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@carkawalakhatulistiwa

11 ай бұрын

Please Made video soviet microdistrict vs USA suburb. What is better disain

@jeffwindrim975

5 ай бұрын

I’m curious what is the price difference of a regular length trolley bus VS a regular length lithium battery powered bus

@CosmicSeeker69

5 ай бұрын

that was in the video @@jeffwindrim975

@jeffwindrim975

5 ай бұрын

@@CosmicSeeker69 The Bay Street Bus I believe was the last running trolley bus in Toronto.

Environmentally speaking, trolleybusses are way superior compared to battery electric busses, they don't require toxic rare earth metals like BEBs do. That's why, in my opinion, we should be building them whenever possible and sensical. Like, it wouldn't make much sense to build overhead electrical cables for a limited rural bus service.

@Taladar2003

11 ай бұрын

Obviously in areas with heavy traffic tram or metro lines might make more sense than trolley buses too.

@NeonNion

11 ай бұрын

@@Taladar2003 Of course! Trolleybusses would best perform in somewhere in the middle. In Helsinki regional area, we have many trunk bus lines, which are characterized by orange color from normal blue one. The busiest of them, called line 550, was just upgraded to a tram line. It hasn't opened to the public yet, but will open very soon. Other lines are busy too, but don't justify building tram tracks in the same way. It's those kinds of services that I think should be built to trolley standard. And I do think that every trolley line should be built in a way that would allow a possible future upgrade to a tram line.

@dulau2510

11 ай бұрын

In rural areas we should have diesel buses or trains, it's not efficient for an electric bus to cover large distances

@DerpSenpai

11 ай бұрын

There are batteries nowadays that don't use toxic rare earth metals. Just Lithium, Iron and Phosphate

@sickre

11 ай бұрын

What is the environmental (and financial) overhead of setting up and maintaining the overhead lines?

Save trolleybuses!

@destrozar

11 ай бұрын

We have trolley buses in Lyon, aswell as trams, bendy buses and a great metro system.

@andrewdubs5664

11 ай бұрын

The biggest trolleybus network is in Kyiv and I'm sure it won't be replaced for very long

@kluculda

8 ай бұрын

Are you sure? Moscow was the biggest and after a few years... One idiot and go done...

@doa_3

8 ай бұрын

​​@@andrewdubs5664biggest and most fckd. I live here and I know what im saying

@roemerjonker284

7 ай бұрын

Yes

The biggest reason I love trolleybuses is when the bus gets bigger, there's no need to put a bigger battery in there because they source electricity from overhead wires. So in my opinion the bi-articulated or even tri-articulated trolleybuses are usually a better investment than the standard size ones.

@Myrtone

2 күн бұрын

And as buses with internal combustion engined buses get bigger, there is a need to make the fuel tank bigger, exactly analogous to battery only electric buses. It is not possible for a vehicle to source a liquid or gaseous fuel while moving, only when stationary. That itself puts electric traction at an advantage.

Trolleybuses with batteries give you the best of both: they are lighter, cheaper, autonomous, don't need dedicated chargers, do not waste time on charging, don't require overhanging cables everywhere, are able to reroute

@Myrtone

2 күн бұрын

Consider that fact that even buses with internal combustion engines need dedicated fuel dispensers and can only be refuelled while stationary. In-motion refuelling is not an option, in-motion supply of electrical power is and that itself puts electric traction at an advantage.

i've lived in Arnhem for 15 years now, all maintenance i've known to have been done in this time is when a lorry that shouldn't have been where it was drove into a bridge and smooched the wires. there was also one street that got extensively redone, and in the meantime the poles holding the wires up got redone. both were done within a few days. there is one truly ancient service lorry that is an event when it's spotted, i've seen it twice when a storm made some branches fall on the wires. wires last a long time, but if they need to be changed, the service lorry comes by at night, and changes the wires over at about 2kmh, without any noise that would wake anyone. As stated, the network is about 70 years old and doing just fine. the amount of maintenance seems to be quite minimal, as does the additional outages and delays. the worst thing that seems to happen is that someone pulls the ropes of the fishing poles to be funny, but it seems most people of questionable intelligence think that that is where the electricity is, so it doesn't happen all that often

Trolley buses are unambiguously good. We should definitely have wires put up in our cities and we should also use those wires for other things as well, like the garbage trucks, postal vans, snow plows and such. We should make the batteries in those vehicles relatively small and probably interchangeable as opposed to fitting them with a gigantic battery that mostly just sits there being hauled around. With advances in robotics and sensors, it shouldn't be that difficult to design a system that can put the poles back onto the wires autonomously basically anywhere. However, I have to push back a little bit on the stuff about the mining, most of the stories are overblown and a lot of them are propaganda from oil companies. Oil companies, by the way are the biggest consumers of cobalt, it's used in diesel refining. The fire risk is definitely real, but we're starting to see interesting breakthroughs in sodium ion battery chemistry that has a much reduced fire risk. It's got a lower energy density but as I said we shouldn't be putting multiple ton batteries in the buses anyway. Good presentation overall.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Agree! In general, in my opinion, battery technology is still in the process of development, so it is a bit early for cities to invest millions in something that will most likely become obsolete in just a few years

@GaryGraham-sx4pm

11 ай бұрын

induction charging. busses stop for a minute at bus stops. level with the road surface at bus stops is an induction charger. under the bus is an induction charge receiver. two types of electricity storage on bus; super capacitors for quick charge and initial motion inertia, plus whatever is most efficient battery cells for traction power between stops. (charge induction is only live when interfaced with charge receiver). for two reasons; no catenary and associated maintenance, and no need for on- board charging generator or the weight of all-of-trip battery capacity. possible multi-use for other electric utility vehicles.

