Pelisipia comes from Pellissippi, a name given to the Ohio river, and then to the Clinch river. It derives from "Mosopeleacipi", meaning "river of the Mosopelea". Mosopelea is the name of an Amerindian tribe who historically lived near the upper Ohio River. source: "The Winding River Home: Pellissippi State researches the meaning of ‘Pellissippi’."

@texasyojimbo

5 ай бұрын

Came here to say the same thing.

@mooveegal

5 ай бұрын

ohh so more s’s and p’s again

@Aydin-Adam

5 ай бұрын

​@@texasyojimboyeah.....me, too... 🙃😂

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

And as others have already noted, the Assenissippi River is the Rock River in Illinois.

Wow and I thought our current map had too many straight lines . His proposal is somehow 10x worse.

@pradhyunmudaliar6606

5 ай бұрын

But seriously, those straight lines on US map look crap especially Colorado and Wyoming. On what basis did they divide the state?

@minelayer26

5 ай бұрын

@@pradhyunmudaliar6606lines of latitude and longitude

@pradhyunmudaliar6606

4 ай бұрын

@@minelayer26 Oh, that makes sense.

@MikeBronson515

4 ай бұрын

What’s the beef with straight lines, and why is important if they do, or don’t look “pretty” on a map? How is that a priority?

@MikeBronson515

4 ай бұрын

And yet everyone here is allowed vote

The proposed name for Eastern Ohio didn't completely die. Marietta, the first permanent settlement in Ohio is in the area Jefferson had laid out to be named Washington. It is in Washington County.

10:34 Saratoga, New York has entered the chat... right where the Mohawk Nation called home.

Saratoga,NY? Battle of Saratoga 1777? I don’t think there were any Mohawks in California, I’m sure NY was first.

I'm not a fan of straight lines for borders, I prefer it when the border corresponds to real features in nature. therefore, maps are more informative because such a border shows the importance of a river or mountain for a nearby town or city.

@ndwiggins23

5 ай бұрын

It's also much smarter to build with the environment for ease of transportation, it would have been so smoked if this went through 😂

@miguellopes7627

5 ай бұрын

Same

@straightrippnable706

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, when those aren't available ie: Canada / America west of the lakes, the coordinates don't move ; I'm aware of some borders with land on both sides of a river, because the river was once the boundary and shuffled a little in migrating.

@justinarzola4584

5 ай бұрын

It's easier to draw a border by things like rivers or mountains or some other geological feature that connects places together,Some us states,african and asian countries should probably be reconfigured to account for that cause those old colonial borders don't make sense.

@FlyingAlfredoSaucer

4 ай бұрын

​@@straightrippnable706An example of countries with territory on two sides of a river used for a border are Mexico and Canada, as the Rio Grande has shifted a fair amount in the past ~170 years or however long.

Saratoga is probably a reference to the Revolutionary War Battle in upstate New York in 1777. It is arguably the single most important victory for the American side, as it convinced France the Americans could realistically the war, and resulted in the French formally joining the war on the American side.

Saratoga Spring NY existed in 1776, and it was a settlement before that. Saratoga CA came decades later.

@phrog849

5 ай бұрын

Also the site of the Battle of Saratoga, arguably the most important victory for the Americans in the revolution.

@kevinkelleher8708

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, I posted earlier, Saratoga Springs was just that a "spring", no municipality or anything in 1777

Fun fact: There are a lot of airports in different countries named after leaders.

@ruffkuntry2574

5 ай бұрын

Fun fact: Donald Trump thought there were airports during the revolutionary war.

@Jay_0746

5 ай бұрын

​@@ruffkuntry2574Plot twist: That was actually sleepy Joe LOL 😂

@RJDA.Dakota

5 ай бұрын

@@Jay_0746that sounds more like it.

