If elemental bane gave vulnerability it MIGHT be worth it.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

That could be another consideration for sure.

@bskec2177

Ай бұрын

Change "immune" to "resistant", "resistant" to normal, and normal to "vulnerable".

1:02 “Relevant Element” sounds like an awesome rap group’s name.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Hahaha took me so long to say it without messing up :P

I’d love to see analysis of the way previous editions handled wildshape, things have changed a lot over the years. In pathfinder 1 it was straight up a spell you could cast and that Druids got for free, and the way it benefitted you was very modular and open-ended. Not to mention the way spell DCs and Caster Level and Metamagic all used to work. Interesting material going into 5.5!

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

That's a great suggestion! I really love digging into the history of the game and the games surrounding it so that can definitely be a really fun look too!

Voting for the spell history video! What baffles me is how few of these spells are Sorcerer spells. Elemental Bane and Phantasmal Killer both feel very fitting for sorcerers!

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I’ll start counting votes haha! Yeah it’s honestly wild. PK feels so fitting of Sorcerer to me too!

@Klaital1

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck Phantasmal Killer used to be save or die spell in earlier editions, if the target failed two saves they just dropped dead out of fear. It's one of the spells that got really nerfed hard in 5e as part of their campaign to remove save or die spells.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

@Klaital1 yeah I know! I mentioned it in the video when I talked about making spell history videos.

Grasping Vine is a joke. It really should be 2nd level, or if they want to keep it at 4th level it should be able to grab multiple creatures, or inflict restrained, or deal damage, or some combination!

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Exactly this. And honestly, even as written at 2nd level it still feels on the weak side haha. I get that there's other niche uses outside of combat but it's still just not worth it. Regardless of a potential use, if it's so bad that no one takes it, it isn't gonna do anything! Like you said, if it's going to stay at 4th level, like we know all spells will be once One D&D launches, it will need some significant tuning.

@tommihommi1

Ай бұрын

you can't even cast grasping vine on the ceiling of a cave or on the edge of a cliff to pull someone over, as it says you have to cast it on the ground.

@acahades

26 күн бұрын

@@InsightCheck Considering that Grasping Vine is a 4th level spell, as a Ranger, the majority of D&D games won't be played at a level where Rangers have access to this spell. The spell as written is just extremely bad for the cost! As a Druid... you have better options for your 4th level slots. Polymorph comes to mind 🤣

If you have a buddy who can cast spike growth, you could murder a creature with a poor dex save with grasping vine - 8d4 damage as they get dragged to the centre of the spike growth, they take another 8d4 damage as they escape, then the vine drags them back in. Could be a nice back-up option for monsters too strong to be grappled.

@RJWhitmore

Ай бұрын

The damage is an average of 20, plus whatever they take leaving (can be mitigated by jumping, scaling walls, climbing trees, etc.). Best use case is to pull a creature that has already Dashed most of the way through, or most of the way around, worst use case is helping the creature get extra movement by skipping 20ft of the Spike Growth with their own movement. Repeat use case is not likely - the creature can easilly Dash out of the 20ft of Difficult Terrain and then the 10ft of remaining terrain (only requires a base speed of 30ft with Dash, or 55ft without Dash, to get out of Spike Growth Grasping Vine range). A Ranger probably wants to remain Concentrating on Pass Without Trace, but if not then the Bonus Action cast does allow them to also take an Attack action - problem is the level 4 Spell means you are not doing this until level 13 minimum and the Ranger Spell DC isn't likely to be all that high against creatures at this CR+ so it may just be a complete waste (the problem with most single target Save or Suck spells). It would also use the Ranger's only 4th level Spell Slot at that level (and they don't quickly gain more of them with more levels, either). If you have nothing else to use your Spell Slots on and this is likely the last encounter of the day? But then the other caster probably isn't Concentrating on Spike Growth unless your party is focused around such strategies (like having a grappler with a lot of movement speed drag it along the edge of the Spike Growth, Repelling Blast Warlock, etc.). Well, maybe another Ranger would be. A Druid casting it is less punished by Level Requirement, Spell DC and Spell Slot availability, but has less impact with their Action if not casting a levelled Spell (which they can't on the first round, although can on subsequent if the creature hasn't Dashed out). However, the Druid almost certainly wants to Concentrate on something more impactful if a level 4 Spell Slot is warranted for the encounter. If the Spell Level was lower it might be a good use for a lower level Spell Slot in a less dire encounter, but alas. My recommendation would be to either drop Concentration so it combos with the caster's own Spike Growth (making it far less niche and potentially a good pickup for a Moon Druid focused on grappling creatures along the edge of Spike Growth), or drop the Spell Level to 2.

