I was not expecting such a nuanced video from The Rock, of all people. 🤔

@jcspoon573

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know, he's Pacific Islander/Black, and there's a big difference to how people feel about each in their respective cultures. Then again, I was shocked how much hair the Rock had managed to grow back. Must be all that cod.

@JUNO-69

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely didn’t smell what he was cooking

@NINI-xc6my

3 жыл бұрын

well..thats why he is going to be the president.

@markfoster1520

3 жыл бұрын

But our man, T1J, is Black American......that's got to be a different experince than others.

@jcspoon573

3 жыл бұрын

@@markfoster1520 Well, "The Rock" is also American, I was just making a reference to his ancestry. And ... the joke T1J made.

Theory: all the Beckys simply evolved into Karens

@mamatony8931

3 жыл бұрын

omg im early hi queen

@squashfei8907

3 жыл бұрын

woah hiiiiiiiii

@chey_mz

3 жыл бұрын

Would love to hear your take on transracialsm Natalie

@twoohoot

3 жыл бұрын

If Natalie said it. Must be true. After the ritual of marriage Beckys turn into Karens at midnight.

@user-ng8do4io7p

3 жыл бұрын

@@chey_mz She mentioned the Dolezal case a few years back in her short video essay "What is Race?", a transcript of which can be found on her official website. The essay is a general commentary on the various aspects of race as a concept, so the issue is discussed very briefly. Natalie, similarly to T1J, rejects the legitimacy of the gender-race comparison proposed by Dolezal while posing a few interesting hypothetical questions to highlight the nebulous nature of racial identity.

Belonging to one identity but passing as another one can actually expose you to a lot of prejudice you might not otherwise encounter. If people think you belong to their group they feel a lot freer to make derogatory comments about other groups in front of you. You may get the privileges that come with 'passing', but there's still a cost associated with that. I've experienced this personally in a minor way myself- I was born in another country from the one I live in, as was my mother, but I don't have an appearance, name or accent that stands out. As a result I frequently have to listen to people telling me their negative views about immigrants and the country I was born in. It's not a big deal in my case, but it means I do get to see an ugly side to people I might not otherwise. I've known a few white-passing mixed heritage people, and the effect of hearing people's overtly racist comments about groups their families belong to could be really emotionally taxing on them. People assuming you don't belong to your family because your skin tones differ can also be humiliating and alienating, and is a common experience for people from mixed-race families.

@Zero_Chaos

3 жыл бұрын

You mention "passing" as another race is has a cost and can expose you to prejudice you wouldn't otherwise experience, but those things you mention are what privilege from "passing" is. You're not being exposed to more prejudice this way; the people around you wouldn't be any more or less prejudiced in their beliefs. But instead you have the privilege of experiencing that prejudice not as a target of their oppression or hateful views & actions, but as a percieved member of that "in-group". In these cases where they don't know your background or family, well, why don't they know that? If you told them, would you be worried about facing those same prejudices from them? If thats why you don't tell them, and chose to experience that emotional taxation instead, then that choice is an option you get to have but others in your ethnicity don't - a privilege of "passing".

@molliesteffi7337

3 жыл бұрын

​@@Zero_Chaos I am one of those who 'pass', and I have never once thought about it from this perspective. Thank you for sharing this.

@suddenllybah

3 жыл бұрын

@@Zero_Chaos eh, being able to pretend racism is a particular way because you don't experience the casual racism shown in the in-group is at least a benefit for sanity. Learning how the sausage is made is not a fun time.

@MaryRevery

3 жыл бұрын

Similar experience to me being an immigrant straight-passing genderfluid bisexual woman. People assume because of my lack of accent that I was born in the US and, as soon as I do something that reveals my lack of a shared cultural background, people interpret that as me being "weird" or "rude" rather than foreign. Same when I mention opposite sex partners. Straight people around me assume I'm straight and conclude that my short lived hetero-passing relationships are due to my "romantic instability" or "bad attachment style" instead of the fetishization and increased violence that bisexual people experience.

@jaydezifour988

3 жыл бұрын

Yo, I can tell you stories... White kids LOVE saying the N word.

I remember the line "Race doesn't matter, except it does matter." Race is almost Paradoxical in that it doesn't define you are as a individual, but will play a major part in defining.

@karaiakauma3179

3 жыл бұрын

I've heard that same line too and I have been told that sadly it does matter to whatever situation is applied; personally, i have found it to be confusing and frustrating..

@QuintessentialWalrus

3 жыл бұрын

Can't remember the author but I read a book excerpt in college that put it this way: "Race isn't real, but people think it's real, and that has real consequences."

@jenm1

3 жыл бұрын

It's just the same concept as if we started discriminating based on the size or shape of belly buttons. They all have the same function despite their appearance, and play basically no role in moral worth etc. but we could arbitrarily assign it value and thus marginalize people for a completely made up concept.

@millie209

3 жыл бұрын

When I heard "I don't see color" I'd interpreted it as "your race will not effect whether or not I treat you with kindness and respect" and i think that's what it should me, but considering how many people have been shamed for celebrating their culture, I understand why that isn't the connotation that sentence has for most people and that's why I don't use it.

@ironmagma

3 жыл бұрын

That statement means nothing since it’s self-contradictory. A better way to say it might be that life is experienced as a combination of your internal stimuli and the stimuli from people around you.

I'm a trans guy, and one of the most interesting questions my therapist made was "If you were on a desserted island, would you still want to be a man?" And for me, it was an automatic "yes". While my experience of gender suffers from the way I was perceived before transitioning, it was something that was still a part of me - even when I'm the only one looking. I guess it could be an interesting question for these transratial people. Would they still want to be of that race, even if no one was looking - or is it more about the comunity built around that race?

@TheMysteryDriver

3 жыл бұрын

I'd want to be darker, less sun burn.

@Kate-ms2mn

3 жыл бұрын

Also the counter point to that article he didn't make: if trans women can forsake their trans identity at any time and revert to the privileged postion of being men (lol, who actually thinks that anyway), then how does she reconcile that presumption with the existence of trans men?

@luciel7751

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kate-ms2mn I guess the argument would be that "of course trans men would want to be men, they want the privilege that comes with it so they wouldn't go back to their former position"

@luciel7751

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheMysteryDriver I think regular exposition to the sun can make your skin darker and build your skin's tolerance. Though it can be harder if your skin is very sensitive. I wouldn't recommend it anyway, sun makes the skin age faster

@hyperioff

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kate-ms2mn most articles and debates around trans people absolutely forget about trans men, and many arguments would be solved by remembering that we exist lol

I didnt want to comment before finishing the video but I was itching to so bad because I getting antsy about you not bringing up adoption/blended families (edit: and then you did, so I'm glad). I'd really like to hear your take on that more. My cousin was adopted and it was a huge shock when he was discriminated against for being a dark skinned young person for the first time. He legit didn't know why he was being treated differently because he was always surrounded by his white family. Then, he got old enough to go out and about on his own and everything changed My Granddad also has tanned really deeply and red his whole life and has a larger nose. He's 97% white or something according to those DNA tests, but he still got called the n-word and the r-word a lot growing up because of how he was percieved by the town. That's a big part of why my grandparents moved when they were old enough. You don't always get to take your white identity back by clarifying. He was just called a "lying n-word" when he explained what he was and that just made things worse All that said, I'm a huge fan and I feel like your videos make certain issues easy to comprehend for people that haven't even thought to ask themselves certain things. I know you've made me think a lot

@T1J

3 жыл бұрын

the adoption subject is definitely worth it's own video!

@user-mi5xq8zj7u

3 жыл бұрын

@@T1J I’m white and I have friends with either biracial or adopted black kids and I really want to one day foster to adopt too but the thought of it terrifies me a little, probably because I haven’t educated myself on the subject enough yet. Fostering locally, you don’t really get to choose who enters your home, what baggage they may bring (which they inevitably will) what color they are or if I do them justice or if it’s even possible to do so at all but I know it’s badly needed where I live. Maybe giving them a shot at a better life is worth it? Given your your position and your audience, it might be a good idea to encourage your audience to foster to adopt locally and do it right?

@majorhoolahan

3 жыл бұрын

Foster kids often have/do live in Hell on earth for various reasons, but inhumane family situations are unfortunately common. They can definitely have a lot of baggage (thanks to the trauma), but being the person who gives them sincere love and a functioning environment can do enormous good for them. It's not something everyone wanting a family can handle in the end, but I always encourage looking into it.

@ritawilbur7343

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-mi5xq8zj7u I just want to clarify that when fostering, you can indeed say that you will only consider children of a certain age, race, gender, etc. Also, when they call you about a placement, they will tell you the age, gender, race, and circumstances that placed the child in foster care and ask if you will accept that child or not. Because it would not be okay to place a child with a family that has reservations about caring for them. And at least in Texas where I am, if a child has really great medical needs or severe trauma from severe abuse, they are only placed with people who have been specially trained for that level. I encourage you please if you have any interest to learn more about foster parenting! There is definitely a great need, and I think many people are interested, but also have a lot of understandable fears that cause them not to explore it. Please explore it, and then make an informed decision! It's perfectly okay to say, "I'm white and don't feel that I would be able to provide the care that a black child will need," and so to restrict it based on race. That does NOT make you racist! Alternatively, if you decide you are open to fostering/adopting a child of a different race, please understand and take seriously your obligation to provide for that child's racial identity needs.

@user-mi5xq8zj7u

2 жыл бұрын

@@ritawilbur7343 I’ll probably end up adopting one or two black kids simply because there’s a larger need, maybe even older kids. I have a handful of friends who have. Some have been accused of doing the “trendy” thing of adopting transracially. But part of me just wants to normalize the practice. This shouldn’t be a novelty to anyone. And yes, I definitely have a lot of homework to do before I do anything!

I'm a biracial, white passing person who is korean through paternal lineage so I still have a korean last name. I understand the base argument that my experience is largely that of a white person and don't generally disagree. But I often tell people I get to experience a really weird kind of racism because essentially my last name 'outs' me as not white. I don't get a lot of the outright shit of racism (especially during this whole pandemic situation I have never been more aware of how being white passing can protect me). But I've still had people ask me if my dad wants me to get a PhD because he's asian. And people commonly asking me if I'm korean. So I dunno. I guess the point of this rambly thing is that I think its more complicated than white passing people have the same experience as white people. I think there's more grey in there. (I did like the video overall, just figured I'd add some personal experience based nuance)

@aussieevonne7857

3 жыл бұрын

Hi. Just asking a good faith question. How do you feel about people asking if you're Korean? (You mentioned in your comment that sometimes people ask you that. I gather from your description that they're going off your surname.) Do you feel like it's a natural part of conversation, like people getting to know each other (like asking someone with the surname O'Reilly if they have recent Irish history)? Or do you feel it is more insidious and uncomfortable? I'm an Australian, of Irish parentage, living long-term in The Netherlands. I find it normal to listen out for accents and, if I'm having "get to know you" small talk, to ask about someone's provenance based on accent, or indeed name. I get asked about it myself. Curious to know how you feel about it. Thanks.

@luckysmokerings666

3 жыл бұрын

@@aussieevonne7857 I think its a mixed bag sometimes. I don't generally mind people asking me if I am korean based off my last name because usually its asian/korean people who are asking (and usually they are excited about me being korean). I don't find it offensive or anything like that, mostly it just creates some awkward situations depending on context. Like I've had someone come up to me and just say 'your grandfather was korean' which is factually correct, but it was like after class and I wasn't really looking to talk about my heritage with two random people.

@digitalmimi

3 жыл бұрын

+

@aussieevonne7857

3 жыл бұрын

@@luckysmokerings666 Cool! Thanks for the great answer.

@Tera_B_Twilight

3 жыл бұрын

In fact, what I've heard from other white-passing ethnic minority creators, is that you can end up in this frustrating no-man's land where they are not fully accepted either by their white peers OR their minority community, so yeah, a very different experience.

Even white passing people are usually “provisionally” white passing and the privileges associated can be taken away instantaneously. Especially with an unambiguous last name. Some people assume I’m completely white, but the moment that they hear my last name, which is very obviously Arab, their attitude towards me changes. Some people read me as ethnically ambiguous and I still get the “what are you?” Or “but where are you REALLY from?” I also think of the studies on the effects of names on resumes etc. Also, one thing that stuck with me was a conversation with my mom during the Trump administration, who said, if Arabs are put on a registry, do you think their going to care that you look kind of white?” The effects of systemic racism are still relevant, as well as the epigenetic marker of stress that are also still passed down.

@TheMysteryDriver

3 жыл бұрын

On the US census Arabs/Persians are considered white.

@akeiltheseal

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheMysteryDriver honestly, i think 9/11 solidified in white peoples minds that arabs are different from their idea of "white." Many Hispanics are white as well but many americans dont consider them white due to their culture.

@thankukorea

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheMysteryDriver and in other countries census might not, I think Canada with a large immigration population Arab has been separated out.

@haileys5224

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheMysteryDriver that means little in the face of wide scale propaganda surrounding “the war on terror”

@jellevm

3 жыл бұрын

'Mimi' doesn't sound particularly Arab to me. 'Digital' is a strange first name though.

Always thought it curious how no one’s ever referred to Barack Obama as white, even though he’s 50% of European descent and was raised by white side of his family

@StarlightShooting

3 жыл бұрын

It's funny you say that because I remember being a kid and thinking of him as black. Now that I'm older, I honestly cannot help but seeing how white he looks. In other words, I am conscious of his whiteness equally as much as his blackness, just as I see half-half white-asians.

@AndorianBlues

3 жыл бұрын

I remember when he was first running for President some people insisted on calling him biracial instead of black. I think once you get successful there's an instinct from some to downplay blackness

@twebster179

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndorianBlues or to project our own issues on to that person.. it's ridiculous..

@LoisKl

3 жыл бұрын

Paraphrasing George Carlin: Barack Obama is openly a white neoliberal, who happens to be black.

@thevampirefrog06

3 жыл бұрын

Tessa Thompson told a story in an interview about how she tried to complete the trifecta of joining a racial harmony club she helped start in high school as a black student one year, a Latina student the next, and a white person the third year. Her parents are black Panamanian and Mexican/white, so all were valid, but apparently they wouldn't let her join as a white kid (the interviewer says she laughed while talking about it).

No joke Rachel Dolezal was a teacher in my elementary school and was a very nice person. I think she had good intentions but the optics were just too bad.

@cbowd

3 жыл бұрын

She has bucketloads of trauma. Her backstory and how she got to where she is actually makes quite a lot of sense--I just wish she was getting help instead of doing what she was doing, much less being in the news for it. Her parents need to be arrested.

