"if you don't know what this is, it's called a book. This was used in the before times to encode information on slices of dead tree" This totally got me

@AttilaAsztalos

2 жыл бұрын

It's seriously shitty legacy tech. Have you tried doing a search through it...?

@rionanderson1664

2 жыл бұрын

My computer science lecturer used to (and apparently still does) introduce the concept behind a binary search by ripping a phone book in half until he finds someone’s grandma’s number… then called it in front of the lecture theatre!

@johnydl

2 жыл бұрын

It's fine when you've only got to search one book, they create indexes at the back for that... not as good as google but surprisingly effective for the common search terms. It's when you have to search for information in archival book repositories it's a problem. These things called Libraries you see... except rather than pointing you to a single book the search index for Libraries barely points you to the correct shelf and sometimes people fail to put the books back in the right place anyway.

Checking voltages. Not only would you hear Dave Jones ' voice but you'll also hear Louis Rossmann yelling: "did you check PP3V3_G3_HOT" ? :-)

@bobimnottellin362

2 жыл бұрын

PP buss. I never opened a MacBook once, but that's lodged deep in my head.

Having worked in networking for the past 20+ years, as soon as James mentioned that this board was using Ethernet and that there were communication issues, I was suspecting that there was a Realtek chip involved. These are very cheap Ethernet chips often found in low-cost consumer hardware and they always seem to have weird issues if you are doing any type of networking more complicated than simple web browsing, and even then they tend to have weird latency and jitter issues. This is why Intel chipsets are the defacto standard for 1G networking (including 10/100 speeds too). Manufacturers like Realtek Ethernet chips due to their cost, users are better off with anything but Realtek, due to the shortcomings inherent to Realtek chips.

@colingale

2 жыл бұрын

Same for me, in early days it was always a Novell 10-base 10 card that worked and the ne200(0) cards that failed in odd ways, now it's realtek that drives me nuts with linux issues where my intel based units work fine.

@amahashadow

2 жыл бұрын

While I (sysadmin here) agree that the Realtek card are not always stable, and sometimes have weird implementations. The arp broadcast functionality is one of the very base block oh the tcp network stack. I doubt that even them would fail this spectacularly on a simple mask calculation. I’m wondering if the implementation of the Realtek chip on the nuc board itself isn’t at fault. Or some hardware init’ that should have been handled by the bios on boot that wouldn’t happen ? Those Chinese nuc (I used a few for dynamic displays before replacing them with pi’s) sometimes have basic functionality mangled.

@thomasbonse

2 жыл бұрын

@@amahashadow It's more than that with Realtek chips. The don't handle jumbo frames, ARP, 802.1q, udp, promiscuous mode, any offloading (tcp, udp, arp, crc, etc.), multicast, ipv6 anycast, and more.

@gorak9000

2 жыл бұрын

@@amahashadow I would say in this case that the centroid software sends out a packet that LOOKS like an arp packet, and got flagged as such by the offload processor, but in actuality is not an ARP packet at all. Hence when you turn the offloading off, it ends up coming out the cable as the packet that was intended, rather than being groked by the offload mechanism on the card and munged. The cheap cost of realtek chipsets comes at a price, "rack of testing". There's a bug somewhere - the driver, the hardware? Realtek doesn't care as it works in 99% of applications - good enough, ship it!

@bobweiram6321

2 жыл бұрын

It's not just their ethernet, it's also their USB products. They are truly awful!

I also appreciate the explination of 'how things work' in a layman's manner so even I can understand the process. Thanks

You are a naturally talented teacher. Thanks for presenting everything in such clear terms. I would add that the electronic lead screw is one of the best projects I have ever found on the net in thirty years of searching.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@anmafab

2 жыл бұрын

I second this for sure! Really easy to follow your thinking to arrive at the solution

