*Slight amendment to Number 4* I may have overstated the similarities between Drúedain and Hobbits. Tolkien makes it very clear that they're not the same. However, the Drúedain do seem very similar (at least superficially) to how Harfoots are apparently being portrayed in this show, and so I think I'd prefer it if they dropped the Harfoot pretence entirely, and just called these new characters Drughu or Woses. However it would be incorrect to say that Tolkien stated in his writings that Drúedain are proto-hobbits. They're not. They're their own thing.

@Trencher1375

2 жыл бұрын

"I was completely wrong but please take into consideration that I am really superficial."

@altal2993

2 жыл бұрын

I know.... 1 of a lot of things you have wrong here my friend

@seanhartel5362

2 жыл бұрын

@@altal2993 Al Tal, that was an amazing amount of evidence you provided. My mind is blown.

@altal2993

2 жыл бұрын

@@seanhartel5362 please see my other comment... now that is amazing:)

@johnbigboote8900

2 жыл бұрын

@@altal2993 I did read your other comment. It was sane, and reasonable and comprised many good points. However it didn't contain anything to make me believe that you are a vastly more knowledgeable Tolkien scholar than our host, nor a more deeply profound thinker on the subject of fantasy literature adaptations, at least not to the point that you can summarily dismiss the bulk of what he says in this video. I would very much appreciate a longer comment where you discuss each point specifically.

When Bezos said he is a massive fan of Tolkien, I doubt he meant anything but his admiration for Smaug the Dragon.

@kents.2866

2 жыл бұрын

Or maybe he has a shrine to Melkor and Sauron. Lol

@gandalftehdank6052

2 жыл бұрын

@@kents.2866 Not unlikely.

@jeehoichan8043

2 жыл бұрын

I mean he is so bald that he might as well be the egg of a dragon

@claudiahernadez6445

2 жыл бұрын

No, i think he said "he's a super fan of Tokens", not Tokien.

@republikadugave420

2 жыл бұрын

I mean he kinda is smaug...money horder

My biggest fear is that the show exists because of greed, Tolkein is opposed to greed because of how it corrupts.

@virnan

2 жыл бұрын

"Everything you you touch will turn to gold, but it will have no domination over you"- Galadriel to Gimli when giving FOUR golden strands of hair.

@bluebird3281

2 жыл бұрын

It is absolutely about greed so it will be absolutely corrupt.

@hakusuna

2 жыл бұрын

Completely agree!

@highmolecularweightRDX

2 жыл бұрын

Look at what Disney has done to the old fairy tales, Amazon is doing the same thing to LotR; destroy what came before in order to make the ashes theirs. Furry artists have more respect for the original message of a work than whatever half-baked idea the likes of Amazon or Disney thrown in.

@nolimitsamputee5219

2 жыл бұрын

Of course it is.

Wasn't a fan but watching this makes me appreciate what Jackson did. Although he wasn't 100% accurate to the books at least we felt Middle Earth at its core.

@mguard9428

2 жыл бұрын

He even talked about how he didn't like everything they did for the movies, but they did it because it was not their place to change Tolkiens story

@oliveremmettknox7776

2 жыл бұрын

Blame Warner Bros rushing Peter Jackson to film The Hobbit as a triology.

@reidmason2551

2 жыл бұрын

100% accuracy to the books was never an option from a practical perspective. Changes were going to be necessary just as a consequence of going from one medium to another. Some cutting and reshaping was going to happen no matter what. But there is a huge difference between making changes for the sake of a smoother translation from page to film and whatever SJW nonsense Amazon is up to.

@oliveremmettknox7776

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree, hobbitassasiin1. The LOTR films paid more homage to Tolkein's LOTR books than The Hobbit films did to The Hobbit book.

@Andalaeknir86

2 жыл бұрын

Books and film's are tricky. I believe peter Jackson did amazing work to wjat works better on film than let's say a book but it was a love letter to Tolkien's work and amazing stories abd have inspired you nger generations to his books

Looks like the worst-case scenario Dave-a-rino. I’m not going to go into all the ways this series has mortified me so far, because it would take all day, but there is one horror buried in this steaming pile of a show that really rules them all. A recurring theme really: So, Galadriel is leading her troops through the icy northern wastes. They’ve been traveling together for years. A fellowship, if you will. But now they are at the end of their endurance. One of them drops, incapable of continuing. Galadriel’s response: “Leave him. Keep moving.” OK, well that’s a radical new take on Galadriel-as-sociopath. Imagine if Tolkien had written Aragorn like that: Boromir: “Aragorn, the halflings will never make it over Caradhras!” Aragorn: “Fine. Toss ‘em over the edge.” Next thing I know, a hobfoot or harling or whatever breaks his ankle. The response of the other halfbits? “Well, we could just put you in one of our carts, but that would be a lot of work, so we’re just going to leave you for the wolves to eat. Bye!” Then a little later, we find out that that’s their standard response if you break the rules too. So basically, they grow up and spend their whole lives together like a big happy family, but the instant one of them becomes a bit of an inconvenience….wolf food. So honestly, I’m seriously wondering if the writers are sociopaths. Can they not SEE this is wrong? They honestly think this is OK, even for mildly nice characters, much less paragons like Galadriel? Can they even TELL good from evil? Honestly, NO ONE who could write those scenes for Galadriel or the hoblings should EVER have been allowed within a hundred miles of Tolkien. It just sickens me.

@tolkienuntangled

Жыл бұрын

A very good point. And pretty indefensible in my mind.

I want longhaired elves! It makes them look ancient timeless and elegant. I am not sure if the elves depicted in the trailer looks any different than regular humans.

@facepwnagewtf

2 жыл бұрын

Never thought about it till you brought this up, but yes the only elf who actually looks like an elf in the trailer is who I assume to be Celebrimbor.

@LoneSilverW0lf

Жыл бұрын

That was the first thing that worried me back when we first got the pictures. Until it was explicitly stated these characters were supposedly elves, I thought they’re just humans. Tolkien designed the races to be distinguished from a distance, not this garbage. The fact there’s a beardless Dwarf lady didn’t help either. If they can’t be bothered to remember even these basic details, what other very important details did they ‘overlook’ in the process? Like the whole characterization of Galadriel and Elrond for example? And their subsequent passive aggressive attacking of the fans who point it out never helps anyone either. My expectations are abysmal for this in the first place, and not getting better. If they simply called this anything other than a LotR series then I would give it a shot.

@d.m.collins1501

Жыл бұрын

Only a few elves in Tolkien actually have long hair--the tradition of them ALL having long hair is basically a post-hippie phenomenon.

@svanemy

Жыл бұрын

@@d.m.collins1501 “He wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold.” Fingon, High King of the Noldor “The hair of Olwë was long and white, and his eyes were blue.” Olwë, king of the Teleri “His golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed.” Glorfindel of Rivendell “But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill.” This statement regarding Elvish long hair is made in Quenta Silmarillion phase 1 texts, given in History of Middle-earth 10, regarding the Teleri elves. “Elwë himself had long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this [hair color] does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwë. - J.R.R. Tolkien, The War of the Jewels, “Quendi and Eldar” “Then Celegorm arose amid the throng” (p. 169). In Quenta Silmarillion this is followed by ‘golden was his long hair‘. - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lost Road and Other Writings: the Commentary to “On Beren and Tinúviel” Fingon wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Peoples of the Middle-earth: “The Shibboleth of Fëanor”. Fingon was a High King of the Noldor. Each time Tolkien described the hair length of an elf, it was long, so it is not that far out to asume that elves had long hair. And it does make them stand out, as something else than the humans, so it is visually effective. If Tolkien never contradicted this image of them in his writings, and it is so loved by artists and fans, I think Amazon should provide a really good reason for why they went with the modern, american hair styles, instead of the more timeless, ancient looking ones. They could have made them look different from the PJ movies, whitout giving them buzz cuts and blowdried hairstyles. But it is what it is. Personally I have transfered my anticipations to The war of the Rohirrim animation.

