Is there any possible way that J8 is not the best hand here?

@lakerfan1855

3 жыл бұрын

Nope. No other combo of KJ makes it to the river

@DLHarv

3 жыл бұрын

It’s so unlikely that right here you just have to assume that it’s always the best hand. Like you said maybe 1/1000 you are wrong in this spot Great hand. 🤟

@dandattola

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but it's a total 🤡 thinking overs may be good after the flop. I have seen it all, but I would have played it how you called it, and said nice hand if he flipped KJ. Then went outside and screamed to recompose myself.

@BobWhoosta1

3 жыл бұрын

Even if you consider that he shows up with KJ FAR more frequently than he actually does( which is almost never), you still raise all in because you only need the opponent to call with a worse hand 51% of the time in order for a value bet to work. This might be a good way to extend the logic to people who find it difficult to feel safe in eliminating KJ, probably purely out of seeing ghosts. "Okay, let's say he shows up with KJ 1/3 of the time here. That STILL leaves us with a clear value raise, AND remember I'm not saying he's even going to do that. Based on my earlier explanation there's just no way that happens, if we assume he's playing poker at anywhere near even an intermediate level. But let's say he does have it. We still raise for value because he'll call with more hands that are worse."

@alistairwillock7266

3 жыл бұрын

complete idiocy on the part of the villain

Finally a caller who actually wanted to hear what Bart thought and was also honest about his level of play and thought process. Please give more of these!

Thanks for the little discussion about "this IS the nuts." It's helpful to be reminded about that sort of stuff.

Wonderful commentary about reducing hand ranges. You have a way of explaining the logic that helps in a general sense with figuring out hand ranges for other situations. Also, it's a facet of poker that is often overlooked by weaker players. I can sense your frustration in how often you have to explain this concept, but I'd just like to encourage you that these efforts are worthwhile.

When I see moves like Villain made on the River in this hand, I turn to the Hero and say "Merry Christmas"

just call it what it is, "the effective nuts"

Thanks Bart, I really am humbled by the thinking that goes into this game that we all love. I have a lot of work to do! I would not have even thought of the blockers to the nuts I held in a hand like this up until a few weeks ago, and would have assumed that there was a way I was sometimes behind against KJ. Saying that, I probably would have still shoved. ;-)

I really like and appreciate the videos, I learn a lot. Would love to see a short one or two sentence wrap-up at the end of these clarifying the lesson learned from the situation.

With my luck at the poker table my opponent will always have KJ here 😂🤦‍♂️

Correct hand logic is one of my favorite videos. Love this one as well. Thanks for the post!

Bart, you are my favorite commentator. Being fairly new your explanations and breakdowns are understandable. Thank you.

Wow dude. That guy in the BB was absolutely terrible. First off. He only flopped a gutter but he decided to call the bet with a player left to act behind him which is pretty loose. Then he hits his miracle 3 outer on the turn and he's perfectly set up to check/raise and set up an easy river jam but he check/calls. Then he sees his opponent go for a half pot sizing on the river and instead of checking to induce that action and check/raising (which would make it a lot harder for a hand like an overpair or a set to fold) he instead decides to nullify that half pot bet by betting pot himself. That's 3 pretty big mistakes in the same hand. Long live poker.

@josephdickens87

3 жыл бұрын

Was thing the same thing. I wish that dude was playing every table I've ever been at lol.

Trying to learn how to think better at the tables. Sometimes it is so much easier when you are not in the hand! This is an excellent example of what to think about. Thanks!

im always shocked how fast you figure thing out, I have done ER medicine for over 20 years and I just see things right away as they show up so its so cool to me to see you do it. im a rec player but I try to learn and be smart but when I watch you im just thinking "holy hell" this guys just sees things like I do but in two different worlds..... love your vids

@jakecooper5855

2 жыл бұрын

define: humble brag

@TheDryDown

Жыл бұрын

@@jakecooper5855 not a humble brag at all, i experience the same kind of visionary aptitude whenever I’m scanning a defensive scheme as a back up quarterback in the NFL.