feels like most spells on this list are tools for the DM to flavor opponents

One thing the spell designers need to realise is that anything above 3rd level that targets only a single creature must have some kind of spectacular effect or AoE spells will easily overshadow it. It is sad how many 4th level concentration spells are just straight up worse than Hypnotic Pattern. Even if Hypnotic Pattern were changed to give a save at the end of every turn, it would still be better than most 4th level spells. Genuinely, a spell like Elemental Bane doesn't even need a save. It's basically a 4th level version of Hex.

A ruling on confusion that started from a dm not knowing the rules that well but that we kept because it was nice is that confusion doesn't offer a repeat save if enemies act normally or attack a creature hostile to them. For the record the spell is still quite bad. And if I were, say, designing 1dnd, I'd change the chart entirely to include acts that are significantly more useful to the players and that helps distinguish the spell from slow. You can even keep the chance for them to act normally if you give something as debilitating as the chance for them to act hostile towards their allies or damage themselves

The spell history video would be great. I am surprised that polymorph isn't on the list, it is one of the spells that you have to be mindful when GMing, there is the concentration part, but the benefit of 100+ hit points plus the high damage attacks of the forms is like fireball every turn with temporary hit points.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I did actually strongly consider adding Polymorph, at least as an honourable mention. I ended up not since the concentration does help keep it in check to a very large degree but, honestly, I can absolutely see a very valid argument for putting it on the list.

spell history ⬆️ , stoneskin was better in 2nd edition .

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I'm happy to see people interested in spell/feature history content. I really enjoy digging into the history of the game so this can make for a fun series!

I love Phantasmal Killer by the visual effects of it. "Kill" an enemy that is killed by his worst fear is sooo cool. But the spell is so weak. T_T

Confusion: Gains a lot of value LATER in the game. Hypnotic pattern and fear become much less useful since enemies become increasingly immune to frightened and charm. Generally you want slow instead, but for Bard and Druid, confusion is a solid pickup in late tier 2 / early tier 3 play. My issue is that players would pick up this spell thinking its a direct upgrade from Hpattern and it would be a feel bad moment. Anecdote: I can report from personal experience that players love confusion. Ive had a bard player just forgo HPattern bc he loved the shenanigans from confusion.

@KaelinGoff

Ай бұрын

To be clear, i have no issue with the 9 and 10 rolls, it decreases power, but is also thematically consistent. Casters already are going nuts at these lvls, and having a spell which spins the roulette wheel for effectiveness makes for a much more dynamic battlefield. Thematically coherent, not abusable, variety of usefulness at a wide range of levels, personally this seems fine. However I know the layered randomness really irks some players, and to them i would suggest to skip.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the issue is the 9/10 roll. To me it’s the save. The possibility of 9/10 undermines the save. It almost feels like they should just have the spell take effect and then roll each turn, skip the save if there’s a 20% chance for it to have been meaningless anyway haha. Yes that makes it better but then maybe extend the “do nothing” range to 8/-10? It’s a really fun spell, I really like Confusion.

@nadirku

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck as a compromise on the Confusion spell, could the 9-10 result be updated to something like "The creature can act and move normally, but automatically fails the saving throw to end the effects of this spell at the end of this turn"? So there would still be a chance to make a saving throw to end the spell on other turns, but on turns the spell has no effect the creature would have to do something like cast "dispel magic" to end the effect.

