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Triloading locking HMS carabiners, often used for masterpoints would be sweet. Like the petzl attache, BD rocklock etc.

@kevinheinrich8443

3 жыл бұрын

This!!

@timt1519

3 жыл бұрын

Also a comparison between big carabiners and smaller ones; my guess is bigger one loose comparatively less strength..

@MrPacobolo

3 жыл бұрын

@@timt1519 smaller shapes with same stock thickness are stronger, less leverage

@henkfermeul3720

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. Nobody triload small wiregate pear carabiner but with an HMS, people feel probably more safe to do it.

At 5:10 Ryan seems surprised that the sling on the quick draw which is rated to 22 broke at 20. This is because the direction of the tension isn't aligned with the tension on the Dyno. To to work out the real tension you need to do Pythagoras

@JJ-qx9wz

3 жыл бұрын

The angle between the two quick draws is a bit over 90°. So both draws see 70% of the downward force, that is, a force of about 14kN.

@JasonMinahan

3 жыл бұрын

"Do pythagoras"...Kinky

@cruesavage5456

3 жыл бұрын

Also it looked like the draw started to fray on the sharp edge where the gate area was

@christianbulow2854

3 жыл бұрын

It seems like the load on the Quickdraw itself is uneven. Looks like the angle shape of the carabiner puts most of the load on the edge where it starts to break.

@shadiester

3 жыл бұрын

@@JJ-qx9wz I measured the angle to be 98° between the carabiners so a force of ~15.4kN each

I'd like to send you some carabiners that have been left out over the ocean in Northern California for about 6 months. They're crusted over with salt and don't open. It would be a good test to see how much strangth is lost when leaving aluminum carabiners as leaver biners on the coast.

@maximilianpierce5115

3 жыл бұрын

aluminium should be pretty good as only the surface oxidizes they even make boat hulls with bare unpainted aluminium

I've got to say, this is one of the most informative channels in my feed. Some of the questions you ask have been bugging me for probably 20 years, and finally! Some answers!

@originalzo3873

3 жыл бұрын

Hes amazing right?

As a tree climber we rig pieces of wood down from trees in residential areas using some of the equipment you test and climb on them too obviously. Your tests are very helpful for people like us. Thank you.

"I'm going to have to figure something else out." Translation: "I'm going to grab 2 big soft shackles."

Careful of the hearing damage my friend. The ringing will just keep going one day and itll never stop

I mean, it kind of makes sense the triloaded breaking strength approaches the crossloaded strength with increading angles. All triloading does is keeping a crossloaded carabiner from aligning itself.

I am climbing in trees and rarely use these carabiners. I would love to see how tri- or screw lock carabiners perform

@niknik0815

3 жыл бұрын

would very much appreciate that too! I started using tri-locks only in Highlining as well, that way I can feel super safe being attached to only one biner somewhere. Still always have two for most occasions, but especially in a rescue I want to be super safe going out on the line with my personal anchor and having two tri-locks there makes me be more at ease. They are a bit tricky to use in the beginning but once you have gotten used to them it's easy and in our city more people use trilocks than the simple ones.

@ALRinaldi

3 жыл бұрын

Regular locking biners or an ANSI biner? I want see both!

@camerondorning7722

3 жыл бұрын

Tom I am climbing trees daily. I've had the best luck with rock exotica pirates at 28.14kN

@aggamemnon666

3 жыл бұрын

Can't beat a bit of three way action! Can't wait for the drop tests.

@buttonion8322

3 жыл бұрын

I’d love to see some steel carabiners used. The new petzl Vulcans have a 18kn gate

Would love to see this test done with a triangular quicklink and a "petzl ring open"

you guys are posting almost every day. Keep it up!

Thanks for this episode! I would love to see the same test on screwgate- or save-biner, as this is a more common climbing-anchor scenario. Donation is on the way ;-)

I was always curious about why we use a big carabiner for a master point sometimes when we know we are not supposed to load it triaxially. Great video Ryan!

