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I use both techniques when I ride. If I' m relaxing and taking it easy I slow-look-press&roll. If I'm out to have a fast romp through the curves I'm trail braking. Both are very useful and should be learned.

I learned that on the track years ago and use it on the street daily. There is room for both. When it's a blind corner, I trail brake all the time.

@jefffeudner408

5 жыл бұрын

Danger..always;)

Exactly Kevin, I’m a new rider and using slow, look, press, roll from my BRC and it does work. However, being new I have not fully mastered the going into the corner speed. So, going to fast and not using the brakes while in the corner I’ve crashed twice. Once turning right too fast at 25 mph and recently cornering turning left at 55 mph again by miss gauging the corner and entry speed which trying to recover as a new rider it didn’t go well. So I saw the video you referred to about trail breaking awhile back and since then I’ve had zero issues using it. Had this been taught in BRC I think I’d be better quipped. Thank you your videos are great.

I bought my first motorcycle in 1975, but until you posted a video on trail braking last year I had never understood or used it. Since then I've been working on it, not always with success. I'll explain. Last February I rented a Honda NC500X in Chiang Mai, Thailand, to ride the famous and beautiful Mae Hong Son loop. It takes 4 days to day the 300 mile loop through the lovely mountains of northern Thailand. The road is full of twisties and spectacular views. On the 3rd day I was just 22 km from my destination, going down a steep grade and into a sharp left corner. The road was dry--it's the dry season at that time of year, no rain had fallen in 3 months, so I felt safe working on trail braking. I slowed for the turn, looked left, kept a little brake pressure as I leaned over--and immediately lost the front wheel and went down. Fortunately I wasn't going very fast, but I nevertheless broke 2 ribs. Two Thai guys got me and the bike off the road (it really is the Land of Smiles and friendly people). As I stood up I felt the road surface--it was slick, like what I'd expect back home in Pennsylvania from black ice. I might have gone down anyway, but using any brake in that turn guaranteed a crash. My conclusion is the trail braking is a very useful technique, provided you can be sure that the road surface in the turn is good. But since you never can be certain of the surface on a public road, I'm very cautious about using trail braking again. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

@sail4life

5 жыл бұрын

This! Exactly. I've always thought trail braking was using up my reserve of safety. Getting closer to the bleeding edge. So yes, ideal for racers, unnecessary for road riders. If road safety is all about anticipation, why suddenly leave braking to the last millisecond? Why not have a safety margin for those dirty fouled roads, as opposed to clean tracks?

@dalejohnson9342

5 жыл бұрын

I also live most of the year in Thailand and can also attest to the slick roads. I have had a lot of practice on these roads and I now consider the pavement to be smooth and slick unless I can see some roughness in the surface of it. I count this as better safe than sorry. I also had a heck of a time teaching this to my wife here in Thailand. Now I am working on getting her to wear a helmet as Thai people hate the things and do not use them unless the police force them to and give them a monetary reminder that it is the law ( a few hundred baht ticket). They then take them off as soon as they get out of sight of the police, or just put them on their head and do not secure them. another thing they do if they wear their helmet is to leave the visor up and get their eye damaged by the bugs that they run into.

@starlordnetzero9633

4 жыл бұрын

I would also like to hear Kevin’s views. I also live in Northern Thailand and I completely appreciate your comments about the roads. I have been selectively using both front and at times rear trial braking depending on the corner-sometimes I don’t use it at all. In Northern Thailand there are a lot of technical turns on two land mountain roads steep up or down. Been very selective in using the front brake in those compared with relatively flat mountain turns or sweeping turns. Sorry to hear you broke your ribs. Not a way you want to end your day riding.

@fullnoeleko

3 жыл бұрын

Hello, Even on greasy road, trail braking work very well. But you have to adapt it for those conditions. (even more delicate on the brake, in a reduction of the action, very flexible and proportional to the angle) And I am quite sure that in the condition you have described, with slpr, you could also lost the front tire. On greasy road, I always use trail braking, for the same reason that on dry road: the extra load give me more traction. But of course with less pressure as I lean more. And in conclusion, as trail braking could work well in any condition (even on wet and greasy situations if using more carefully , and suit all the situations " what if" , you have only advantage to use it all the time. Thanks a lot for this great and usefull video.

After watching several videos on this subject you explained it far easier than all the technical junkies.

I used to always Slow Look Press and Roll, but now use trail braking more often. I feel it can help me control the bike better throughout the turn. Love the video. Thank you for all you do for the motorcycling community.

@garrymckinlay335

5 жыл бұрын

As usual, great advice. Thank you

I think trail braking is a great skill to have. I was of the belief originally that the quickest way to crash going around a bend or corner was to apply front brakes. As a result, on a few occasions I did come in a little bit hot and then made a turn wider than ideal. Fortunately, never so wide that I found myself in the wrong lane. But, since learning, and continuing to practice trail braking, I feel like I’m more prepared for the “what if” situation. Keep the great videos coming.

The best argument for trail braking IMO is that ultimately, you will probably need to brake while turning at some point and you don't want to learn how to in an emergency situation. I highly recommend to at least familiarize yourself with the maneuver even if you don't plan to use it on a regular basis and practice it once in a while like emergency braking because these two maneuvers might save your life some day.

@jomont4988

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly...

