Jasco: "We can't give you that firmware, it's proprietary and unavailable to end users" Linus: "That being the case I would like to return $10,000 worth of switches for not operating as expected due to a firmware issue"

@monkeywithocd

2 жыл бұрын

No kidding. Sounded like he bought them new from them so I would be demanding they either refund me or update the firmware themselves at no cost to me if they're going to be obstinate assholes about it.

@richardlincoln886

2 жыл бұрын

..."for not being fit for purpose" (is that a consumer law in Canada?)

@Eyproshit

2 жыл бұрын

@@monkeywithocd The problem is that the 10k isnt only the sum for the switches but includes the installation etc, and the chances of getting that money back are probably zero.

@hwarr12

2 жыл бұрын

​@@richardlincoln886 Dunno about Canadia, but that is definitely a thing in Australia. Australian Consumer Law has a very clear section regarding products and how they need to be "fit for purpose". To the point where "fit for purpose" can include what the end user themselves define as the 'purpose'. It was a never ending issue when I worked in the RMA department at a tech store. Always arguments over the difference between a product's 'fitness for purpose' vs a customer's expectations of the product. "Oh, so you'd like to return those headphones because they don't have noise cancellation? Sorry fam, that's just a lesson in doing your research first." "bUt iT's NoT fIt fOr pUrPoSe, I wAnTeD ANC! ReEeEeE" "Sorry mate, that kind of feature is usually very prominently displayed, and there's plenty of resources to consult regarding a product's features - heck, you could have even asked one of our salesmen, and they could have told you that." "This is BS, I'm going to calle the Ombudsman!" "Righto mate, have a good day of it then :)"

@davidreynolds9649

2 жыл бұрын

@@hwarr12 Same in UK

Someone needs to educate Jasco and their support department on what the whole point of firmware is…. To allow us to update our buggy devices and fix both functional and actual safety issues. I think the next part of this story should be: So we ripped the firmware from a newer switch and used it to update the old switches, checkmate.

@dacid44

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, they bought new products. They had old firmware. I don't think buying another new one would give them a device with any newer firmware. I think Jasco's intended solution is to connect the device to their app and update it that way instead of allowing it through Home Assistant. Which is... not great.

@DavidMac8Six8

2 жыл бұрын

@@dacid44 I think he meant to rip it from the other switch. The one that looks similar that wasn't a dimmer but looks identical.

@ardemus

2 жыл бұрын

@@justinepaula-robilliard Too many people don't care, don't complain, don't return, and keep buying. It's like Binding Arbitration, Class Action Waivers, Dispute NDAs, and other garbage companies are increasingly putting in their Terms of Service. They're getting away with it because we, as a society, aren't walking out when we see it. I walk out, I'm right on the edge of ditching my cell phone service entirely because it's all gone too far. I believe, that as a society, we get what we buy and we work where we shop.

@primefactors888

2 жыл бұрын

Well can't they provide firmware in binary files, like every proprietory product, or if that's not the case they can provide technicians to go to there clients and update the firmware

@JoshMutia

2 жыл бұрын

Seems like a way for Jasco to get more money through planned obsolescence. Yikes.

The plumbing pipe he is talking about is called poly butelyne. The plastic fittings crack pretty easily and cause issues.

@Bigrignohio

2 жыл бұрын

As opposed to PEX with the better plastic and/or brass/stainless fittings. Use the expansion type fittings/connectors (Uponor/Wirsbo) and it is pretty much foolproof AND will last a half century (45 to 50 years).

@Oxblood1987

2 жыл бұрын

There is also Kitec which is a sandwich of pex and rolled seem aluminum which has a tendency to split cause pipe failure.

@Bigrignohio

2 жыл бұрын

@@Oxblood1987 Rolled aluminum and PEX? Sounds like one of the O2 barrier tubing used for radiant heating.

@davidklein1245

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. Poly-B. Already replaced one entire house worth of that. Never want to do it again.

@LincolnRon

2 жыл бұрын

@@Bigrignohio This video gives a visual demonstration of the difference between PolyB and PEX. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qW18vK5xYqfgfcY.html

no firmware upgrade to end user that's totally insane, that's just blown my mind how stupidly crazy that company is, they don't deserve a single sale ever again.

@dparks256

2 жыл бұрын

In enterprise, the version of this is "only installers/resellers can get firmware." drives me frickin insane.

@qt31415

2 жыл бұрын

you have to subscribe to have new firmware mate

@TheIrisCZ

2 жыл бұрын

The worst thing is that this probably is just a one-man decision. Some schmuck has decided to cash out on selling their service despite the developers clearly intended for the end users to update the firmware themselves. And you cannot do anything about it, even as a part of this company. All you can do is to feel shame for idiotic decision that make you look bad. Hopefully this video will go viral, get to the company itself and change their behavior because of bad PR.

@jureslokar6529

2 жыл бұрын

ive worked in the smart home industry in the past, zwave specifically, you would be surprised how common it is to now offer end customers with OTA files and require them to take the device back to a "certified seller" that will update the firmware for you "for free" even though you then need to pay for deinstallation and installation of the devices.... i would hazard a bet that its an industry standard in the zwave space.

@TechyBen

2 жыл бұрын

@@qt31415 No, you just have to buy their hub. Their hub has direct internet access so can ping their server and possibly do a handshake. Or it's just security through obscurity. Plus like Nintendo got caught, they are probably using opensource apis/source code and not paying it forwards, while also using closed source AIP/code that they are not paying licencing on. That, or it's a normal microcontroller with a normal bit of code, but they don't want anyone even trying to copy the decide, as they got no product or service worth selling, so they hold up a curtain for the wizard to hide behind.

Apparently they tweeted after this stream (before the KZread) an apology for everyone and intent to change the firmware process. So Linus gets it done again. Wish he didn't have to.

@greenman8

2 жыл бұрын

I saw their Better Business report. Ooof!

@BrilliantDesignOnline

2 жыл бұрын

Four days later and no firmware updates.