@naturarum

3 жыл бұрын

same question! I’m guilty of some light triloading, nothing close to even 5kN but still…

@niknik0815

3 жыл бұрын

The 5 ton steel trilocks are so bomber, I would triload those up to 5kn any day, though it would be interesting to see when thouse would break and especially interesting if for those the triload is better on the wide side than on the narrow side. (My Industrial Climbing Trainer always said it should be the wide side, of which I am not so sure anymore after watching this video...

@conchosewing

3 жыл бұрын

yeah, great question! whats the purpose of HMS carabiners then :D cuz they look so tempting to triload :D

@EverettWilson

3 жыл бұрын

@@conchosewing Munter hitches.

@MegaCbgames

3 жыл бұрын

@@EverettWilson the name actually gives the answer. HMS is an abriviation of the german word for munter hitch. The bigger carabiner is nessesary in order for the hitch to turn around.

Loving this. Between folk such as Richard Delaney/Ropelab, Delbert Hall and your good selves there is all the information that anyone who works at height, has fun at height, does anything at height needs to know. Or rather NOT know....🤘🤘🤘 Thanks for everything you do.

This is very informative. Super Channel! Spreading knowledge about safety is a noble endeavor. Kudos!

thanks for the test, comment to support the channel

This channel should be way bigger bro you got some serious chops i appreciate all the information i used to be an antenna tech and this channel makes me miss heights i hate ladders but i always always had faith in my double ropes good work carry on sir🖖🏾✊🏾💪🏽💪🏽

Good stuff! Thanks for the awesome vids!

I subscribed! I am an old man with old man problems, but watching your videos lets me escape my difficult life if only for a few minutes. Thank you very much for posting.

Thanks for your hard work

Excellent Channel! Good stuff. It would be nice to see tests like this comparing different angles, Longer angles with the tri-loading test. You had some pretty radical angles there, pretty steep. Also compare, in the same video, a pull test with no tri-loading, straight along the spine, and then Tri Loading. Then compare the difference. This is the first video from your channel I have seen.

Very interesting!!! I think most would think to triload a carabiner on the wide side. Looks like the two strands need to be position on the narrow side. Contrary to what I would have done... Thanks Ryan for all that you do for the community. I am certain you have saved some people from having a bad day dude. Cheers!!

Great video!

@ 4:56 u break the quickdraw on the sharp edge off the inside oval carabiner. And it saw ~30 KN. 20 kN on the scale 50 and 50 deg between the quickdraw and the scale. so 20/cos(50)= 31 Kn. that is more than the mbs of 22kN

@darkstepik

3 жыл бұрын

is math ???

@jonaskreiner4864

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. In this case you are not considering the angles. Same reason a 80kg highliner puts way more force on the achors due to the flat angles

@mickey_rose

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but it should be half of 31 right? Since the 20KN force is shared between two vectors? So I got 15.5KN per dog bone. But the sharp edge and uneven loading of the webbing may have been the culprit.

@niknik0815

3 жыл бұрын

@@mickey_rose I am no pro on this, but the rule of thumb is: at a 120 deg angle you see 100% of force on both anchors. It is hard to tell which angle this is exactly, but roughly 120 deg seems right to me. Which means each of the bones would see around 20kn and the sharp edge kills a lot of mbs there. If it is 90 deg you have 71% of force on each anchor, so your 15.5/dog bone at 100 deg seems reasonable. With the sharp edge that is actually pretty decent.

@adamwilson8559

3 жыл бұрын

@gerwin gbon is correct. That angle will give more than MBS on EACH dogbone, and it makes sense that the bottom dogbone failed first since it was loaded over a narrower section of the biner, concentrating the load to a smaller area of the nylon.

great work! always interesting. thanks

Very cool video. Usually when I see triloading happening people tend to put two opposing gates carabiniers. It would be very cool if we could see if this leads to a more safe breaking load zone :)

It would be great to see triloading on lockers. That’s probably one of the most common mistakes in climbing that most people don’t even know about! Plus it’s probably more dangerous than the people who do know about it realize. Great vid as always

@joestevenson5568

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t think its as dangerous as people make out. The worst case is that you will get the crossloaded strength of 8kN, which is a pretty spectacular fall. Obiosuly you want better, but this is an unlikely mistake to kill you.