@jimmyb4982

3 жыл бұрын

Yep.

Trainer, gymkhana enthusiast and a newbie supermoto racer. Totally agree that slow-look... is a simple bulletproof technique that might not give best possible results, but will get newbie Rider through a corner. And trailbraking on the other side gives rider more options in a turn, but asks for more training and are less forgiving to input mistakes.

@rapid13

5 жыл бұрын

It actually limits your options. Think it through.

@adrianalexandrov7730

5 жыл бұрын

@@rapid13 well, I guess you'd have to walk me through. As I see is trailbraking adds option of precisely adjusting my speed while already leaned over. Since brake pads are already scrubbing the rotor I can make tiny adjustments that will lead to speed and trajectory changes. But with SLLR I need to make the brake pads touch the rotor first for before my inputs will be precise. Making that first touch gently without upsetting the suspension is hard, especially on a leaned bike when you have a lot to worry about. All other options that SLLR gives are still there in trailbraking as far as I know.

Thank you for making these video, they always leave some thoughts about my own skill and riding abilities ... I remember after my final test and the police officer gave me my license he told me "Now you have your license, now prove you can keep it" ... I stride to become a better motorcycle rider and I take one safty class each year just to shake off some dust after a long winter... ride safe!

There is definitely room for both. I myself use them both in a wide range of situations and am a better rider because of.

Been riding a year now. Still a newbie... I recently learned about trail braking, and started using it. I agree with you I feel way more prepared in a corer because of it.

Nice video; thanks. After watching around 8-10 videos explaining & demonstrating Trail Braking, i have started to understand the technique. Then i have practiced Trail Braking in each corner in my last 2000 km & i love it. I am getting better with it & i am getting more confidence. Now, i think that i am a better and safer rider since i have started to practice Trail Braking. Im still a beginner with this awesome technique & i will keep practicing it; so i will keep improve as a rider. Im watching all new videos about it. Cheers from Montreal.

Thank you Kevin, i really do appreciate your transparency in what saves lives.

When my dad taught me what little he knew about riding dirt bikes back in the 70s, I was told to avoid the front brake. Then, many years later, I took the MSF course and learned the importance of the front brake for street riding. I was also taught slow - look - press - roll, and it is still a good technique to a point. But I'm glad I found information about trail braking very early on, because in the real world - where blind corners, stalled vehicles, downed trees, and other hazards exist - being afraid of the front brake while leaning is a bad and unsafe thing. MSF would probably be best served by starting with SLPR, but then adding the trail braking instruction to the intermediate course.

Human error can be deadly. When I put my leg over the bike, I have no ego. Let's admit that we do not practice enough, and keep with the simple techniques. We have all seen professional golfers miss an easy put, slow the entry speed, don't be that golfer having a bad day.

A couple of days ago I was very happy I was using trail breaking. I was going through a corner and someone had knocked a construction sign into the lane I was using. It allowed me to adjust my speed and maneuver around the sign.

When I learned years ago, my instructor used a different way to remember, SLLS - Slow, Look, Lean, Speed. Just always remembered that. I've found I've been trail breaking more and more over the years. Not sure how/when I started but it just came naturally.

I believe that trail braking is a better technique than the Slow, Look, Press, Roll technique we teach in the BRC but that it should not be taught in the BRC. As Kevin mentioned the vast majority of students that take the BRC are there for one reason only and that is to get their motorcycle endorsement. My concern is that they will look at trail braking as a way to ride faster into a corner and get themselves in trouble in a hurry. I would rather emphasize slowing first, to a new rider, in the hopes that they will put themselves at less risk. Those students that are committed to advancing their skills are the ones that typically seek more training. Just my opinion.

@russellborn515

5 жыл бұрын

I learned about trail braking a couple months ago, have been practicing a lot, and feel it's an important tool for a rider to have. BUT, I don't see how to fit it in to a weekend beginner course that's taught in a parking lot. Our local advanced course usually gets cancelled due to low enrollment, maybe there should be a mandatory follow-up course for riders 6 months after they get their endorsement.

@adrianalexandrov7730

5 жыл бұрын

There's nice rule from British roadcraft: you should always be able to safely stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road. That might solve the problem riders going into a turn too hot. But the problem of a person overestimating own abilities... That I don't know how to solve

@rondobrondo

2 жыл бұрын

We should teach competency, not incompetency. period

I think videos like this would benefit more if graphics were involved. For instance, it would be nice to see an overlay of tb vs normal training. At what point in a curve, bend, or turn would they separate, what point do you begin release, what point vs Apex would you be off brake? Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words!

@jomont4988

4 жыл бұрын

I may be wrong, but for me the apex is when i can finally see the way out of the curve. At the point that i would roll on the throttle? I am open to criticism. I want to learn

@marcmondragone3452

2 жыл бұрын

That’s exactly what these videos need. More graphics and images to better visualize all the details.

