i honestly don't think anyone would have cared about this practice at all except that a specific creator made sure to make a big fuss about it, which prompted his audience to do the same and said creator has a significant financial interest in opposing Launch Boom. an interest they in no way disclosed then they have the gall to claim that it is Launch Boom that is being manipulative and dishonest while they pretend to be consumer advocates when in actuality they are competitors of Launch Boom

I might be misremembering, but I did do the dollar pledge for their follow up game because we enjoyed Botany so much. I thought it said it was refundable if you decide not to back. It is possible that I misinterpreted it, my email confirmation doesn't mention it.

I think "line in the sand" is a good way of putting how I feel about it. I accept a lot of the marketing tactics used in the crowdfunding space and understand why they are utilized, but this is kind of that line for me. Asking for money before the campaign launches is crazy to me and it's not a trend I want to see continue and becoming more egregious so it's an easy pass for me if a creator wants to use it.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

And I think knowing that is super important, and feeding it back to project creators is doubly important. For me, i wouldn’t go for these preorders simply because, especially with the Geeknson campaign, there’s no benefit to giving the £100, the product is the same price, I just have to fork over a non-refundable £100. There may come a time where there is a perfect implementation of something like this, but we may just not be there yet (or there’ll be a new trend and we all move on the that 😄)

@iansutton7416

3 ай бұрын

The one thing that struck me as bizarre with asking for money pre-campaign, is where there's no information about what is being offered in the campaign. As someone who does heavy investigation of a campaign before committing to it, the idea of a blind payment seems reckless.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

I’ve seen a few people who’ve used this who have given extensive information on the core pledge and the items on offer but you’re right in that that doesn’t seem to be the norm

Comparing email collection turnover to $1 turnover is skewed data because they are completely different examples of emotional attachment. People giving email addresses understand that the delete button is easy to use. If they see more information and realize the game isnt for them, it's no big deal. A 10% turnover or lower is not surprising. When a person is asked for money, that's a whole different level of interest. If they are willing to put in their financial info, they already know that they are absolutely interested and that there is a high likelihood that they are going to back the game. I'm surprised that the turnover rate for this commitment is not higher than 50%. The data isn't skewed so much as it compares apples to oranges. For marketing companies to represent the turnover percentages as comparable is disingenuous at best. The marketing companies are using these figures to market themselves and the game companies that buy in are showing these bogus comparisons because that is what sold them in the first place. This is classic post-purchase rationalization. It doesn't look good that, when i pointed this out in the comments of Mark's video, my comment was deleted. It's his channel and he has every right to curate the comments however he sees fit but, by ignoring my point, it shows that discussion was not the main interest of his video. It also shows that he read my point and maybe, just maybe, there's not a good rebuttal to pointing out that the comparison is flawed.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

But then by extension should we not compare free gifts to email campaigns because there is also a different degree of emotional attachment there too? (I totally hear your point though, I’m just being difficult 😄)

@peterriecks9126

3 ай бұрын

I get that an incentive to be involved early is certainly beneficial to the creators, but any financial transaction before the campaign is just problematic. The whole purpose of crowdfunding sites is to provide a secure place to invest in ideas. If it becomes normalized to spend money on a different site before the campaign starts, it becomes easier for backers to get scammed. It's not the dollar that I'm concerned about. It's all of the financial information. If some first-time creator scams a few hundred people out of their credit card data, they would not have as much to lose as a company like Kickstarter would if they did the same thing. What's to stop anyone from just charging a dollar? If it becomes normalized enough, the creators could just charge the full price for a deluxe edition and just use Kickstarter to back the base editions (essentially making KS nothing more than a preorder site) unless the backers want to pay even higher prices. We already have base games, KS exclusives, and pre-campaign exclusives. It really is ridiculous. By using the $1 system, it tells everyone that you think this is a good idea. Clearly, I don't. I don't have a good solution. I just know that this is a bad direction for the community.

I know that is not the topic of this video, but what do you think about the $1 pledge in KS campaigns? What are their pros (I guess it allows people to take almost no risk at all before the PM opens) and cons (if all backers do that, then the KS will fail...)? Thanks! :)

Thank you for that considerate and calm thinkpiece. For many reasons, I have personnally stopped backing games (mostly), so I don't have a strong opinion as to the "good" or "bad" of this trend. But I would like to offer that there is something more to asking for a dollar instead of simply asking for your email or even asking to follow or subscribe to a pre-campaign for a specific bonus if I then back it. Because we are now talking about non-refundable real money, the technique introduces a version the sunk cost fallacy. I don't "waste" my email by giving it to the pre-campaign, but that 1$ will feel "wasted" unless I back the project.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

This is a very quick reaction response to your comment and so not a fully response by any means as you raise a good point (and also thank you for the kind words) but in every board game example I looked at (aside from Geeknson) the preorder money was 100% refundable. Although as I’ve said in another comment, it’s hard to know how willing people would be to go to the bother of going through the process to have it refunded.