@aonodensetsu

Жыл бұрын

3 months later and it's available

@zackglenn2847

Жыл бұрын

I'm glad they managed to pull their head out of their a**. But we all know that only happened because it was Linus getting mad at them instead of a regular customer.

@aonodensetsu

3 ай бұрын

@@everythingpony quite literally found it back then, search better maybe?

Who knew flipping a light switch in the room you want to be in was such a hassle

@potatoes5829

2 жыл бұрын

Yea I definitely agree

@BrumBrumBryn

2 жыл бұрын

Who knew getting up and changing the channel using the buttons on a TV was such a hassle

@rai_l

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrumBrumBryn thing is you'll usually want to change the channel/volume/other settings on the TV far more often than just turning lights on/off

@Crumpy627

2 жыл бұрын

@@rai_l 100% fuck with my TV settings 1000s of times more than I fuck with my lights.

@kghyeah9032

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrumBrumBryn Rip to your lights if you’re messing with them as much as you flip through channels or adjust volume.

Thought he was gonna say they charged him for it. Somehow they outperformed my absurd hypothetical.

@himaro101

2 жыл бұрын

This. I thought they'd put upgrades behind a subscription model or took a leaf out of in car satnav updates and expect hundreds of £££ up front.

@ZeroX252

2 жыл бұрын

Still upset with Subaru on this shit. Bought a car manufactured in 2013 with maps from 2009. They wanted like five grand for a fucking map update.

@nathanz7205

2 жыл бұрын

@@ZeroX252 Any Subaru with Starlink or whatever is free to update if you take it to a dealer. Call SOA if your dealer charges you, charging for it is not a Subaru thing. Ive had 3 cars all updated for free.

@ZeroX252

2 жыл бұрын

@@nathanz7205 That was through Subaru not through my dealer. Granted this was a decade ago and Google Maps wasn't reliable because 3g cell service was still more prevalent than 4g. I yanked the abysmal head unit out and upgraded to a full dash replacement android unit and haven't looked back. FWIW the automotive industry really needs to up their game on what powers the in-vehicle dash systems, or use technology that relies on the end-users cellphone to do the heavy lifting. That 2013 Subaru head unit had an arm CPU from 2001 in it. It took several seconds for the predictive text after each keypress. It's especially insulting when that's what the "premium" audio package comes with.

@ZeroX252

2 жыл бұрын

Some cursory research shows that they changed their map delivery system in 2015, and the verbiage on the site they link to for map data updates would suggest that you may still have to pay depending on your model and warranty status.

We should be able to sue companies like this for anti-consumer practices. Think of the e-waste generated by knowingly pumping out faulty devices.

@Reverend_Salem

2 жыл бұрын

or even just obsolete firmware in 2-3 years.

@sporqist

2 жыл бұрын

@@Reverend_Salem Smartphones.. I have a perfectly fine OnePlus 6t from 2018. Great battery. Runs all the apps very smooth. I love the device but guess what? It's EOL since q1 this year.

@9aronka

2 жыл бұрын

@@sporqist I also have a 6t, what does EOL mean?

@Merlinen82

2 жыл бұрын

@@9aronka End Of Life

@9aronka

2 жыл бұрын

@@Merlinen82 damn, so no more updates I guess?

Scotty said it best... "The more you complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

@CMDRSweeper

2 жыл бұрын

"Here from one surgeon to another..." :D

@xpyr

2 жыл бұрын

Here's the video where he said it kzread.info/dash/bejne/hmaC1baij5eZl5c.html

They have updated firmware but WON'T PROVIDE IT? They do NOT belong in the smart home device business!

@MultiKokonutz

2 жыл бұрын

You could just dump the spi/i2c chip or use jtag. You know, super easy

@crunch9876

2 жыл бұрын

@@MultiKokonutz I have installed smart homes for a living and have no idea what your talking about

@RandarTheBarbarian

2 жыл бұрын

@@crunch9876 He's talking about different industry standard I/O methods to directly get a newer firmware version from one of the ICs in switches functioning as intended to then redeploy it to ones that aren't I do believe... which yeah... You know, super easy /s

@OhhCrapGuy

2 жыл бұрын

@@RandarTheBarbarian I mean, super easy for those of us in the know, but for anyone who doesn't know how to connect it up to a firmware reader/writer, it's just about useless.

@davidreynolds9649

2 жыл бұрын

Yes to all the replies. I'm surprised the update hasn't been leaked by at least one person!

I'm an electrician so this is pretty funny to me. There's half a dozen different systems out and they all suck in different ways. The coolest ones I've seen are PICO switches, the way I understand it each press of the button generates just enough power to send a quick radio signal to a hub. This means the switches are totally wireless and don't need batteries. It's a breeze to install

@zevklein9076

2 жыл бұрын

pico is from luton and work with there home worx radio ra and caseta switches

@ctaaaaaaa

2 жыл бұрын

pico’s have batteries but last a very long time, they say 10+ years

@ctaaaaaaa

2 жыл бұрын

But yes lutron caseta is definitely the best consumer light switch lineup

@jorgetello3961

2 жыл бұрын

@@ctaaaaaaa gotcha, someone probably misunderstood a representative and it telephoned into "each press generates enough power for a radio wave". I work in commercial applications so if thats the case thats gonna really suck 10 years down the road, I didn't see a way to replace a battery and those switches are pricey. It's gonna be a hell of a bill to replace all of em every 10 years

@bar10005

2 жыл бұрын

​@@jorgetello3961 Yeah, Pico use normal CR2032 just have small power requirements, so Lutron declares 10 year battery life on a single battery (and it's replaceable - there's small screw on the back that releases battery compartment). Though switches that generate own power do exist and typically have "kinetic" in their name.

I will never ever smartify my home. The thought of having my home depending on an app that eventually will not be supported is just terrifying. Mechanical switches worked in the past and will work in the future too.