@creatrixZBD

Жыл бұрын

From the trailer, pretty much everyone looks like normal rl people who accidentally ended up at a fantasy LARP, and had to borrow gear.

I’m normally on the fence with these sort of things but in this case I’m not even gonna bother with this one. Knowing amazons treatment with the Wheels of Time and the showrunners credentials (or lack thereof) this series makes it perfectly clear that they don’t intend to be true to what Tolkien set out to do. I appreciate how dignified and mature you handled this dodgey topic Dave! We should always be free to express our opinions without being scorned or ostracized.

@christiancividino455

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. However how those opinions are formed and expressed can illicit scorn or ridicule. Let’s not assume that the freedom to express works only one way and the opinion is free from criticism.

@boxxidraws7690

2 жыл бұрын

@@christiancividino455 My intentions were not to illicit anything. Of course opinions should be criticized, and freedom of expression can work in many ways. I admit that my comment probably came out wrong... The point I want to make was that Amazon is only going to focus on surface level action crap and intersectional politics , rather than the themes that Tolkien set out to tell. And it’s not fair for fans to be labeled as things they are not for defending his legacy imo. I’m simply commending Dave for point out the good and the bad that could come out of this. But for me I simply won’t be interested. It’d save me from disappointment. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

@larrygotter5609

2 жыл бұрын

Wheel of time is fine.

@bentramer6835

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I'm going to pass on this adaptation as well.

@facelessandnameless

2 жыл бұрын

Same here. I won’t watch a second of it.

For me, the biggest problem with the time compression is that the very reason they chose (mortal characters will die off) is exactly the issue at the center of the the story of the Second Age. All the Rings were forged to hold off the changes that time brings - those changes (including the deaths of mortals who might be dear to the Elves, such as Elros) are less of a problem if the time span is drastically reduced. If Isildur has a life-span that covers most of the [reduced] Second Age, there is little in the Nine Rings to tempt their recipients; and Ar-Pharazon's desire for the long life of the Elves is harder to motivate. The disquieting aspect of this is the implied de-emphasis of Tolkien's larger themes of mortality (as the Gift of the One that must be taken on faith), and other themes that take a while to play out, such as the deforestation (in Minhiriath) wrought by the Númenorean conquests in Middle-earth.

@MrChickennugget360

2 жыл бұрын

Yup. 100% agreed. When i heard of Amazon saying that they were going to compress the time line so that the human characters won't die off- i was like "thats the whole point!" Plus a full season is plenty of time to introduce and kill of mortal characters and if Game of Thrones has taught us anything its that you can kill of a beloved character and have them replaced by new memorable ones a season later. The driving theme of the Numenor them fearing their mortality. Amazon missing this point makes me think they don't care about the story.

@danbee3288

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on. I personally would have had three clear timelines. 1. Elros founds Numenor. Elrond joins Gil-galad. Galadriel or Celebrimbor found Eregion 2. Aldarion returns/Annatar, Glorfindel and Blue Wizards arrive to fight the new dark Lord. All claim to be sent from the West to fight against dark Lord. Forging and betrayal of Annnatar. 3. Rise of Ar-pharazon to the fall of Numenor. A chance to see the decline of Numenor.

@doomsdaybooty1072

Жыл бұрын

This is so well said. Nailed it. The compressing of the timeline is taking waaayyy too much liberty with the source material and bastardizing it beyond repair

@haileeraestout5567

Жыл бұрын

This Show Will Get BANNED From KZread If There's ANY Inappropriate Stuff

The hair is not a “Minor” thing. One of the reasons Tolkien wrote his works was to rescue the “degradation and miniaturization” of fairy. He rescued the image of elves to make them beautiful, powerful, ethereal. By presenting short haired elves, they are doing the exact thing Tolkien tried to so hard to work against. These characters don’t look like the image of elves Tolkien created, these look like modern soyboys.

@Daviesng007

2 жыл бұрын

I am WAY more concerned that Elrond appears to be blonde(ish).

@MrChickennugget360

2 жыл бұрын

@@Daviesng007 right. If there is one thing that Elrond is NOT its blond. He is clearly stated as having very dark Hair. He is the Great Grandson of Lúthien after all

@christiancividino455

2 жыл бұрын

That’s a strange interpretation when Tolkien was referring to height and presence. No where did he state that fairies had short hair and thus elves were degraded. Also faeries can be and often were beautiful. Also not all faeries were small but Tolkien was talking more about popular representation at the time for fey beings and elves. Remember he also initially called the Noldor Gnomes. So yes he was trying to rescue the notion of fey that is correct. And why why do you have to use buzzwords like soy boy it demeans the fandom and has no place in Tolkien discussions. It’s also demeaning to the actors.

@JainaSoloB312

2 жыл бұрын

Short hair = soyboys?? What?🤣🤣🤣 I don't fully know what you mean by "soyboy", and I can almost guarantee you don't know what it means either, but long hair is typically seen as being more feminine than short hair.

@MrChickennugget360

2 жыл бұрын

@@JainaSoloB312 that depends on the culture. Long Hair is used in Lord of the Rings because most northern Europeans in the distant past grew their hair long.

Rainbow Dave, I have to say once again that you did a great job showing a balanced perspective here. Even if you admit to being a fence sitter, it was a refreshing take on something that has become so hyper polarized in today’s day and age. And you provided us with something that is surely lacking; and that is nuance. All while providing a backdrop of the Professors world and his inspiration for all these lovely languages, characters, and sceneries. Well done good sir.

The fact that they don't even have the rights to the Silmarillion causes worry.

@thedreadedkraken3944

2 жыл бұрын

You should be thanking god.

@gonzaloarvietti4920

Жыл бұрын

So..then, how the f*ck bezzos started this tv show ?

The armor looks silly. A Hauberk w/ Gambeson would look fine on Men and Dwarves. A Leather Jerkin with Metal Embellishments or Brigandine with Leather would look wonderful on elves. I think I spent way, way 2 much time in the Armory and Armor books section at the Library. 🤐

@MrChickennugget360

2 жыл бұрын

Almost everyone described in Middle Earth wear Mail. Only time i can think of someone not wearing mail armor is Mery being given a leather Jerkin since they did not have time to make a coat of rings for someone so small. Elves are always described as wearing Mail Armor.

@frederickrenaud5698

2 жыл бұрын

Based on the image of Felagund we got in the trailer, the Noldors are wearing corinthien helmets...I mean come on guys, you could at least try to make the costume a little more that glorified costplay.

@MrChickennugget360

2 жыл бұрын

@@frederickrenaud5698 shit most cosplay are better than that.

