Since you asked.... I am a trim carpenter for 30+ years. You are correct in everything you said but you did leave a critical element. Wood is always moving due to temperature and moisture throughout the seasons. Even if you had all laser straight materials being applied to perfect plumb, level, and square structures, a flush joint would eventually be exposed over the years, especially when joining dissimilar materials. A reveal also helps mask a joints movement. I always liked the way it was said about about a reveal, "we celebrate the joint instead of hiding it."

@timothyshires967

Жыл бұрын

If you're still using this account and have some good materials on the finer points I'd appreciate it. Love this guy's channel but he's right about having to cater to the algorithm and I always end the video feeling a little more confidant but I'd like the phase where I have to explain to people that I'm not a professional in that aspect while getting them to understand I won't do a bad job but don't feel comfortable charging what I think the work is worth due to a lack of comprehensive understanding of the craft to be over. Then they say oh no it's fine and I do it and maybe it's just me but I'm always very dissatisfied with my work. They rarely complain and I just don't know if it's because they understood what I was saying or they just feel bad for me because I'm young

@airflowfpv7791

7 ай бұрын

@@timothyshires967 Stay at it Buddy!... It takes years to become a master carpenter. Just always do your very best and be honest. I don't know your skill set but just be careful when talking to clients, don't make yourself look to bad by being overly humble, to where they get nervous and decide to use someone else but at the same time, don't take on something you are not sure you can finish.. I'm saying there is a little bit of song and dance we have to do, when it comes to home owners, not always but everybody is different...

This book is Awesome! I love the Lean-To-Shed the most (page 98). The plan kzread.infoUgkxe9yi0sulKgsp0VJJCIrLWWkvVqcU7LFR is to attach it to the back of my brick house. I also like how they walk you through the many different steps of construction, which is important for the less experienced like me.

45-50 years ago I was helping my grandfather, who was a master carpenter, trim out a house he built for a customer. The customer and his wife asked why can’t you just flush this trim up, wouldn’t it look better? My grandfather explained why and even showed them some examples of trim in the house next door. He end up making some trim samples up to show them. Two of them had a couple of different reveals, one was flush and one was flush but he had used a block plane to do a slight chamfer where the two board came together. They decided on the trim detail with the slight chamfer. I remember my grandfather explain that even with the chamfer he couldn’t guarantee that the trim wouldn’t open up a little. The next week they decided to do a reveal on the trim. Luckily the trim had not been started yet when they changed their mind... His explanation made them look at trim differently and they looked at trim in other homes and realized the reveal and shadow line looked much better. That was a teaching moment for me as well and now you are providing that knowledge to others. Thanks...

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

That's an amazing story, Ron. The double chamfer is real master carpenter stuff--like some of the details you see in the famous Gamble house. I also appreciate that he took the time to teach them the logic behind the various decisions, and even made models. I sometimes fear that that level of dedication to craftsmanship is gone, but I also hope/believe there are folks out there who still take the time. I'm glad I can try to help roll it forward in any way I can. Thanks for writing in!

@PeakDogs67

3 жыл бұрын

I've done the double chamfer on shelf nosing but would never think to do it on a whole house of trim. That is an amazing amount of work.

@QuantumPyrite_88.9

3 жыл бұрын

@Ron H - Excellent and thanks for sharing .

@shawnrhaas

3 жыл бұрын

That's a great story. I always want the client to give their input on details, they're paying for it and have to live with it. I was finishing up a rail cap on a job and in this case unfortunately asked the owner their preference. When I showed him a sample mock up with the overhang option which would create our Reveal he instantly suggested Flushing them up. Oh boy I thought. I tried explaining the whole reveal concept, obviously not as articulate as our THC did. He thought his idea was better, so we stood there in face off mode till he walked off. I finished the job with the appropriate reveal I saw fit.

@angellas.1314

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheHonestCarpenter Okay. Now what is chamfer?

