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I am half way through this story and it seems to me its about questioning "reality" as we presume it to be subjectively as various humans, and in the larger sense, as beings living in a cosmos of which we have little understanding of how reality works, if it does at all. It feels like a mixture of philosophy and quantum physics, the later of which Borges himself was not completely privy to in 1940's. It's not an easy read, but he questions truth, the truth, any truths and puts them in perspective on a larger landscape of possibilities that go beyond what we as humans on earth can understand. All is relative inside and out. He mocks philosophy, history and material objects and the human condition which means to feel "right" about everything one has been exposed to regardless if it is real or not.

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing

This is probably my favorite analysis you two have done. Wittgenstein's thought experiment works so well with this story. When I read this, after your recommendation, I was so stuck on Berkeleyan immaterialism, and it didn't help with the reference haha. I will definitely be rereading this a few hundred more times. 😅Uqbar is a real place!! It existed near Atlantis!!

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Atlantis was the best spring break location.

Borges is mind blowing! Good call out w “discover” and reminds me of Gabriel Garcia Marquez has the “conocer” line with ice in 100 Years of Solitude. Una’s philosophy questions seem to come more from the text but it’s all cool to hear regardless. This channel is great at getting people to think.

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome. Glad if can get people to do that!

I just started reading the first few pages in Spanish and there are so many details! I am really glad I stumbled across your channel bc it gives me a POV as I read this for the first time. The concept of what makes something True or Real or Tangible in this age of digital "misinformation" is really interesting. The majority of people don't really credit books or encyclopedias anymore so getting a sense of what is credible in the technology landscape is really fascinating bc you cannot actually touch or flip through ideas like we used to 20+ years ago.

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

Great point! Love it when authors can stay so relevant years later

So much to analyze in this story/essay. Some additional points I would like to add. Borges is very careful with his writing, he doesn't tend to add anything unnecessary. He says that Bioy recounts this quote, however later he reveals that Bioy didn't remember the quote correctly. I believe he did this to show how easily a reproduction can be distorted, such as a printing of two different books that should be the sa.e can be distorted with just a few pages missing. The other part I would like to ad is to go with the later part of your discussion about whether Tlon is real or not. On Tlon, everything is of the mind. Ideas are reality because they are in your mind. Because of this, when Borges enlightened you of the existence of Tlon, did he not just make it real since it is in your mind. However, if you don't think like a Tlonian, it may not be real. So to me I think Tlon is both real, and simultaneously not real, or rather it is up to you whether it is real or not. Some info about Borges from outside of the story/essay. In the preface to first edition of "A Universal Histery of Iniquity" Borges says, "I sometimes think that good readers are poets as singular, and as awesome, as great authors themselves." I think of this is him saying that the interpretation of a reading is just as valid and imaginative as the one who wrote it. In "Versions of Homer" Borges makes it unmistakably clear that every translation is a "version" -- not THE translation of Homer (or any other author) but a translation, one in a never-ending series, at least an infinite possible series. -Andrew Hurley. I think this further emphasizes the importance of one owns interpretation, and repeating of texts, no mater how distorted they may be.

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for adding to the convo

How great a video this was! I love everything I read from Borges. And this one was one of the first contacts I had with the author. And was a mindblowing experience. What I love about what you guys touch upon was the "language" discussion. The Author makes us experience this "defect" on the language through the text itself and that can be fun and sometimes so hermetic that, for times, I thought I was stupid. But Seeing you guys struggle as well make me admire even more this genious. "Language" was one of my favorite subjects in my graduation and this kind of debate that the tale brings us is so amazing to behold. Seing your talk it made me remember I recent read as well, "City of Glass" that deals with the problems of language and its literarity. I mean, the comic book adaptation by Mazzucchelli. I didn't get a chance to read the original text by Paul Auster, but seeing in another midium it made my head hurt. The complexity, the inventiveness and the questions the book brought were amazing. Talk about questioning reality and its meaning, of what is real and whats not, what a word means and what all of this represent for all of us on a bigger picture. I mean, I'll shut up, but I really have to thank you guys for this reflection today and for remember me of this tale. ps: I'll have to check if you did "FUNES THE MEMORIOUS", but this is another one that brings a lot of language questions, expecially what it means for a mind to kept all that ever seen and if this someday will be meaningless. Ah, "The Library of Babel" have something of this as well. Anyways, thanks! I was missing for a while, But will marathon some of your videos, especially the Lispector ones!

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Oh wow. I’ll have to check these out. I haven’t read these

@igorfrederico2629

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheCodeXCantina Just remembered, but "El Aleph" is one of these bunch about the possibilities of languages. In this one, a person finds a thing call Aleph that shows everything in the whole world at the same time, a omnipotent artifact that is in a fixed plce in a corner of a basement. Nothing makes sense, but actually everthing does makes sense. Is awesome to read.

