Death, taxes, and seeing you after the jump.

@Paul_van_Doleweerd

Жыл бұрын

One of these videos, the jump should be Bookborn actually jumping... 😄

To quote Wit, “The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon.”

@Colaman112

Жыл бұрын

Such blatant propaganda!

@jer-bearzy

Жыл бұрын

@@Colaman112 as is all language

I've been an atheist for decades. When I first started reading Sanderson I didn't know how religious he is. When I found out his religious beliefs I kept reading and listened to his podcast. I've never felt preached to in any of the content he releases. He is my favorite author and I never fear that I'm going to be preached to in his future content.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I think his religion definitely influences things he writes about but I totally agree that it's not to preach, it's just a natural intersection of who he is bleeding into his works!

@jenniferm.2142

Жыл бұрын

Yep this. I think you hit the nail on the head. Propaganda tends to feel preachy. That’s different from just having a point of view.

@seanmalloy0528

Жыл бұрын

Ever read Tolkien's work?

@TheCosmerenaut1

11 ай бұрын

Same

@SoteksChunkyProphet-dg7io

5 ай бұрын

You grew up in a judeo-christian world, your entire moral systems are judeo-christian. Your basis of thinking is Judeo-Christian, even the english language is heavily influeced by christian latin. Ironically the atheist critiques of christianity are the extension of the Christian virtue that you should seek truth and understanding.

I think we underestimated critical thinking skills of children and over estimate at critical thinking skills of adults 😂😂😂 such a beautiful statement

@emilyreads5207

Жыл бұрын

That was a good one

@Scotty-BK

Жыл бұрын

That was one of my favorite lines from this video, as well.

@rogerhuggettjr.7675

Жыл бұрын

I didn't join the sect the writer of Wrinkle In Time was apart of after my 4th grade teacher read it to us as kids in the 70's. If a Hugo winner didn't have the skills to convert me I don't know who could.

@thing_under_the_stairs

2 ай бұрын

It's just so true! My 13 yr old niece has better critical thinking skills than far too many adults that I've met!

This is so true, I read Mistborn and now I joined the Church of the Survivor and worship Fortnite Kelsier every morning (This is not too far off from what some people believe will actually happen if children read some of these books)

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

CHURCH OF THE SURVIVOR FOR EVER (proud member)

@atlasmonologues

Жыл бұрын

How garish! We Pathians are clearly more sophisticated.

@jaginaiaelectrizs6341

Жыл бұрын

I mean.. to be fair...some people, especially younger people, truly _can_ become quite enthusiastically obsessed with the things that catch their interest and/or sometimes even blur the lines quite a bit between knowing something is fictitious versus literally believing in it actually being out there somewhere. But I don't think that's typically so much the fault of the works they avidly adore as it's usually more to do with the fact that a lot of people don't talk to their kids enough and sort of just leave kids to their own devices, a bit like tossing a kid into the water and just seeing if they manage to swim on their own without any previous lessons or not; Or else people do talk to them, but they more just try to dictate everything precisely for their children without ever letting the children actually do anything or work anything out on their own, a bit like taking a child into the water and then always holding that child too close to ever properly teach them how to swim nor ever let them even attempt trying to swim on their own just with their parents arms as a safety-net beneath them. Because they don't realize that using the human brain[ or introducing things to the brain so that it can attempt to use them] helps the brain develop &/or develop the ability to use these things, much like how a baby using their legs or being allowed the opportunity to attempt to use their legs actually helps the babies' legs develop and/or helps the baby's ability to use their legs to develop. Things don't simply develop to a certain point, and then some switch is magically flipped, where people are suddenly or instantaneously able to do things perfectly that they weren't able to do before-the development of the ability to do things must be progressed gradually, in some way or another, from not doing it to actually doing &/or perfecting it. Growth, in general, must always be properly fed/fueled-or else it tends to waste away and fails to thrive. I think, maybe, most people who feel such extreme fear of the possibility of propaganda they don't agree with manipulating their or their children's minds are actually people who are more afraid of being unable to manipulate minds in the ways they want to be able to-even if, sometimes, unconsciously so. But maybe that's just me and my own misperceptions, idk.

@rogerhuggettjr.7675

Жыл бұрын

I'm a conservative Christian and loved Mistborn and saw nothing of Mormonism in the serries. I'm looking forward to reading it again, but getting through 30+ Shanarra books and being only 8 into Wheel of Time since reading it 5 years ago takes time for a slow, contemplative reader. I think finishing Wheel will be a good Sanderson lead-in. Can't wait to take on the greater Cosmere.

@rogerhuggettjr.7675

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Did Starship Troopers make you want to enlist and become a Citizen? lol

My new mantra is: "What if instead of being afraid, we just talked about it." It should be on tee-shirts and bumper stickers. Another knockout. Thanks for doing what you do!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! It's a new thing I'm coming to learn more and more, and parenting is something that has taught me it like no other. Even stupid things like "when your kids are afraid of getting a shot, talk to them about it". I've been shocked how just being open and honest has cut down meltdowns about "scary" things - and it's amazing how it applies to philosophical things too!

@rogerhuggettjr.7675

Жыл бұрын

Be careful. Free thought during June is frowned upon in certain communities.

@Macheako

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookbornso you conned your kids into getting the shot? 😂❤ I’m sorry, “openly discussed”

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

@@Macheako I mean childhood vaccines are pretty normal lmao and it was the opposite of conned - it was "hey we are getting a shot and here's why and that might be nervewracking". I am absolutely pro-science on this channel :)

That Tolkien quote is super interesting! People often cite another quote by Tolkien about how he disliked allegory as “proof” that The Lord of the Rings is completely non-religious. While the story isn’t allegorical, his Catholic faith and military background definitely had an influence on his writing, whether that was intentional or not.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I've totally read that allegory quote! It's hard sometimes to parse what's allegory and what's not; but it's clear that LOTR has a lot of religion in it, but it is NOT allegorical in the way that Narnia is, where there's a literal one-to-one correlation with religion and religious figures

@thejustinwestra

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Exactly! Non-allegorical does not mean non-religious. Both Narnia and LoTR are religious, but the approach is very different. Narnia is much more overt and like you said, 1:1. LoTR, to me at least, is more so just inspired by Tolkien’s faith and includes some religious themes/symbolism/etc. while not being preachy. Thanks for the video and the reply!

@04nbod

Жыл бұрын

Tolkien used a lot of analogy and people confuse it for allegory. Elendil is not Noah but he is like Noah.

