"I tried, guys."

Sanderson got it right... the made up Moirane arc kept them from spending sufficient time on the Perrin and other arcs.

@beckmsha

9 ай бұрын

Tbh I thought Perrin was always the worst character in the novels. As a teen reading his sections, I was bored to tears.

I know the show has had a lot of stick, but i have to agree with sanderson that the villains are better than in the books. I actually find it realistic that Rand might choose Lanfear, heck i have been team Lanfear for about 4 episodes.

Lan literally tosses a blanket over the dagger in season one and picks it up

@emerystheimmortal417

9 ай бұрын

Its a show problem. In the books Rand has to put it in the same container as the horn to stop the corruption affecting them

@lawrencenehring2567

9 ай бұрын

I don’t think it is a problem, just a change like any other. Physical touch can be filmed… metaphysical symbolism cannot.

@MIJCheng

9 ай бұрын

​@@lawrencenehring2567it's not that hard to visually portray radiation/exposure to a corrupting presence beyond touch

@robbomegavlkafenryka6158

9 ай бұрын

@@lawrencenehring2567yes you can. It has been done before.

@Echidna23Gaming

9 ай бұрын

And he also knows Moiraine can heal him if need be, Mat has experienced the corruption and is extra cautious in this episode. I see no problem with that

This would have really benefitted from everyone having watched the episode first. This should be 2nd watch or post watch discussion. Even though I mostly agree with Brandon (or am even more negative) and was most curious to hear his opinions given his role, I cannot see how you can focus on or even have a hope of appreciating the episode with the running commentary.

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

Yep agreed, would definitely like something like this for next season's finale, but I do like their initial reactions, I am glad they gave a week for all of us to catch up on the episode, I think maybe having Sanderson save his producer comments for a second watch through with them as an insiders commentary would have made this a bit smoother as a first watching For Matt and Daniel. I do like the Daniel Greene video Matt did before the finale, I would love more of those also!

@samanthaa.6055

9 ай бұрын

Yes- I think because Brandon had read the scripts, there was no reason for Matt and Daniel to wait so long to watch it.

@AloisiaSedai

9 ай бұрын

​@@anydaynow01 For sure.

I really agree with Sanderson here. Rand's overall arc, especially at the end, is the realization that *despite* him being the most powerful, effective channeler the world has ever seen, many things needed to fall in place for his overall success. He needed his friends. That doesn't make him weak. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have big fights with the powerful major antagonists of the series. Rand is an insanely strong character in combat and in the force of his will and his morals and ideals. In the show, it tries to show how he needed his friends by presenting us with a Rand who is *otherwise completely useless*. He has fewer channeling feats than a bottom-tier Aes Sedai, and fewer swordfighting feats that Nynaeve(?) and even Perrin(???). They took out Lan's really awesome mentorship and replaced it with Lan's interpersonal break-up drama with Moiraine, and that bit was consistently bad.

"How did they get the Horn?" Chat mentioned it but, " woman from Cairhien" gave it to them. AKA Lanfear meddled.

"Rand doesn't need to be there. Egwene just needs a sword." LOL

One comment of Brandon's that I really wish the showrunners took to heart was his one that people usually won't come back just for spectacle. Same for all of the forced in drama between the main characters, like in the end of season 1. There's a ton of fantasy TV shows out there with relationship drama and (sometimes) some decent spectacle/fights and riddled with poor consistency or lack of character arcs. And most of those shows go a season or two and then die off as the viewers lose interest. Look what happened to Game of Thrones, people were incredibly invested in the early seasons and then soured on the late seasons as logic and character arcs got thrown out even as battles got bigger and more impressive. Wheel of Time has those arcs already written and a fanbase that wants to see them, don't ruin them for immediate spectacle.

@c.k.8585

9 ай бұрын

Fantasy lives and dies on verisimilitude whatever the media. The moment you lose internal consistency, the facade drops and the ability of the media to engage and engross the viewer dims.

1:04:55 - Brandon: "Why is Nynaeve in this show?" I think this reflects back to Brandon's comment about S1 Ep8, that he thought Egwene and Nynaeve should have failed because of inexperience and lack of training. That would have given them a reason to go to the Tower to learn to not be caught off-guard next time. Here we see how Egwene have toiled in the Tower, she tells Nynaeve as they are leaving the Tower that she only went because she would never be caught untrained again because if she had known what she was doing and been a good Channeler she might have been able to save Rand (who she thought was dead). Then she were trained in the Tower and by the Sul'dam. Yet here we sit with Nynaeve. She feels completely useless, she can't save her Two Rivers folks, she cannot even heal the wound from an arrow. She relies in Elayne, a woman that have annoyed her through the whole season. Nynaeve cannot channel at all. She feels completely useless which she hates and this will be her urge to try to break her block, or at least find ways around it (like how in the books she can push herself to be angry). I think Nynaeve's purpose there is to feel useless and feel the need to break her block and train as a future Yellow.