@rondobrondo

2 жыл бұрын

Go watch canyonchasers, they are much better at explaining this and also at visualizing the techniques on screen

@mildyproductive9726

2 жыл бұрын

It's pretty simple. Ideally, you release all brakes by the time you reach maximum lean angle for the corner. And you start to gradually accelerate at the point your exit start to open out, generally where you aim to hit the inside line, which most people refer to as the apex. In most corners you will reach the maximum lean angle (where you stop leaning any deeper) before you reach the apex. So you don't necessarily transition directly from braking to acceleration. There is typically some pause while you're doing not much of either, in the middle of the corner, while you hold that lean angle. Now you're "on your line." In extended corners that wrap around say 180 degrees, you'll be in this phase for a lot of the corner. It's this phase "in the middle" where some folks argue to accelerate all the way through. Some argue to hold light brakes all the way through. But some folks realize you ought to strive to enter the corner at the speed where you will not want to do either. Just maintain neutral throttle (and optionally you can keep brakes covered/dragging, too if you like to do that and call it trail braking.)

@garychandler4296

2 жыл бұрын

@@mildyproductive9726 NOW I can picture it, and it sounds pretty much what I do on my performance-modded Harley (yes Skippy; it struts) except I've never been sure of what to do to go quickly from braking to throttle...but I see we have to just accept that they can't be close in the longer curves. Thanx man! 😎

I've been waiting on this one! ❤️ I believe in practicing both. Knowing when to use one or the other comes with experience, and if practiced, will become almost instinctive. Having not ridden in years, things are coming back to me quicker, as I hear you giving instruction as I ride. It's also helping me unlearn old bad habits! Thank you for all you do, brother!

I watch one of your videos every weekend before starting my ride. Like an Induction. Thank you.

This is an interesting discussion. I learned the slow, look, roll technique as well in the MSF course, but became mindful one day that I was trail breaking. At that time, I didn't know anything about trail breaking and kept trying to change my cornering using the MSF technique, but it didn't feel natural to me. I stumbled on some videos about trail breaking and find it to be better for me in most of my daily riding situations. Honestly, I can't remember which technique I used during my riding test - but I was asked to become an instructor, so, there's that. lol

An experienced rider has to have every trick available up his sleeve, practice them often so the skills don't get rusty, and most importantly understand the physics of motorcycle handling and apply this knowledge to choose the most appropriate technique. Then the rider will be much safer in any possible situation on the road. I would say that trail braking is more advanced technique than slow-look-press-roll, and it's possible that not every novice rider can quickly and safely get the hang of it. So it's probably wise that MSF doesn't teach it to novices. But for an experienced rider, who has explored the feel and limits of his motorcycle it can be a very useful and noone should neglect it no matter what type of motorcycle they ride. A small tip to every person out there rider or not: Never stop learning, never assume you know everything you need to know, there is always room for progress.

As a Dirt rider I learned as a young rider to use this technique in corners to keep the front wheel in the rut and bassically to drag the brake through the corner for this reason. I guess until the conversation gained more traction recently about using this on the road I never realised I had been doing this all along. I ride on the road with the expectation that I need to be prepared to react to anything (the old motto prepare for the worst and pray for the best.) Thanks for covering this topic, Ride safe.

I am a motorcycle driver with about thirty years of experience on motorcycles from the Netherlands. I wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos, they are well put together, responsible, informative and fun. Thanks Kevin...

@MCrider

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Marc. 👍🏻👍🏻🏍

I learned to ride in a Gulf Coast city. The slow for entry speed, countersteer and lean/accelerate worked perfectly there. Few blind turns, few drivers crossing the line in your face. Stacked S curves and hairpins didn't exist. I can't recall a curve I couldn't see all the way through. Most people then rode heavy Harley's, Harley cops taught my class, scored my practical... However I now live on Ft Mountain, GA near Blood Mountain and the various TN/NC "interesting" roads. Heck I have a gravel hairpin on a grade in my driveway. For us, gentle trail braking is pretty much required as well as strategic shifting. As you come down a 15% grade into five stacked curves, you'd have to enter the first curve at 10mph staying in low gear to not be flying too fast by the 5th entrance, if you don't touch your brake. Add to that my ride home last night of only 6 miles. Two separate dear in my lane, possum, and a baby coyote that just sauntered out to look at my headlights. My two fingers were gently ready on that lever the whole time. So I would say there is no one method for all roads, bikes and riders. Long rake cruisers are different than short stance sports, with the retro standards in the middle. I have found that aggressive disk brakes are both a blessing and a curse to new riders. We have ABS because disk can lock you up too easily in a scare or noob ride. Older drums last forever and you have to Hulk Hands on the cable ones or literally stand on the brake pedal to lock up the wheel with those older designs. I like riders beginning on starter bikes that have simple disk fronts and older drum rears with 25-30hp. I never see them piled up on a rocky cliff and ditch shoulder. It is always the state of the art brand new carver/track bike or an oversized for the rider skill sofa bike (two wheel car) up here that keeps the EMTs busy.

I scored a 100 on my MSF test. I expected the course to be terrible, but that licensing course was the best source of information on traffic safety I'd ever seen. It was incredibly helpful. The reason I sought out and subscribed to MC Rider is that I was stunned by how much I had to learn.

I kept avoiding watching this because I saw the title and thought. Well that's easy. It depends on the road, the bike, you, and conditions. But here you prove me wrong with another perspective and excellent video.