@doodleprophet

3 жыл бұрын

I was always curious about how well she performed as chapter president of the Spokane NAACP. My impression was that her identity was coming from a sincere place and that her history of trauma created a need to disassociate from being white.

@twebster179

3 жыл бұрын

@@cbowd l'm not familiar with Dolezal's trauma... ?

@cbowd

3 жыл бұрын

​@@twebster179 Parents were evangelical conservative Christians who adopted her black younger siblings and physically and emotionally abused all of them, including racism with the adopted kids. Her older brother molested her and younger sister and the parents punished them for talking about it. She was mostly left to take care of her younger siblings as a preteen and teen and ended up doing research on black history and culture and haircare as part of that. They fled the home as adults and she took them in and later legally adopted them to get them away from her family. Part of her parents finding out about her and going to the news about her pretending to be black was as an attempt to smear her while she and her sister were engaged in a court case against her brother for the sexual assault. He's the only one not estranged from them.

@cbowd

3 жыл бұрын

Don't get me wrong, I think she's pretty selfish and appropriative as fuck, and it sounds like people had issues with her leadership in black orgs even before the truth came out. She uses black culture and history as escapism because she sees a parallel between racism and familial abuse, and she said trying to figure out how to empower her siblings/adopted kids about being black was one of the few bright spots in her childhood. But I never see people talk about where this mess came from. People don't do shit like this when they're mentally well. And it really bothered me to see her parents acting like they have no idea where it all came from, when their daughter and all of their black kids won't even talk to them and they're doing it so two of their kids never get justice for being molested.

I was a white kid who grew up in the projects of LA. I grew up around black folks and the black culture. I was given shit and harassed for my skin, of course, but also had found many friends who didn't treat me any different for my skin. They're now people I call family. In fact they even made jokes calling me "light-skinned," not white. My point in stating this is that I understand the feeling of finding a home and a sense of identity within black culture while not being black yourself, like Rachel. But at the same time I didn't choose to find a home or a piece of identity there. It moreso found me, I suppose. Growing up in the culture, around folks who were accepting and friendly towards me and willing to look past the color, gave me a culture to connect to when I didn't have anything else to connect to. I am a white fella, I don't believe my experience changes that despite all the jokes my friends made. But I do relate more to that culture than even my own biological heritage because it was the only culture I was able to experience and felt like I belonged in, even if my color made it hard for me to belong.

@adammartinelli8274

3 жыл бұрын

Haven't watched the video yet, but I just had to leave this here - if you haven't seen the film Blindspotting, watch the film Blindspotting. One of the two protagonists has the exact same experience as you with regard to racial identity. And the guy who plays him co-wrote the film and has also lived that experience. The film is about his identity and how it interacts with the identity of his friend, a Black man who doesn't identify with a lot of parts of his own community, and how they interact with the changing racial profile (due to gentrification) of their town. Even if you have no personal connection to it at all, it's an absolutely incredible work of art in its own right, but I just had to recommend it to you in particular because of what you said about your identity.

@ThrottleKitty

3 жыл бұрын

Very similar to my experience, even down to the same state... except I'm a trans woman! lol I've never felt the need to be black to engage with or play a part in black culture. Where as, unless I live my life as a woman, I feel distinctly rejected from both male and female groups. I'd be stuck in between. Being a trans woman is the only way to be accepted as either gender.

@MelodiousThunk

3 жыл бұрын

Walrider213 and Throttle Kitty: it would make perfect sense if you identified as being _culturally_ Black American - that's no different to the fact that some people born/raised in the diaspora may identify more with the dominant culture of the country they live in than with the culture of their heritage (e.g. my parents were Nigerian, but I've spent my life in England. A lot of people with this experience are culturally much more English than Nigerian). If Rachel Dolezal had stopped at identifying with Black American culture, the controversy over her identity wouldn't have become international news! Also, Adam Martinelli is right - Blindspotting is a great film.

@Tamales21

3 жыл бұрын

I know a white guy who was raised among and as a Mexican. To me he is as Mexican as I am.

@unapologetic7281

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tamales21well ‘Mexico/an’ is a nationality and not a race. Most Mexicans are white already or partially white with indigenous ancestry. It’s just their culture which isn’t Anglo-Saxon white like those in the US.

Transracials actually mean children who are adopted into families that have a different race than them...So right now it's hard for them to use it because of them

@LeeMilby

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it's a huge issue for transracial adoptees community (TRA's) right now. It's literally what our whole lives are called and has been for years. But now whenever we say what our identity is, people think it's something totally else and we get unfairly judged for it. It's so frustrating.

As someone who grew up in Spokane, it's totally believable that people would pass her as black. It came as no shock when the news originally blew up about her.

@jennybloom9107

3 жыл бұрын

Currently live here. POC here are scarce and I can totally see how she passed without question.

@Vanalovan

3 жыл бұрын

I thought I picked up a bit of a smile when he named Spokane

@thelegalsystem

3 жыл бұрын

@@jennybloom9107 Eastern Washington is beautiful, but boy there are a lot of racists and white supremacists out there :(

@maiarustad5062

3 жыл бұрын

I live nearby, and I’ve always found it so strange how the places right around Seattle are so devoid of any Black people, despite Washington being seen as so progressive. There were maybe a dozen black kids in my high school, and like five in my middle school. Every other demographic seemed pretty evenly represented (take that with the grain of salt that I’m a white person who has never lived anywhere else, so my perception of that is almost definitely skewed), but there were so few black people.

@thelegalsystem

3 жыл бұрын

@@maiarustad5062 if you look up the history of the foundation of Washington and Oregon, there's a lot of white supremacy in the history. Oregon outlawed slavery because they didn't want ANY black people in their state.

Great video. Just a quick thought, though: when you ask what the difference is between "white passing" and "white," it seems like you're presuming that the white passing person will be received as white in all situations. But this may well not be the case: consider, e.g., that if they have darker skinned parents, then as children they were probably treated as non-white when they were in public with their family (and, of course, their friends and family may treat them that way until this day). Or consider a white-passing person with a traditionally Afro-American name -- a fair-skinned "Jamal" may get treated one way by store clerks, but they're going to hit similar racial hurdles when sending their resume out that other Black folks do.

@nebula1oftheseven488

3 жыл бұрын

Yes very good points.

@m00c0w

3 жыл бұрын

Very much agree. It was weird to me that T1J didn't seem to acknowledge that while being "white passing" does have real consequences, it is only based on how you are perceived by others and does not reflect your personal lived experiences that someone would not be able to know about simply from a "white passing" appearance or name, which was essentially his argument for why identity is not chosen by others

@melelconquistador

2 жыл бұрын

Good lord, I remember the few times Strangers and even school staff would interfere and ask if the man next to me was my dad.

@El.Matamoros.

Жыл бұрын

What about black passing since I have a couple black passing relatives what's the argument with them.

My dad's side is Iraqi Kurdish and I am completely white-passing. It is difficult to feel so disconnected from my heritage, while also having to confront the reality of the many privileges I am afforded. "Race" is just skin, and unfortunately, our skin affects how we are treated. The challenge is accepting that while retaining some sense of cultural identity.

@Delinae

3 жыл бұрын

To me your case sounds like an issue of the category of American whiteness not really accounting for ethnic differences and immigration history. If we're talking about race, I would say you are white; there's no passing involved. But there's many kinds of whiteness / Caucasianess that isn't Anglo-American, it's just they are a minority in the US. I'm Canadian, and almost all my white friends growing up with first generation immigrants from Eastern Europe or the middle east. I feel like critical race theory in the US would say that by virtue of their race, as a whole they will not be burdened with discrimination in the long run. But for that generation, the fact they are not ethnically Anglo-American still makes a lot of difference for their experience.

@Jemdawg1000

3 жыл бұрын

@@Delinae Yeah I say “passing” because it helps me feel less stripped of my Kurdish heritage. Especially nowadays, people see “white guy” and just instantly assume they have no knowledge or personal connection to POC experiences in the US. And a lot of one’s experience is informed by their family history (my father and his siblings were refugees), and there is shared trauma associated with that too. They were heavily discriminated against when they got here. And those experiences they had shaped who I am and how I see the world too.

@puddingcake39

2 жыл бұрын

I completely relate to this. I’m half Azerbaijani and half white German, and I’m pretty white-passing

Where I live, we don't even use the word race bc here, the word itself is seen as racist. You would never be asked to state whether you're black or white or latino or indigenous or whatever. It always baffles me when I see that being a thing in the US.

@Lennon6412

3 жыл бұрын

I always find 'latino' such a weird concept when I watch US tv. As a european, I just think aren't these people just white?

@TahtahmesDiary

3 жыл бұрын

@@Lennon6412 What you are noting is colorism that keeps darker, Indigenous features off the air and centers the whiter, more Spaniard features. They are not all white but you wouldn't know it from media.

@Lennon6412

3 жыл бұрын

@@TahtahmesDiary Latino people generally have Portuguese and/or Spanish ancestry but in Europe if you are from either of those places then you are white. It seems weird that in America there is a big deal made of that. It seems like a primarily American phenomenon, it's not something you really hear or see about in the UK

@benedictdwyer2608

3 жыл бұрын

@@Lennon6412 it’s largely because most Latinos in the U.S. are from Latin America, and because of xenophobia against Latin America, they’re seen as a “other”, and so they get excluded from whiteness.

@xp8969

3 жыл бұрын

Americans used to exclude Irish people and Scots and Germans and Poles and Spaniards and Greeks and Italians and any other European who wasn't a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant from being "white"

I feel like the passing privileged you bring up also has parallels to bisexuals/pansexuals. I identify as bisexual and when I figured out that I wasn't straight really late in life I kind of jumped onto the identity. Thinking back though I struggle to identify with the experiences that a lot of LGBT people have had because most of my life I've both been identified as and felt like I was straight. Probably the main negative experience I can claim that was probably related to my eventual discovery of bisexuality is my personal dismissal of a lot of traits of masculinity in my identity early on which comes with being called slurs and other types of mistreatment, but there are straight men who experience that as well anyway, so i can't strictly identify that as an exclusively bisexual experience. I think a major issue is that when you don't fit easily into a particular category you can often find yourself isolated from most groups of people of "either side" so as an act of self preservation you go with the flow and try to identify as strongly as possible with the stereotypes associated with that identity to be accepted. But that can backfire making it seem like you are invoking a caricature of the very group you are desperately trying to fit into.

@aurawraxd

3 жыл бұрын

With sexuality, there's nothing you necessarily "have" to do to be a "true (sexuality)". You just are. And it's perfectly ok to discover that late and you're valid. I myself am also bi.

@shami5enwow

3 жыл бұрын

Passing as a straight girl has it's benefits for me in that people don't judge me or stereotype me, but it has many downsides in that I may not be taken seriously, or most importantly beautiful girls won't hit on me because they think I'm straight lol.

@andieallison6792

3 жыл бұрын

Saying that bisexual people are just "straight passing" or have "straight passing privilege" is just a run off of biphobia. Having half of your identity invalidated is not a privilege.

@WarpScanner

3 жыл бұрын

@@andieallison6792 Maybe you are right, but I feel like what my life would have been like had bi cultural erasure not been so predominant is extremely hard to quantify (though yeah my life certainly would have been much better as I would have figured things out when I was younger), while the benefits of not getting treated like a gay man by homophobic culture are a bit more obvious. TBH, I don't know that I had firm stance here. I've only realized I'm bi recently relative to how old I am. I just see some parallels from the video and I wanted to bring them up because I thought it might be an interesting point.

@andieallison6792

3 жыл бұрын

@Cassandra Tafoya I am aware that they exist. I am one of them.

last summer i read the paper "Changing Race, Changing Sex: the Ethics of Self-Transformation" by Cressida J Heyes, in which one of the primary arguments about the difference between the two is that *gender is personal and internal, while race is communal and inherited. for example, I am white because my parents are white; I'm not a woman just because my mom is a woman.* she also draws a parallel between the use of transracial arguments by transphobes to shut down progress and homophobes' comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia in order to shut down progress. she does well with separating their "well if you think THIS is okay, then you must think THAT is okay" logic.

@maroontiger1361

3 жыл бұрын

I think your comment really gets at how race and gender work differently that wasn't well explained in this video. Thanks, this is very helpful!

@ritacastagna

3 жыл бұрын

@@maroontiger1361 thanks, i really appreciate that! i definitely recommend reading the paper as well!

@citteh

3 жыл бұрын

I wish I could agree that "gender is personal and internal" but I am largely still discriminated against based on how people perceive my gender. Thank you for the paper though perhaps I will re-evaluate this comment after reading it.

@cleigh3796

3 жыл бұрын

"Gender is personal and internal" Except that isn't true, that's just a reworded version of what transphobes say about gender, used to invalidate transracial people. Race is personal and internal, but racial sterotypes are societal. Just like how gender is personal and internal, but gender sterotypes are societal. Something doesn't have to be inherited to be real. Trans black people are black people. Transracial rights are human rights.

@greywolf7577

3 жыл бұрын

What gender you are is based on whether you have testicles or ovaries. It isn't personal. Gender IS inherited. Someone is female if they got X chromosomes from both their mother and their father. So I don't think Ms. Heyes has a logical framework here.

8:17 In my lived experience, the difference between being White and White-passing is the inherited socio-economic disadvantages that are a direct consequence of a parents' race, as well as bearing the brunt of racially motivated prejudice by small town law-enforcement, either through the experience of your parent, or directly as a consequence of having a POC parent. It's being privy to a lot of uncomfortable conversations, because people feel free to speak without a filter when they don't perceive there to be any minorities in the room. So I would argue that the experience of being White-passing is inherently different from the experience of being White. We kind of exist in a racial void, while simultaneously being subject to external factors.

@suzannah991

3 жыл бұрын

Came here to say this. This is totally true. There are so many more facets to race than how you look exactly. Being white passing=/=white. Especially if some people can clock you. And the moment people find out you're not really white, shit changes. If you say I might as well be white, you are literally erasing my family, ethnicity and culture. Another thing is (and this might be controversial) that you aren't going to get the same true "loyalty" from white people when it comes to the interests of other racial groups. I've found that when it comes down to it, white people will pretty much always think it terms of what's best for them and their group (even the most well-meaning ones), whereas white-passing people will (usually) think it terms of what's best for their more marginalized identity. There's just no comparing being white to white-passing other than in surface level terms.

@TENINCHLUVABOY

3 жыл бұрын

@@suzannah991 it was a dumb term .

@suzannah991

3 жыл бұрын

@@TENINCHLUVABOY which term?

