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You need to test bolts that have been cleaned with ACETONE. I am a boat builder and we never epoxy without a good cleaning it is paramount to good adhesion.

@HowNOT2

11 ай бұрын

That would make for an interesting experiment. Thanks

@bradley3549

11 ай бұрын

I haven't seen many cases where the failure mode was loss of adhesion to the bolt like in these tests. Usually either the epoxy fails or the substrate fails. That's true both in natural stone and concrete. I always assumed the epoxy was creating a mechanical key into the hole and around the anchor and thus cleanliness was less critical than say in a boat where delamination due to loss of adhesion is a real risk. But with the way these just slid out - cleanliness might start to matter! Worth testing. Though at that point, the argument would be whether these are just a bad design. If they were fully threaded like a bolt they would almost certainly fair better regardless of cleanliness. I'm also wondering if the thick hot dip coating is not bonded as well as a thinner plating on these samples? Thick galvanizing can tend to be a little... flakey? Just like deep fried chicken. EDIT! Should have kept watching, not the coating based on those last tests! I was surprised to see the threaded didn't perform as well as the galvanized.

@darthtony123

11 ай бұрын

Jim titt's site mentions that the adhesive strength between the glue and the bolt is assumed to be zero. They rely solely on the mechanical keying to hold the bolt.

@ionstorm66

11 ай бұрын

​​@@darthtony123epoxy dosent stick to smooth stainless or zinc very well. Rough is key

@getahanddown

11 ай бұрын

100% agree with this. Glue prep, temp and humidity requirements aren't there for fun

Galvanised steel bolts have been prohibited by the European standard (and cannot gain the UIAA Safety Label) for many years now so no certified bolts are available and their sale in the EU is illegal. Stainless steel bolts are supplied chemically clean by all the manufacturers I know of but what climbers do later is anyones guess. However we know from experience and testing that resin adhesion is very variable over the lifespan of a bolt and therefore for certification it is considered to be zero, the retention of the bolt must be purely mechanical in grooves or similar. A fairly common problem is to find bolts which come loose as the rock heats up in the sun, the resin is not flexible and releases it's hold on the bolt as the hole enlarges making it imperative the retention is purely mechanical. Extra roughening of a stainless bolt is destroying the passive layer protecting the bolt which (at least some) manufacturers make extra efforts to create. Galvanised bolts create appalling visual problems in some rock types, particularly limestone where the zinc leaches and runs down the cliff killing the bacteria which gives the darker colour and leaving metre-long ugly white streaks below each bolt.

@MrHassancehef

11 ай бұрын

Very interesting (as always) Jim! never heard of that "rock heats up in the sun" enlarging the hole leading to lost of adhesion, did you have some reference/ link about that? What would be the range of expansion? Some glue ins have knurling, do you think that those knurl would be deep enough to ensure retention of the anchor after such a phenomena? Did you encourage to drill with an angle (to reduce solicitation on the glue) on your products? White stain under the biocide zinc of zinc plated bolts is terrible, do you know the name of that darkening bacteria (I have always considered it was micro lichens).

These galvanized bolts look to be hot dipped galvanized by the performance they get. The layer of zinc is thick and very well bonded to the steel in this process. The zinc acts as a sacrificial anode and corrodes instead of the steel, so you will see some white dust on them or they will be fully rusted or nothing in between. Zinc is one of the metals that is used to protect steel in marine environments like this and when put on thick like this, it works really well.

Rui and David are good teachers! Nice episode.

@r.r3296

11 ай бұрын

Thanks man! It’s an honor to colaborate with the awesome hownot2 team :) glad that you enjoyed!

Great info! I knew there was a difference in the amount of zinc on electroplated vs. hot dipped galv, but that diagram was extremely helpful in knowing how much more zinc is in hot dipped. Also, it's not just limestone that'll destroy stainless quickly near the ocean. Developers in Hawaii have found that the basalt in HI will destroy stainless nearly as quickly, so most routes out there are equipped with Ti now.