@RetroPlus

2 жыл бұрын

Reliability over convenience always

@davidpanic

2 жыл бұрын

It doesn't have to depend on something that's eventually unsupported. That's the whole point of home assistant, you run it locally on your own device (usually a raspberry pi) and the network traffic never leaves your local network, even works without internet.

@petervalasik1149

2 жыл бұрын

There is better way to do it. With real automation systems made for building. it's programmed by engineer(me working in industry for over 5 years) to your taste and doesn't need any connection. And lighting is not smart building it's just gimmick. Smart home integrates Air Handling systems, temperature handling systems etc to one central station. Lighting is just bonus on the end. And if your needs change after few years you just call to engineer and he/she can reprogram it for your taste aggain and aggain and aggain. No apps, internet and other bulsh*t. You even can have HMI(human machine iterfaces) anywhere in your house or your phone can act as HMI also. AND also locally. And if you really need, you can connect goggle home or another assistant to control your system by voice.

@parazeet2525

Жыл бұрын

There are numerous devices that make direct control available (wall switches, wall sockets, shutter switches..)

@grqfes

Жыл бұрын

@@petervalasik1149 thats got to be really expensive though linus has indeed spent 10k on switches alone

I love the story arc here. Linus starts off cursing home assistant because it's open source and a little difficult to work with, and at the end of the video he's absolutely screwed over by proprietary software. Hilariously, if the firmware had been open source, this whole fiasco would have been completely avoided.

As an infosec guy, this makes me very curious about what demons they're hiding in their firmware. They should be begging their customers to keep their devices updated. Sounds like they think they're supporting some old refrigerators where some tech has to plug a serial cable into the board to push an update.

@almostanengineer

2 жыл бұрын

Supporting old devices alone would be a good thing, but they should also be able to support ‘self updating’ firmware.

@teemup9247

2 жыл бұрын

I instantly got the same thought. There is no company that doesn't want their product kept up to date. And there has to be reason for this stance....

@mattymerr701

2 жыл бұрын

They might have thought linus wanted the source, which is a dumb assumption.

@TheObsesedAnimeFreaks

2 жыл бұрын

@@Flightcontrol96 then you get sued for damages to someone's house when some hacker gets in and tries to set the place on fire, or botnets someone.

@TheObsesedAnimeFreaks

2 жыл бұрын

@@Flightcontrol96 well as a class you can ask for far more money such that any damage to your property or working days would be covered. Since well... If your IoT device gets your isp to cut service and the cost of figuring out what went wrong... Can cost you hundreds of not thousands of dollars. And they should be required to pay that.

Linus' issue is VERY common in old, dinosaur commercial suppliers. I ran into the same problem a decade ago. I was doing IT consulting and a customer had some HVAC software. I called their support and they told me that they don't interact with the end user and that I had to find a commercial HVAC vendor that was a reseller for their products in order to get support. It is such an ancient way of doing business.

@pizzaivlife

2 жыл бұрын

yeah it is bizzare- I am 30 and can't think of anything I own that I would expect to need a third part servicer as an intermediate on, and I would certaintly avoid going into such a situation

@KenS1267

2 жыл бұрын

I did contract coding for a reasonably well known HVAC company a couple of decades ago. I sat in a meeting with some of their senior engineers and product folks and the subject of how to push out SW updates came up and they could not even understand that such could ever be a thing or why it would ever be desirable. As far as they were concerned the SW would get installed when the unit came off the production line and that was that. If it sat in a warehouse for a couple of years and the SW improved the units efficiency over that time or just removed a bug? They did not care. I finally got them to the point where they agreed installing firmware updates could be part of servicing like adding coolant or replacing/cleaning filters. They seemed surprised that the systems already had an RS-232 connector so techs could connect using laptops and that it would be trivial to push a firmware update over that. I'm guessing the guy who came after me had to try and get them to move to USB.

@doublinx2

2 жыл бұрын

@@KenS1267 oh brother. Hopefully all their important systems don't need to talk to the internet or smartphones for any reason...right? Right?

@KenS1267

2 жыл бұрын

@@doublinx2 In 2000? There were no smartphones and IOT was at best a dream.

I can't imagine the firmware for a light switch would be that complicated. I wouldn't think it would be hard to write an open source firmware for it. The fact that they don't want to give out the firmware makes me think they are not doing any encryption on it and the hex for the firmware is just the hex that runs on the microcontroller.

@luckyowl10

2 жыл бұрын

if they don't use encryption on it, then they are trash

@sharpfang

2 жыл бұрын

The algorithm for motion detection has a good bit of fairly complex DSP signal processing in it, to avoid false positives e.g. from clouds changing the lighting of the room, lights in other rooms spilling into the room creating splotches of light, shadows of trees moving in the wind, cars on the street visible through the window and so on. But after that piece of processing you have a binary output, motion / no motion, and then you can mask it out or accept it, this part is quite trivial and usually done by a completely different chip.

@Ruhrpottpatriot

2 жыл бұрын

The problem is not how to write good open source firmware. The problem is to write is in a small package that fits onto a lightswitch.

@ARandom1

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ruhrpottpatriot My Computer Science class on microprocessors was a bitch for this exact reason. Programming something with less than 100kb of ram, is a whole other ball game, compared to something running on a traditional computer. Creating efficient code is what makes things difficult.

@Ruhrpottpatriot

2 жыл бұрын

@@ARandom1 Exactly. Everybody and their grandma can write a nice face recognition algorithm with OpenCV, few can write the same on small IoT devices.

As a computer scientist I do a lot of prototyping, which also includes testing lots of hardware. Let me tell you, THIS IS NOT AN ISOLATED PROBLEM!!!!

@knightwolf3511

2 жыл бұрын

it's the same with the car industry, at lest tesla more mixed and is both car and computer. too many companies released products then they stop supporting it after 5 years then they sell a new product instead our maytag washer can only get updates through there subscription service. it's like there trying to make there stuff smarter but there not dedicated or don't care enough to go all the way to keep them updated and instead just keep selling products

@heinzerbrew

2 жыл бұрын

@@knightwolf3511 a subscription to fix the bugs they sold the product with. reminds me of my horrible experience with maytag 20 years ago, ended with a class action lawsuit.