@jan-lukas

11 ай бұрын

​@@GaryGraham-sx4pmbuses and trucks are to heavy for induction based systems, as they're inefficient. Meanwhile cars are not tall enough for overhead wire... On highways we might get both, but in the cities it will be mostly wires

@GaryGraham-sx4pm

11 ай бұрын

@@jan-lukas. thanx for your reply. induction electrical energy transfer is very efficient, every transformer is an induction energy transfer device. induction suitable for buses because of predetermined and frequent charging positions at bus stops. there are about a dozen examples of viable induction charged city bus systems.

@none776

11 ай бұрын

​@@GaryGraham-sx4pm The efficiency of inductive charging decreases when an air gap increases. AC transformers are very large and have zero air gap. And therefore they are effective.

I live in Kyiv and the main public transport option that I use is trolleybus! Kyiv trolleybuses are just iconic

Trolleybus is the real Eco-friendly bus.

Trollybusses are great for citys with a high frequency, battery-electric busses are great for low-frequency longer range routes, like in rural areas or for special services. A Public transit network should always have a few network-indipendent busses, to compensate for big events, accidents and construction on mainlines, evactuations etc. even if it usually only runs trollybusses.

Can't believe you didn't mention Mexico City, the system was fully renovated with brand new Yutong trolleybuses and many new kilometres of this service have been or are being created.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

That's for the next videos :)

@gundurito

11 ай бұрын

And instead of buying electric buses for BRT lines they should have upgraded them to trolleybuses, which WILL last longer.

@dxelson

10 ай бұрын

With the current anti-china sentiment, probably doesnt want to cover chinese products.. everything chinese is evil, even if its the worlds largest green energy producer

In Vancouver Canada there's lots of trolley buses. I rode the number 19 which takes you to Stanley Park and I got to say, trolley buses accelerate fast! They're definitely one of my favourite type of buses second only to double deckers.

@AlRoderick

11 ай бұрын

But imagine, double decker trolley bus.

@DanTheCaptain

11 ай бұрын

@@AlRoderickthey have existed before. They were really common in the UK, however had a similar fate as trams in America.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

I'm trying to imagine double-decker and bi-articulated trolleybus - that will be a thing!

@MarceloBenoit-trenes

11 ай бұрын

@@DanTheCaptain worse... because no trolleybus system survived after 1972 in UK.

@pbilk

11 ай бұрын

​@@MarceloBenoit-trenesodd, that was the time of the oil crisis. You would think the opposite for people who drove less would take transit.

I 100% agree. Sometimes the solution to future problems is unappretiated technologies of the past.

Not all batteries use cobalt and much more is used in oil refining and combustion engines, and you can only use the fuel once. Also some battery types are safer than others.

@CosmicSeeker69

5 ай бұрын

that's incorrect - cobalt in refining is almost - but not quite ever lasting - The equation is around 660.000 gals of fuel per ounce of cobalt used up. You are right about LFP being much safer, however at a much lower energy density

Thanks for highlighting at the end, that trolley buses are also electric buses. I prefer to speak of battery buses and trolley buses to mark the real difference of both power systems. And overall, a really good video of course :-)

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thank you! That's a good point about a battery bus, it's really more clear.

I really appreciate that there are a variety of options for people getting around. Different circumstances call for different solutions. Thanks for this in depth look at these modes!

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Great video! Here in Bratislava (Slovakia), the trolleybus network is about to be significantly expanded, and I'm really looking forward to the double-articulated vehicles which should enter operation sometime this year! However, the city still feels the need to tinker with battery electric and even hydrogen buses as well, for some reason.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thanks! Bratislava is very interesting in terms of public transport with all it's trams and trolleybuses :)

Mexico City has a 203km trolleybus network served by 290 units on 9 lines, with two more lines under construction. Latest acquisitions have included simple and articulated units with supporting batteries and are regularly used as a support whenever the subway or other systems fail, having a ~80km battery autonomy.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Mexico City strong. It's worth a separate video

You now could argue: “Well actually copper for the wires too is not renewable”. A Copper wire is comparable much easier to recycle, melt it down and cast it again, recycled it is. I agree with you about trolley omnibusses. I would add to the argument. The electric bus is more or less still a development platform, there are a lot more improvements to be done, meanwhile the trolley omnibus is a decades proven technology. Because we need green transport now not tomorrow, spending the extras upfront is in my opinion just worth it. Furthermore if you City also operates a tram network you could always argue that the trolley omnibuses is a 15% down payment for a tram. When the demand increases to a thresholds put in rails, remove one of the wires and you have a tram.

My local suburb recently got a bunch of electric buses, seemingly out of the blue. You now see them everywhere and the transition has been almost unnoticeable except for seeing them drive around. While Trolley buses may be the better form of technology, they require quite a bit of political shenanigans and dealing with residents before you can even start to build a network. On the other hand it appears that battery electric buses can just be rolled out under our noses without any fanfare. At the end of the day, while it would be nice to see more trolley buses, I feel like by the time that anyone gets their act together to even consider them, we will see practically all our networks run by battery buses. Note: the buses they are using do not have quick charge capability, they simply run their route then charge back up at the depot when they run low. That doesn't work for all routes but it works for at least 75% of them. While more complex solutions will be required for the other routes, I feel as if we have just entered the mass adoption stage of battery buses where they will soon be everywhere, and cities will only have to try and solve the long routes problem in a few years.

