Great Video.... I love the Deliberate and No Non-Sense approach to your approach to these subjects!!!! I have come in contact with similar people and I have learned that there are "Just some folks that think they know it all... Will do NOTHING to learn the truth... and look for opportunities to argue their point!" Herbert Spencer once said, "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is Contempt before investigation." KEEP IT UP SIR!!!

When all is said and done Greg you make trad archery much more interesting. Thanks for the experiments.

The reason that you do not see a change, is you are using Dacron strings. The higher you make the brace height the stronger the bow becomes. Except when you are using Dacron string. Which stretch due to the extra draw weight. Which cancels out the effect. Now if someone gave you an Acadian bow with modern string material you would be able to see the effect of brace height tuning.

@deathbare5306

5 жыл бұрын

TheNockingPoint Dacron stretches over two inches when pulled? I say that because most of Greg’s testing was over a two inch span, meaning the Dacron would have had stretch past it for what you are saying to be true. With that logic whenever you put a fastflight equivalent string on a bow you increase the draw weight regardless of brace height. It would be interesting to test.

@TheNockingPoint

5 жыл бұрын

@@deathbare5306, I was kind of joking when I made the above statement. ;-) However, there is some truth in the statement. The fast flight string will stretch less under full draw. That's one of the reasons why Fast flight performs better. The actual difference in the stretch at full draw is probably on the order of 1/4 inch on a #50 bow. This would make good fact or fiction archery 101 video. The limbs could be seen to be slightly further back on a fast flight string. Or we could just put a 50# weight on each of the strings and measure their length. then brace the bow with steel strings made to the ATA standard and measure the brace heights. BTW the string does not need to stretch 2 inches to make a 2-inch brace height change.

@TheNockingPoint

5 жыл бұрын

peteward.com/AMOStandards.pdf

@jharchery4117

Ай бұрын

That is a really stupid statement.

@TheNockingPoint

Ай бұрын

@@jharchery4117 As intended. It was meant to be troll bait. The Acadian bow ref was a poke at GA.

You are so Wright the bow is what they say. People just like to argue great job Greg.

A change in brace hieght will change the poundage, just by a very small amount. This happens because a shorter string makes the limbs flex a tiny bit more then a longer one, which by changing the brace hieght you are changing the length of the string, which will mean a slightly higher poundage at full draw. Try it with an electronic scale so you get a definite number instead of the older style one like was used in the video and you will see a difference, it will just be small.

The only time the draw weight changes is at the beginning of the draw on a bow pulling 40#at 28"at 71/2 "brace height it maybe 7lbs start out. Change the brace height to 8 1/2 and start pull weight might be 7.5 lbs.But overall poundage won't change Enjoyed this video

I'm not sure why,but whenever I see a rig like this being used to pull a bow, I cringe at how far it's being pulled. Yet I don't when an archer draws it.

String angle affects mechanical advantage. A higher brace height and shorter string gives better mechanical advantage, which offsets the increase in tension with the greater limb angle. If you imagine pulling a vertical lever with a rope, for every step backwards you take, the change in lever angle is initially small. The further back you go however, the greater the effect each step has on the change in lever angle, therefore more force needs to be applied to lift the rock, possibly one cause of stacking. This is an oversimplification of course, bow limbs are not straight rigid levers and have varying degrees of flexibility along their lengths, but the basic principle applies. Bow design aims to straighten out the mechanical advantage curve. A higher brace height and shorter draw length relative to limb length will also help to keep the draw within the central part of the curve, smoothing out the draw. A lower brace height will give a lower draw weight in the early part of the draw (imagine stringing a bow with a longer string than normal, just long enough that there is almost no tension in the limbs and string, pulling it back the first few inches will be very easy and the string will feel quite loose) . Further back in the draw however, brace height and string length will make less difference to draw weight as the initial mechanical advantage decreases.

We need people like you. Who test and tell the truth

Great test Greg. I've heard the same thing, glad you tested it and put it to rest. I agree with your comment on the brace height changing the cast which may give the impression the draw weight was changed. I notice a big difference in cast if I substantially change the brace height.

I think a lower brace height will allow an arrow go a little greater distance than a high brace height? I believe the longer the arrow rides the string is the reason? Have you tried this theory yet?

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

No, I have not. Mainly because most "Trad" Archers do not shoot long distance. Most shoot 30 yards and under. It would be an interesting test, I have to admit

@christian640

5 жыл бұрын

matt edwards, you're right, but the difference in distance is small. Difficult to measure. But logically: with a brace height of 7" and a draw length of 28", your effective draw length is 21". With a brace height of 9" at 28", your effective draw length is only 19". Your arrow acceleration way is 2" shorter at the higher brace heigth. Less acceleration = less speed = less flight distance.