Ok, now get out of my head 🤓...I have recently been talking with a friend about this very subject and for the last few days I’ve been trying to analyze which technique I use the most. It’s been interesting because turning is automatic and I hadn’t really thought about how I was performing it. Too me, it feels that I do more trail braking or at least a combination of the two. Something like look-brake-press-roll... brake is activated to about the apex as I roll on throttle brake is released. I had my friend follow me as I tried to ride with my body (and not let my mind get in the way..🤪) and there were times he said that brake light was on throughout the tighter turns. My conclusion is, it’s in the “look” step, if I can see the apex or anticipate the turn radius there is less trail braking. The turns that are tighter and more concealed get more trail brake. I also noticed that the speed I was carrying had a big effect on technique and how much trail brake I used.

I agree with Dennis Wallace below. I use both - all the time. Especially when coming off of a higher speed roadway - and onto a slower speed roadway (ie: entering my subdivision from a main thoroughfare) ESPECIALLY when someone is right on my tail... Even with blinkers going, and backed up with hand signals well before the turn - more times than not (in this situation) "there ain't no SLOW LOOK PRESS AND ROLL"....(sorry for the purposeful grammar slip) :-) Getting to a cornering speed of (say) 20 MPH before the turn while traffic behind you is approaching at(say) 50+MPH - I just don't feel is safe. AT ALL !!!! - I'll brake through the corner in these instances every time. …, and Kevin - been riding for over 50 years - for what that's worth Kevin - keep up the amazing work. No matter how much you "think" you know - you always teach us something new - or at least makes us think harder about it.

Its evolving and both technics are beneficial. I personally use trail breaking most often.

Kevin, thank you again. :) I appreciate your unbiased and professional views, presentations, and skills. Your video's help me continue to learn way past basic training I got at the Highway Patrol sponsored training, after a 20 year break. It's been 3 years now and I keep watching your tips and listen to your perspectives, and practicing and learning.

I don’t know that I am an advanced rider but I have been doing it a long time. I learn from all of these videos some small lessons some big ones. Our skills & technique should always evolve & we should never rigidly adhere to any one technique. Keep up the good work

Love Love Love this video, Kevin! Proper motorcycle techniques are all about controlling the suspension, whether you are using the throttle or brakes. Trail-braking allows you to compress the forks once as you are trading braking g-force for cornering g-forces. Letting off the brake before the turn allows the forks to extend only to be compressed again in the turn causing a pogo effect. This should be taught as soon as the basics are mastered for it's too important a skill to give up. And you don't have to be a speed demon to benefit from it. My KLR 650 was a pogo stick on two wheels and it benefited greatly from trail-braking.

I have a 2018 GSXR1000R, and am a member of Eagle Rider. I rented my first HD UltraGlide over the weekend through the twistys in Arkansas. I used the technique of doing all your braking "before" the turn and actually giving it throttle during and exit of the turn. Worked just as great on a 900 lb bagger as it does on my 440lb Gixxer.

I've rode with people that didn't get the concept of trail breaking and just assumed I was a bad rider trail braking in the tighter corners. I was ahead in the group and guys behind me panicked when the seen my brake light come on but my speed wasnt reduced. Definitely sending them this video.

I love your videos and as a new rider I want to learn everything! I think I actually use both just never thought about it till now. Thank you for this lesson.

I left my BRC course, got a linked ABS bike, and gravitated to trail braking over the next 6 months without knowing what it was. It just felt natural and make sense to me. Don’t ask me why. And while we’re here the Canyon Chasers channel has a top notch video on Trail Braking!

Have seen countless KZread titles on "trail braking" but never bothered to click on them. THANKS for the info!

This is great for street. Perfect street explanation for basic trail braking.some guys I know refuse to even touch the brakes in a curve. If something happens like a wolverine shows up in the curve then they have to first gradually compress the forks and completely straighten the bike before they can stop. By then that wolverine messed them up real bad,

Kevin, great lesson, thanks, I will give this Technic a try, the next time I am out.

Good point regarding the different types of new riders.

I'm a new rider thanks for the information wish i could attend your class.

I love your videos, began watching 3 years ago when I got my endorsement and bike. I remember the method taught in my class provided by Harley Davidson in Boise. It was the slow look press roll, however I have been using trail breaking just as what I use more often by adapting to my riding style. I didn't know it was a Technic just what I have evolved into my riding style.

A great question! I have been on bikes since 1964, on the road since 1966. In my opinion, the modern training is not flexible enough to encourage new riders to pass through the 'test mentality'. And I have had plenty of arguments on-line with your 'competitors' about this. I think you have raised a very valid point. However, how we get it over is not an easy task! Keep up the good work.

I have been using TB since your first video on it. Been very beneficial.

I took the MSF course many years ago and while it's good for basic control I found it really lacks any real world preparation for riding in traffic. We can all ride around a parking lot or a race track for days and the situation never changes. The turns are always the same, the landscape, etc., but the real world road riding is unpredictable, even on the roads we know well.

I am riding now for two and a half years. I did not get any training but did read a lot together with watching a lot of videos, including yours. I did start with the "slow - look - press - roll" thing but just could not get any better. Then after about three months I started to practice trail braking and quickly got much better with my riding. Now it is so natural to me that I do it without thinking or realising that I am doing it. Guys behind me say that my brake light is on during the first part of the corners in about every turn. To me, trail braking is the better way.