extra important infos: they are name cosiroc, cosiroc stand for "Comité de Défense des Sites et Rochers d'Escalade" a french association from 1962 who popularized sport climbing/ and good bolting practice, mainly thanks to Daniel Taupin who even wrote a book of how to bolt safely (good to know when you write a bolting bible 😛 ). In France, in the 80's some crag where bolt with glue in made with eye bolt from telecomunication pole, (made out of wood, they were replace by concrete pillar at those times), those bolt are directly inspired of that. Those are also know as tige de tendeur (eye bolt), BB (brouet badre), broche FFME, and are now sold/manufactured by french manufacturer Tecforge/colin millas they have deep groove wich is not the best for glue, but in the 80s some were installed with concrete, so those grooves are mandatory in that case. 6$ today, bu few years ago, it was 3 times cheaper (when not free). and for belay station it's way cheaper (zinc chain and maillon are way cheaper and easier to find than SS) you have to drill groove as for the fixe tensor! In some case they have less impact that the shiny stainless! they are forged, I think the other only manufacturer who forge the glue ins is petzl (batinox, collinox) forged by wichard I guess? the main downside is: in grey limestone, zinc will act as a biocide, kill every lichens under it, and leave withe line under the bolt!

@HowNOT2

11 ай бұрын

Can you email me and tell me where I can find Daniel Taupin's bolting book? I can't seem to find it. Thanks! ryan@slackline.com

Thanks Ryan. The section where you hammer home how shortsighted it is to place inferior bolts in order to save $5 is so important. Even with a well funded titanium rebolting project in various countries, the time required in labour is a major factor that slows down re-equipping. For areas where SCC is an issue I’d much rather climb something that is more sparsely bolted with titanium than ever wonder about what kind of degradation has occurred to anything made of steel, galvanized or not.

@MrHassancehef

11 ай бұрын

this is 5$ in 2023, few years ago it was much more, cosiroc were 3 times cheaper (when not free), and titanium was way more expensive than today (and hard to find/ often esoteric). TItanium is needed is some sea side area, but not all of them ! Titanium is cool but is not perfect either, for example it wear much faster.

i don't even climb, and I find this super fascinating!. I've spent endless hour watching your channel. The climbing community surely thanks you for your research.

Today's video was a mindbender. Thank you for taking the time to test and figure out what's right

Can we get some thumbs up for Rui's epic dreads?

Very nice. Thanks for doing all of this type of stuff.

Thank you for the material science lesson on stress corrosion cracking.

If you didn’t already make one, a video about dirty rope strength would be amazing: rope saturated with dirt, mud, dust, sand and see how breaking strength is affected.

Great episode !!!

When our fire station was remodeled and expanded, we had anchors placed in the concrete block walls for our training and practice. Several of us looked at the glued in, galvanized anchors and shook our heads. Didn't much trust it at first but the contractor said that it was stronger than other options. Being high angle rescue, we were used to using "bomb proof" anchors such as large steel I-Beams and such. Glued in bolts were hard to trust but nobody died in our training!

3:01 just a quick tip don't weld galzanized steel if you are friends with your lungs or enjoy living

@sonofnone116

11 ай бұрын

Or do, if you wear a respirator.

Ryan in a puffy is a way better way to measure temperature than fahrenheit 👍 keep up the good work

"... for the temperatures we're in, which is Ryan in a light puffy" I want a HowNot2 themed weather app that only reports the forecast in what Ryan would wear that day.

Thanks Ryan. This is my comment to support. I'm doing the things!

in the construction industry, safety requires us to have an anchor that can withstand 5,000 pounds. most of these far exceed that number and yet seeing them pull out somehow makes them seem weaker

That ISC Iron Wizard biner is giving me a lot of confidence. I use mine in the trees all the time. I get a tickle telling folks that its magic that holds me up there. The bolt built Kokopelli is way cool Ryan! My grandma would go bonkers for that thing.

@tompiperson4793

9 ай бұрын

I came here to find out what that beaner was. Thanks

As mentioned before degrease the bolts before installing, but i also say sandblast the stainless bolts first to roughen them up.

In Safety circles this is called "Normalisation of Deviance". It's what caused Space Shuttle Challenger to explode . When someone/organisation takes a shortcut that deviates from accepted safe practice and gets away with it, the practice is repeated because "we did it and nothing happened". However, if it is done for long enough something WILL happen and sometimes people die.