80+ .... renovated my home, and helped many friends, family with home-do's. With a technical background, I've done everything from remedial drywall, to plumbing, to electrical .... with a lot of simple carpentry, woodworking thrown in. Been at the home improvements thing now for well over 20 years. This is the FIRST explanation/description of something I've noticed long ago, but had no idea it was a "formal" or intentional treatment. Being a loner, never had anyone show me or teach me the old ways, or "tricks of the ..." . Just always wanted to do it "right". This revelation from you is truly a great step forward for this old man in knowledge and workmanship. Huge THANK YOU!! My work will be the better for your effort, skill, and taking the time to inform. Great job!

@Olbc249

2 жыл бұрын

I’m with you 100%… this is priceless info for someone like me- and you…

I’ve been doin this my entire career without knowing it was the right thing to do. I got thrown into a trim job a while back not knowing anything about it. Put my first piece up I just knew that making a perfect matching edge was impossible. So my on the job fix was to set it back a little for that “step”. Great video. Makes me feel like I know what I’m doin sometimes lol

Had my dad set me straight on setting the reveal when I was 11 helping him trim the doors in our house- have always checked the reveals since- this also applies to cabinet door alignments, spacing of the door in the jamb, drawer face either proud or recessed, sliding doors, windows, anything where two surfaces come together

As a longtime carpenter, I've never seen revals better explained. On point!! You win the interwebs for today!!

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, turkey! Always glad to hear feedback from other carpenters 😄

I so take the reveal for granted that I couldn't guess what the "trim secret" was! The nice thing about this is that it's a lesson one only ever needs to learn the one time before it becomes standard.

@giovannistockton-rossini7839

3 жыл бұрын

Haha same!!

This content is so organized, I have no words! I’m about to walk around my house looking for reveals lol

20 years ago my remodeling carpenter walked me thru this. When I started diy, I recalled this lesson. I appreciate you sharing it today.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Anne! It's funny that I can't remember who taught me reveals (probably my dad), but it sure as heck stays with you because there's such a helpful philosophy attached to it :)

@coastalstageproductions970

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheHonestCarpenter The same situation happened with me. I built a custom home in 2008 and my woodshop carpenter taught me about reveals and the difference between "rosettes" and the "head blocks" that he used around each of my door and window frames. Today, I'm personally remodeling my current home and remembering the trick of the reveal. Thanks for such great videos!

Reveals are super important! David Smith hit the nail on the head. You explained it in a way I hadn’t thought about it before. And I just built my first door frame from scratch. Really made me appreciate this concept even more! Thanks man!!

This was very revealing.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

😆

@ItsAsparageese

3 жыл бұрын

BA DUM TSSS

@a..d5518

3 жыл бұрын

We see what you did there...

@markme4

3 жыл бұрын

Damn why didn't I think of that one !

@merishaclanton1997

3 жыл бұрын

🤣

I knew the reveals existed but never thought of them that way. I’m just a weekend handyman so this helped me out a lot.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Glad to hear, David!

@Reasonably-Sane

3 жыл бұрын

I never thought of them like that either. I'm so glad that I subscribed to his channel.

@Tonberry88

3 жыл бұрын

I work as a Maintenance Technician and I always thought you push the trim back slightly so your hinges and Striker plates aren't touching it...

@fabianmahorn7545

3 жыл бұрын

I noticed them but I'm new to DIY and the first door I helped install was pre-hung and I didn't know those extra "lips", which was what I always called them, was for beauty and purpose.

I appreciate the fact that you get right to the point of your video and don't waste time with small talk, showing me your dog, kids, etc. When I look at instructional videos on KZread, I do so to learn, not for entertainment. Thank you.

I was a residential painter for a long time and never knew this, but it was a real pleasure painting behind and putting the finishing beauty on what a good trim carpenter did. Maybe this is part of the reason. Also little details that made a difference were enough nails, but not too much and almost every nail was set right, leaving a hole to fill, not too many sticking out and making an eye sore. Another detail was gaps were straight and consistent. I could tell when it was a focus, and it made a difference in how much caulking had to be used and effort towards making up for the lack of consistency.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Very good perspective, Hal. Painters are in the best position to identify and benefit from good trim work. My painting skills are so bad, I'm always amazed what good painters can accomplish with bad trim work. There's an art to the cover-up. And good point with the nailing--in my head I've been putting together a trim nailing video for a while. I'm going to draw attention to some of the things you said here. 👍

@HAL-dm1eh

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheHonestCarpenter It is definitely a learned skill. Awesome to hear you talking about what I mentioned. I look forward to that. You're a great teacher!

cant tell you how relived I was after watching this. Just did a big trim install in my dinning room. I saw this title and thought "oh no what didn't I do right?" To my surprise I did exactly what you're talking about. Not bc I knew what I was doing but paying attention to details around the house and copying those. Guess I owe the previous installer a big thank you too.

