Lipo safety and storage is so important. It’s crazy more channels don’t stress this more. Looking forward to this series!

@Boogie_the_cat

4 ай бұрын

That's because "safety isn't cool" KZread channels with lots of views get there by showing cheap products in the best light possible. KZread (and TikTok) videos get many views by only showing one side of the story, the good fun side. That's how you get views and make deals with manufacturers. Having experienced a lithium fire myself, I am concerned about safety. The problem is, all other battery types before lithium batteries had a bunch of bs warnings about explosion danger. But if you actually took a blowtorch to those batteries, they would barely burn and never explode. So, when lithium batteries put the same warning on their batteries, everyone ignores it "like the boy who cried wolf" they assume it's just BS put there to cover the manufacturers ass. Most people have no idea how insane a lithium fire is, not just the fire, but all the toxic smoke. The truth is, most products that use lithium batteries don't want the customer to know how dangerous they are, because it would be bad for their public image. I know some people who will squeeze their battery packs if they're not charging right, charge swollen batteries, etc... because they don't believe the warnings.

Interesting series, I've seen quite a few videos on lipo fires, but it's always interesting to really exactly see how explosive they can be:)

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

A friend of mine who helped during filming stated 'this bag is not a protection, it is an inferno generator'. And compared to the burning battery as such (i.e. without any protective case) it was a totally correct observation, as unbelievable as it may sound. Up to that point I wouldn't have believed it myself, but it's fact.

@DerKrawallkeks

6 жыл бұрын

Really?:o Maybe you could tell more about that in the future videos!

This is an excellent video. We are scuba divers and with the recent series of two fatal shipboard fires with suspicions falling on lithium batteries as the cause, this is A very excellent video series! Keep up the good work!!

@HeliGraphix

4 жыл бұрын

Appreciate your sharing the interesting insight Steve! Also hoping that those fires did "only" destroy property (as bad as that already is) and not harm any people

@qedsteve

4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately the labor day fire had 34 fatalities. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception In the Red Sea, there was one fatality, all others escaped into the water. www.divephotoguide.com/underwater-photography-scuba-ocean-news/red-sea-aggressor-sinks-after-fire-killing-one-diver/ This is why these videos are meaningful.

@HeliGraphix

4 жыл бұрын

OMG what an absolutely horrible incident. Thank you for sharing

finally great lipo safe video its the most important thing in fpv

Good work! Keep the videos comin'!🔥

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

Thx Daniel. I have very good video footage of BAT-Safe, ammunition (metal) box and also ZARGES Akku-Safe that will show in detail how well they work. Parts 2 and 3 will come next week and the week after

very interesting! ☢ Thanks you for the video!

And then there’s Brian Phillips with his mountain of lipos on the kitchen counter

Batteries aside- are these bags good as a generic fireproof document holder? eg if you put paper documents into one, then put the bag into a safe, and the house caught fire, would the documents be safe?

@HeliGraphix

4 жыл бұрын

This is a great question. Without having tested it I would say the documents in the bag - as long as they do not come into contact with fire directly - should be protected for quite a while as the bag will insulate them from heat and itself not get ignited by the heat. As with all matters fire, there will be a certain fire resistance rating (typically this would be 30, 60, 90 or 120 min.), meaning that if the safe heats up enough then the heat alone (without fire) will eventually char the documents. Direct fire would likely also burn the documents as one of the shortcomings of the bag is that even when closed there remain holes on the side where the velcro closes, thus fire can reach the documents. *As a summary:* in a fire scenario where a house is on fire for a limited time, and where the documents are in the bag which in turn is in a safe, they will survive (= my guess).

I'd love to see the same test with a genuine Lipo Sack. It uses somewhat different materials than the generic cheap silver vinyl-like bags that were used here.

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

I've just asked around a bit and no-one has ever heard there were different versions of the lipo bag. Could you point me to a potential source? Important is that the bag seals tightly, otherwise there will always be fire jets even if the material was better.

@bluumax

5 жыл бұрын

@@HeliGraphix I think liposack uses a real fire proof material like this stuff kzread.info/dash/bejne/dpaml9WOns_eYrw.html but fire jets would certainly occur with larger batteries.

@SuBros760

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@RandoManFPV

8 ай бұрын

​@@HeliGraphixthere is certainly real fire proof material out there that can resist a lipo fire; however I wouldn't expect it to be as cheap as 10$ like most these lipo bags are. Also you certainly do not want a complete seal or you'll have an explosion. Not sure how one would tackle the problem of either causing a pressure vessel and possible explosion by sealing it, or having fire/heat spew from the vent/leak.