I can understand them using that response if you'd asked for the source code to their firmware, but not the compiled binary ... that is insane.

@himaro101

2 жыл бұрын

What's the bet it's a zip file with some uncompiled scripts written in Python or something.

@propellergarage

2 жыл бұрын

@@himaro101 Then someone really needs to dump it and leak it

As a low voltage installer, it has always seemed like a big loss for end users or the home pro-sumer to not be able to access software or resources for the products installed in their homes. Installers have to be registered dealers of product brands like Lutron, Savant, ect. to get access ourselves to program the installed systems.

@nickwallette6201

2 жыл бұрын

The rationale of that kind of policy is a mix of good and bad and neutral but self-serving intentions. On one hand, products like this usually rely on a network of installers to make them useful to consumers. So, the company looks out for installers by requiring authentication to get access to resources like software and documentation. This ensure a revenue stream for trades workers, which is somewhat respectable, but blocks the ability for DIYers to ever do anything for themselves, which is unacceptable. OTOH, it also prevents dummies with no business holding a screwdriver from causing expensive support issues. (Assuming those dummies aren't licensed trades workers... which, unfortunately, sometimes is the case.) I do respect that trades workers deserve a living wage, and I see that a company would want to ensure users have a good experience with their products, and so would want only qualified installers to take on that work. So I can see the argument for ensuring that only qualified installers should get access to resources. But, at the same time, I feel like the end-user should have everything they need if they decide to take on that work themselves. Those two things conflict, and I think, ultimately, the best compromise is just to make resources public, and rely on a "find a recommended installer" system to help consumers (who are not DIYers) find a reputable and qualified shop to do the work.

@markluongo2854

2 жыл бұрын

As a smart home installer, i understand what you are saying. Yes as a home owner, we should be able to install and have access to everything for our home. And there are products that are available that give homeowners full access.. Unfortunately with the higher end systems, they do require training, and if the installers are not properly trained can absolutely ruin a home. Therefore leaving the homeowner having paid a lot of money for something that does not work as intended. Manufacturers protect their name brand and reputation from ensuring dealers are properly trained and can ensure customers receive a much better experience. Am i saying everyone is perfect, no… there can still be bad installers and I have seen many homes installed from bad techs. Unfortunately in the case with Linus’ install is he tried to use entry level lighting control that had he consulted with a professional would have been able to warn him to not go this route. The price point of going with a quality product would have been easily 10 fold. The other thing is that it is only available through dealers and not available through big box stores or on amazon.

@Oscar-if6lq

2 жыл бұрын

The reality, from a software engineer's perspective, is that homeowners will simply not spend the money to have the firmware on their light switches updated. The smart home products, within mere years, will be riddled with security vulnerabilities and CVEs. They will be hackers galore. Your light switches will be running botnets for hacking groups in Russia. Your blinds will get ransomware. These companies will be embarrassed in the news by these headlines, and hopefully this will spur them into action. In my view, IoT devices should be shipped with a method for secure automatic firmware updates, as they pose a danger to the security and operation of the wider internet when they are left with glaring security vulnerabilities. This is pure greed, but it is incredibly short sighted for the whole smart home industry. It only takes a dozen high publicity cases of hacking incidents against this category of devices before people reject them outright.

When my parents built our house the company building it pushed hard for Insteon. Three years later the app stopped working all together and parts were impossible to find. We later found out they closed up shop. It’s been a nightmare ever since because their light switch drivers go bad all the time which makes them impossible to use.

@jeremydale4548

4 ай бұрын

If a company closes up shop, they should be required by law to make their software or whatever open source PRECISELY because of this.

"this was my one shot, my one opportunity" *luke smiles* glad he got that reference

Thank you for uploading this! I was planning to buy 30 of these exact switches for an upcoming project. Will definitely be going with my backup option if I don't see any updates on this issue before I finalize the orders.

@davidpanic

2 жыл бұрын

Get some regular lightswitches and some esp8266 modules and put esphome on them, you can probably do what you want for a fraction of the price!

I love how Linus slowly drew it out just to showcase the sheer ridiculousness of the response.

Sounds like a typical home automation setup process. Almost going insane to make things a little more comfortable :D

@Drinkyoghurt

2 жыл бұрын

It’s a never ending endeavor. Once you get into smart home be prepared to tinker with it on at least a weekly basis. It has my life easier but first it made it much harder.

@anonony9081

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it seems smart home is only worth it if the home was built for it from the ground up

The biggest reasons why I haven’t upgraded anything in my house to “smart” devices is possible software update problems, platforms not being standardized, companies playing fast and loose with security, privacy, and support, and also the fact that there’s no actual need for it anywhere. Glad to see that I am justified by this. 🤣

@Drinkyoghurt

2 жыл бұрын

Not really though. This is more of an exception to the rule. You do have to research everything smart you buy but that’s not too big of a time sink. There are many standardized platforms and Home Assistant allows you to tie them all into one dashboard.

@knightwolf3511

2 жыл бұрын

i'm the same way also security issue if your not fully paying attention

@cheeseisgreat24

2 жыл бұрын

@@Drinkyoghurt It’s too big of a time sink if I have to learn about how the nuances of the systems work before I purchase the devices. There is also currently no industry standard that everyone adheres to, there are several competing standards, and the compatibility issues between the products and the standards is still too inconsistent to be user friendly. For example, I can’t just buy a “smart” device and hook it up to HomeKit, I have to first see if it supports HomeKit specifically, and if it doesn’t, I can’t purchase that device. Meanwhile, if I purchase a “dumb” device and plug it into my wall, the electricity makes it go. There’s no special electricity from a different provider I need to make it go. The buttons I push do what the device says they do. I didn’t need to delve into which voluntary communications standard it had to be compatible with before I bought it to see if it would work. Set up was half a second, I just plugged it in and it worked.

