).

@kirkcunningham6146

4 жыл бұрын

@@JasonDominus wrong....i have three pro audio Yamaha P-Series amps (P3500S) class AB and they were one of the best pro amps in their class and in the industry. Extremely low distortion, look them up... they've been replaced now with a class D topology series. In fact, Pro Audio is going in that direction now unfortunately.

Even though specs suggest solid state, that warm tube distortion just sounds so sweet. But on reliability solid state rules the day i.m.o. wrote this before I watched

If I remember correctly PS Audio had to go through the research on the Mosfet/Tube on their high end Mono's. They use a combined for the product for sound despite a preference for digital.

@mennims

Жыл бұрын

PiSsoff Audio

Tube vs Solid-State: Tubes do have several advantages (BTW, My amps are all SS). First of all, tube amps are generally MUCH simpler than SS. The audio path through the amp is very basic. One of the axioms of good engineering is that the shorter the signal path, the less harm is visited on that signal. Most SS designs are incredibly complex with lots of stages through which the signal must pass on its way to the speakers. From that standpoint, many tube amps sound more musical than a SS design. Even though tubes have a higher noise floor, and generally have more distortion than an SS design, but people don’t HEAR that noise and distortion as such as long as the tube amps are working properly. One of the most compelling case for tube amps is their serviceability. If you have a pair of 1958 McIntosh amplifiers, for instance, and you need to repair them, it can easily be done. All the tubes are still available, all the caps and resistors are readily available, and the only parts that would be problematical (perhaps) are the transformers and they rarely go bad. OTOH, Try to find replacement transistors for the original Acoustat SS power amp from the mid-sixties. Good luck. Also the SS amp generally has lots of electrolytic capacitors, all of which, at some point will need replacing. Most of the caps in a tube amp are non-electrolytic, small signal types, and there are far fewer of them. In rebuilding a tube amp, the power supply electrolytics are generally small (20- 60 MicroFarad) and relatively cheap when compared to the much more expensive, huge (thousands of microFarads) electrolytics in a SS amp’s power supply. Basically, if buying an amp for the long haul, a tube amp is a better long-term buy. Also, don’t forget, that old tube amps generally hold their value much better than do old SS amps. But you are right that even though modern tube amps can sound very SS-like, transistor amps are usually much more neutral.

Recently, I pulled my HK TA3000x receiver (tube) to have it recapped. The substitute receiver is a HK 3475 (newer, sold state)... Although the 3475 is a pretty good receiver and I’m not knocking it, the TA3000x has a much better sound, tone and warmth... BTW, running it through KLH 24 speakers through a subwoofer.

Did I understand it right that tube rolling has no effect on the sound of a tube amplifier? Its all down to the amplifier's topology? What are your thoughts on hyrbid amps with tube buffer with solid state output stage? Or having separates tube preamp paired with a solid state power amp? Do these hybrid and combo make any difference to the sound?

@JuanLega

4 жыл бұрын

Power tubes DO make a difference in sound. I have experimented with 4 different types of power tubes in my Amp, and they all sound different. But, the preamp tubes make more of a difference in the sound. Different power tubes also will allow you to increase or decrease the amps headroom "as long as the power transformer can handke the extra work"

CD Frequency response: 20-20k @ 44.1khz sampling frequency Vinyl Frequency response: 7-50khz @ ∞ sampling frequency

I like my coffee black. No cream, no sugar. Same is true when I listen to music.

the mac power amp used for compasn is one of tor very few that use a autofomers type copelig never direcly to the amp output

To my ears the best is a hybrid combo, tube pre amp, solid state power amp.

@erics9754

3 жыл бұрын

Never tried that will have to before i croak.

@hotwater8473

3 жыл бұрын

@@erics9754 I had a high end hi-fi shop near my home and spent many hours in there listening to setups. It was a McIntosh tube pre amp and McIntosh solid state amp on some nice Canton speakers. Blew my mind

I am DIY oriented. For many reasons it is easier to design and build a good tube amp than a good solid state one. One reason is that unlike what you guys said at the beginning of the video (thankfully you clarified somewhat later) tubes are inherently more linear than a transistor. The triode is still about the most linear amplification device known to man. Of course this means that simpler circuits can be used. For DIY'ers it is also nice that the parts are larger (especially nice as arthritis sets in). Some folks such as Nelson Pass have been able to create solid state amps with simpler circuits and these have quite a good reputation. One of the big things is that a well design tube amp tends to do less harm. The unavoidable variance from the original is less offensive than is typical with solid state. Note that is not the same things as saying that tubes produce pleasant distortion. It is saying that tubes avoid producing really offensive distortion.