@MarceloBenoit-trenes

11 ай бұрын

Wait until batteries run out and they will need to start changing them at a lot of cost.

Pretty good video! Some additional comments: • Switzerland has 13 active trolleybus systems; all of them use either single- or double-articulated vehicles. There are no more standard size trolleybuses in operation in Switzerland. This can be understood in the way that trolleybus (especially the bi-articulated kind) is in the top range for the operation field of buses. If you have to get beyond the feasible capacity, you have to go rail-based. • The results of the research with the SwissTrolley Plus lead to the development of a sophisticated energy/battery management system, which takes into account the topography of the line, in order to get all energy created with regenerative braking into the battery (instead of braking resistors or the overhead wires). So, it makes sure that the battery is sufficiently discharged before a downhill section of the line, and that it is becomes fully charged at its end. The effect of this system is that the energy consumed from the overhead wires can be reduced by about 25%. • It took VBZ only a few thousand franks in infrastructure investment to electrify a specific line from diesel to BTB with IMC operation (well, this line ran under wire for about half its length already). • The video mentioned it already, the manufacturers never list range in unrestricted mode (meaning that all consumers are active), but always in restricted (or emergency) mode, where all non-essential consumers are switched off. A rule of thumb by VBZ is that you design the vehicles around unrestricted mode with 2.8 kWh/km (single-articulated). • In St. Gallen, extending the overhead line network by 20% allowed to double the network length operated with electric vehicles. So, it should be a no-brainer for systems having already trolleybuses in operation to expand with BTBs with IMC.

We have trolleybuses in Naples (Italy) and we are one of the very few places in the whole world to actually be expanding our system! For example, we converted route 604 (now 204) from diesel to trolleybus, and routes R5 and 168 are shortly to follow (to be renumbered 205 and 206 respectively). Definitely think trolleybuses are the way to go. Problem with batteries is the intense amount of production required, and not environmentally friendly at all

The way to go is to combine the two, like shown with your Solingen example: Until recently, some trolley buses had auxiliary diesel motors to maneuver around bus yards, parts without overhead wires or obstacles on their regular lines. Now, these auxiliary motors can be replaced by batteries that can be recharged via the overhead wires. These batteries are rather small and lighter than an auxiliary motor with fuel, and usually don't have a wide range, but they allow the buses to reach the next functioning power lines. Unlike diesel motors they don't need start-up time nor an additional fuel supply. What makes these systems additionally attractive is their ability to recuperate energy when braking, which saves both energy and break pads abrasion. The size of the battery packs can be adapted to the specific needs of a system. In Salzburg, for example, one trolley line extends far beyond the city overhead wire system into a suburb. The bus runs and recharges first under the wire system of the city and then runs autonomously on the country road out to the suburb for a total of more than 20 km. Employing these dual mode buses offers easy solutions for example when it comes to opening routes that cross a railway line with conflicting overhead wires, or underneath low bridges with insufficient clearance to install overhead wires.

Small correction: For Switzerland, I count not 11, but 14 operating trolleybus network systems. One of which is debatable (La Chaux-de-Fonds), because it's just re-opening this year after a 10 year intermediate period of closure. These trolleybuses indeed see a revival in recent years, with a large ridership and many technical innovations. One line just passes by my house, and I don't mind the noise at all; they are more quiet than some of the cars passing. Here's the list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Switzerland

@tintin_999

11 ай бұрын

One downside of trolleybuses, they are two quiet sometimes. I almost got killed by one in Goldbrunnenplatz when I first moved to Zurich as I was going to step out onto the street but was looking the wrong way (due to being from downunder) and couldn't hear it coming. Luckily my mate grabbed me and prevented me stepping out in front of it.

@maxwyss7447

11 ай бұрын

Well, actually, we have to count 13 systems; while La Chaux-de-Fonds is phasing in, Schaffhausen is phasing out… Schaffhausen obviously fell for the Irizar eye candy… Somehow fortunate that La Chaux-de-Fonds left the wires up after taking them down in the city centre because of big style rebuilding. And with only very limited effort, they could re-energise them, and run tests with a vehicle borrowed from Biel. Together with the need for renewal of the more than 30 years old vehicles in Neuchâtel, transN could stitch together a substantial order, where deliveries are supposed to start later this year.

@markusstudeli2997

11 ай бұрын

@@tintin_999 Them being quiet can also be looked at as an asset, but yes, not if you''ve recently moved from the British Isles or down-under... glad you survived the first few months on Zürich's streets!

@dougbrowning82

11 ай бұрын

Prior to the pandemic, Winnipeg was testing battery electric buses. Since the pandemic, nothing has been seen or heard of them.

I see Trolleybusses every Day at Work, Our little Trolleybus system survived because Esslingen was once Test-City for the Mercedes-Benz Duobusses of the O 305 and O 405 GTD Type. Starting next year, the currently 10 Overheadwire/Battery Duobusses will be joined by 46 more Overheadwire/Battery Duobusses and the Wires will be extended in some locations. The SVE even bought back the last ever Build O 405 GTD as an historic Trolleybus. After 11 Years No. 327 was back home.

This is an excellent video, it lays out all the important points in enough detail without being too long, and is balanced with pros and cons.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thanks! Nice to hear that!