When I took my MSF class here in WA, it was my VERY FIRST TIME on a motorcycle. No dirt bikes or off roading ever. I had the benefit of growing up in Holland though, and you basically ride out of the womb on a bicycle when you're Dutch. Many of the MSF students are not at all savvy on the bike, have just learned to handle a bunch of new controls, many that need to be used simultaneously and in moderation, and are in no way in complete control of the controls and therefore the bike. Yes, trail braking is great and definitely something every rider should learn, but not as the very first thing. Develop fluency on the bike, get comfortable and more training, and only then move on. It should be learned as early as possible, but not at the time when people are still thinking about how to shift and more likely to instantly grab a handful of brake and make a slide in the turn.

@garyhalsey7693

5 жыл бұрын

hillie47 agreed! I have been riding on and off since 1990 but have only just passed my test here in the UK. I was always taught that you never brake in a corner and was taught using slow look press roll. I am a fairly competent rider but will definitely learn trail braking once I am fully confident in what my chosen ride can do and more importantly, what I can do on it!! There is definitely room for both but trail braking seems to me to be a more advanced technique!!

@hillie47

5 жыл бұрын

@@garyhalsey7693 smart! I think trail braking needs you to be fluent in a way in braking. Grabbing a full hand of brake is less of an issue when you're still upright slowing down before a turn. Mid turn in a lean, you're getting in a lot of trouble quicker. :)

Always learn something every Friday from Kevin.

I started mountain biking years ago with no training. I used trail braking all the time instinctively, although I didn't know it was called that. When I took my MSF class 3 years ago, it was hard to change to the slow, look, press and roll technique. Sometimes I found myself in a turn that was sharper or extended longer than I expected going in. This lead to some pretty awkward turns. Also, rolling on the throttle in too high a gear, or in a downhill turn lead to exiting at too high a speed. I compensated by extreme slowing before the turn, but that can be awkward as well if you go too slow to countersteer. I started using the trail braking technique a couple months ago, and I feel I am managing my speed better and have more confidence. It's easier to roll on the throttle when you can see a clear exit from the turn instead of hoping that you judged the corner properly going in. Thanks for the video.

I am riding for years. I am still learning. Thank you.

Everything you said sounded well balanced and thought out. I am of the old school but now learning trail braking through you tube but mostly Yamaha Champ School.

I use both techniques. But trailbreaking i do very lightly off and on. Gradually using it more and more. To be engaged in good control if somethingn pops up. If its an unfamiliar curve i will gently use it and be ready and anticipating the curve to be sharper than i thought.. thankyou for your videos..

Spot on. I am a humble student and rider, and in my opinion, it is going to be easier for MSF instructors stress levels to say that "in this course, we will use slow look press and roll." However, you're encouraged to progress as a rider and learn trail braking. I think this is true after having spoken to many that have taken, or were taking the BRC. Some of them have no place on a motorized two-wheel vehicle when they show up, let's be honest. So why then, expect instructors to teach fine motor skills at that time?

Great topic... Will you being doing some more demo videos on this?

This is my 3rd season riding a motorcycle and I've been practicing trail braking and I've been feeling more confident going into the corners versus the slow/look/press/and roll

In addition to highly motivated and 'just give the paper' students (which, incidentally, describes ALL students of every topic in my experience) there is also talent. Some people take to an activity because they have an innate talent, what we might call a 'knack' for it. Riding is no different. I have no idea if I'm one of those, but I've been doing it on the strength of a really solid MSF Basic Rider course for many years. Maybe time for another class, just to be sure I've got it.

Been wanting this video from you, wishes do come true. Now I'll go practice some trail braking. Cheers!

I've been practicing trail braking using both front and rear. I'm slowly becoming comfortable with it, definitely allows for quicker cornering, although I like the idea of being ready to brake due to something blind in the corner. I'm middle aged and still learning. Thanks for the topic MCrider!

I wish I had learned this when I got my first bike.

I'm still learning after 34 years of riding. Your right about some students just wanting to get their license and for Newbies that can be overwhelming enough with just the basics. If they stop learning after getting their license they really aren't passionate riders and will probably quit riding anyway. Learning the nuances of trailing the brake is a more advanced technique that will be too much for most new riders but once comfortable with basic skills can more easily understand and apply trail braking etc. Teaching my wife to ride a scooter right now and I'm teaching her to get used to how much pressure she can apply to front brake in a straight line as I know that she could still easily panic and end up on her face if leaned over in a turn.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Those that are really interested in riding well should and will use trail braking. The casual, "I want to be cool", "whatever" riders are probably better off with the traditional approach. Great video! Yeah, trail braking for me. Thank you!

As with counter steering, I've also been trail braking without knowing they had names! I had not considered increased contact patch or reduced rake until you pointed it out. Thank you! Idea for the future: The slowing-down of our reaction times as we age. I'm 71.

Just to clarify, Amontons' Second Law of friction says: ''The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact'' That means, during trail breaking we get more traction from the front tire not because of bigger contact patch but because of the weight is shifted forward. Other than that, great video

When I learnt driving both bikes and cars, in late sixties, braking into the bends was clearly forbidden. I started trail braking with cars, then applied it to a Bandit 1250 which was not so willing to lean. Since then apply both techniques, depending on the situation. Abs too makes trail braking much easier than in the past

I use both. Good way of learning trail braking is to load the front suspension using the front brake while going in a straight line. Then start on gentle curves while skill and confidence builds.