Now that you have some karabibers without gate you can test them with let's say open gate! Thank you and Bobby for everything you do! Greetings from Austria.

I've been curious about this one for a while!

DROP TOWER!!!!!!!! Can't wait.

around 7:35 ish you ask why the pear or D shaped carabiner breaks to one side - It's my understanding that in a D shaped carabiner the spine or major axis bears a majority of the load - in an oval it's shared more or less. thank you for making and sharing these video's

I think the reason that putting the two draws on the narrow end of the carabiner was stronger than on the wide end of the carabiner has to do with how the spreading action effects the gate. On the narrow end, spreading the carabiner maintains the gates closure and therefore it's strength. On the wide end the tiniest bit of flex makes the gate come open, and that makes the device much weaker.

That one Quickdraw was experiencing more than the 20kn on the linescale because of the lateral component of the force. The two quickdraws are pulling against eachother as well as against the hydraulic cylinder

Interesting findings, thanks…

Literally wondering if you had a video on this the other day, then you release this...get out of my brain

@HowNOT2

3 жыл бұрын

Google knows you better than you do ;)

Nice! Kinda all makes sense considering what the cross loading values for carabiners are

What do you do with the busted gear? I have access to a testing lab and would love to be able to get some hardness tests done on the treated aluminum after they get broken. I’m curious about how the material properties change with an older carabiner with more load cycles vs a newer one.

The dog bone was at an angle to the carabiner, that means it was tensioned more than 20 kn (the force recieved by the carabiner when the dog bone break). No wonder it breaks even tho the mbs is 22 KN. I'm not bright enough to calculate it in my head yet too lazy to write it down. 🙈🙊

@joestevenson5568

2 жыл бұрын

You need the angle to calculate it anyway, which we don’t have

at 4:54 you can see how the dog bone broke. One side of the eye was taking all the force, so that tore, weakening the whole thing slightly. I think that's why it broke lower.

I have never thought of climbing or highlining nor will I ever, I probably exceed the maximum weight limit at 275 on a good day LOL, but I have been watching all of your videos because they are extremely interesting and presented very well! Please keep up the good work. Also I checked the link for shirts but I did not see the one you were wearing in the video. Is that one available anywhere? I really like the small logo on the chest with something on the back!

When that dogbone broke, the tension on it was actually closer to like 25kn, because of the angle to the bolts

@3:27 u can see the QuickDraw started to cut on the square edge side of the oval biner..... that means it didn’t actually broke at the 20ish kN mark but actually got cut..... maybe the QuickDraw could stand untill 22kN at a round edge....... just my thoughts...... keep up the good work man.....

You should use eye bolts instead of hangers on your rig. You can then orientate them to keep tape sling's flat instead of twisted and the bolts will be stronger

Topic Suggestion: The various tape/cord knots compared i.e. tape knot in webbing, tape knot in cordelette, and the same with double fisherman's, and any other knots used to make a sling out of cordelette or webbing, such as the European DK, I've even heard of people using a figure eight. Bonus question is it stronger to tie a loop in cordelette and a loop in webbing then hitch them together some how (tie through, girth hitch, carabiner) or stronger to join them directly with a knot?

Drape a beach towel or packing blanket over the parts to keep bits from going ballistic. Won’t be as good on video, but will prevent shrapnel.

How's that different from using a BFK with two anchor points? An oval carabiner would work better if there's no other option? Should a dynometer on each anchor point as well as load side?

Being a hammock camper, i can understand how things are breaking at less than MBS.

How does the breaking force compare to off-axis MBS for those carabineers?

I think that if you are slackening the takeaway is USE STEEL BINERS, if weight on the approach is not a problem. If its multi pitch climbing, use different biners for anchors than for runners.