@ruffkuntry2574

5 ай бұрын

@@Jay_0746 You would think so with his history of gaffes. Yet, this came out of the man who has a hard time with the word ‘yesterday’ LOL

@__Nebula__

5 ай бұрын

I think everyone knows most airports in the Us are named after presidents

My guess is that Pelisipia has the same origin as "Pellisippi", an old name for the Clinch River (a river in SW Virginia and Tennessee). Even though Pelisipia would be more like modern eastern Kentucky, it's still close enough to the Clinch River where the name would kind of make sense. A number of things in East Tennessee are called "Pellisippi", for example Pellissippi Community College and Pellissippi Parkway (another name for Interstate Highway 140) in Knoxville.

@texasyojimbo

5 ай бұрын

According to Google "Pelisipi" is Cherokee for "the wandering waters", which is a name that could be applied to really any river, but specifically was applied to the Clinch.

@texasyojimbo

5 ай бұрын

Wikipedia also says that the name "Pellissippi" was also given to the Ohio River. Which makes a lot more sense. So 99 percent sure "Pelisipia" is just a reference to the Ohio River, or at least some river in the area.

as an allohistory buff, Jefferson's state proposals are among of my favorite suggestions and i'm hoping to eventually repurpose at least their names for one of my projects set in an alternate timeline (while it was originally very parallel to actual history, i eventually decided that i want to make the alternate US--which itself might be the _Unified_ States instead of the _United_ States--a case of "looks the same if you squint at it" with recognizably similar states but slightly subtle border differences, at least for the earliest of them, as well as ideally sharing no names with the actual states through various means, such as it being entirely possible that "New York" is "New Jork", pronounced the same, because of alternate linguistics where that type of J is never replaced by Y in English)

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

I did the same thing, though not with all the names. I kept Sylvania. Illinoia, Michigania, Saratoga, and Washington, corrected the obvious misspelling Cheronesus as Chersonesia, and shifted Polypotamia to Transpotamia. Also Charlotiana, Vandalia, Transylvania and Watauga made it as states

@nvagn

4 ай бұрын

I had a quite similar idea for my version of the USA, where borders would be almost the same, but changed in minor ways so they'd look more natural than the current ones, and where state names would be somehow different yet similar, and despite reading a lot of proposed countries and states I've never heard about Jefferson's proposals, but they seem so interesting and gave me a few ideas, like to give the upper peninsula of Michigan to some other state or how to change the borders of the southern states

5:56 The "vast French Louisiana Territory", was, at this time (1783), still Spanish. It had been since 1763, and would be until Napoleon forced Spain to hand it back over to France in 1801 (as the map at 6:32 shows) 13:31 Using the Falls of the Ohio as the basis of a north-south boundary was a stupid idea even then, as Louisville had already been established at the Falls around a decade before and was already a rapidly growing city. This would have resulted in one of the then-largest cities in the west to be immediately split, instead of using something that created borders empty areas and not immediately cut through settled land. But what really rendered things moot for this plan south of the Ohio River is that Kentucky was already well on its way to statehood (1792; and as the settlers there saw themselves as a whole, they would not want to be divided that late in the process), and Tennessee not too far behind (1796) - and that Georgia was hugely reluctant to give up its western lands all the way until 1802, when a land fraud scandal forced them to.

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

They would've easily and predictably "dodged" around Louisville by rerouting the border on the Kentucky side to the Ohio River west of town, then down the river to the Salt River, then upstream on the Salt back to the original meridian of the falls. There are plenty of examples of using nearby rivers when a particular straight line border creates an inconvenience, such as Indiana's western border being rerouted down the Wabash.

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

But yes the reality that Kentucky wouldve been split up definitely wouldve put the brakes on using the meridian of the Falls of the Ohio south of the river. It wouldve been fine on the north side though

West of the Mississippi River the states were organized a little more Jeffersonian. Except for Texas and California, you'll see states are much boxier, and stacked on top of each other. States in a region either have similar degrees of latitude, or similar degrees of longitude, making them much more equal.

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

*west of the Mississippi

@barkboingfloom

4 ай бұрын

@@fletchbg Thank you. I made a typo. 😄

Thomas Jefferson may have been good at alot of things, but drawing state borders wasn't one of them. A good example is he completely seemed to neglect the importance of access to the sea and navigable rivers in favor of having neat lines. That alone is such a big deal when it comes to just about every part of economic activity, both now and when he drew that map. And he should have known that - Jefferson was big on society being agrarian. Without good transport, how do you get the products of your farm to markets in cities? Or, if you think there shouldn't be cities, transport the products of your farm to other farms? After all, you aren't going to be growing tobacco in Michigan.