I know you brought it up as a funny point, but you mentioned identifying as The Rock, which reminded me of dissociative identity disorder (and fictives). I don't have DID, so I'm only speaking from what I've heard people who do have DID say. Basically, DID is a diagnosable type of neurodivergence which generally stems from trauma at a very, very young age, which causes their "self" to split into multiple identities, known as "alters". as a method of self-protection. (EDIT: actually, every person starts off with a fragmented sense of identity, and the trauma prevents the unification from happening. See aaa303's reply to me for a thorough explanation.) The collection of alters is referred to as a "system." There can be hundreds of alters within one body, and they can be any kind of person, regardless of what the body they inhabit looks like. Eg. a white 13-year-old female body could have an alter who is a 19-year-old Latino boy. Sometimes an alter is based on a fictional character from a piece of media the system is invested in. For example, one KZreadr with DID had an alter named Lito, who came from a TV show called Sense8. As I understand it, fictives have the memories and personality that the character would have. They know that they come from a fictional character, but they still feel a certain way. Of course, it's not my place to speak on how DID affects these issues of identity, but I do think it adds an interesting wrinkle to the discussion, and I'd love to hear what some systems think about it, if they're comfortable sharing. (And people who don't have DID, spend a little time learning about it by watching KZreadrs who do have it! It's fascinating and they deserve more respectful and accurate representation than they currently get in media.)

@lennonbrooks1083

3 жыл бұрын

This is a very thoughtful contribution. Thank you

@Nemo_Anom

3 жыл бұрын

DID is pseudoscience, just like the repressed memory craze from the early 90s.

@luciel7751

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nemo_Anom How so if people really have these experiences? You'd have to prove that you can manipulate your sense of identity/self in the same way that you can easily manipulate memories for it to be true

@aaa303

3 жыл бұрын

Point of clarification, it's not that their "self" splits, it's that _everyone's_ sense of self starts out fragmented, and only unifies at a certain stage of development. Experiencing trauma before that stage can cause a contradiction between these fragments (e.g. we like this parent because they provide food vs. we don't like this parent because they hit us) that prevents them from ever unifying. Not only that, but the person's fight, flight, or freeze response instead becomes a fight, flight, freeze, or dissociate response, where they may continue to create new alters as a result of stress/trauma for their whole lives.

@a.m.keller3241

3 жыл бұрын

@@luciel7751 I don’t disagree that DID is an absolutely real disorder but I’ve seen this happen in schizophrenic relatives. The self is definitely vulnerable to manipulation from exterior and personal factors. I knew a person who claimed to have alters and was encouraged to “discover” new alters by engaging with forums designed to “help” which really just encouraged further dissociation instead of meaningful treatment. There’s definitely people (not professionals) who treat it similar to that type of memory repression and encourage unhealthy behavior which may fuel existing delusions. It sucks to watch.

The caller really got me thinking about how for black people, there's a language for describing the political and cultural baggage of being a light skinned black person. But amongst white people, our language for describing dark skinned white people is very underdeveloped - at least in my experience.

@charliekahn4205

3 жыл бұрын

To me it seems that the solution to this as of late has been to just exclude them as "brown," a new race.

@ineffablemars

3 жыл бұрын

I have run into some communities that see dark skinned white people as lesser. Specifically Neo-Nazis that see them as below 'white people' but above 'brown and black people'.

@GrrrlStyleNow

3 жыл бұрын

@@charliekahn4205 I've not come across this tbh, 'brown' tends to refer to south Asian people in Britain I think.

@GrrrlStyleNow

3 жыл бұрын

@@ineffablemars Not a surprising attitude from those quarters unfortunately.

@MeowMeow-jj3lk

3 жыл бұрын

@@charliekahn4205 brown has been used to describe south, southeast and some west asians for at least a couple decades now

My understanding of Rachel is that she was the oldest in a family with several adopted black siblings, and as her parents were not exactly the best her black siblings were her only real family. And that really informed my opinion/feelings about her.

@maroontiger1361

3 жыл бұрын

Do you remember where you heard/read that from? I really wanna know more about her upbringing.

@beebalmbadil

3 жыл бұрын

​@@maroontiger1361 I have this understanding of her too. I believe it is from the documentary "The Rachel Divide," still available on Netflix.

@CrazyDot28

3 жыл бұрын

@@maroontiger1361 Cydnee Black did a video looking into Rachel's past/family life that I found really interesting if you're looking to find out more about her

@everythingispolitics6526

3 жыл бұрын

So because she was loved and embraced by her Black siblings, she thought it'd be a great idea to Black fish? That sounds quite disturbing and parasitic and I actually feel quite sorry for her Black siblings.

@ElephanTigeR

3 жыл бұрын

The solution for that is to seek therapy not to cosplay being a Black woman.

15:00 This is exactly where they negative reaction of "blackfishing" comes from. The privilege of being able to shed your black passing whenever you want.

@is44ct37

3 жыл бұрын

If it was permanent would it be okay? Personally I think it would, but what do you think?

@astroblast2325

3 жыл бұрын

@@is44ct37 I'd say no, it's like a mockery of what "blackness" is,and being able to choose your "favourite" part. Culture and community mixed with historical and familial background is not just an aesthetic and cannot be turned into one. I wish I could explain as well as T1J, but deciding to "permanently" change your racial identity just doesn't work. It's still costuming.

@is44ct37

3 жыл бұрын

@@astroblast2325 so I did already make a comment on this video, but I’ll just respond with the comment, b/c I think I did a good job explaining my reasoning. I think you will disagree with me, but I’m always interested in why. Loved the video, but I have to disagree with the conclusion though, because I think transracial people are real and exist. Let me tell a story, a close friend grew up Cuban her entire life with her abuelo and abuela mostly. Her mother is white, but her father is Cuban. She speaks Spanish, has Cuban friends, and looks very Cuban. On her 18th birthday she had a DNA test, and it turned out her mother had cheated on her father with another white guy. She is actually 100% white, and just appears Cuban. She can not “go back” to looking white, and didn’t “shop around” for her identity. She stills identifies as Cuban, because that’s what she is. Is she wrong to identify what she has been identifying her entire life as? In my opinion it would be disgusting for someone to reject her identity, as that would be denying reality as well as just cruel. What if a biracial person suddenly found out that they were not in fact biracial and just looked that way. Would they have to change there identity to match there genetics? That seems absurd to me. If you are biracial, you shouldn’t have to fear changing who you are. Identity is not others to decide, it’s yours! Weirdly you don’t have full control over it either. Your identity can be literally anything that is socially constructed. It can not be things that are not socially constructed: apples, attack helicopters, rocks, or THE ROCKS;) Recently we Learned that race is largely socially constructed, in the same way that we recently learned gender is socially constructed. Ofcourse race and gender are not the same thing, but there is a similarity that matters, the fact that they are social constructions. I think if you focus more on what identity is, it will make more sense. I loved the video, you brought up a ton of interesting ideas! Any responses or disagreements I’d be interested with engaging with.

@girlycat180

3 жыл бұрын

But Rachel hasn’t shed it.... even when faced with intense public scrutiny and losing her livelihood to the point of being impoverished

@astroblast2325

3 жыл бұрын

@@is44ct37 Hello! Thank you for replying so politely. If you actually want to hear my response here it is, lol. It's long and I'm too exhausted trying to think to read through again. Maybe spare yourself the headache haha. in regards to your Cuban friend : race, ethnicity and nationality are different. Being Cuban is not a race, ie. There are black Cubans, there are multi-ethnic, multi-racial Cuban people. There are many white Cuban people (most of Cuba IS white) , and she was raised in a Cuban household. Being Cuban in particular is usually based on citizenship, but in North America I know it's considered more along the lines of ethnicity and familial ties to the culture. Many people identify with their ethnic background despite not having contact with the nations they're derived from (ie. Many Canadians with Scottish ancestry say they're Scottish because that's what their family background is). She may not have grown up in Cuba, but her family background is Cuban! She may not be genetically tied to Cuba but the label "qualifications" isn't necessarily determined by genetic characteristics. I'm biracial! I have a very different relationship with race and identity than those who are mono-racial and others who are multi-racial as well (because there are so many factors that change the way a person identifies when social identifiers were created without you in mind, if that makes sense). I cannot imagine someone believing they were biracial but they really weren't, as it's more likely the other way around would happen and in those cases there is usually a sense of loss or a "missing link" in one's identity due to knowledge of themselves being withheld. Let's say it does happen, however, because I'm sure it has. To the next point: That person is just not biracial. They are a person who for whatever reason thought they were. That's unfortunate and would probably be a very unsettling experience, but they're simply not. They have racially ambiguous features that may serve them better or worse depending on circumstances. Their experiences are in no way erased, they're now just interpreted in a different light. This scenario really needs more context because it's quite odd, but they simply just wouldn't have certain ancestry and that isn't a good or bad thing. If I learned that I was really just white, or black, then my experiences with racism, colourism, feeling left out or questioning my identity are not erased, and I have still faced the burden of discrimination against mixed race/black people, the context is just a lot weirder now, and that's unique to me. A person may not longer "belong" to that community but they have some lived experiences that the community has, that happens. That reckoning with identity could be a loss in itself, but they just don't have the genetic background they once thought. Being biracial is very complicated and an example like that bastarsizes the experiences or multi-racial people. The collective or "usual" experience varies between what races you belong to; the location you are raised in; the social environment; your appearance; if you're in a single parent, blended, or bio-parent raised family, etc. Context changes everything and that's what proves how ridiculous and confusing and evolving race is. It's a very personal experience but certain patterns stand out when under the light of social, political, environmental, and historical attitudes. No one is any less valid in their experiences with identity because it is there's, but when put under the systems/climates mentioned previously certain, more general indicators are important in distinguishing safety and commonalities between marginalized peoples. Race is nuanced and not something I can properly get into in a KZread comment section, especially with an example like the one given, but what I'm trying to say is that person just isn't biracial, however they may have lived the experiences of those who are. If they went through a good portion of their life being told they were something they're not I'm sure that would have more consequences than finding identity in a group you believed you were in. Perhaps they were raised in a house with parents of different races and believed they were biological children of both, some may say that's a degree of the biracial experience and I won't deny that. I won't deny someone finding comfort in a community and welcoming them with shared experiences even perhaps with differing identity marker. Identity is personal and complicated and I think the more we unpack our own then perhaps the specific labels we belong to matter less than the things we share with one another. I do think that in the current age, distinguishing race is important because it there is still systemic discrimination that oppresses certain groups based on racial criteria, and despite one's closeness to certain groups, they are allowed to admit they are not a part of them, but still value them personally. I'm hoping this makes even a lick of sense, as this is all word-vomit going off of my first read of your reply. Again, thanks for being polite. I also think that definitions evolve with time and vary between personal interpretation, so our definitions can differ between each other and may shift with time. I believe the concept of race as it is is already falling apart and dont believe its a bad thing. It was created with the intention to uphold one group, but it's quite clear that as groups mix the ideology upholding racial idealization is faulty and will come down.its a slow dismantling, though, and it has a lot of parts that need a shit ton of sensitivity to do right. I may come back to this to explain my positions better, but I mainly just wanted to answer the Cuba thing,lol. The rest is very hard to articulate concisely.

Most of the time I see people bring up transracialism as a cheap attack on trans people's identities. Obviously those are in bad faith, but when they're dismissed outright I do worry a bit that people outside the discussion that aren't as familiar with trans issues are left genuinely not knowing the real difference as to why one identity is generally accepted and the other rejected. I'm glad to see a nuanced breakdown of why that is.

@ore7699

3 жыл бұрын

Could you elaborate on the difference? Genuinely asking.

@jbark678

3 жыл бұрын

@@ore7699 I could be off here, but I think it's the extent to which outside factors/perception drive/influence the identity and how it's experienced by trans or cis individuals. Gender tends to be described as something experienced internally in a way race isn't. Race tends to be based in how one is perceived and treated, with racial cultural groups forming due to the differences in said treatment and perception. Gender, on the other hand, seems to be a combination of perception and internal experience. I'm sorry if that's unhelpful.

@witchshairlichen

3 жыл бұрын

@@jbark678 Also, I feel it's worth pointing out that trans people's brains more closely resemble cis people of the same gender's brains than they do to their assigned gender at birth. Since I think that sentence is kinda confusing, even to me, who wrote it, let's say we're talking about a trans women named Emily, a cis woman named Robin, and a man named Tim. Emily's brain more closely resembles Robin's, not Tim's. Gender is not just a social construct.

@jbark678

3 жыл бұрын

@@witchshairlichen An interesting tidbit. The difference in "male" and "female" is specifically associated with differential cortical thickness in certain brain regions. "Female" brains tend to have greater cortical thickness around the region of the corpus callosum. "Male" brains tend to have greater cortical thickness within one or both hemispheres (note, this is: 1.On average, fluctuating from individual to individual and 2.Cutting edge research and could be proven wrong in whole or part in the future).

@hatchibyebye

3 жыл бұрын

@@witchshairlichen brains are unisex. No such thing as pink brain and blue brains. It’s a misogynistic meme to excuse the gender pay gap.

That VM hits me hard. I'm half Greek, and constantly get mistaken for Hispanic. On the other end of racism, Ive recently been told I'm not "white enough to be white". Having all European bloodlines, half being Greek, I've felt on the side lines when it comes to racial issues and discussions.

I sort of saw Rachel Dolezal differently after watching the documentary on her. She may be a professional, but her motivation for identifying as transracial really does seem rooted in trauma. Not saying I agree or disagree with what she did, or does, I at least have respect for the fact that she adopted her siblings to save them from abuse. You have a good point that Rachel still has the privilege to be white. I don’t think she shopped around, but more seems to have chosen to identify as black because of the trauma and guilt of seeing her white family abuse black foster children. I don’t think transracial is the right term for her, even if she identifies that way, not sure what the right term is, but she is definitely dealing with some sort of trauma.

@lilicorrea8515

2 жыл бұрын

I think this reaffirms the difference between transracialism and someone who is transgender. Being transgender is something one is born with, not a product of circumstance.

@preternatural3231

2 жыл бұрын

@@lilicorrea8515 I tend to agree, but there's definitely place for nuance. For e.g. the nature of gender dysphoria (discomfort resulting from your gender experience not matching your gender identity) is such that it depends on the existence of other ppl. Would a trans man still want a flat chest if all cis men had breasts? I think it's all very interesting. I hate it tho when ppl use it to disprove someone's gender identity. I'm trans myself and that's not okay. But I'm also a student of psychology, so I really appreciate discussion on this topic

@chisomo8088

2 жыл бұрын

@@lilicorrea8515 oh, but it is

@facelessdrone

2 жыл бұрын

@@preternatural3231 ok, but you're also ignoring gender euphoru. Gender dysphoria isn't the only thing that makes someone trans, if I was born in a land where all cis men had breasts I would still want to change my appearance or the way I'm perceived because of my gender identity. I might not have gender dysphoria in that completely ridiculous and made up scenario, but I would still have gender euphoria, I would still transition regardless of how people perceive me.