Another great lesson bart. Thank you so much for all the value you put out every week. I realize lots of people like the intro clips at the begining of the hand but do you think there's a way to block out the cards in the clip during the intro? I feel like it gives away the hand and ruins the suspense for the rest of the video.

"I sized up and bet 135" Bart - well i wouldnt call that sizing up LOL

I think some folks are typing out "78's the nuts" because doing so is a meme; maybe inspired by a Marle video.

The “effective” nuts

Yes J8s is too wide imo. I'd bet more turn - around 200 River - Not going to overcomplicate this based on river action, it's simple, we're going all in I will say however that I fully empathise with this guys mistake, sometimes in the moment confusion and disorientation can set in when random/unexpected table action occurs.

God please give me a runner runner straight, I swear I will never call it anything but the nuts and will be all in on the river 🙏🙏🙏

@Ohrami

3 жыл бұрын

Good, you got it on a paired board with four diamonds. You don’t have a diamond. And there is a bet and a raise before you.

You have to jam but at these stakes KJ is a lot more likely than you would think. Two overs on the flop , a gutter and two overs on the turn with small bet sizing newbs are gonna show up with KJ a lot , but it’s more likely queen 10 or queen 9

You know the really funny thing about this hand if you think from villians perspective: why the hell would you even make a big deal about hero acting out of turn on river, then min clicking it to $450 when you could have just raised it to $450 if you know hero is betting $225 on the river. Either hero is bluffing and will fold to your $450 lead and you get nothing on the river OR he calls in which case you could have just actually check/min-clicked it OR you think hero is going to spaz with like a set and 3 bet river, that you intend to call a raide? Not that I'm saying Villian should have "angle shot" on the river there but just kind of shows both players make a very questionable move on the river there.

I learned so much here wow

Bart seems pretty annoyed here.

@Smartacus420

3 жыл бұрын

He always does imo 😂

I imagine this guy's nose being about the size of a doorknob

I wouldn’t have realized KJ was the nuts during the hand, I would have been thinking he rivered 2 pair or he was slow playing a flopped set. I always find this mindset interesting, the hero is loose enough to raise J8s pre but turns into OMC on the river if we don’t have the stone cold nuts.

The same thing happened to me when I had QT suited and had the nut straight then I bet out of turn $100 and he bets $175 then I push all - in and the donkey calls down with top 2 pair

I'm feeling nice today, so I will give the caller a tip - drop down to 1/2 and dont move up until you crush; you should not be playing 5/5 or 5/10.

Nice intro👍

If I'm the villian in this hand, I'm letting the out of turn action stand and check/shoving with 78s. I'm value owning myself in this spot thinking I'm only losing to two combos KJhh and J8hh. To be honest, I'm probably not putting J8hh in your range which leaves only one combo, KJh.

Not being condescendent towards hero here, just trying to put emphasis on 2 different comments Bart made. 1st thing first, hero has been super honest about his level of play, and seems to be the kind of guy who will learn from this exchange. 1: Bart said it’s kind of wide to iso with J8s, no matter who you think limper is. 2: he mentioned the concept of effective nuts, clarifying that you were blocking the only real nut combo possible in the situation. If you are reading this take it as an advice, not trying to make fun pf you. But until you are confident that you are able to recognize those situations on later streets, make sure you don’t try this light iso moves. Thing is that they will cost you many small amount of money. As long as you are bot sure if you can get real MAX value when the opportunity shows up, just stay out for there. Talking from experience. i would deffo have iso this dude with J8s from button. And I would also did the same 5-6 years ago. Difference is that now, I know what I’m getting into… 5 years ago, I was missing value left and right in those situations, making those spots, break even at best. Keep up the good work!

Also the fact that out of turn betting was binding and opponent still chose to bet made it hard for them to have the nuts right? Otherwise they should just check raise instead to at least get the $225 from bluffs and more from better hands?

Is the podcast on spotify? Thanks

The buh-ehn

1 out of 1000 he has KJ? No, at smaller stakes, it's a minimum of 1 out of 3.