Very interesting and good video! I'm so glad I live here in Arnhem (The Netherlands) because I really like trolleybuses and visit Solingen very often, which is only 2,5 hours by train from Arnhem. Keep up the good work! 🙌

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thanks! Hope you've subscribed!

@Brengfan2015

11 ай бұрын

​@@cityforallI actually forgot about that, now I do! 😃🙌

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

@@Brengfan2015 now good :)

Perfectly done, thanks!

I would love to see more of these trolleybuses along regional roads in my city in Canada. We recently developed a tram line down the centre of the whole city. I personally would love to see more tram lines or even mass passenger rail service along regional roads, especially since you don't have the micro particles from rubber tires. However, if trolleybuses can get more cars off the road the better. Reduce the micropollution with one bus but removing many cars is a step in the right direction.

@sirBrouwer

11 ай бұрын

if you can have the trolleybuses link in to the tram network on the parts they already exist. you could have one of those more semi trolly systems. like lines above when available but you don't need lines all the time. reducing the cost of building them all at once.

@dougbrowning82

11 ай бұрын

Vancouver still has 13 trolley bus routes, with a fleet of 262 units, including 74 articulates. The latest of which were purchased in 2016 from Winnipeg based New Flyer Industries. Vancouver also has an extensive autonomous electric light rail system. Toronto has 9 tram lines on an 82kn network throughout the city, as well as a metro system. And Montreal also has a metro system. Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa all have light rail.

@ragellejean

11 ай бұрын

@@dougbrowning82 The current fleet of trolley buses in Vancouver came into service around 2006/2007 and should be reaching retirement by the latter half of the decade. And if I’m not mistaken, there are ~14 routes lol

Fully agree! I have lived in Arnhem for 4 years and I know them from Budapest. And so I kept asking myself the same questions. The combo of trolleybus and battery was new for me but makes all the sense. Thank you for making this video!

Trolleybuses should always be retained, Battery buses should only supplement them, and should be equipped with trolley poles too so they can charge while the fully charged ones can go off grid. the highest demand systems should have their lanes made exclusive or be converted to Trams like we have in Melbourne, Australia. i wish we had more trolleybuses here instead of buses, suburban/intercity ones would be amazing

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Yep, that's very good synergy

@xymaryai8283

11 ай бұрын

​@@cityforalli know its better to stick with proven technologies, but the 2 wire systems are still clumsy, theres a reason why trams quickly adopted pantographs, and while yes they have the tracks that they can use for return current, hopefully we discover some reliable way that trolleybuses (or maybe they'll be called trambuses) can use tram catenary systems

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

@@xymaryai8283 you are talking about Translohr system, but it's actually worse than normal tram.

@dougbrowning82

11 ай бұрын

@@xymaryai8283 One advantage of trolley buses over trams is their ability to move to the curb to load/unload, and move around other road traffic. The swivelling trolley poles are adept at these manoeuvres.

@xymaryai8283

11 ай бұрын

@@cityforall oh, nevermind then i am not a fan of the Translohr

Thank you for giving some attention to my hometown Arnhem. Being born and raised here, I can’t imagine my city without the trolleybus network. And over the past 25 years the city and the province did a lot to invest in the quality and future of the network. Can’t wait for the hybrid trolleybus service to Wageningen to start next year. Unfortunately we also had some closures. Some disused trolley wiring in the south part of the city finally has been removed (after hanging there for more than 20 years without any trolleybus service), so chances any conventional trolleybus lines will run along the roads in question there are very slim now. The trolleybus line to Hoogkamp was cancelled back in 2017 (after they rebuilt the line only 7 years earlier), but the wiring is still there and active. If the new hybrid line to Wageningen will be a succes, I have high hopes Hoogkamp will get trolleybus services again in a similar hybrid form. I was really impressed with the speed, frequencies and reliability of the Zürich trolleybus system. Their system seems to be more focused on connecting outer areas of the city, whereas the tram is the main connector of the outer areas with the city center. And they work perfect together, also when it comes to interchangeability.

Well done video, interesting and well presented, with also many interesting comments

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Thank you very much!

Love your videos! Just subscribed!

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

That's great! I'm happy!

In Philadelphia trolley buses are being used as trams are being phased out. It’s great with a trolley system already built in

@willtheawesome9006

Ай бұрын

Sadly, the trolleybus network, or trackless trolleys as we call them, has only shrunk since 2003. Only 3 routes remain today, based out of Frankford Depot. All the overhead wires in South Philly were cut down years ago, and Septa has no plans to restore any trackless routes, let alone establish new ones, saying it would be too "cost prohibitive". Not to mention all the streetcar lines that have been "suspended" and the rails paved over. Needless to say, public transit in Philadelphia is in a bit of a sad state right now. If only we had the proper funding for a world class transit system befitting of a major city...

...one city in the States that uses dual mode trolleybuses (electric/diesel) is Seattle. Sadly their neighbour to the south where I live (Portland) dismantled it's trolleybus network decades ago and plans to go all battery electric. by 2035. The city does have a fairly extensive LRT network (particularly for its size) as well as two street tram lines. Sadly only a handful of cities in the country here still have trolleybus networks, the largest being San Francisco followed by Seattle.

Great one 👌

This video's title should be rewritten as: Why are Trolleybuses so great. And why I don't like electric buses.

2:36 I REALLY appreciate him saying "Two and a half hundred" instead of Two hundred fifty for some reason.... My day really needed that!