James, great example of troubleshooting technique, particularly as it shows how to approach a situation where you don't know what is wrong and aren't starting with a system that did work and now doesn't (most troubleshooting charts assume that something used to work and now doesn't). Back in the neanderthal times before the interweb (early 1980's), when I was the founding VP of the Hershey Apple Core (still member #2, although a lot of things have changed in the group), I helped Member #1 troubleshoot his newly built Apple ][ clone since I dabbled in electronics (wires inside of evacuated glass envelopes and chunks of germanium inside little metal cans), and had the necessary equipment. We weren't able to use the troubleshooting charts, so resorted to a symbolic diagram of the circuitry (schematic?) and poked around with my oscilloscope. When we lost the clock signal, we found two unsoldered resistors, applied iron & solder and Voilá, everything was right with the world. Many of the details of your adventure were a little too esoteric for me (I was OK up to and including hexadecimal, but then got glassy-eyed). However, the "book" thing really mystified me until I remembered a "motion picture" from the past called "ZARDOZ," where James Bond had discovered an entire building filled with items as you described, falling to dust as you would expect of dead wood. I now realize that these are the things that my parents had a vast collection of, which descended upon me and my siblings and are now stored in unused "guest" rooms. All my best, Charlie

I loved the historical element of the "Book". Great explanation. I'm looking forward to see it work.

This went in a completely different direction than I would have thought. This mix of machining, design, electronics and now even networking stuff is what makes me love your channel. I have never looked in detail to those network driver properties in Windows but this ARP Offload setting being the problem was a good find!

this is probably one of my favorite videos you have made. I think many of your viewers aren't necessarily interested in a particular subject, but more widely in just learning new things. And as this was an area I happen to know a lot about (unlike machining, which is why I am here to learn) I was thrilled to see how you worked through the problem and used the opportunity to introduce folks to some networking concepts including ARP. Really really great. And it looks like you found a bug in that Realtek driver. Thanks so much for this great video. Would love to see more like this... just figuring things out and us along for the ride!!!

@WilliamJasonSherwood

2 жыл бұрын

IMO this is the real point of difference for someone like James, and a 'dedicated' CNC (or whatever the topic you follow is), he can be agile, he can cover this weird networking bug today, then next week cut a swan out of a block of steel.

@knoopx

2 жыл бұрын

totally agree, I'm generally not interested in the main topics he covers (expensive hardware I will never own), his approach and methodologies is what I enjoy.

I am not very knowledgeable about electronics, I just enjoy your explanations man. You rock!

"...record information on slices of dead tree". Absolutely brilliant!! Priceless!!!

I'm a retired Network Engineer and have used WireShark for many years. I was around when all the tools you have been using in this video were not around. WireShark is probably the most valuable tool that I have used. Like all things network, finding the arp offload issue is amazing. Good job. My handle when working was Jedi... Good job Jedi...

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I remember the days when we had to lug around the Compaq portable sniffer. I think it was a Compaq. Looked basically like the Dolch, but with light colored plastic.

@robertfrakes5216

2 жыл бұрын

When Compaq was bought by HP that was a sad day. Having been certified in Compaq and also HP, those older bricks were more trouble than they were worth. Wireshark made it so much easier to troubleshoot weird networking issues. Stay safe...

Very interesting issue. I was starting to wonder if the netmask was wrong since it was trying to ARP the broadcast address, but an implementation bug makes more sense.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

The net mask is set to /24. I did check that.

It was nice to see all the steps in easy to follow order. Keep up the good work!

Thank you for taking the time to explain each element. I find that troubleshooting definitely forces us to understand what is actually happening. As others have already stated this was a great mix of software and hardware interrogation. I appreciated seeing your logic and technique in the piece by piece approach to locating the cause. I ran a CNC shop for 8 years (2000-2008). At that time, I had little interest and no time to understand how the all of the elements come together to make such a machine operate. I'm now in my mid 50's I am discovering a great interest understanding how all the pieces fit together. I find myself obsessed with learning all that I can, and working towards a reason to build something that provides me the sense of accomplishment. I am very interested in learning, understanding and applying how test equipment works. Your logic analyzer seems like an interesting tool. I want to understand that tool and the oscilloscope!

Very cool. Thanks for posting this. Always enjoy (other people's) debug sessions! :-)

Your explanation of what is a very complex problem is simply amazing.

Nice one James… I like how you demonstrated a “binary” cut on the results of your testing and observations. Followed the decision tree down to the last twig.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

Long experience. :)

One man's agony is another person's joy have fun Thanks Frank for the video

Loved all the detail as you chased down the bug. Brings back memories of my former life as a network architect.

Amazing - thanks James for a small glimpse into a world I know virtually nothing about….. yet I had no issue following along. 👍👍😎👍👍

I just randomly found your channel and wow I'm glad I did. Your professional troubleshooting knowledge is top notch. I will have to dive into some of your other videos. All the best with this cnc project going forward.

