I honestly think the old Knuckles sprites would've fit him better, as they made him more intimidating. Then again, the ones used in the final game are still pretty solid

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Yeah he does look super intimidating in the prototype lol

@BioCybergoth

5 күн бұрын

@@pojr that face is pure nightmare fuel though

@near5148

5 күн бұрын

​@pojr this feels like the research needs more work in my opinion

Egg Robo is clearly not Dr.Eggman “wearing a metal hat to keep knuckles from knowing it’s him”, Egg Robo is clearly a rogue robot that thinks it’s Dr.Eggman seen in Sky Sanctuary being released by the death egg.

Eggman doesn’t wear a metal head, it’s a rogue Egg Robo, we know this because it literally gets destroyed in sky sanctuary by Mecha Sonic MKII.

@jdh9419

2 күн бұрын

wdym rogue? It's still going to Robotnik's wishes, which was to obtain the Master Emerald. So technically, it didn't go rogue

@litavbarer-kahana5509

20 сағат бұрын

@@jdh9419it did. It did everything under the command of Mecha Sonic MK. II.

@jdh9419

12 сағат бұрын

@@litavbarer-kahana5509 Wasn't Mecha Sonic MK.II under the command of Robotnik?

4:51 it's not a disguise, it's an eggrobo that survived the fall from Sky Sanctuary

@metallicmadman7182

7 күн бұрын

Ik like, has this person ever seen sonic 3 & knuckles?

@HedgeRobo

7 күн бұрын

tbh the idea is funny though lol

@HKG4

7 күн бұрын

Honestly I like the disguise idea better, definitely feels like a Robotnik sorta thing to do

@whact

7 күн бұрын

@@HKG4 what would be the point of it though

@Qwertyexists

6 күн бұрын

I thought the egg robo was sent by Robotnik, it doesn't look beat or damaged in any way so how would it be damaged, ik Undyne has this issue but like idk

I don't think Knuckles is fighting Robotnik in a hat, that's a different character, a rogue Eggrobo. Knuckles storyline takes place after the Sonic and Tails storyline. When you start a Knuckles game in Sonic and Knuckles you get a cutscene, this scene never plays when you lock-on Sonic 3. When you play as Knuckles there's a few differences to hint that it takes place later. In Launch Base there's no death egg in the background since it launched during Sonic's game. In Sandopolis Act 2 the ghosts are already free since Sonic released them. People suspect the original plan was for Knuckles to skip Flying Battery, and that was a last-minute change to make the game a bit longer for Knuckles. Which is why there's no Knuckles-only routes and you fight Robotnik instead of Eggrobo.

@Bloxed

7 күн бұрын

When you beat Sonic3K with only chaos emeralds, no supers, and beat Doomsday with Super Sonic, you see a cutscene post-credits where an eggrobo wakes up from rubble, definitely the robo who Knuckles fights.

@pawcanada

7 күн бұрын

I've also heard it said because Eggman/Robotnik uses a different sprite in this fight, that may have been why that one wasn't updated. I imagine there was a "If Knuckles is in this level, replace Eggman Boss Sprite 1 with Eggrobo Boss Sprite 1" in the code, or something like that, and because it's different (say "Eggman Boss Sprite 2") it gets overlooked. If this was a rushed addition to Knuckles' route, it makes sense it might have been overlooked or found too late to update it.

@thomased22legoyodagaming

7 күн бұрын

This is true.

@ghostfire3315

7 күн бұрын

@@pawcanada Yup. That's pretty much the case.

@MalzraAirwynn

7 күн бұрын

I like to think Robotnik went back to flying battery after losing to Sonic in Doomsday Zone and Knuckles just happens to come by to beat him up a bit before going after egg robo again.

actually, it's not robotnik in disguise. it's literally a badnik that went rogue and thinks its robotnik now. This is basic knowledge. how did you not know?

@dittoplayz3183

7 күн бұрын

ik

@SneakyGreninja

5 күн бұрын

exactly

@random_an0n

4 күн бұрын

stopped the video right there and thumbed down lol

@Dr.W.Krueger

4 күн бұрын

Judging from his other videos, he gets a lot of things wrong

@wolfdotzip4053

4 күн бұрын

i thought it was just a robo mecha sonic used not that it was acting on its own thinking it's robotnic

3:38 - And there’s “Sonic 2” sprites…! * zooms in to clearly “Sonic 3” sprites *

@jdh9419

2 күн бұрын

Yes

@janitoalevic

20 сағат бұрын

Lol

7:28 Sonic and Tails' sprites are from Sonic 2 due to Sonic 3 being built off of Sonic 2, and Sonic 2 is also built off of Sonic 1 So basically Sonic 2 and 3 are basically just all rom hacks of Sonic 1 Edit: Also, in Sonic 2's Nick Arcade and Simon Wai betas, it uses Sonic 1 sprites with S2's color pallete (excluding new sprites like the walking sprites) and the level select screen is still styled like Sonic 1's and it still has the Sonic 1 zone names and music There's also a broken version of Green Hill Zone too

@jackstar.official79

7 күн бұрын

That actually makes sense

@ebubeajah

3 күн бұрын

And the engine of Sonic 1 is 'Retro Engine'

@draeth_place

2 күн бұрын

@@ebubeajah actually retro engine is used in the mobile remakes, mania, and origins, sonic 1 on the genesis does not use retro engine.