In-Motion-Charging (IMC) trolleybuses are the real game changers! Coming from a city where we used to have trolleybuses, and we will have them again next year with IMC-trolleybuses, I can tell for sure that you end up not paying attention anymore to overhead wires. For decades, companies specialized in overhead wires have been developing technologies enabling these wires to remain discrete. Most disturbing could be those "spider webs" implied by switches. But again, with IMC trolleybuses, we could remove these and cross these sections in battery mode like they do in Beijing next to the Tiananmen Square.

Something that, if you mentioned it, you really glossed over it, the battery buses weight really wear down roads a LOT faster than trolley buses or even diesel buses (which are already heavier than trolley buses). My local city never had a trolley bus system, but in an effort to go green has been heavily investing in (battery) electric buses. Not only did they not save nearly as much as they thought they would on up front costs due to the high costs of the vehicles and the charging infrastructure, but they aren't saving overall on maintenance, they've just swapped maintaining overhead wires for extra maintenance on the roads from extra wear and tear from super heavy buses. Also, and this is a very important thing for cities to factor in, battery buses kind of suck, let me rephrase that, they really really suck. The heater doesn't keep up in the winter, the air conditioning doesn't keep up in the summer, all because the manufacturer had to skimp on the HVAC system to maximize the range of the bus, the acceleration isn't as fast as a trolley bus, it isn't even as fast as a diesel bus, and while part of this is that it is a new tech still, they are so unreliable that our city has had to take some of our old diesels out of retirement (not even our hybrids, just straight diesels) because so many of the electrics are out of service at any given time. Of course, we've learned nothing and we're doubling down on not investing in overhead wires and instead investing in hydrogen fuel cell buses and a hydrogen electrolysis station. Oh well, at least the buses will be lighter and won't damage the roads as quickly.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Wow, that's really interesting, thanks for sharing this. May I ask you what city are you talking about?

@smileyeagle1021

11 ай бұрын

@@cityforall Reno Nevada. The most recent example of the road wear and tear was a $3.25 million project that, in fairness did also include a new rather large bus shelter and sidewalk improvements, to build a multiple feet thick concrete pad at a busy bus stop because of the damage the bus sitting there while passengers were boarding did to the asphalt. I can't find anything in the public records on how much of the project cost was the bus shelter and sidewalk improvements and how much was the roadway repairs, however the funding source is listed as being from fuel taxes, so I'm fairly certain that legally the majority of the project expense had to be road repairs.

@maxwyss7447

11 ай бұрын

Actually, buses are always among the vehicles with the highest axle load (especially when they go into sardine can mode…). As there are (at least in the civilised world) relatively strict limitations on total vehicle weight (in Switzerland 30 t for a single-articulated and 40 t for a double-articulated), it is a tradeoff between passenger capacity and battery capacity… this translates to 200 kWh corresponding to 12 passengers capacity - which in a single-articulated vehicle is about 8% of the capacity. Therefore you will need more BatteryElectric Buses to handle the same line capacity (we talk between 15 and 30%!). And this can easily compensate the additional cost for overhead lines…

I live in the Boston area, where the MBTA has been gradually removing trolleybus lines and replacing trolleybuses with diesel buses (with a vague promise of one day replacing them with battery-only electric buses). I wish I knew any way we could prevent them doing that.

The first city to operate trolleybusses (with trolley poles) was not Leeds, but Königstein(Sachsen) in Germany in 1901, but operations closed in 1904 already. The second one was the Industriebahn Wurzen (1905 - 1928), which interestingly was transporting goods, not passengers.

Tip for a next video. Talk about Trolleybuses in Brazil. Especially in the city of São Paulo.

The smallest US city to have trolleybuses was Wilkesbarre which had its positives but was partly used as a way to end trolley service when national city lines took over. They only continued to run the trolley buses till 1958 when they managed to get a hold repealed that forced them to continue using them. Some routes that had trolleybuses are no longer served today due to tight curves and steep grades as the modern natural gas buses struggle on these lines. Tho compared. The big downside that both electric and diesel busses suffered was the lack of private ROW which the streetcars had across 90 percent of the system. The buses are always stuck in traffic.

Busses are bumpy as you can see at many points in this video and the more busses there are the more the road wears out and makes the problem worse and expensive to fix. Tram rails are smooth and last a lot longer which is much more comfortable for passengers. Trams require less energy, because steel on steel has much less friction and although trolley/battery busses aren't spewing out diesel fumes tyres still produce particle pollution and make the air in cities worse. If a route is used enough to make it worth building the infrastructure for a trolley bus then perhaps it's worth putting in tram lines. On top of that a trolley bus requires two cables: a tram only one. Which one is the future? Trams. Trolley busses are at best a budget option.

They still have trolleybuses in Vilnius. They are very good and fast! Only 20 min from my stop in Zirmunai to Vingio Parkas!

One of the best videos I've seen on this topic! It would be great if we could get some trolleybuses back in the UK, but there seems to be no will for it unfortunately. London is all-in on double decker hybrid and battery electric buses for some reason. By the way, I would not use the word "autonomous" because it makes me think of "driverless", which is a totally different thing to what you were talking about.

@cityforall

9 ай бұрын

Thanks! Glad that you liked it! BTW I guess you are from the UK? Can I ask what are the most recent urban news there? :)

Good video! Still, you didn't mention Hungary it only has 3 cities. Now days it uses hybrid "trolley" and "battery" bus which it is more efficient to take detour and less consume battery.

I remember we had electric trolley busses in Toronto then one year they did away with them and just put regular busses on the routes. Now just a memory from the past.