@CDubbles

9 ай бұрын

I think this would work if we hadn't already seen her huge displays of power in S1. The audience has been taught to expect that out of her, so when she does nothing it feels like she has no purpose in the show. Is her block more pronounced now? She can channel in S1 when the plot demands it, so it feels arbitrary. I hope you're right that her failure in S2E8 will be motivating to her character.

@Ferdawoon

9 ай бұрын

​@@CDubbles I agree here. We've seen her bypass her block when it's been needed (her AoE heal in Ep4, shielding against Machin shin in Ep7, even helping with the Trollocks in Ep8) but here she struggles. I guess I could have seen her get angry or fearful enough to blast that Archer on the wall and heal Elayne but then struggle to help Rand or some other version could have worked. For a brief second I was thinking she should collar Elayne and then use Elayne's Power with her own Healing knowledge to heal Rand but that would have been a bit iffy..

Ta'veren was really in the fore front in book 3, with all the happenings in the villages Rand passed through. Another good example is a flock of birds springing up in front of a surprise arrow.

@sistercedai9554

9 ай бұрын

I wonder if that'll be on route to Aiel waste next season...

The noises Brandon makes 😂😂

Will there be another live stream after Matt's 2nd watch?

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

I really hope so, I would love to see his own takes without any pressure

@1:29:12 Matt : I don't understand how it became a fire dagger, but it doesn't burn skin Brandon : I know a guy who invented swords that cut through anything, including stones and souls, but not flesh.

I can’t say it enough, this show NEEDS two more episodes a season to flesh out the story with all these different characters and their respective plots.

@Liilliithh

9 ай бұрын

They'd just waste them with made up stuff.

@BrandonBridgman

9 ай бұрын

1000% agree with you, 8 episodes for books and a series with this amount of information let alone condensing it down to their goal of 8 seasons if it hopefully makes it to the end. The seasons are definitely too short especially with this many main characters and spread out storylines for sure.

@user-fh8mp4db4i

9 ай бұрын

​@@LiilliithhYeah. This is exactly what they would do with some extra time

@totalldwarf640

9 ай бұрын

No it just needs canceled. Rafe has proven he hates the books and just wants to piss on Jordan's grave

@pete4096

9 ай бұрын

8 episodes would have been enough if they had been more selective about what to include. For example, the Darkfriend Social had no consequence, Padan Fain's killing of the Travelers and the Fade had no dramatized point or consequence, the time-consuming phoney conflict from the first episode between Moiraine and Lan, some of Moiraine's family's scenes, etc.

Ahhh why are they not using Brandon Sanderson more in the writing room. I understand the writer's wanted to use Lan and Moiraine's separation as a plot device for Nynaeve's third arch, however, why not have Moiraine send Lan on a secret mission back to the Tower to warn the girls about the Black Ajah or something equally as important, or to tell them that Rand is alive, or to rescue/collect Mat from the Red Ajah, or SOMETHING, then he could have returned to Carhien and starting training Rand alongside Logain trying to teach him how to use the power. Also loved all your perspectives I completely echo what BS is saying he really gets story telling beyond the visuals (obviously) and it's what is holding back the show from being elevated to a masterpiece.

If losing line of sight means you can't shield someone then how were the Aes Sedai able to keep Rand shielded in the box?

@christianrapper5

9 ай бұрын

The show and books are different. You see that they already changed things.

@sistercedai9554

9 ай бұрын

That's very good point - hadn't considered that they cannot see him in the box when they place the shield!

@arnie_palmies

9 ай бұрын

@@christianrapper5 The books and show are different? No way!

I am so happy that Brandon did not hold back. In fact I kind of wish he had went even further.

Well said, thank you Brandon, Matt, and Daniel, it was great hearing new perspectives I hadn't thought of, but respectful

If you guys watched in advance, you wouldn't miss so many details (like how Loial got the Horn). I out hope next year you watch the episode BEFORE doing this stream. Better for you, better for viewers! Love getting BS's thoughts - wish you guys could engage more, without having to worry about watching for the first time.

@jasonpleau9016

9 ай бұрын

The show is trash it doesn't matter if you watch it blind it will still be trash

@ElysiaBrenner

9 ай бұрын

@@jasonpleau9016 You sound like a delightful person.

@matthewcrnich9961

9 ай бұрын

They're covering the hunt for the horn though. It's supposed to be the macguffin for the entire season. Having them find it off screen is criminal, just the worst.

I loved having Brandon Sanderson on this giving his feedback and details. I would have loved to see if Brandon was one of the main writers of the show and not just someone giving notes that they may or may not take into account. My feedback for this review next time would be to somehow show the screen and what you guys are watching while commentating for us to view.

@kenjack8864

9 ай бұрын

KZread / Amazon would not allow a replay of the episode in this format: thus the time stamp so you can simulcast the video with the show. It’s all about copyrights

@trashak3

9 ай бұрын

@@kenjack8864 well, some people with reactions were manipulating with screen time on their footage. Like - show 2 minute, vanish the screen for some time, then show again. But the sound is still there

@donvin4enco799

9 ай бұрын

if they had taken something from his note this would have been a great show, what we have is characters without any pay off in the end, like only Egwene had a good story. Everything with Moarein and Lan was pointless to the whole story. Completely agree with everything Brandon said.