In the 80’s in Poland climbers use car putty to instal diy made eyebolts from construction wire bar(rebar). Time to time they even use tin can scrap to wedge bolt in hole

i would like to see some break tests for various personal tethers. i.e connect adjust, camp swing, kong slyde, twisted daisies, etc

after sailing and living on a boat for 11 years in hawaii i have to chime in. 316 stainless is what most people recommend for all stainless parts on the boat. it definately holds up longer than 304. but neither last as well as good bronze, tho thats another story and probably doesnt apply well here for climbing bolts. buttt I have noticed and must agree that even 316l stainless the problem with it especially in enviorments like out here and near salt anyway, crevice corrosion can definately happen. sometimes you have to look very carefully to spot a hairline crack and ive seen part fail that otherwise should have held a persons weight easily going up a mast due to a tiny hairline fracture. and also ive seen old boats with ancient steel wire rigging where it was fully rusted and and an old boat builder was about to sail it across the pacific to vancuver island. he had a lot of people telling him you cant go with that forestay its rusted through! and i clearly remember him saying,"wow u mean u can actyally see through to the core of the wire?" lol... anyway he was a extremely smart guy and i learned a lot from him. his name was noah coincidently :) anyway anyway he sailed of solo and made it to vancouver island in the old wooden boat. hoy hoy was its name i believe. but anyway my point is through the years ive seen a lot of high quality stainless fail do to hairline fractures and ive cute open a ton of flaked out rusty old galvanized chain and shackles that definately had no galvanizing left on it to be surprised of the beautiful steel just below the surface of it. they seem not to hairline and crevice corrode like the 316L... not really advocating for them as climbing bolts, just thought id spin some yarn since its 3:35 am over here and was in the mood. anyway thanks for all the info as always guys.. take care reece, bruce, and bean

You should get in contact with some of the guys from Arbroath, Scotland. All our climbing routes are over the water on our cliffs which are made of sandstone, pretty famous place.

you should go test bolts in hyalite canyon's famous "mud choss" someday. some of it is actually rock, but sometimes its just a joke the kind of rock the bolts are put in. I heard stories of people like conrad anker putting in super long bolts to contend with the terrible rock quality.

The main thing I learned from this is that I need to contribute to the local bolting fund

On trawlers and the like you don't use stainless steel shackles and turnbuckles, etc for critical load bearing fasteners. You use galvanized steel or painted high tensile steel fasteners because you can see the corrosion visually and change them accordingly. Stainless "rots" and you can't actually see just how weakened it is beyond some surface staining... but inside it's all "rotten".

You should test using sandpaper to rough up stainless and other smooth bolts before gluing.

@MSPatterson

11 ай бұрын

I was coming down here to say that. Though I think I'd use an abrasive medium wheel like a silicon carbide paint stripping disc, compared with your typical abrasive discs or flap wheels in a couple different grits. It's probably not important at all to go from ~30kN to ~50kN for most applications, but it certainly is interesting.

@getahanddown

11 ай бұрын

I was thinking a squash in a press to add some texture?

@RILEYLEIFSON_UTAH

11 ай бұрын

Sandpaper wouldn't rough it up near enough. (If you're wanting to rough it up, of course.) I'd take a cutting wheel on a 4" grinder and cut That seems like you'd get sooo much more bite on your bolt. *EDIT...Rough it up.

@radiodemon5774

11 ай бұрын

If only there was someone with a machine that could test all this.

@MSPatterson

11 ай бұрын

Keeping in mind that the difference in _texture_ between galvanized and stainless bolts was sufficient to produce ~20 kN of difference (give or take groove geometry differences), I don't know that actual machining of additional grooves into the bolt would be worth the effort compared to hitting it with a very coarse flap wheel. Cutting new grooves into the bolt also has the potential to act as focal points for stress to concentrate and cause cracking. Probably not important, but over the lifetime of a bolt, potentially an issue.

What is the belay device or rope locking devise used at about the 3:30 make. The orange one. Thanks

Man, those first bolts in photos are some of the few on this channel I would not whip!

FYI hot dipped galvanized nails hold WAY better in wood than zinc, stainless or uncoated steel.

Id love to see you test Australia carrot bolts

Could you please pull test the equivocation hitch ?? Thanks!

This makes me wonder if the stainless steel, 17-4PH would make for a better bolt material in these conditions. This is a precipitation hardened steel and not austenitic as mentioned in the video and I believe it is cheaper. Still, the plated bolts may be the most practical option.