“This is a book.” LOL! Good one, James. Great job of troubleshooting. 👍🏻👍🏻

That was an excellent step through of a tricky networking issue and a very good explanation of ARP and TCP/IP! I've been doing IT for over 20 years and that was the most clear and concise explanation I've ever seen, well done!

Brilliant problem solving! Quite impressive. I especially enjoyed the serial port R/E -- I've never seen that before.

This is an awsome troubleshooting session. I'd never been able to find a simiar bug myself, but seeing you doing so - my compliments!

As others have noted before, and below, your ability to connect the dots in such an effortlessly understandable manner is SO appreciated. Carry on, sir.

Great video. Its great to have a simple explanation of basic internet protocol. Its great after almost 81 years to learn something new.

Great job troubleshooting the problem. I am sure the most of us would never have found it. Keep on keeping on.

Well I confess most of that went over my head but I did learn something and it was interesting to see you troubleshoot the problem. Thanks for sharing.

As someone who works with computers and networking for a living, this video was AWESOME. Great example of systematic troubleshooting plus we get a weird cause as well. Thanks for the great video and you have my subscription :)

Pretty nice debugging 👍 Reminds me of a piece of network hardware I had once in my hands that repeatedly brought down the complete network. Found out that its broken IP stack replied "yes, this is me" to every ARP request on the network, regardless of the actual IP in the request 😅

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

That's really interesting. I've never had a reason to hate on Realtek until now. Sounds like I'm in good company.

@feeseize9569

2 жыл бұрын

I've seen that behavior from Unitronics PLCs. A lot of industrial "ethernet" is very broken.

@seanclark8452

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, was that setup to force a proprietary switch or point to point hookup only?

@RoterFruchtZwerg

2 жыл бұрын

​@@seanclark8452 No. It was an industrial RFID reader controller which could be used in any setup. But, to be fair, I think it was pre-production firmware. The issue got fixed after I reported it.

@seanclark8452

2 жыл бұрын

@@RoterFruchtZwerg Oh, that makes sense then. I'll hard code things like that in code under development to make testing a specific section easier. It wouldn't be hard to forget to remove a test mod, especially if there were a bunch and you just missed one.

My degree is in computer science. I do applications-level programming for my job, but my interest has always been systems; kernels and drivers, hardware/software interface, embedded systems, parallel, distributed, real-time computing, etc. I love seeing stuff like this

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

There seems to be more interest than I expected. Or rather...KZread has shown this video to more interested people than I expected. :)

@klaernie

2 жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 seems like everyone enjoys seeing a big being found

Little glitches like that can be so frustrating. Good that you were able to figure out the issue.

Excellent video James! It has given me the confidence to jump down the debugging rabbit hole if I need to. 👍🏻

Troubleshooting involves a pretty universal set of tools and approaches to start with the broad picture and continuously narrow down the investigation until all that is left is the troublemaker. You are a good troubleshooter! Thanks for sharing! :)

Very interesting stuff. I used wire shark one time just to find an IP address of a device I was working on and had no clue what I was looking at. Your explanation from that paper book thing really helped me understand more of what wireshark can do. Thank you.

Very nicely done with a 'surprise ending' as frosting on the cake! Although I have a four channel scope with decode functions, adequate for most data com issues, your utilization/ demonstration of the Saleae analyzer is going to cost me some money! Keep up the great work!

That was some great and interesting troubleshooting. Definitely shows to be systematic and don't assume anything.

Thought it was going to be a simple issue like a cable but as always you have impressed with going the extra distance to sort and show us too 🙂. Currently building a control box too, my first one and already learning a bit 🙂

Well, that was a trip. When I saw the logic analyzer come out, I didn't expect this outcome...

Wow! What a sneaky little bug. Great demonstration of the fault finding process. I can't say I've ever seen that particular fault before, although I'm always suspicious of any power saving features on devices that misbehave, and disable any obviously relevant configuration settings. Bitter experience has taught me that there's usually something that doesn't quite go right upon resume, and sometimes on initialisation too. ARP Offload wouldn't necessarily be one of them at first sight, but now we know. Thanks for taking us on the journey of discovery James.

James, I think you are a genius at troubleshooting. It doesn't matter if it is a CNC machine, a circuit board, a Cadillac car or a fire truck, you can always figure out what is wrong and how to fix it. I guess that is what you do for a living but you are great at it.

@gorak9000

2 жыл бұрын

Wait, cadillac car or fire truck? Are there some videos on this channel somewhere I've never seen??