@siphomnisi3842

2 жыл бұрын

@@facelessdrone all I can say is just be you. I don't really understand what goes on with trans folks . But I nevertheless view them as human who very much need an equal platform in society.

As someone who gets asked - almost weekly (in weeks that I'm meeting new people) - "What...are you? Like, what's your ethnicity?" or "Where are you from? Like...where are you...FROM?" (and not being satisfied when I say 'Florida') I really appreciate discussions like this. Especially because I'm genuinely interested in learning about other people's lived experiences. Thank you for your take on this! I recently found your channel and have been binge-watching your videos. (As for my answer, I almost always make people guess. So far no one has gotten it correct, but I have gotten a WIDE variety of answers.)

@video_enjoyer

Жыл бұрын

Honestly I don't know how anyone could just ask a person what their ethnicity is, to me that seems like such a rude question to ask someone you don't know well haha

I think this analysis covers a lot of thing beautifully but i think what it does miss is there is a difference between systematic racism and face to face racism. While white passing people may not have the same face to face experience as someone who is not white passing, they still experience the systatic racism. Worse housing/education opportunities, generational and family trauma, discrimination against non-white names ect. I live in Australia where we have many white passing Indigenous Australians due to Australias attempts at genocide through "breeding them out". They aren't less Aboriginal because their ancestors were raped. They don't experience some of the face to face racism because of their colour but do experience so much oppression still. I'm also a ethinicly ambiguous white person and I wouldn't ever claim to be anything other than white based on some people mistaking me because I just don't experience that systematic oppression. I also don't like the essentialism that people continue to uphold. I have darker skin and features from the average white person because there is actually a lot of diversity in every group of people because races are not distinct. Maybe the white guilt in me would like to distance myself from my whiteness but even if there was an ancestor in my ancestry who is not white it wouldn't change my experiences or that I grew up in a white family and am also white.

@DS-wp2dj

3 жыл бұрын

White girl from Melbourne/Naarm here! Seconding all that. And oh the guilty guilty pleasure of occasionally being "ethnically ambiguous"-passing lmao, getting mistaken for someone other than white /almost/ feels like having a culture that isn't land-stealing for five seconds

Non-binary transman here... Sure, I could live the rest of my life passing as a woman to avoid the hate trans people might face, but that would not stop me from seeing transphobic bullshit or derogatory remarks about men or non-binary people. It would also mean I would be treated as something I fully am uncomfortable being seen as - in other words, social pressure is a huge part of my dysphoria and being recognized or "mistaken for a man" is what gives me euphoria. It's not a fun existence "living as" or passing for something I am not - quite the contrary, it can be absolutely devastating for one's mental health. I do not know if someone who would identify as another race would feel the same, passing or not. Not to mention that a lot of trans people who have gone through medical transition treatments, can not just flip back to their assigned gender and be perceived as such with no issue. Commenting not just to add my two cents but also for the algorithm. This was a very interesting one to watch and made me think, which is always a good thing. Really enjoy your takes on complicated issues.

@Hakajin

3 жыл бұрын

That's a good point.

@atdyeam1605

3 жыл бұрын

Pardon my ignorance but how can you be non-binary and trans? Doesn't one negate the other?

@Nemo_Anom

3 жыл бұрын

What other identity on this planet requires others to socially and interpersonally validate you? If you're gay, bi, or lesbian, it just is, and you can either act on your nature or not. If you're a Muslim, you believe what you believe, keep the 5 pillars, and go to mosque. If you're a vegetarian, you don't eat meat. If you're Black, you have certain naturally-occurring phenotypes. Why then, for trans people is it all about external coercion? What other identity is like that? I honestly can't think of one.

@vevhawke5129

3 жыл бұрын

@@atdyeam1605 nonbinary people are generally considered part of the trans label just like in general, so they don't cancel each other out, but for me I consider myself trans and nonbinary because I'm both nonbinary and physically transitioning (hormones/surgery)

@EphemeralTao

3 жыл бұрын

As a non-binary transperson myself (and formerly identified as a transwoman), I understand this very well. I'm currently closeted in my work life, in order that I can actually stay employed (I work in a very conservative industry, and discrimination is rife). Other perceive me as an ordinary cismale, so I'm not directly subjected to the sort of discrimination that out people endure; but I do hear all the jokes, all the threats, all the disparaging aimed at those who are more out. And it definitely is not easy or pleasant.

Do you remember when years ago on The George Lopez show that George had a half sister who was raised by Italians? So she grew up her whole life raised by Italians and believed she was Italian and I guess passed enough to think so. Meanwhile George Lopez looks and likely is very Indigenous Mexican which is a different race and not like European Mexicans. So then his half sister finds out and is crushed that shes “a damn Mexican” which reveals a lot about how much people hate Mexicans and would rather be something else. In the US especially it feels like white Americans prefer discount Latinos aka Italians over actual Latinos - Mexicans. It felt fucked up to watch George’s sister hate that her true heritage is Mexican cause Im a Mexican. Whats so bad about being us?

@suddenllybah

3 жыл бұрын

Reminds me of the ethnicities of the UK and Ireland.

@WhiteChocolate74

3 жыл бұрын

I dunno especially since I'd consider most Mexicans as broadly white

Here’s a question, though: if you met someone who considered themselves “transracial,” and when asked, described their living as a different race in the same terms as transgender people do (that it was to resolve a fundamental incongruity within themselves, and that not doing so wasn’t actually a choice for them), would you believe them? While Rachel Dolezal might not have used that kind of language, someone else could, which would seem to meet the criterion you’ve outlined (doesn’t have the option to change back, feels an otherwise irreconcilable internal disconnect with their birth race). In which case, it’s not that the category of “transracial” doesn’t exist, it’s that we don’t know anyone who fits in it, which are two very different claims.

@asafoetidajones8181

2 жыл бұрын

I mean it's super common in fiction, right? Usually just for a cheap laugh but sometimes with a bit more poignancy. The white mau mau sobbing as he's arrested rather than shot in Bamboozled, j roc in the tpb episode where the rapper from the city questioned his blackness

Your explanations of this stuff really helps me understand others. Differences or not. Thank you

As a trans person, the way you talk about transgender experiences lines up with what I experience and what I have read about other trans people - thanks for informing yourself about that and highlighting the struggles that come with that! Awesome video :D

Another interesting thing about how other people perceive you is that it can, sometimes, depend on who you're talking to. I was born to a Filipino father and a White mother, and how other people perceive me varies. I've noticed that White people don't see me as White, even though literally speaking, I am. But other people of color, especially other Filipinos, don't view me as Filipino, but instead White. Ancestrally speaking, I am both Filipino and White, and which one I get clocked as really depends on the person looking at me. I've even been clocked as races that I don't belong to at all, like Japanese, Chinese, and Indigenous American, to name a few examples, because sometimes people just don't know what they're looking at when they look at me. The reality of the situation, as I experience it, is that our modern concept of race doesn't really account for mixed race and racially ambiguous people, especially because to white people, everyone that isn't enough like them is categorically "other", and often times the specifics of that don't matter to them. And in my eyes, the "transracialism" movement sort of exploits that, much in a similar way as how white people who lie about being mixed race for their own benefit are seeking to exploit and appropriate the mixed race experience. Another example of how race is a silly concept, is that I know a dude whose parents are an interracial couple, White and Mexican, but because of how he looks, he is constantly clocked as Muslim and treated badly because of it. People are legit racist to him for supposedly being something that he, literally speaking, isn't. Racists just see what they want to see, I think. I also think it's important to note that, for every white person that lies about having mixed ancestry, there are even more actual mixed people who look white and are alienated from the non-white side of their family for it. Being mixed is weird, and it comes with a lot of challenges that people who aren't don't really think about. And again, I think the transracialism movement sort of works to exploit that, which is infuriating to me. Because, while they could retreat into their whiteness any time, I can't, despite /literally being/ half white. Transracialists seek, even if unintentionally, to exploit the truth that sometimes race isn't as clear-cut a thing as we are taught to think, and reap advantages from that idea that aren't available to people who are actually racially ambiguous and/or mixed race by default rather than appearing so via conscious effort.

kind of a branch off of this topic and i hope its not rude, but i would be interested to hear the opinions of poc with albinism on this topic! i think they experience racism/colorism in a way that is so exclusive to them especially if people want to just boil down the conversation to "idk its the features". especially since ive heard a lot of albino poc feel disconnected from their culture/identity sometimes or can have trouble relating to peers in their youth. ive seen people say albinism is white passing but as a white person without albinism i dont know if i agree with that. not that its up to me either way, but i feel like albino poc would have a unique perspective on this! i feel like its maybe the only thing comparable to rachel dolezal being able to turn off her 'blackness' to resume white privileges, that they are perceived as white and are expected to 'perform' racial stereotypes or have specific features to use as 'proof' to convince others of their blackness [in the case of black people with albinism]. i think transracialism a lot of times is either individual cultural connection or usually just people who dont want to speak about colorism when its on the subject of how they treat poc is having racially specific physical traits or not and just diverting it back to whiteness being the default and anything else being 'extra'. i really liked the inclusion of the italian woman, i see a lot of tiktoks of people saying someone in public started speaking to them in some language with the sound "you probably have the right idea but youve got the wrong bitch" because theyre actually a different heritage than the first person assumed and it reminded me of that.

@elends2302

3 жыл бұрын

This is an interesting point because Italians weren't even considered "white" for the longest time until VERY recently. Edit: Same thing with Jewish people, interestingly enough.

@emmettbattle5728

3 жыл бұрын

@@elends2302 yeah thats common knowledge that the definition has changed over time

I'm trans and BIPOC. Tbh, I would like for trans people to be left out of the "transracial" debate. It feels like at the same time that we're bashed in society for being trans, as we're still fighting for our basic rights, we're also being used as a debate prop. I liked how you explained the differences between the two concepts and how they can't be compared. I wish more people understood this. I cannot claim to understand how people who claim to be transracial feel like, but I am certain they can make their case and feel understood without bringing us into it, or for that matter any other identity group. It just feels cheap, like a low blow. Much love

@anthonyr.3697

2 жыл бұрын

Gay people we're saying the exact same thing about bi and Trans people 30 years ago. The idea that a more marginalized group will somehow delegitamize another group fighting for liberation has been disproven time and time again. I hope you find the acceptance and freedom that you deserve.

@sloaneglover1026

2 жыл бұрын

@@anthonyr.3697 gay people still say this sh## about us, and now the entire Republican political machine does too. please just leave trans people out of your debate, it contributes to making us targets.

@annas4843

2 жыл бұрын

@@sloaneglover1026 maybe trans people should stop harassing gay, lesbian, and women in general. If a lesbian is called transphobic for not wanting to get intimate with a man it’s very legitimate. If a woman doesn’t want to be called birthing person or host body don’t force it on her.

@sloaneglover1026

2 жыл бұрын

@@annas4843 things that never happen for $200, Mayim

@annas4843

2 жыл бұрын

@@sloaneglover1026 things that happen. Trans community has transformed from the self-portrayed victims to perpetrators. Your target is anyone who doesn’t conform to your ideology.

Gender and race work differently and they also work together when it comes to lived experiences. It interests me to discuss cis people who get misgendered often and people of a certain racial makeup who get incorrectly assumed as another, without the intention of presenting themselves a certain way as Dolezal is. I am interested in anyone who strongly identifies with a race on a personal level, because being multiracial for me has just led me down the somewhat apathetic path of just letting people assume what they want about me

@banahisayas4832

3 жыл бұрын

I’m not sure if this what you were looking for but I grew up in suburban America and my parents are immigrants from east Africa and 90% of people who meet me think I’m south Asian specifically Indian. I’ve even had actual south Asians think this too lol. It’s seems to be a pretty common experience for East Africans from those I’ve talked to. I honestly don’t get it. White people would always tell me “oh it’s because of your hair” I have really thick curly hair but so do most Africans lol. It used to bother me when I was younger bc I already had a lot of identity issues, the stereotypical first- gen things not African enough not American enough blah blah. I also didn’t identify myself as Black until high school bc my lived experience is so different from African-Americans and my parents didn’t identity themselves that way bc people don’t identify like that in the country they came from. My other issue with it was I felt like people not reading me African or black and them saying things like “oh it’s bc of your skin” or “your hair looks so different” was exoticizing in a way that was supposed to elevate me from what they think Africans/black people look like. This could’ve been my own perception tho. I felt like it came from ignorance about Africa, it’s literally the most diverse continent. East Africa alone has hundreds of ethnic groups, but I digress.

Love that you decided to do a deeper dive into this!

This is an issue I have thought a lot about. I think it is important to establish what people mean by "Race" when they talk about issues of personal and social identity. There are many different definitions of Race that people subscribe to. So I think it is imortant to understand that their is no universal or monothetic definition of race. It is a polythetic concept with different definitions that have many, but not all properties in common. The properties used to define racial identities that I think are most important to address are the properties of physical appearance and behavior. That is that the term "Race" is often used to define physical-appearances/phenotypes and cultural ideals, practices, and behaviors. Most Racist stereotypes then come from the assumption that since many people with certain phenotypes are recognized as behaving in certain ways, and that phenotypes are innate and hereditary, that then those behaviors must be innate and hereditary too. This then goes further when those behaviors are assumed to be universal amongst all people with certain phenotypes. As well as when it is assumed that people with certain phenotypes are assumed to be innately prone to behaviors that are stigmatized in a culture. The stereotype of "black people being less intelligent" being an notable example. In this way the issue of Racism overlaps with Ableism These stereotypes can cause many psychological issues for different individuals when they recognize that the behaviors associated with the race they are labeled as do not reflect their own personality traits. Or the personalities or cultural behaviors of others who are also defined as that race. I think it is important to understand the difference between personality and culture, and how many people are innately prone to behaviors that are in contrast with the cultures they are raised in, and the stereotypes others may hold against them. I myself am Autistic, and as a result I have been naturally prone to personality traits and behaviors that are stigmatized in the culture I was raised in. As a result I have never considered myself as part of the culture or "race" I was raised to identify as, and I have faced a great deal of abuse and mistreatment as a result. I have further felt dysphoric when I recognize that my Autistic behaviors are not stigmatized the same way amongst members of other cultural groups. This has lead me to the conclusion that not everyone is raised in the culture that is right for their own personality and thus their own psychological wellbeing. This creates a great issue when you want to integrate into a culture you recognize as being a better fit for you as an individual, but you face the assumption from others that you cannot because of your physical appearance. When it is assumed that you cannot behave, think, feel, or live a certain way because of the phenotypes you were born with. I don't think its any wonder why someone who recognizes that the identity others have forced on them does not reflect the identity they recognize in themselves or are comfortable with, that they then do what they can to make others recognize them as they wish to be recognized. Even if that means changing their physical appearance in order to change the social expectations of others in a way that matches what they feel comfortable expecting from themselves. I hope that more people in the future can accept the idea of Neurodiversity. That people are born with different neurotypes, and are thus naturally prone to different behaviors, that their is not direct correlation between neurotype and morphological phenotype, and that there is nothing wrong with any of that. Even if those behaviors are in contrast with the cultural norms of the society they are born into.