Thank you for mentioning the concept of shadow lines. You'll see it and understand it on the exterior as well, especially with vinyl siding. If there are 2 houses next to each and one just has standard D4 vinyl siding, while the other has D4 Dutch lap siding, the Dutch lap one will be more appealing and most people aren't even able to explain why they prefer the look of the Dutch lap house.

@mangos2888

3 жыл бұрын

Googles “dutch lap siding”

I've observed reveals while I was working on my trims. And I just thought that reveals look nice and give the trimmer more latitude I use reveals all the time. As for myself this video revealed that trim detail had a name and great reasons for its use. I'm just a DIY guy looking for woodworking solutions as I work on my house.

You just opened my eyes to something so important. I'm about to retrim my entire house, from baseboards to window trims and door trims, even building new shelves as well.

What do I think about this video? I love it. The subject cannot be presented better.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Philippe!

@simonhorsfield2436

3 жыл бұрын

Great Video - wish I had seen it last month when I DIY fitted a door frame without doing this. It now looks awful 😭

@HBSuccess

3 жыл бұрын

I agree Very good job HC.

Several years ago I did trim carpentry for a track home builder. I really enjoyed the challenge of making an out-of-plumb doorway become perfectly plumb and level. The reveal is the fixer of almost any framing error. If the hinge side of a door is out of plumb, the door will not stay in position, unless it's closed. Sadly, I bought a house that has a bathroom door that is out of plumb on the hinge side. It's a framing issue. One of these days I will take it down and install it correctly. It's been 12 years, so I'm about ready to fix it. Yep.

@9mmkahr

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing a big ole 4" screw through the top hinge can't fix??

I re did about 6 doors and 3 window trims at my first home. It was a house and it turned out amazing but I knew something was just off...never heard of this but that was 100% the problem! Lesson learned !

My living room was constructed without trim around the doors and windows. I am planning on adding it this summer because I feel it will make the room look finished. Your video was very helpful in explaining why the reveal is so important.

This may get covered in a later video, but having a consistent reveal helps to hide “forced reveals” caused by hinges and striker plate. Most pre-hung doors have mortise hinges causing a 1/8” reveal, plus a thicker trim will rub against the moving parts of the hinge, so you move the trim another 1/8” (1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4) to prevent rubbing

As important as the subject is I'm sure that not everyone knows about this. Really appreciate the way you explain it James. Once again, I learned something that would ensure quality and standards in a job. And most importantly turning weaknesses into strengths.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching, Surajit!

There's a big difference between a rough in Carpenter & a Finish Carpenter. The simplicity of your explanation made that "aha" moment for me. Thank you for taking the time to make this video!

You revealed the importance of “the reveal.” Never thought about it before, noticed it, but now I understand why.

I'm not a carpenter, handy man. I'm just a diyer. I've put all new trim, base boards and door jams and new doors in my house. I thought when I did this I was just adding a bit of architecture. I love alot of detail in my wood working. I actually used this technique to create my own home made trim for a round a basement window that had none. I was pleasantly surprised! Thank you so much for the helpful information! I am learning alot here! 🌹🙂🌺

5:10 Their true usefulness didn't even occur to me until an experienced carpenter like yourself shared your knowledge. Thank you.

I’m just a tree guy but do pay attention to detail , now I know what’s been bothering me for years. I started out as a apprentice carpenter in 1988 , but the work was slow in my area. Really enjoy your videos. Now I’m a ISA certified Arborist lol who knew.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching, hillbilly! I like watching the arborists work, takes a lot of guts and skill.