So many levels of wonderful. What an excellent troubleshooting exercise

I don't know why you don't have a million subs. That was a thorough and detailed account of how to troubleshoot. I use Wireshark from time to time and I was happy to see you use it. Also... this booook you spoke of, I have "a few", they are amazing. There's no boot time. They can't take the site down. Its cool tech. :)

I understood 2% of the words said in this video but watched it in its entirety. Nice content, James

Wow, pretty obscure! Great debugging, *really* appreciate these debug videos!

I’ve done my fair share of network analysis. I would not have caught that! Thanks this was great!

i didn't fastforwarded any second of this video .. really good job 🙏

Enjoyed the info. Retiring soon and will be starting my cnc router build. I'll watching...

Great troubleshooting!! Checks all the boxes!!

Good teaching !!! My first time understands TCP IP

Not sure this video is juicy for the algorithm, but your viewer base certainly appreciates it. As always, learned something new from it.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm a little shocked at the caliber of comments and questions I'm getting. I was totally expecting to hear "Less talk, moar chips!"

My knowledge of (And usual interest in) electronics could be written in large type on a very small piece of paper. That being said, sir, you are the only one I know who actually makes me think I understand what is happening. All others make me think they are speaking in Vulcan or something. Thank you!

This is the kind of thing that sets my hair on fire. Good on you for having the perseverance to slug through this.

@kensherwin4544

2 жыл бұрын

Just where do you think HIS hair went? He just didn't film that part.

A very accomplished beautiful logical troubleshoot.

Super video, James. Thanks for publishing this.👍🏻

Excellent video; many thanks for sharing! I'm just starting my second Acorn build, and this is just the sort of thing that would have caught me out if I'd been adding the 1616 board (not needed on the current machine, but may be required on the next build).

You are a teacher. I’ve always been a mechanical guy at heart with family and friends in comp science I’ve always loved the idea of comp sci but never had a place to start so I ordered that book and that will be my place to start, back in the beginning of something. I’ve always cheated my way through programming buy forums copy and paste and calling friends. and I love building cncs. I need to know this stuff!!

It's amazing how much I enjoyed a video that was mostly in Greek... but troubleshooting is, to a point, troubleshooting and I do understand that language.

Very (to me) impressive troubleshooting👍👍👍

Well done! Never give up until reach the solution!

I enjoyed the troubleshooting video. Thanks.

Great info James laymans terms for how things work. I have a BCS and ended up liking machining better, gotta love it. :)

Absolutely fascinating! Your "Mini-Snars" are always so easy to follow! BTW, you can use that descriptor if you like!😁

18:90 LOL brilliant! Also, Dave Jones has been waiting a decade for a proper diagnostic video opportunity. He needs to get out of his comfort zone and try fabricobling some cnc stuff. So many opportunities! Well done, sir.

Very interesting troubleshooting!

Brilliant episode the best yet I work on complex networks in industry and the transport world and would not have seen this issue as the equipment we deploy is generally high end stuff the NICs in the cheaper end are just that cheap I’m working on my own design and build CNC mill and will buy a 2nd hand quality PC over a new cheap one for the reasons you found here, keep up the great work.

I always learn something in your videos, but it is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you will learn.

Your network debugging skills are pretty good. "it's called a book. This was used in the before times ... " -- luvit!! And yeah, 'stupid stuff' like that can cost enormous amounts of time, which is why for many -- just get the one which some other engineers already qualified and follow the cookbook. Whenever you stray off the recommended one, you are going on an adventure, and most DIYers are not going to have anywhere near your network skills. Even so, I appreciate the many comments below from experienced network troubleshooters.

I am totally impressed with your debug capability, considering you are mainly a cnc machine shop guru. Very good detective work. I wish I had your patience.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

The machine shop is a hobby.

@richardallankellogg

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 which is even more impressive!

Solid. I still have my 5 book Microsoft Windows TCP/IP networking manuals from around that time. Pity the trees. Good catch on the ARP bug.

I absolutely hate computers and anything to do with them, but I want to say I found your issue, explanation and repair absolutely fascinating !!!!!

Thank you for doing this video. It was fantastic training and informative

Fun times. I cant even imagine how much fun ill have when i finsh my build...raspbi pi 4 and linux cnc...ive already built the pi box and have linux cnc installed...servos next....great video...nice trouble shooting...