This shows again, that smart homes are a real timesaver. Never had to worry about a firmware update on my analog light switch😂

@greggv8

2 жыл бұрын

100% binary switches. Either on or off.

@paulelderson934

Жыл бұрын

Simple and reliable. But lacking a lot a features. Dimming, not having to worry about leaving lights on at night or when you're away, not getting up to control lighting, being able to turn on the lights with your hands full, etc.

@konrad3

Жыл бұрын

@@paulelderson934 True, but do you really need these features? I can say for myself that I'm fine without them. Remembering if lights are off trains mindfulness and walking to the nearest light switch gives you a few extra steps to your daily step target 😂

The 'obvious' solution may not be ripping firmware from one part to another. I design home automation devices for various clients/vendors and some of them specifically request to disable SPI/I2C interface using flag bits or by physically removing PCB traces. Sometimes embedded firmwares are encrypted in a way to work with each unit... using silicon specific TRNG and ECC, all in the name of DRM. Embedded product industry is hostile to the point that the choices they make in product design will feel dumb beyond anything.

@namAehT

2 жыл бұрын

I legit turned down a job at a company that was looking to create a smart ecosystem for landlords specifically because their products were SaaS. I'm not helping a company create a product that will die when the company does.

@Sandeepan

Жыл бұрын

@@namAehT I sell IPs and most of the staff I do is compatible with one open source protocal or another + vendor spoecific custom stack, and leave some debugging interface that can be repurposed to pour new soul to EoL products. When you live in 3rd world countries, vendor locking is rampant else nobody will survive, so it's virtually unavoidable

Every time they screen share I cannot help watching the two chats pointing two each other and jeering

Linus: im going to put this system in now so my house isnt out of date in 30 years. Me: better put an 8 track music system in every room and a betamax home theatre too!

@heinzerbrew

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah... How did he not see how stupid he sounded... and it turns out it was already out of date when he installed it🤣

Home Assistant CAN be a great thing, but... There is one HUGE piece of advice I would give to anyone thinking about setting it up: Once you get all your devices connected, and everything setup just the way you like it, DISABLE UPDATES!! I cannot tell you how many times I've had my home automation systems broken by updates to Home Assistant and it's components.

@tjeulink

2 жыл бұрын

That doesnt sound like a massive security risk at all!

@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932

2 жыл бұрын

That's all well and good until one of your devices needs an update to patch a security flaw that's making your entire home network vulnerable.

@h-6191

2 жыл бұрын

good luck with ur botnet

@tiredHooman

2 жыл бұрын

@@tjeulink unless it's connected to the internet it isn't a big one

@butterdubs2267

2 жыл бұрын

@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 why would you allow any of your smart device's access to the internet?

I use ZooZ wireless switches. They feel great, they're highly programmable, they work on Zwave Plus, no weird ecosystem or locked in BS, they look like standard wired switches, etc.

@Adroit1911

2 жыл бұрын

Do they still work manually when the network is down?

@giga-chicken

2 жыл бұрын

Well, not all of them look like standard switches. I use (almost exclusively) the zen 30 double switch because I wand to control my ceiling fans. It's understandable, you can't have an extra control and look like a standard switch. I don't think Zooz makes a motion sensing switch though. But I like their stuff in general, tough to beat.

@bluegizmo1983

2 жыл бұрын

@@Adroit1911 No, this switch requires your local Zwave network to be working or the switch won't do anything.

@bluegizmo1983

2 жыл бұрын

@@giga-chicken yeah that's true. I don't think they do motion sensing switches either. The ones I use are the Zen34 model though. They look just like regular switches

@Adroit1911

2 жыл бұрын

@@bluegizmo1983 ... 😞 Might have to just stick with the smart bulbs 😐

Sounds like a lot of steps to maybe or maybe not save some money in the long run. I was an early adopter of many "this will save you money over time" items that just ended up failing prematurely, didn't last, too expensive.

@crunch9876

2 жыл бұрын

Also he can adopt at anytime. Smart devices don’t require new wiring

@patrickshade3844

2 жыл бұрын

@@crunch9876 they do if your home was built before the 80s and hasn't been rewired since. Or if you want in wall Ethernet instead of whatever shoddy wiring you get from your ISP installer

@25566

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah just use those 10.000$ worth of switches plus the install fee and add more solar panels, that will pay for itself way better and you do not need to be mindful with AC usage when the sun is paying for it

@crunch9876

2 жыл бұрын

@@patrickshade3844 no….. his home was more recent than that so he doesn’t need new wiring….. also the date grounding was implemented I believe is 1975 his home is 20 years newer than that he has ground wire

@patrickshade3844

2 жыл бұрын

@@crunch9876 the problem isn't ground. It's the service panels. His house would've had a 100-200amp service panel, compared to 300-400amp dual panels in modern developments. Considering Linus himself and how much tech is going to be in the house, it's necessary. Especially if the entire house was getting ripped out anyway. But, fyi, the argument wasn't about Linus. It was a general argument against a general statement.

I'am so glad that there is a relatively new law in Germany (and i think EU in general) that demands from manufacturers to provide software updates for multiple years, depending on the product type. On average at least 5 years.

I'm firmly against active smart home devices (lights, garage doors, smart locks, etc.) but am fine with passive things (security, cameras, etc.). Having license agreements, firmware updates, and other tech problems between me and being able to live in my space is unacceptable. Home equipment needs to work over the span of decades and not be subject to the whims of agile and companies going out of business. When your CEO does approve firmware release, it'll be through authorized dealers channel when the figure out how to monetize licenses for updates.

@Peter-kn8py

2 жыл бұрын

Z-Wave is a standard that runs completely locally. The company going out of business doesn't matter since the device will continue to run. The issue here is the firmware they shipped is crap and they don't provide the new one. Other manufactures provide firmware updates or just ship a light switch without bugs.