@treeguyable

3 жыл бұрын

Been climbing and running my tree business 30 yrs. Redid a lot in my house and most of the trim, redid it with trees I took down, then cut on my sawmill, and planed them. Glad my carpenter best friend, revealed reveal to me!

As an apprentice trim carpenter I love these education topics Im hooked .

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, garuda! Good luck with the apprenticeship. You'll pick all this stuff up fast with a good in-the-field instructor.

I am always lookin for ways to improve my diy game, that said this was very good, and often wondered about the extra space, this will make the pain of lining everything up much easier, along with all the 'dressing up afterward' too! Thanks Incidently, I was wondering about a mitering video for framing window moulding or base or ceiling moulding.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Grand! I'm working on getting some new shop space. I'll definitely do some extensive miter saw / miter cut videos as soon as I can :)

remodeling an 1890's farm house with very few reveals and you are right about every defect 'stands out'. We will add in some of these ideas during the remodel of the old windows.

Simple and genius. In math, chemistry, and building, the "elegant" answer is usually the less complicated and more orifice solution. Bravo 👏

Just a bit of trivia if you American chippies are interested. In Australia they call that setback a 'quirk'. 'Reveal size' is generally used to refer to the finished opening size. However, the dressed board around the internal of the window which attaches the window frame to the framing stud is also called the 'reveal'.

You are 100% correct about reveals. Long ago when I was starting out I did not understand this concept and wondered why my work looked funny when I was done. I don't remember what show on tv I was watching but they demonstrated the reveal and explained it. The next time I was called to do trim work, I made the reveal and lo and behold when I stepped back I got down with my bad self. I tell people it creates architectural interest and dimension. And my wife and family compliment me on my such good work. Do yourself a favor folks and listen to the masters. They know what they are talking about and there is a positive reason why they do the things the way they do.

I’m glad you spoke about the depth of the reveal. Sometimes I stare at the trim and cannot decide. Recently I made a segmented arch using 6” poplar (1-1/8” thick) casing. The width of the casing coerced me to try a deeper reveal. Thank God I did. From a few feet away, the reveal looks perfect and seems to match the other shadow lines in the casing. I’m not an artist and far from a master carpenter, so It doesn’t come naturally to me. Some other trim I did in my house, I wish I had used deeper reveals or thicker materials to improve shadow lines. No one has noticed except me, lol.

I learned this years ago working with a carpenter. I asked why he set the trim back. "It's called a reveal" I immediately saw the difference. I think of that and smile when I notice a reveal...everywhere!

I love your stuff. I’ve been doing construction for years, but very specific things, finish drywall, wood restoration, detailed side of things, and I’m grateful for the information you share. Please keep up the good work 🔨

Im just a homeowner and you just gave a real and practical architecture class. Good stuff!

Thank you Ethan I think I need to watch it again to understand more carefully I’m a beginner so I love the way you explain things thanks for all you do

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Kathy! Have a look around your house, especially doors and windows. In 95% of cases you'll find them :)

@kathyr.6825

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheHonestCarpenter I just looked at my front door that my favorite carpenter installed and what do you know I see a reveal LOL no wonder his work looks so beautiful he also built me a fireplace from scratch

@angellas.1314

3 жыл бұрын

@@kathyr.6825 Now I’m going to have to look around also my doors and windows. I had new ones installed a year ago.

This is a top example of "if you know you know"- Every house, public building, hotel room, etc. you will now notice the quality of this feature I call "The Quarter Inch". For better or worse.. Thanks for the great content!

I am a DIYer. I truly appreciate the videos you put out. They are very helpful and I have learned so much. I do a lot of painting and caulking around doors and trim. I had noticed this feature, but did not realize it was done on purpose or why. In fact I often thought it was a mistake or poor carpentry. Now I know why it is done and that it is on purpose. It makes so much sense and does make things look better. I also have installed trim and now know i need to add a reveal when I do trim. Thank you so much for this video.

I am no carpenter but I have done some trim work around the house. I always included the reveal because I saw that that is how everywhere else and I assumed that was the proper way to install trim. Now I know why. Thanks

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

You're welcome, Daniel! When in doubt, always best to imitate. Good job catching it.