@battlestarkoala

9 ай бұрын

I just set up my amazon screen (tiny) next to the Matt/Brandon/Dan video at the time stamp so I knew what they were reacting to. The braid thing would have been very mysterious if I didn't have the video to see because two of them gasped loudly :D

Geeze, I hope that isn’t Matt’s Ashandarei. I’m fine with it as foreshadowing, and just kinda assumed that’s all it was. I’ve been forgiving of a lot of the issues and changes due to Matt’s actor leaving and Covid issues, but Fain not having the dagger or them cutting the Finn and the later infiltration of the Tower of Genji would be a really huge issue for me.

@sistercedai9554

9 ай бұрын

I don't think it is, but more like a journey stick. I think he'll still need the further healing too. That thing is not safe (puece of steing) and his luck will run out....

Surprised they all missed the line that, "a lady from Cairhien" helped them. Obviously hinting at Lanfear helping them get it and sticking with the book line that Ingtar (sp?) is a darkfriend. I have read the books, but a long time ago, and even I picked up on that.

@jexter7200

9 ай бұрын

They were all talking over half the dialog and scenes, I'm not that surprised they missed half the lines.

@scajl

9 ай бұрын

Too much cross talk, they missed 60% of the show.

@ZekeUribe3

9 ай бұрын

Somehow, Palpatine returned.

@mrfeedursoul

9 ай бұрын

Too busy arguing😂

@xyr3s

9 ай бұрын

i don't think any non book readers picked up that ingtar was a dark friend lol. that's only some thing book readers know. they really fucked up that arc and the pay off wasn't there. most people were like "omg he sacrificed him self, the hot guy...", i haven't seen any non book reader reactors go "wow, that's such a good scene where rand forgives him and he sacrifices him self for rand and for his redemption".

I feel like Rand could have at least leaped forward when stabbing Ishamael... it would have felt alot better, more action packed and less awkward... no matter if Ishamael wanted to die or not. It was the slow walking that ruined that scene for me. And the weaves he did was useless, as seen earlier in the season. Such walking is too much The CW'esque

@DeadsySedai

9 ай бұрын

What weave was useless? It made the sword red hot

I am finishing the Live this morning because last night was too much. This really would have been better as two episodes. One to watch the reactions without all the chatter, and one with all the chatter. Both are great, but not together. I watched S1 as a non-book reader. It was my love of S1 that drew me to the books. I am like Hatch...watch them over and over, and listen for background noise. I am enjoying the series so much. Even the stuff that doesn't make sense. I am also excited about my re-read. 😁

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

"without the chatter..." Yes please. I mean reactions are good but discussion while the show is playing is not. I wish they paused if they're gonna say something long instead of talking over the scenes, or maybe just waited till the end

So, I just saw a Camaro with the license plate that reads NYNAEVE at the train station, and that made me giddy.

Nice to see Brandon be so direct with his opinions! Insightful

everyone is different when watching and absorbing what they watch, some are so animated that they react out loud, some talk while watching and some, as I've observed with Matt in previous episodes, are less animated and just watch quietly. well today showed us all that not everyone can watch together and still have the kind of experience they need out of it. I just feel bad for Matt. I think this would have worked better if they watched separately and then compared notes after. The discussion would have been more nuanced. Brandon had the advantage of reading the scripts ahead so he seem to have felt that he wouldn't miss much even if he talked during the show. But unfortunately the other two couldn't catch everything going on while he was talking. Plus reading a script is way different than watching the final product, I mean, with cgi, cuts, ad libs, actor nuances, impromptu changes that they saw worked better in actual shoot than in scripts, music etc etc. Can't be judged the same way. They weren't even given the chance to see for themselves if they like it or not, they were already being primed to not like it even before it started. I'm all for contradicting views but must be fair, not influenced I'm glad this wasn't my first watch, it would've been a bummer

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

Yep when they do this again, and I really hope they do, they will have a more reactionary first watch through, then have a second which gives them time to think about things in the interim, that way Sanderson could have saved a lot of his commentary for the second viewing of the show. They can shoot the two shows back to back and release the second more commentary filled one a week later. I do like seeing all their initial reactions though while watching the show again simultaneously in a separate window. They also did a good job in giving everyone a week to catch up with the show so it won't be their first time seeing the episode with the commentary. In all I liked how it was a live reaction to their first viewing!

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

@@anydaynow01 I'm down for their first watch reactions if done separately, then get together immediately after for in-depth discussion. They can debate all different takes for all I care, I'd love to watch that. But if they do this the same way together for their first watch, I'd definitely skip it. It wasn't fair to those who wanted to focus and absorb the episode ,they missed more than half

@leec9489

9 ай бұрын

Yep. Brandon definitely set the tone for that first viewing. Fun to watch but not really fair to Matt and Daniel.