@ebubeajah

2 күн бұрын

@@draeth_place What engine did it use

@pizza-pi

Күн бұрын

@@ebubeajah Its own custom built.

I hope more prototypes reach the light of day that are very different from the final release of a game.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Very true. I'm sure there's more out there

@DubiousDepthsRadio

7 күн бұрын

​@@pojrcan you please do a video about sonic cd

@Artistjames2330

3 күн бұрын

@@pojr the robot thinks its robotnik not robotnik himself so i do not know how you got that wrong

That's not the Doctor in disguise, that's an Eggrobo, an "elite" Badnik made in Eggman's image that are fought in Sky Sanctuary Zone. Worth noting is that in Sonic Mania, a group of them become the Hardboiled Heavies.

This was honestly one of the worst researched Sonic videos I've seen in a long time. We've known for a VERY long time that Flying Battery was supposed to take place between Carnival Night and Ice Cap, as Flying Battery was one of the only levels that had leftovers in the original Sonic 3, and it was even listed on the McDonalds kids meal bag. Egg Robo didn't appear for the boss because they only wrote the code to replace the left and right sprites, but didn't make a front facing sprite. Also, the PC music was not changed for copyright issues. MJ's tracks used sampled audio that the PC's MIDI format couldn't reproduce, so they used the beta music. EDIT: corrected Casinopolis to Carnival Night

@MadWinter889

7 күн бұрын

I enjoyed the video, but yeah, to hardcore Sonic fans, none of these are "secrets".

@The_Metal_Mechanic

7 күн бұрын

@@MadWinter889 Yeah, and considering as I've been obsessed with Sonic Beta content since about 2003, it probably isn't fair to compare what I know vs the content in the video. The video itself wasn't unenjoyable, although I don't understand why it had to be mentioned so many times that we had betas for Sonic 2 but all we had for Sonic 3 was screenshots in magazines. Honestly, The Sunshine Feeler, Chaomix, and obviously Cybershell are some great creators that go more in depth with their research and coverage.

@ChibiKami

6 күн бұрын

in the case of Ice Cap the problem wasn't MJ's music so much as Brad Buxer's. The stage theme was basically the instrumental to his old band The Jetzons' song Hard Times

@Tarquin23

6 күн бұрын

4:00 a prototype of the game was found in 2019 and is readily available for download and play 😶‍🌫️

@The_Metal_Mechanic

6 күн бұрын

@@Tarquin23 Correct, so why does a video from 5 years later feel like it had less research put into it than a middle school book report?

By "recently", you mean between 4 and 5 years ago. And that "20 year-old" secret is nearing 30 years old now.

@aldristatsu

4 күн бұрын

I was going to say... I swear Cutting Room Floor website's content about Sonic games was definitely a thing I read about, and there definitely were prototypes out about Sonic 3 and such, thus why we have what we have in knowledge today about the topic, right?

@Kokomadeta

Күн бұрын

I had a Sonic 3 prototype rom from The Hidden Palace over a decade ago. I think I got it around 2008.

I know this the fact that it was originally going to first introduce the drop sash, but was scrapped till Sonic Mania. I’m not sure why did it change

@VXA1PSTART

7 күн бұрын

When I played the Prototype for the first time, it(the dropdash) was kinda bugged. Idk if that's just me using it at the wrong place, but if this is the case, then it was understandable to cut it from the game.

@Danyplaysboblox

7 күн бұрын

@@VXA1PSTART I remember when trying it out, sometimes, you can be stuck in the drop dash state if you done the wrong & glitching timing

@VXA1PSTART

7 күн бұрын

​@Danyplaysboblox then that's maybe the most plausible theory of why it was cut.

@Danyplaysboblox

7 күн бұрын

@@VXA1PSTART I remember I fricking drowned cuz if this

@_memoryleak_

7 күн бұрын

i’m pretty sure that was unintentional, or at least an overlooked bug caused by something else. it was confirmed that mania did not take inspiration from the s3 “drop dash”, and even then it wouldn’t be plausible since the prototype surfaced around 2020

that one gif of sonic snowboarding makes me so nostalgic. seeing it on all the sonic fan sites in the early 2000s- it's so neat

To correct you about one detail, the game wasn't split because of time constraint. It was McDonalds because they wanted to merchandise their toys on a specific time and SEGA's hands were forced just so they could fulfill their deal with McDonalds and released Sonic and Knuckles afterwards.

@melvinpretlow7921

7 күн бұрын

That’s literally a time constraint lol

@andychamplin

7 күн бұрын

@@melvinpretlow7921 That's entirely different from what we think of a time restraint. This wasn't SEGA trying to make a deadline. McDonalds got greedy so they demanded SEGA to release the game. There has been other theorize that the cartridge size was too small which was debunked pretty quickly.