@faustinbaron2146

Жыл бұрын

Well said. Years ago a friend who designed radar systems worked with both tubes and transistors. His words were that electron movement in tubes was predictable than transistors. He went on to say that transistors do a good job with sound, but not music. Way to much discussion about distortion. People need to just learn to listen. My favorite amps are those using 300B and EL84 tubes. Out of curiosity I bought the Benchmark amp and preamp. Worked with them for a year, various speakers, inputs. They always sounded out of phase. Sold them off to someone who loves them. Because I know live horns, trumpet, SAX. Listening to those recorded instruments a trumpet and SAX sound like the real thing. Through solid state they can just be identified as a horn. On voice, there is a body with the voice. Listening to Jazz At The Pawnshop on a 300B amp I can make out conversations of people in the audience. A lot depends on how you listen. Are you ruled by spec with your listening or are you into enjoying music.

I could not hear a difference. Back around 2000, I was considering upgrading a $1700 Madrigal Proceed AMP-2. I borrowed a $5500 Audio Research hybrid tube / solid state power amp and a $6000 Mark Levinson power amp for a long weekend. My speakers were Martin Logan SL3s, with Linn Sondek L12 record player, and Pink Triangle PIP 2 battery powered pre-amp. I could not hear a difference so didn't bother upgrading. I am now using 4 internal class-D (Ice power edge) mono block power amps (1650 watts) per (active) speaker. I find vinyl can provide deeper sound stage depth than CD. However, the depth depends on the recording.

@AdrianIII

4 жыл бұрын

I wonder if it is a kind of "distortion" that makes vinyl seem to provide a deeper soundstage. Or maybe it is the monaural bass below 100Hz.

@matthewbarrow3727

4 жыл бұрын

@@AdrianIII I think that it is really the recording rather than the medium. I've been listening to some streaming audio where the sound stage sounds really deep. I think it is more likely the reverb unit that they use in the mixing process. A while back, I listened to a KZread video of DearVR's reverb unit on my system (which connects to my laptop via USB). The sound stage was massive, and this was with a compressed KZread video. I think that potential sound stage depends on the speakers and room correction system. The actual sound stage is what's on the recording. With a number of reverb units, you just pick the size of the room, and pan the sound left or right. With DearVR, you also specify the location of the track in 3-d space, along with the size of the room. The system models how sound propagates, and how the frequency changes as a result. ie. It models reality rather than taking guesses at settings and hoping for the best. The vinyl noise that I do hear on records tend to be pushed to the far left and far right of the sound stage as the noise comes from imperfections which aren't synced up between the left and right channels. The sound in between is clean. I have had friends tell me that 40 year records I have sound like they were made recently. When it comes to bass, I have speakers that have directional bass down to 18 Hz (two 12-inch subwoofers per speaker). I can hear very deep bass positioned at specific locations in the sound stage (but have a large spatial volume - so not not pin-point like a triangle might sound). I've listened to the band Morcheeba recently, who have some really deep (synthesizer) bass. I have not found it to be the deep bass that gives the perception of deep sound stage. It is the backing tracks that are positioned further back in the recoding that seem to deal more with the sound stage size. Bass tends to be position towards the front of the sound stage.

@joemarz2264

4 жыл бұрын

@@matthewbarrow3727 wrong. Your perception of added "depth" is nothing more than a compressed dynamic range, which tends to amplify the low level sounds (such as the room reverberation) by as much as 20 dB or more. This gives the sensation of more depth, atmosphere, air, or whatever term you wanna call it. Again, THIS IS FAKE. You are listening to a popular sound effect, known as DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION caused by a limited dynamic range medium such as a vinyl record. But oh people blame the more honest data archiving medium (CD) as having less... "atmospherical" qualities.

@matthewbarrow3727

4 жыл бұрын

@@joemarz2264 Very interesting. That is something that I didn't know about the relationship between dynamic range compression and the perception of depth. The reason I thought that it was the other way round is because the surface noise is reduced. I'm not sure that one can really suggest that FAKE is bad. Pretty much all music is an illusion anyway. Different people like different audiophile equipment sounds, and if the idea that there is only a single TRUTH, every one of them provide something FAKE. As such, it is a matter of what style of FAKEness you prefer. What I have noticed is that people get used to the system that they have. I upgraded a system about 6 months ago. I still have the old components of my system, and rather than putting them away, may end up setting that up as a second system. The old system included Martin Logan SL3 electrostatic hybrids. The new include Legacy Audio Aeris open baffle speakers. Quite different presentations, but the Aeris allows for much greater sound stage depth. It might be useful just to switch between the 2 so that I can appreciate the difference. ie. Keep the sense of newness to the different types of FAKE sounds we get.