Changing Stoneskin to a Reaction that doesn't require consentration might make it worth it... It's cool in comics at least, haha.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

That’s actually a pretty fun idea. On demand resistance can be really good but it’s also 4th level.

@ryanhunter2042

Ай бұрын

Armor of Agathys upcast to level 4 is an action, adds 20 temp HP with the added benefit of hurting attackers, and doesn't require concentration, so Stoneskin shouldn't need it either, imo. Or make it more like Absorb Elements for physical damage types.

What I don't understand about Compulsion is that it is almost always objectively worse than the 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern. There are only certain niche situations where Hypnotic Pattern would be worse for controlling enemies and denying them actions. Compulsion still lets them use their action and even when Hypnotic Pattern fails against a few enemies, the enemies that succeeded on the save STILL have to use their actions to wake up their allies, making it a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Compulsion also lets those affected make a save at the end of every one of their turns. Outside of combat when you would want to forcibly move a large number of NPCs, you could achieve a similar effect with Hypnotic Pattern because you can still grapple, drag, carry, move etc. the hypnotized NPCs as long as you don't damage them.

Cole's Notes? Looks like we got another Canadian here.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I am! :)

My first exposure to grasping vine was through Critical Role where Keyleth used it all the time to save people as they were falling into a pit or lava or whatever and I thought it was a pretty useful spell. Then when i read it I was like, "what....?" They basically used it as a reaction spell to move people around, and it was actually pretty useful then, but still a 4th level spell for that is a lot.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I very vividly remember that moment too! But yeah 4th level for the effect is… too much..,

I think you are right with all of these. I also agree with you mentioning one of them being a good dm spell, in fact probably all of these are pretty good as dm spells. But still a trap if put in front of a player.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I think that’s an important thing to remember. So often people will just say “you’re wrong because they’re supposed to be DM spells”… but like… there’s nothing anywhere in the text that says that and they’re presented equally to players as they are to DMs so a player has just as much of an opportunity to pick them as a player does. I’ve always found that argument kind of silly but I do recognize potential merit.

Phantasmal killer was not very good in earlier edditions either. The enemy had to fail a will save and a fortitude save to die. Remember, there were only 3 types of saves (will, fort and reflex), so chances were your enemy was good at at least one of those two saves. So it had maybe like a 25 % chance of working. If you only used spells like that, you could easily have encounters where you did nothing. You would be like a fighter who had missed every single attack for the whole combat, but also expended resources. Compare it to a spell like solid fog, that just kept multiple enemies out of the combat for multiple turns, with no save.

Confusion is actually pretty good. The main utility being that it bypasses Charm/Frightened immunity that shuts down many more convenient control spells. There's a 80% chance the enemy straight up doesn't get to use its action, because this disables reactions regardless of roll, your allies can just hit and run for free. The problem with Grasping Vine is that it is a 4th level spell. There's a ton of great situational things it can do. Place it on a ceiling or behind a cliff to drop targets prone or to their doom, but also granting your allies some extra mobility (assuming they can willingly fail saves.) If this were 2nd level (or didn't eat concentration) it'd be so much better.

Upcasting confusion is better than represented. The area is 10 ft diameter sphere. You increase the RADIUS by 5ft, then you have a 20ft diameter sphere. you've moved from 2x2 grid, with a max of 4 medium creatures, to a 4x4 with a max of 16. Still unreliable, but changing the "act normally" so that's it's just a 10, instead of a 9 or a 10 would help - or just ditch the "Act normally all together. How frustrating can it be to cast a 4rth level spell, have the target fail their save, and the spell still has a 20% chance of doing nothing?

@brewdaly1873

Ай бұрын

I was gonna comment something similar. One thing though, the starting area itself is also a 10' radius, not diameter. So you begin with a 4x4 area, then move up to 6x6 and so on.