I remember how to spell "Mississippi" from a song on a children's show almost 40 years ago! 😂 MIS-SIS-SIPPI

@TheZett

4 ай бұрын

Melodic methods to remember the spelling are definitely the best ones: em eye - es es eye - es es eye - pee pee eye

Excellent vid as usual.

Don’t know if it helps for Pelisipia. A pelisse used to be a fur coat made of beaver which were hunted in great lakes region.

Just started watching this chanel, first i watched countries that could exist in the future then i watched part 2, then part 3 then other videos and i can't stop, great content keep it going❤😁

Excellent work

I think our country's history would've turned out a lot differently with those extra states.

Bro, I was LITERALLY just researching this proposal by Jefferson earlier this week, and now BOOM! General Knowledge posts a video about that very same topic two days later! I’m still stunned that this even happened 🤯

Also there is a Saratoga Springs in New York. You mentioned a Saratoga in CA.

@timmmahhhh

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I think this one is much better known. I've never heard of the city in California.

@danielzhang1916

4 ай бұрын

@@timmmahhhh it's part of the San Jose area, everyone here knows about it

If I recall correctly, the reason Michigan has the upper peninsula is because they were asked to cede part of their territory to Ohio. This was the so-called Toledo strip. Actually, the U.P. should be part of Wisconsin but, as I said, it was given to Michigan in exchange for a relatively small strip of land so Ohio could own(?) Toledo.

@JamieElli

5 ай бұрын

That's true. Strangely enough, until Indiana became a state, the upper peninsula was split 3 ways with the Illinois territory getting the western third, the Indiana territory the middle, and the Michigan territory got the eastern part.

@timmmahhhh

5 ай бұрын

That is correct. The History Guy channel has a good video on the Toledo strip and how its dispute almost led to a war.

@katieandkevinsears7724

5 ай бұрын

Michigan didn't give up any territory. It was already a part of Ohio. They just gave up the misguided claim on it.

@drivernjax

5 ай бұрын

@@timmmahhhh I remember watching that show.

@drivernjax

5 ай бұрын

@@katieandkevinsears7724 I'm not going to argue with you. I'm no expert but, I do know that the situation I described occurred after the Michigan territory had been organized. That's why Ohio had to petition Congress to gain possession of the Toledo strip.

6:30 - The reason the western borders were not defined is because the 'states' (at the time meaning nations, and prior to the Constitution, the fact of each newly free colonies situation), often had original charter claims to the lands between set degrees from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Those claims were not settled by the Articles of Confederation, as it had no power to settle such claims. These claims were still valid, to at least the Mississippi under the Treaty ending the war, and were often in conflict with rival claims. It wasn't until after the Constitution that west borders could legally be settled and mapped.

Please consider doing a video on how Iceland and Greenland almost became part of the USA

Great video.

And plus there’s a tiny bit of Minnesota that’s north of what we think of as the Canadian border.

As many have pointed out here, the state of Michigan did not include the upper peninsula originally. After the "Toledo War" between Michigan and Ohio, the Toledo Strip was given to Ohio and the upper peninsula was then given to Michigan. I always think of this as a consolation prize. While there was no war to speak of, there was the Battle of Phillips Corner. I just searched but cannot find what I do remember as a newspaper report on that battle. In it the reporter stated that the Michigan Militia fought "like wolverines"; hence, Michigan state's nickname. This may be my very own personal Mandela Effect. Or not.

@BiglerSakura

4 ай бұрын

Just imagine an unrealistic (?) dystopian scenario in which the US collapses into a bunch independent states like the USSR did, and they start fighting each other based on those almost forgotten territorial claims.

Can you make a series of videos about means of transportation?

Can you please make one video about Phantom Islands?