@The63chicky

5 жыл бұрын

If you've gone into a corner using trail braking and you need to slow down (for whatever reason), is it safe to apply further front brake pressure because you've already loaded the front brake? Or not?

Good topic Kevin! I got Lee Parks book, _Total Control_ a few weeks ago and have been working on my trail braking in large parking lots, then later on mountain road twisties. On downhill turns, I'm liking the results. A good tool in the toolbox IMO. 🏍

@wobblysauce

5 жыл бұрын

That it is... both have their uses.

@rapid13

5 жыл бұрын

I don't mean to be rude, but if you're trail braking down hill, you're asking for trouble.

@Robnord1

5 жыл бұрын

@@rapid13 Careful dude, your ignorance is showing. We have real mountains here in WA, and uphill vs downhill technique varies considerably.

@rapid13

5 жыл бұрын

@@Robnord1 You assume that because I have an OSU avatar that I don't know mountains. You are wrong. I grew up in So Cal riding Mulholland and Topanga and Palomar and Ortega and the Crest and Glendora Mtn Road. I lived in San Jose and rode Hwy 9 and 35 and Mt Hamilton and Mines Rd. I was trying to be polite, but if that's not your preference, let's be blunt: trail braking downhill is a rookie move. All that means is you can't think ahead far enough to be prepared so you think braking will make up for your lack of skill, your inability to be setup before the turn. Instead of being ahead of the road, you're behind and now you're adding MORE weight to the smaller contact patch and using up even more available traction. And if you're slowing down enough to not worry about traction, then you're going so slow they guy behind you who actually knows how to ride is getting pissed at you for parking it in the fun bits.

@Robnord1

5 жыл бұрын

@@rapid13 Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make it true. Trail braking is commonly used going downhill by folks who are in fact experienced advanced riding skills instructors. For an example see "Road Strategy: High Speed Cornering Palomar Mountain" by MotoJitsu (Greg Widmar). Be sure to leave a comment for Greg, who also goes by the handle 'Fast Eddie'. He invites critique in the comments.

Hi Kevin. Another great video. Both techniques have their place. As bike manufacturers adopt more and more tech, they help us ride safer. But, to me, its always first principles ... use the best technique for the conditions you find yourself in. Cheers

As a lifelong assertive track and street rider on sport bikes (mostly), I have been unconsciously Trail Brake riding since the 70's. I intuitively felt better control and traction and it helped me steer with the "rear wheel" technique. My quadury now is linked Brembo ABS on my Moto Guzzi MGX-21. Front brake is RF caliper only and rear brake is LF and Rear only. Some advocate to disable the ABS to have more predictable braking. And there is plenty of brakes on this bike. As a long time rider with decent muscle memory and well over 500K miles experience (not all horizontal) I would welcome other opinions.

Just recently heard of this! Very interesting...Thanks!!

I'm a fairly new rider, but I started doing trail braking quite naturally before it became a "thing" on KZread. I adopted it based on my experience with driving a car. It is similar to the principles as for a car; brake into the turn to transfer weight giving more cornering traction to the front tire(s), and "setting" the suspension. Rolling on the throttle (on a bike) in a turn then naturally rolls the fingers off the front brake. It's an easier and more natural transition on a bike than in a car, imo. Trail braking has helped my moto cornering ability and confidence tremendously.

Trail break all the way. I turn into my Crescent every day. There are kids playing basketball almost every day. Can’t see then until you are in the corner. Trail breaking allows me to easily stop in an instant. Allowing the young star to complete his lay up. Everyone safe. Everyone happy.

Both techniques should be part of your skill set. I personally don't use trail breaking all the time but find it an excellent way to take blind corners and the tighter ones that can somtimes suprise you out on the road. It's a faster but more importantly safer way to corner a motorcycle.

I believe this technique / skill is absolutely essential from the outset. I was not taught this early on either but coming across other riders and some of them pro instructors I began learning about additional skill level writing techniques and this was one of them. I am very happy that I did learn about it because it has come in handy a few times when approaching the Apex of a curve and finding sand or gravel right on your track I needing to alter it to avoid and the only option is to slow it down to be able to safely make that track change. I was out again just a couple of days ago and specifically working on that every time I came to a curve even though there were no obstructions. It is something you need to practice regularly so that it it's available to you the moment you need it

@russellborn515

5 жыл бұрын

Also handy if you're on the inside lane on a blind curve and find a truck using half your lane. Good luck dodging that bullet if you're rolling on the throttle.

@2bikemikesguitartopics145

5 жыл бұрын

@@russellborn515 Amen

Its good to know how to trail brake for when you screw up and for emergencies, but in the real world its best to be cautious and go into the corner at the appropriate speed. If you want to pretend you're Rossi, TAKE IT TO THE TRACK!

@RoadcraftNottingham

5 жыл бұрын

Good points.

@Adrenalean767

5 жыл бұрын

How is trail braking gonna help in an emergency?

@SDMacMan

5 жыл бұрын

@@Adrenalean767 are you being facetious or is this a serious question? If you learn how to trail brake and practice it often, you'll know how much you can push your front-end in the case of an emergency, I.e. something in the middle of the road around a bend. That's how.