@melvinpretlow7921

7 күн бұрын

@@andychamplin hard disagree there. It was literally Sega trying to make a deadline. They signed a deal with McDonald’s months, maybe a year in advance to promote the game through happy meals. Sega fell behind in development and rather than pay the cancellation penalty, Sega cut the game in two to meet contractual obligations

@andychamplin

7 күн бұрын

@@melvinpretlow7921 The fact that Sonic 3 started out as a 3D game first is where this all began and had they completed the SVP Chip by February of 1994 they would not have been forced to scrap the idea and start Sonic 3 as a 2D side scroller. They should have dropped the their promotion with McDonalds when they scrapped the game. SEGA was literally in way over their head with this development.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

You're definitely correct about the McDonald's things. I simplified it and just said time constraints.

I remember during the reveal stream when drx suddenly did the Drop Dash. Chat freaking flipped its collective lid. To think a mechanic everyone thought to be a fairly new addition existed _twenty five years_ before Sonic Mania was absolutely mind-blowing.

@gnoLeDwerdnA

6 күн бұрын

A glitchy move existed in a prototype that was lost for over 25 years that doesn’t make the drop dash in Mania not a new mechanic especially when there is absolutely zero evidence to even remotely suggest it’s inspired by it.

@Linker2A03

6 күн бұрын

⁠@@gnoLeDwerdnA Both of your views can be supported. To support your side, Christian Whitehead responded when asked about the similarities to the Drop Dash with “uncanny coincidence 👽“. In support of @MisterVercetti , the base idea, or concept of the same manoeuvre still existed enough to be intentionally implemented in the game’s code (though not retained in Sonic 3’s final release) as a natural progression of/addition to Sonic’s abilities. While not at all inspired by the Sonic 3 prototype, the Drop Dash is from someone coincidentally thinking the same way about Sonic’s move set, that this manoeuvre is a natural progression and addition to Sonic gameplay. If the Drop Dash hadn’t appeared first in Sonic Mania, then I believe some developer would’ve eventually implemented the same idea anyway in a later Sonic game.

@pizza-pi

Күн бұрын

@@Linker2A03 A version of it did exist, it was Hyper Sonic's air dash.

Wait, Robotnik used a metal hat to prevent Knuckles from seeing him? That's... ONE way to interpret the rogue Egg Robo I guess...

Since the prototype was released several years ago, it's so strange to hear you talk about the game for several minutes as if this prototype didn't exist.

4:51 Apparently EggRobo sprites did exist in the files specifically for this battle, just it wasn't coded correctly to appear instead of Eggman's. EggRobo does appear in the zone just before the vertical section leading to the battle. The video where I got this from: Sonic 3 & Knuckles - The Eggrobo Sprite Conundrum by Silver Sonic 1992 I didn't directly link the video because the comment could get deleted, and I don't want to risk being temporarily banned from commenting again. Yes, this is what commenting on KZread is like now.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

I don't mind you linking it. I don't recall banning you, unless it's some automatic KZread thing. Yeah it's interesting that robo was correctly put in at the beginning boss area, but not the last.

@harrybest2041

7 күн бұрын

@@pojr It wasn't you at all! The comment deletions and ban I'm referring to were all probably automated, and certainly didn't occur due to comments on this channel. My comments still get hidden occasionally for unknown reasons. That 24-hour ban was for 'spam, deceptive practices and scams' and happened in November, if you're wondering. I think a Rickroll (KZread link) triggered the first warning, but I have no idea what triggered the ban because I never got shown the offending comments with either of them.

Nice video, and happy 20.7k! However, a few things. 1. The red spheres seen at 3:30 are a test of the 3D tech that this game was capable of (and the genesis in general.) 2. Time constraints as in a deal they had made with Mc donalds. That and the fact at the time 4mb would've left a more expensive sonic 3 (plus having 2 games is more profitable than one, say one $70 game vs 2 $60 ones.) was the real deciding factor. 3. Sonic 3 has 7 zones. And the level select oddities are because that was the ORIGONAL order. Sonic 3 complete also includes an option for playing with this order. The board in Ice cap zone was originally supposed to be the door you would kick off at the end of flying battery. 4. Michael jackson didn't leave, he was kicked out due to controversy. I think...? 5. I know this is a personal thing, but the PC rendition of Ice cap's music was just a crime to music compared to Ice cap on the genesis. 6. Physics, especially with slopes and tubes seen in sonic 3, is one of the biggest nightmares about coding. I still remember coding ICT4's physics, probably my least favorite part about coding ICT4.

@emptyspotlight

3 күн бұрын

4. I heard that Michael Jackson left the project because he wasn't satisfied with the Genesis' sound.

@RoonReplay

Күн бұрын

I actually thought it was of his skin disease.