@MinieAnne

3 ай бұрын

Well Christianisme is already inspired by other religion.

By far the best Booktube channel. Your video essays are so incredible.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Thank you 🥹

Way I see it, most art is a form of self expression and for many creators their religious beliefs or lack thereof are deeply apart of them and will come through at some level in their work. Not everyone has an agenda. Most are just expressing themselves and their human experience

@rivendells_shona

Жыл бұрын

Yep. And working through ideas (be it relational, philosophical, etc) as they create their stories. I suspect that if an author tried to consciously separate/avoid their worldview in their storytelling, it would feel forced and artificial.

Brandon Sanderson is my god, after all

@samm8190

Жыл бұрын

He is, actually!!

@JoelAdamson

Жыл бұрын

Good one 😂

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

We were too hard on that Wired article, huh 🤪

@IndiaTides

Жыл бұрын

At least he is real.😀😀😀

@jenniferm.2142

Жыл бұрын

😂

Yes, yes, yes - great video! If we aren't open to hearing about other people's worldviews, even if they might disagree with our own, we are limiting ourselves and our potential to grow. If your worldview is so intolerant of other world views that you can't even allow for a discussion of them, I think that is a bigger problem.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

And also you may just not know what you believe until you have a chance to fully explore it!

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding what we consider to be propaganda is defined by if we agree with the viewpoint or not

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

But then what do you do with that? Do you live peacefully next to the group whose propaganda seeks to dehumanize you as a person? And is it really propaganda to teach people to treat everybody fairly and with respect? And not in the fake religious way of saying it and not doing it. Is teaching respect for the whole human population propaganda? And if you think it is what other viewpoint do you hold?

@thing_under_the_stairs

2 ай бұрын

@@user-wm2sz8eg7h I think that we can all agree that any propaganda that espouses hate is something to know how to recognise, avoid, and absolutely hold against its creator(s). I am not American, but in my country we do have fairly robust laws against hate speech that eliminate some of that problem, but some still gets through, and it's vile.

I’d say what makes it very hard to classify art as propaganda is that it’s art. It’s not invading your life. You picked up the book and asked to be entertained with an idea, a story, a theme. Even if you don’t like the idea, you’re just getting what you asked for.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Yes, and I think that's where the important part of "institutional" comes in. We are choosing to engage in art - it's not something that's being thrown or forced at us at every angle, like perhaps a government or religious institution could do.

@TheKnoxvicious

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Then stop using propaganda.

@rogerhuggettjr.7675

Жыл бұрын

It can only be propaganda if it's required reading and issued with intent.

@jackmcclish

Жыл бұрын

@@rogerhuggettjr.7675 if you mean required reading in school, than I suppose so. Depends on how it’s taught. If they’re teaching you properly, to entertain the idea without accepting it automatically, than it’s fine. If you mean required reading on a govt. level, than yeah, that’s kinda hard to argue with.

Every author brings a world view into their writing. The question is whether it is implicit or explicit. Another question is how many readers even recognize it is happening. :)

I think it is important, religious or not, to read things that challenge us. It will only further affirm your faith or lack of it. It is interesting too when you have authors, such as Sanderson, who are openly religious and they themselves write religions and faiths that are presented in both positive and negative lights (Hrathen being a great example), and having atheist characters who are viewed as highly respected and intelligent. Good books, regardless of the religious “narrative” force us to ask questions, increase our knowledge on particular subjects (including religion). This is only a good thing! Critical thinking as you said, it is the best way to grow and learn.

This was so much fun to work on with you! Thanks for having me on, always a blast to be on the channel.

@unrulysimian3897

Жыл бұрын

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

So glad I discovered your channel today. Videos like this one are so different than the rest of the content I have come across. Looking forward to watching a lot more of your content.

That was an excellent video. I had much the same opinion that you guys reached in your conclusion, but it's always good to get it explored and think about the subject a little more in depth.

100% agree with you on this. As parents we need to actively engage with our children about literature. I have always believed the best way to shut down ideas that you don't agree with is to shine a light on them. when we hide or trash ideas by trying to shut down conversations we only tend to extend the reach of those ideas.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

absolutely! By shedding light on a lot of different ideas and talking about them, it's less likely they'll hold weight and excitement as "forbidden topics"

Using art as a springboard for discussion? Appreciating the individual life experience that an artist brings to their work? Yes! Yes! Loved this video! If we cannot tackle the biggest questions that dwell in our collective subconscious, such as what lies behind the veil of the physical world without that work being judged as propaganda it is a sad time.

This video is excellent! I agree with everything you said. I enjoyed both Narnia and His Dark Materials. I never felt that I was being preached to or the authors were trying to convert me into their way of thinking. They were enjoyable stories built on different worldviews, and that’s okay!

Fantastic video Bookborn! So well balanced and thought out. This is a subject often on my mind as I read and write. As an author, just acknowledging our world-view exists and influences us can allow us to ensure those beliefs dont "fan-fic" their way into our prose, and we can even intentionally struggle with the themes we're still working through ourselves. Thank you again!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I think it's natural to put in your thoughts and struggles while you write! It's a feature, not a bug, as Kyle would say!

@AndrewDMth

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn absolutely!

This is a great topic, and one that I haven't seen too many booktubers touch upon, so great job!!! This is just one of the reasons why I love your channel! I was born with the gift of overlooking the influences of what I read. Basically, I really couldn't care less. Whatever contents a book has, I not only shrug off the influence and weave that into the story and take it all with a grain of salt, because that is all it really is... a story. I have my own beliefs and thoughts, and I am vehemently adhered to them.

Really well thought out and well spoken you two.

Awesome video! I am so glad you tackled this topic. As a kid, I was heavily censored from reading/watching certain things, specifically Harry Potter since my parents believed that it was propaganda for the occult and Wicca. I believe now that was an over exaggeration from my parents. This topic is near and dear as a renewed reader. As a new parent, I would love to hear a video specifically about content for kids and what you have learned with introducing books to your kids.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I've been thinking about doing a kid-book centered video for a while but am not sure if people would be interested! I've learned so much about teaching kids to read/helping them become lovers of reading and it's been a fun thing to explore. I come from a very religious family and everyone always assumed I couldn't read Harry Potter and my parents were always like "have you met our daughter, she has them memorized" 🤣

@cytbeth

Жыл бұрын

My siblings and I were also dissuaded from reading Harry Potter but not because they were viewed as propaganda. My parenta thought they would UNINTENTIONALLY "normalize" the thing they viewed as evil, specifically sorcery, occult behavior, etc. Nowadays, I do something similar with my young kids by not saturating them with nasty or rude main characters. A few are fine, but I'd rather them not saturate their reading time with lying, stealing, or hurting others. As they get older, that threshold will grow. On a seperate note, I read the first three HP books later and (uncultured swine that I am) couldn't stand Harry's complete disregard of rules so I never finished them.