Saratoga is the name of a township in Upstate NY. It is the "Turning Point" (surrender site) of the American Revolution, where an Imperial British Army with, various "German" mercenaries, Loyalists, Canadians laid down their arms! General Philip Schuyler had a, for lack of a better term, Plantation there. The village name changed from Saratoga to Schuylerville in the mid 1800's. It is sometimes referred to as "Old Saratoga"! I read the exact same thing you sourced. Living here, I kinda take offense that you would mention california at all, it being from a later part of history

I usually watch your all videos and I notice you made so much videos about USA can you please make some videos about Australia

Also, Assenisipia comes from the Assenisipi River, today known as the Rock River, which runs through Rockford, IL.

hey can you please do a video on Scotland thanks from Scotland

I would argue that Jefferson's plan was successful. The main purpose of his plan to make it clear to the states that the "unorganized territory" was not going to be up for grabs by the 13 states, rather it will be organized by its own residents/settlers. Having a specific plan helps support that argument, even if he likely never intended it to flesh out that way exactly. It was also important that he was from Virginia, which was the state that made the largest claim. Once VA agreed to give up their claims to the West, it made it impossible for the smaller states to hold on to theirs, especially since those states didn't border the territory like VA did.

Meanwhile I've recently found myself getting into the concept of new states, both from history still relevant in the modern times, and those without historic context. So to hear of these is certainly interesting. Never knew of this plan. It is interesting how history has managed to both not happen to our relief, as well as not happen and now with hindsight recognize that maybe we should have given certain states statehood when they originally proposed the concept.

The land over the mountains being “mostly undisturbed” and “just empty territory ripe for the taking” (2:39) probably would have been news to the Native peoples (2:44) who lived there. It’s an unfortunately common misconception that stems from how the history of Manifest Destiny is uncritically taught.

The amount of 4 corner monuments we'd need if this plan went through.

As someone from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan… I wish Jefferson’s plan would have gone through!!

Pellisippi means winding/crooked river or something similar in Cherokee and possibly in related languages. Only know this because several things locally are named that.

Assenespia… the translation seems off compared to the others. In North Central Illinois, there is tributary of the Illinois River called the Rock River. There are numerous institutions and groups who use the name Sinnississipi (purportedly from the indigenous word for Rocky Waters). Likened to Mississippi meaning Muddy Waters. Wondering if Pelisipia might have similar origin.

Why is the UP of Michigan's ear cut off in most of the maps?

Article 4 Section 3 of the constitution should be withdrawn to allow for new states to be made from the territory of existing states because there are parts of states that would function better with their own local government or cities that just dominate whole states like NYC, Seattle, Portland and Chicago, which leads to a pretty large imbalance of power. There are also large cultural differences between say, NYC and Binghampton, Chicago and Springfield, Boston and Worcester, the list goes on.

@hanshawks5088

5 ай бұрын

Only if the Congress agrees to i😂😂😂

Me: Enjoying the video! 15:41 Me: How. Dare. You.

It appears that Jefferson's proposal would have added a lot more states south of the Mason-Dixon line. That could have resulted in a drastically different outcome to the Civil War, or possibly averted it altogether --- by making slavery last longer.

@JamieElli

5 ай бұрын

Depends, if slavery was banned in all states formed from the Northwest Territory, there'd have 10 free states and 6 slave states. If slavery was only banned in states above the Mason Dixon line, it'd be 8 free, 8 slave. In reality the region produced 5 free states and 4 slave states. So if it was 8 of each, California could've just entered as a free state without the fugitive slave act. I guess that might've postponed the Civil War a bit.

@arjaygee

5 ай бұрын

@@JamieElli My supposition was offered with the idea that slavery would have been banned north of the M-D Line.

@stevemathew5281

2 ай бұрын

​@@arjaygeeThe last state that ban slavery was New Jersey.

@stevemathew5281

2 ай бұрын

@@arjaygee January 23rd 1866.

@arjaygee

2 ай бұрын

@@stevemathew5281 New Jersey officially banned slavery in 1804 ( although slowly with the _Act of Gradual Abolition in New Jersey in 1804_ ). They did not ratify Amendment XIII until 1866, but they were not the last to do so. Texas ratified in 1870, Delaware in 1901, Kentucky in 1976, and Mississippi in 1995 (but they didn't certify their ratification until 2013).