@anthonynorman7545

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure if it was your intent, but that was a great argument for trans racial (well, really race abolition but video context). I'm also an autistic poc and your conflicts with feeling out of place for behavior and skill color is unfortunately relatable. Go team coconut! :/

As a german, you will often hear americans tell "Oh, you're german, so am I", but, like, no, you're not. You were born in Ohio and so were your parents. There only happens to be somebody in your family tree, who 200 years ago, or so, was born a german. The difference is, you didn't live your life as a member of the german society, your personal experience has no ties to Germany or anything german. There is no biological quality, that you may have inherited, that would grant any level of "germanness". Because, "germanness" is not a biological fact, it's your lived experience, it's just another construct, but one, of which you are no part of, despite your "heritage". Races aren't a thing. They are a lived experience, but one which is not only created by internal interactions of a group (like "germanness"), but also one, that is also ascribed to you from the outside. So, you can be a white american of german ancestry and be the exact opposite of what "germanness" would be, or you could be a black, or middle eastern dude from Germany and be the germanest german who ever germaned. But you are white in both places, or black in both places, because both places perceive you as such and you have a shared experience with people who are also perceived the same way.

(ETA: I said this because I rolled my eyes HARD when it became obvious that the girl on the voicemail was Italian. Just, NO) Oof, ok, so I’m Italian and lemme be the first to point out: Italians LOVE to point out that they’re not white or “weren’t white” til “recently” (the 1960s on), “don’t look white” etc. (We are white). Yes, some of us can look less white, especially Italians from closer to the Mediterranean (Sicilianos, etc), but it often gets brought up in a “we weren’t allowed to buy houses legally til the 60s” way (Similar to “the Irish were slaves too” nonsense). It’s people who are now DEF included in whiteness identifying how each subsequent wave of immigrants in America was pushed against when they came, etc. And that shit DID suck, but it’s less about racism/skin tone and more about poverty/immigration status/class. Italians may be spicy-white looking sometimes (curly hair, more tan, different facial features) but that doesn’t mean we’re AT ALL subjected to systemic racism anything like what Black people, LatinX people, etc are. We don’t have generational poverty at all in the same way-we can get house loans no problems, etc. Even *darker* Italian people here are very clearly white. None of us worry about police violence. People pronounce our names properly. Having an Italian last name doesn’t keep you from getting hired (it’s *gotten* me 3 jobs actually). Nobody mistakes me with a tan for T1J, you know? I don’t get pulled over by the cops for having a big nose, 3B hair, and an olive undertone. I still have access to whiteness and am generally treated by the world as white. If there’s an occasional really xenophobic German dude who is like “only blond people are actually white” yes, he can be mean to me, but I can walk in the world without my race being a problem no matter how he feels. Maybe it’s just because I have Trump-voting Italian family that insist they “can’t be racist” because they were “subjected to racism too” but it feels like a way to sidestep acknowledging white privilege or say “my life is hard too because of how I look”. It’s self serving and I’m not here for it. We can have this conversation for the sake of nuance, talking about how the world goes off superficial snap judgements, not your culture, but I think we need to be careful because it’s very easy for spicy white people to use it to co-opt Black and Brown people’s experiences for attention, etc, which is actually harmful and takes up space Black and Brown people should be given. That and we LOVE to use our “less white” Italian identity to dodge acknowledging our white privilege.

@thevampirefrog06

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah half my family is white Ashkenazi (east-European Jewish), and even though the family members with darker skin can point to specific times when people thought they were PoC (older Latina women used to sometimes ask my grandma for directions in Spanish, for example), we're still clearly *white*. We have all the systemic and day-to-day benefits of white privilege. Is/was antisemitism a thing in the US? Yeah, that's why Jewish country clubs and Marjorie Taylor Green exist. But my grandparents weren't getting redlined out of neighborhoods in the 60s, and my parents didn't have to warn their kids about police brutality. Society treats us like white people. We're white. There *are* ethnically Jewish (including Ashkenazi) people who are black/Latino/Asian/First Nations, etc. I am not one of them.

@WhiteChocolate74

3 жыл бұрын

Most Hispanics and Middle Easterners are broadly white imo

@thepinkestpigglet7529

3 жыл бұрын

Unless you ask a racist.

@aislinnrossi4608

3 жыл бұрын

I completely agree, Italians are an interesting case but many of us take up space in this convo that feels unearned. I know here in Australia Italian immigrants were initially treated very poorly, and yes, were not considered "White" in a legal sense as amendments had to be made to the 'White Australia Policy' to allow us to settle here. My grandparents and parents can tell stories that do look a lot like racism. But to me the difference between us and Brown and Black people is the relative speed with which we were accepted into the White majority- within one to two generations we are now seen as fully White in both Australia and the US. That is so clearly a different experience to say Arab Australians, who have been in this country literally since colonisation and still face just as violent xenophobia as ever- or even Aboriginal Australians and African immigrants, who will likely never be able to quietly blend into Whiteness because of the way they look. Also being "non-white" is so inextricably linked to histories of colonisation and imperialism, that to me claiming a non-white identity as an Italian just feels like hiding behind old xenophobia to avoid having real convos about Italy's dubious history of fascism and it's part in the colonisation of the global south. Briefly being treated poorly in very specific parts of the world doesn't undo those power structures.

@pyritepaladin5647

3 жыл бұрын

@@thevampirefrog06 This comment is really interesting and I agree that rn in the U.S Jewish folks are generally considered white, but I wanted to point out that at least in my city Jewish neighborhoods were redlined during the 70s. I think it also comes down to region, it's really messy lol.

It's easy to dismiss transracial identity because the "community" is too small to present a compelling case. The "community" seems to consist of about three White women who identify as Black, and who don't seem to know each other. If there was a much larger, more diverse community of people who genuinely identified as transracial, then they would have diverse feelings and experiences related to the identity and it would be harder to dismiss. If we never reach a point where more than a handful of people identify as transracial, then there will never be a good reason to take the identity seriously. But for all we know, the world's population of people who openly identify as transracial could be at the same stage of growth and social acceptance that western transgender communities were in about 100 years ago. It's only over the past couple of decades that we've seen significant progress towards the acceptance of transgender people. Prior to that, many of us would have dismissed transgender identities with arguments that are similar to those that we use to dismiss transracial identities today, and we wouldn't have been able to conceive of anything that would cause our views to change. Our perception of the legitimacy of an identity has as much to do with the general social attitude towards it as it has to do with the feelings and experiences of the people who have that identity. I agree that the asymmetries of racial privilege and the exclusive nature of Whiteness make it problematic for a White person to identify as Black. But is transracialism the sole preserve of White women for some reason? Could there ever be e.g. a Chinese person who identifies as Indian? Also, note that there's already a wide range of ways in which people choose to surgically/chemically replace various physical traits that are associated with their racial identity. They usually do it to feel more accepted by others, but it's not inconceivable that a person might do it as a hard-to-reverse affirmation of their internal identity. I'm not saying any of this to suggest that we should accept the legitimacy of transracial identities -- they're meaningless to me because race has no good use outside of identifying and fighting racism. All I'm saying is that we can't be sure that people in the next century won't refer to your video as an example of the unenlightened attitudes of the past. It seems like this debate is effectively an attempt to predict whether or not the transracial community will ever grow (I strongly doubt it, but who knows?).

@rituparikh2255

3 жыл бұрын

Not fully a Chinese person who “identifies as” Indian, but I know a great Chinese cook who was born in China, grew up in india as a boy, learning Hindi and playing with Indian boys, left for high school back to China, and then returned to India still fluent in Hindi for culinary school. His food is amazing. I know we call people born to 2 “different raced” parents biracial, but I’d argue this man is biracial. I have an Indian friend who lives in Ghana and has a Ghanaian accent. When we first met, our mutual friend had told me she went to school in Hong Kong but permanently lives in Ghana. When I say I was not expecting an Indian girl-I was not expecting an Indian girl! I figured she’d be Chinese and black.

@MelodiousThunk

3 жыл бұрын

@@rituparikh2255 Sounds to me like those two people have had diasporic experiences that people have been having throughout history. E.g. my parents were Nigerian, but I've spent my life living in England, so I've been culturally influenced by both my Nigerian heritage and the cultures of the White British people that I've interacted with throughout my life. I would never claim to be _racially_ Mixed, but it does make sense to me for people like me and your friends to identify as _culturally_ mixed. Also, even if I were to have children with another British-born Nigerian, and my children were to do the same, and this continued for many generations, at a certain point my descendants would be so far removed from their Nigerian heritage that it would make more sense for them to identify as ethnically British than ethnically Nigerian, as ethnicity has more to do with the culture and history that collocated people share than with their genetic ancestry.

@FreshHexx

Жыл бұрын

This is really true and odd that no one else in the comments has pointed this out

I was just thinking about the fact that for a large part of my childhood I grew up in black culture, but I still maintained my white privilege and therefore didn't have a black experience.

From my perspective as a "mixed race" person it's very easy to see how strong notions of race don't really make any sense and also how much our social customs play into making them look like they do. I think much of the debate around social issues like racism are so confusing for people partly because they are built on or reacting to social customs and conventions that are based on our everyday notion of race being true in a much stronger sense than it is. Many anti racist positions can be understood as 'racist' themselves due to the way they seem to affirm race as true and meaningful at the same time as trying to forward a position grounded in race not being a category that we should be differentiated on at all. I think everyone talking in a way that makes it difficult to confuse "race" with reality would be a great thing, making it harder for people to keep perpetuating racialized thinking. The concept of "race" would still be useful for studying and responding to how how groups of people treat people they sees in a racialized ways, but that stuff would could be understood as separate from a more objective reality, about which discussion can happen free of racialized language.

@PIRATETRUDEAU

Жыл бұрын

as a fellow mixed raced individual, it's hard for me not to cringe at how unfathomably stupid our society actually is, lol, from almost every angle... always reactionary, predictable and monolithic.

This video has me very interested into your thoughts @T1J on the topic of biracial/mutli-racial identity, particularly in America. It seems the general stance on biracial people is that they're a half-and-half mixture of identities. In reality, it seems in many instances to be a unique identity on its own, with unique experiences that set it apart from any existing racial group. I'm relatively new to your channel so I'm not sure if you've already made a video on the subject.

@Nemo_Anom

3 жыл бұрын

I can tell you from personal experience, of myself and others I know, that, very often, there is rejection on most or all sides, so that a biracial or multiracial person isn't really accepted in any community but only among their own family. That isn't really much of an identity or culture, but a shitty experience. We have our cultures denied us.

@MichaelSmith-rn6pq

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nemo_Anom fellow mixed person here. You nailed it.

I am white passing but I have a name and last name that are very typical of my race. So it's complicated because I do have white privilege, but only up until people hear my name. After that, some people very rapidly assume that my culture is non-white, that I am a follower of a certain religion and so on. They treat me as if suddenly I am a different person than the one they have met 5 minutes ago. Some treat me as if I was stupider, some fetishize me because now they perceive me as "exotic", or try to use me as the token friend to prove that they are not racists since they have "diverse" friends. I also grew up in a predominantly white family, and some members of my family were very racists. They knew about my biracial background and would make comments making me feel like I was flawed and inferior because of it. My experience of racism is very different than that of someone who cannot pass as white, but I still experience racism in some aspects of my life. And it's not like I can chose to not say my name (regarding work, medical appointments, etc.). Plus I don't want to change my name either, because I want to be able to feel proud of every part of my identity. edit: It's also hard because since I am white passing, a lot of time I don't feel like I have the right to speak of my own experience of racism, as if it was not legitimate. But to me being white and white passing are two different things.

This conversation has always been fascinating to me. I'm mixed but I'm incredibly white passing so I've had hangups in regards to identity in the past, mostly feeling like I'm an imposter in regards to my Mexican side because I never felt like I "lived" the experience. But on the other hand I was raised solely by my Mexican mom and mostly spent time with my Mexican family and if I were darker I'd have none of these hangups... It's just complicated atm I think. Heck I found out recently that my mother that i had some shame in regards to my Mexican heritage and I told her that pretty much the opposite was true. I was ashamed that I didn't know the language well enough and so I didn't speak it out of shame and such. But I've always loved the culture and just felt like I was a faker idk! Anyway I can honestly totally imagine a situation in which someone would logically identify as transracial. Perhaps even unknowingly. But most of those I'd imagine are due to upbringing and a lived experience that are pretty comparable to the race they're identifying as. I do sometimes think about the fact that we could easily live in a society that is in favor of transracialism and that's all it would take for it to be valid. That's the weird part about social constructs to me. Like we're all deeming it invalid for valid reasons but in 100 years we could think completely differently. So idk I'll believe the conversation is complicated and have mixed feelings about it for the time being until I hear more definitive arguments. Like I'm non binary and idk what that entails in regards to lived experience. Of course I'm totally in agreement that the existence of trans people needn't validate the existence of transracial people but I do see the parallels so it's hard to completely ignore it.

@StarlightShooting

3 жыл бұрын

I really empathize with your point of view, and I believe transracialism could be "that issue" popular with our children that us gen-zers, millenials, etc just won't "get", similar to how many of our parents are not accepting of transgenderism, homosexuality, queerness etc.

@lynnhettrick7588

3 жыл бұрын

My twin niece and nephew are of mixed heritage. My niece is light skinned like their mother and my nephew is darker like their father. They barely look like siblings much less twins. They do have that twin bond with each other, but I wonder how different their experiences are because of how the world around them perceives them.

I found that I disagree with you about a few of the big points you made in this video. Still loved it though. It's sincere and as usual you do a great job of acknowledging your lack of certainty, respecting other perspectives, and displaying the underlying attitude of not being a jerk to people even when you disagree. I wish more people were like that.

A critique I have for your distinction between gender and racial identity is that it relies on the narrative of a trans person who undergoes reassignment as opposed to the library of other means of gender expression. Additionally, it got a bit messy as gender identity can’t always be observed outwardly, much like how the caller stated with their racial identity. If a trans woman who hasn’t undergone reassignment still wished to have masculine presentation, they would still be given patriarchal privileges and be identified as masculine by others. Beyond that, I’m still think being transracial is possibly a thing, but perhaps hasn’t had time to develop a semi-solid core. Of course, my understanding does come from a position of white privilege with a history of centrist “colorblind” rearing.