@MinieAnne

3 ай бұрын

​@cytbeth kids now how to make the difference with fiction and reality I read all kind of characters and I didn't become like them 🤣 Also some characters start a certain way and then they have a characters developments arch. I think child see all kind of character and not living in a bubble where everyone is happy and nice. That's why fiction is for.

Great discussion. I agree with you regarding talking with my kids as they read certain things. My mom prevented me from reading certain books, and that just increased my desire to read them when I got older.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I mean, that's it, right? Didn't Hermione teach us in book 5 that banning something only ensures everyone wants to see what it is 🤪

@AKJRees

Жыл бұрын

I delayed my kids from reading Game of Thrones until adulthood. Now we can talk about all the adult topics at an appropriate time.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

@@AKJRees I think this is different than banning! Saying “this content isn’t appropriate right now” is very different than outright refusing. I certainly protect my kids from adult themes!

I find the phrase “hidden curricula” to be a better way to describe this kind of thing. It encompasses both purposeful and accidental versions.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Oooh I have never heard this phrase before and I immediately love it

@donaldpratt2296

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn I have to source it to a long time games journalist named Troy Goodfellow.

This was an incredibly insightful video and exactly the type of content I love. Well done to both of you.

I really like how Lois McMaster Bujold weaves the religion into her works. I just finished Curse of Chalion and it was one of the best standalone novels I've ever read.

@AndrewDMth

Жыл бұрын

I agree!! Not enough BookTubers are reading Bujold’s Five Gods Series

I actually haven't seen the word propaganda being used much against fantasy works, but everything you talked about here sounds eerily similar to the challenges public libraries are facing right now. I've been saying for a while that I don't get why people are so afraid of ideas. I love your deep dives on these topics!

We’ll done for having the courage to tackle the topic and again for doing it so well!

I love these deep dives! Your content is so original on booktube

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching 🙏

Great work both of you! Completely on point!

Thank you for a nuanced and well-researched video about a topic that is often very polarizing. Well done! :)

Thank you for this cogent analysis. One thing I prioritize with my daughter, especially amidst today’s proliferation of online dis- and misinformation is to read/consume everything through a critical thinking lens. She sometimes asks my views on certain religious, historical or political topics that she reads or hears about and while I do give her my opinions, I also encourage her to intelligently formulate her own. I will sometimes pose questions to her designed to more deeply reflect on an issue, especially if I get a sense that she is being unduly influenced by popular trends or shallowly presented arguments. She has a strong sense of social justice and so these discussions tend to be quite lively and productive.

Nice job on this topic! Great video.

Great video as always! To get a bit more serious, I'm almost finished Mistborn trilogy and in no way to do I feel 'converted.' Though I have thought more deeply about religions and faith in general it hasn't converted me one way or the other. I could argue that the books are less an argument for religious, and more an argument against that high depressive nihilism that affects us at some point in life and we have to learn how to get past it to find joy and meaning in life again - even if nothing matters. EEAAO has a nihilistic central theme, and yet optimism, goodness, hope, and acceptance are the film's main goal. I find the same to be true with Mistborn. I don't see the books as 'trying to convert me to any religion' but more trying to help the reading find hope and trust in themselves, the people around them, and goodness on the whole. But then, most books are this way hah If a book 'converts' someone, I think that says more about the person and their relationship to that book than it does the book itself. Some books deeply affect us and change it (is this conversion?) and do nothing to other readers; while other books can deeply impact other readers and are just a fun story to us. As always, this stuff is subjective and anyone trying to ban a book or prevent others from reading it are likely more afraid of what books will do to THEM, than what they'll do to others.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

YES! I absolutely agree that books change us. Good books almost always do. I've definitely had fantasy that changed my views on things; and I'm SURE there are people out there who perhaps rethought their relationship to religion because of Philip Pullman or CS Lewis. I just don't think that's a bad thing! Books can help us explore ourselves and how we view the world. I don't think it's insidious propaganda - it's an author showing their viewpoint and allowing us to accept it or reject it. Imagine how boring it would be if books only reaffirmed what we already knew and never allowed us to expand.

@6ixpoint5ive

Жыл бұрын

​@@Bookborn Agreed!

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

Nihilism isnt the word you are looking for there, and the optimism, goodness, and hope is specifically given by a martyr figure who dies trying to relieve suffering in the world. The religiosity isn't being applied by readers to the text, that religious intent is in the text. And no one's talking about banning books but even if a readers experience is subjective it doesn't take away the way a book frames itself. There are right and wrong ways to interpret things that are supported in text and its more than clear that Brandon shoehorns his own religious theory and dogma into the plot in a way as to distance it from Mormon teachings but which align with them nonetheless. The insistence that anything dark in fantasy is nihilism and any wholesome or cozy fantasy is specifically aimed at pushing back against some encroaching nihilism is part of the reason why the fantasy community is being dragged down by "bless your heart" "oh sweetie" conservatives who front progressive social values while erasing true representation and settling for the type of escapism that does nothing but comfort their fragility.

@6ixpoint5ive

Жыл бұрын

Haha sorry, I wasn't saying that any dark fantasy is Nihilistic. My apologies if it came across that way! Rather, I my comment was specifically referencing Sazed's arc in Book 3, which is absolutely one of a nihilistic path, believing that nothing matters and seeking flaws to prove it to himself. Other characters show signs of nihilism such as Breeze, albeit in a more fun light-hearted light (he sees everything as pointless beyond money), and to a lesser extend Zan and Vin in book 2 grapple with the concept as they learn to find belief and faith in others. I'd even say Elend comes in contact with Nihilism for a brief moment in book 3 when he's about to give up before the mist-spirit shows up to him. So yes, I would say Nihilism is prevalent in the arcs of several mistborn characters; though I also don't think Sanderson wrote a book specifically trying to talk about this - at least that is my interpretation of the text. Just quickly, in terms of 'right or wrong ways of interpreting a text,' I think you are somewhat correct, however I also believe there are multiple theories by which a text can be analyzed that expands beyond simply 'right or wrong.' For example, one can judge any given text by feminist theory, queer theory, afro-centrism, communist theory, class/caste theory, Ayn Rand theory, religious theory, political theory, environmentalist theory, and so on and so on. All are technically correct depending on the reader, their interpretation and understanding of that text, and their ability to state their argument for or against each theory. Lindsay Ellis has a great series at looking at the Transformers films from multiple angles; are any of them right or wrong? No, just different perspectives to view a story. Now, how much you take any serious will be up to your own interpretation - such is all art - but it is certainly a way to enjoy the themes of art should you so desire. (With the understanding that it is also okay to not engage with these theories and just enjoy the story for the pure surface level-enjoyment of it as well!) I'm not entirely sure where you're going with your second paragaph there, but I hope you find the meaning you are searching for one day!