@bskec2177

Ай бұрын

@@brewdaly1873 oops. Good catch. It's really not that hard to get 3 or 4 creatures in a 4x4, and 6x6 you have to be more worried about hitting party members. Against a crowd, this is actually pretty decent.

Putting in a vote for video(s) about history of spells. Love the work!

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Thanks! First one is already up! Made a video about the history of the Wish spell!

Some of these spells have been nerfed from their earlier versions. Stoneskin used to completely stop one attack, and lasted until discharged. Every Wizard walked around with it up. No more risk of Backstab. See Baldur's Gate 2 for this implementation. We used to use Contingency with it - set to fire when the first Stoneskin went down. Phantasmal Killer was also a problem. It had a save to negate, which depended on intentionally making a disbelief check. If that was not attempted, or failed, the Killer got multiple attempts to hit the target. If successful the target was killed outright, no save. These killed outright things have been largely done away with in 5E, and Phantasmal Killer likewise kills using hit point damage. Confusion didn't allow repeated saves; affected creatures were affected for the duration. Again this is very powerful in the Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 games.

Cool to see I've already addressed these with my homebrew

SPELL HISTORY. YES

Confusion is much better than you are giving it credit for, it is a 10 feet RADIUS, that means it affects 4x4 squares usually hitting 2 or 3 creatures, upcasting it makes affect 6x6 squares. It is also not fear or charm, making it more reliable than Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. (With its' smaller area, and save to end the effect, Hypnotic pattern and fear are still better spells overall, but those two are also probably too powerful) The attacking makes each other makes it a beatiful spell to subtle cast whenever you spy on enemies. It is not the best 4th level spell, it is right in the middle of the pack, and not too weak at all.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

For clarity, like I mentioned, I’m not saying that the spell is bad. Confusion is a good spell with an Achilles heel. My “issue” with the design of the spell has nothing to do with whether it’s good or not it’s the 20% chance to not have any impact after a creature has already failed their saving throw. This just undermines the save. I would actually suggest to just remove the save, making it even better. Maybe if that happens the results are changed a bit to make 8-10 do nothing. The point, again, isn’t criticizing the power of the spell but evaluating the context of the design.

@peterrasmussen4428

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck You specifically call it unreliable, which I disagree with, because nothing is immune to this, unlike its' main competitors, Fear and Hypnotic Pattern. The way you talked about its' size, made it sound like you were thinking of a 2x2 area, in my games I expect a 4x4 area to hit 2-3 creatures, not "1 or maybe 2 creatures if you are lucky" as you say, but maybe you have big open areas. You say the attacking nearby creatures limits the functionality of the spell, but I would argue it adds an additional functionality. And of course you say "It requires your concentration, which prevents you from casting other much much more worthwile spells" I am sorry, but that is saying the spell is bad. If perhaps only indirectly. I feel like my comment mostly addressed your pain points on the spell. Including what I percieved as a painpoint that the spell wasn't powerful enough to warrant the cost of 4th level slot and concentration. It is true, the chance to act normally is a feelbad, and it would probably be a better designed spell withouth that. That being said, I don't think you want to remove the save, for a few reasons, first, it should be easier to confuse ogres than mindflayers, second, defenses against magic are all worded with saves in mind, magic resistance, legendary resistance, the bless spell etc., I don't think this spell should bypass all that. Also, I just want to say, cool channel, I really like your content. I hope I don't come across as overly negative here, I just actually feel like confusion is one of the better designed control spells, because it isn't so powerful it overshadows other options, like I feel like web, hypnotic pattern and fear do.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

@peterrasmussen4428 you’re good :) I have no problems having civil discussions with people that are interested in that, of which you seem like such a person. Further clarity, I would never assert that I am “right” about anything here, I just like to discuss things. Anyway, sure, maybe I came across more negatively than I intended to. The spell is good, the effect is powerful. I’m in full agreement. What you bring up about immunity to Fear and Charmed is a fair point and was something I considered (and should have stated) but those are things that happen *before* the save, not after. So while the end result may be functionally the same: the creature isn’t affected by the spell. Having them actually fail and then still have nothing happen is a much bigger design miss in my eyes.