@Al_Ellisande

9 ай бұрын

As much as we're all forever indebted to Brandon for finishing the story, you are correct here Bev. Matt just wanted to take it in, while Daniel seemed able to talk a bit but not too much. And yes they would've enjoyed its more. Plus Brandon is closer to the production than they are, so he has natural hang-ups that he's exporting to these two as they're trying to watch as you say for the first time. Plus, TV viewers do not have same attention-span as book-readers. Scenes matter, for better or worse.

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

@@Al_Ellisande yrah it was really hard to watch, I didn't finish it. To be fair, I am not against the criticism or dislike or whatever any of them have for or against the show. My problem is the timing of its delivery. It simply wasn't right

Thank you Brandon for voicing so many of the concerns I have been having over the last two seasons. Will always appreciate what you’ve done for WOT

@isaac25395

9 ай бұрын

“It still bothers me that so many of the characters didn’t have to be there, and much of it doesn’t seem to mean anything” No Aei Sedai answers here!

@salvus7021

9 ай бұрын

It was such a relief to hear him talk truth to people who have gone completely off the rails. I have always trusted Brandon's integrity and will continue to do so.

Watching Daniel's face through the whole 'battle on top the tower' scenes, you can see the conflicting emotions of what he wants to like and what he is so confused about. I thought it was a great episode but that tower scene just.....I don't get it. Egwene stole the show, Rand did almost nothing the entire episode, Mat had a great moment, and Perrin and Nynaeve faded into the background. Then they add the whole fantasy fire balloon animal up top and it just.....why? That dragon was straight-up cringe.

@Adanu191

9 ай бұрын

Do you really want an answer to that, or are you just complaining to complain?

@chocopuddingcup83

9 ай бұрын

@@Adanu191 I'm not complaining, I'm stating the obvious. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the show, but there's some scenes that just....why? It makes no sense. Like Sanderson said: WoT has hard-coded rules, and if you start breaking them it becomes a habit and you just end up with a big mess.

I enjoyed hearing Brandons perspective and think he made fantastic points. Always appreciative of everyone commiting the time to do this stream ang get a glimpse into what Sandersons thought process is.

@AloisiaSedai

9 ай бұрын

I would like to have heard all that AFTER they watched. Not during.

@tWoTter

9 ай бұрын

@@AloisiaSedai I guess it didn't bother me because the S1e8 finale watch live stream was the same way, except Daniel wasn't there.

@AloisiaSedai

9 ай бұрын

@@tWoTter I am glad I missed that one then. I didn't like S1E8 but I don't like being told what to think while it's happening.

@joshperry4

9 ай бұрын

I'm going to have a hard time respecting Sanderson after this stream

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

@@tWoTter that was different tho coz it was Matt's second watch and Brandon's first so he was actually just looking out for Brandon's first watch reactions. He was able to focus on anything Brandon has to say without missing details in the show. But this time he missed about half or more of the episode while trying to listen to Brandon

I love armchair QB Brando Sando so much

They should have the actor that plays Lews Therin in more scenes as rands madness talking to rand and babbling. He should have blacked out after the stab and had a 1 on 1 with Lews telling him that the women shielding him were weak and his true power could break 20 women shielding him then some rambling about Iliena and how he killed her. Nineve and Elayne should have healed him BOTH together then he wakes up with a nudge from Lews breaking the shield HIMSELF then go into a 5 second longer fight with ishamael.

@athomenotavailable

9 ай бұрын

I like your take. Also make the horn the reason that awakened his inner LTT

@fetchyryu

9 ай бұрын

“Should have” are definitely not the words I’d use

Too many taint puppets whispering in Matt's ears rather than actually watching the show they are commenting on 😂

I really appreciated getting to see this! Although I think the format would have benefitted from them all experiencing the episodes individually first, then doing this kind of deep dive commentary after. All the points seemed to be spot on, but overall I feel like my impression of this episode was much more positive, but I suppose its nice to be easy to please.

@shcheerchic1011

9 ай бұрын

Yes! That would have worked out much better

@antzvoli4577

9 ай бұрын

This was a great idea in theory but the execution was a complete failure thanks to Brandon- they say never meet ur heroes for a reason but they should say never invite them to reaction videos- that was beyond rough and the format didn’t work since he already seen the episode he sadly detracted from this video

@jacoblojewski8729

9 ай бұрын

Heartily agree, Brandon was too focused on discussing overall season-long arcs (that take a bit more time) which wasn't suitable to happen during a watch, unless everyone involved had already seen and digested the episode. Worse for me, feeding opinions on about to occur scenes sets up the other viewers to be pre-disposed to view it in a certain light. I think in the future it would be *much* better to have everyone go in having viewed it if the discussions are going to be along these lines. I felt bad for Dan and Matt, because they had to juggle trying to take in the information of the show and talk with Brandon at the same time, missing out on quite a few details: examples being how did Loial get the horn, and what exactly Lanfear asked to get sunk in the ocean.