@HeliGraphix

8 ай бұрын

@@RandoManFPV Agree on all points. Actually, the ZARGES battery case (which we tested in part 3 as a prototype) ticks all these boxes - unfortunately including the price tag. This said, someone called the company and got some useful tips from their customer service. The respective thread is I believe in the comments section of part 2 of this series.

Seen lots of tests. Thought i should educate myself since my bag is starting to fill up. They seem to handle small batteries totally fine. My bag/box contains around 10A combined. Might be time to find a different solution.

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

Many of us have followed the same path as you do. My personal belief after having seen several tests is that the bags don't work. They *sometimes* do, but it's not reliable and you don't want to base your safety concept on "it may work". So yes, the sooner you move on to another solution, the better and safer.

Thanks for the video. Seems like I have to find a better solution (which you will hopefully show me in part 2 and 3)

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

Definitely. Actually what you'll see is how alternative solutions behave in detail under the otherwise exact same conditions. Everyone is then free to draw their own conclusions.

I was thinking about getting a lipo battery to upgrade my stryfe and I wanted to buy one of those bags. Not anymore. Thanks, but I will stick to IMRs and AAs

@SuBros760

4 жыл бұрын

Just a shitty bag or poor use for the video

I see you used some nail to provoke LiPo explosion. But what if damage of the bag by nail just made bag weaker to handle the fire?

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

In principle you are right. In reality, it does not affect the outcome of the experiment; I briefly mentioned this in the video. Reason is that the weakness of the bag lies (among others) in not closing tightly, and most of all not being able to withstand the fire jets that a lipo in a thermal runaway condition can "eject". When watching closely you can even see that around the nail things are even surprisingly calm. So in short: the nail did not have any significant impact on the course of this experiment. The bags are a failure and should not be sold as a protective solution for lipo batteries. Simply because they're not and will fool people into non-existent safety.

A bit of a teaser video, eh? At least the other two are already out!

But do they do any difference? I mean, they dont seen to give any protection on their own, but how about combining them with ammocan? Would they help it, or they would just add fuel to the fire?

@HeliGraphix

5 жыл бұрын

It will depend a bit on the size of the battery (thickness of the protective bag is more or less always the same), also on its orientation inside the bag. But honestly in my opinion it just adds fuel to the fire. They shouldn't be promoting these bags as a means for safely storing batteries.

Kinda scary to learn stuff like this. I remember back when i just got started in RC. i actually thought these things would keep me safe from battery fire. They really should not even be allowed to sell these.. Sure they are better than nothing, but not by much. your home will still burn down.

@HeliGraphix

5 жыл бұрын

I always thought the same thing, used those bags for years. After seeing the outcome of a real-life test I, too, am of the opinion they should not be allowed to be sold.

@therandompineapple3805

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeliGraphix personally I use the bags to store them, keep moisture out and prevent something like this from happening and then I store them in an ammo crate

Damn. I have ALL of my lipos in that bag including a 6s 5,000mah, right now.

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

That's exactly the Wh of the battery we used for testing, so what you see in the video is what to expect if one of your lipos goes off. I was in the exact same situation BTW. Right after testing I threw all of my bags into the trash and changed to another storage option as detailed in part 3.

With a 3s battery, I'm guessing the fire would be much smaller? 6s seems a little extreme for the average user of 2s or 3s.

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. Given how fast the bag got penetrated and that it doesn't seal the battery, I still wouldn't use it. Risk is much too high in my opinion, no matter which battery size. The bag is just not suitable.

Great info thanks

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

I had heard before that LiPo guards didn't work in some tests, but somehow I never realized they're useless until I saw it myself. Next week and the week after will show a 1:1 comparison (exact same conditions) to safer alternatives. Thanks for commenting.

@davidturner2365

6 жыл бұрын

Didn’t realise they were that crap thanks again

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

Worse than worse. Don't use them.

@davidturner2365

6 жыл бұрын

No going to get a metal box

What kind of battery or Batteries was that i have NEVER seen a Lipo fire THAT BIG

@HeliGraphix

11 күн бұрын

Actually, just an ordinary power tool battery. The specs are mentioned in the video, in addition there are some really interesting threads with further details here in the comments. It's worth browsing. All the best!