1. One of the more interesting things for me is learning that members of classic rock bands that I perceived as white (because they're medium-skinned, old camera technology has crap for color-balance, and classic rock is perceived as a genre for white people) are actually not of (complete) European ancestry. Examples include Freddie Mercury (who is a Zoroastrian Parsi of Indian descent born in present-day Africa) and Eddie Van Halen (who's mother is from Indonesia and whom David Lee Roth said was often bullied in the 60s for being biracial and non-white). Kinda raises the question of what makes a person white-passing. 2. My response to the transracial question is that a form of gender roles exist in almost all cultures, so we would expect to see people who do not identify with the gender role they are assigned. However, race is an invention of modern (but out-dated) science so expecting someone to identify as another race makes no sense. Identifying with another culture is different, but in my opinion that process is natural for people of all skin tones and nationalities.

@geephlips

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting thing about Eddie Van Halen is that his family moved to the US from the Netherlands when he was 7, so he also faced the challenge of learning English.

@lynnhettrick7588

3 жыл бұрын

It wasn't until I watched the Queen/Freddie Mercury film that I found out about his background/heritage. I hadn't known before that.

@geephlips

3 жыл бұрын

@@lynnhettrick7588 I think I learned that about 10-15 years ago. Had no idea before that. BTW, here’s a video of the Van Halen brothers speaking Dutch in an interview from 1979. kzread.info/dash/bejne/gn-Dr7aFgNS2p9o.html

@charliekahn4205

3 жыл бұрын

Wait. Present-day Africa? Did the borders of Africa change in a way I don't know about in the past century?

@champagnepapisocialist5903

3 жыл бұрын

@@charliekahn4205 I did NOT explain that well LOL. Zanzibar is an archipelago in the Indian Ocean that is about 30 miles (50 km) off the coast of mainland Africa, so geographically it's easiest to roll into the continent of Africa. But culturally it has been a crossroads for many different ethnicities and people groups and when Freddie was born it was an autonomous Sultanate. What I meant to say it is part of present-day Tanzania, which is a country in Africa. My bad LMAO

Ironically I went into this thinking transracialism was probably not a thing and only superficially analagous to being transgender, but came out more on the fence for transracialism being legitimate. I feel like your validation of trans people in general just 'being' the people they are without having a necessarily choosing it, while contrasting to Rachel Dolezal as an individual sounding like she had just found a place that she liked more, as a slightly awkard comparison. Especially because that seems to me exactly the accusation that is often levelled at trans people , that they are only 'playing' at being another gender because it's fun, or because they like the attention, or just prefer to think that way.

@Teppishc

3 жыл бұрын

*Just to clarify, I'm not not saying that it is the same. It just felt like a slightly unfair assumption that transgender people feel a more innate connection to gender than transracial people might to race, without backing it up a little more.

@wexlermackey2395

3 жыл бұрын

@@Teppishc You can't choose to be transgender really(I mean like you're born being trans), which I understand is your point. However, in my opinion, changing your race isn't really anything. It is just how you look and are perceived by the world. It is literally just how you look, while gender is something different completely. Race obviously does have things besides looks, if you grew up as white in a black neighborhood maybe you'd identify more with that culture, however that is just a culture, it isn't defined by race completely. Sure you can decide that you prefer hanging out with people who are more like you in general, but that doesn't mean you can change your race around it.

@ChaseDowling

3 жыл бұрын

I agree; I thought there were too many somewhat circular arguments of convenience. I feel like T1J is essentially taking the position of "I know it when I see it". I think this is a perfectly tenable position to hold, but one that should be acknowledged for what it is. Here we claim there are two useful and distinct categorizations of the world (race and gender), and thus should be treated distinctly, but T1J draws upon whether they have biological or sociological justifications when convenient, distorting whether he is taking an essentialist perspective incompatible with his point (which is what it sounds like he's doing) or an empirical "I know it when I see it" perspective which *is* compatible with his point (what he ends up doing).

@Teppishc

3 жыл бұрын

@@wexlermackey2395 My understanding (open to correction as I may well be wrong...) is that people might not choose to be transgender but that doesn't mean they were born that way and that there will still be social and cultural effects (that they still might not choose) that lead to someone being transgender. That it's basiclaly a complicated mix of biology, culture and individual experience. That said even if it was decided at birth, I'm not sure if innately 'being' transgender from biology, is meaningfully different from innately 'being' transracial because of culture, from a moral point of view. The argument seemed to be about authenticity rather than the source of difference, and I'm not sure whether biology creates a more authentic identity than social and cultural factors. Honestly don't know, but it's an interesting thought.

Wow it's been a while since I've visited your content and I'm really digging the new camera and the colors and lighting of your set. Looks awesome!

this reminds me of an old friend i had throughout elementary school to high school. they were adopted into a mainly white family ( their little sister was adopted a few years later) and i, for an embarrassingly long amount of time considering we were close, thought that they were black when they were actually southern indian (and pretty dark skinned as well, around the same skin color as tj) i assumed this had happened to them many times before as they didn’t seem surprised when i finally learned and i just wonder how this affected their relationship to their race. there were no other southern indian people, not even that many eastern asians in our community and no one else in her family was indian/eastern asian as well (her little sister was western/southern asian but the rest were white). she would obviously correct people when it’s brought up but societally probably treated as a black person. also, not to speak for her but in the sense of this argument, probably felt a closer connection to the black community there based on this treatment. does this mean she really Is black? as she has very little connection to her racial community/ethnicity? it’s like he was mentioning in the video, is there truly a difference between black and black-passing? similar to a comment i saw earlier but especially in their case i feel like there must have been times when someone did not believe that they truly weren’t black which can definitely change the way people treat them,,, not sure where i was really going with this but just an example i wanted to bring up !

@savbison599

3 жыл бұрын

just now realizing i mixed up western/eastern bc i don’t know directions :)

My totally unqualified take: I think there are three separate components to race, and I will list them in order of importance, with personal examples. 1. Appearance: As you said, the way you are perceived determines how people treat you. This has to be weighted more heavily than the other two combined. My phenotype is light-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned, so people experience me as white, and I receive the associated privileges. 2. Performance: I can only speak for what whiteness expects of me, but it's...a lot. I'm supposed to look a certain way, talk a certain way, act a certain way, think a certain way, have certain priorities, exclude certain people, etc. And when I don't do that, because more and more I'm refusing to perform whiteness, I am punished. 3. Internal Experience: The experiences that you go through (based on your appearance and performance) shape your internal identity, but you've also got your family history, your intergenerational trauma, the influence of your parents' culture(s), etc. My mom is white & Indigenous; my dad is white & Asian. I have the experiences of a white Appalachian growing up on a farm, but I also have the memory of my great-grandmother telling me she was afraid to speak Cherokee because the government would take her kids away. I still feel the sting of being questioned by airport security every time I flew with my dad, because they couldn't believe my sibling and I were his real kids. Like...are those white experiences? IDK I think our society doesn't really know what to do with people from mixed-race families, especially if they are not black + white. Mainstream entertainment seems unable to conceive of mixed-race people who are not mixed with white at all, as if Afro-Indigenous people did not exist, as if Asian-Latine people did not exist...it's a mess.

@masscreationbroadcasts

Жыл бұрын

Ok, and the same can be said about gender? Because if we were to make parallels, the Internal Experience of gender is always talked about as innate, which I'd be curious to know why.

@leebird9023

Жыл бұрын

@@masscreationbroadcasts I would say gender has the same or similar components, but I would rank them backwards. So gender is (1) internal experience, (2) performance, and (3) appearance. Each element builds on the previous one; when your internal experience is feminine, you feel motivated to perform femininity and that performance gives you the appearance of being femme. And because gender is not dependent on your family history in the way race is, it can change.

@masscreationbroadcasts

Жыл бұрын

@@leebird9023 ok, so your last sentence is a tone shift, but I'll ask why on the first part, though I won't refuse an answer for the second as well.

@ambientjohnny

Жыл бұрын

@@leebird9023 How could a male possibly KNOW what being female feels like? He can't. All you can go by is sexist stereotypes , which are not at all the same as the acrtual thing. No one can KNOW what it is like to be something they have never been, can never be and will never be. They can CLAIM to know this, but they don't, because it is impossible.

@ambientjohnny

Жыл бұрын

The fact that you think you have to be some certain way because you are white, is you failing to realise what a slave you are to your emotions. You have internalised a sense of what is "allowed", what "boundaries" your "whiteness" has in a social sense - those limits are not real, they are stereotypes you are believing to be valid. The feeling of "being punished" for "not acting right" is entirely on YOU, as you have not taken any steps on the path of true individuation yet. YOU are responsible for how you react to things emotionally. Someone else making you feel something negative, it may not be nice of them, there are of course a myriad of possible starting points, but your reaction is still on you. Believing you have no control over your reaction is a fallacy, something that sadly many people don't even realise is possible to change. There is no simple solution, meditation and introspection, pranayama, are all essential though. It took me a long long time and a very negative experience to finally break through in this area, and it of course changed my life, shifted my perspective so I finally realised just how problematic my own attitude was and for the first time then I realised what a real internal sense of peace and safety felt like. The same applies to the whole "trans" thing, people internalise sexist stereotypes and believe there are behavioural boundaries to either sex, that if they feel a certain way etc. not stereotypically associated with one sex they must "be" another gender - no, they have self-imposed these regressive ideas, and they aren't pushing back against anything by "transitioning", they are merely validating and perpetuating regressive societal notions of what being a man or a woman entails.

4:45 Even in the US, people from Italy, Spain, Greece, or other Southern European nations who tend to have darker complexions than those in Northern Europe, have only been considered "white" for a hundred years, or perhaps less. They were often heavily discriminated against when they first began arriving as immigrants in the US in the 1800s, and were considered to be completely different from Europeans from places like France, Germany, Scotland, and Russia. I actually attended a Restorative Justice professional development session today at the school where I work, and one of the subjects was race and how to talk about it with students in an appropriate and accurate way. The materials we were given made the point that when thinking about race, not only is it an entirely artificial construct invented by people, but that every "race" in the world is defined by its relation to a particular geographic location... except for two: Black and White. All other races, when we see them listed, reference geography defining where people of those races come from, at least by background or ancestry. Only "Black" and "White" are completely independent of that. I had never really thought about that before, and I found it fascinating.

@xp8969

3 жыл бұрын

Same thing with Eastern Europeans and the Irish and Scots, same thing with Latinos, same thing Jews and Catholics and even poor people from "white" countries like England, basically anyone who wasn't a White Anglo-Saxon property owning Protestant wasn't part of the "white" ruling class

@kaiceecrane3884

3 жыл бұрын

@@xp8969 french was once considered latino, to my understanding it was a french terms to unify latin people as separate from Anglo-Saxons in the Americas

@ineffablemars

3 жыл бұрын

@@xp8969 Yeah. I like to make the distinction that.. yes, I'm white but I'm not WASP white.

Some of the most thoughtful, interesting takes on KZread; paired with a charming delivery and approachable language. Great channel!

Hey T1J, have you ever looked into Iron Eyes Cody? He could be labeled "transracial," but there's a lot of nuance to his story (e.g. many within the indigenous community accepted him as "one of their own" despite his genealogical background) and I think it's useful to compare/contrast with Rachel Dolezal's story in terms of identity vs. self-interest.

@EphemeralTao

3 жыл бұрын

Cody was a really strange character. In his case, his transracialism was a combination of the ethnic prejudice he suffered under, and a sort of obsession with an idealized "Noble Savage" image of indigenous peoples that he developed as a child and expanded on while working in the film industry. For those who don't know, he was of Sicilian heritage, whose parents immigrated to the US around the turn of the previous century; which immigrants were effectively second-class citizens, often relegated to ghettos and slums. Cody got a lot of work in the American film industry, as his darker skin and hair made it easy for him to get roles as Native American and similar ethnicities. He ended up living a lot of his life as something of an affectionate stereotype of First Nations peoples, and appears to have eventually come to believe himself that he was of indigenous heritage. His life and identity is somewhat polarizing among First Nations peoples, with some accepting him fully, and others despising him for playing and becoming a stereotyped "redface" role; but he was active in promoting the cause of indigenous people and their rights. He eventually married an indigenous woman, Bertha Parker also known under her Seneca name as Gayewas (and who was herself an accomplished archaeologist), and adopted two indigenous children.

I guess the framework of racial cultural presentation we all have is really a lot of the problem. Expectations that people act and behave in accordance with our views of their racial identity are what cause this friction. Rachel D could probably be more comfortable living her life without the need to identify as black if her cultural expression wasn't pigeon-holed as a black one. The white people who are told they "act black," and the black people who are told they "act white" could really embrace the experiences they share with their apparent race without having conflict with their performative selves. The thing I keep thinking about is the First Nations-identifying people out there, who can't be part of the tribe because they don't pass a blood test as "native enough." Frankly, a lot of that is motivated by the financial and political outcomes of that, which corrupts the whole process. I saw one of these people, in an interview, say "My race is the only race that's determined by a blood test," and that person wasn't wrong that there is a flaw in this. This also compares with "trans-ableism," where people feel that their body should not be the typical, but have inclination to alter themselves so that their physical ability comes into line with how they perceive themselves. Both transracialism and transableism butt heads with lived experience and with identity, but they do it in a way that runs against what transgenderism does. Race, as a quantity, is partially mapped to a measurable quality, ableism is likewise anchored in tangibles. Gender, though, as a component that appears to be distinct from biological sex and orientation, and is in many ways, a purely performative function, doesn't have the same core contradiction. Get back to me when we're all in android bodies, and no one knows what the person at the datacenter actually looks like, maybe there will be more to talk about.

As a person who has a black and a white parent I find it strange that people identify me as black but not as white despite the fact that I'm literally in the middle

I appreciate the thoughtfulness as always.... but in this instance, I was actually left wanting a bit more than "race and gender are not the same" as a conclusion!.... That is, you raised the strands of several interesting aspects but ending by saying "in the end- just no!" and i would have liked (for the purposes of thinking about it more and learning) more of an account of how these thoughts interrelate, WHY race and gender feel different to most people (rather than just pointing out there is no requirement to equate them), and generally more of a structured thesis around what (in your opinion) are the most important factors in what ends up defining race.... If I went back and re watched I could try to identify all the places I thought you were being a bit hasty and simplistic and try to formulate an argument (perhaps about why you are right but its mostly for THIS (X) reason) but I was kinda following your argument through and felt a bit wanting more at the end! I Love the work you do!

@FreshHexx

Жыл бұрын

This, so much. I was really waiting for the full answer and it doesn't explain well. I wasn't convinced transracialism couldn't be valid because even the points made are either not logically sound, overly simplistic, or when flipped could easily be a transphobic talking point (which again, there's no legitimate reason given why race and gender work differently).