Okay, I must admit that I only clicked on this video because I saw Kyiv in the preview. Cheers!

You forgot to mention that trolley busses have the big advantage of high acceleration. the 750 VDC network (also used in tramsystems) can deliver a lot of power.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Yes, you are right

@wyqtor

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, they are especially good in hilly cities.

I live in Salzburg, Austria and here they have a trolleybus system since the 1950s or maybe even earlier. Today they use 4 different types of Trolleybusses - Van Hool, Solaris (2 different ones) and Hess - the Hess ones are used on lines with limited overhead lines (on at least one line the last 1-2 km don't have overhead wires, so the bus runs of its built-in batery. And by the way - the electricity is won by water energy plants in the local river Salzach. And there's one electric bus since last year to run on a local line out of the city. at 19:55 we can see one of Salzburg's old trolley busses sold to the Ukraine, because of the coloration and the bus number (197) on the side - trolley busses in operation here start at the 200 numbers... I always wondered what the 100s were like.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

That old trolleybuses are now operating in Ivano-Frankivsk. And as far as I remember they also have some vehicles from other Austrian cities. I have to check which exactly.

@Brauiz90

11 ай бұрын

@@cityforall Nice to know they still run to this day.

where I live in the US the state has been working on getting all city buses over to electric and they have been moving pretty quickly to do it and its nice to see especially in the bigger cities and even highway rest stops using solar panels its pretty cool.

@qjtvaddict

11 ай бұрын

Nice😊

@dougbrowning82

11 ай бұрын

Van Hoole is testing a double decker, battery electric motor coach on a long distance, intercity run from California to Florida. Their won't be any paying passengers, just invited company officials on this run. The bus will be charging at standard, Tesla supercharging stations along the way.

16:30 The metals are used again and again unlike oil which is used only once.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

*if you have recycling industry

I’m pretty sure there’s like one or no manufacturers actually making trolley buses in the US. This makes it increasingly difficult for trolleybuses to be integrated into US urban transport, especially when you consider that federal grant programs for clean buses seem to award only battery or hydrogen buses.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Wikipedia says that there is one - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillig But Switzerland also has one but they don't have problems with that. I suppose more difficult is to deal with norms and import duties

@evanstonbalce9588

7 ай бұрын

New Flyer Industries or NFI makes trolleybuses, a Canadian company which has factories both in the US and Canada

Trolley buses and electric buses are different concepts with different economics. Trolley buses make sense on trunk routes, with frequent services and enough paying customers. Just like trams and metros, it requires an investment for each piece of route or track you want to run. For example, Amsterdam has a network of metros and trams to cover the trunk routes. There is a vast network of complementary buses that serves the city, the airport and its suburbs. It wouldn't make economic sense to build wires on all these dozens of routes. Battery-powered buses made it posdible to switch from diesel to electric, which otherwise would have remained diesel. It costs infrastructure at the hubs only, which is shared between many different routes.

i live in Switzerland, the country of trolleybuses (there are some even in small cities), and i fully agree

Actually the best one is a hybrid of the two that uses super capacitors instead of lithium ion batteries! So it can operate like a trolley bus on dedicated busway parts of their routes while being able to run off wire for a significant amount of their routes where they may have to share the road with other traffic! ::

@CosmicSeeker69

5 ай бұрын

super capacitors ROCK!

The two technologies can be combined it's called in motion charging a battery electric bus can charge using the overhead wires 750v DC or 600v DC in addition to its battery charge on the Depot side. Vossloh Kipe has this.

@cityforall

4 ай бұрын

Actually that is what I've told in the conclusion :)

@EpicThe112

4 ай бұрын

Thank you for telling me about that if you are looking for a system in the United States that has the diesel for emergency detours it's Philadelphia ​@@cityforall

Cheap af transportation exist Politicians : i can't see it im blind

Trolleybus chads represent! Battery-extended trolleybus chads represent! Hilly terrain -> trolleybuses without question

Why not both? In Lublin, Poland there are new trolley buses with batteries. They are able to go for a few kilometers only on battery where there is no electric line. When it goes back on track it connects to the line again.

@cityforall

5 ай бұрын

Looks like you haven't watched the whole video - in the conclusion I've told exactly the same.

I really love how Solaris looks like

I guess there is a mistake in the video about world biggest trolleybus network: it should be Minsk, Belarus, not Kyiv, Ukraine. Minsk took the 1st place after Moscow removed its network in 2019. BTW, Minsk Trolleybus Network modernizes regularly and consist of both trolley buses and battery buses.

@cityforall

2 ай бұрын

As far as I remember, Minsk is the biggest by number of routes while Kyiv - by the total lengh. IMHO total lengh is more important in this regard.

can you share to link brochure that you mentioned in Zurich swiss part.

@cityforall

7 ай бұрын

I'have downloaded it quite a long time ago. Now I can't google it. I could send it to you via e-mail, just PM me your address in Twitter please

Great video! You didn't mention Hungary (only 3 cities have trolley busses), but Budapest has a pretty good trolley system as well, so it's worth checking out, if someone is interested. The terminus of line 74 even had a little cameo at 4:20

@wyqtor

11 ай бұрын

Budapest also has the longest trams in the world.

it reminded me of Kharkiv mayor who wants to replace "obsolete" and "uncomfortable" trams and trollyebuses with electric busses🤡🤡🤡 he's so silly

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

I'm sorry to hear that :(

@Rssika

11 ай бұрын

While mayor is a corrupt crook driving Bugatti instead of setting a foot in public Transit. 😂

Good video. 👍

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Medium to long-term battery busses will probably win out. The cost of creating and maintaining the cable infrastructure is quite high and battery buses continue to get cheaper and more capable. Existing networks will probably survive for the next couple of years, but even there could be a point where it will no longer be economical.