Precise, concise, honest. I’m starting woodworking projects and your pro advice will definitely guide me along the way

Awesome Video. Perfect explanations for this critical element.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Erik!

My “contractor” installed my bathroom doors without a reveal. He was supposed to come back and fix it, but never did. I’m finally going to fix it myself this week!

As a homeowner DIY ... this is really useful for my future projects !

What a great & honest carpenter you are.! Even better when you are willing to share all your professional experiences to others. I'd appreciated very much your behavior.

Very interesting information, my house is older and has many of the reveals you are talking about, especially the door and window frames and other openings. I've always known whoever built it knew what they were doing.

40 years of owning a home and this is the first time I've heard of this, yet it was right in front of me the whole time. It all makes sense now, my eyes have been opened :)))

I've never heard of reveals before, but as soon as you explained them they made perfect sense! Would be great to have some of those future videos you mention, showing how/where/when to include them in work

Thank you very much. I'm in the process of finishing a cottage. I love the idea. The carpenter who installed our doors & windows in our house reno in 2018 used reveals where possible. Great look.

One of the best so called "tricks of the trade" taught to me by an old retired carpenter that helped me with my rental property fixes. I'll never forget old Ray, and his cheap tiny cigars. I always had to keep him stocked because he never stopped working. That man did more with a hammer and saw, he was old school. Only a few tools, this video brought back many memories.

After watching this video, I can't help but notice where these reveals are and aren't used. Great experience and information to share with us. Thank you!

I love how your videos are so detailed and easy to understand. Never new reveals were so important. Keep feeding us this valuable info!

Love the historical context and application you put in your videos. You are a very practical carpenter and excellent teacher. Keep it up!

That was beautiful! As a handy husband myself working on our fixer upper, I am really glad to have learned this trick! The combo square 90 degree marking was perfect too.

Appreciate the simple and efficient explanations. I don’t see reveals in the older track homes I renovate. Laziness, I think. It’s an effective way to build layers of light into entries. Our eyes appreciate the journey.

My home was built in 1954. I’m looking around as I watch you talking, there’s reveals everywhere! 😍 thank you for educating me.

@TheHonestCarpenter

2 жыл бұрын

You’re welcome, Cristina! 😄

You are a wonderful teacher/explainer/show-er/teacher. Thank you for doing what you are so great at.

I'm listening to this about 4 minutes in and started thinking about some of the amazing structures they created centuries ago with all the detail and curves, and just then, you started talking about the same thing! 😆 Thanks this was great

Being a DIYer, by the time the trim is installed, I already spent way too much time doing the project. Not to mention tired and sore with an aching back. Trim is the last thing that I feel like doing, but agree 100% with you.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, trim is a total phase shift, Stan. Requires going into another mindset completely, which can be grueling after a big frame-out and drywall work.

@a..d5518

3 жыл бұрын

As a DIYer myself I know all too well the fatigue brought on by remodeling, I learned long ago about adding a day to an “already too long” project, you can start fresh and enjoy the much less grueling work, that really adds a beautiful touch to your project. Hang in there!

This was my first time hearing about this, and it’s very appreciated to hear about this. I’ll be mindful moving forwards when looking at trims.

Educating. I have painted thousands of jams but never gave thought to the important issues you addressed. Thanks.

I’m an new DIYer this is my first time hearing of this. But it really makes a lot of sense after you explained the concept. Thanks again for great content :)

I don't consider myself a carpenter, but I've been remodeling and building and helping family and friends with remodeling for decades. I learned the reveal over 20 years ago and never looked back. It's always more appealing, and it drives me crazy to see otherwise when I walk into someone else's house. 😅

This is my first time hearing about reveals. I am a total noob but you have sparked my interest. Thank you

I bought a home that was a rental and got beat up badly. I got it at a good price and it's 80% perfect handicap adapted. That handicap adaptation was the reason I bought a "lemon"!!! The renter painted doors, cabinets and counters with high gloss porch FLOOR paint! I'll never get it off, I just have to make the best of the situation. PLEASE keep posting lessons that I can be aware when I go shopping and not get taken advantage of at big box hardware store and low life contractors.