@christiancividino455

2 жыл бұрын

@@frederickrenaud5698 it looks based off of Alan Lee artwork of The Battle of Unnumbered Tears but a bit plainer

@frederickrenaud5698

2 жыл бұрын

@@christiancividino455 Oh wow thanks for pointing that out! I've never seen this picture and it looks amazing! True, there are connections to be made but Lee's one looks really good and I don't get this ''ancient greek'' feeling.

I'm really happy that the great mythology of my country, the Persian (Iranian) myth and our great epic the Book of Kings (Shahnameh) has remained hidden to these movie studios and streaming companies especially at this day and age. Otherwise the would have turned them into trash as well.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately you're almost certainly right.

@Ali-bu6lo

2 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled And also, I suggest to read the aforementioned book. In my opinion it's the most interesting work of mythology that would be interesting to fans of modern fantasy and Tolkien. Since it's both long and full of many stories and composed by one person. There are English translations of it, though the original book is poetic and these translations are not, it's still worth reading.

@csehszlovakze

2 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled amazon basically butchered the last 3 seasons of The Expanse, and that had the authors involved. keep that in mind for this series.

@oliveremmettknox7776

2 жыл бұрын

Grow up, Ali Kian. Almost every book is going to adapted into a TV series and movie. Stop demonizing Hollywood and blinding assumping that all movies and TV show adaptations ruin the books that they are based on. That's not true!

@Ali-bu6lo

2 жыл бұрын

@@oliveremmettknox7776 "Blindly" is such a funny word here when we can see how much social justice crap has been injected into movies and adaptations.

There's a very pragmatic reason as to why we don't see a lot of mail in TV and film productions; A: mail is relatively expensive, especially riveted so it doesn't look cheap. B: mail is comparatively heavy - given the amount of waiting around in costume, it can be unduly tiring for the actors. There are other reasons we tend to see more plate style armour in such productions. 1) it can be made from plastic or resin, therefore cheaper and lighter 2) it can be made distinctive, so as to differentiate between characters or factions. Mail hauberks tend to appear alike no matter what the person wearing them looks like. So that's why we only tend to see mail on sleeves with something else over the top. As for brigandine and gambeson, they too would be 'anachronistic' in the sense this video puts it. Gambeson is post-Hastings, and brigandine contemporary to plate armour. I think such notions can be over-emphasised with Tolkien's work. He himself wasn't much bothered about including potatoes and tomatoes, which would have been non-existent in Anglo-Saxon England.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

That's a good point

@johnbigboote8900

2 жыл бұрын

The Peter Jackson movies solved at least the weight problem by making the mail out of thin slices of plastic tubing, then gluing the ends together with cyano-acrylate. Very labour intensive, but it looked fairly good on camera and wasn't too difficult to wear. I have to concede your other points, especially given today's 3D printing and other CNC technology.

@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115

2 жыл бұрын

But of course Mr Tolkien included tomatoes and potatoes since he was a giant Hobbit himself

@Ragdefender

2 жыл бұрын

On the topic of potatoes, I believe the "no prize" explanation was that it existed in middle earth a long time ago and then disappeared, and rediscovered in the new world. I wish I can remember where I read this.

@morphistoslair7265

2 жыл бұрын

But many are already made when they did the other movies. could be cheaper. But then cant spend the Billion dollar budget

Please for the love of everything Tolkien why didn't they hire someone like you for this very likely bastardization to advise. Your passion is so strong it rejuvenates everything I love about Lord of the Rings.

This video is so well said and intelligent. What a refreshing feeling it is to not have someone who is either extreme yes or no.

The more I watch your videos the more I like what your doing. Not just your LOTR breakdowns but your views on touchy political topics are spot on. I feel like you are a genuine and nice person. So it's a pleasure to be part of your community 👍

I really appreciate your approach to this topic. You kept the political element to a minimum and avoided the buzzwords that obfuscate the literary and artistic considerations that, in the end, will make or break the show.

All the criticism of the production I've seen is measured, informed, and well-reasoned... this video being a high point. By contrast, figures involved in the production seem to be offering uniformly angry, defensive responses which pay little mind to the critical points being made. And thus they reveal their weakness. Judging by other recent adaptations which have been similarly influenced by modern social goals, the changes we've seen so far in TRoP are an ill portent. I don't see that the true fans of Tolkien's works ranked above third on this production's priority list of their target audience, behind themselves and the general public who won't realize how often and how far it has deviated from the source material. The phrase that now springs to my mind is Ship of Theseus.

If you want a swordmaiden, that's Eowyn. That could also be a new character. For Galadriel, it ruins the fact that she didn't need a sword. And the "piss and vinegar" description of her, or the idea that she was brash and hotheaded in the second age, really undermines her character. And yes, the long hair matters. I see these haircuts and very clearly see that they used a buzzer. No doubt they will have Durin's folk smith a buzzer to explain it.

@ivangeorgiev42

Жыл бұрын

Im sure a "young" Galadriel didnt need a sword just as much an old Gandalf (a wizard, a mayar and in white form) didnt need a sword AND staff to beat orcs up. Oh wait, he did...

@jesseparrish1993

Жыл бұрын

​@@ivangeorgiev42 Because in the books, Gandalf used a sword and staff to beat up orcs, whereas Galadriel did not. Tolkein tells us that Olorin - his maiar name - was weakened from his full power to be sent as Mithrandir/Gandalf to aid in the struggle against Sauron. With his full power intact, he probably would not have needed a sword either. Galadriel's power was in her wisdom, influence, and magic. In my opinion, good writing would bring that power to the screen. Nobody watched LOTR and came away feeling that Galadriel was weak. By turning Galadriel into a sword-dancer, the writers (a) departed from the lore, (b) undermined a potentially very interesting story consistent with the lore, and (c) played into the longstanding trope of making female characters "strong" by giving them male attributes and roles.

@shawnbenson7696

Жыл бұрын

Luthien is the warrior elvin princess.

Recommendation: Do a “character rehab” series next for characters who were poorly/in accurately in the films or perhaps do some top 10’s for power rankings or something? Anything you’d do though would be great. Love the videos, Dave!

@girliealmighty

2 жыл бұрын

All great ideas! Just FYI Girl Next Gondor here on KZread has a great character rehab series. Thanks for the videos Dave

Great points, but they are not allowed to use any characters or events in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales that is not mentioned in the Trilogy, The Hobbit and the appendices. They are making a Frankenstein monster, putting bits and pieces from the stuff they have rights to and their own stuff and purposely avoiding the stuff they don't have the rights to.

@christiancividino455

2 жыл бұрын

Not exactly, they are allowed with exception to request approval from the Tolkien estate. We just don’t know everything that was requested and approved as exceptions. We do know on the map they used has Numenor with image found in UT.

@V1489Cygni

2 жыл бұрын

And after the dumpster caught fire they tried to use that as an excuse, thing is, all they've done so far is prove the Estate's point that they don't deserve those rights to begin with. No one is mad at them for not featuring Celebrian or whomever. They'd have done altge same things if they had more material to work with, because that's the iindustry's (and it's activists) m.o. Look at their superfan debacle. Instead of shows of good faith, of trying to convince people that they're not out to change things after the trailer was poorly recieved, they double down on diversity talking points in a clearly rehearsed propaganda piece. THAT is stronger evidence than the trailer or even the actual quotes from the staff about "what felt natural to them when writing the show": they meticulously planned to manipulate people while doubling down on what people criticized. There's no room for interpretation there, no need to "wait and see what they meant when they published those videos"

My biggest fear is characters whose persona are portrayed differently from the lore. A wimpy, or otherwise emotionally unstable Finrod would make me lose it - he was such a badass character. Warrior Galadriel? I'm super skeptical.