@Adrenalean767

5 жыл бұрын

@@SDMacMan I don't see the need for it

I have learned to stay on the front brake well after I reach the apex of the turn . I also have learned to go further into the corner before I apply very much lean to the bike . I find that when I lean , it works better if the front brake is applied slightly , and that if I move my butt just a tiny bit to the inside of the turn side of the seat . The one thing that I have learned for sure , no matter what method you apply , you have to be comfortable enough to not even think about it , just do it ! I have practiced this maneuver ever time I get on my bike these days , and find that I have to apply very little thought about how to do it . This leaves my brain more time to actually look at the corner and search for hazards more freely ! I find that I am getting around corners much quicker than before and with more ease and safety ! I would like to thank you for your recommendations and videos that you are sharing !

As a person who has been riding since about 1970 I can say that both types of braking in corners is good to know. Each one as a different approach, but each is designed to get you through the corner safely.

Yep. Don’t trail brake downhill on dirt. Otherwise..... ; ) The only “downside” I can see is the very slightly increased wear of front brake pads, no problem. It’s the only way to manage the tire/road friction and dynamic front/rear weight distribution in detail. It’s adaptable to wet, etc. Dirt, no. But some road condition-defined variant of “the pace” is the real deal for any paved road. You’ll smooth up and maybe even “accidentally” go faster while looking and feeling slower. Your other video on this is very clear about how to start and practice, really good. It transforms riding in my opinion. I’ve been riding since 1968 (unfortunately) and I feel like I re-learned how to ride in about 2009 or so by absorbing this technique at last. Late bloomer. Ieanatsch really should be listened to and so should you be listened to. Thanks for putting it out there, I have had some really strange discussions with naysayers on this topic. I never argue with folks, this is great to see.

Excellent videos

2:50 My MSF instructors went beyond course then by helping with a little beyond slow, look, press and roll. Students had to push for it. They wanted to do the official things only so they talked about seeing a hazard and looking to where you want to go as you've taught looking at the hazard will get you to ride into it. They explained trail braking but since they didn't teach it in the practicals, I couldn't follow the concept. Only now am I remembering it at all, lol.

Dennis' comments below are spot on, both methods have their place and need to be taught.

I've recently learned about, and how to trail brake. It has greatly increased my safety and confidence in the curves. Relying on engine braking alone to continue slowing while entering curves is a bad idea because that braking force diminishes as RPMs drop. For example: You close the throttle at 4000 RPM. By 3000 RPM you have only 56% the slowing force, thus rate of deceleration. That initial forward G you feel when you close the throttle is deceiving. Thank you so much for all your videos.

Trail braking is the only way to go. I have been doing it for decades and it just works great.

I have used trail braking for a while. I was actually surprised the first time I needed it, because I used it naturally. It was when a car surprised me by running wide in the corner, from oncoming traffic and ended up on my shoulder side. Using it when I was less skilled would have been too much for me, in the beginning. I really do not need it much on a daily, because most corners have a suggestive speed limit. But I find myself practicing it now. Now I am trying to wrap my head around keeping myself from grabbing front break in slow speed maneuvers, because I trained myself to keep that hand off the brake. Maybe it is not a thing.

I think there are appropriate applications for each skillset. There is a time and a place for everything and skills on a motorcycle are not an exception.

I watched this after a three hour ride. I rcv'd the notification about it this morning but didn't watch it. I did however notice that some of the curves are 25mph hairpins, that I used trail braking more the other s.l.p.r. felt way more comfortable with the trail braking. Kevin understand I live in Southern West Virginia and we have some curves are true switchbacks, or hairpins. I mean first gear curves and mtns, with 10-12 % grades. Ride here, ride anywhere. Lol

Every new (and old) riders should be required to watch all of your videos

I know this is an old video but I'm just seeing it today. I did take the MSF BRC but it was after a 20 year hiatus from riding and after being back on a bike for 6 months with a permit. So, the course was, different for me than for a new rider but I took it because in my state it is the easiest and cheapest way to obtain your endorsement. Anyway, I was already an advanced DRIVER at high speeds, and so I think that trail-breaking evolved naturally into my riding because it shared some aspects of high speed cornering in a car. There are MANY differences, of course, but trail breaking was still much more natural for me. That's my 2 cents, and I doubt it is worth that. -BT

I think thats its easy to understand that a racing newbie [ not necessarily a rider new to motorcycling newbie ] someone with some experience of motorcycling can go out on a race track with the least dangers of any tarmac or concrete or whatever and learn in two days how to trail brake. Seeing that most race tracks are indeed designed to be full of bends, maybe 5 to 7 bends per circuit and a few straights then having gone round and round them hundreds of times in two days and understanding the important points of when and where to brake on approach one will get the message about trail braking and if not one should give up trying to be a racer. All club racers through to world class racing use this technique as they have to initially remove a lot of speed fast but still maintain some positive speed through the bend in order to still maintain a lead into a corner and continue to keep that competitive lead through it. We must also be aware that the track is specially designed for racing and is therefore a better tarmac or concrete than on our roads and that in racing most racing bikes have special racing tyres that with the heat generated by them and the tarmac have a degree of grip that is far superior to anything that we can obtain on our road systems.. Something a touring bike doesn't have. Unfortunately with using trail braking there are still a of of fall offs usually with a lack of grip onto the front tyre leading to slide offs but when the change is made at or after the apex to let off the brake and the suspension relaxes at that time if the power is put onto the rear wheel almost simultaneously one can end up with a more serious incident and that is a high side. Its further interesting to note what was said about having used trail braking for a long time and not having to make use of it on bends.presumably to avoid some potential hazard. So one has no knowledge of whether it comes in useful or not in such a situation but believes what they have been told by others and that information comes basically from the track trainers . Isn't it better to prevent something from happening rather than leaving it to fate and having to deal with it head on so to speak . Isn't training primarily about identifying and acknowledging possible dangers and reducing risk before anything happens rather than when it's possibly too late. We cannot place our trainees into dangerous situations [ wish that we could ] but only advise them of the possible dangers and risks and try with pre training to eliminate or at least mitigate injury to themselves or others. I don't think one can justify trail braking for that reason. Maybe these matters will benefit from discussion which is what you asked for.