@laurelkeeper

Жыл бұрын

@@6ixpoint5ive it's pretty clear the poster you're replying to has some very deep animosity towards religion and towards authors who include it in their work, judging from their other comments. It's far from my place to comment on whether it's justified or not, but it definitely appears to be leading them to bring their arguments around to "and here is why X group of people is evil and bad and wrong".

I love these deep dives, and collaborations with other content creators

I wish this was longer and had also covered the drama with the HP series and religious drama there. Also, more indepth clarification on what the word allegory means.. especially when it’s misused when dealing with Lewis’ Narnia.

Exposure to ideas is so important, this is one of the reasons why I read. I believe seeing the world from other perspectives and trying to understand them helps us all build our compassion for one another and the attempted repression of ideas not only breeds ignorance but is ineffective as ideas will continue to spread potentially unchecked and unchallenged. The ability to grasp new ideas and ideas that contradict what we know (or what we think we know) and form arguments for and against these help us consolidate our understanding of our world

Great presentation of the concept.

Happy reading to you! 😊

This is very interesting, well made! 👍

Both of your analysis was pretty fair. I liked it

I just watched a booktube video from someone I've never watched before, Books and Bao, and they talked about the religiosity of Sanderson and how they decided to finally try The Final Empire last month. Worth a watch.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ok how can I not find this video lol do you know the title? I'm super interested in watching it but when I went to their channel I couldn't find it scrolling, and I searched "Sanderson" and it didn't seem to come up...

@lollymac1

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn It might be the May 2023 wrap up.

I was raised without religion, in New Zealand. Not anti-religion, but just that religion was never mentioned. I read the Narnia books as a child (they are books aimed at children after all). I loved them and they were the books that started my love of fantasy. At no time did I recognise the religious allegory within or feel a desire to convert to Christianity. I never felt preached to. Aslan was a big majestic magical lion to me, not a representation of Jesus.

Thank you for the deep dive into this topic. A little modification of the background under white text would make it easier to read 😊

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I am not happy at all how that ended up porting - it looked thicker on my editing screen. I know it's probably an accessibility nightmare, so I won't be using the combo again in the future 😭

A great video as usual, I think the issue is the current negative connotation of the word propaganda. So I wonder if an even more subtle discussion would be to substitute the word propaganda with proselytize. I would humbly suggest that all the authors you discussed, to a certain extent, are proselytizing (honestly most other authors are doing this as well). Both Sanderson and to a large extend Orson Scott Card weave religious themes and the true human struggles into their works (heck OSC even reinterprets religious writings into some of his books such as his series Women of Genesis). I personally like how they do that (and I suppose other people do not?) I'd like to humbly suggest a topic for another video. What does your 'favorite author' tell us about you? Does having Sanderson/Orson Scott Card as a favorite author mean something? What about if Pullman/Doug Adams are favs?

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

That topic sucks. Its so uninformative as to be insulting. And what do you mean when you say true human struggles? Are the struggles of human existence not true if they aren't portrayed through a religious lens? Also you know OSC is a bigot right? Sanderson too?

@jaginaiaelectrizs6341

Жыл бұрын

You make a fair point, and I agree that the modern connotations that currently the most typically associated with the word are a definite issue in many people's hang-ups when discussing such topics. But isn't there also a difference between simply weaving certain themse into their works versus actually deliberating to try and use the way those themes are woven into their works to try and influence, manipulate, force, or coerce the actual beliefs of their readers? And maybe this is just my own misperception here, but I'm not so sure that "proselytizing" would be a good replacement for "propaganda", because I think "proselytize" also currently carries connotations that are too specifically religious and not all propaganda is specifically religious? Probably the best way to discuss it, I think, is just to discuss it without trying to encompass it all down into just one word-sometimes it is better to use more words, to try and fully flesh or specify/clarify exactly what you're saying, rather than to lean too heavily upon quick shorthand or keywords and expediency alone. But maybe that's just me. 🙂

Loved His Dark Materials so much that I bought the Folio editions

Very elegantly handled, as usual, and I appreciate the discussion. Totally agree. Given Sanderson's personal faith, I've always been a little surprised by how much characters in the Cosmere question and criticize organized religion. I think it speaks to his nuance as a writer and a person, and I've never really felt 'preached' to.

Phew this was a deep one, great stuff!!! Totally agree that in general we need to chill out when it comes to "propaganda" Especially when we live in time where some places in the world deal with real propaganda's most sinister aspects.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

This is something I wish I had stated more explicitly based on the comments on this video. I am not saying propaganda doesn't exist - it absolutely does, and can be EXTREMELY harmful, especially when it dehumanizes (I mean, I put the more squeaky clean propaganda for WWII in this video - the US propaganda and how it displayed Japanese people was legit horrible). Which is why it's so much more annoying when people mis-appropriately use the word for fiction novels that, while they absolutely represent various viewpoints, do not harm like real propaganda spread in governments or schools, etc.

@joshuabean846

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Nowhere in video did you even imply propaganda doesn't exist. (Funny you mention the propaganda about the Japanese, when you mentioned WW2 and propaganda my mind went to the really old Superman cartoons...sheesh!) There's got to be a better way to express that someone disagrees or doesn't like a work, other than using terms like propaganda completely out of context. That's kind of the point I got from this which I whole heartedly agree with!

Fundamentally, while the purpose of propaganda is to manipulate people into feeling a certain way about something, so is art. For many, like you say, people's reaction comes down to their own viewpoints going in. And if, as a parent, the idea of your children's ideas being influenced by books or media in ways you don't like worries you, maybe actually look at what you're giving your children, don't give them things you find age inappropriate, and discuss the issues brought up in these works with them. My parents saw us watch cartoons starring "bad influences" plenty of times, but it was made very clear to us that this was just TV and that us behaving like this could be harmful or hurtful to not just other people, but in how people would view or treat us as a result. They didn't need to ban us from watching it, or insist the network pull it. It's why when it comes to past controversial media that companies want to distance themselves from, I fall far more into the camp of disclaimers rather than cutting bits out. The latter is just mutilating a work to maintain reputation, the former allows the work to remain as intended while also saying "here is the message that this media is trying to push, and we as a company no longer agree with this and here is why...".