@sum87itt

9 ай бұрын

I hated this episode through and through and feel so vindicated here

Even if mat was right about his version of taveren which he is not the show does not establish it while the books do.

I am always so impressed and appreciative of Matt's positivity.

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

this! the very reason I watch no matter how long the streams go

@Nickel138

9 ай бұрын

This! He is one of the only “book readers” I can still watch.

@AloisiaSedai

9 ай бұрын

​@@Nickel138 Lezby Nerdy too. I also like Naeblis because even when he doesn't like something he owns it as his own opinion, not objective fact AND he understands screenplay differences like Matt does. I think Daniel does too but this constant stream of negativity while watching it would make it hard for anyone to have a fresh experience.

@rosemarygray1444

9 ай бұрын

Matt handled this so well. I wish he would have watched with the fans.

@beckmsha

9 ай бұрын

Blindly head bobbing and saying everything is fine doesnt hold any kind of standard. There are standards in writing, and they are not being met. If it's purpose is to entertain, then there is room to consider and critique. It isn't "NEGATIVE" its "CRITICAL". Your attitude is how a variety of industries have gotten away with murder in terms of quality.

My reaction to Mat turning the dagger into an ashandarei was exactly the same as Daniel's and Brandon's. I was literally like "No... Oh god no... Please don't do this."

@meris8486

9 ай бұрын

I really hope Mat still gets the Ashandarei next season

So all of this is gonna be my thoughts before watching the VOD. As someone who hasn’t read the series but kinda knows what happens, I genuinely enjoyed this (both more than the last season and just in general). There were still a couple things that I was a bit :/ on (but there always are lmao), but overall I enjoyed it. I’ve been watching it with my mom and sister, and my sister doesn’t know jack shit about the books, but she liked it enough to finish it without us XD, and she’s still more than happy to rewatch it. I’ve also been following someone who doesn’t know what happens in the books, but they’ve been sucked into the show and it’s been very fun seeing them go feral over Moiraine/Siuan and Moiraine&Lan, actually, just Moiraine in general XD. So, at the very least, know that it works very well for people who haven’t read the books (or vaguely know what happens lmao), and has most likely gotten new people to read the books.

@samanthaa.6055

9 ай бұрын

Yes. I knew even with the new stuff they added that non readers were going to love it. I think themes are important like Brandon, but that this new media can have its own new themes that are still being developed. It also helps that this was one of my least favorite books so I was open to most changes lol

@Chzydawg

9 ай бұрын

I'm also not a book reader but have an idea of what's going on. I enjoyed it, there's character development that we haven't really seen in most tv shows these days. I like that the main characters aren't all absolute powerhouses from the jump. It's understandable that Rand is hesitant to really progress his powers because of the trade off possibility of him going insane and killing everyone. I feel like I know who Perrin is and what motivates him. Nynaeve we know is extremely powerful but cannot use this to her advantage all the time. Egwene has been tortured and forced to be used as a weapon and is now a little bit darker. Mat, whilst the use of this weapon was a little bit iffy, showed that he has some kind of an advantage to certain situations, being able to use his environment to get what he wants. I think that's part of Mat's skillset if I've been told correctly, he has some unnatural luck and I think showing him as a Macgyver kind of illustrates that better. I feel like these early seasons are really being used to develop the characters and the environment around them. I think it's working well. I know bookreaders know every plot point in the books and will be upset when things don't work out like they're supposed to, but I think people need to think of this series as its own thing. Other book adaptations of late have really been executed quite poorly. I think this series has been done with respect to the source material but also with respect to an audience that doesn't want to see a bloated 15-16 episode series where very little plot progression happens. I was a huge Harry Potter fan, reading the books several time and when the movies came out I was hecking dissapointed. So much material was skipped, characters were just destroyed or outright replaced, major story points were skipped for a streamlined story. All in all I was really saddened by how botched a job they did. Nowadays I look at it and see how there are so many more people that have seen the series and loved it. At some point you have to realise that they are two different entities; the books and the series are not the same. Two different universes with the same background story. Knowing that now I can enjoy the movies. I think wheel of time readers will eventually see that for themselves, it might not be what you dreamed of or imagined, but there's no way any company has the budget to match the human imagination; my version of Harry Potter would have cost billions upon billions, each movie would have been 5 hours long and nobody aside from the book fans would have watched it.

@shauntempley9757

9 ай бұрын

As a book reader, I am long there. I already treat the show like a second turning, and I am enjoying it.@@Chzydawg

@captainskeleton3994

9 ай бұрын

@@Chzydawg I read Harry Potter series and watched the movies. Comparing that to Wheel of Time is an offense to the former, if you really want to compare with any Movie or TV adaptation of Book, compare it with World War Z adaptation. Hey look there is nothing that matched with the book, but Israel has a massive wall around it, that is from the book, why dont u like it already ?