@ocularcavity8412

11 күн бұрын

@@HeliGraphix WOW I guess it is because power tools use LiOn cells instead of LiPo, (usually only see LiPo fires in the RC hobby) I have heard that the reason Ebikes, Ev's (like Tesla) and Power tools Use LiOn is because they have Higher Energy Density per cell but release it Slower but when there is a Fire it must release that energy ALL at once and that increased Density leads to a bigger BLAST of fire

@HeliGraphix

11 күн бұрын

@@ocularcavity8412 Interestingly, this is incomplete information. All of these batteries are Li-Ion. In R/C we tend to use Li-Ion Polymer batteries, but that doesn't make a difference. Instead, the biggest difference is that in R/C most commonly pouch cells are used. In a fire, these tend to give off the energy in all directions whereas "canned" cells such as in EVs, power tools or e-bikes will release the energy in form of fire jets. The latter appear more violent, but when in an enclosure such as a container, bag, etc., the net result is the same, as the stored energy is the same. If anything, on a per cell weight basis, the violence of a fire will be even higher in R/C (lighter cells!). This was BTW also mentioned in the video(s). Please watch them, there is even more information.

@ocularcavity8412

11 күн бұрын

@@HeliGraphixCool thanks that is very interesting there is SO MUCH false or incomplete information out and as just a RC hobbiest (not a battery expert) it is hard to tell how much is true or just commonly considered true but no the whole story, I am glad I was always paranoid and used metal Ammo cans for batteries, I have to do more research on LiPo vs LiOn the fun part will be to decipher the facts from myths

In the second video, you show power tool batteries, in which the cells are encased in a hard plastic shell. Is that the type of battery you used here, or were the cells exposed?

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

Yes, same type of battery. The plastic encasing has little to no influence on the thermal runaway of the cells.

How have you triggered the fire? Looks like you pierced the battery with a nail?

@HeliGraphix

5 жыл бұрын

Yes correct, in some cases we used penetration (= nail) to start it, in others overheating with a small lighter. Both methods will change little to nothing in terms of effect. Especially with the bag it is interesting to see that at the point ofpenetration nothing happens to the bag; instead all the action concentrates on the front and rear end. Likely because of the orientation of the cells.

I just watched like 5 other videos using different box bags with different batteries and they all stopped the fire and damage from spreading. And the bag in this vid is like an envelope style all the others are like a box.

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

There is an equal number of videos where it doesn't stop the fire, "box" or envelope. The closer you get to the specified rating, the higher the likelihood for a catastrophic failure. The thing is - as said in this video: you don't know and cannot predict whether your use case is "safe" or whether in case of battery failure the bag will also not protect you. And in my book this uncertainty alone rules out these bags/boxes as a suitable, safe storage solution.

What if you arranged ordinary cinder blocks, with no mortar, in a way that overlapped each other, but still allowed gasses and smoke to be released, but no shooting parts could get past, and then covered it with a heavy piece of metal or tiles, with cinder blocks on top, and then charged your battery on top of one cinder block in the middle of this cinder block fire box? Please build something like that and set an e-bike battery on fire inside it and do a video. Thanks!

@HeliGraphix

4 ай бұрын

It sounds like this could work well in terms of controlling the spread of fire. Also, it should be scalable to a degree. Battery transportation on the other hand won't be possible. Since the smoke is toxic and tends to stay around for weeks, it would still be advisable to have this steup in a well ventilated or at least "compartmented" area to avoid the spreading as much as possible.

It says my bag is bomb proof ontop of the unusual stuff LOL

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

lol that's awsome. Finally, a safe bag ... why not give it a try :D

What if you doubled or tripled-up the Lipo bags? Would that better suppress a fire?

@HeliGraphix

6 ай бұрын

This should increase its ability to withstand the thermal runaway, especially when you flip each layer by 180 degress so that there is no direct opening. Consider, though, that every solution that is a hassle tends to be bypassed soon. And since the solution won't be supperior to any of the more "professional" variants, it seems logical to go for one of these.

@laus9953

5 ай бұрын

​@@HeliGraphix I'm wondering whether one could wrap a couple of layers of several standard kitchen fire blankets around batteries for longer term storage, and also wrap some copper wire around the whole package to maintain it in the wrapped shape?! or possibly also bed the batteries in something like rock wool first?!

@HeliGraphix

5 ай бұрын

@@laus9953 Again it seems that such a solution could be effective (would need to be tested, though). Combined with a storange in a non-flammable area this might make sense for longer-term storage. Like said before, if you need to access the batteries more often, you will soon find yourself taking short cuts; thus the simplest (as in most convenient) solution that works is oftentimes also the safest one, simply because it gets used.

What if you put a lipo bag inside of an ammo can, inside of another lipo bag inside the bat-safe, inside another lipo bag?

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

The end of the world as we know it 😅

Price consideration and purchase lists on YT for new people looking to get into the hobby should always include battery safety expenses and consideration in the first place. They practically never do.....