I was afraid I wouldn't like this video but am pleasantly surprised. These authors are amazing artists that take you to another world that we need more of!

I read and reviewed The Sirens of Titan recently by Kurt Vonnegut and it talked a lot about how it's important for a human to "be used." The words propaganda and manipulation have gotten so dirty, but it's a base part of life to be influenced and to influence. The tricky part is being able to effectively process it all

Great video. I feel like this is a good topic to explore

Ok I totally agree with the video, but the title and thumbnail felt a little too clickbaity, maybe not ironic enough lol

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

While I agree with you, I have unfortunately found that on KZread any of my video essays with reasonable titles do poorly, while the same videos with inflammatory titles do well. I am forced to play the game 🤷‍♀️

once again an excellent video! thanks for the level and well reasoned approach! I dont know if you know of Yuri Bezmenov, he is an ex KGB guy who spilled the beans on how the Russians manipulated America in different ways. there are videos on YT with interviews of him. anyway, i know yall were mostly talking about religious propaganda but i am wondering if you have seen or read anything in recent years that fall more into the social/political propaganda?

C.S. Lewis disputed Narnia was a purposeful allegory. He wrote, "Some people seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument; then collected information about child-psychology and decided what age-group I’d write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out ‘allegories’ to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn’t write in that way at all. Everything began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn’t even anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord."

Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. As my father said, "Eyes see and ears hear what the mind knows". If someone were to become interested in a religion because of a piece of art it inspired, good on them. If someone were to convert to a religion because of a piece of art it inspired, good on them. I don't think a piece of art, even if it is written with the sole intent of converting people (which may or may not be the case), causes the same reaction in every individual. Take me for example, LOTR is my favourite fantasy series of all time. Undoubtedly inspired and influenced by catholic thought and themes. Yet, I'm a devout Hindu.

@spencercorpuz

Жыл бұрын

Ooh that's a good quote from dad. I'm stealing that haha

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

What if someone read the Turner Diaries and became a religious extremist? Religious conversion is insidious and functionally the same as cult indoctrination.

@jaginaiaelectrizs6341

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's only bad if people are forced to pick it up[ or tricked into it under deliberately false or misleading pretenses] rather than merely having the option to pick it up or not at their own discretion, and that applies not just to the book hoping to convert people but to the actual conversion[ or not] itself of people after reading it.

@krishbohra5536

Жыл бұрын

@@spencercorpuz Thanks buddy

@krishbohra5536

Жыл бұрын

@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Yeah, the circumstances before, during and after the reading of the book definitely matter a lot

There is also the fact that Tolkien was so well read. He was raised by a priest. There are references to Catholicism plain as day that people don't realise are Catholic. Why is Middle Earth structured as the First Age, The Second Age, The Third Age, The Fourth age? Because that is what St Augustine wrote. Its also that most people aren't well read on Tolkien either. The Athrabeth is explicitly Catholic. Its all about Original Sin and Salvation. The Laws and Customs of the Eldar is Catholic social policy, divorce is bad, sex before marriage is bad. He writes Elves as unfallen humans. In a lot of ways, the ultimate examples of a Catholic life.

An interviewer asked Dean Koontz if he deliberately used Catholic themes in his books. His answer was that he doesn’t see how anyone can avoid having their most deeply held beliefs and values show up in their writing.

This was a very well thought out and put together video. Whether the reader is religious or not, we should be able to consume books without calling everything propaganda that we don’t agree with. I also never thought I would see Albert Mohler quoted on BookTube. Ha

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I’m impressed you watched closely enough to see his quote 🤣

@geauxreadbooks

Жыл бұрын

😂

@geauxreadbooks

Жыл бұрын

I guess being a pastor, his name stood out to me… 😂

Here‘s a thought: Fantasy literature always necessitates a particularly blatant expression of an author‘s beliefs and values because, by ignoring established cultures and creating a new world out of whole cloth, they have to fill it with something, and what else could that something be but their own beliefs and values? In any case, I read and enjoyed The Hobbit, the Narnia books, and Madeleine L‘Engle as a child and didn‘t notice that they were presenting a clearly Christian worldview until I was an adult. But I did notice that these books were about *something* and weren‘t just random brain excretions, which is more than I can say about a lot of other fantasy books. As long as a work isn‘t obviously didactic, I see no problem in it presenting an angle on reality, which, I suppose, is the whole point of fiction in the first place.

Good video, and I think both of you are right, and that it's not fair to refer to any of the books mentioned as "propaganda." But it might have clarified matters if you had given some examples of books that ARE definitely propaganda. It might be hard to find examples, though, since books written strictly to proselytize tend not to be the ones that lots of people know and love. Would the "Left Behind" books count? Would Ayn Rand's novels? (In each case, I haven't read them so can't judge for myself.)

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I cut out a part that I felt wasn't quite relevant, but I did see a facebook ad for kids books that are literally advertised as propaganda for capitalism. SO WEIRD. Those books, though, like you mentioned, tend to not really make it off the ground because they usually aren't interesting or insightful. It would be a good second part to this video though to see if any made it through - I can't think of many off the top of my head.

@Steve_Stowers

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Now that you mention it, I've seen ads like that too. And yes, they do look like good examples of blatant propaganda.

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

When you force the argument to a place of "okay, lets only look at the obvious propaganda" your are burying your head in the sand on purpose to avoid looking at the fact that propaganda isn't obvious and good propagandists will hide their message so that any argument over whether a work is dangerous or not will have to filter through the majority of people who will not see past distractions.

@jaginaiaelectrizs6341

Жыл бұрын

I don't think that fiction which intentionally tries to influence people's beliefs or such is necessarily always or automatically bad... I think the real question is whether or not the person creating that fiction believes it is acceptable to force others into those beliefs or to punish others simply for having different beliefs or to knowingly try and trick others into thinking/believing things especially which the person doing the tricking doesn't even genuinely believe to be right or true themselves. But maybe that's just me.