The international climbing community seems so wholesome!

Love that dog😄 needs more camera time "helping" you.

The zinc can leach creating horrible streaks after which there won't be any sacrificial protection. The re-bolting economics discussed is missing other cost factors so titanium would be the better option longterm.

Vamos! 💪

I saw lots of these bolts in coastal areas and I always wondered cause they look pretty solid to me but there's no rating on them. Also at 12:45, that dog was taking a shit.

What about type 3 weathering steel or something similar?

Ryan, do we know if the different glues can be affected by close to the ocean environment?

@HowNOT2

11 ай бұрын

I haven't heard of any issues but that would be a very probably and interesting rabbit to chase.

I love when there’s 2 numbers like 12kn then 5kn finishes it I’m like I woulda survived 😂😂

Okay, my last comment was slightly negative, I just want to say you do so much for the *extreme" community as a whole and I appreciate it a lot.

Minor quibble with the Portuguese video, is to either use wind shields on the mics or record an over track later - the noise makes the accents even harder to understand. The other thing to think about is evolution of bolt technology; just a decade ago SSteel was generally seen as the standard. Will Ti or heavy galvanized steel be replaced by even better choices? Cost factored over time is valid only when looking backwards; extrapolating into an unknown future life of new materials is a bit of a dice roll, something many sport cliffs are now dealing with in massive re-bolting campaigns where the wrong picks were utilized a few years ago.

Puxxxa Setúbal, até partir 😂

I love the comment when looking at the very rusty eye bolt, “ no sane person would climb with it” looking back on all the ice climbs I’ve done. By that definition I’m not a sane person then. Just don’t fall.

@r.r3296

11 ай бұрын

Still i believe you are a sane person man! Dont take the coment literally 😅 in other words, it’s basically so rusty that becomes obvious that we shouldn’t climb on it, due to the fact that its resistance and original quality is far from being there, if we like some risk in our lifes, there are for sure many ways to achieve it, climb on them could be just one more eheh 😜 but still it may hold xD it may not, but definitely the idea is that people should be educated to avoid them. Of course we could climb on something new and shiny and still have some rock/ice fall, there’s so many factors ahead of us, in this case is about something we could control with just some simple visual evaluation. Stay good! 🤙🤙

Stainless steel has a chromium oxide layer which rapidly forms on the stainless steel surface when chromium reacts with oxygen. The oxide protects the metal from further corrosion but is difficult to bond to. An approach, which would work in the field, is to wet sand the surface after coating it with epoxy.

Nowadays corrosion is often not a problem, but the wear of bolts by rope - grinding. More and more people are climbing - even pulling the rope over the bolt causing wear. Unfortunately, there are quite a few idiotic climbing schools that teach lowering directly through bolts instead of abseiling, often seen in Germany. So the more a route is climbed and some idiot is lowering directly throught bolt, the bolt will wear out. The solution is to install quick link or carabiner - there, however, the electrical conductivity between two materials can act... Corrosion is quite a complex issue. Briefly: the biggest problem is with the expansion bolts. Glue in the bolts has the inside protected by the glue. Interestingly, we were tearing apart visibly rusted expansion bolts and many held up to more than 15kN of outward pull = the corrosion acted like glue. In the past, setting rings into Czech and German sandstone rocks basically worked on the principle of corrosion. The circles were inserted into the cut hole, and the hole was sealed around the shaft with slices of lead. The rest of the hole outside was covered with concrete mix. These rings served for 100 years! Corrosion inside acted like glue over time.

The best bolts I find for rocks unde4 high loads is the ones for powerpoles ther about an inch in diameter and 12 long

@BurchellAtTheWharf

11 ай бұрын

7:59 you forgot to say that the bolts are split bolts

In volcanic rock above the sea the same effect appear i see that in Martinique

Wpuldnt those metals rust witg time?

I always ruff up stainless before I use epoxy to attach it to anything

Look into how the zinc galvanize works its pretty cool. It uses a type of reverse electrolysis to help slow the metal from rusting if the coating is broken and on minor scratches it can repair itself. I've got a lot of love for it after fighting rust on classic car's for years

Crazy that you survived. Anything less than 80 Kn is just unacceptable.