Like My Friend

Where’s part 2 and 3 . No links ?

@HeliGraphix

4 жыл бұрын

Just check out the channel videos, all parts are conveniently compiled as a playlist

I have a new vid about LIPO storage with my invention / idea of the double can method to avoid chain reactions...

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing. The idea certainly is good - keep us posted about practicability. The best solutions won't be used unless easy to use, otherwise many of us will get "lazy" after a while and then the best safety concept is of little use. Might be the case when dealing with a higher number of "double cans". Either way, great idea, please do report back about your findings and progress.

@Sugalime3D_FPV

Жыл бұрын

​@@HeliGraphix With the labeling of the cans, you can find your batteries quickly... Yes, the effort is increased to open 2 tin cans. But I feel safer for that... But of course I can't guarantee whether it's really safer, because sheet metal is certainly not a good thermal insulator. Customized ceramic jars would be best...

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

@@Sugalime3D_FPV OK! Do report back your experience over time, will be interesting for many.

What about steel box like bat safe box for ebike battery 48 v 13ah. ?

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately doesn't exist because the energy content is well over 600 Wh - in such cases ZARGES will be among the very few players to provide you with officially tested boxes to withstand a potential thermal runaway of this magnitude.

@newyorkcity76

Жыл бұрын

@@HeliGraphix ZARGES Boxes expensive. Thanks for the info

But ok, let's say I get a Bat-Safe to store batteries in when I don't use them. What about when I'm charging them? Where to keep them during that? On a concrete floor?

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

Ideally you charge them in the BAT-Safe. If this doesn't work, then yes, any non-flammable surface without combustible material nearby should work. A friend of mine burnt down part of his house because platic pipes on the ceiling caught fire after a battery had a thermal runaway during charging; afte melting away the plastic pipes in less than a minute the fire spread to the adjacent rooms. You may want to keep this in mind when looking for a charging spot. Best is to always attend the charging and have a plan what to do should a battery catch on fire.

Я храню батареи в железном ящике для боеприпасов

These are way bigger batteries than the ones I have - mine had a smaller fire in the open air than yours have in the bag 😂

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

😅

It is meant for 2,000mah

@HeliGraphix

5 жыл бұрын

2000 mAh at what voltage (= how many Wh)? Where did you find the info, I've long been looking for such a statement but never found one. But even then, given the construction of this bag, if the odds are against you then you'll nonetheless burn down. Not worth taking the risk, the bag's a good idea but simply doesn't work.

Solution: Never mess with the battery

Why is there NOT a 12S or 14S Lipo Safe Bag, I see lots of 6S but no 12S!!

@HeliGraphix

7 ай бұрын

Because the bags cannot even really handle the smaller ones (one single 12s 5Ah alone is around 250 Wh in charged state!), and it's also a form factor question. In addition, consider that many people use 12s as 2x 6s, so overall a 12s stick is not very common. You may instead choose the BAT-Safe XL, an Ammo Box, or the ZARGES Battery Safe. See my two other videos.

which Size of Akku was this ?

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

6s with 115 Wh of energy. It is clearly stated in the video - you should watch it, there is more interesting stuff to know! ;-)

@r-k.fotografie2071

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeliGraphix i think a 3S 1300 will be not so terrible

@HeliGraphix

2 жыл бұрын

@@r-k.fotografie2071 Smaller battery is certainly better. Because the cells go off sequentially (i.e. one after the other), it'll probably still be a similar result, only that it'll last less long. Question is if within this time span it can light something else on fire (like a house or garage or car as some have reported here), and how much damage will the smoke do. I think the more decisive factor is the state of charge of the battery - fully charged will always be devastating, while storage voltage will be a lot less grave.

@r-k.fotografie2071

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeliGraphix Thank you for this Info´s

who the hell stores lipos fully charged? 🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻

Yeah, better use an ammo case instead. I'm using one of those green ones myself too and it really is the best protection. The issues with a lipo bag is also how one burning lipo means *all* your lipos in there are pretty much toast. Not a very good solution to anything. :)

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

Yes correct, ammo (or any rugged metal) case is much better. I have some real great footage showing how an ammo case behaves under the exact same testing conditions. Slow-motion reaveals some interesting facts; let me know your opinion once you've watched that video. Will be out next week, roughly same time.

@PHeMoX

6 жыл бұрын

Cool, looking forward to it! :)

@darkshock42mlg05

5 жыл бұрын

Then you use 1 for each lipo. The bag helps but the other solutions are better. I have an even better idea. Lipo bag in an ammo canister. Thats 2 layers.