@WapitalismandWreedom

9 ай бұрын

it's fine if you don't think about it too much. my thing is we have marvel for that type of "shut your brain off and enjoy the action" media. WOT is so much more than that. CW shows have large audience but they aren't superb, critically acclaimed shows. WOT should be based on the source material. My expectations were just too high.

I wish they would have had a fourth person there who had not read the books for a different perspective.

So in a nutshell: 1. The series seems to prioritize spectacle over theme and story arc 2. The second season was supposed to based on the book "The Great Hunt"... but skipped the hunt. 3. Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat and Perin were all superfluous... and so was Rand...? 4. Ishamael wanted to commit suicide by proxy.

When they killed Uno off so early I was annoyed (I love his character) but thought ok, they can't have all the side characters. Bringing back as essentially being Gaidal Cain was one of the few changes that I could really get on board with. The lack of any focus on Birgitte at all definitely made me think that the lady playing her in this won't be coming back and they'll recast the part later (if they don't cut it altogether).

@anjelsedai

9 ай бұрын

It is my opinion that they only killed Uno because otherwise we would have no idea who the horn brought back, since they really didn’t even explain it. We saw Uno die. When he came back it explained that the horn brought back dead warriors. Non book readers have no idea who those others are without the exposition from the books of Thom and others.

@sistercedai9554

9 ай бұрын

Agreed and from my non reader fans reactions. This explained the horn to them. Also, think Brigette is in as she the doll in s1 and the little girl sees her in her dreams...

@someweeb4110

9 ай бұрын

The way they killed him was such a guy punch. Pointless, tasteless and brutal. Feels like they just enjoy shitting on the book fans. Real WoT fans.

@matthewnitz8367

9 ай бұрын

@@sistercedai9554 I feel like this information easily could have been provided just by having some short naturally occurring explanation though, like a short cut of Thom Merrilin in an inn when he's mentioning the Horn calling back the heroes from previous turns of the wheel. Sure doing it this way worked, but it seems like a much inferior way to accomplish providing that information.

So I think Brando needed to vent. That is so valid! Not what I was hoping for but so valid! I am becoming a book reader. I am in the midst of book 4 currently. I still really enjoyed this season. I feel season 1 is inconsistent but I still loved pieces of it. Season 2 is actually decent television. Much better. Is it excellent? No. Is it an excellent adaptation yet? Nope. The fact that improvement happened heartens me for future seasons. I choose to enjoy this for the good bits. My one gripe is that Rand, the main character, has his most agency off screen between seasons. The other characters were much more engaging to watch. So much to love though!

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

Yep loved the Sanderson vents! We need more of this since they are reasonable vents and not like all the Bookcloaks complaining it's not a word for word translation like what RJ wrote was perfect for television.

and yes as others have said agreed with both sides on some points. Civil discussion with disagreements with valid points from both sides! Loved it.

I'm with Brandon.

My biggest problem with this series is the inconsistent writing.

Good stuff I loved this dialogue.

Loved the commentary from Brandon and Daniel! I found the "I tried" moments from Brandon hilarious and I appreciated how genuine they were about things they liked and didn't like. Given how the show has blacklisted KZreadrs who were critical of season 1, it was nice to get thoughts that didn't feel "airbrushed."

I think Sanderson put to words issues i had with this episode, and the season in general. The writers are more focused on spectacle than having meaningful set ups and payoffs. It makes for unearned scenes and moments in the show, because they lack the setup they had in the books. Amd his commentary about themes and character arcs is spot on too. What is the significance of Rand stabbing Ishamael when he didn’t do most of the work fighting him, and there was no clear ideological contrast between them? Whats the point of Perrin having Uno's shield, how does it serve his character or tie into any themes? The showrunners want to have their cake (scenes from the books) and eat it too, but they lack the time or the interest in giving those scenes the set up they need to actually he impactful. Also, Dusty Wheel is just plain wrong about Ta'veren and the 'metaphysics' of the Shadar Logoth blade. His limp wristed defenses of each felt more like him being contrarian than actually expressing a position he holds.

@kenjack8864

9 ай бұрын

Considering Matt has been immersed in the metaphysics of the Wheel of time for nearly 30 years, I’d say you were wrong. I’m like Matt. I want to like the show. I know I can not have a unabridged adaptation. 14 thousand page novels need to be condensed to 64 binders of dialog no longer than 50 pages each. It can not be the same. I’m taking the joy I can from the show (solid 8/10) because it’s likely the only screenplay I’ll see in my lifetime, and I’m not yet 55.