Dave, I have been watching all the videos made on the trailer by my favourite Tolkien channels, expecting to really hear their thoughts and a bit disappointed that they all seem fine with it (at least on camera). You are the first one to actually express fears and concerns about what we saw and what it meant for the show so thank you very much for your honesty! I am sharing those exact same fears and you have perfectly articulated all of them. Next time, someone says something to me I will tell them to watch your video. When I saw this trailer, it did not feel like I was back in Middle Earth, as you said it is quite generic. It feels like they have created a fantasy world and, as after thought, decided to add characters from the Lord of the Rings to gain support from the fans. I will try to do as you said, stay as open minded as I can but I am no longer excited nor looking forward to watching the show. Wait and see I suppose.

My greatest fear actually stems from the multiple seemingly small details that they show has already gotten wrong (Dwarf women not having beards, Durin the 4th etc) and are publicly showing off via the teaser trailer or teaser photos and that is if they have already gotten these known parts of tolkiens world that as I have said are minor as most don't necessarily play into the plot, some are somewhat major (eg. Durin the 4th) and this could be indicative of other details that they think are minor although after omission could severely damage the characters that are established in the books to be a certain way, whether this is the omission of later faithful numenoreans or if invented characters detract from the achievements of established characters. In fact this especially is a great hazard of inventing characters as giving these achievements not only falsifies these new characters it could harshly detract a seemingly minor piece of established character growth that has a butterfly effect that then also isn't explored. That being said I'm still holding out hope that it is an enjoyable show and am nonetheless looking forward to more Middle Earth content. (Although if I'm totally honest I have more hope for The War of the Rohirrim).

@d.m.collins1501

Жыл бұрын

You must also have been "worried" about the first Peter Jackson films with equal enthusiasm, if you think beards are so important. He said very specifically in a letter that “Men normally had them [beards] when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Numenorean chieftans.” And yet even Aragorn--who is descended from ELVES--has a beard! If I go to your old LiveJournal accounts will I see you saying, "my greatest fear about this upcoming Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings is that he casted Aragorn with a BEARD! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!" or is it only a distaste you developed when they casted black ladies?

@Makkaru112

Жыл бұрын

You'll love War Of The Rohirim even more if you watch George The Giant Slayer video about it. I hope you'll be amazed by his sharing Brian Cox Reading Tolkien's Sigurd and Gudrun. ;)

All I want from shows is a lack of modern politics. The most irritating thing to me is what they have done to Galadriel. Galadriel is probably my favorite character of all. She was strong and wise and in my view a strong female character. They made her a generic male character they will call a "Strong woman" she was already awesome. I really do fear she will be like Daenerys Targaryen from season 8 of Game of Thrones. I was also hoping to see diversity in the form of people from the far east and south. I like Baranor from Shadow of War. I thought his back story and DLC was cool would have liked to see more of places like Harad.

@Patrick-qed

2 жыл бұрын

The name that Galadriel's mother gave to her means "man-maiden."

I have recently had my expectations lowered to almost zero. Amazon doesn't actually have the rights to any Tolkien material other than LotR and The Hobbit. They are legally only allowed to use the lore from those books. Like, they will literally get sued if they are accurate to the lore beyond what can be found in the LotR appendices. So, all of these fears you expressed about them ignoring the lore... yeah... a lot of it they legally have to avoid. I also really feel like it's a sign the Tolkien estate didn't trust them. It says a lot to me about their intentions that they'd be willing to weasel around not having the rights to the legendarium by just extrapolating the appendices. *Source:* Vanity Fair article named "10 Burning Questions About Amazon’s The Rings of Power" under the question "What, Exactly, Is the Source Material Here?"

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah this is a major blow to so many of the theories that fans have been speculating on. Definitely no Blue Wizards.

Part of the problem is there is no tale, there is just the appendex and any mentions of the second age in the LOTR. Because the only rights they have is LOTR and the Hobbit

I did the photoshop edit featured at 6:33 and now I feel famous lol

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

That's so awesome! If you have an art page (or something), I'll get you credited in the description.

Durin is like "The Avatar" of the first Durin, kind of... Can't be having back to back Durins...

A billion dollars and Amazon didn’t waste a cent to hire you and a few other KZreadrs who live eat and breath this lore. Such a shame because every point in this video is spot on and could have been avoided had they consulted fans like you. To be honest it feels like Amazon wants to have their own game of thrones without putting the effort in to actually write one.

I actually really appreciate your mentioning the controversial subject of race in the series, especially because what you are saying is so reasonable. It is another concern of mine because, as you say, I want consistency. I want the world to be believable. I want to be immersed in the story. The big concern is that two black actors we have seen thus far are there as a lazy attempt at tokenization and pandering. Instead of actually building upon the world Tolkien created. Disa could be from one of the lesser-known dwarven clans from the south of middle earth which would explain her darker skin and maybe even her beardlessness. Maybe the Ironfists? They could have different customs than the long beards? Arondir could be a half-elf. Half silvan elf and half Rhûnic maybe? I know they are extremely rare in books, but it does make for a relatively simple explanation for his complexion as compared with other elves. His relationship with the human woman would also somewhat parallel other half-elves we know about. My worry is that I have put more thought into this than the writers have, but I guess we won't know until the show is released.

@ManiacMayhem7256

2 жыл бұрын

Shadow of War fixed the black person thing by having the character be a person from far-Harad who was adopted by Gondorian nobility.

@Sam_Kings

2 жыл бұрын

@@ManiacMayhem7256 right, its not exactly difficult

@andycamp4890

2 жыл бұрын

There is only one half-elf on Middle Earth - Elrond. The other one went to Numinor and died millenia ago. Dwarves live underground so they would be pail.

Dear Tolkien Untangled, do you have any hope in this series? In my case I lost it all when I saw the trailer

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

I go back and forth. I really want to be positive and optimistic, and there are some things I've heard that make me cautiously hopeful, but then there are so many other things that just make me think the creators aren't really making a Tolkien adaptation. They're just cashing in on the fantasy genre, and using the most iconic names that money can buy without respecting the source material. The trailer was very disappointing for me. I'm waiting for that shot, or line, or piece of information that says 'yes we at Amazon understand the concerns of the fans and rest assured we're taking Tolkien's writings seriously.' But I've yet to see anything even vaguely close to that. There's a difference between deviating from the source material and disrespecting it, but I guess only time will tell what route they've gone down. I hope I'm wrong.

@sk8shred

2 жыл бұрын

You're not the only one man. Me too. :(

Yes, 🌈 Dave!! I feel the same about the short-haired elves!!! Way too Vulcany…. 🖖🏻 The long, often intricate hair really adds to the ethereal, elegant, ancient aesthetic Tolkien elves should have. PJ’s movies embrace the high, epic and majestic fantasy. I don’t want this to be like or look like all the other fantasies that streaming networks have been rushing to produce and cash in on. This has to be transcendent! Like you said, I’m on the fence… but I really really want this to be amazing! Thanks for two wonderful videos this week!