Several things to point out: 1. All of this have been discussed already since 2019, way too late talking about all this now 2. Sonic 3 is going on 30 years now actually 3. They had to split the game in two to make McDonald's promotion with the hedgehog 4. Sonic & Knuckles actually ended up with 7 zones, 8 if you count the Hidden Place portion of Lava Reef as a separate zone 5. It was already a well known fact that Flying Battery were supposed to come after Carnival Night 6. You can say that Knuckles share Tails' paths in Flying Battery, but does that technically makes these Knuckles' own paths since Tails is not natively playable on Sonic & Knuckles standalone??? Just a thought 7. Robotnik wears a metal helmet for disguise??? No, this is another enemy called Egg Robo, who have survived Sonic's run and then went on to replace the actual Robotnik as boss, since Knuckles' run takes place after Sonic's 8. Those tracks and a few others were composed by Brad Buxer actually, who collaborated with Michael Jackson on some of them, the latter left the development reporting unsatisfaction with the sounds on the game and was subsequently not credited. Its not widely known why these "prototype" tracks were specifically replaced with the final ones, but we know now why the latter could not be used in further rereleases, the very reason why this game was constantly skipped over for many years up until recently

Ice Cap Zone's final music wasn't actually MJ. Instead, it was Brad Buxer, who collaborated with MJ for YEARS. He was originally part of a new wave band called "The Jetzons", and they had a song called "Hard Times"...which you can listen to if you search for it here on YT. You might notice that it is essentially the same song but without a club beat and of course, with lyrics.

I've heard it suggested the music for the PC version may have been changed due to hardware rather than music copyright. Credit to the D-Pad for suggesting this, but PC music of the time would have been in the midi format, and the more "vocal" tracks MJ and his team composed wouldn't translate well to that format. Needing music, Sega brushed off the prototype music and used that instead. Additionally, the MJ tracks were used in later rereleases without issue, at least before MJ's passing.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

This is interesting. I never thought about this. And I always found it strange that the original S3&K music remained in compilations for so long. Why did Sega suddenly worry about using the original music?

@pawcanada

7 күн бұрын

@@pojr As I said, full credit to The D-Pad who mentioned this in their retrospective of the Sonic 3 music scenario. It did come out in 2017, so it predates the prototype but it's still a good watch. As for why, my guess is after Jackson's death his estate maybe kicked up a fuss about music he had made and perhaps came after royalties from Sega. Jackson would collaborate with Sega after Sonic 3, so part of me thinks they were on good terms and maybe had a spoken agreement about the music but nothing in writing, so they continued to release the game until around 2011 without issue. With him gone, the estate became a possible problem for Sega. I've also heard Brad Buxer is actually the one who's caused a lot of legal headaches as he claims a lot of the music was his work and not MJ's. Famously, an unreleased 80s song from Brad's old band The Jetzons called "Hard Times" was reused for Ice Cap Zone. The instrementals of that song is near identical, if not fully reused. There was even a vinyl release of that song a few years ago that had Ice Cap artwork on the record sleeve, leading me to wonder if they sorted something out, but with the release of Origins I guess not. Blaze Hedgehog did two videos about "The Definitive Way to Play Sonic 3" around when the protype released, with the second one discussing the music which I also recommend.

@The_Metal_Mechanic

6 күн бұрын

MJ's estate is also why his episode of The Simpsons isn't on Disney+

4:56 no that's egg robo

Drop Dashing was originally going to be in Sonic 3, but it got scrapped and the concept wouldn't be realized until Sonic Mania

This video was researched very badly: 1) We knew long ago about the oddity of Flying Battery that doesn't have any Knux specific paths; 2) When you said that Eggman wears a metal cap when he fights Knux so he doesn't reconize him, it's totally wrong. It a survived Eggrobo from Sky Sanctuary Fall; 3) Sonic 3 was splitted because of the deadline of their McDonalds advertisement; 4) The prototype shows us that it was compiled before MJ got into development: just go to the Wiki page of Sonic 3 and read the section of MJ into development;

I am pretty sure Eggrobo wasn't Dr. Robotnik in disguise because Eggrobo was the second pilot in the Great Eggman Robo, and you can see it in its right eye.

4:55 actually that's not Robotnik, that's one of his Robo Robotniks, Knuckles' story is post game, technically a sequel to Sonic and Tails' story of 3&K. Unless Mecha Sonic just straight up kills Eggman by the end of the story lmao, because he spin dashes into it, and it explodes in a blaze of glory. Sonic 4, Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, 06 so on and so forth etc... ssss sorry folks that isn't Eggman, he died back in 3&K Knuckles story mode lol. This whole time we've dealt with an imposter. Joking aside that makes his boss fight in Flying Battery even stranger, Robotnik shouldn't be around at all, he's off on his next scheme.

20 years later? I think you mean 30. 😂 Boy I'm getting old.

@TinWhisker

6 күн бұрын

Ah, just replied similar, 'more than 20' is technically correct! Release is 29 currently - I wonder what Sega will do for the 30th anniversary this year.