@maxwyss7447

11 ай бұрын

Not really; the weight issue of the batteries remains, and for a urban-bus-grade battery, the prospects for weight reduction are very slow. The other problem, build garage space with sufficient power supply for Overnight Charging, remains as well. There is only very limited economy of scale when it comes to charging buses overnight. OTOH, because of the capability of autonomy, the expensive parts of a trolleybus overhead grid, complex squares with switches and crossings, can be avoided, and the overhead lines can be limited to simple linear entities, which don't cost much to build and even less to maintain.

In a small but rapidly growing city, what do you think would be the best option for a public transportation line? Tram, BRT, trolleybus or conventional electric buses? (Considering that it would be approximately 10-20km and more than 90k people would use that line everyday)

@cityforall

8 ай бұрын

It depends of lots of factors - budget, city planning, street conditionc etc.

Can you tell us more technical information about the bus? Battery capacity, range, where the motors are? I am curious to know about the drivetrain since it new technology. Thank you very much.

It makes nothing but sense. In some places they have the trolley bus run partly on the tram network. I went to the trolleybus museum in the midlands and I was told that the UK government has closed their mind to it. I would combine some of the routes with kerb sided steering, which, as with trams, allows much smaller gaps between vehicles. Kerbside guided tracks have the advantage of a tram, that they can run through a large park, making impossible for ordinary vehicles to use the track and the gap in the middle can be greened with vegetation and low growth flowers. The making of the tracks can be cheap as large scale 3d printing can be employed on a seemless operation with a choice of materials like concrete or suitable plastics

I wonder if a different kind of trolley bus could avoid overhead wires - instead using light poles with nearly "invisible" electric contact bars. Each electrode arm holds up the end of a wire; the other ends of the wires are held up by a drone. The point is, the wires slide against the contact bars, allowing the bus to receive power for some time as it drives past a light pole. This way, the battery only needs to provide enough power to get from one light pole to the next, and there's no visual impact on the scenery. The drone makes some noise, but I don't think it will be much noise in the big scheme of things. It might also lower infrastructure costs, because existing light poles have power supply suitable for older less efficient lights.

The advantage of buses is that you can easily reconfigure lines. That is lost when switching to trolleybuses. Trams are the best for fixed medium-capacity routes, as they are more efficient (reduced wheel friction, mostly dedicated right-of-way, at least outside city centers). Also, tram can be considerably longer than trolleybuses and have a higher capacity per vehicle.

@boomerix

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, but that is relatively irrelevant in most of Europe. City and rural bus lines my see a slight route change maybe once every 20 years.

1:15 Lugano, Switzerland… That’s a sad story. What looked like a great idea eventually lead to the trolleybus system’s demise. They picked a 1 kV system. That’s great, because it requires less copper (i.e. thinner cables) compared to the common 600 V or less common 750 V systems. Sadly, the world evolved to a point at which there was no manufacturer capable of making new 1 kV trolleybuses for Lugano and so they didappeared in the early 2000s. The last overhead wieres in Viale Castagnola survived until approximately 2014, but had not been used since ~2002 anyway.

here in verona they are building that kind of trolleybus, articulated and with only partial catenary to avoid ruining the historic centre wiew

I can't believe you didn't mention Santiago de Chile, the city with the most electric buses in the world outside of China

I do sometimes wonder if it's worth putting up the infrastructure for trolleybuses, then it's just worth putting in trams instead. Although I wonder if the wires for trolleybuses could be used on a future tram system?

Light rail always is more efficient due to elimination of the rolling resistance of tyres

Trolleybuses or battery buses: why not both? In my city (Saint-Petersburg) the battery buses are operated by the enterprise that runs buses and they replace regular buses on their routes. Trolleybuses, on the other hand, are run by a different operator and have their own routes (they often have the same number as a bus that they intersect with, but a completely different route, so an unsuspecting tourist can confuse them)

@o_s-24

11 ай бұрын

Same situation here in Yerevan. It's so annyoing, like, just add a "T" in front of the number...

The future will be the combination of both technologies.

Any thoughts on hydrogen buses? My city is starting to implement a system of this kind and I don't know how they compare to both battery electric buses or trolley buses.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

I think I should make a separate video about it. What city are you talking about?

@sweetdrummer27

11 ай бұрын

@@cityforall Porto, Portugal. The initiative, by the name Unir, is in its starting phase, launching the first line in September.

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

Oh, Porto is amazing city, I've enjoyed it once.

@maxwyss7447

11 ай бұрын

Hydrogen (urban) buses exist only when either there is a LOT of subsidies, or the operators are mathematically challenged. Operation cost are considerably higher (findings in Montpellier came to a factor of SIX compared to Battery Buses), and they still need a traction battery. You may consider the hydrogen fuel cell subsystem as a range extender for the battery bus. In another place, Wuppertal, the energy to create hydrogen comes from the city-owned garbage incinerator fed power station, and they obviously don't take the real price for the electricity into account (or the actively forget that they could do much more with that energy, making accordingly more money). For the investments, they still need subsidies from the Land and Staat. In even another places, it is just ideology insisting on hydrogen which gives hydrogen fuel cell buses a chance. Total Lifecycle Cost simply don't matter. Note that hydrogen for transportation is one desparate attempt by the petrochemical industry to somehow remain in business.