@seanhartel5362

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on. Don’t do my boy Finrod dirty by giving him short hair. The house of Finwe with their Quenyan names: Curufinwe, Nolofinwe, Arafinwe, literally mean HAIR. Crafty hair, noble hair, wise hair. And I totally agree that having them look almost angelic creates that timeless otherworldly feel. Especially the Noldor.

@di3486

2 жыл бұрын

EXACTLY. The long hair really sets them apart. Make them so ethereally beautiful.

@SquirrelASMR

2 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't mind a few female elves with short hair, but men just doesn't seem elfy with short hair.

@SquirrelASMR

2 жыл бұрын

@@seanhartel5362 omg hahaha for real? That's awesome! Amazon make me cry :(

@SirielleArt

2 жыл бұрын

@@SquirrelASMR Actually these are Crafty Finwë (Curufin), Wise Finwë (Fingolfin) and so on - names given after Finwë the first king of the Noldor, but the name Finwë itself has got roots in word 'hair', though the meaning is unclear. From "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", HoME 12: "Eldarin PHIN 'hair', as in Quenya finë 'a hair', findë 'hair, especially of the head', finda 'having hair, -haired'; (...) All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwë as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." So his name referred to hair, but for unknown reasons. Still this quote backs up the popular image of most of the Elves having long hair. Those with short her would be exceptions, not norm.

Dear Amazon: please, PLEASE!, watch this video. It'll teach you one or two things about Tolkien and his marvelous work...

First: this is the best video/reaction to the upcoming Amazon series I've seen (or read) so far in English or Spanish (my native language), very well thought out, argued, and nuanced even when you've touched on politically thorny issues. Second: your knowledge not only of Tolkien's work but of the man himself is impressive, through your channel and others (such as Deep Geek) I have learned many, for me, new Middle Earth stories or interpretations of those I already knew, having only read the published novels by Tolkien in Life and The Silmarillion. Bravo, gracias y saludos desde México.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy the video.

@stevenfletcher3411

Жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled I just wanted to second Keshos comment. I have concerns and also hopes for the series there's bits that excite me and bits that worry me its great to see so many of these articulated so well.

So you realize they’ve quadrupled down on first age characters. The hair situation and battle Galadriel are heresy. All we’re seeing is the prologue, which will last several episodes. Potentially a good hunk of the first season, I assume. All smoke, mirrors, and modern narratives. Which goes to show, they do not have a concise story that can stand on its own (not that Tolkien didn’t, the writers are off in the weeds). All of it. I will not be watching but will be paying attention. Had to edit this comment. I was in the steam room at the gym at 5:30 AM and I think I was overwhelmed with heat. My grammar and points were terrible. lol

For Amazon, the golden goose is Prime. If you don't attack Prime, they won't feel it. I just dropped my Prime membership. I'm not on Twitter, but I'd love someone who is to share the tag #notprimetime to start a Prime boycott over this.

Rainbow Dave I appreciate you trying to be fair and balanced and holding judgement until you see the actual show. Me expectations at this stage couldn't be lower. I sincerely doubt they will be explaining that the black dwarves, elves and hobbits have come from the South and East. Instead they will just be mixed in there the same way they have done with other modern shows like the Witcher, Asgard in the MCU, Wheel of Time etc. where we're supposed to accept it as normal that in medieval cultures it was normal to have a mix of races all sprinkled together like we have in the modern era. Anyone who dislikes this is of course branded a racist when the actual objection is that it is unrealistic and lorebreaking. It's looking like they are using the reputation and established fan base of LOTR to tell the woke fantasy story THEY want, full of diversity and inclusion, rather than the story that Tolkien fans want. We've seen this same thing play out over and over again with so many other established fanbases in recent times that it will frankly be an incredible surprise if this is not the case. Sad.

@luizgustavosmolarek4440

Жыл бұрын

The "sad" at the end made me imagine Donald Trump saying this lol.

@archvaldor

Жыл бұрын

"I sincerely doubt they will be explaining that the black dwarves" Dwarves were explicitly based on the Jews Of Antiquity. Tolkien was explicit on this. So technically they would all be brown-skinned for this to be consistent.

They will ruin it, they will ruin it all, all we hold dear and great as it is, they will ruin it. I'm very sad.

@oliveremmettknox7776

2 жыл бұрын

No. Disney would ruin Tolkien's Middle Earth lore.

Easy solution: on one of Durin 4'ths drunken escapades in Harad, he had a love child. Disa was this child and she found her true father in Khazzudum after many years searching. We then get a character conflict between the two.

YOUR OPINION IS DEEPLY VALUED!!

I think the short haired elves and other peoples will be the worst for me as just about every 10 minutes you will see one and be reminded.

I agree 100% about being on the fence. We can share ideas without vilifying eachother. Being fiction, I personally tend to give it more leeway if a character is depicted as a race unsupported by canon. But I generally prefer historical characters be depicted as their actual historically accurate race. Facts aren't racist, they just are the reality. And absolutely, two wrongs don't make a right. We're all human, regardless of outward appearance, so treating anyone other than how you wish to be treated yourself is just rude. Of course, we're all free to be jerks if we so choose, in my humble opinion.

@gonzaloarvietti4920

Жыл бұрын

Facts arent racist Amazing cuote

I stumbled on your channel and binged many of your playlists, but these two 'Rings of Power' videos, I believe, shine a little more light on who you are. Now I like and appreciate you even more.

Kudos for navigating dangerous waters without hitting anything that could sink the boat…

I have to say this is one of the most well thought out reactions to the new Lord of the rings show I have ever seen. The knowledge you possess on Tolkien is amazing. Thank you for the thought provoking reaction and please continue to explore Tolkien’s work. I really am enjoying all your videos.

The spirituality of man really is the core of the issue. Tolkien obviously spent a lot of time writing elves and dwarves to contrast them with men. My fear is that whatever anyone's skin color, which doesn't matter for the core of the story (although long hair matters towards spirituality so that's still kind of important across all the cultures) - my fear is that the spirituality won't be distinct enough, and it might be too exaggerated rather than implied. My dream would be to see an episode where men are starving, elves are frolicking and wasting food 'cause they don't really need much of it, and dwarves are trying to buy more than the land has produced for an annual feast. I want to see serious elves speak in riddles, serious men be dead serious, serious dwarves tell dark jokes. I would love to see happy elves singing, happy men chatting and dancing, happy dwarves working or eating. Make their responses to events different in flavor/style. Make even more differences between men, dwarves between dwarves, elves between elves to show where some individuals might have an affinity more or less towards one of the other races. There's so much storytelling that can be done when speaking about the fear of death for all the races, though their afterlife expectations differ. My biggest storytelling hope is with the elven - maiden romance. That is where I can see the most comparing and contrasting of all these features.

@mypeeps1965

2 жыл бұрын

Your only hope is if you write it yourself. I would love to read it. Your ideas sound fascinating. I believe your ideas are above the emotional paygrade of the current writers and Amazon as a whole. PS, I would donate pen and paper for the cause. Best wishes and take care.

@Srevengel

2 жыл бұрын

Skin color does matter, the characters are different not only in race, but among their own people as well, It's part of what distinguish them from each other, part of what makes them considered different tribes. Now maybe, in the future of Middle-earth, the tribes of men could look like our modern society, with tribes of men mixing with each other, but everyone? In the second era? Meh...