I would love to see some in depth analysis of the angles in anchors.

@HowNOT2

3 жыл бұрын

We are editing a video about American death Triangles and the forces they see depending on the angle vs anchors with 2 legs. We have enough dynos to do follow up videos uf there is enough demand.

Would you (or have you) cover span load calculations?

Hello i was wondering if you had heard of Ninja foot ascenders and what you thought of them thanks

I gotta say this channel has made me a significantly safer climber, from the scared shitless first couple outings to hearing the infinite wisdom "If your scared when climbing there's probably a very good reason and you might die " , so I try not to get scared for any good reason . That said as a pure top-rope-solo climber I'm not really sure if using two non-locking opposed quick-draws hooked on to a figure-8 bunny ears knot about equalized for where I repel off and anchored on trusted bolts done by some local legend is a good reason to be a bit scared and I should really prioritize getting three lockers and a sling so I can just make a sliding X and know I'm actually equalized and locked in no matter where i fall. The prusik I've learned should be a Jammy and not a hollowblock since i could shock load it , and the prusik should be replaced with a rollnlock or MT to be nicer to my rope but i think as long as I replace the hollowblock with a Jammy, tie safety knots on the grigri line as i ascend, and importantly trust my anchor I should be safe climbing as hard as i want. Yeah your right I gotta fix the system asap, since not going out isn't gonna happen what if I just fucken took the time to thread through and just tie a regular figure-8 follow through onto one or two of the bolts provided no sharp edges keeping it super loose so i pass a coil of rope for the follow through and just played on that with back-up knots in case somehow I do something cool and fall breaking the hollowblock that snaps from one too many catches , my feet hit the wall for just a second as the force is transferred, flinging myself upside down and the rope slides through the grigri stopping on a safety knot . That should be the worst case scenario assuming the grigri doesn't decide it's both our time and just fucking explode but I'm not climbing subzero that's about the only case i could see that being even really possible so it should be fine. But alas that anchor might prove worse due to hot spots created on the rope because it's tired into a right angle. Yeah i guess i just fuckin need 3 lockers and 1 sling minimum along with back-up knots on the grigri line then I'll have basically no really reason to be scared I think ( provided no ledges and that getting a broken arm or losing an eye not something to be afraid of simply something to make you more like Odin ) .

Are you gonna be cross loading them aswell and see if they hold up to their crossloaded mbs? and how about loading while the gate is open

Definitely three axes of loading on a complicated shape. Stress state should be a gradient of tension and compression with a little shear along the main members. Performance measured is more about the bending moment e.g. applied bending moment due to force on the large end of the binner at the gate. The take away is that binner geometry is not well designed against opening modes and this is why the open gate and minor axis ratings are ~8kn.

I think the strength rating to compare on a triloaded carabiner would be the side loaded value. In that case the carabiners mostly broke above their rated values.

Would be cool if you can get one of those NASA carabiner we see using on spacewalk. I'm wondering if they are stronger than climbing ones :) no gravity there, but security is also a big thing. Who knows

What about a master point carabiner like a petzl William. I used it wide side up several times and seemed to be real strong. According to your tests, I was wrong... I'd like to find out!

Would be curious to see a break test of a big HMS. Ive seen a lot of people thinking that they are better for biaxial loading, as they have a much bigger side where you can fit spansets, but it is not correct as they're not meant for that, kind of expect what's going to happen but would be nice to see it. thanks for the content. are you gonna break test ET?

@freezkates

3 жыл бұрын

Slqcktivity did this test compared to oval carabibiners and it was much more useful than this video as there wasn't such an extreme angle. This video was basically just Ryan breaking the gate with that extreme angle.

I also feel like with misuse, you may not die taking if it takes 10kn, but how many 4-5kn loads does it take to significantly weaken that carabiner?

Ringling Bros. Hair flying act incident was caused by tri axial loading of a steel caribiner

Oval on the dogbones, can see about 5:01 the dogbone breaks along a potentially sharper or more angled edge of the carabiner, alike being cut, then the rest fails. Possible reason for the below mbs.