Ill-line-eye. But using latitude degree designations and river/lake borders saved a bunch of surveying....not that it helped Michigan/Ohio border...which screwed Wisconsin.

When the "Washington" name was proposed -- during the years mentioned -- George Washington was not yet the "First" President of the U.S. In fact, Jefferson was working with one of the other sixteen "Presidents of the United States in Congress Assembled". So, I kinda doubt he proposed Washington's name because he would be the "First" President someday.

If that bit of western Pennsylvania had become the state of Washington, my own home state, Washington, could have kept its original and much more euphonious name of Columbia.

Jefferson's plan made far more sense with representation government that what happened. The Gulf Coast parishes and counties from Lake Charles, thru New Orleans to Mobile have much more in common with each than they have with their inland respective states ...true in 1808 and true today. Similarly for the Great Lakes counties and cities off Superior Huron Erie and Ontario. Attitudes as one goes down Lake Michigan differ greatly north to south, but align east to west. What instead happened is duplications of the western portions of the original states, once colonies, that had an open frontier boundary.

There's a bit of the legacy of the other plan left - where I live is part of Connecticut's Western Reserve - lots of place names mention it, Case Western Reserve University honours it, etc....

NGL, I live in what would have been called Sylvania and I must say, I kind of wish that had become a state. I say because I live in a part of that, that happens be in Wisconsin but all the politics of Wisconsin are down in Madison and almost never help up here. Plus our TV, News, and some of our radio media is in Minnesota and we are left out a lot in regular Wisconsin information. Next we are still in Wisconsin and yet it feels like Minnesota too. We are like the land that's rejected by both states. But with the way that Sylvania is shaped, it feels like where I lived would be way better off in that state than what we are in now.

10:39 why would you site Saratoga, CA and not Saratoga Springs, NY? It's a Mohawk word, and the Mohawk Indians lived in NY. Saratoga, CA was named after Saratoga Springs, NY because a mining company noticed the mineral deposits in the area were similar to those in Saratoga Springs, NY.

What if we limited states population? Once they reach a certain population they have to split?

But I thought Michigan got the upper peninsula in exchange for giving Ohio the Toledo strip!

Doesn't Pelisipia sound a lot like Greek, as in Peloponnesian War, between Athens and Sparta?

@lu0z9_the_I

5 ай бұрын

at this point I wouldn't be surprised if some people naming places had 50% greek ancestry

We got the UP, here in Michigan, as a trade of Toledo to Ohio, to prevent a war. I don't think the UP is any more worse off, than it would be as part of Wisconsin.

I say this as a Michigander--sorry you don't like how the Upper Penninsula looks on a map but it is part of our State and we are thankful for it

Moving to Metropotamia rnnnn

Most of the boundaries in the US and Canada are bad. They run right through towns (Lloydminster) and divide metropolitan areas like Kansas City. It comes from the belief that you needed to have boundaries before people settled. But there were better and well defined boundaries there before, known to the people who lived there.

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

Kansas City wasnt divided, it grew on the Missouri side first, then a second city was founded on the Kansas side and they were lazy when they named it

As a Michigander, i think the UP is a fantastic part of our state and it stays

African and Middle Eastern borders be like:

Imagine If we had 100 smaller states

(1) As some others have stated, following natural borders (when they exist) is much better than man-made straight lines. (2) If Jefferson's original plan for more states had occurred, and thus the power of the original states in Congress (both houses, but especially the Senate) had been diluted, this would have had very large implications to later history (in particular the political fight around events such as the Missouri Compromise and, later, the American Civil War.) But, an alternate history channel can extrapolate (with some research) the new start year for the American Civil War, the victor(s), etc... in this scenario. :)

The Thomas the Tank Engine addition is super random

I would want to explore how these states would have approach the slavery issue.

Thomas the Tank Engine named after Thomas Jefferson?? I can't find anything supporting this story. Where does it come from?

JT was a genius those state look better than the real ones.

Neat

We'd have done that many if we wanted the flag to just be stars

2:40- "Just empty territory ripe for the taking..." / "it was also home to several Native American cultures..." It's one or the other, both cannot be true.