@jaredhumpherys8335

9 ай бұрын

@kenjack8864 I hesitate to say it, but that's just an appeal to authority fallacy, and doesn't actually make a point. He's wrong about the Shadar Logoth blade, it's silly to think that it doesn't have a corrupting influence just because Mat isn't actually touching it, especially in the logic of the show. Mat clearly still feels drawn to it, as if the cleansing wasn't complete, so just by keeping it in his presence he is always susceptible to that temptation. You created strawmen for yourself to argue with too. My comment was mainly about the valid criticisms Sanderson had with the writing of the show. I'll be less charitable than Sanderson himself and say it's bad, very bad. I don't expect a 1:1 adaptation, of course that's not going to happen, but the show barely tries to keep in line with the themes, major plot points, and character arcs from the books. A faithful adaptation isn't the same thing as a word for word, scene for scene rendition. I would really like to enjoy the show, but come on, even your man Mat says he has to turn his "book brain" off to enjoy it. You don't turn your book brain off to enjoy a good adaptation. The show is a 3/10 at absolute best, and the season finale was far from the best the show had to offer. It's not a good adaptation, and it's a mediocre fantasy show that barely surpasses the bar of forgettably generic.

@leec9489

9 ай бұрын

I got the feeling that both Brandon and Matt had good points to make about Ta’veren. But Matt was definitely NOT wrong with what he was saying. Chance can be affected for the sake of what the Pattern needs, down to the trajectory of an arrow. RJ was always clear that the characters still had agency though, and could still fail. The nuance being that no one in the story knew how or when their Ta’veren nature would come in to play.

@jaredhumpherys8335

9 ай бұрын

@leec9489 It's true that ta'veren can affect chance and probability, but Sandersons interpretation is more accurate. The Pattern isn't guiding the arrow, the Pattern guides the person using the bow. It's not affecting the arrow, but rather the person loosing it, and the circumstances around it being loosed. Take Mat, for example, there are a few occasions where he throws his knives and by some ta'veren twisting of the Pattern, he's able to get unlikely hits or kills, but those throws still rely on him having learned to use his knives. He still had to develop that talent, and skill, and only then was the Pattern able to guide his hand when he used them. The Pattern is guiding, and bending HIM not his knives. It's silly yo say the characters have agency because of the unpredictability of their ta'veren nature. Rand is put I a position to learn from Lan, but he still had to choose to learn from him. Mat is put in a position to learn from Thom, but he still has to make that choice. Sanderson interpretation is better because it actually gives characters more agency.

@sistercedai9554

9 ай бұрын

Any notice that what that blade touches continues to spread? On the horn of valear it's moving after it cut open. I think this may be how Fain changes to Mordeth... plus who knows what else. Story, completely off topic

“I’m still allowed to be sad” me too, Brandon 😂

I’m very glad this wasn’t last week. Mat, you are a patient Angel. I would lose my mind, trying to watch this highly anticipated episode with someone talking over it, I do movies alone for that reason. I don’t think you got to submerse yourself in the full show experience because Brandon kept talking. I want to hear from Mat after your second watch through.

Ishamael wanted Rand turned and he was homocidal/schorched universe type homocidal . The second he realized Lanf's betrayel and that he can't turn Rand, Ishy became suicidal in 'this life'. My interpretation is that he believes he will turn Rand 'the next time'. If he could just kill Rand this time in the process, it's just a bonus. Egwain was crumbling while on defense and she would quickly colapse. Fair. The dagger - yup, don't get the rules. At. All.

Oy....okay in the future they gotta do the chat after everyone's seen it because they just talked all over so many important moments...that was frankly frustrating in many spots... I don't disagree with most of Brandon's points, and it's tough to turn your book brain off when watching, but i enjoyed the season anyway because i can just suspend belief and enjoy it as it's own thing as a tv show. I think it's much harder for him as one of the authors of the series. I do wish they would listen to his input more, but there are still some good things here and i for one LOVED this episode. I'm afraid Matt's impression of this episode is tainted by the constant feedback he's getting as he's watching rather than a cold watch with no outside influence. Not sure i loved this format.

I feel so validated to have Sanderson agree with my complaints. 😢 i wanted so bad for this to be as good as it could be

@proteuswest1084

9 ай бұрын

I don't agree with a lot of the complaints people have about the show, but if you have them, they're valid for you whether anyone agrees with you or not. You don't need Brandon Sanderson or anyone else.

i'm glad brandon feels the way i do lol. season 2 was a huge step up from season 1 and very entertaining, but man they really focused on the weirdest plot points and then season 8 was just like a montage of things happening. i still think they shouldn't have given liandrin so much screen time, they shouldn't have given mooiraine shitting on lan just to push him away so much screen time and focued more of that on rand, matt and perrin. nynaeve also should have been the one to heal rand at the end. with her power, the fact that even she can't completely heal him properly would have shown how fucked that wound is.

Extremely confused that they made Egwene heal Nynaeve's burning out at the end of the first season, when Nynaeve is the established healer. Then they made Elayne heal Rand while Nynaeve was right there.

@hammerhiem75

9 ай бұрын

Elayne healing Rand mirrored their first meeting in the books and established a connection, and also reinforced the Nynaeve Block which will be a main feature of next season. She's the first and only person who she introduced herself as just "Elayne" not Daughter heir.