I almost never comment on KZread videos, even though I spend a lot of time on content like this. I barely stopped myself leaving an answer to your video on the morality of my beloved Feanaro (many things I had to say), but here i feel compelled to say what a marvelous job you did. You summed it all up not just analitically, but also artisticly. The points you made, and the message at the end were truly beautiful! Keep up the good work!

Your ten points are well made and taken. More than enough people have gone through the issues with the various characters looks in comparison with the lore and taken the hit for it. What worries me about the created dwarven and elven characters, is what it shows of the productions intent. I have more of an issue with how it was messaged. I think the two vanity fair articles are lessons on how to troll fans all by themselves. These two characters were the first information given about the new show. They talk about racist troll fans in the same interview that they released the images in. It's hard not to believe that they were pushing for a specific response using these images. If their intent is using the extreme comments to ignore all fan feedback, doesn't that suggest that they plan on making so many changes, as to make it unrecognizable? You don't troll the fans this way if you think they are going to love what you are doing? The images from the teaser made me cringe a bit too - the female dwarf in a dress with gold dust smeared all over her? The male elf is seen creeping about the forest, then chatting up what we have been told is a human single mother, then you see him fighting in the forest and then you see him fighting with an axe while shackled around the ankle? Neither are the best looks for the only characters played by POC. They have messaged that they are changing the existing characters histories as well as compressing the timeline, which will affect how the story progresses. Surely that also affects cannon and how the third age is born? Nowhere have I seen it mentioned that Galadriel is over 5000 years old at this point and married? They are adding Hobbits and Wizards to the second age because? Who replaced Tom Shippey as their Tolkien scholar and why is that scholar ok with this?

I knew you were a channel worth following, now you have cemented that feeling.

This aged remarkably well. Almost prophetic.

The only fear of Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. That anybody watches it, if you watch it you'll be sending these people money in one way or another.

@majkus

2 жыл бұрын

I am not an Amazon Prime member, so this may be a dumb question. Do Amazon Prime people get these productions for free, or do they pay an additional premium for access? If the former, then Amazon will only make money if a great many people pay out for new Prime subscriptions just because of this show.

The longhair def. Made the elves stand amongst themselves…now it looks like a fantasy show from CW, with simply generally good looking people portraying elves, and giving them one less unifying characteristic

This was a brilliant video thank you. I share some of the same concerns about consistency with casting and respect for world building, but you managed to voice them a lot more elegantly than I could have done.

Thank you very much!!! This was really so interesting. I much appreciate the time and effort you put in making this video. Greetings from the Netherlands. Subscribed.

It is confirmed by the showrunners that Durin 3 also will be in the show.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Sigh

@partyrocklucas

2 жыл бұрын

ShowRUINers

@geir8849

2 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled sigh of relief or despair?

@oliveremmettknox7776

2 жыл бұрын

I knew Durin III will not be left out.

@benjaminbraghtley515

2 жыл бұрын

@@geir8849 im sure despair

From the advertising this show is getting, my biggest fear has already come to pass. The fear that they think there’s something inherently wrong with Lord of the Rings. The fear that they think they’re fixing it. Trouble is, you can’t fix what isn’t broken.

I am really concerned about short Elven Haired Characters as you said Long haired men and elfes add the sense of Mythology and i don't want the character of Finrod Felagand to be ruined by anything literally anything he was described as the Fairest Elf he is just the loveliest and the most friendly and i have never imagined him like that elf we see fighting in the teaser i actually it didn't come to my mind that he might be Finrod untill i saw everyone saying this might be Finrod and i was like NO PLEASE NO NOT FINROD . also the most thing i am worried about more than non bearded dwarf lady more than anything else is that they change the main theme to epic battles and fights for political reasons and epic battles ofc epic battles are amazing but not if they forget the main themes the friendship the fellowship and all the other things that makes middle earth the magical place it is and really close to our hearts but at the end of the day i will watch the show for the sake of watching a tv show that somehow have some touches of a place i love at the end of the day Tolkein original works are still here for me to enjoy there is nothing that can make me stop enjoying a Tolkein vibe show

Hello Dave! Your points about skin colour are spot on! It makes me happy to listen to inteligent people like you! In a disscusion I was having online about this, I said that there are a lot of Moriquendi we have not met, also dwarwe: ironfists, stiffbeards, blacklocks, stonefists and petty dwarves; so as long as they have these backrounds they can have any skin colour whatsoever.

@alexr6092

2 жыл бұрын

I find it sad just how many disclaimers (about not having racial biases) have to be added, even in a most balanced, apolitical, and lore-respectful video I have seen so far. This seems like a perfectly reasonable argument -- work diversity into your worldbuilding, like Game of Thrones did. But these days it needs a disclaimer, and it would still be more than enough to be accused of -isms.

@fiserdaniel

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexr6092 I'm sad we even have to bring it up! But they butcherd the lore of so many francises in these last years that we became vary of any type of political message taking the forefront. Let's hope that whomever is involved in making this show loves Tolkien's world as much as we do.

A very important topic, thank you for trying to set the correct tone for the discourse, regardless of legitimate fears.

Best Tolkien channel

My biggest concern is the timing. It would have been really interesting to see new human characters every season and building up to the iconic characters in later seasons.

Subscribed. Brilliant, measured, and good-natured piece. Bravo.

Galadriel walked amongst the Valar in the time of the two trees and crossed the Helcaraxe watching her people die in droves. My fear is they will portray her as an angsty WB teen or the hollywood cookie cutter "strong woman" with the "agenda".

It's to me about as interesting as a documentary about Icelandic wildlife if Iceland only had lions and zebras.... by that I mean the story of this show is completely pointless if it's disregarding so much of Tolkien's original lore, it's basically a bootleg copy. Sure, the show may be exciting in itself and have an intriguing story etc, but if it's their own thing they shouldn't brand it with Tolkien's name. Btw, I've heard that the woman climbing a mountainside or something is supposed to be Galadriel, why would she wear such poorly maintained chainmail? Elven stuff can break, sure, but it's not worn out like that. And what is that on her head???

Great takes all, but when it comes to this series I just gotta sit it out. The stench of Bad Robot is all over this thing and so far there's absolutely nothing that's entered their clutches that hasn't had its soul ripped out and processed into corporate sludge.

The show's first season finale has at this time come and gone. Now I'm rewatching this video and it's rhetorical to ask if the show has validated or dismissed any fears we may have had going into the first few episodes. Sadly all of our fears combined couldn't have been worse than what Amazon actually showed us. It is obvious that from the beginning they had little to no intentions of following Tolkien's lore or hardly referencing it for that matter. This was an egregious mockery of what Tolkien created and it saddens my heart to imagine what could've been compared to what they actually produced....I shall now rewatch Rainbow Dave's untanglement of Beren and Lùthien which is done with all the knowledge, insight, respect and love that Amazon should have given The Rings of Power..

What I worry about is I know they COULD have shown Harad and the south and the east and incorporated diversity in the casting of those peoples but KNEW that swapping out the dwarves and elves race would signal the most virtue and cause the most "hey look we're woke" headlines and that's why they did it. Because they're doing that, it makes me question every other decision they're making.