I practice trail braking and find it gives me a better feeling through the first half of the corner. But I'm a "newbie" with maybe 15K miles under my belt. I ride a muscle cruiser, the Yamaha Warrior 1700. I have a friend in his 50's who has been riding since his teens, probably has around 300K street miles or more under his belt, and he rides an adventure bike, BMW 1200 GS, and rides all over the USA on the back two lane roads and off road. Has done ALL the popular "twisties" (tail of the dragon, Blue Ridge, devils backbone, three twisted sisters, etc.) in the smokey mountains, the Ozarks, and Colorado......... I talked to him about trail braking and he has never used it and doesn't think it is necessary. He said as long as you enter the turn in a low enough gear you are good. I and many friends have ridden with him and none of us can keep up with him through the turns. This guy and that BMW appears to be on rails with no brake light on through the corners.......

Learned how to do it years ago riding mx bikes and having my son train with some of the pro riders around here. Like Ricky Parker and Trampas Parker and others that trained with them. It just happens now no thought it just comes naturally.

I have been riding for over 50 years and can tell you that I think the most important skills for any rider to learn is their own limitations. So many riders ride over their skill level. I know personally there are days when I feel more connected to the motorcycle. What I have learned over the 100s of thousands of miles I have ridden is not push on the days I'm not connecting with the bike and the road.

I use old way of doing turns. But i can see where the trail braking way would benefit a ride as well . I think as rider we should be open all technique of riding ,as long as they help us be safer on the road. I will go and try the trail braking in my church parking lot and see how it works.Thank you for what you are doing ,your show can help a lot of riders.

Trail braking has been around as long as motorcycles have existed. I find it weird how it being talked about like it's this new idea that is somehow revolutionary. The thing I noticed is that it's more natural to use trail braking. I am a self taught rider who didn't take an MSF course till I had already established my riding habits (good and bad). I had always used trail braking and found the MSF approach to feel like it's an overly cautious approach to riding where it's better to go too slow than too fast or even just the right speed. It kind of feels like their content is designed for the rider who is most incompetent and slow to learn. Two dangerous misconceptions I see about trail braking is 1 it's about the rear brake and 2 everyone seems to think it involves a lot of brake pressure. Both are wrong but so wide spread it scary. The funny side to it is that some riders I know that caution against it use it. Specifically a friend who was a coach for the MSF. I pointed out his brake lights were always on in most turns he took. He told me that it wasn't trail braking because he was only applying a very small amount of pressure. Needless to say we sat down and had a long talk.

I live in West Virginia I think you need them both you see we don't have a straight roads or good ones

Hi. Techniques are always evolving. Thoughts about trail braking can become a distraction from learning to ride safely. It has a place, after good foundation skills and techniques are etched into muscle memory. A smooth dry clean grippy and familiar patch of road like a racetrack or practise area, is different to the endlessly variable conditions encountered on the street. In corners I've had to avoid (or manoeuvre) sand/dirt/gravel, diesel, ropes, sticks and twigs, paint, water, engine coolant, gusts of wind, surface changes, ruts, potholes, people and/or vehicles, and probably some more that I can't remember. Any one of those 'surprises' could have had me and bike straight on the bitumen, or off into the bush or oncoming traffic if not concentrating on getting through the corner safely. Peace.

I had a very bad wreck about three years ago. Inexperienced rider on much more bike than I should have been. Almost 90° curve that was not marked, no signs at all. Entered the curve way too fast. Slammed straight into a guardrail. Bike destroyed. I spent the next 5 days in TICU and another two weeks in rehab just learning to move myself to and function from a wheelchair. I took the MSF Basic course two weeks ago. I did very well with the emergency straight line braking (can't imagine why I'd wanna know that). The closest we got to trail braking was the extremely brief gradual stop in a curve. With the emergency straight line braking, I might possibly have been able to stop before hitting that rail. Maybe. Probably would not have been injured nearly as bad. With trail braking, I think I could have made it through. I personally believe this should be taught as a basic skill. I get that there are different riders with different attitudes but, regardless of attitude. we all face AND present the same dangers to ourselves and others. If a person is going to take a safety and skills class then they should be taught skills that will help them survive AND not hurt or kill others. The basic riders course doesn't give you the skills to be safe. It gives you the tools and knowledge you need to go practice those skills and develop into a safe, skilled rider. The question isn't should this be taught to beginners... it's why isn't it being taught to them already? I can promise you that I'm making it my mission to learn this now!