@mattedwards4533

5 жыл бұрын

@@christian640 ,You described what I thought that is why I said, "a little distance". I use to make and shoot bows and noticed quite a few people, new to archery braced their bows quite high. Usually because of poor form causing the string hit their arm during the release of the string.

@adamzappia2213

5 жыл бұрын

Funnily I shot my recurve yesterday with a new and an old string. Exactly the same length but with the new string I got about 3/4 inch lower brace height (Dacron, so the old one had stretched already), it felt different and the arrows seemed to penetrate the target a little deeper. I assume that while this wasn’t properly tested, that the longer time on the string transferred a little more energy to the arrow, generating more speed. It’s the reason hunting bows generally have a bit shorter brace height.

@mattedwards4533

5 жыл бұрын

@@adamzappia2213 ,I can't say what caused the difference as there are to many variables that have to be factored in. What I can say with confidence is B-50 does stretch but after using it for a while it will settle in just fine. The older string was already set it appears? I shot with strings of B-50 for years and I was well pleased with it. I used it in regular long bows, self bows and recurves.

When the Brace height is higher the string is shorter. That means the limbs have to bend more at the same draw length so theoretically the poundage should be higher. However the differences are not that great and hardly measurable or not at all (as you have proven). But I'm still pretty sure that if you use a significantly longer string so that the limbs are hardly under tension the draw weight would change

Thanks I was interested in this

No, adjusting brace height will only change the amount of tension on the string, it cannot make the limbs stronger or weaker. However, it will change the power stroke which in turn will have some affect on arrow speed.

@ElizaberthUndEugen

5 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/fap1zrptXcTHmLA.html that one explaisn it well.

@GARBAGE3995

5 жыл бұрын

It will change the poundage because a shorter string flexes the limbs more then a longer one. It will just be a very small difference

@GARBAGE3995

5 жыл бұрын

A change to the brace hieght changes the length of the string which in turn will make the limbs flex slightly more or slight less. This will change the poundage, it's just a very small change

Hi, I do the same test with my recurve bow, is a W&W 25" riser with Uukha long limbs, brace height at 8" is 25.8 pounds at 8-7/8" is 27 pounds I used a 50 pound scale not 400 pounds scale.

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

Glad to see you doing your own testing. Your bow was designed to have different possible weights no? Did you take that into consideration? A one piece wood, fiberglass bow is not. As for my scale, it is certified for testing. It is made for testing, I trust that more than any one made for home use.

@noeramirez4975

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 Very well differentiated, I follow you, excellent techniques, excellent traditional archer. I will continue subscribed to your channel and watching your videos, I learn a lot, thanks.

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

@@noeramirez4975 What you need to understand about my test, is that I'm not concerned about absolutes, which many are. My only concern is will it affect my shooting. I look at everything like that. Now, with that in mind, I shoot for fun, most targets are under 30 yards. I can "getaway with", more, I have more "tolerance", than a pure target archery who has to hit a very small point all of the time. My shot groups at 20 yards is 6". With a shot group of that size, changing brace height, and any possible increase in poundage has zero affect on my groups. Now a person with a 3" group, it might. I never said it wouldn't. I have said in all my videos for me it does not. It always helps to know where a person is speaking from.

Hey Greg, another great video, I can't believe I almost 'mythed' it!!??

Very informative video, thank you!!! I would very much like to have a bow scale setup, like yours, it's really cool.

Thank you, I have always wondered if that made a difference. 🤔

Greg, it's hard to convince people when they know or think they know they are right. I had he same thing happen to me years ago on one of the trad. site. A few claimed brace height would change poundage. I asked how could it when the bow was set at a certain poundage at 28" no matter how high the BH your sill just pulling to 28", unless your draw length is longer or shorter. Sometimes when you dispel certain myths people will not except it and may get angry LOL. Thank you.

You need to spend a little more on the "Evil Laboratory" decor.