Amazing video! When you first explained the theme of the video, my brain immediately went to familial experience, as initially that is where we learn our identity from. The experiences, reactions, and stories in our family. This also comes into play with class, and how being raised (for example) working class/working poor will affect us for the rest of our lives even if we make our way into a different economic class. (And even though class can be argued to be total BS.) This isn't all of it, or course. But it seems like a piece of it. I questioned my idea after hearing that voice message, but then came back around after hearing your thoughts on the matter.

@howardcohen6817

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, JoRiver. I develop my identity and the culture develops - quite independently - its identification of me. Most often these are incongruous and in opposition to one another only deflected or revision-able depending upon my marketing skills!

Wow, excellent video. Lots to think about. Thank you.

Wow I’m so glad I stumbled on your channel. I really enjoyed listening to all you had to say.

I am Indigenous, Métis to be exact, and I am as white-passing as they come. While technically only a quarter I have light skin and hair and my eyes are an emerald green. For many people, I will never be Indigenous but I am even though I possess several privileges not experienced by other members of my family. But it's still my culture, it's still my upbringing and no one can take that away from me.

@alfredoleiva5522

3 жыл бұрын

So you’re only a quarter indigenous? Yet you’re white passing? You’re just white at that point lmao

@surgeland9084

3 жыл бұрын

@@alfredoleiva5522 Except that I was raised with Métis traditions and am accepted as Métis by my community. What's this blood quantum bs?

@alfredoleiva5522

3 жыл бұрын

@@surgeland9084 this is the same argument white people who grew up in the “hood” use.

@surgeland9084

3 жыл бұрын

@@alfredoleiva5522 It's not the same. For one thing, white people were never taken from their homes and enslaved on a basis of their whiteness; unlike the ancestors of most African Americans. For another, they are allowed to be a part of a majority-black community whilst recognizing their privilege. Native people have literal laws determining how much ancestry they need to be Native. They are the only group in North America who are seen that way. These laws serve only to dilute and erase Native people over time and are unpopular in Native communities for that reason. In other words, it's not about how you look or how much "blood" you have anymore. It's about your commitment to the values and traditions of the culture and to fighting the issues they face hand in hand with members of the community more afflicted than you are. It's not as reductive as you describe it. You have no right to police people's identities.

@alfredoleiva5522

3 жыл бұрын

@@surgeland9084 it’s cool that your native community accepts as you native or whatever but no else looking at you will perceive you that way. Not too mention all the inherit privileges you have by not looking native.

so if rachel dolezal wasn't really transracial bc she could choose otherwise, would someone that legitimately thought they were born in the body of the "wrong race" be legitimately transracial? I feel like gender and race are different, but I also feel like the relevant differences haven't been sufficiently named. I think we're getting close with making a distinction between cultural background and race, but if race is based purely on physical attributes then that seems like an argument in favor of it being morally valid to claim that you do "feel like" you should have different physical attributes (as is the case with transgender people). Because a lot of the issues people have with transracial seems like the co-opting of culture and history, which is based on using the term "race" to refer to both physical appearance and cultural background. And yet it we would consider it somewhat more odd for someone to get "permanent blackface" or something than for someone to get gender-affirming surgery.

@EphemeralTao

3 жыл бұрын

Looking at the science, the two could not be more different. "Race" is purely a social construct, it is not supported by any science. There are simply no genetic racial boundaries, but a broad range of genetic variation that diverges far more due to environmental influence than on one's genes. There is no more genetic difference between Europeans and Africans, than there is between Norwegians and Italians. By contrast, it's becoming increasingly clear that transgenderism is a neurological phenomenon; based on what neuroscientists refer to as "Internal Body Image"; a map in the brain that corresponds to one's physical body. In some individuals, this map develops differently from the body, so there is a disconnect between one's neurological gender map, and one's actual physical sexual characteristics. It's similar to how autistic people's brains are wired dramatically different from neurotypical people's brains. The cause of this disconnect is not well understood yet; and is still being studies; but part of it appears to be the result of environmental influences during pre-natal development.

@katattack907

3 жыл бұрын

I too feel like the differences between gender and racial identity haven't been clearly named. Most of the time I hear that "they're just different" but they sound similar to me, like if someone born into a male body benefits from male privilege before affirming their female identity, how does that work differently from someone who feels born into a body that doesn't match their racial identity? Would we even be having this conversation if the US wasn't built on shallow racist ideology, or could a hypothetical postracial world accommodate transracialism? Lots of questions to still explore on this topic. Great vid as always, T1J.

@lynnhettrick7588

3 жыл бұрын

@@EphemeralTao I agree with you! (Just one correction: "transgenderism" isn't a word. Either "being trans" or "gender identity" would work in that sentence.)

@sub-harmonik

3 жыл бұрын

@@EphemeralTao well if you're correct and there is evidence of that then my condition of someone thinking that they were born in the body of the "wrong race" wouldn't be as legitimate. I'm just posing the hypothetical, for instance if similar "body maps" existed for phenotypical racial features as well as gendered ones for some individual. I can totally see that as being way less likely though.

@sub-harmonik

3 жыл бұрын

@@EphemeralTao also I disagree with your assertion that there is no more genetic difference between europeans and africans than between norwegians and italians. Europe is relatively genetically homogenous. North africa shares much of that homogeneity, but if you look at the southern parts of africa genetically compared to europe they're pretty different, compared to the difference between 2 european populations. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_clustering en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genome_Diversity_Project

Not to be that guy, because this is not my experience (White Latino-Immigrant child), but I wonder what white-passing Indigenous people would feel about the statement that there's no real difference between how people view them and how they view white people. I think that being perceived as White can be a detriment as a means of enforcing an imposter syndrome on you by saying "you're not X, you look white". Along with issues of Indigenous signifiers, such as specific styles and clothing, being written off as something white people just take anyways, so one signalling their actual lived experience on a reservation coming off as appropriation and getting erased can be its own racially charged trauma. Now again, I might be very off-base here, and don't see transracialism as really the subject of this comment. But it's also worth noting that racial power dynamics can shift based on where you are. Being white-passing on an Indigenous reservation might play into the person's life very differently than in a settler city. I dunno, hopefully an Indigenous person can give their two cents, but I feel like they can get left out of these conversations often, and I think eliminating the concept of white-passing would be detrimental to people in those situations. That's just me though. A white guy. So grain of salt.

@BuddyCrotty

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, my mom is indigenous Mexican. I went to schools in Southern CA with 95% white populations and I was always considered one of the 5% Mexican.....until I moved to San Diego, and now I'm considered completely white. I really only pass as "other" by both groups, not accepted into either group. When I've travel to Asia I'm considered white, but in Europe people ask my nationality even though my accent is obviously American (they really mean to ask what my race is). As someone who "tans well", I totally get what the caller meant when she said you don't own your race. I have to be conscious of where I am and how I might be perceived. As a teen I was pulled over in my BMW twice, in one area the police came out with their hands on their guns asking if the car was stolen, and another time they assumed I was a rich white kid driving his parents car. I do absolutely consider my racial ambiguity a privilege though.

@kaiceecrane3884

3 жыл бұрын

I find my self in a weird place with indigenous identity. I was born into a tribe with citizenship but raised outside of it do didn't have any connection to it either other than just being told I'm a part of it. Ethnically I am of european descent predominantly with only little Amerindian ethnicity, so I clearly look and am white. The tribe I have citizenship with blood quantam doesn't matter, but I also didn't grow up with the tribe nor do I look indigenous. With all of that in mind I struggle with saying I am apart of the tribe, I have mostly no cultural relation I grew up with (other than my grandma teaching us on occasion) and don't look indigenous, so I feel like my connection is practically non existent and don't want to be that white person claiming something I'm not. Because there are alot of white people who do that, I also feel like I am doing something wrong when trying be apart of the culture of the tribe and learning about it as to be closer to it. Part of me feels like I should just ignore it and not be that white person claiming something that I'm not, then part of me also feels wrong ignoring that part of my heritage and separating myself from it.

@pseudonamed

3 жыл бұрын

I think it's a bit different with being indigenous, because there is indigenous race but also indigenous culture.. you could look indigenous and grow up outside the culture, or you could look white and grow up on a reserve.. so your own connection to indigeneity might not match up with how others see you.

I really appreciate the story the individual that left the voicemail shared. I also have a complicated association with my race based on my visual perception and honestly thank you for sharing

I've only just found your channel, but this was a great breakdown of a concept I've struggled to adequately explain to others and very thought-provoking. Definitely subscribed.

So one of my parents looks brown (but Chinese background), the other white (eastern European). As a result, One of my siblings looks Hispanic, one mixed-Asian and myself, white. So it’s weird figuring out my identity, cause I’m surrounded by family who are v ethnically ambiguous, and culturally all over the place (my family have also moved around a lot geographically). It would seem really weird to identify as a different ethnicity to my siblings, cause we all have identical background ofc but just different phenotypes by random chance. So what matters, Your looks or your blood? I usually put white & Asian on forms and stuff, cause that’s how I feel, and technically am, but then other ppl might think it’s weird. 🤷

@howardcohen6817

3 жыл бұрын

It matters who is answering the question. Defining a person's race is not a benign thing or is it objective. Others define us as they will regardless of who we are. I can not change this, nor should I try. What I can try to do is to get the law of the land to accommodate all citizens and people equally. How I am seen must be solely done as something of personal interest for the beholder without financial, social or legal consequences for me.

Seriously, thank you so much for mentioning transracial adoptees. Rachel Dolezal has made it so frustrating for me to describe my life experience. Adoptees are so often erased from these conversations.

@greywolf7577

3 жыл бұрын

I think that the adoption community will just have to come up with a different word to mean adoptions where the child is a different race than the adult. It's probably for the better anyway, since the prefix "trans" has become associated with changing one's personal identity rather than with family identities.

I love your videos - you talk about so many important topics that the average person shy away from - I appreciate what you do to bring logic and level communication to these topics

Very interesting video, and a pretty fascinating topic. I had a couple thoughts pushing back on some of your arguments against transracial being a thing, even though I agree with that premise. One point was with Rachel. You point out, correctly, that the way she talks about her racial identity is much more flippant and sounds a lot more casual than how most trans people would refer to their identity. However, that raises the question, if she did explain her racial identity using the same language as trans people do when referring to their gender, would that make it more legitimate? Also, in the case of the caller, you say that she is similar because at any point she has the option of revealing her true heritage. But if someone looking the exact same as the caller was born to a black family, but lied and claimed to be from a white one, and they were believed by all, would that automatically make them white or give them white privilege? I would say no. Even though the caller can point to their white family and heritage and receive some privilege from that, they still have the same struggles that come from a stranger’s automatic and initial determination of race. Those were just some off the cuff thoughts, feel free to argue, I do still intuitively think that transracial isn’t a thing. I’m just not sure exactly why, or whether my intuition is the truth.

So I literally know a mixed black girl from a white conservative family (mom had some fun when she was young🤣) and her family and the last time I spoke about this subject with her she was “white”. I found this so weird because she looks clearly like a light skin black girl, her hair texture besides tanner skin gives it all away, my mom is mixed (Irish and black) but she has always considered herself black. When I told her family this and they got mad at me and said “well was your mom raised by her black family, turns that’s why”…. Which is true my mom is white passing tbh more white passing than my friend is but she has always been black, married a black man and had 3 black sons. Another phenomenon I’ve seen is white people saying to their light skin friends that “they’re not really black” they even do this with their dark skin black friends because i too been told this and I’m brown skin

If race is in part a description of external power dynamics, them would it the dismantling of those dynamics lead to race abolition? People would then use different language to identify themselves internally and use more accurate descriptors to talk about external physical features. This is coming from an internally white person who is perceived externally as an operating white mixed person.

@anthonynorman7545

3 жыл бұрын

I really hope so. I'd live to live in a truly post-race world and I don't see any other way for those dynamics to go away.

One thing that bugs me about the conflation between transracialism and transgenderism is that no one actually wants to talk about the parallels that do exist between systems of race and gender, they just want to bring up a question that doesn't have a simple answer as a gotcha. I'm trans and white and I've had tons of extremely interesting conversations with people of color about similarities and differences between race and gender, especially about how passing works as a trans person between how it works as someone biracial or racially ambiguous, its interesting every single time, but no one halfheartedly comparing trans women to rachel dolezal actually gives a shit about having those conversations.

@ambientjohnny

Жыл бұрын

Believing sexist stereotypes define men and women, instead of their biological sex, is unquestionably sexist to the core, because you are saying men and women are not actually free to behave however they want but need to conform to these sexist stereotypes in order to be men or women - if you say no they don't have to act any sort of way as a man or woman, and being a man or woman has nothing to do with biology - then what are you describing by calling someone a man or woman? If you think it doesn't describe biology, and doesn't describe anything about their looks or behaviour, then what on earth are you basing defining anyone as a man or woman on??? Why would a man need to become a "trans woman" in order to be their "authentic selves", why can't they just be a very feminine man and dress/act however they want? If trans ideology isn't sexist, then why would a man ever need to "transition" if either sex is completely free to act however they want? How can you claim to be opposing sexism when the whole basis for anyone feeling the need to transition, literally is sexism? How is gender identity" any different from what sexist stereotypes a person feels drawn to? Or simply their PERSONALITY? And, if sex and gender are separate, then why should "transitioning gender" allow MALES into FEMALE-ONLY spaces, they never changed, nor can they change, their sex. How is removing the rights of females to single-sex spaces progressive? How is centering male feelings over female rights "feminist"? If "trans identity" is not based on sexist stereotypes, then please explain what the magical "woman essence" is that men can feel, what specific thoughts and feelings can only women have? You must be able to articulate something that isn't simultaneously a sexist stereotype if it's about more than that. Why do you believe females do not deserve any spaces free of males? What is hateful about upholding female sex-based rights that were fought long and hard for?

15:38 There is something called gender euphoria, where a trans person does not experience gender dysphoria but, rather, they feel more comfortable as their true gender. I don't think I'm trans (at least I'm pretty sure I'm not), so I don't know what it is like to experience gender euphoria or dysphoria. While I can be certain that a trans person who experiences gender dysphoria cannot conform to a gender that isn't theirs without serious consequences, I don't know if that would be the case for a trans person who experiences gender euphoria. Can they cis-pass mentally (as in can they continue their existence neutrally while identifying with the gender that doesn't give them euphoria)? That probably depends on the person, but I don't think someone struggling with gender dysphoria is comparable to someone who wants to identify as another race.