@crhu319

2 жыл бұрын

They might do both. Disa for instance may be a dwarf from a far south mountain range. Where beards are not adaptive as no one needs to stay warm. And where mining may be open pit so skin gets darker. Ancient Britons were dark as coal just after the ice ages.

@justinparker7712

2 жыл бұрын

@@crhu319 given the way they've put it front and center in the marketing, I doubt they will say a word about it

You've convinced me to get the books. I'm so cheap, I don't buy books. I only borrow them or look for free audio books online, but in this case, since I've been a soft fan for decades, it's time for me to read or listen to the entire series, beginning with The Hobbit.

@FranktheDachshund

Жыл бұрын

Skip the Hobbit and jump directly into the trilogy. Pick up the Hobbit after the Silmarillion and the rest. Hobbit is a bit juvenile and sets the wrong mood.

Thanks so very much Rainbow Dave for providing this excellent follow-up vid to your initial, regarding this coming show. I have viewed many YT Vids on this topic and I can count on 2 fingers the amount I felt warranted a satisfaction rating from me (yes, you get one). I am by no means a Tolkien expert but I am an enthusiast, that cares deeply for the subject material. Though I can agree that all the points you raise are worth note, I disagree with your willingness to let some things be inevitably disregarded, if the over-all product comes to satisfy a modicum of your expectations. I would suggest that now, at the early stage, is when we must voice our discontent most vociferously, with the bending and manipulation of Tolkien's Lore to meet some grandiose plan by the creators to put their own "stamp' on the product. I feel that if we are willing to let what 'they' consider unimportant points of diversion flourish, then that is quite simply a signal that they can then go further and embellish their distorted ideas without concern. That, I will not and cannot abide. All signals witnessed so far (and I don't just mean the trailer but their responses to concerns raised), in my point of view, portray a billion dollar vanity fan-fiction project, that will bear very little semblance to the incredible stories I've grown to love.

Here's a novel concept: Each age has its own big-bad. You could do 2 or 3 seasons for each age. Showing the implications of each charavyers actions rippling through the ages. Or ya know, condense it all into a few episodes and then jam it all together into a few seasons.

At 10:40 you gave a great example, I miss that show, been years since I watched it since I am overseas and region locked...I even forget the name, but I remember it exposed me to the Norse invasion of the older kingdoms of Britain.

@jeffwebber7325

2 жыл бұрын

'The Last Kingdom' is the name of the series.

@chaiwarrior111

2 жыл бұрын

That was it! Both it and Vikings were amazing, though.

My concern for my most beloved books (not just the works of Tolkien) which have been and will be adapted to film is the maintenance of the integrity of the books. I was only able to enjoy the Narnia movies once I had gotten over the initial shock and divorced the films from the books in my mind. They are too different, in my opinion, to be considered the same story. The soul of the books was traded for commercial gain. Most of concerns you’ve listed, to me, fall under the umbrella of safeguarding the integrity of the storyline. Your last concern is a very interesting insight. I tremble at the thought of your being right. As was the case with the Orcs, so many good things in the world have been corrupted and weaponized. Thank you for sharing! I truly enjoy your content!

The pic of Durin’s wife looks like she’s wise and soft spoken and a bit magic. That’s Galadriel’s character. Instead, Galadriel is shown as some feisty warrior princess, which would be a better personality for a dwarf wife. The dwarves were always at war with something.

Number five made me laugh out loud....” Mythology doesn’t really matter, except yes it absolutely does.”

It seems to me, (as a culture)we have lost, at least to an extent, the ability to debate one another without arguing, and we need to get it back. Having a different opinion is not necessarily a personal attack. I'm sure we have all been too harsh with someone who merely disagrees with us, at times.It stifles freedom of speech, and limits free exchange of ideas which can be detrimental to society in many areas. Great video Rainbow Dave.

finally someone summarizig the inherent problem with the race topic! very refreshing to hear rather then the usually "LotR must be white because europe". I totally agree with your view point that sure, it can not turn randomly diverse in middle earth, but there can be such thing as poc dwarfs and elves, but rather from southern places. Really good job on delivering on promised middle ground.

Thank you Dave for providing real quotes and showing the heart of Tolkien and for providing nuance to a very polarized discussion. I’m with you on staying on the fence, especially until we see what the show has to offer rather than just a very short teaser out of context. I think you expressed the fears and concerns in a moderate but eloquent manner befitting of the Tolkien fandom. It was astute of you to identify the extreme divisions we see as beneficial to marketing. The rationale helped me understand why this is happening and who this could benefit. More and more I see the opportunism present on both extremes. I just wanted to add that Arondir is from or around the town of Tirharad so it looks the show may be following your idea of having internal consistency regarding region and physical characteristics. As for Disa we don’t know anything yet but I hope she ends up being from an eastern tribe. I did notice that all the Noldor elves so far seen have all shared the northwestern traits as seen in Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel, as well as the casting for Celebrimbor and the very short scene of the ceremony in Lindon. Elrond has lighter than hair than in PJ’s film but his father Eärendil was blonde and his mother Elwing may have had silver or dark hair so I don’t think having dirty blonde or light brown hair is inaccurate.

Great video yet again! About your point two, what would you say - how could one identify what the core of a given work is? Does Tolkien elaborate somewhere on this?

Galadriel being an elven warrior and an elven ambassor in the Second Age is not as terrible as Tauriel being a love triangle with Kili and Tauriel.

@kementarie6216

2 жыл бұрын

So true! The addition of tauriel in the hobbit could have been an awesome example of female representation but we just got screwed over, and the same or similar thing will probs happen to galadriel smh

I suggest we stop calling them Amazon and refer to them as "The Platform of Power."

Excellent. I appreciate very much the tone and focus of the analysis, here.

Just found your channel and am loving your content and your even handed approach to RoP critique. Your short haired elves take was legit! It totally comes from a emotional place but I feel ya and I also need my long locked elves.

Very well said dave! I hope that they would notice and get you as part of the creative team for future shows or movies of tolkiens masterpiece..we need a true fan to pitch in ideas so it would still stay true as tolkien envisioned his mythology. 🙏

I also wonder how they're going to make Disa walk ("gait") and sound ("voice"). I'm afraid this will also be different from Tolkien's lore

@seanhartel5362

2 жыл бұрын

This would be akin to hearing some characters talk in an American southern accent in the show. It would represent something different to be sure, but would just be out of place and do the opposite of suspending our disbelief. I guess what everyone craves and expects is the generic British movie accent. Will be interesting to hear which accent they use.

Thank you for the tone you struck in this. You make such a good point about generic fantasy and anachronistic visual tropes vs Tolkien's aesthetics. It's really awesome to learn that Tolkien shared my abject disdain for the Normans, alongside the love for what came before.

I admire your goodwill and optimism, I really do. The movement responsible for these changes does not care for the middle ground though. All of these changes are deliberate; This is a billion dollar production. This end result we are being shown is _already_ the result of a compromise between their desire to broadcast political messaging and their desire to make money. If we start accepting these destructive changes, all it will do is encourage them to push harder. You'd just be setting a new normal for them to challenge. _That's what they want._

You touched very nicely on the ethnicity issue. Great video!