You’re my favourite booktuber Hillary/Bookborn❤🎉 more power to you 💪 I follow you around all over KZread

It definitely feels like people are faster to label something as propaganda if they personally don't agree with the message it sends, even when the material with messages that the do agree with can equally be considered propaganda.

Storm light Archives is steeeeeeped in Gnostic concepts of divinity.

I am deeply offended by this video's blatant propaganda in support of 'reasonable thinking' and 'charitable dialogue.' (JK obviously, thanks for being such a great voice in the community!!)

A bit late to this party, but Terry Goodkind is an example of an author employing non-relogious propaganda especially in some of the later books in the Sword of Truth series.

Never felt these books trying to convert me at all

This is a very interesting topic. I was thinking about it as well this week when I went on a live stream and saw a question raised about "christian propaganda". I understood the question but there was something about it that came off so loaded. I have been considering how I would respond to that. This video touched on it well.

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

Its not loaded at all to point out that Christianity's profound influence over the western fantasy genre has been overwhelming and detrimental.

@DanExploresBooks

Жыл бұрын

@@user-wm2sz8eg7h That is an opinion. I am speaking to the question itself. It is absolutely a loaded question by nature. It shows the persons bias by its nature. Not saying it is wrong for somebody to have it. But it is not very nuanced. That it has been detrimental, again, is an opinion that is fine to have, but it just that and often thrown out as fact. A lot of people would certainly disagree that it has had a detrimental impact. Calling all things that has christian leanings "propaganda" is the thing I am talking about. But of course an author with Christian leanings will be influenced in how he or she writes. Their values will be a part of the work. I just wouldn't call that "propaganda". I find that to be lacking nuance.

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

@@DanExploresBooks I find the insistence that media with religious under/overtones don't by their very nature attempt to police and influence morality and ethics a sign of major cognitive dissonance. No one would call a piece of fiction that adheres to the theory of gravity propaganda because gravity is not a belief. Religion is always about faith and belief and any media that is run through not just with moral or ethical teachings but tying those teachings to a larger point about the universe's ethical and moral cosmology is inherently propagandistic. It is attempting the reformat the understanding of the universe away from empirical reality by asking the the reader to understand the religious aspects as fundamental principles of the universe. And its not loaded to say that 1) Christianity's effect on the western fantasy genre has been overwhelming and 2) that its ubiquity has been detrimental to the evolution of the genre in the way that traditional Christian themes archetypes and structures are not only seen as fundamental but that other elements are antithesis to the genre.

@laurelkeeper

Жыл бұрын

@@DanExploresBooks yeah, I generally agree. I think for something to be "propaganda", it has to be created with the primary and exclusive goal of convincing the viewer to adopt a specific ideology. Having a worldview and deciding to write in accordance with that worldview isn't propaganda.

A quick note/nitpick/nuance on your example use of Captain America is that he was actually created BEFORE the American entrance into WWII. This might seem like a small oversight but it's important to remember that the attitude of most American's at the time was non-interventionist AND that he was created by two Jewish American men, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon. The war in Europe to many was a distant war that didn't concern them. But to Jewish Americans, who knew of the ghettoization of the Jews under Hitler's regime, (maybe not to the full extent), the matter was more personal. It also underplays how radical at the time it was to take a disabled character, transform him into Hitler's wet dream, only to have him fight as a warrior for the oppressed. Kirby received death threats from the American Nazi Party for his work. So to say that his purpose was to "drum up support for the newly joined war" is both inaccurate and a bit reductive, although that is what he became. I think it's important to understand that this was just the creation of two cartoonists in New York and not funded in anyway by the government. By the time Pearl Harbor happened Jack Kirby had already left the book and was working on other characters.

great unique content!

You left out in your case study Goodkind's books - Sword of Truth got SOO repetitively preachy in an anti-religious/pro-humanist fashion. It wasn't just worldview permeating a work; his characters became his soap-box. @Bookborn are there any fantasy books/series that you do think are propoganda-ish? And yes, I understand and agree, that to really be 'propoganda' it probably has to be more like an institution trying to influence a whole population... but that doesn't mean that certain books aren't very overt in trying to change people's opinions/ideas about a particular topic. It's kind of like the difference between subtle advertising (that is trying to sell you a product) and when a salesman comes to your door and won't leave/repeatedly tries to hard-sell you something!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I actually mention him briefly in text on screen 🤣 I said I remembered good kind after and that he’s often talked about in political propaganda contexts. I do think books can be overt in their own opinions but I still don’t think it’s propaganda because it’s still within your power to read it or not. And, I find those overt books, rarely tend to be good. In fact I have a companion video idea to this where there has been a huge loss of subtlety in SFF that I’ve read recently. I don’t view it as propaganda but I do view it as bad writing 🤣😭

The definition of propaganda is simple, it is never called propaganda when you do it (because of course you are definitely correct), it is propaganda when your enemies do it.

I should start reading Tolstoy's "War and Peace".

Excellent topic for discussion, especially nowadays. I would say that the word manipulate should be the most important point of argument, it should help us distinguish between the influence and sharing of one's opinions and someone's attempt to trick us into believing something for the wrong motives. I say wrong because I'm not worried about being convinced into changing my mind, whether I would call the medium propaganda or not. We should worry about things that present ideologies or faiths in a way that we are tricked into them, though a biased view that hides itself as unquestionable truth. I never heard anyone consider 1984 worrying propaganda, but it fits the bill as much and His Dark Materials, only it's about purely political regimes and not religious regimes. Opinions, views, ideas, perspectives are not propaganda, they are dialogue, they are discussion, they are what makes us social humans, as long as they are honestly presented.

I am mormon and until reading multple of Sanderson's books had no idea he was mormon. I think sometimes we become very biased when we learn different things about authors. Are there themes that touch on beliefs held within my church, yes but they are no different than traditionally held beliefs and discussions on the morals of a person and can one be redeemed and the place of religious institutions within a society. Sometimes we try so hard to force something into a box and expect it to have this alternate agenda that is negative just because the author sees the world slightly different than we see it. A good nonreligious example is JK Rowling and the controversy of personally held beliefs about gender. Valid or not, i did not find Her books to explore these themes but for some they hate the book because they believe it supports those ideas even though in all my rereads of the series I never saw the theme explored. I guess ultimately we have to be aware of if we super impose our bias to the art created and see what may or may not be there while realizing that it is not realistic to ask someone to go against their morals to create media and art that is nuetral. Thats not art, thats sterile AI generated.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

ok I think this all the time. Before you know, you often can't tell any of those ideologies. After you know, I think sometimes people try to force it in when it's not really there. Even works that we think are "extremely obvious" and are MEANT to be that way - think Narnia- SO MANY kids who read those books have no idea!