Surprised BB didn't check raise turn

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, there’s so many bad cards on the river that make your hand no longer the nuts or potentially kill your action. K, Q, J, 8, 7 all put higher straights out there and 8/7 put a one liner out killing your action vs two pair hands. T, 9, 6, 3 pairs the board. And any heart brings in the flush. Even an A might kill your action if hero has KK-JJ. If you’re going to donk the river why not just check raise turn?

Say i’m V and looking down at KhJx. On flop my hand has 6 outs plus both backdoor flush and straight draws. On turn my KhJx has 9 outs with option to have a healthy bluff (26 outs with total of 32 outs!) if neither a heart nor A lands down on river (total 13 outs against me). So, i called all bets. If this is not a bad play of mine, then KhJx is a hand H must be worrying about. And he did. Good play by Hero.

@Steve-eb8jc

3 жыл бұрын

You're either a bad troll or an utter fish

Guy opens J8s and when he makes the nuts on the river he doesn't raise. Why open with J8 when you dont make the max when you smash?

@well.thy.one.

3 жыл бұрын

King jack is the nuts

@dorianm6383

3 жыл бұрын

Is your brain malfunctioning or did you just not watch the video?

So what hands does this guy ever shove😂😂

Something is fishy with the villain here, the call of out of play than the big bet, so was angling here....

Bart I have a situation where in one orbit there are three major hands that play out on a very strange way. How can i discuss if its worth talking about on the show?

@modestomouso1234

3 жыл бұрын

Email him

@CrushlivePoker

3 жыл бұрын

Email Bart@crushlivepoker.com

i think the question to ask is what worse hands can call. All the sets, 2 Pair, Q 10 seemed very possible and of course 7 8.....

don't be embarrassed and don't apologize for betting out of turn heads up. if i'm your opponent i will never question it. villain made a huge mistake by calling you out here if he was hoping to get value from a weaker hand.

Hero thought villain had KJ that’s why he just called the $450

@connman8d617

3 жыл бұрын

That's why Bart made this video. Given how the hand played out there is basically a 0.00002% chance that the guy has KJ. Forgetting about how bad of a call that would have been on the flop, it's just as bad of a call on the turn unless he had exactly KcJc.

@lordhuebi

3 жыл бұрын

@@connman8d617 the turn was a spade ;)

@everythingallin4905

3 жыл бұрын

He doesn't because the only KJ he check calls the flop with is KJ of hearts and hero has the blocker to that hand with the J of hearts.

Action is NOT binding in LA except old school Hollywood Park. They still call a raise only 2x the bet amount not the raise amount.

@mikemck4796

3 жыл бұрын

That’s what it should be

Not sure I agree. Villian reasonably calls cbet oop w KhJs because he has two backdoors and overs. Turns a 9 and calling stations def call another bet w overs and a gutter.

The villain could very well have had KcJc. I would call the flop with that had and very possibly called the turn due to the bet sizing.

I agree with Bart. This straight is the fucking nuts

This video was great for us noobies

Geez how do you not shove? Confused?

Great content

Man this is bad lol. Take an extra second and go through it man. You're never losing here. Once in a thousand times a manic like Donkey on TCH live will have KJ, that's it. Missed out on 450$ because he was getting snap called. No flush draw there no paired board. Oh yeah. I'd snap 78 lol

thought KJ was nuts

Head up any rule doesn’t make sense, the thing with action out of turn is in three ways pots or more. HU should have no consecuenses or punishment

Actually, KJ was the nuts there.

@CrushlivePoker

3 жыл бұрын

You're a smart guy

@californiaplant-basedeater2761

3 жыл бұрын

@@CrushlivePoker lol

@coreyprisoc1988

3 жыл бұрын

It is? How so

@californiaplant-basedeater2761

3 жыл бұрын

@@coreyprisoc1988 Look. I've been playing poker a long time, and I can tell you JK was definitely the nuts, there. The straight goes all the way to the king. If you don't handle it, go down the street to the kiddie table. Seriously, though, people more often than not, are saying that as some type of bait. Or, the person saying something that isn't the actual nuts is the nuts, is baiting them, sensing they'll bite, so as to have an excuse to call them dumb and prop themselves up, possibly. Or any number of other reasons. There's always a point to something being said, especially at a poker table.