@lgfs

2 жыл бұрын

"Active" Smart Home devices will ALWAYS work in a "dumb" way for decades, even if a new owner comes in and doesn't have a hub/home assistant. They '"just" won't be able to be used remotely (or their color temparature changed) or in group scenarios.

It's so strange having Luke basically staring down the lens of the camera. Makes me realize how little he actually looks at the camera instead of looking at his laptop and Linus.

@thedanyesful

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah agreed. He needs the eye contact set up from DIY Perks.

Draw fan art, hell no! How about anyone with one of these devices dump it's firmware and freely post it online just to spite the company!!

Can we take a moment to appreciate Home Assistant? They’re giving us full control over our devices and allowing us to combine many different devices from different manufacturers running different protocols all under one too, for FREE! Yeah, it has a learning curve but once you go that route it’s hard to go back to having 5 different hubs and apps for all your smart home stuff.

@luckyowl10

2 жыл бұрын

it's useless as long as your devices are buggy and the company doesn't want to give you the new firmware

@anlumo1

2 жыл бұрын

It's also one of the few home automation solutions that doesn't require you to phone home to some weird-ass server run by a company that might go down any minute.

@heinzerbrew

2 жыл бұрын

@@luckyowl10 Yeah, that's true about anything so what's your point?

@Drinkyoghurt

2 жыл бұрын

@@luckyowl10 That has nothing to do with Home Assistant tho.

Kind of reminds me how some GPS mapping devices (portable GPS, car navigation) require the map to be updated by paying a fee to the dealership/retailer/company.

@tristanholley7141

Жыл бұрын

I ran into this myself. I immediately found pirated copies of the maps.

I used Lutron dimmer switches in my house. It has the on / off on the bottom and a sliding dimmer. Nothing fancy, nice and simple. I love them. I had to rewire electrical in my house, previous owner didn't have the neutral wire connected to any of the switches. Unreal.

I love that you guys actually green-screened him to look as if he was there, never saw anyone do that

Yeah, GE/Jasco are a bunch of clowns. It's crazy. I have a ton of their switches (which are working thankfully), and it's insane that we can't get the updated firmware.

@earthtaurus5515

2 жыл бұрын

Hopefully, the switches you have don't start developing random faults....

@knightwolf3511

2 жыл бұрын

it's most of the none tech industry amd, evga, intel, basically all of them pushes updates companies that make fridges, washers, lightswitches, lights are a hit or miss then car manufactures are a no go but for tesla

Lol, that's weird that physical feel of the Lutron lights was the deal breaker :) I use Phillips hue bulbs in my lamps and Luton switches for rooms with wired fixtures...they're not perfect, no system is, but they're pretty darn good.

@Schmuly

2 жыл бұрын

It isn't weird though, you may just be used to them so don't really care about how they feel

The fact that Luke is not in the studio made me those "sci-fi overlord holographic meeting" vibes. That's how imagined the Metaverse was going to look like, lol.

@eeeeric1966

2 жыл бұрын

its not perfect... but it works! :)

They have actually fixed this. Feels good when a brand actually listens. They added firmware update on their support page

@jeremydale4548

4 ай бұрын

Honestly this does not redeem them in my eyes. It’s a step in the right direction, but they ALSO need to oust whoever was stupid enough to suggest not giving firmware to customers in the first place. Because that person/those people DO NOT belong in this industry

Soundcore helped me get an older firmware for one of my devices. I complained about the new firmware and they just gave me an older firmware. Really cool company

I’ve been looking at home automation stuff for a new build project. Control4, Lytton, Crestron etc. Loxone has turned out to be the best. User programmable, supports KNX, Modbus, Home Connect, Tesla Powerwall, LGChem, Solar integration, motion sensors with acoustic sensors built in so if you’re in a living room there’s an acoustic threshold that needs to be met before the motion sensor is allowed to turn off lights and now is fully HomeKit certified which allows everything on the Loxone system to be controlled via Siri.

Thanks for publishing this. I bought many of those after seeing your video. I loved that zwave doesn't conflict with WiFi. But my many identical jasc switches have many different firmware, and I can't get them all on the same firmware. Like you, I asked and was told no.

Presence detection can be done really well (although finicky to set up) by an esp32 and the bluetooth or other radio modules. It can track smartphones and their antennas. If you can pair this up with the motion sensing, then it could be darn perfect. Take for example the motion sensor initiating the presence in the room and using the esp32 for checking presence, or nearby presence, continuosly so that it wont turn off the lights while in the room.

Have you tried sonoff switches? You can install tasmota on it and use it with home assistant on a local network

I was already making the ole reach around joke and then lol'd when you said it a second later.

Currently a love and passion of mine to learn smart home automation and implementation. Have loved learning how Apple home-kit, Alexa and google home works. Went with the open source option of Home assistant just for more integrations and control. It is hard but getting a lot better. What your story have enforced my feeling as well is that nothing works perfectly out of the box. It is also very frustrating trying to find good automation solutions. Currently my experience with Shelly new products has been the best. Especially the smart breakers that work on Ethernet are fantastic and very reliable.

I am curious about the reaction from Jasco. They can add a download site on their website and get free promotions on LTT with the perfect target audience. Or they can get a lot of negative press. I hope they mess up and the second firm gets a chance to work with Linus.

Of course we have the "Matter" initiative just around the corner that should hopefully get us closer to a more interoperable smarthome that's not reliant on the cloud, does run force you to run multiple proprietary hubs that don't or can't talk to each other.

@Infigo96

2 жыл бұрын

Haha , have fun hoping. No for real. Matter will solve some things, but as the information I've seen, zwave, ZigBee, etc will have to go through a hub just the same. Thread also uses a hub technically but its included and disguised as a border router. And companies might either abandon their old zwave, ZigBee based products and only do new thread, or update their hub or devices to support matter (or thread on each device). So a unification will be better in some ways but not on low level, and will have to go through hubs with matter as a translation layer between the hubs. Some will not change at all and continue with their existing ZigBee, zwave to not kill their existing customers through confusion or abandonment. And some will just say, that is old, we won't support that, thread is the new all new products are based on.