Best video on this topic so far! Very clear headed and fair. Much love! Btw I'm working on a art piece of Morgoth, with plate armor... you destroyed my passion slightly. But he's a valar so perhaps they can have whatever armor they wish? Or am I defiling Tolkien? Lol

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Nah not at all. Definitely make your art. I feel like the rules don't really apply to Valar in the same way, and also (without wanting to get too word nerdy) Morgoth and his orcs are the one part of Middle-earth where I do feel that armour would work. Iron is associated with Morgoth over and over and over, and so I feel like giving him hard, dark, heavy, iron armour would work very well. Although as an artist, do whatever feels right for your art 😊

@mlebrooks

2 жыл бұрын

You do you

Great video, sir! I can say that I agree with you whole heartedly. Solid points made and the way you articulated your concerns was sound. Well made, cheers!!

Rewatching your excellent and prescient analysis two years later only proves how incomprehensibly superior in every conceivable way your take on a Second Age show is.

You pretty much exactly espoused all of my own concerns. What the creators of the show, and many who tell us who don't like these changes to shut up, don't realize is that, yes, any one of these changes on its own might not be a big deal but the aggregate of the changes might not make it feel like Tolkien's world in the end!

We’re way past fears, they’ve made decisions that render it irredeemable in my eyes, honestly I have no interest in watching the show at this point

Very impressed with the scope and depth of your Tolkien knowledge. I think had the showrunners had you approving, disapproving, commenting et al many if not most of the bad things we're hearing or thinking about would be avoided. This was a fascinating video. Thank you.

Very intelligent and insightful commentary, Dave. Your love and appreciation for the tales of Middle Earth is clear to see in every word 😄

A lot of these points come back to why tolkein made all this in the first place. The Roman's and later French sacked the culture right out of the British isles. He wanted to give something back to a land that had lost its ancient oral traditions and such. Just give a fun fantastical lore to look back upon. There's a lot of forced inclusivity and alterations apparently in this new work that undermine his original vision. I love all creeds and cultures, but suppressing Tolkein's Anglo roots to make room for every other type is actually like the bullied kids turning into bullies haha. We'll just have to see. I am HIGHLY skeptical they are gonna pull this off with all the cringey prerequisites it seems to take nowadays to even get something made.

Sadly I think some of the fears are either being confirmed or perhaps even worsened. According to a leak (idk if it's truthful or not), Halbrand is suppoused to be a Numenorean cavalry commander, which if true would mean that the showrunners decided to give cavalry to the one culture aside from Dwarves that Tolkien described as having no cavalry, and that they decided to give anything cavalry-releted in Middle Earth a Rohirrim aesthetic, probably because the suits thought that would bring in more views or whatever. As for Durin III and IV, there was an article confirming that Durin III would feature in the show, played by an actor who "knows how to play a bad dad", which all but confirms that, yes, Durin IV will likely be Durin III's son. This *might* be averted if they treat the forging of the rings and the war between the Elves and Sauron as a prologue sort of thing and the show focuses on the spreading of the rings and the corruption of the future Nazgul as they said they would (there was even a theory that the scene in the trailer of Durin III breaking a big stone was a ritual sorta like what Tibetan Buddhists do to decide their next Dalai Lama, giving the one assumed to be his reincarnation specific items that belonged to the previous one to see if they can "recognize" them), but I feel that might be a bit of a stretch. On the topic of names and Hobbits, I did see people arguing against switching the Harfoots for Druedain because Tolkien never described them as dark-skinned, but on the linguistic context which would have been extremely important to Tolkien it would've made more sense. Maybe they'll just be called "halflings", or maybe they can justify their usage of the word "Hobbit" by saying they met the Northmen of Rhovanion before and adotped the monicker of "hole-dwellers", who knows. More concerningly, the Hobbit girl appearing on the trailer has been confirmed to be called "Elanor", like Sam's daughter, which is a big problem because Elanor is he name of a flower that only grows in Lorien, after which Sam named his daughter, and since no Hobbit really ever visited Lorien until the four fellowship lads showed up in the Third Age (pretty sure some Galadhrim would remember that, I doubt they'd be able to sneak past them) it doesn't really make sense that she'd be called Elanor. Still on the topic of names, the name Bronwyn is basically Old Welsh for "white raven", which might not be that big of a problem if she's one of the Middle-Men and the showrunners are trying to give a Celtic spin to their culture, which would be fitting with Tolkien's cultural inspirations... Assuming they are casting her as a native of the regions that would become Gondor and that that's what they mean by "southlands", and that's she's not as some think it's being implied, a Haradrim, which would make no sense both in costuming, ethymology and the casting choice. As for the race thing yeah, even Carl Hostetter held your own opinion. Arondir being dark-skinned can make sense (sans US marine haircut) if he's said to be an Avari Elf from a group that migrated south. He is described as "Silvan" but that might just means he hails from southern forests not mentioned by Tolkien, because if that means he's from the same race as the Lorien and Greenwood Elves who are almost all described as blondes then that would make no sense whatsoever. Same with Disa (sans shaving), if she's from one of the eastern houses (I mean there's a house even called the Blacklocks for crying out loud) then it makes sense, if she's a Longbeard no. Three other massive concerns I have are the apparent firing of Tom Shippey for merely giving an interview and the "not naming any other Tolkien scholar involved in the show" implying that they either got none or that they simply hired yes-men, the inexperience of the two showrunners or the fact that they openly said they hired most of the actors without the actors even knowing what characters they were going to play. As for the number 1 fear, that's the fear I'm less concerned about. I think the fandom can survive a bad show, and that most of us are smart enough (or at least not dumb enough) to start attacking eachother over opinions on a show that (in all likelyhood) will blame Tolkien fans themselves for their faliure, if it fails. Unlike, say, the Star Wars fandom (my deepest condolences to them) Tolkien stuff is larger than just one medium, and the massive amounts of fan projects and the amount of engagement will likely not be too battered by this faliure. And if all else fails at least we have the War of the Rohirrim to look fowards to, hopefully.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Very well said! I actually saw that Elanor Brandyfoot thing just after I uploaded this video, and it annoyed me so so much. I reckon you're right that the fans can survive this come what may. We've had bad adaptations before.

@thinkwithurdipstick

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, because when I think of dwarves, a people obsessed with tradition and limited reproductive options, I think bad parent. They take fantasy cultures and try to make them far too relatable to modern people and issues. Btw Blacklocks would most certainly refer to their hair being black (which isn’t unheard of for other clans), not their skin color

@alexr6092

2 жыл бұрын

That is some very interesting thoughts. I like how you are coming up with creative solutions of how the Durin situation could be fixed. Maybe Tom Shippey could have told them that too. But, we all know, they are just going to be father and son and probably have some sort of Game of Thrones politics thrown in on top of that.

@Mateo-oq7ui

2 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled Funny thing is if they wanted to have the name of one of the characters allude to Sam they could've just made her last name Gamgee, Sam was a Harfoot after all.

@Mateo-oq7ui

2 жыл бұрын

@@thinkwithurdipstick I'm hoping by "bad dad" they mean he's some sort of badass characters rather than an attempt at a daddy issues plotline because that'd suck so bad. Also yeah, Blacklocks definitely would've been black haired, not necessarily dark skinned but it's something where Amazon could realistically say they were dark skinned and wore dreadlocks or whatever.

Hey Dave, love your videos. Could you do one on what happens to orc souls after dead? If they're corrupted men/elves, do they share their fates?

Mate, thank you so much for this refreshing vid, really appreciate it.