Anchor failed? I lost lol

i would be careful in a cinnabar mine breathing that dust in.... just to be extra safe. that dust could be real toxic

I think anchor bolts are best spun counter clockwise while setting because that draws the epoxy into the rock/foundation. Noticed at 14:50 it was clockwise.

I wonder if anyone has tried making their own aluminum bronze so they're strong but they're not brittle and won't corrode

Just go bigger and leave the rust alone lol it’s just a protective coating

Can I have a digaridoo man made from broken bolts too 😂

It's called stain-less steel, not never-stain. ;)

Can we just be impressed at these non native English speaking climbers handle of not just conversational English, but technical terms as well..

Not sure it’s a good idea to weld galvanized steel figures, health wise, but great video

@jimyeats

11 ай бұрын

You’ve got to weld a lot of galvanized in a really enclosed space to get metal fume fever. Alternatively you can just clean the galvanized area off, or wear a proper mask.

Use duplex stainless Steele bolts. Type SAF2205. EN 1.4462. UNS S332205. No problem with chloride ore MIC.

🍀🍀

I thought he had a rope on his shoulders And it’s his dreads

@markifi

11 ай бұрын

people tell me it's rude to test the minimum breaking strenght of dreadlocks

The guy with the dreads reminds me of the agro character in Ted Lasso. Not in personality, but he looks and talks like the character.

Why not use Roc-Loc resin cartridges. They are used in coal mining to hold top. You can cut the to length. The glue goes in, you spin the bolt. No mess

I think titanium only lasting four times longer than galvanized steel is fundamentally flawed.

@Jefferson-ly5qe

11 ай бұрын

I suspect the mechanical wear would actually be the main factor rather than the chemical attack

@HowNOT2

11 ай бұрын

I was being conservative. A galvanized bolt lasts 20 years and a titanium bolt 200 hypothetical years. We have a "few more years" before we will have real life evidence of that. If ropes are not rubbing on the bolt (a wear component) then it isn't going to wear out as long as the cliff isn't eroding around it.

3:47 - Another benefit of using the cheaper, shorter lived bolts is that if there's a new revolutionary product that gets developed which is suitable to replace it, rather than having to wait 50 odd years you can do it in the next iteration of rebolting it, so a 10-15 year lag at most.

I will look forward to the day where you get a loadcell I don´t have to be ancious about breaking.

Portugal caralho!

comment

@markifi

11 ай бұрын

reply

Paint the bolts.

> forget to account for Portuguese economy

I cheated and watched a bit, but mid 30s seems to be super average enough for the sort of anchor we're talking.

I shouldn't watch this only because it'll only encourage you to keep using clickbaity, non-descriptive titles

@Isaac_L..

11 ай бұрын

I'd agree if the video sucked.

@HowNOT2

11 ай бұрын

I want to title it "Galvanized climbing bolts are working better than 304 stainless???" really badly but it literally gets 5x more views being vague. That's why I started the email newsletter. I remove the middle man (the algorithm) so I don't have to have titles like this.

@domotime19

5 күн бұрын

@@HowNOT2Don’t stress it. The content is always top notch and that’s what really matters

And how much is your life worth.

C'est le rocher qui est mauvais, pas les points...

Pff

it sounds like the manufacturing of the Spanish SS bolts are at fault. There should be no micro channels.

@IcEcho

11 ай бұрын

Look up "pitting corrosion", "crevice corrosion" and "stress corrosion cracking". What you call channels are created by the environment, not a manufacturing defect.

@MrHassancehef

11 ай бұрын

@@IcEcho they were helped with very poor manufacturing, like terrible welding, leading to tension residual stress. 304 chains of a famous spanish brand sometimes fail even far from the sea...

The TITAN guy said he broke the rules and got away with it.... 😂

Looks like cheap, badly manufactured "stainless" steel is the actual problem here...

@MountainMullet

11 ай бұрын

Kinda. Fixe definitely had a problem with that historically, but in the case of Cabo da Roca, Tonsai, and other places there's a sulphate problem which eats up the steel. Dave Reeve's hypothesis is that it's Sulphur-Reducing Bacteria that supply the sulphate ions from the locally available sulphur, which in turn likely comes from nearby underground sources (like volcanoes) and explains why this doesn't happen in all sea cliffs, only some.