I like states being recognizable by their shapes. Too many states in the Western half of the country have the same shape.

What exactly is wrong with the states in the eastern interior being called the eastern interior? That is quite literally there location.

Pretty sure the city of Saratoga in New York predates the one in California by a lot.

Saratoga was considered the turning point of the American Revolutionary War and the victory there in upstate New York proved to the French & other Europeans that the Americans could win & supporting the Americans would not be a waste of money. So no Saratoga is not just some city in Cali. Also there are natural Springs near where the battle took place and it developed into an early American resort/spa area for the rich and claims to be the site where potato chips were invented (not the fries but rather crisps)

Pelisipia is the Cherokee name for the Ohio River

I love his idea for Illinois. Most of us want Chicago in another state.

Seems like from the map split up, he knew almost nothing about the land. It reminds me of 1850 conference.

This video is brought to you by Squarespace. Literally.

Great video, I love early American history, but would also like to see more on the history of the states south of the Ohio river, my home state being one of them, shout out Kentucky! Have to say though, I'm glad we got named Kentucky, instead of some of the other proposed names for this state, Kentucky is still an original, I believe Native American word, that happens to be easy enough to pronounce and not to weird sounding either! You can go pretty much anywhere in the world and while they may not know the exact location, they have heard of Kentucky and I wouldn't have it any other way!

Hmm. Interesting 🤔

Within 2 hours!

8:30 Map of the United States of ***North*** America... Hmm, interesting...

Todo El Continente forma Parte de España desde 1492 De Polo Norte a Polo Sur

Thank goodness the east was spared from being squares

I do think certain state lines are unnatural, but his plan though maybe better is also unnatural.

Oversimplified: Strait line? Strait line.

Saratoga is the name of city in New York

i think we should combine all the north n south states into one

@itzgxlxxi

5 ай бұрын

east n west and vice versa

@stevemathew5281

2 ай бұрын

Hell no

Don't even try to come for our UP :P

The upper peninsula should be its own state. Superior.

Ahem, Michigan would be lost without the Upper Peninsula

I'm all for N. Wisconsin and N. Michigan to unify and create Sylvania.

I wouldn't mind if North Carolina stretched from the Atlantic to the Mississippi.

Jefferson and Washington were not close. They clashed a lot.

The current borders are much better than previously proposed, but they're still terrible, not only because they're random or detached from geography, but primarily because most of the current states will be unable to compete, or establish a respected position in the geopolitics as sovereign countries, if the US disintegrates, or forces them to separate, so they should rather unify with other states, and renogotiate their borders, this time in accordance to geography and economy.

The most well known Saratoga is in Florida

@UlisesHeureaux

5 ай бұрын

Saratoga is in New York though. I may be mistaken. It seems you’re thinking of Sarasota, Florida

@ubergeek1968

5 ай бұрын

@@UlisesHeureaux There are actually many Saratogas... including Saratoga Springs, Utah... so we are both correct

@fletchbg

4 ай бұрын

He's kinda right, although I think purely by luck. There's no town or city in Florida named "Saratoga" but there is a community of some kind with that name. So tell us, @ubergeek1968, where exactly in Florida is the place named Saratoga

@UlisesHeureaux

4 ай бұрын

@@fletchbg I looked into this. There is no Saratoga, Florida.

Nah, I am used to the current borders but I do agree that Michigan having the Upper Peninsula looks weird. But my partner might not exist if the Upper Peninsula was not a part of Michigan.

@BossXygman

4 ай бұрын

Michigan got the UP after a very heated dispute with Ohio over a strip of land containing Toledo. Ohio got the land, but Michigan was given the Upper Peninsula as compensation when it became a state.

@johnnyearp52

4 ай бұрын

@@BossXygman That is interesting 🤔

Saratoga NY? The turning point of the revolution?

I see American grid planning had an early start…

Stephen William Michigan find it really weird that we have the U.P. which consider the fact that the Mackinac bridge wasn't even built to the 1950 it doesn't make any sense why it's part of Michigan. Has anybody with half a brain can tell you it makes more sense for the up to be part of either Wisconsin or to be its own state.