Isn’t it 17 outs on the turn ? Instead of 15 ? Or do you give the other guy credit for 2hearts ?

@DoyleAK

3 жыл бұрын

2 of your straight outs are also your flush outs, you don’t count them twice

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

If you’re giving the other guy credit for two hearts then it gets pretty complicated. There’s a lot of different possibilities. You might actually be way ahead eg against 54 of hearts or 75 of hearts if villain plays those preflop. If you aren’t ahead any of the 3 Jacks left in the deck will always give you the winning hand as will a non heart Q or 7 which always gives you the best straight. So you have at the very least 9 outs. And possibly 12 outs if your 8 is good eg vs A3 of hearts. .

@DoyleAK

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicks210684 I think you misunderstood his question.

On the off chance that he somehow ever had KJ he wouldn’t have said anything about the out of turn bet and would just put in the check raise.

@louisperron6506

3 жыл бұрын

Why wouldn't he do the same with 87 !? Especially when he elects to bet 450$... it's meant to be a value bet so why not check raise instead of donk betting. Makes no sense

There is no way he flat called the river here 😂😂😂 I need to play more live poker oh my god

@mrx7181

3 жыл бұрын

He was getting paid too what the actual hell

@mrx7181

3 жыл бұрын

It's not even a question whether or not he should shove here

@tylerberg4360

3 жыл бұрын

You never misplayed a hand bro.?

Doesn’t make sense. Why didn’t the villain check raise on the turn?

I’m confused tho why villain cannot have Kh and a Jack for KJo. He called a preflop raise and floated the flop with backdoor heart and backdoor straight and overcards...

@jordanmarry3151

3 жыл бұрын

Very rare to have light floats like that OOP 3 handed facing 1/2 pot bet

@kzkilla808

3 жыл бұрын

3 way and had a player inbetween. Takes a special type of maniac to be be floating twice oop, not closing the action on flop.

@Unhingedanduninformed

3 жыл бұрын

making that call on the turn would be speculative at best. If he’s lucky assuming his K and J are even live, he’s barely 20% equity going to the river.

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

I do think there’s calling stations out there who will show up with KhJx. But if you think they’re a calling station, then you should 100% still be shoving the river. Because they’re a calling station. And you have the second nuts. They’d probably tell themselves you have a busted heart draw and call you down with QT. Or maybe even KQ lol.

@kineahora8736

3 жыл бұрын

@@Unhingedanduninformed yeah the turn is the tough part-would have had to call 60% bet on the turn with 2 overs and a gutter... not closing the action too...but of course I’ve seen that before...

Man I feel sick for Hero. Hero has to shove all day long. The only hand that makes sense for Villain to have is 87

@well.thy.one.

3 жыл бұрын

I put him on KJ

@SeanBenson23

3 жыл бұрын

@Jimmy McMuffin agreed, a bad Villain could be overplaying a set

@SeanBenson23

3 жыл бұрын

@@well.thy.one. no KJ ever makes it to the river as played. I even tried considering KJcc but KJcc simply never makes it

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

@@SeanBenson23 the guy called the flop with a gutshot straight draw with no flush draw and no overcards. And he wasn’t even closing the action. I don’t see how you can rule out KJ completely. But that said...I’m still shoving the river all day.

@SeanBenson23

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicks210684 theoretically you can never rule out any hand at any time, but the way this is played KJ only get there 1/1000 times.

If this guy just got it in last hand with 92o Im jamming some two pairs for value here. The flat call is painful

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Though I do think this type of wild, loose player can show up with KJ...he’ll also call a shove with plenty of worse hands. No way he lays down QT or T9. It’s a shove all day.