Wow, that is very eye opening. Thanks for sharing. I try to fix my house over the weekend and this little but very well described tips go a very long way. Much appreciated!

Great explainer video. This is a topic I have to explain to most of my clients as well as apprentices I hire. Going to just give them a link to your video now.

@TheHonestCarpenter

3 жыл бұрын

I'm glad it helps, Jennifer! Feel free to pass along to anybody who's curious :)

This is around the 10th video about trim I've watched before I do a couple windows for the first time and it's the first one that has explained the reveal and why it's important later on. So many other videos go flush and just do it because it's easier. So glad I saw this my windows are going to look freaking awesome now! Thanks man!

Thank you. I know about what a reveal is, I just didn't realize how important they are and how they work on the eye.

Great post!

I love your videos man, I'm a young guy who starts doing carpentry and I'm getting so much information by just watching at your videos. Thanks man

Thanks for your reveal of reveals, a truly revealing technique.

Fantastic. I have used them but never knew these details. I have copied them in some of my houses but forgot them in others. I am building a house now and will ABSOLUTELY use your suggestions. AWESOME. THANKS

This is so timely, we are currently having a house built and when they installed the trim work we were initially confused that all the trim seemed offset from where we (not carpenters) thought it should be. But we know we have a good builder so we didn't say anything and just trusted it was right. Well a month later it all gets painted and it looks great obv the offset is there but it looks "right". Now I know why they did it! very cool.

I'm a tile guy , I did all the trim work in my house and did everything using the reveal, I just didn't know why until now . Thank you for your videos I find them very interesting.

LOVE this … I found this just in time, before I install some doors I got on discount from the habitat store. The trim installation at the end would have been a disaster if I had not watched this first!😱…thank you … Love the way you teach at a perfect pace and do not waste time. ❤️. Even your opening jingle is timed perfectly.😂

@TheHonestCarpenter

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Lisa! 😄

Reveals are new to me...like most of carpentry. Thanks for the lesson.

Another great video. It’s all in the details as you point out so well.

Thanks to this video the trim around a door that I had replaced is now correct. There's a pocket door in the same room that a previous owner had done without a reveal and it totally stands out now that I look at it.

Great explanation of a topic not discussed for beginners. Thanks!

In the Roman ceilings they used these designs to also remove an enormous amount of material necessary otherwise and to reduce the overall weight.

I've seen reveals, but I didn't know that is what they are called. It does make things look better.

Great advice, just starting my journey at 52, a good stuff thanks

Once you start getting experienced you wont even need to use the square to mark a 1/4" ,you just sight it naturally!.good stuff

I loved this video! I had no idea this was the purpose of a reveal, and now I'm walking all over my home to look at all of them. Also, the more of your videos I watch, the more I think of an idea for another video: "Pro carpenter jargon" every time you mention terms of your trade, like "true up" on your last video, I feel like I learn things as bonus from the main subject, and I love that extra feature in all your videos

If been doing carpentry for over 50 years and you do an excellent job explaining it👍

Nailed it! I had no idea! Thanks for making me take another look at how I install trim (diy-er).

Makes a lot of sense.The shadow creates the perfect line!

I recently trimmed a few windows in the house. Looks like before moving on to the rest, I have some re-work to do... Glad I saw this now rather than later

Great explanation of the subject.

Really interesting. Thank you for that excellent primer into reveals. I’m starting to teach myself how to trim out my interior doors and kept hearing about the reveal but I never understood the rationale. This you have clarified for me.

Ive never thought about the reveal. But its worth thinking about.

Fascinating! Homeowner with a few diy skills, and never heard of reveals until this video. Now I can see them. You've revealed reveals to me ha ha:) Thanks for a great video!

I think this video answers deep questions I’ve had I didn’t even really know to ask. Lol awesome video and info!

I’ve been curious about the construction of these in my 1885 house, it makes perfect sense, thanks for explaining.

Thank you! Now I know what the contractor was talking about!! He was very big on the “reveal” and I thought he meant how it would all look when he revealed his finished work! Well, he did, literally and literally!!