Knuckle's Story is set AFTER Sonic's Adventure in Angel Island.

"More than 20 years later" - well I mean the prototype is more than 30 at this point, but kudos for not making me feel too old! 😹

I also believe (while unsure if it qualifies as prototype or not) Flying Battery was planned for before Ice Cap. I'm sure that's a huge reason we haven't seen prototypes, because 3 was meant to be 1 game, but they had to split into 2, Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. We have also gotten samples of proto type music before for some stages such as Ice Cap and Carnival Night (which is what would later go on to replace the songs we know in Sonic Origins, because of that Michael Jackson problem... which are sadly inferior versions to the ones we know and love, but it's fair that was his family's decision). It's probably that either 3 was for the most part already planned out, or there are just multiple proto types, because of the development process of 3 vs 1, 2, and CD, especially 2 and CD since it the teams were different. Also on the note of demos yes and well... some demos are sadly better than the final product, aka a Sonic 06 situation lol. The alpha demos, I hear tales of them (since I don't go to conventions and would've been too young then anyways lol... 06 hmmm... early teens right) being the promised one, the ultimate Sonic game, beautiful beyond comparison... then sometime between that and demo 2 it's like they backtracked to a beta, then for final release the alpha product. 5:35, while not wrong those versions as I said are known as prototype versions of those songs. Which I believe I heard somewhere they went back to using them because of the Michael Jackson problems, and hence his non inclusion in the S&K songs. Meanwhile upon the Michael Jackson Allegations then combining the cartridges also gets rid of certain songs, such as mini boss fights, boss fights, Knuckles' theme and a few others, but they kept the stage songs, ice cap, launch base, etc. Why the PC version did utilize the proto songs, and thus Origins would go on to do the same, and why it took so long for us to get rereleases of Sonic 3 at all.

Pro tip: Put the subscriber mention at the END of the video. It helps smooth out presentation and keep viewer retention

4:23 Given that concept art shows that Flying Battery was indeed supposed to be in-between Carnival Night and Ice Cap, It's not so much of a theory as it is a fact. Furthermore, the Special Stages for Sonic 3 actually reference the original zone order. Each Special Stage corresponds to the colors of each zone in sequence: The brown/orange of Angel Island, the teal/turquoise stone of Hydro City, the orange/cream blocks of Marble Garden, the red/white of Carnival Night, the orange/purple of Flying Battery, the blue/light blue of Ice Cap, and the yellow/purple of Launch Base. The fifth Special Stage is the only outlier in the sequence, since Flying Battery was moved to Sonic & Knuckles. In case you were wondering, the Sonic & Knuckles Special Stages don't really match up with the zones aside from the first one, which matches the green/light green of Mushroom Hill 4:50 That's not a disguise, that's Egg Robo, an enemy character who appears in Sky Sanctuary Zone. Knuckles' story is supposed to take place after the main Sonic 3 & Knuckles story, where Eggman has been defeated for now and all that's left to cause trouble is this one henchbot and Mecha Sonic Mk.II. Eggman's graphics for Flying Batter Zone's boss not being change was likely an oversight. The fight uses unique graphics for Eggman not seen in other fights, unique graphics that they simply never made for Egg Robo. The Sonic Origins version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles fixed this, among other graphical oddities or mistakes 5:19 This is technically true. Brad Buxer is actually the one who composed these tracks, alongside others such as the Knuckles encounter music and the Competition menu music. This can best be seen with the music for Ice Cap, which is very similar to the track Hard Times, an unreleased track made by The Jezons, Brad Buxer's band. While he did work with Michael Jackson a lot, Michael Jackson never composed any music for the game himself, and likely wasn't even involved

@antiseize11

2 күн бұрын

And because of that association with MJ caused Sonic 3 & Knuckles to be skipped over of rereleases for many years until now

Fun fact, the special stages' palettes are meant to mimic the respective stage order; if you look at the 5th special stage, it's colors still mimic Flying Battery's color scheme in the final game, alluding to it's original position.

Pretty good video, but Knuckles' bosses are supposed to be an Eggrobo gone awry, not just Eggman in disguise. Besides that one little error, this video was fairly entertaining and informative.

Actually if you play Sonic & Knuckles alone there are areas in Flying Battery Zone that only Knuckles can reach since Tails isn't in the game.