@lordhuebi

3 жыл бұрын

They guy with 92o was not the villain here, that dude folded on the flop.

@mikemck4796

3 жыл бұрын

Trying to make the 92o that valuable?

Min click? This as much fun as a root canal.

I guess I’m that 1/1000 then.. if I have KJ on the flop and face a $55 bet I’m calling? So many turn cards that give me equity + I have 2 overs. Hero will be betting 100% of his range on this board. Then when I get to the turn I hit one of the cards that give me equity, why fold there for 130 into 235? Small bet when I still have 2 overs and am drawing to the stone nuts. Don’t see how KJ never shows up here

@TheIronyoshi

3 жыл бұрын

It’s a 3 way pot hero shouldn’t be betting 100% of his hands, it’s not like kj of clubs or kJ off has a particularly large amount of equity of the turn anyway, especially being oop, it’s a bad way to play kj man.

@CrushlivePoker

3 жыл бұрын

Remember on the flop, the BB was not headsup. He called next to act with a player behind him. Calling here with KhJx is absolutely burning $$ here.

@pokerqAK47

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah you’re just one of those pay off wizards that casino is filled with. Please continue being one

Thatys the dumbest complaint ever. he should be happy the guy acted outta turn. now he could shove.

He could have KJ if he misread his hand and thought he had KK, so heroes hand is the absolute 2nd nuts, and yes I’m trolling

Action on the river didn’t make any sense . What was op goal in this case? He saw hero betting, looked like he wanted to get as much money in the pot as possible, why just didn’t raise him. Poker is not dead

@kzkilla808

3 жыл бұрын

That's what I'm saying. Villian is not very smart here, just let the bet stand and check raise with your str8 here. What if you make hero pull back his 225 and bet 450 and hero folds...lol.

@kzkilla808

3 жыл бұрын

Or are you trying to take the 3rd nuts for a bluff 🤣

KJcc is my only guess

@theelandlord3313

3 жыл бұрын

But obviously he would have to be loose but apparently he was with the trash jam

The guys with 78 though he was trying to trap you into continuation bet when he turned the nut straight and over beat the river (trying to be cute and thinking and begging you to call the over size bet of 450) unknowingly he had the smallest straight at this point. Yes...you made a safe and conservatives call. Rec players will always play safe but guys like Bart will goes thought all the possibilities and determine he does not have the JK and milk him his last 400 for the ALL IN.

Is this Ben Deech?

Hero gets pretty unlucky here imo. Any road pro would have dummied up and allowed the action out of turn and ripped it in.

9:55 - It's not that dumb. JcKc is a specific combo. The rationale would be, Villain has 2 overs with a backdoor flush draw. On the turn he picks up 4 more outs. It's exactly how Tom Dwan would play if he thinks Hero is on a flush draw with something like AK or AQ. Granted at lower stakes, people don't play like Dwan, but at higher ones they do.

@maarten2803

2 жыл бұрын

AK and AQ would have your KJ dominated

Yikes

That’s a little too wide ... But I am a reg... If you think you are that good and won’t take advice don’t send any hand to Bart to review it!

@Alex-gb8em

3 жыл бұрын

i thought he said he is a rec player

Please stop putting the final board on your introduction. It is a spoiler.

People take the time to say “78 is the straight” just like you take the time to call them out on it, Bart. One hand washes the other in internet-ego land.

KJ is the nuts, not J8. Come on, bro.

Nuts would be KJ. But in this situation J8 is about as nuts as it gets

@Steve-eb8jc

3 жыл бұрын

Surely you're joking. Did you even watch the video

@Unhingedanduninformed

3 жыл бұрын

@@Steve-eb8jc surely I did. Did you even read my comment?

Honestly, the villain should have check raised turn to get the guy off any possible draw he had. The villain lost this hand more than the hero won it.

How is this guy playing 5/5 when he's so F***ing bad at poker. Jesus I need to move to America and I'd be a millionaire in a few days 😅

It just bothers me to hear a grown man call the button..the Buuuu unn. Teenage girls are bad enough. peace.