@hagarthelucky

3 ай бұрын

@@shouldyoubackit Thank you for taking the time to look into this. I'm sorry I made a hasty assumption, and the money being refundable should lessen the feeling of potential loss for not backing in the end.

I appreciate your take on this issue. However, I’m still with Chris George on this marketing tactic. He showed how what launch boom said in their video (directed to disgruntled backers and content creators) differed to what they had on their web page (directed to potential customers). The difference was telling. And it makes sense. They’re a marketing company. It’s their job to make something look as great as possible while hiding anything that might not look so good. I don’t want my crowdfunding dollars to fill a marketing company’s coffers. I will vote with my dollar and stay away from projects that work with such companies.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Totally valid, I know RoomandBoard took a good portion of their video going through the article that you’re alluding to and while I could’ve dove into it I wanted to try and keep as close to the main topic as possible but I totally hear you

These conversion rates on the second or third ask, the big ask, have already filtered interest down through the first (or second) small request so what are we actually getting a 45-55% return from? 45-55% of that 10% that were converted by the first ask?? Not sounding that good when you look at it that way or have I misunderstood?

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

That’s a great question and I think your characterisation is correct but also not as bad as you think. So what Launchboom have said is that if you give the $1 you’re ‘30 times more likely to buy.’ If you give an email you’re 1-10% more likely to buy. You’ve correctly pointed out that with each step you’re in essence shrinking that pool of people, however from what they’ve shared it’s still converting to revenue. For example for Botany they had 8,734 people sign up to the mailing list (step 1 or 2 depending on how you’re looking at the funnel), 2,641 spent the dollar, and I can’t remember the exact number Dustin shared about people who backed from the dollar but I believe it was around 48-50 percent which converted to almost $100k. So although the pool of people is shrinking, it’s still bringing in a lot of revenue for the creator.

I have no issue with a $1 tripwire offer to get people to buy. I think it is a very powerful tool in the marketing toolbag. The big issue though is with it around crowdfunding. If someone like Stonemaier did a $1 pre-pre-order for a game I would be fine with it. Crowdfunding isn't a pre-order though. All the risk is on the backers with crowdfunding. Crowdfunding is an interest free loan to create something. So I won't back anything that has a $1 pre-order bonus. I know I am just one person but because of the fundamental difference between a true pre-order and crowdfunding, the $1 pre-order for a campaign is truly predatory.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Oh absolutely, if it was used as a piece of conventional marketing in the typical retail space it’d be a completely different matter but it seems out of place in the board game crowdfunding space. As others have said in the comments, it’s like crowdfunding the crowdfund

People that preorder games on kickstarter already victims of FOMO and they mental health not in a good place. We don't need more aggressive marketing tactics for this poor fellows.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Im not sure if this is what you meant but I wouldn’t classify everyone who backs something on crowdfunding as having an issue with their mental health

Not sure where the immoral part comes in here? Unless you classify most people buying games on kickstarter as having an addiction which is exploited (which is maybe not entirely unfounded), then the answer is rather simple: Don't buy games you don't need.

Honestly, extremely high prices and increased delivery times alone is harming board game crowdfunding. The payment of money for the right to follow a not yet started project and maybe get some extra is ridiculous and just the cherry on top.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

The amount of campaigns I can feesably back has dropped massively due to VAT and shipping. At this point I try to wait until retail which sucks because I would love to support more campaigns

This issue in the community is 100% new to me. Having said that, I'm going to take LaunchBoom's side on this one. They're not doing anything wrong. I just fundamentally disagree with the premise, arguments, and conclusions being made against this method of customer acquisition. It's fine in this situation because up until this point, LaunchBoom and their partners are doing things the correct way. Also, and respectfully, I'm going to disagree with your revisionist history definition of the word "clickbait". Clickbait is about deception, always has been.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Haha I appreciate the cheeky banter about my clickbait definition, I should clarify that that’s not my personal concoction and is instead the technical definition of clickbait and equally well documented (ie in ‘The KZread Formula’ by Derrel Eeves) however it ties in with what you’ve said about Launchboom and their approach to the preorder. The technical term of clickbait can lead to it being ethically used, unfortunately though we’ve seen a gargantuan tsunami of it being misused leading to mistrust around it and so the negative representation of the practice is now more prevalent and known that the ethical if that makes sense. But always appreciate the conversation 😄