The reason the webbing broke in the second test is because when you form a bridle the angled tension defrayed the strap. The steeper the angle the worse it gets. At the angle you had those the strap may have actually been closer to 40kn of force on it when it broke, but you wouldn’t get that reading on the dynamometer because it’s not on the bridle leg.

Would be intresting to test this on something like a dmm boa that is designed to allow you to have about 2 clove hitches on it.

@joestevenson5568

2 жыл бұрын

You wouldn’t be triloading the boa though because both cloves will be pulling downwards along the strong axis.

Here before the Hoodwire army

Oval shaped carabiners are designed to better withstand triloading, that's why they are used in caving for example.

Mechanical Engineer here. That quickdraw that broke when the linescale said 20kN (5:00) has some interesting math behind it. Let's assume that each quickdraw takes 1/2 the load. That means the quickdraw broke while holding 10 KN, right? Wrong. Those quickdraws were loaded at maybe a 60 degree angle from straight on, just guessing. The linescale was measuring the straight line load. To find the load on each carabiner we need to do trigonometry and find the hypotenuse of the force triangle. If it was 60 degrees off the vertical, the actual load was 10/Sin(30)=~20 kN per quickdraw tether. So, still under MBS but maybe not as bad as it looks if you assume each was taking just half of that 20kN total load. When you did the "super triload" with the tether going like 70 degrees off the vertical, each tether would not have been exerting 13.8kN/2=6.9kN on the carabiner. If they each took half the total load, actual load is: 6.9/Sin(20) = 20.17 kN from each tether! That biner had much more force on it than the linescale said. The angle of each tether from the vertical pull axis of the linescale is critical to understanding the actual load on the tethers and the biner. A protractor placed over the tether area in the camera shot would help, if you ever do this type of test again.

Re dogbone breaking well below MBS - it appears to have torn from the left, on a less favourably shaped part of the caribena near the nose.

What I love about this channel so much is that everything I learnt in theory when training as an adventure guide I get to see for real here. It gives me confidence in gear and comfort to clients

Have you ever tested carabineers connected directly to carabineers? (metal on metal, it's usually considered unsafe practice) It would be interesting to know whether it's weaker when making small extensions on an anchor or lazily connecting quick draws quickly making an extended draw or personal anchor system.

@joestevenson5568

2 жыл бұрын

Who considers metal on metal unsafe? Have they not seen a chain before?

How about back to back... trying to keep the gates opposite? Would this yeald double the strength of a single?

Please test rings and other shapes of carabiners

Really informative tests, makes me wish I had a breaking table. There is a test I’m really curious about. I am a rescue systems instructor for California State Fire Training. In different classes we cover back tied or tie back anchors using a couple different systems. Either a full length 3-1 or a modified loop knot truckers hitch. Sometimes I get questions from students that I can’t give specific answers on because there isn’t any information just speculation. Those questions involve using an actual truckers hitch, without the tied loop or carabiner and also the use of a continuous loop or voodoo loop. Of course we don’t teach or use either of these in any rescue class but I am curious how they would compare in strength to the accepted 3-1 tie backs. Thank you again for doing what you do…

@HowNOT2

3 жыл бұрын

Not quite visualizing what you are describing. Seems like it would be simple and interesting to test. Do you have photos? Ryan@slackline.com

@maxwellmark

3 жыл бұрын

@@HowNOT2 Yep I’ll get some pics to you.

I have tried to find those black diamond Oz/hoodwire carabiners everywhere it breaks my heart to see them destroyed 😭😭😭😭

Try old ropes vs new ropes, mfr, nfpa, and OSHA say all soft goods must be retired after 10 years. Does the strength really deteriorate over the life of the rope even if not used and stored properly for the 10 year life span.

It's been over a month now? How's Bobby, is he getting better?