I think removing the saving throw from Elemental Bane would make the spell worth it (and maybe lower the damage). That would basically make it a party-wide Hex For Phantasmal Killer, my group has suggested to simply remove the last line of the spell where if the target succeeds on a subse save, the spell ends

I've seen confusion used to great success. Also sure 20% chance to not impede turn, but it still keeps them from taking reactions. Good for allies to move out of reach, so if they do roll to wildly swing, you aint there. :)

Good points well made

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Thank you!

Stoneskin is such a let down compared to its 3.5e version. It used to offer damage reduction that scaled to your level as a caster (from memory it was like 15points of damage and capped at 150). It was basically the simplest and most reliable way to beef up your castors and stop them from being focused down by martials in 1 turn; unless they were against someone they really shouldn’t have pissed off or they had adamantine weapons.

Subscribing hoping for spell history! What a unique niche. Like Dungeon Dad but for spells that'd be so cool!

@InsightCheck

29 күн бұрын

Much appreciated! First one is already up and is about Wish! I’ve got a lot more coming though :)

Elemental bane should not require concentration

The only mechanical difference between blade ward and stone skin is that blade ward specifiys it must be from weapons(although not non-magical funnily enough). How many sources of non-weapon non-magical bludgeoning piecing or slashing damage do yall know bc I cant think of anything. Oh also Blade Ward is a cantrip and doesnt rwquire Concetration(granted its only one turn but its a cantrip so you can just spam it as long as you have an Action free)

ב"ה Confusion is actually a decent spell. There are no immunities to the condition it inflict, and it is pretty disabaling. Once, when an enemy spellcaster cast it on the party it ended up in a TPK.

I may have to check out the "spellcasting rules are dumb" video, because I keep thinking that spellcasters are nerfed because they can only have one cool thing going on at a time, what with concentration.

Phantasmal killer one of the nerfed spells we returned 5th edition books as soon as we got them. I've killed bbegs at crucial moments in 3.5 with that spell. Also hold person was a tide changer in life and death battles.

Elemental Bane would be better if it was a Hex-alike... And probably lower level... Like, maybe, 3 😝 No save. Lasts an hour. Bonus Action to cast and Reapply. Increases all damage of the type by 1d6. Still strips Resistance.

If Stone Skin didn’t require concentration it’d be a really solid spell.

@brewdaly1873

Ай бұрын

The material cost needs to go away too.

Stoneskin can be worth it to cast on an ally, but not yourself

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

I don’t really see the problem with who you’re casting it on. Yeah it’s probably better if cast on someone else but the possibility of immediately losing concentration and burning your diamond dust is brutal no matter who you’re casting it on.

Stoneskin should not require concentration

I wonder what you think of the Infesture Spells

A 20' circle isn't small

I disagree with your contention that Stoneskin makes no sense. First of all, 100 gp is not unmanageable at 7th level unless the DM is very stingy with treasure and magic. With only 3 attunement slots, a party will quickly find magic items that no one wants and sell them. Second, I keep hearing detractors of this spell stating that by the time you get this spell, the important foes have magic attacks. Important foes like dragons? Or giants? There are PLENTY of hard-hitting monsters even through tier 4 levels of play that do normal damage. And the fact that it no longer has a maximum number of hit points it can be thought of as an upgrade. I'm not saying it is the best 4th level spell (that would be Dimension Door followed by Banishment), but it can be very effective.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

The issues I present in the design of Stoneskin aren’t related to whether it’s good or not. There is value in the spell. There are two core things I mentioned: the material component is both expensive AND consumed, and secondly that it requires concentration AND consumes the component. These two things are massive detriments to the spell. I have no doubt that you can accumulate hundreds or thousands of gold by mid tier play. Being able to obtain that in diamond dust is another potential question. But in any case, even if you do have it, you’re either going to be burning through it at an incredibly rapid rate or saving it for battles that don’t require it since they’re dealing elemental or magical damage. As I mentioned in the video, many many creatures have been updated to deal magical damage from 2022 and onward. The other thing, again, as I mentioned is the fact that you can drop concentration immediately from damage and you’ve burned your diamond dust for nothing. The fact that there are exactly two spells in the entire game, one of which makes you completely immune to all damage, shows how questionable of an idea it is and how the team heavily overvalued the mitigation of damage. My entire point is that the spell should be better lol. Not that it’s “bad”. The effect is fine, but its implementation is challenging.