I totally get the irritation of "keyboard warrior" trolls n noobs trying to explain what the nuts are. Many decent poker players use the "nuts" in a broad sense to indicate knowing you have the best hand and not in as absolute nit amateur definition. I totally agree with the point being made in this video. Why change or challenge the callers use of middling straight when it's perfectly logical & accurate? It makes little sense and will just adds to confusion. Its not similar to using the nuts in a broad sense at all. In this particular hand it might be highly unlikely for the Villain as the BB to have KJ, but in other hands it becomes more ambiguous and difficult to define Villains range. So for different hand analyses you will be chopping & changing your definition of top, middle, bottom straight for no benefit and all to the confusion of the listener or person your discussing the hand with.

@Steve-eb8jc

3 жыл бұрын

The fact that "middling straight" is even in his mind implies that he is thinking about hands that can beat him. When you get to the river with J8 on this board with SPR of like 1.6, you absolutely must be thinking about one thing only: how to get all your money in. To even think about losing to KJ indicates an extremely flawed approach.

@shanejett3550

3 жыл бұрын

@@Steve-eb8jc I disagree but thanks for your insight. All your doing is repeating exactly what the guy in this video said, & yes I did actually watch the video - THANKS! You haven't expanded on or offered any additional explanation as to what was said in the video. I understand exactly what was said in the video, and his perspective & point of view, so it's pointless that you simply repeat it like a parrot. The fact that this guy is a recreational player, is a 99% guarantee that he is thinking about poker in the "wrong way" per say and has a flawed approach. Most rec & amateur players will almost always have nagging doubts about being beaten by the nuts. That doesn't make this amateur players terminology wrong, in FACT is 100% accurate. The way we speak in poker conveys information - and it's important to convey it succinctly and accurately. An example is the term "trips" & "set". Both hands have the same value generally but if used correctly convey more accurate & in depth information. I have heard pros use the terms incorrectly and also done it myself many times, n have been corrected. Also I think any decent poker player knows even tho both set n trips have the same general hand strength value they differ significantly in terms of actual value or implied odds. Whilst it's not a terrible mistake or a big deal it's still a bad habit and doesn't convey info in the best possible way to use the wrong "term". The fact is that everyone understands the terms top, middle & bottom straight to be exactly what they are - why change it? The guy in The video Bart is simply "calling" Heros J8 a middle straight and also Villains 78 a middle straight from his point of view and then adds or corrects it to: "from Villains perspective they have bottom straight!" Bart is basically using the terms incorrectly to indicate the value of the straight based on his interpretation, blockers Villains range etc whatever. Barts preference to create his own personal value system doesn't help the discussion in any way. It simply adds confusion n inaccurate, unnecessary info. Different hands have drastically different value on different boards - that never changes what they actually are. Top, middle, bottom pair does get a different term on a monotone board does it? OK let's now call it high card! A flush is still a flush on a double paired board right? NO!!! Let's call it bottom pair! It's stupidity, confusing and unnecessary to try to reinvent the wheel and value system - a value system that logically works and is impossible to misunderstand. I totally agree Hero should be fairly happy to ship it in with the 2nd nuts, blocking KJ nuts on a safe board. Just because the board is safe, with a missed draw, & Hero blocks the nut straight doesn't upgrade middle straight to top straight. It's simply increases the value of the straight & reduces the risk. Apple's are Apple's & Oranges are Oranges - why the illogical new value system?!?!

@Steve-eb8jc

3 жыл бұрын

@@shanejett3550 Jesus christ you really just wrote a 5 paragraph essay

@shanejett3550

3 жыл бұрын

@@Steve-eb8jc fucking yes! But I didn't count.....

@nicks210684

3 жыл бұрын

@@Steve-eb8jc I agree. I don’t actually think KJ is completely out the question here. But even if V can have KhJx or maybe KJcc I’m always shoving. Flat calling is pure MUBS.

Dousche chills on the elitist “middling straight” convo. Relax man, it’s alright if people comment what the nuts is when you misspeak