@lynnhettrick7588

3 жыл бұрын

I think cis people do experience gender euphoria and that's how they know they are cis. Cis people have the privilege of not thinking about their gender. Even things like menstrual cycles. Having a period isn't fun, but it doesn't devastate me or cause gender dysphoria for me. I met someone on social media who came out as a trans women to her family. She was shunned, rejected by her family, and became homeless. She chose to pretend to be a man for the rest of her life rather than be rejected by her family. So yes, a trans person can pretend to be cis, but I don't think they can mentally/emotionally pass as cis without a lot of harm to themselves. It takes a huge toll on trans people to try to be their assigned gender.

@angel-.-

3 жыл бұрын

@@lynnhettrick7588 Hmmm. I was only really thinking about gender euphoria as it refers to trans people, but I guess that doesn't have to be the case. That makes sense.

@beep3242

3 жыл бұрын

From my experience, and from what I've seen others say, gender euphoria with no dysphoria in the trans community can be equated to ill fitting clothes. Maybe they're not your style anymore, maybe they're a little too tight, a little too loose. They don't make you miserable but they don't make you feel good either. You find some new clothes (gender identity, pronouns, expression, etc) that fit you and your body much better and it makes you extremely happy. You don't want to go back after you experience that happiness because you'll be forever aware of what you COULD have. You could go back and not experience too much pain (dysphoria), but it will always be vaguely "wrong" and uncomfortable. For me, part of my incentive to not go back to identifying as cis is that "just right" feeling my pronouns give me. I don't even pass that well, but the parts of my transness that I do show make me happy to be who I am instead of a "girl" I'm not. Admittedly I do have some dysphoria, specifically social and chest dysphoria, but mine is mild compared to other people's. Everything other than the chest dysphoria comes and goes to varying degrees. My dysphoria isn't as debilitating as some people I know, though, and I've seen similar things said from trans people who only have euphoria.

"As far as I understand, people don't choose the gender that they think is more fun or more comfortable and could switch back if they wanted to." Me: *sweating profusely in genderfluid*

@marisabarber9544

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly! He kind of falls back on the argument that dysphoria is necessary for trans identities to be valid, which doesnt account for gender fluidity as a valid identity.

@kid14346

3 жыл бұрын

@@marisabarber9544 My one forgivness is that Genderfluid and Genderqueer are less mainstream than transgender.

@marisabarber9544

3 жыл бұрын

@@kid14346 that's true but I think if his current argument doesnt account for gender fluidity, he should rework it

@kid14346

3 жыл бұрын

@@marisabarber9544 Hopefully us commenting has caught his attention and he learns and applies this in the future.

@greywolf7577

3 жыл бұрын

@@marisabarber9544 We live in a weird time in culture where we have removed all definitions for what gender is. We can't base gender on genitals because there are trans people who claim to be a member of the gender without having the genitals to match. We can't base gender on dress or hair style, because there are people of each gender that dress and have hair of every type. So gender becomes kind of meaningless. Which means we should get rid of it. Just focus on sex. You are male if you have testicles and female if you have ovaries. The scientific definitions give a better understanding of the reality of a person's identity than any social constructed identity.

A really important thing to bear in mind is that transracial identities don't seem to be a thing yet, but they may in the future. Being trans was at one point a rare novelty with few known cases also. And the argument that Rachel Dolezal or that caller with Italian ancestry can at any point reveal their heritage is exactly the point TERFs make against trans women. And, it's true to an extent - we could at any point detransition and gain male privileges again. So these arguments could just as easily invalidate trans people.

@haytakhaytak189

3 жыл бұрын

He addresses this in the video saying that trans people are born feeling as though they belong to a certain gender, but transracial people are not as race is a wholly social construct.

@personmcdudeguy

3 жыл бұрын

@@haytakhaytak189 then why do so many trans people want to abolish gender?

This is a really interesting discussion, and one I'm going to have to take away to think about more. An anecdote for you in the meantime - my family's Irish and pretty white, except for my uncle who used to be confused for having Indian ancestry a lot. He was still white, just had darker skin. It reminds me of when Irish immigrants first came to the USA, and they weren't considered white. I think there's an element of societal norms that plays into what race means at various points in time, but that's informed by a lot of other factors. Thanks T1J, lots to think about!

Very thoughtful argument. Love the attention to detail, citing different perspectives. This is the kind of dialog we need to navigate complex issues. I understand the point, that if an identity is internally constructed (as in gender and cultural identities), and it is okay to ask people to ignore my biological sex in favor of my internal gender identity, then why is it unreasonable to ask people to ignore my biological race in favor of my cultural identity? T1J handwaves this a little, citing an argument that just because two identities share some characteristics, it doesn't mean they are the same. True. But it doesn't mean they're not NOT the same, and if they share some characteristics, they are more likely to be to the same than things that don't. So that argument *by itself* doesn't really hold water. The argument that black people don't have the freedom to identify as white people lobbied in support of this doesn't really seem to follow either. Until recently, you could argue that transgender people lacked many of the freedoms to identify as their gender instead of their sex. This has changed. I think the underlying meat of the argument is this... why do we think it important (or polite or respectful) to allow people who are transgender to claim their gender identity, whether or not that aligns with their apparent biological sex? If the underlying reason is that to ignore someone's stated (or displayed) preference for their identity is rude or even harmful, why wouldn't that ethos apply to other internal identities that may or may not align with other's perceptions of the person? I don't think people who make the equivalence are arguing gender/sex and cultural identity/racial identity are the same, but they are questioning what is the moral or ethical grounds for treating one in one way and another differently? If there is no consistent ethical ground, then are essentially admitted that these issues are not moral but merely arbitrary social custom? So to take that argument on, you can't just handwave that they are different, you have to say specifically how they are different. Then you'd have to argue that the differences are relevant to the ethics of each case, ethically necessitating different approaches. And this is possible. For example, while sex and race are both observable it is true that bodies of different sexes are much more pronounced in behavior than bodies of different races. Although there are small biological differences that might be relevant to medicine, racial differences are largely of appearance. This fact could be argued both ways. The right will argue that because sexes are different in substantial ways (issues of muscle density and size in sports, for example), that it's a lot to swallow. If we are willing to let transwomen compete with biological women in sports, it ought to be LESS of an issue to let black, white, or other people pass as each other. On the other hand, you could argue that precisely because sex differences are so pronounced, dysphoria related to one's sex is a much more serious issue, and therefore necessitates more consideration than someone who feels their apparent race doesn't align with their cultural identity. Of course, this last point hinges on an assumption that dysphoria is the primary reason for our ethical behavior towards trans individuals. However, you come down on the issue of sex and gender, I think it is interesting how much power we give to the concept of race given that races as we define them in our society often have very little biological evidence behind them. The podcast Seeing White argues that the reason was largely its economic usefulness (it's easy to oppress minorities that look different, although enterprising homogenous cultures still find ways to create permanent underclasses). It was a technology used to divide and conquer the lower classes, where early farmer rebellions were multiracial, as whiteness and blackness became codified it reduced the number of poor folk working together to fight against the upper classes. I would never argue that we should be colorblind or forget the history of these... but I can't help seeing the deployment of race both on the right AND the left as a way of creating irreconcilable cultural differences that distract from the unfair systems largely perpetuated by the people in power against lower classes of all races. TL;DR, I completely understand how transracialism (on the part of white people) could be seen as irreverently appropriating a culture and history hard-won with unbelievable suffering, or as dodging the burden of historical responsibility for the sins of the fathers. And history is important, at least on the level that we don't want to repeat the bad parts of it and that it contributes to understanding our current state. But how invested do we want to be in the trauma of the past, how much do we want to hold people accountable for the sins of previous generations? And is our emphasis on this social tool that was designed for oppression actually helping persist that oppression today? To me it's less interesting on whether the construct of race/cultural identity should be treated in the same way as sex/gender identity, and more interesting whether the importance we invest in it and how we are using it is actually healing or hurting us. And I think there are people using it in healing ways, but I would say that politicians, media, and businesses generally use it as the exploitative tool is was when it was created to combat rebellious farmers.

The whole thing of "they don't have a choice. they have to affirm their inner gender identity" thing is a bit shaky in my opinion. What if a transracial person asserts that they are a particular race and that they need their body to affirm their identity? You can't prove otherwise even though we know that's silly. I am sympathetic to people with sex dysphoria, but when it comes down to it they're not very different as concepts.

@therainbowconnection6813

3 жыл бұрын

Yep that's basically my stance on it. I understand people on both camps, who are either pro or against trans people. The only ones I can't stand are the hypocrites who support one but not the other.

As I said in a recent video. You are whatever the police think you are... Everything else is secondary. Plan accordingly.

Fascinating. Love how you present these topics!

I remember having a class taught by the person who wrote the transracial article... definitely interesting to see that take presented and it took me back to some spirited conversations. I'll have to give that article a read

Adding another thing, I think where the comparison with transgender sort of makes sense, or approaches it, is that as an observer, it's not up to me to decide whether a trans person's gender identity is authentic. Honestly, NB doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it doesn't have to. So if we're going to take other people's testimony about their identity seriously even when we don't understand it, you see where I'm going. Race and gender are different, sure, but it's still pretty aggressive to tell someone to their face that their identity is bullshit.

@gamermapper

2 жыл бұрын

Race isn't eceb real anyway.

I had a friend in high school who was a white-presenting mixed kid who was also adopted in a white family. So his experience was very white but he was also definitely wrestling with it at the time, I lost track of him but I saw that he did his dissertation on the formation of racial identity in adolescents. I'm sorry I lost touch and also I wish he were engaging these arguments in public spaces because I'm sure he'd have some interesting insights, having both lived and studied the issue.

I always appreciate the level of nuance and thoughtfulness you bring to every video. Thanks for that!

great vid! I wasn't expecting such a clear presentation and so many points I hadn't heard before.

When that first voicemail said she was Italian i tell you i crumbled onto the floor

16:40 that IS how some trans people experience gender.

For another historical example I suggest reading the biography of Clarence King titled "Passing Strange: A Gilded Age Tale of Love and Deception Across the Color Line" by Martha A. Sandweiss

I wish I had teachers as patient and thoughtful as you in school, you're a fantastically gifted speaker and beautiful writer

I am white. However, I grew up with the story that I had Cherokee ancestry (my grandmother, to this day, insists her uncle did not look white because he was half). As an adult, I researched our background and couldn't find any evidence supporting this. But... because it's something I knew very early on, some of my experiences were influenced by it. Namely, when I learned history in school, the lessons on early American history were painful. The Trail of Tears wasn't 'a thing that happened to other people' but 'a thing that happened to my ancestors.' Of course, I know now that isn't true. But I think it gave me a very tiny sliver of experience that white people typically don't have. The kind of cold and indifferent way that white-committed atrocities are spoken about throughout American history. And I think it made me more empathetic as a person. To this day, I still view the concerns of various Native American tribes as more important than your average white person typically would.

"I'm a dark skinned chocolate boy" was not a sentence i expected to be so smooth T1J might be this generation's Shakespeare

another excellent video, thank you! it helped me think through the experience I've had in my life. I'm partially arab but basically look white and was raised without much direct cultural connection to that side of my family. I'm also from a small rural town where almost everyone has blonde hair and blue eyes. when I grew up there, I was treated as a different race because the way I looked (not to mention, post 9/11 small town hate) Now I live in a bigger city where I'm considered an average looking white person and I am treated very differently. it's been a weird wave to ride.

there are some good arguments on the discourses around Rachel Dolezal made by Adolph Reed and later on quoted by Ben Burgis in his new book Cancelling Comedians While the World Burns, if you are interested, T1J.

She didn't actually get anything out of this ruse, at least not materially, and she must have done a reasonably good job. I remember some interviews where the intervier was hoping to say "aha, so you got a good job by pretending to be black". But it turned out it was a volunteer position. In the end she's some nut that pretended to be black and got a volunteer job. At the very beginning, the NAACP didn't care at all. They said something like "So what? We don't discriminate at the NAACP". She probably didn't have to pretend to be black and just ask to be a volunteer. The whole situation is so ridiculous it almost seems unreal. It's like something you read on the Onion.

@greywolf7577

3 жыл бұрын

She changed her race because she honestly felt that her identity was black. It wasn't for personal gain. In reality, people can't change their race or gender, but it just goes to show how people can act like they can, both the transracial and the transsexual.

I loved this video, and it made me think quite a bit. I do wonder if this whole concept of transracialism is somehow spawned from the overwhelming tendency for "whiteness" to absorb cultures, like Irish or Greek or Sicilian, as soon as it is socially profitable to do so. Whiteness itself erases individuality in culture and throws those in it into some weird amorphous blob that does end up ringing hollow. That's really the only way my brain can comprehend this, though, so it's likely wrong!

@charliekahn4205

3 жыл бұрын

Now that I think about it, being a race is kinda like the Borg.

So glad I found you, very interesting video and something I’ve never really thought about. Thanks!

Speaking from my experience as a trans woman you're right about, at least for the overwhelming majority of trans people, the prospect of living as our assigned gender is intolerable. I was in my late 30's when I figured it out and realized that a lot of what had been driving my struggles with depression and whatnot for my entire post puberty life were dysphoria. I'd learned to manage my depression over the years to the point where I was at least mostly functional, though many trans people aren't lucky enough to live that long thanks to the suffering from dysphoria. But once I figured out I was a woman I couldn't ignore it. I couldn't manage my depression the same way I had. Because now I knew where that feeling that there was something fundamentally wrong with my life had been coming from and there was no putting that genie back in the bottle. I was lucky to have supportive friends, family, and co-workers so when I figured it out I moved fast on starting to transition socially and get things lined up to start medically transitioning. I had to move fast. Because even just continuing to pretend I was a man while I figured out how I was going to handle this became more unbeatable by the day. I'd experienced gender euphoria and actually being happy with who I was for the first time in my life and could not go back to feeling all right being the best I'd ever get. People who think we can just stay in the closet don't get it. Trans people die because of being unable to transition. It's miserable and cruel and unsustainable. Especially when the egg finally cracks. It's not a question of if you break but when. And on the note of people bringing up transgender people along with this sort of transracialism, I'll be honest: not once have I ever seen someone ask why the two are different honestly. Every single time it's been a case of a transphobe trying to show that "well if transracialism is ridiculous and not a thing then so is being transgender." I'm not going to say no one ever asks honestly because they want to explore and better understand the two things, I've just never seen it used that way. I've only ever seen it used as a weapon to attack the validity of trans people. I actually agree with you in the video on how it could be a genuinely interesting thing to think or talk about if only to get at the reasons they aren't similar but at this point even just hearing the comparison makes me cringe and get extremely uncomfortable. It's extremely hard for me to treat the person asking the question charitably. And my concern they're just transphobes has so far always been confirmed in short order. So if you ever see people in online discourse accusing anyone asking the question of being a transphobe that's why. Probably not true 100% of the time but definitely more often than not.