Two of my favorite. They both have a gift of authenticity, eloquence, depth of experience and art that is just so great to listen to. Thanks to you both! We need you.

Instant serotonin when the intro music kicks in. Thank you Clifton ❤

PHENOMENAL conversation. Thank you!

Your discussions about the arts and truth is such a wonderful cultural service... as a musician I find it extremely satisfying to hear these discussions. You're doing great work.

@psychoseventyeight

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Ditto. I'm also a musician and am forever frustrated by the lack of attention paid to art more reasonable parts of our society and how willingly the ugliest parts embrace it. Doing so fully knowing that the further they can destroy what is beautiful and the more they can dumb it down and lower expectations the more maliable people become.

K-L-A-V-A-N, there is no E in Klavan. Followed Andrew for years and I think you two are alike in many ways. Could listen to the both of you talk all day. Great show Clifton!

Andrew is such an affable, down-to-earth guy. I really enjoyed your conversation, Clifton. I hope you have him back on your show again. ❤❤📚📚🧠🧠🗽🗽

Andrew Klavan always has interesting things to say. Thanks for having him on.

Two of my favorite people here in the KZread-osphere on one show in a conversation. Such a remarkable, thoughtful show. Thank you, Clifton, and thank you, Klavan.

All I can say is keep up the awesome work, this is one of my favourite podcasts.

I could listen to this all day - you definitely left me wanting more! Also, thank you for being respectful of guests while speaking about their relationship with God. Too many atheists are disparaging and mocking.

Great conversation!

Fantastic! I’m reading The Truth and Beauty right now. Very thought-provoking, just like Andrew himself.

I first heard about you from FNT. So glad I decided to listen to your podcasts. So thought-provoking and insightful, especially with your latest guest the Great Andrew Klavan.

excellent conversation

Cliff I think I've told you before, but I'll say it again, that intro music is perfectly chill 🕺🏼🎶

this is why the iron age of entertainment is so important. Hollywood is dying, there is no time better for the right to start telling stories again

1.5k views. Congratulations! Keep growing that audience!!!

Clifton, you're a legend!

These explorations on the nature of art and beauty are my favourite episodes. As an atheist myself, I've always had a deep appreciation for christian art, specially catholic. One of the most awe inspiring experiences in my life was visiting the Vatican and the Saint Peter's Basilica. Great guest and great podcast, as always!

When old age shall this generation waste, Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st, "Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." -- John Keats At 21 he already had his apothecary license, entitling him to practice as an apothecary, physician and surgeon. He chose to pursue the arts (poetry), but died of tuberculosis within 4 years, at age 25. Scholars still study his works today.

@alanhynd7886

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Possibly the purest poet. Died in a flat overlooking the Piazza di Spagna in Rome. If he couldn't choose the time of his demise he could hardly have chosen a more magnificent setting. The Keats-Shelly flat is still there and open to the public, for anyone that wants to walk in their footsteps,

Dr Drew Pinksy recommended you. Good podcast

Sorry I missed this premiere... was looking forward to it, then got caught up with family stuff. Catch you next time!

Nice way to end the weekend, thanks again. Hope you have a good night!

From 3:18 to 3:19, the piano sounds very similar to Final Fantasy VII's world map theme.

Great interview. Andrew is always fun to listen to.

Great interview. Two of my favorites. Clifton with the "sophisticates" air quotes. Awesome. Clifton, you said the last few years made you less strident on atheism. i wonder what the next 5 years hold for your journey! I know what I have my money on. ;)

@tmangeles7575

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@@CliftonADuncan She's something else, too. I hope we haven't lost her. Her energy--rectitude, telling it like it is, her stories of her upstate NY Italian upbringing with traditional females that were the opposite of shrinking violets but also had a female 'sphere'... I would've loved to have been in her class!

Morality is a product of logic, not faith. We know that some actions are wrong because we can imagine ourselves as a victim of those actions. From there, it doesn't take too much to reach the conclusion that consent is the basis of morality: Violating consent is violating morality.

"Preaching = bad art" Yes! Preaching has become the norm, but it doesn't meet its own goals. Instead of persuading through art, which draws people in who might never have considered the artist or author's viewpoint otherwise, preaching through art retains the converted (those who already share the artist's viewpoint) and repels the rest.

Thanks loved it.

"Do you drink tea or coffee? Of course you do you beautiful bastard." Sir, I say, I may be a beautiful bastard but I do not drink coffee and I only ever drink sweet tea as seldom as I ever drink it. More of a Dr.Pepper man.

Re Marquis de Sade, yes, let us be according to our nature. But a society following this mantra does not lead where you think it does, perhaps. There are many dynamics and forces which spell the present (or past) imperfect states of order, even sans religion, and these states are not logically endangered by people not believing in an objective morality. People do not want to die, nor do they want those they've grown to love to die. This alone sets off certain civilizational forces, and the rest - the negotiations of desires inherent in each human with other humans who also have desires that are leverageable pursuant the former desires - create order and the powers that generate it. Our nature does not only contain badness (selfishness and rage and desires that run contrary to empathy) but it contains the following two important things: Empathy itself (in varied measure across peoples) and desires. These desires are leveraged by other people's desires, and, long story short, out grows civilization. The Marquis, and Nietzsche, were blind to this, perhaps by the echoes of the moral illusion wrought by centuries of moral anxiety.