Darn. Not the video I was expecting. It felt a little apologetic towards marketing companies, and it's not cool to hear someone say that what I believe is "naive"

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

I’m sorry that that’s what you felt I was saying and equally that you felt you were being belittled (if that’s the right way to interpret it) in what I said. That wasn’t the intention even though I stand by the point I was trying to make.

I think having alternate voices in the mix is always a good thing, and particularly in this case where the voices for the tactic are those who stand to benefit from it, I think it's good to have a voice in the mix that isn't financially motivated. That said, of course I disagree with everything else you said. Just kidding. In actuality, I think you presented things great and overall I agree with lots of what you said....but I also do genuinely believe (as you seem to as well in the last 5 minutes) that this is a new line in the sand compared to any other marketing currently out there. You're prepaying for the oppurtunity to prepay. I don't believe that's ever been done before, I believe it is a new low, and if it's a new low....we have to decide if we're ok with moving the goalposts, or pushing back. For me...I'm pushing back. Thanks for the video!!

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Thanks Alex! I think for me the crux is that as a marketing tool I can see the value in the practice and I don’t think it’s wrong, I just don’t think it needs to be used in crowdfunding due to the nature of what crowdfunding is because as you say, it turns into a prepay of a prepay.

Thank you for your inside and opinion! I wonder would this technique would work, if the dollar would be used to donate to social NGOs and you would not gain any Game expansion?

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

I’m afraid that could be perceived as worse. If we already perceive the practice as manipulation, then saying that the dollar would be donated to charity would be even clearer manipulation as our refusal to give the dollar then is perceived as a refusal to support charity.

@VaultBoy13

3 ай бұрын

@@shouldyoubackit Creators are already using the line that the $1 transaction will allow them to be more green with their production under the guise that the $1 transactions allow them to gage how many copies to produce. It's present on multiple LaunchBoom funnel pages. It's too formulaic for it to be coming from the creators. I don't know how anyone would believe that spin. Clearly, the number of backers on crowdfunding will more clearly determine the number of copies to produce. Additionally, the publisher is going to produce excess copies for retail. They want to be making money steadily through retail (if they can). Limiting their production to be green is a lie. It's just more manipulative marketing cooked up by LaunchBoom.

@samhugo5870

3 ай бұрын

@@shouldyoubackit Hhm I wonder if that would be the Case?? I don’t know anything about how often this comes up, when you are living in the States or Northern Ireland. Here in Germany, I got asked on every PayPall transaction, if I would increase my amount of payment one €uro, so this €uro could be donated to some sort of charity organization…

@iansutton7416

3 ай бұрын

@@samhugo5870 That's another very interesting side discussion, about how commercial, marketing driven and manipulative many mainstream charities have become. Is the means worth the end? That's a really tough question. I am however thankful that we eventually banned lurching 'chuggers' in the UK, greeting strangers in the street like long lost friends, as a way to get a foot in the door to seek direct debit regular payments to the charity. It really was intrusive, and for me very much crossed the line of morality.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Agreed but then that goes back to the point Alex made where creators are giving BS reasons for using it which this sounds like too. If a creator said ‘hey doing this gives us data that helps refine our advertising to increase the likelihood of funding/ producing more revenue’ I’d at least credit them with being honest

Really well measured and honest assessment. Your position resonates better with me than Alex or Chris' assessments and critiques. This manipulation isn't new, rather the iteration is new to this space. And most of us still have a choice.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

I really resonated with a lot of Alex’s points, and the fact he took time to talk to people in the industry about is super helpful (this was what he chatted about in his second video). We always have a choice but in the face of tactics or techniques like this some of us have an easier time of fully realising our choice. The key thing for us to continue to do as consumers in this hobby is to continue sparking these conversations and speaking up when we feel lines are crossed. It’s healthy to hold one another and the creators accountable in a constructive way, and in the long run it’ll help our hobby and the industry I think.

Thank you for the video. While I do disagree with most of this it is nice to hear an alternate viewpoint to such a polarizing issue.

@shouldyoubackit

3 ай бұрын

Thank you! I appreciate that!