@matthewbarrow3727

4 жыл бұрын

@@joemarz2264 I guess the primary reason I thought that there was expansion was because the individual instruments were more distinct, with the quiet between them being quieter than what I could hear with digital. ie. There seemed to be a larger difference between the quiet sounds and the loud sounds with vinyl than with digital. This increased contrast seemed like expansion.

If the purpose of electric amplification is to reproduce live sound at higher volume a tube amp is more effective because it's analog. But it's so much work and the manufacturing complexity is so great. It's just easier to do it with a transistor.

I own a Benchmark LA-4 and AHB2 preamp/amp stack. Literally the lowest distortion, most accurate solid state signal chain in the world right now. I've also got a Line Magnetic LM805ia SET Integrated. They sound more similar than different; very linear. The LM images better and had better bass texture. The Benchmarks are quieter with a slightly blacker background. Purchase cost was within $300 between the two stacks. The differences in imaging, soundstage width/depth, and stratification of sound sources within the soundstage favor the LM amp to a noticeable degree. It's an empirical, if small difference. Amplitude; the two amps are within +0.0/-0.5dB from 10hz to 20khz of eachother.

I had two mono tube amp 35 watts each and they got loud enough on a set of Vintage Klipsch Heresys to make you deaf the distortion was well below human hearing and the room and speaker distortion contributions so what you going do

How about combo? Solid and tubes, like mc901

For me, tubes satisfy my visceral needs!

Hi Gene and Matt. I'm considering the Parasound 2350 to drive my Klipsch RP-8000f's. What is your opinion on that amp by Parasound?

@PoesAcoustics

4 жыл бұрын

Parasound has always made pretty great amp. Gene would have to chime in on measurements.

@christophermcmichael880

4 жыл бұрын

@@PoesAcoustics Hi Mathew. Thanks for the reply. I was considering the Parasound 2350 for the ability to run 2 pairs of speakers. My biggest question is. Would that amplifier be able to drive 2 pairs of RP-8000f's safely using speakers 1 and 2 at the same time?

Solid state amp is my go to , had both and current amp I have is the moon 250 I 2 channel for my vinyl system and I like it how cool it runs and comes with 10 year warranty. It is a A , AB amp and the first 5 watts is in class A after that AB.

Thanks for the very interesting insights. If you guys could cite sources for data/facts that is even better.

So, Matt, Gene, now I'm totally confused. During your discussion about Class D amplifiers that have Pascal or Ncore, are you saying that those will perform equally (or better than) the likes of Plinius (e.g. Hautonga) or Cyrus (e.g. X-200) or similarly-priced models from Pass Labs, Ayre, and Accuphase? I have Revel Ultima Salons that are 86db efficient playing in a 3800 cu. ft. room. I'm running a tube amp currently but I'd like to change that out (to eliminate the heat it produces and maybe save a few $$ on my electric bill). I'd consider Class D but I sure don't want to be giving up anything (continous power, dynamics, etc.) that I get from Class A. Is it possible that all of the marketing hype from the Class A producers has messed up my mind to the extent that I'm now so biased towards Class A that I am finding it hard to conceive that a Class D could work in my situation? There's a meme that I see popping up all the time that perpetuates the sonic superiority of Class A over Class D. The most recent one I noticed comes from Crutchfield's website www.crutchfield.com/S-5jJT1fFE9Pi/learn/which-amplifier-class-is-best.html: "Class A design is the least efficient but has the highest sound fidelity. Class B design is a little more efficient, but full of distortion. Class AB design offers power efficiency and good sound. Class D design has the highest efficiency but isn't quite as high-fidelity."

@joemarz2264

4 жыл бұрын

Yes your are biased towards class-A because those people still spread myths that nothing currently or in the future will ever best class-A designs. They are wrong, technology never stops and class-D is the future.

Doesn't it really come down to what tube amp manufacturer and model we are talking about and conversely the solid-state make/model? I mean, if you listen to a hi-end PrimaLuna I believe they might have a sound that eclipses any negative elements of tubes. Might be wrong, but I am just throwing this out there for your comment. Thanks for the video.

So Gene , how about hooking your turntable with a tube integrated amp ? :)

Great discussion! I have both Class D monoblocks and a stereo Class AB tube amp that I go between for the reasons you guys go over. Different setups for different moods, because in the end it's all about the enjoyment.