Lots of folks argue this point and maybe it is less noticeable on some bows due to materials shapes et cetera, but I have 2 bows that change in draw weight when the brace height is adjusted. One is maple & fiberglass, the other is bamboo & fiberglass. It is really not different than taking a bow and drawing different lengths. When you lengthen and shorten the string the limbs have to flex at different angles (we all learned this in geometry), just like they have to flex at different angles for different draw lengths. This is the same reason why bows stack as you pull back. This video should be redone with a more precise scale (digital readout), and use a range of 4 brace heights spaced an inch apart. The draw weight will change. It has to unless you own a freakish bow that pulls the same weight at 26" and 30". Think about it. Shortening the string is moving the limbs. If you measure from tip to tip as you shorten the string the tips will be closer. This is the same thing that happens when you draw the bow back. Additionally, this will also change the distance from tip to tip at a 28" draw. Changing the string length is obviously changing how the limbs flex which has to change draw weight unless your bow is magic and doesn't stack. I will say as I stated in the beginning all bows are not created equal, but I guarantee if you do this differently and with a wider selection of bows, you will see why people keep arguing about this. For example the fiberglass/ bamboo 54" longbow's DW is affected by BH to a greater degree than my 62" maple/fiberglass recurve. If your brace height is right in the sweet spot, and you don't move it around much, you're probably not going to see much difference.... especially on a dial-type scale. I had a guy tell me that "never in the history of archery" has brace height changed draw weight.... okeedokey. Explain to me why I get different measurements that directly correlate to BH (BHupDWupBHdownDWdown)? Someone in the comments below said "you can't make the limbs any stronger".... well not technically, but draw it to 32" inches instead of 28" and see what the draw weight is. I bet if you change your brace height 4 inches something different will happen too.

@rhoggman

3 жыл бұрын

In summary I think the video was well done, but the conclusion of "Fiction" is itself "Fiction". Most manufactures have a BH range. If you stay in that range or close to it with a well made bow you are not likely to see a noticeable change on a dial. To declare this as fiction is very presumptuous of you, especially with such a narrow test. I wholeheartedly challenge you to bust your own myth by using a broad selection of bows, wider brace height ranges (go out of manufacture spec by a couple inches in each direction), and a digital scale.

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

The. You did not grasp the just of it. That it does not change the draw weight when you stay within manufacturers recommendations. I have no bow that has a four in difference. The vast majority is no more than two inches max. All of mine are under that and within those restrictions, it does not change the draw weight. If it did, then the manufacturers would have to state that on the bow. In today’s sue happy world, some clown would sue them for false advertising. I stand by my conclusion.

@rhoggman

3 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 I linked above to your older video where you move the brace height half an inch, and the draw weight increases by a 1lbs. In that video you are probably at the top of the manufacture's recommendation for brace height. If you went up another inch or two the draw weight would likely increase quicker. This is the same stacking you will get by pulling back more than a 28" draw.... literally the same thing.

@rhoggman

3 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 kzread.info/dash/bejne/q6qe17yFj8nKp5M.html

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

@@rhoggman Sorry but you cannot have it both ways. In your first post you cite the scale as not being accurate enough. But now you trust it. I also said “might” be a pound of that and then after that I show the picture and write in big letters, no difference

Hoyt seem to disagree In the owners manual they say poundage depends in brace height and tiller bolt setting. Ive tried but the difference is so small its overshadowed by inaccuracies.

@TradArchery101

4 жыл бұрын

Different type of bow. No tiller bolts on a trad bow.

@nickbrown7667

4 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 my mistake sorry.

@nickbrown7667

4 жыл бұрын

It would of course make a big difference as the angle of the limbs would change with different tiller bolt settings. Sorry

@TradArchery101

4 жыл бұрын

Nick Brown No need to apologize. My fault for not making it clear enough. Have a great day

at best it might be changing arrow speed due to the length of time the string is in contact with the arrow.

enjoy your videos...thanks..

Only thing should change is the draw curve

@b12khx89

5 жыл бұрын

That's what is happening... Although the vage numbers on the scale don't show any real change in draw weight the performance of the bow changes with changes in braceheight

I find that if you lower your braise point to a certain point you feather will impact on the riser. If you raise it up a bit it will clear it. It also can make a huge difference if it's to low and you shoot three fingers under. It certainly changes your aim point because you are also changing the , ( elevation ? ) Trajectory of the arrow a bit.

@aurelienbourzat9204

5 жыл бұрын

If you change brace height, your nocking point will move so before tuning your nocking point, you have to find the sweet brace height for you

When they say that poundage at 28" then they surely assume you set the brace height that is nominal for that bow. Else they wouldn't need to specify it.

Your definitely right mate i cant see any logic in this argument either.

Sure it's fiction ... I did even explain it in my comment that I guess is responsible for this vid :-) I did not know that "cast" is the proper term for what I wanted to say ... Either way I learned something new, thanks for the vids. While you are at it, do you plan on testing fletching size vs "wrong" spine ? The one video where you experimented with different dynamic spine was excellent and I learned a lot there ... the only piece I am missing now is fletching size vs spine ...