4:57 I don't think this is accurate? I believe it's just an Eggrobo that Robotnik deployed to take care of Knuckles. In Sky Sanctuary zone at the end of Knuckles campaign, Mecha Sonic completely destroys that Eggrobo. Also doesn't it take place after Sonic's campaign? So Knuckles already knows.

i need to correct you on one point: Knuckles never fights Robotnik at all in his story. thats not Robotnik wearing a metal mask. thats one of his Egg-robo's trained to pilot his vehicles

This video got me to say “No Shit” a lot because of how bad the research is 😂

Something I remember hearing at some point was that apparently SEGA was impressed by the visuals in Donkey Kong Country, and wanted to somewhat replicate the 3D aesthetic in Sonic 3 leading to the character sprites we get in the final game. If true, it's possible that the prototype designs pre-date this creative decision which in turn means that Knuckles' sprites in particular might be closer to what he would have looked like in the Sonic 1 and 2 artstyles had he been originally designed for one of those games instead. The primary difference would probably be the shading like with Sonic's sprites, and in Sonic 1 he might have also been a pixel shorter like with Sonic as well. Also, it's not Eggman wearing a metal cap in Knuckles' playthrough. It's an Eggrobo, one of the badniks Eggman made which are normally only seen in Sky Sanctuary Zone. My guess as to why the boss sprite in Flying Battery wasn't replaced is because it uses a different Eggman sprite than all the other bosses, resulting in it being an oversight. There's probably a check to see which player character the player is using before a boss fight starts, and if Knuckles is detected the Eggrobo sprite is loaded instead as a replacement in addition to loading the more difficult boss behaviors, but since that specific boss uses a different sprite the trigger to replace the normal Eggman sprite doesn't work. The devs probably forgot that they used a separate Eggman sprite in Flying Battery, and so never coded in a proper replacement flag to use the Eggrobo boss sprite instead.

Happy for you on 20k POJR! Congrats man.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Thank you so much!

This is more like a beta than a prototype, it was dated as late as November 1993, only three months before the game was already on store shelves. The fact that it transformed so drastically from this unfinished mess into the completed product we know in only a couple months shows how arduous and extensive its crunch development was in the final stretch.

When you complete Sonic 3 & Knuckles as Sonic, a post credits scene has a lone Egg Robo emerge from a pile of its fallen comrades. In Knuckles's game, an Egg Robo that survived is in place of Robotnik. I have always assumed that Knuckles's game is taking place after Sonic and Tails recovered the Master Emerald from Robotnik and destroyed the Death Egg for good. That's probably why Sky Sanctuary is the last stage, and not much of a stage, since the majority of it collapsed after Sonic had defeated Metal Sonic Mk II.

Recently? How recently? I had a Sonic 3 prototype rom from The Hidden Palace over fifteen years ago.

It's so weird how these games started out just random as kids, then we grew up and noticed the environmental storytelling, the way it actually makes sense that you're moving through these areas in this order, and then.. we start wondering what the real 'canon' order is since we can see the clear revisions... anyway just to point this out as I always do, MJ didn't write the music. He didn't write music, he performed it. _The people who wrote his music_ wrote songs for this game, including Brad Buxer. And they never got paid, which is the reason those songs can't ever be used. Sega will not shell out the cash.

Let it be known, I was able to discover those beta elements where Sonic is on a surfboard, those blue artifacts, and the red spheres in the first act in the release game. I did this by using combining the 2 carts as a kid, and then using the debug mode in a weird way by skipping the intro section of Angel Island and moving my character all the way to the right, then quickly moving back before the cutscene ends while cycling through objects. By placing those objects continously (which I just did as a kid for whatever reason) eventually it can reveal that 3 of the objects are the 3 screenshots that we see around the 3 minute mark of your video. They are also animated, and Sonic on the surfboard is animated as well. i was only ever able to do this on the original console with the cartridge, but I do think it's possible with any rom. Just felt like sharing, if anyone wants to go digging for beta elements in the final product, which i never saw those sprites again until the 1993 prototype was released , basically just a secret for me and my brother for 15-20 years. Never understood what was happening as a kid, so cool to see those animations were actually unused cutscene data in a way

It could be entirely possible that the PC Music aka Prototype original music were placeholders being used thematically until Jackon's compositions were finished. One of the most persistent suggestions as to why Jackson left the project was that he did not like the way the music sounded on Genesis hardware and asked to be left uncredited, so all future releases went back to the placeholder music?

Whether those alternative songs were meant for the game all along during development or replacements after the game's retail release, Sega definitely made the right decision by adding those funky, upbeat Michael Jackson songs to the game because it gave it so much more of a contemporary feel, attitude and energy that fit perfectly with the craziness in each one of those zones they were in. Carnival Night sounds generic and goofy, Ice Cap Zones sounds like bonus stage music, and Launch Base Act 1 sounds so uninspired like it doesn't even fit the game at all or was meant for an RPG. My feelings on this go way, way back to the 90's when I first bought Sonic & Knuckles for Windows 95 and once I sensed that contrivance with the music I lost all interest to play the game and wanted a refund from Electronics Boutique but I lost the dang receipt so they wouldn't honor it and was stuck with it. Regardless I'm glad the prototype has been discovered for history and preservation's sake.

4:57 hold on i thought it was just an eggrobo fighting knuckles since knuckles story is after sonic 3 and knuckles main story

I am glad to see this channel growing.