Very informative James, thanks for sharing Cheers

I always love your videos. Massive thumbs up

Nice work Watson

This was most interesting,thats why i subscribed,keep it up,great channel.

I have 28 + years in IT. I watched the entire episode, and I understand your conclusion. I don't think it entirely a ARP issue. I think it is more of a WOL issue or adapter compatibility issue. I have used several different small form factor pc's and pi's and have seen driver issues with several of them. You fixed it but I would careful going forward, you have other driver going forward as Windows Continue to be updated on you NUC.

I smiled when you whipped WireShark on the problem, I've worked with it since it was called Ethereal. I laughed out loud when Doug Comer's book (a method of encoding information on slices of dead trees!) came into play. WireShark was/is an essential tool in my late career as a network engineer for, among others, Cisco Systems. I used WireShark and tools like it (you can imagine my bosses reaction when, in 1990 I needed to order a Compaq "Lunchbox" and accessories for around thirty-five thousand dollars), if not daily, at least on a weekly basis for thirty years. Comer's book and also "Routing TCP" lived on my desktop. Anyway, nice catch on the Realtek chip configuration. I'll store it away in my memory for future troubleshooting. ARPing for the broadcast IP was the key. I saw the high-values in the pcap and it made me wonder but I have no experience with that chip set.

Fantastic as always James! Will need to explore using the Ether1616 now… I am not familiar with this device to expand my AcornSide note… and maybe you have this planned… but I’d be interested in a video on how you leverage Fusion with the imported electrical components to design your control panels.

James I have been a user of the Acorn Centroid product for a number of years and the company has an active user forum as well as tech support via email for troubleshooting. I am surprised you were not able to resolve the issue with what is available and were compelled to go into such detail to resolve the issue. However, I am sure they will appreciate your feedback on the problem.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

I opened a thread in the forum and was immediately assisted by a couple of people. After going through the usual suggestions to turn off IPv6, firewalls, virus scanners, etc. they were stumped. I reported my solution back to the thread and added a link to the solution in the first post.

You clearly know what you're doing so I'm sure the first thing you tried was blowing into the connectors.

Great job troubleshooting! I would have gotten stuck at the ARP packets. I would not have realized that the broadcast query was unnecessary.

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

It took me a while to realize it was wrong.

Woot woot. I've been waiting all morning.

Your a natural teacher

Your a wealth of knowledge

Thats crazy. Congratulations on finding the problem.

Thanks and interesting. Good old wire shark. ARP offload typically the default for NICs, in my mind this suggests a bug with the non-communicative board NIC hardware/firmware rather than your NUC and I guess good luck with getting them to sort that out! as you suggest they would blame your computer. Anyway workaround succeeded - congrats

Hah! - I actually have that book. 3rd edition and everything :) Nicely done. That LA is a treat

James, sometimes you give me a headache! ;-) But it's the good kinda headache like.... AAhhhhh Input!!! NICE! That book discription had me laughing. I am gonna steal that one from ya and use it. Cheers!!

When you brought the book out……that cracked me up.

Very nice, excellent explanations.

I plan to purchase a system from Centroid and a as a cost saving measure I plan to purchase a non-Centroid mini pc. The detail is deep and hope I do not have the same problems. However, thanks to you a roadmap is in place.

I love the fact that you have the EEVBlog DMM. I have the newer one on my workbench....

@Clough42

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that looks really nice. Maybe someday.

@JulieanGalak

2 жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 - it's a great meter, but I find its a bit overkill for most daily tasks. 99% of the time, I use my older Fluke. I only break out the 121GW when I need one of its advanced features, or if I need all my meters for a 4-meter set up.

Nice demo of packet communications and protocols. Drivers and how windows makes certain defaults can be equally frustrating. I have a test system that uses a USB bridge to Ethernet and is internal to the device. Windows and it’s fail sage registries (ya right) kept dumping my manually selected driver anytime I went from using a docking station to not. Even still using the same physical connection. Anyways, great demo!

Great job and great content. I don’t say this lightly but nice box!

Tell me more about this encoding information on the dead trees? /s Great video love seeing these sorts of exploration of things that *just come up* IMO that sort of stuff is the reason to watch a more hobbyist channel over a Professional Machinist or Professional CNC KZreadr. You have problems you explore those problems, heck sometimes you won't solve them, but we are coming along for the ride.

The before times, hahahahahahha! Oh man, I needed that today. Thanks James!