Changes the pre load on the limbs.

It won’t work with a center shot or a very well matched arrow. But if the arrow is a little off it works. Changing the brace hight changes the offset angle. Thereby a higher brace height reduces the angle and lowering it increase the angle.

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

The bows were not cut to or past center and there was no change in poundage. 28" from the handle is still 28", regardless of brace height. Changing Brace Height will not change the poundage of your bow.

@IshanDeston

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 I think what people might be seeing is the fact that a change in brace height could potentially increase or decrease their personal draw length. While it doesn't really effect the draw of the bow, its quite possible that due to awkward positioning and potential longer or shorter draw it will feel as if it changed.

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

@@IshanDeston That could be, however the people I have spoken to were adamant in their belief that it changes Draw Weight. One of the people even went so far as to tell me they were a bowyer and a two time world champion!

@IshanDeston

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 I would have asked them to show some credentials with claims as bold as that, because i am quite in your camp about it making no sense on a physics or mathematics level. You have to do something to change the draw length to influence the draw weight, given that the draw length determines how much force can be applied to the bow without damaging the bow, its a fixed value. And even if you tilt or angle the bow ultimately you have a triangle with a fixed volume. If you shorten or lengthen a side, the other sides of the triangle will move to compensate. (probably not explaining this well)

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

@@IshanDeston No need to ask, I just replied, "I build Bows too", as the the champ, I take that with a grain of salt as they say. Anyone can have a event and call it a world championship. What gets me is that people listen to, believe and then repeat it, then it somehow becomes a "fact". I really think they are confusing things like cast and such with poundage.

Brace height work on stored energy

Excellent!

I had a mistake on buying arrow, I bought a stiffer arrow than required on my bow, It was supposed to be 1000 spine base on Easton but I have bought a 630 spine instead cause I made I mistake on looking on arrow chart I look into the arrow chart of gold tip and bought an arrow of easton (sorry I was a beginner) My question is since shooting those arrow with spine of 630 I actually shoot consistently always at the centre of the target, Do i have to change arrow cause it may not be my true shot and may affect my future progress?

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

I'm in the minority on this. I will shoot any arrow as long as it goes where I want. I'm not a target archer and with that, I don't stress over everything.

@luverneanimatics8769

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 Thanks a lot. It seems that I am having a hard time to group my new weaker arrow. I will go back to my old ones.

On a non center shoot traditional bow there is an off set angle that changes with brace hight that may make an arrow flight more or less left or right. I would like to know if arrow speed change since a low brace hight gets more time on the sting with the same draw length. Maybe that can be the next brace experiment?

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

I did that. What I found is that I had too much variation from shot to shot to have any difference show. Now, I did stay within the manufacturers settings, which was only an inch. If I went past that would there be a difference? Maybe.

@incorporeal3793

5 жыл бұрын

The way I see it is if you lower the brace height you lessen the tension on the string. Now when you draw back the first few inches will have very little weight on your fingers till it builds to full at your anchor, then when you release, the stored energy is transferred to the arrow the same way it was stored by your fingers, just in reverse. By the end of the stroke there will be very little energy being put back. So, although you may have increased the power stroke in length the amount of stored energy will pretty much be the same. If anything I think the arrow being on the string longer (certainly beyond the point at which it's no longer being propelled by it) would have an adverse affect by then becoming weight on the arrow before it breaks free of the string.

You need a scale appropriate to what you are measuring. That is a 550 lb scale if you had one the same size face but 100 lb max you would be able to see the half pound change in draw weight.

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

half a pound in draw weight? Oaky, that is a change, but not one that you would notice. I guess, I don't deal in absolutes, but rather what effects my shooting.

@davidr8309

3 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 the statement “brace height affects draw weight” is true. Whether or not it changes it enough to affect your shooting is subjective.

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

If that is so true, then why does a manufacturer list a single draw weight for their bows, yet have a 1.5 inch variance on brace height? According to what you said, it would be a different weight from the low to the high.

@davidr8309

3 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 The draw weight is listed by the manufacturer at (usually) a 28” draw at the recommended brace height. By your rational they should list the draw weight at different draw lengths. Brace height doesn’t change the draw weight much but it is a useful tool for fine tuning.

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidr8309 Not my rational, it is applying your assertion that it changes the draw weight, and if it did change it as much as you claim, then the manufacturers would list that for you. They do that on barebows. But not on wooden bows, that tells you something right there. I never said it is not a useful tool for tuning.

Now you need to test brace height contra,

maybe with those olympic style bows, where they can change the tiller symmetrically to adjust braceheight...?