To enter the Borgesian literary world, I have listened to the audiobook (Cuentos Completos de Jorge Luis Borges)to get a feel for how the story is being told. Then I will do the actual reading in Spanish. I also like to analyze the English vs. Spanish translations to compare and contrast the linguistic nuances. The story is so entrenched in contextualize language, which makes a close reading challenging yet rewarding.

@TheCodeXCantina

6 ай бұрын

That’s great.

Great talk. To clarify on when Krypto said "Tlön, Uqbar" three or four times as if it was a state/city and even conflated the two sometimes in his statements: Uqbar was allegedly the place in our real world and Tlön was the place that was 'of the mind' and an imaginary/fantasy creation of people who lived in Uqbar and was never under consideration to be real.

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Did he? I was probably lost in my own mind space as this one is so complex! Thanks for watching.

One thing often mentioned here, but only mentioned, is that almost all Borges stories are rooted in our physical world here and now. He mentions that a character comes from Germany or Argentina, or that something was mentioned in a work by (James) Joyce, or as in this case the Encyclopaedia Britannica. But if you look even closer you will notice that the reference is wrong. The author is real, but the book is not. So in this case, the 1902 Britannica only had 24 volumes, but Uqbar is supposedly in volume 46. If you take the trouble, you will usually find out that the reference appears genuine, but isn’t. BTW: Did anyone else here notice the similarity between Uqbar and Ubik? Ubik sounds a bit like a translation of the Spanish Uqbar into English. Especially the non-logical nature of the worlds. Just something that crossed my mind.

I truly love this novel and the translation version（Chinese）is also great

Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tortillas? 🤔 haha, your pronunciation at the start was really funny. Excellent video!!!

@TheCodeXCantina

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah. It’s almost embarrassing to admit this is us trying to pronounce things well. Slowly getting there!

Beautiful video

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

🙏

Fascinating ideas/discussion. I feel like I need a talisman to ground me in reality as you explore the questions of it, but then I begin to question the reality of the reality that the talisman is in. 🙃🤯

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Ha. That was a perfect way to describe

As a suggestion, for English translations - read the Norman di Giovanni translation and avoid the one by Andrew Hurley.

@behemoth5344

7 ай бұрын

I've read the one by Alastair Reid.

I have to read it 2 times, sadly I don't have to Spanish version, I think he is trying to explain an idea and use a short story to explain his point, I did take it more for the religion concept, I think he saying that you can not believe everything people said because humans are the ones who're telling you their ideas and they are always will try to put you on their side.

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Very cool! I like the scenario

This guy, man...this guy

@TheCodeXCantina

2 жыл бұрын

Believe

I don’t speak Portuguese neither. My present memory of this undefined real world tells me Borges writes in Spanish. 16:58 😉

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

😂

At 16:55 he said "i don't speak portuguese" This was very interesting to me as a brazilian because all the time people think we talk in spanish here (and we actually use portuguese), so that's kinda funny to me

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

After I had Krypto read three strait Brazilian reads too. Glad you could find some humor in it! Have a great day

@captain_cloudd

Жыл бұрын

@@TheCodeXCantina have you read Machado de Assis? He's awesome

@TheCodeXCantina

Жыл бұрын

@@captain_cloudd He’s amazing! I’ve only read short stories. I plan to read his novels this year

Yes that same thought of the object, the name, on the Cratylus Plato brings the idea of the name being the substance of things , and the name is the totality of any subject , the Verb the word of John 1:1:14 as the creation force, which John was directly pointing at the School of Philo of Alexandria , who saw the word as the creation force but the word was elusive ( The name is the word the word is hidden in ciphers as Borges points in El Golem ) , thus the word and the name points to the Hashem , interestingly in the Spanish biblical translations ,the word is also the verb thus the name is action in itself like Paul says “Dunamis”….that has the Power to create . As you say Wittgeinstein in the Tractus tries to dig the limitations of reality , as things in this case are compunded by the variations and the atoms that happen to be there at that exact moment , thus , the true of a thing is only true at the moment is seen , otherwise is only a representation , and is then subject to the observer’s subjectivity and the limitations ( temporal and spatial and experiential) versus the limitations of the language and the limitations of the medium, thus we have the limits, the space time problems , and the confusion , like Babel we have limitations of language in even in our own language! For that reason in the Golem Rabbi Loew cannot create another Adam , he makes an homunculus , a creature that makes him lament , probably the same lament that G’d in the highest has for his Rabbi in Prague…

Nothing is true. Religion or culture. True in the sense of the scientific method…which is only ‘true’ from what questions we ask.