4:51 YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT WAS EGGMAN????? MY WHOLE LIFE I THOUGHT THAT WAS JUST SOME "ROGUE BADNICK" THAT HATED KNUCKLES BUT I NEVER THAT IS WOULD BE EGGMAN

@5h3i1ah_and_Nik0

7 күн бұрын

{it's not eggman. it's an eggrobo, from sky sanctuary. the video is wrong, and fairly poorly researched overall.}

@red-shroom1004

7 күн бұрын

@@5h3i1ah_and_Nik0 ohh that makes more sense

Quick note on the Robotnik Knuckles fights in his stages - he is actually fighting one of the egg robos that Sonic fought in Sky Sanctuary zone. No Robotnik in a mask. If you beat the Sonic playthrough with all the chaos emeralds you will see sonic return the mega emerald to knuckles and the floating island will actually start hovering above the sea, there is also an end credits scene where one egg robo comes out of some wreckage - that egg robo is who is menacing Knuckles. In the knuckles game the death egg is nowhere to be seen in lava reef zone or hidden palace (because it lifted off during the sonic play through) and when you fight the final boss you can see the floating island hovering in the background. Also metal Sonic straight up “unalives” the egg robo who was fighting knuckles. So yeah flying battery just had a continuity error with knuckles fighting Robotnik proper.

This video could have been made 4 years ago.

@antiseize11

2 күн бұрын

Essentially, sooo late

Congrats on 20k Subscribers

copyright issues and the fact that the changes were made after the allegations against MJ became public knowledge

Knuckles kinda exists as a playable character in this prototype, but appears more as a glitchy Tails. Sorta like an opposite version of Chaotix's Wechidna .

The old knuckles sprite looks pretty good but since we grew up with the knuckles sprite we have now I feel like his future models would look a little stranger and honestly I prefer this knuckles instead of the scrapped one

"Wearing a metal hat/head so knuckles knows it isnt him" ............. lmfao.

what theme did you use for your outro?

I think the prototype music sounds better than we usually give it credit.

@Sonictheoofhog4

7 күн бұрын

People are usually taking about the Origins remixes of the prototype songs, not the songs from the actual prototype.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

100% true. I prefer Carnival Night's prototype music over the final.

@dittoplayz3183

7 күн бұрын

@@pojr you said that robotnik wears a metal hat to disguise himself from knuckles knowing it's him, but knuckles' story takes place after eggman has been defeated and has left angel island, beginning with a bomb dropping on his head, and seeing a rogue eggrobo, using eggman's machines. Knuckles' campaign's main threat is the eggrobo, but switches to mecha sonic for the final boss. it is NOT eggman in disguise.

@gnoLeDwerdnA

6 күн бұрын

The vast majority of people who have heard it have said the same in comparison to the PC and Origins versions of these tracks so they did indeed get a tome of credit

@Linker2A03

6 күн бұрын

⁠@@Sonictheoofhog4 After people doing a ton of research, it’s accepted that the replacement music themes in Sonic Origins’ Sonic 3 & Knuckles (with the obvious exception of the new Super theme by Jun Senoue) are more than likely from an earlier prototype than the 1103 prototype obtained by drx. The fact that the themes for Ice Cap Act 2, Competition Mode, the [formerly] unused song, and the Staff Roll theme that was repurposed all sound nearly indistinguishable from the 1103 prototype is evidence of this. But if you need more evidence, a person discovered some peculiar instructions in the code for Carnival Night Act 1’s theme in the 1103 prototype, that the header was set to intentionally play 3 semitones higher from the key of C Major that the PC and Origins versions normally played, likely a revision of the theme. There’s much more to support the music being from an earlier time throughout development, but my comment is a lot already😅.

4:59 no, that’s egg robo

Congrats on 20k. Next stop 50k

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Thank you so much!

To be honest, when I first watched this, I thought it was from an outdated video, until I checked (because of how much people we're talking about sonic lost media)

I thought the eggrobo was just a eggrobo, not eggman in a metal hat

4:51 sorry gotta go nerd mode here but it’s actually an egg robo As robotnik was already dealt with in Sonic’s story

Pojr, it'd be nice if you recorded your gameplay footage in 60fps, so that things like the GHZ ball show the unseen in this video checkerboard pattern

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

I do record in 60 FPS today, but the Sonic 1 Proto footage was from years ago when I only recorded in 30 FPS.

i think you’re about 5 years late buddy

Congrats on 20K. You reached it with super sonic speed!

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Thank you! Lol indeed, maybe not in this prototype since there are no chaos emeralds though lol.

Surely there's got to be a decompilation project for Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Seems to be one for all of these more complex N64 games, so why not a Genesis game.

5:02 wrong It's not eggman disguised Its a egg robo Flying battery boss os glitched and show the wrong boss sprite Egg robo only appears when you die during the fight

Thanks for the cool video pojr!

Wow-Pojr’s really on a Sonic spree lately! And congratulations on 20,000 subscribers!

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

Thank you! And yeah I do like the older Sonic games

Sonic 2 was actually meant to be a much bigger game than what we got. it was going to have time travel like in CD, far more levels, an eighth emerald, different level order, and it was going to be the last game, the end of Sonic's adventures. but, the game was widley successful so no retiring for the blue blur anytime soon and now look where we are.