@incorporeal3793

5 жыл бұрын

Turning the limb bolts on an Olympic style recurve will change the weight of the bow by roughly 3-4lbs, but that's due to you changing the pocket angle. I'm not sure you would use the limb bolts to adjust brace height I believe they're for fine tuning poundage and tiller, you would just twist or untwist the string to adjust brace height as with any other bow.

@GARBAGE3995

5 жыл бұрын

@@incorporeal3793 tiller adjustment is a percentage of the poundage, not 3-4 pounds

Now if you shoot a 45lb bow at 28” and you draw 29” to 30” does that increase the the poundage the further you pull back. I’m still new to traditional archery and was just wondering.

@b12khx89

5 жыл бұрын

Short answer... Yes The same goes for under drawing below 28"... The bow weight will be less... You can probably get a 2lb/10% difference per inch as a rough guide but the exact amount will need to be measured with a scale

@adamzappia2213

5 жыл бұрын

Yep, what Biz Khan said, and also riser length effects the poundage. From memory a shorter riser with the same limbs increases draw weight, effectively for the same reason as increasing draw length. To get the same draw length when using a shorter riser you put a deeper bend in the limbs. Also note that limbs are rated at their draw weight at a specific draw length, usually 28”.

@b12khx89

5 жыл бұрын

@@adamzappia2213 that's true... Usually recurve bow limbs are used and rated with a 25" riser but they often also label the limb poundage with the 23" riser, almost always 2# heavier.... The less common 27" I would assume would effectively reduce the poundage 2#

Have you ever thought or have shot a trad bow with a release aid? I know this is taboo in the trad world but I recently started, yesterday, shooting my recurve with a thumb release aid(the one's used on compound bows) to aliviate finger pain and it absolutely worked. I found it much easier to figure out than traditional thumb shooting. It has a lot of advantages, at least in my case, but I noticed the arrows were hitting far to the right, penetration increased dramatically and arrow flight is almost impossible to judge as the arrows show no visible "paradox" or spin. I haven't chrono or paper tuned as I just started but it would be a cool and new subject to make a vid on.

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

I have no problem with people using a release. I do many things that are "Unconventional", in fact it is the variety of styles that I enjoy the most.

So just string my bow and we’re good to go?

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

Very open ended question. Yes and no. Too many variables to count.

The only way to accomplish what they are speaking of is to shorten the limbs. If you moved string in 1 inch on each end then you'd accomplish what they are talking about...

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

Not sure what you are saying, but shortening the string by 2", does that not bring in each limb by 1"?

@thatoldguyplayingcsgo9255

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 Re read it.. the statement is shortening the "Limbs" Take it down 1 inch per end would them shorten the strings length and the bows draw weight..

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

Okay, but in this test and the test i ran before and afterwards I could not get any change in draw weight and that was shortening the string by two inches.

@thatoldguyplayingcsgo9255

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 hence shorting the BOW not just the string... Of course once you shorten the Bow you will need to shorten the string. You can not gain poundage just by making the string shorter, you have to shorten the Bow string noch points..

In another video on brace height and arrow speed you changed a BH from 8 to 8.5 and noted the draw weight increased by about 1lbs. That was only 1/2". I guess there is no point in doing another video because you already busted your own myth.

@TradArchery101

3 жыл бұрын

And what video would that be?

@rhoggman

3 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 kzread.info/dash/bejne/q6qe17yFj8nKp5M.html

Gregory, unfortunately, as in all sports, there are some "Mister I know everything", with which it is difficult to discuss. Even having them watch your "Archery Myth Buster" videos can not convince them otherwise. It is sad but it's like that. Personally, I do my best to ignore them, but politely.

Does brace height affect the speed of an arrow?

@TradArchery101

5 жыл бұрын

Tested that. I stayed within manufacturer's specs and found no appreciable increase in arrow speed. In fact, I found more variance in speed due to variations in my shot cycle. Now, If you went beyond the manufacturers spec's, would you see a difference? Don't know.

@donazzopardi2721

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 you're awesome

@christian640

5 жыл бұрын

@@TradArchery101 Hi, a german guy tested this with accurate equipment. kzread.info/dash/bejne/pZ98xKOBma-oqso.html Result: brace height 21,0 cm (8,25") arrow speed: 169 ft/sec brace height 23,2 cm (9,13") arrow speed 166 ft/sec.

Hey Greg, I think your conclusion here is wrong. This issue is more complicated. I made a response video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/g4V9zrqrnpe1lpM.html& Edit: since I'm calling you Greg, feel free to call me Daniel.

1st.