Who really uses spell components anymore? I know in our game we use just a spell focus and that's it. No components

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

When there is a gold cost associated, as written, a focus does not suffice. Most people that I’ve discussed this with do do this. Now obviously that’s just as written and you can do whatever you want at your table.

@2099Spartan

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck very true, the only time we used gold cost is when it's a special spell. Like to raise the dead or remove a curse but in the regular course of combat or regular daily spells we we've decided not to use any components and just to focus. Otherwise we feel like spellcasters would have to have a wagon with them at all times for spell components

Elemental Bane is so bad, most of the time, 1st level Hex is better.

I will have to hard disagree with you about Confusion. It's one of the best crowd control spells in the game. There is couple things you didn't realize in your analysis, first, Confusion, unlike most other control spells, is not either a charm or fear effect, which means that NOTHING is straight up immune to it, second, it makes the targets not able to use their reactions, which means that your allies can just not end their turns right next to it to never have to worry about being randomly attacked by it. For third, unlike many other crowd control spells it does not break from damage.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Again, it’s not about whether the spell is “good” or not. The effect can be extremely potent. The issue isn’t what the spell does. The issue is that the target can fail their save and still have a 20% chance to not be affected by the spell. It undermines the save. They could just get rid of the save, in arguing to make it even better :P. I’ve been in a position where I’ve cast Confusion, the creature fails, and the next turn they roll a 10 and I’m just sitting there going “what was the point of the save?” Sure, they get deprived of their reaction. But concentration and a 4th level slot to just deprive a reaction is another a trade worth making.

@Klaital1

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck Your thinking of it as single target effect, it is an area effect, and can affect large number of creatures, especially when upcast, extra five feet might not sound like much, but when it's extra 5 feet radius, it is actually quite substantial increase to the overall area the spell covers, which only gets increasingly potent the more it is upcast due to how radiuses work. It's 25 squares with the basic level of casting, and then upcasting it one level, adds 24 more squares, essentially doubling the affected area. Also, seeing it as 20% chance they still get to act is quite negative way, I prefer to view it as 80% chance they do nothing, or better from my point of view, and I can't think of too many other area control spells that give you that good deal, while also not restricting you in attacking them in any way.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

Once again lol, I'm not talking about how good or not the spell is. I agree, the spell is powerful, the effect is good. That's not what I'm talking about. Remove the "quality" of the spell from the equation and take a step back. The design team set the benchmark for being affected by a spell at failing the associated saving throw or being hit by the associated spell attack. You should be able to expect that if your target fails their save, that they will suffer the effects of the spell but this is not the case with Confusion. It's not a question of perspective. Whether you choose to view it as 80% of the time they are affected or 20% of the time they aren't, the underlying reality is that there is still some proportion of the time where a creature fails their save and doesn't suffer the full effects of the spell and that undermines the purpose of the save and is counter intuitive, hence why I'm talking about it as a design miss and not saying that the spell is "bad" or "unplayable". Confusion is a good spell. I like the spell. It's fun and thematic and has high power potential. That doesn't simultaneously mean that there isn't an inherent design flaw within. I'll refer you to the disclaimer at the beginning of the video :P.

Just to sell more bloat.

@InsightCheck

Ай бұрын

In fairness, every spell on this list is from 2014 so they weren't added on to sell any bloat.

@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115

Ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck Got it. Thank you for the aclaration.

I'd argue Confusion isn't the spell with the problem and its the other crowd control spells being too powerful.

It really seems that 5e mechanics are the problem with these spells. Play better games.