That's not Robotnik that's Eggrobo, a completely different character

The music for Flying Battery also comes first in the Sonic 3 level select screen. I believe this is also true in Sonic 3C builds and Sonic 3 & Knuckles final, I'm not positive on the lock-on though. It was more than just time constraints though. Japan didn't get Sonic 3 until after 3C was abandoned. They needed a 4MB cartridge, Sega of Japan didn't produce these for the Megadrive, only the US did

I don't think the PC version using the alternate tracks had anything to do with copyrights, as Sega released Sonic Jam on the Saturn with the same music from the Genesis/Mega Drive retail release (and this was a complete re-coding of those games, so it's not like they were simply running the ROM). I believe different people handled the Windows version, and perhaps they had the prototype material as reference rather than the retail. Some pages indicate the developer was Media Kite, so it's very possible that Sega gave them a prototype (or prototype assets) at the time they began developing the Windows port, . Also, since the Windows version used MIDI, it's very possible they opted to use the prototype music because they couldn't do the voice samples in them. Regardless of who developed this game and whether or not they were aware of the retail release's soundtrack, they did decide to make this version's music ENTIRELY MIDI, so whether by accident or design, they would've had trouble using the samples (although it's debatable whether or not they could've just opted to make it some other instrument hit the same note/key).

4:57 Dude, that's all wrong. Robotnik's gone from the story in Knuckles' campaign. Knuckles is fighting a remainder of Egg Robos, which he's attacked by at the start of the campaign, and who are piloting all the boss machines in each zone. The reason why Flying Battery's boss uses a Robotnik sprite is simply because Sonic Team were too lazy (or pressed for time) to draw a new Egg Robo sprite that would face upwards and pivot its glance like Robotnik proper did. So they just reused Robotnik.

congrats on reaching 20k subs...cool video btw, as usual

Congrats on 20k subs!

Kind sir, In the near future, would you be interested on dedicating a video towards the Neo-Geo? It's my favorite units for both the Arcades and Home consoles and would be really interested on what you have to say about it. I did a channel search, but I didn't see anything regarding it.

3:47 😂 Sonic running down the hill in Icecap is easily done in Debug.

you have the music replacement backwards

interesting the magazine articles are from Sonic the Comic and the official Sega magazine from the uk! Regarding the MJ connection, it was also Brad Buxer who had worked on the "new" final tracks. He worked with MJ and the songs that were changed had MJ sounds in them. Also ice cap zone sounds like his band's (The Jetzons) song Hard Times.

Knuckles in S3 never fights Eggman. Thats one of his robots, its not a robot mask. The eggman fight in FB is because its believed FB was already finished but stripped out at the last moment when the game had only sonic and tails in mind. and never was updated like the other maps

Without YOU, I wouldn't be here today. You 100% deserve your success. You make solid videos one after another.

@pojr

7 күн бұрын

I really appreciate that, thank you so much!

3:25 😂 All of that is in the Final game but is only found in Debug mode. The game magazine was taking screenshots of Debug mode.

It was basically a team of musicians who regularly worked with Michael Jackson (and this wasn't a secret). M.J.'s own involvement (largely or entirely over the telephone?) was more than zero, but Sega minimized it then, and they exaggerate it now.

If the internet had been widespread at the time, I bet they would have released the prototype as a beta, then pushed out updates just like they do today.

@Mango05307

7 күн бұрын

The super emeralds would have been paid dlc

I thought the "disguise" was an egg robo in the first place

@scpnoobers

4 күн бұрын

Egg Robo isn’t a disguise he’s a rogue robot that thinks he’s Dr.Eggman. Just clearing things up

@Qwertyexists

4 күн бұрын

@@scpnoobers I know, the disguise thing just messed my brain up a bit.

I came for the intro. Stayed for the topic 😂

Proud to say I was one of the first 20,000 honestly your video style has given me hope, that my channel can be relevant even now so thank you for being a reinspiration for me.

Regardless of how rough a day has been, seeing Pojr crack that trademark smile and talk games makes it all better! Great vid as always, this was an interesting one. As said, Sonic 2 prototypes are a dime a dozen, getting something with Sonic 3 is just awesome. And its about time! But Im sure the scarcity is due to the rushed production time, there just aren't many out there. So, is Sonic and Knuckles the first example of paid DLC? 😂

I wish we're in the timeline where Sonic 3 doesn't use any MJ's instruments. It'll look more different and sound more different.

Ooof....This was a rough watch as a long time Sonic fan....

Awesome thanks 👍 pojr

Nice work Pojr!

Congrats on the 20k subs dude! As soon as you hit the 10k mark, the ball really starts rolling. You could be seeing 50k by Christmas even!

@Pharozos

7 күн бұрын

Hello you. The content is good. I am glad for Pojr.

@scottydu81

7 күн бұрын

Bless you, Larry

In sonic 3 prototype, you frogt the icecap music difference

The prototype Hydrocity background is superior imho. More to look at and it looks a lot like the Lost World in Sonic Adventure.