@Theblondebass1

Жыл бұрын

@Bookborn I was an adult before I found out/realized that Aslan was symbolically Christ. No idea at all. I find myself savy but sometimes it doesn't matter how obvious it is. I honestly try to learn as little as possible about authors because if they morally or politically funny align with my values I do struggle reading them. Same with movies. Brandon sanderson I think if the only one I follow because he just gives off dude enjoying life with his buddies vibes lol he doesn't tend to get into controversy

I mean i know sanderson is a mormon, but ive never thought it showed in his writing. Especially not compared to something like chronicles of narnia or golden compass.

Definition 1 is really the only one applicable to works of fiction. And even that is fairly thin except when authors come right out and say what their alterior motive was such as Pullman. Legendarium had a very interesting discussion recently on the theology of Tolkein. While religion is a popular topic to discuss, I would also add social commentary like Animal Farm on the dangers of communism or just change mutants to a minority or homosexual in XMen for the dangers of discrimination. Regarding 'Its good for the kids', I also find it incredibly ironic, and very amusing, that a lot of the push for book banning is often based on conservative religious fundamentalism has resulted in the Bible getting pulled from the shelves due its incredibly violent and sexual content.

This is about a bitish person looking at something. They're going to prop a gander at said thing.

I’m a former Mormon and love Sanderson for his goodness, ability to tell a wonderful story and for saving my dear The Wheel of Time! If only he could save the TV Series…. When I read the Stormlight Archives, and especially Jasnah’s POV I could have sworn that Sanderson was having a faith crisis in that he made the case through Jasnah as to why someone would fall OUT of belief in God. I wish I could show you my books as they are marked up like my former scriptures with Jasnah’s wonderful arguments for NOT believing in a supreme being. If Sandersons’s works are to be judged as “propaganda,” then in fairness I would make the argument for him trying to convince his dear readers out of belief in a God, as much if not MORE than towards a God, and especially the Mormon God. Now Card is in a whole different world. But to state an obvious theme here: Mormonism is one of the best fantasies ever, so no wonder their are a high percentage of Mormon Fantasy authors as compared to the general population - including one of the best - BRANDON the one true and living God! Love you Brother Sanderson! 🙇🏼🙇🏼🙇🏼❤

3rd grade, late 1950s, I commented on something about another religion that I had read. My mother calmly asked what I believed. I thought about it and said “not that.” Lesson learned.

This is an interesting topic, it's great to see you discuss it! I'm a Jew, and my dad read Narnia to me when I was a child. I've read it myself later, and I don't think it influenced me to believe Christian ideas - but it kind of helps me understand them. Similarly, I've read and loved His Dark Materials, and while Pullman is definitely pushing his opinions there, it's not necessarily anti-religious propaganda - though I've encountered a Christian KZread channel call it Satanist. Either way, even if you don't define those books as propaganda, there's still a gap between them and Lord of the Rings, IMO. Personally, I don't think it's bad to present your views in a work of fiction because they'll come through; your worldview inherently shapes how you write. I also kind of want for there to be more Fantasy books written from a Jewish perspective, as I think current Fantasy lacks in that area.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Supposedly Pullman himself has stated that he views his works as atheist propaganda and he wants it that way, which I think is pretty funny (but I'd agree that it doesn't feel that way to me when I read them). It does seem that when books deal with religious topics then tend to deal with Christianity or anti-christianity, specifically, although hopefully as fantasy continues to expand and represent more people you'll get to see some more Jewish-influenced fantasy!

@francescocarlini7613

Жыл бұрын

​@@Bookborn Pullmann' attack is actually on Jewish scriptures, including apocryphal ones (the Book of Enoch), Christianity in HDM is not separate from Judaism.

@נעם-קליין

Жыл бұрын

@@francescocarlini7613 Well, perhaps you are right. But: a. The Book of Enoch isn't that much part of Jewish scripture, and b. I have plenty of reasons to not consider those attacks against Judaism - it's all much more about abusing authority. Now, obviously, Pullman wouldn't consider Judaism any better than Christianity in that respect. The fact is tha Authority's stronghold is a mountain - probably suppposed to remind the reader of Mount Sinai. Personally, I prefer a headcanon that the Authority hacked Christianity late in time. But while Judaism itself, with all it's writings and scholarship, isn't really referred to in the book, it's obvious that Pullman meant for the Authority to stand in for the G-d of the Old Testament (Jesus isn't mentioned even once, after all). Long story short: I try to navigate between my headcanon and the likely possibility Pullman didn't really study Judaism, and the author's obvious intentions. I'm at least partially in denial.

@francescocarlini7613

Жыл бұрын

@@נעם-קליין Interesting. The Authority is also Pullman's version of the god Urizen from William Blake's mythology. The Book of Urizen is Blake's anti-Genesis much like His Dark Materials is the anti-Narnia. Urizen is the Demiurge, the god of evil that created the material universe and enslaved mankind with wicked systems of rules and the corrupt institutions of religion and marriage. The one moment in human history where Urizen is manifested most clearly is the revelation of the Mosaic Law. By contrast, Blake is living in a time of Satanic rebellion against the powers of Urizen; the revolutionary fire that started in the American colonies and spread to Europe. One of Blake's most famous paintings shows Urizen creating the world using a golden compass.

@נעם-קליין

Жыл бұрын

@@francescocarlini7613 Huh. Didn't know that - also surprised no mention of the apostles declaring there was no need in keeping the Mosaic Law was made. Also, I thought that the Golden Compass was from Paradise Lost. Maybe Blake was inspired by it, too. (Didn't read Paradise Lost or any of Blake's poems yet... Kind of embarrased in that.)

I think Sanderson's personal beliefs and his conservatism is really noticable in his books. Sometimes it hinders the stories a bit, but I've never felt that he wanted to convert me. In his later works (and especially in Stormlight) I feel he does a conscious effort to hide it more.

Well done.

While I think that Tolkien and CS Lewis should be viewed through the lens of their time and would have been normal for religious beliefs or themes to seep through their works, I don't view them as preachy. Ayn Rand and L Ron Hubbard on the other hand would be the poster children for preachy fantasy works.