LMAO the chat wars were awesome.

The difference in lighting between them really grinds my gears for some reason

I work with Lutron as part of my job, and even I agree that the switch style they've chosen for Caseta isn't great. They're called Pico switches and they're kinda ugly. Witch sticks because they have really nice switches like Maestro and Sunnata that they could have used for the Caseta system.

Executive: "they can't decompile our firmware if we don't release it! there's no way this could go wrong!"

13:03 the chats interactions were the best part of this video lol.

I think its catch 22 for a company to ship products with updated firmware. I do robotic maintenance, we've had laser welding equipment sent with newer firmware with out the company realizing it isn't compatible with our current laser generator. 36hrs of having tech support from Germany remote in, and sending a local support tech to install a newer data bus and software update it was finally fixed.

So basically they update the firmware (so they spend money on devs to do that) and they go like "yeah no we'll never provide the firmware because it's proprietary" and so everyone will just run an outdated firmware and they're just throwing money out of the window. I've never seen any better way to do stuff.

You can control Lutron lighting systems with any 232 device. You can legit use any programmable switch. Personally love Lutron. A lot of companies do this with firmware. You have to be a partner or licensed integrator to get the firmware. Alot of big AV control companies have this kind of policy. What you can probably do is find a licensed integrator for these devices and ask if they can provide you with the firmware.

@OrangeRAZ

2 жыл бұрын

Which lutron system, i believe he’s talking about the caseta line which has a wireless bridge?

@greg6029

2 жыл бұрын

@@OrangeRAZ probably would be for either Ra2, Ra3, Homeworks or one of the other higher end home systems from Lutron

My Lutron dimmer is nice. Center button and dimmer dial. Spin right and you ascend the lights, spin left and you reduce down to 1%. No hub required. The downside is I have the Aurora model, so it just sits on top of the normal toggler switch.

I have Loxone at home that controls the lighting, heating, access, security and general automation. It’s been running reliably for many years, constantly getting more features, completely customisable and the config software is available to anyone. The main thing is having an installation contractor that knows what they are doing. For $10k you could have had a proper automation system.

not only do we need "right to repair", we need "right to update" as well?!?!?!

@robot_madness3164

2 жыл бұрын

yes

@xerzy

2 жыл бұрын

Same thing if you ask me

So you contact them about an easily fixable issue and obviously they know about and have an update yet won't give it to you. Wtf, giving you only two options, dig the switch out of the wall take it back to them and have them patch it themselves? Or ask for a refund as the switch in its current state is unusable and or considered faulty!

Oh it is super nice to see they did add it. Seems like little buzz about topic can make company do smart decisions too.

Thanks for the heads up. The GE switches were a leader for me for my new home. Guess not anymore. Apparently there is a refresh of the Lutron caseta switches coming soon. Hopefully that fixes the rotten meat feeling.

You done done it now!

-Oh yeah we did ask for our devs to make patched firmware for the very device that you are using. -But we are not giving it. -9001IQ

Aruba has a similar issue. If you Virtual Controller has an EoL device. You can not update or add new devices to it,. Catch 22. EoL WAP or new WAPs but not both. To add the new WAPs to the Vc you have to have the updated VC which does not work with EoL WAPs. Predicting contact a certified installer or reseller.

I had a problem with the whole GE, Jasco situation. I bought 2 surge protector power strips to replace some old ones for my PC and my parents IMAC. The surge "protectors" were causing an overcurrent or something in both my PC and the IMAC causing peripherals (Mouse keyboard or anything plugged in via USB) to smell like burning electronics. After switching back to the old surge protectors the problem completely fixed itself. I am not sure what is going on with GE/Jasco products but I don't think I am going to be trusting them anytime soon, especially after hearing this.

Have Linus considered KNX association smart system? its more of an open smart system and has 100+ companies supporting it.

@anticat867

2 жыл бұрын

I was also screaming into my screen KNX - but perhaps it's a European thing and unknown to NA.

2 жыл бұрын

@@anticat867 its just an European thing.. Same goes with Dali and Casambi ... They also use Z-Wave insteadt of zigbee more commonly ...

You've seen enough sci-fi movies where full integration is a ploy to losing control.... (don't be part of that :) - Light switches are a simple circuit to the ceiling rose - Door locks are a simple mechanical thing - Heating systems are relatively simple relays/valves/pumps and boiler - Homes are where you live not investment opportunities... + build for what you want, not anyone else - including the next buyer None of that stuff needs automation or integrating so it all fails together. Go old school- be happy :) (Obviously to each his own - I just like my house being usable/simple)

@jbrou123

2 жыл бұрын

You have good points, but I disagree with "Homes are where you live not investment opportunities" Houses are almost a sure thing that will be worth more when you sell it than when you bought it.

All I can think about at 12:25 is "Dad! The chats are fighting again!" 😂

I had a really good experience installing Leviton Decora Wi-Fi switches in my last two homes. It’s been great to automate scenes like “toddler bedtime”.

I haven't had a single issue with my Lutrons. I've got several of them in my home, connections are great, automation is great. Yea, some of the switches are tactilely a bit soft but worth it for how well they work. Also, I had a surge in my home thanks to electrical company. I had half GE/Jason switches and half Lutrons when we bought the house. All of the GE ones blew. All of the Lutrons ones survived. That sold me on Lutrons.

The solution is probably connecting them to the proprietary ecosystem app they belong to in order to get the firmware.

@Peter-kn8py

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think the Jasco switches have a proprietary system. They're just Z-Wave devices.

@crunch9876

2 жыл бұрын

No cuz he said he has the hub

Ya, I've run into the same issue with one of those cheap USB to Ethernet print servers. There is a firmware update section but the company never made the firmware available. Oh, but newer versions of the hardware have newer firmware which ALSO have new features. But it gets BETTER, there is no hardware/firmware revision number on the packaging so there is no way to know what you're buying until you power it on.