A 6s battery is a big battery LoL

6s 15000mah "A small battery"

@HeliGraphix

2 жыл бұрын

It's 6s with 115 Wh of energy, so that's 5,200 mAh. A very common size in R/C modeling, and honestly, we often have much bigger ones.

50 Cal ammo metal ammo cans. Tupperware for men.

i doubt any of those bags are rated for ANY 6s battery. highly doubt they are made to contain even a 4s. if you could find ratings for those bags i guarantee those specs are exaggerated.

@slick2500

Жыл бұрын

There is a video somewhere on here where the guy tests a lipo bag with a 2s 2200mah lipo it still burned through.

And I thought these bags were ok.

@HeliGraphix

Жыл бұрын

I believe we pretty much all thought that at some point. Well, they aren't.

I'm sorry but I can't hear over the loud music :(.

@HeliGraphix

7 ай бұрын

The music is correctly balanced, but some devices have audio enhancement algorithms activated by default. If such a piece of software were to decide that it's predominantly a music track rather than a voice track with background music, it will boost the music so as to give you the best listening experience. In that case (and we ourselves have had such cases every now and then) you will of course have problems following the voice. Check your settings and deactivate all kinds of Dolby and similar enhancements.

@Eduardo_Espinoza

7 ай бұрын

check check check, but it's still loud :(@@HeliGraphix

did you puncture the lipo bag? lmao That defeats the purpose

@HeliGraphix

5 ай бұрын

As explained in the video, it actually doesn't - look at the failure mode!

Because you poked the hole with a nail through the bag that made a hole for oxygen to get in and feed the fire. I garente that if got the battery to go with out putting a hole in the bag it would do a different outcome

@HeliGraphix

4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, as explicitly mentioned in the video, the outcome is exactly the same.

You put LI-ION 18650 batteries in there not Li-Po... kzread.info/dash/bejne/ppWq0rqgna-XZrA.html

@HeliGraphix

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Tobias, yes correct - it is mentioned and explained in the same video at around 1:20. The overall result and conclusions are the same. You may check some lipo fire videos on the net that are even worse. The exact outcome seems to vary and we've heard about cases where the bag allegedly worked; but again, as said in the video, in most cases it doesn't and who would like to take that risk? It certainly defies the purpose. Therefore it's good to know there are alternatives we can choose from.

Dude, you punctured the bag to prove that its not safe? Those bags require that you don't have any punctures, it says that in the literal manual for half the bags with proper literature. In fact, it says 'inspect bag prior to use, if any hole is observed, discard the bag.' I don't get what you're trying to say, maybe review 100 different bags and see which bag leads to a competent result. This isn't a 'scientific method' of deduction by any means - its just 'see guys, the bag doesn't do anything when you destroy it before use.' Woo.

Im not using Lipos directly I prefer spend more money in a Life batteries than put my home, stuff, car, life under threath

LiPo bags are only meant to reduce punctures not to hold in fire

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

This I've never heard before. In that case the problem would be that they're clearly marketed otherwise, misleading people (including myself) to believe they provide safe storage. I'd also say it's unrealistic someone uses the bags for transportation (?), then takes all the lipos out for flying, puts 'em back in for tansport back home, then pulls 'em out again for charging and puts 'em into another container for storing. The LiPo bags I've seen are BTW also marketed for safe charging which certainly is equally dangerous as they do not hold back the fire. I appreciate the comment, though; maybe someone else can contribute whether they''ve seen these bags as being marketed for "puncture reduction only".

@laoch33

6 жыл бұрын

HeliGraphix.com Yes they are very misleading! I only learned this from other people in RC over the years, not from the places I bought them!

@HeliGraphix

6 жыл бұрын

Fun fact: I just saw that on one of my bags it says "Minimizes the risk of damage caused by LiPo fire". So at least this one was clearly marketed as "fire-proof". I think most are, if not every single one of them. The realization they at best will be able to prevent punctures is probably the very wise conclusion your fellow modelers reached over the years. They should spread the word more.

@AndrewR2130

5 жыл бұрын

And he is using lithium ion wich tend to get way way hotter than lipo and can explode iv had a lipo fire in one of thease bags a 4s lipo and it puffed up and smoked like hell but contained it so meh

@27pugsly

4 жыл бұрын

Andrew robinson plus the battery he put in it was humongous!!

like everything else there are good products and bad products. lots of cheap chinese knock offs are absolute garbage.. sold by amazon of course

@HeliGraphix

3 жыл бұрын

True words! The lipo bags however will never provide you with reliable protection, the design as such is flawed.