Authors being influenced by their world's conceptions is a given, and whether religion, gender, nationalities... It is what makes the richness of literature! And as a French reader, I'm happy to read from authors who are not like me. French fantasy is not written in the same way as American fantasy for instance (we have a strong emphasis on revolutions while Americans often use a civil war as a device... that's just one very small example ^^) and reading American authors does not make me less of a French gal 😂 applying the same to religion and here you go : propaganda argument is just absurd!

even when i agree with a view point i sometimes feel like its propaganda if it feels like they are not allowing you to contemplate the other side of the argument. I like works that don't just serve you the opinion they want you to hold, but allow you to think about why other people might think the other way. While i can think of things that i think of as black and white, i think the most interesting topics are in shades of grey.

So, C.S Lewis did write plenty of other material direct arguments for Christianity and various philosophical and moral stances. One can argue that it’s possible to see some of those ideas in Narnia. I don’t know whether there is specific evidence to whether he was trying to use Narnia to propagate religious ideas. Well it’s obvious that he did a little bit but it’s debatable whether it should be called propaganda or not. My guess is that if we call works like Narnia propaganda it should be clarified that it’s probably not effective enough to be very harmful or a game changing tool for good (depending on what opinions you have about Christianity). Maybe it could be, I could definitely change my mind about that. But given my current views, I could be fine with calling it light propaganda but I’m not that bothered by it. As long as books aren’t strongly manipulative, reading works with a mix of ideas is probably a decent way to start interacting with different perspectives anyway.

As someone who reads a lot of old but not-necessarily-highly-regarded-or-famous fiction, I have to say even propaganda can be historically interesting. Sometimes you just recognise it when it starts to take over the story. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't read it or talk about it. I read the Chronicles of Narnia as a small child and somehow didn't even pick up on the very heavy Christian allegory. It was justa cool story about some kids and magic and dragons and witches and a big fatherly lion. Now, I can see the Christianity all over Lewis's work and it has spoiled it for me just a bit, but i still find him interesting. Tolkien was more conscious about trying to avoid heavy allegories in his books -- so much so that I thought some of the chagnes made in the films were a bit contradictory to what I think Tolkien would have wished, especially in Two Towers were there seems to be quite a bit of WWII-referencing.

C.S. Lewis also wrote a sci-fi trilogy heavy with Christian beliefs.

Lord of the Rings feels pretty clearly religious to me. The story revolves around doing something that is highly unlikely to work (taking the ring to mount doom) after which everyone involved in planning this thing was just sort of hoping for a miracle. No seriously, it's outright stated that people cannot bring themselves to try to destroy the ring. In the movie Gimli just fails to destroy it by smashing it, but in the book he and everyone present fails to even try. What was the plan when Frodo got to Mount Doom, unlikely as that was to succeed? The plan was for providence to make something happen, and it did. In addition, Frodo spares Gollum, not because he feels vague pity (again, the movie changes this) but because he feels it's not meant to go that way, Gandalf (an angel) would not want it, and he still has a part to play. Frodo has faith, yes that kind of faith, that somehow his sacrifice will work, and that somehow, for some reason, Gollum should be spared. If the main characters faith being key to their character and succes isn't enough for you, the background lore is even more religious. Men die, while elves have immortality in this world, but the death of men is a gift, wink wink. The world is created by God and a choir of angels. Evil is brought to the world by a fallen angel called Melkor, the most powerful of Gods servants, a clear parallel to the devil. Melkor falls because he wishes the power of God for himself. Orcs must be corrupted elves because only God can create life, while evil forces can only corrupt what is good and are ultimately impotent and sterile. Then there's the Jesus imagery of both Frodo and more obviously Gandalf being granted a second shot at physical life after a huge sacrifice. You might be able to dismiss individual elements of this, but it all rather adds up especially because we know Tolkien thought of his work as religious.

Yeah storytelling is inherently political. It has been since like the beginning

People are very quick to dismiss something when they find a *gasp* agenda or theme. That's been incredibly common for i can't even begin to say how long. In fact I'd argue the reverse is the more recent development when you get into the modern and postmodern. It is annoying though, when the artistic endeavor takes a backseat, or simply isn't up to snuff. The heavier the message the lighter the touch is needed, even when i agree with the intent. I'm always saying, nuance, nuance, nuance. I think religion presents such a common focus of this topic because it's one of the few areas where the debate is less empirical in nature. When it's less about facts and more about beliefs, well that's just ripe for propaganda. And it works! People are so unaware of our biases and the decisions we make. Everyone except me, that is, i would NEVER fall for propaganda 🧐 In closing, Ayn Rand is bad.

No religious references in LOTR, yet JRR Tolkien was deeply religious. God bless him for creating a beautiful novel.

More so than Sanderson, i think Orson Scott is the Mormon propagandist. His Alvin Maker series is a Joseph Smith retelling in the same way Narnia is a biblical retelling. Btw, before dismissing Lewis as a propagandist, most of his non Narnia writing it straight up christian apologetics. Its actually some of the more interesting apologetics. Both The Screwtape letters and The Great Divorce were really interesting reads.

The bottom line for propaganda is intention. Was the work created with the intention to manipulate beliefs or thoughts on a topic? Most literature seeks to explore universal themes about what it means to be human. Those explorations are often grounded in the views and experiences of the creator, but that is not the equivalent of an intent to manipulate.

I have an-8-year old daughter, and she is starting to think for herself, and me trying to filter information so heavily does not work anymore. Instead of forcing her to believe in a certain way, I teach her to be critical of how she should be affected by different ideas and behavior. I am not particularly religious, but I let her watch stories from the bible because outside of the preachiness of the content it can teach her important moral values about love and compassion. I just want to be part of the dialogue, and for her not to be afraid to talk to me.

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

If that how you really feel then you'd have no problem showing her stories from the Quran or the Torah as well right?

@Frozenfrog18

Жыл бұрын

@@user-wm2sz8eg7h Yes I have no problem with it. When she gets a chance why not. The situation we have though is that she is surrounded by Catholics, so I cannot really tell her not to listen to them, but at least learn what she can use in real life.

@user-wm2sz8eg7h

Жыл бұрын

@@Frozenfrog18 Thats a fair assessment of it. Let her learn what the kids around her know, Christmas, etc. but give her access to everything else as well. See you in the New World, Strawhat.

I don't think Lewis' work really tries to promote Christian belief. Sure there are references and a few winks, but there are never any flat out religious references. The closest we get is Voyage of the Dawn Treader which has Aslan say he exists in our world but is known by another name. An even thats vague. I think people get so hung up on his beliefs and his more obvious symbolism they don't see some of the beauty in his work. There's some truly wonderful stuff there