I have tried the Jasco zway and zigbee outlets and switches. I have NEVER been able to zwave devices to work correctly. The zigbee ones have worked flawlessly. I am also using homeassistant also.

When it comes to smart home you always have to remember that no matter the system you set up is the question. Is it usable? Cause there is lot's of "smart"-systems but how smart do you want it? It can be as smart as you want but not as much so when your grandmother/non tech-savy comes to visit you she can use the system without thinking. It should always be a backup system that just works. If you sell a house with lots of smart tech, cool. But if it's too much and hard to get in to I would just take it all out and start over. A potential waste. Keep a smart system non smart also for everyone but you. Cause the chances is that just your family gonna use it

Hiding behind resellers/installers is a way to dodge responsibility and charge money out the wazoo. Hella anti-consumer.

I've been using X-10 Home Automation for over twenty years. This system uses the power-line as a carrier. It transmits data during the Zero-crossing of the sine-wave. Controllers are hand-held, key fob, or RS232. Add a Raspberry Pie and control things from your phone.

the house I moved into had Polybutylene pipes. It was in "good" shape when we moved in, which just means it wasn't leaking then, so we let it be for a little while. After a few months a leak appeared behind the drywall in my laundry room in the basement which is mostly unfinished, and after fixing that issue by replacing the pipe there with PEX we knew that it was just a matter of time before we'd have leaks in other places that were harder to get to and bit the bullet to replace it everywhere. They came in and poked some holes and replaced it all and then patched up the drywall.

The best all-rounder smart switch I invested in is TP-Link's Kasa stuff. inexpensive. NO HUB. works as a manual switch. Works with all the AI assistants. Easy to install.

@yedoom

2 жыл бұрын

I also use Kasa and it's incredibly good. The only possible issue is it all runs over your wifi network instead of ZigBee or one of those smart home specific mech networks. Usually this isn't an issue but I can picture cases where it wouldn't be ideal

@Googaliemoogalie

Жыл бұрын

@@yedoom What I do is have 2.4GHz on ONLY for smart devices, the TP-link light switches and Google Home and whatever, and 5Ghz is for important things. I haven't noticed anything when it comes to speed or reliability. I'm super happy with KASA

So it's meant to be paired with a hub, that delivers updates via that hub, but you've only connected it to HA. Just like Samsung with Android to phones, they control the timeline for updates at the 3rd party level. It's stupid you cannot update via HA using an unsupported method, but just like OTA and TUYA (ES32) devices, you're stuck sometimes without a 'hack'.

3:37 Linus is truly a man of the people

love how luke is there with linus

I thought they were going to say they charge per device per month

@psyko_chewbacca

2 жыл бұрын

I too was expecting he'd need a proprietary Jasco Z-Wave Hub and a cloud subscription plan!

@thekey1175

2 жыл бұрын

@@psyko_chewbacca only works on select energy grids

I love how when your Visiting Jasco, Twitch and Floatplane Chat are throwing hands XD

Mailman Pechkin from the old soivet cartoon "Three from Prostokvashino" had the same approach to parcels:)

LMAO Luke's smile at 5:40

I've yet to see a smart system that would bi compatible with all standards and devices and could be configured and operated offline. I'll pass.

@Eli-fj3sc

2 жыл бұрын

I think Thread could get there (it uses a combo of wifi and BT). The problem is every company wants end users to be stuck in their ecosystem. I really want to get into home automation but you're right there isn't a good solution as of yet.

I don't know if this is the same reason but I worked with mobile printers and barcode scanners as a developer (yeah that's even better) and I couldn't get my hand on the firmware either because they didn't allow end-user to have it. In some case partners could get it (which we were not). One possible reason could have been to avoid the low risk of breaking the device (like in the old day with bios update).

ooof! that didn't go the way I was expecting! I'd thought they would have come back and said "Yes we do have the firmware but.... you need to sign up for out support package of $### per device per year..."

If the product is under warranty, pack them and deliver them to the manufacturer with a complaint about non-upgradable software and claim compensation.

This made me wonder. With lights now being lower powered due to LED technology and everything being smart including switches and lights. Would it be possible to switch lighting circuits to low voltage by utilizing PoE (Power over Ethernet) protocols/technology?

@FloydBunsen

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, but it’s only really practical for offices

@FloydBunsen

2 жыл бұрын

There are even PoE ceiling fans

@25566

2 жыл бұрын

Look up how much a PoE switch costs, it makes zero sense to do that

@jpraleixo

2 жыл бұрын

ubiquiti has some poe office grid lights, it's really cool

I've got the more dumb motion sensing dimmer for my bathroom, let me say it's so good to have when you're not fully awake and it slowly turns on.

I only use the motion detection for the bathroom fans. Motion detection is really annoying on lights, and I found even if it saves a couple bucks to close off a bunch of rooms with the ac/heater it's annoying unless it's for guest room that rarely gets used, other than when I leave the house I just control those zones in my phone for when I have a friend or family staying in the guest room.

2040s? Linus on thinks he’s making it another 20 years? lol

@RVRocksOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

It’s all fun and games til he gets in the ring with Marques at Creator Clash 2

Adding "smart home" features to your house because you'll sell it in 30 years and think those features will be standard by then is stupid. All those features you're adding that you don't even want will be obsolete and worthless by the time you sell the house. You're not adding any value to the house if you don't care about the smart home features yourself.

@Timeward76

2 жыл бұрын

Its not exactly adding the features that he was talking about. What he meant was to add *support* for the features. In-wall wiring and everything else necessary so a potential future buyer will feel more attracted that they dont have to do it themselves.

@stilllife8

2 жыл бұрын

@@Timeward76 In 30 years we'll be past fiber optic and on some new bullshit and if they want the latest they'll have to do it themselves anyway. At the speed technology is moving it is inevitable.