The problem with Cobalt is confined to a single type of batteries, Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt batteries. Those are mostly used in mobile devices, because they allow for the most compact built. In car batteries. Cobalt use is far lower than 10 years ago, and now, you can get the same energy density with only a tenth of the Cobalt usage. Other battery types like Lithium-Ironphosphate don't use any Cobalt all, and no Nickel either. All they use is Ironphosphate, which is quite abundant everywhere and so harmless, that you can literally pour a teaspoon full of Ironphosphate in your morning coffee and drink it without fear of poisoning. Ironphosphate batteries don't burn. They will of course melt down if heated up, but so will the whole bus anyway. And they are mechanically stable. Drive a nail through a Lithium-Ironphosphate battery, and it will lose some of its capacity, but still be working. Biggest disadvantage: Lithium-Ironphosphate batteries have a foamy structure, making their size larger than Lithium-NMC. Thus they won't be used in mobile devices. And in low-floor busses, you have to find a place to store the large (but not necessarily heavier) batteries inside the bus. The water usage in Lithium mining is also more complex. The grade of water purity you need is far less than the quality necessary for agriculture or drinking water. You can use industrial waste water for instance. In Chile, there are legal limits on the usage of waste water, which forced the mining operater to use fresh water instead.

You omitted the fact that battery buses are heavier and cause more road infrastructure damage. Road damage increases with the fourth power of axle weight so it is not insignificant.

We should make battery busses that are easily convertible for trolleys. If you are a growing City you will first use batteries, then if you get a particularly busy area you can have them charge as they go and even operate 24/7 while charging. Once the network gets large enough they should be replaced with articulated and/or DD busses that have small emergency batteries if they have one at all.

Two and a half hundred is something a native English speaker would ever say. I like it and I’m going to start using that.

Great way to travel!

Several trolleybus routes can share the same corridor on busy streets, which makes the investment better. There is only one issue: if diffrent trollrybus routes split at intersections, the cables can get very complicated. A solution is preserve the cables for the main line and remove the else. Routes on the brach line is required to cross the intersection using backup battery with poles down. This can ensure the main line routes run without slowing down, but branch line routes will need an additional stop to reconnect the poles to the cables. This is a trade-off.

"the overhead wires could look out of place around historical architecture" Yeah, Brad's Ford F250 and a four storey parking garage would look way more in place

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

That was comparing trolleybuses and battery buses, Brad's Ford F250 is out of competition :)

I my city we had before neoplan trolleys which was preatty big,articulated ,and recently they change all of them with polish solaris small troleys

Great video and I fully agree with your conclusions. With a smaller battery required by the trolley buses for limited off wire-excursions, different chemistry might be employed that is not focussed entirely on maximum capacity/kg; some of these alternatives have better charge cycle life, can charge quicker and are less prone to fire than typical car derived cells. I noted a few years ago that Moscow made the mistake of abandoning what had been the largest network in the world. Their hoped for total replacement by battery buses has proved over-optimistic and diesel vehicles are now being used in many cases. Quite insane, like some other recent Russian decisions!

Porque no los dos? Why not both? A city in my metro area (Gdynia, Polan), has had a working trolleybus network. They bought several trolleybusses with batteries - to allow for lines which only have partial coverage.

if you need to move 1500 people per hour (point a to point b) use bus(capacity 120) . if you need to move 3600 people per hour use trams or articulated buses (capacity 300 with 3 cars). but if you need to move 28,800 people per hour use the metro (capacity 2400 with 8 cars)

@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter

11 ай бұрын

You skipped 7.200, 10.800, 14.400, 21.600... ;) For 30k a full metro is overkill, AGT or monorails are more economical to build and operate, and a higher frequency is better for passengers than higher capacity lower frequency trains.

@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257

11 ай бұрын

@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter or we call that LRT

@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter

11 ай бұрын

@@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257 sure, if you don't mind a higher cost and higher noise of the rails.

@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257

11 ай бұрын

@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter where you life men. Cars are a source of air pollution and noise pollution

Also in Spain we have trolleybuses. For example in Castellón de la Plana. Modern and confortable.

Martha's Vineyard is electrifying their busses, but using inductive chargers in the road along a couple streets.

Cool video, although some of your information about batteries is a little out of date. Modern battery technologies are both more energy dense and less reliant on things like cobalt. Also worth noting that when batteries reach the end of their life, they are usually converted to large batteries for the home (like the Tesla PowerWall) where they can go on serving useful lives for many, many years.

Trolley busses do not rely on batteries , which do not require Lithium and other minerals . the minerals are being mined and create a lot of pollution . Trolley busses also can be fed from a variety of sources generating electricity

5:22 I didn't know Solaris made trolley buses 12:45 What's brand is that?

@cityforall

11 ай бұрын

It's also Solaris

@etbadaboum

11 ай бұрын

@@cityforall Ah but of course! Thanks. Good for them.

Excellent presentation. However, there is one statistical mistake. There are about 350 trolleybus systems in the world, of which about 250 are in Europe. I don't think there are any systems that have closed in the 21st century, except Moscow and Wellington. However, in the same time, there are a few new systems, including Prague, that have opened. Another thing that can be mentioned with battery electric buses is that in many jurisdictions, the passenger capacity is severely reduced because of their weight.