Here’s the thing-and this may explain why your draw seemed to break under MBS-it’s difficult to say with certainty because I’m seeing this only on camera, but the angle of your anchors look to be wide enough that they’ll see more than the total load. Certainly they were on the orange 26 kam MAD Rock carabiner you broke “at the widest triload possible“. To do this properly will be pretty difficult, because you’d need a dynamometer on each leg, and in the interests of consistency to the extent its practical (or desirable) the angles would need to be as similar as possible. Also thanks to you (and Rachel’s content!) I’m looking into caving! So caving gear tests would be rad. Maybe throw in an Omni next time you do biaxial tests? Would be sick.

9:13 I would call that over 100% because the carabiner is given a side load of 10Kn.

You should build a plexy glass lid to put over the crank machine so u dnt have peices filling like shrapnel lmao

Great video, The 1 thing I noticed was that the carabiner lock was the first thing to give way in the slow motion video. Then the rest of it broke do to shock stress. Maybe not saying this right because I have never did any type of climbing that would require safety equipment. To me it looks like the wire lock is the low number here. If anyone can explain it better I'm all ears.

@codohundo

3 жыл бұрын

No you've got it right, you'll notice those carabiner are shaped so when loaded properly (two loads, not three) the loads are close to the spine, that way the load has less leverage on the gate side of the carabiner and so it can be designed weaker i.e. lighter on that side for a lower overall weight. Some carabiner are designed so the load is centered and in those ones they have a more substantial gate.

Hi, guys, can you please test double bowline on Dyneema loop as it's used to attach the loop to harness for abseil and is supposedly better than other methods, but that's just a theory.

@johngo6283

11 ай бұрын

Done! It broke around 20 kN.

@olegx.8173

10 ай бұрын

Wow, man, thanks for the information. The number sounds good to me. Did you test it yourself or there's some video on KZread?@@johngo6283

Here’s an interesting observation I made on the second test where the dog bone broke at 20….kN. It was sharing the load with the other dog bone so it actually broke at a much lower force than that…. I can draw you a diagram based on the forces and theoretically tell you what it broke at but it was honestly closer to 12kN That’s a bit concerning in my opinion..

Try to cover the area around the testing ground with a curtain. This way you won't have to look around every time for the braking components.

Check out the gate opening on the QuickDraw at 4:06

Lots of comments here about HMS screw gate testing. It’s been done. Here’s an article that talks about some of the studies and results. www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/lets-talk-about-off-axis-carabiner-loading

we should do a collab. You in utah? Ive got a couple of ideas. :)

@HowNOT2

3 жыл бұрын

hmu at ryan@slackline.com

спасибо большое за труды , но где же треугольный майлон рапид в знаменателе ?

Would a fall give 10kn of force?

@serges201

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe FF2 on a grigri. Most falls are under 5 - see kzread.info/dash/bejne/n2yumMOdddTHf9Y.html

why not use quicklinks instead of soft shackles? seems like it would load the biner more “precisely”, when they break it’s hard to understand what role the amsteel plays…

I would like to know if carabiner on a carabiner is weaker than a carabiner on a textile (quickdraw assembly for example)

Not that bad all things considered

Gate cut it like butter

0:52 .. is that E.T 🤣

@HowNOT2

3 жыл бұрын

Yes

I would love to see if aluminum gear looses strenght after shock from being dropped on hard surfaces? 😵🤔

@vitinholr

3 жыл бұрын

He made a video about this some months ago, search on his channel

Let’s ask the important question. Is that E.T. in the background at start of vid? 😂

Have you considered putting a sheet of acrylic on top of slacksnap? I thought maybe it helps preventing the fragments from flying that far, but maybe it will also get scratched way too easily to be worth it.

Oh I almost forgot... neeeeerrrrrrrrd lol

Poor soft shackles getting destroyed

So future video: Let's chemically treat slings/ropes and see what happends.. Like to see washing powder, gasoline, maybe burn them a little in a fire place, spill some beer /and/or coke on them, pee on them (this have been done before by BMC)... What else? Food preservatives? Cooking oil? ^^