"arc and theme seem to fall by the wayside for cool scenes" that Brandon quote summarizes this show for me. I'll keep watching but there is something missing that I couldn't quite put my mind on until he said that

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

Yep has a lot of CW moments, hopefully they fix this in later seasons, they definitely need to start poaching some of the GoT/HoTD and TWD folks!

Next time watch the show with us first Matt!

That looks like a terrible way to watch this for the first time

Sanderson is 100% spot on here imo. Really glad to hear his take. It's ok to have different opinions in life.

I didn't mind him using the dagger but it better not be Ashandarei and hate what they did with moiraine especially creating the dragon at the end and wasn't a fan of the ishamael fight and agree with Brandon about no fighting in the clouds. Also needs 12 episodes.

@jamiecare1042

9 ай бұрын

Praying that Perrin forges the makeshift dagger into an actual ashanderei next season. I wish Moiraine and Lan had been close enough to the action (ie just a few hundred metres from Falme rather than apparent mile or more) for the fight with the seanchan soldiers to make sense. That would also have made it believable for Moiraine to be able to channel at ships at that range. Her projecting an image of the dragon banner into the sky would have been less cringe than a fire dragon also, imho

@selinabeth4346

9 ай бұрын

She didn't make the dragon, Lanfear did. Look off to the right of the screen when moiraine channels, there's a much larger weave from Falme.

They missed some important details talking. If Amazon is going to limit the series to 8 eps/season, they've got to combine arcs. There's no way they're going to separate the cast as much as the books do. I think the dagger-spear worked.

This was kind of a bummer to watch for 'reactions' for me, it was more critical exposition on the scripting and such than how the show's moments actually played out for reactions and then some discussion. Would've preferred a different format, but that's just me. Also, I think I would've preferred Brandon to have watched the show first rather than just reading the script before hearing quite so much critical output. Also, they seemed very confused by some parts mostly because they appeared to miss quite a bit of the comments that would've explained.. lol

so to sum it up Mr Brandon you like to see Forsaken visualized ....and that's it? :)

I think many criticism you all had, especially Brandon, is because you expected this to be a finale and needs to conclude arcs. But I think it is still setting things up for future arcs. This is a season 2 and many things are being established still: season 3 will find its footing and many of the things I didn't like as much in this episode I think will be useful going forward like Nyneave feeling useless and frustrated she couldn't help (there's a insistant shot on her while Elayne heals Rand), Rand finally coming to terms with being the Dragon and moving forward in his learning rather than running away from it (which was his arc this season but will pay off only in season 3), Perrin facing the consequences of his actions in season 3, Egwene having to deal with her trauma in season 3, the bond and shield weaves being emphasized for the viewers quite heavily because it's so difficult to convey in a visual media rather than in a book,... All of this is still a set up. It only resolved Ishamael's story in quite a satisfactory way I think. So, I'm quite confident in what's coming next. I think most of the criticism here is because you're seeing this as a finale rather than as a season 2 of 8. Even though, I have to say, I do agree with many tidbits like regarding Fain or the shield (Perrin should have kept the axe) or the set up of the Heroes (too little too late) or the fact that Moiraine's arc this season was the weakest.

Assuming Brandon also read the season 3 scripts he dropped one or maybe two show spoilers. The dagger on a stick wasn't foreshadowing but will replace the ashandarei. Ishy is dead dead. So his lackluster fighting wasn't just a ploy to trick the kids into believing they'd killed him (else he could have just balefired them all). And his dusty hands wasn't from crafting his dust puppet replacement but was just from going hulk smash on the seals, I guess. 😉 Though, not being in season 3 doesn't mean he won't be back later. So that was the maybe. Both disappointing to me and big changes from the story going forward. The books are my favorite fantasy series but not perfect either, in my opinion. That said I still really enjoy the show and will keep watching. Maybe Rand will make the right choice in this turning of the wheel. 😁

Great stream. Show fans don't be hypocritical- You can love something that someone is critical of. Just like people who don't like the show shouldn't make people feel bad for loving it. I really enjoyed the season and ALSO liked Brandon's take on writing and theme here

@michaelmichaelson2014

9 ай бұрын

As someone who strongly dislikes the show I agree the other way around: too many show haters run around calling people "Amazon shills". You can have respectful disagreements and different media tastes, I hate how polarized the debate about the show's quality gets sometimes.

@samanthaa.6055

9 ай бұрын

​@michaelmichaelson2014 absolutely. Diversity of opinion is nice to see

@Adanu191

9 ай бұрын

@@michaelmichaelson2014 Most Bookcloaks I meet are not reasonable people. You can debate things with them, but generally speaking, they're just looking to hate watch, and when you actually try to explain your view on things, they call you stupid or whatever. So, it goes both ways.

@tingtaiji

9 ай бұрын

@@Adanu191Perhaps the tension starts by you calling them bookcloaks?

@Adanu191

9 ай бұрын

@@tingtaiji I call unreasonable, unthinking show hater zealots bookcloaks,. The nickname is a pretty good one, considering the stance of most Whitecloaks when it comes to Aes Sedai.

Brandon sounds like he's in pain

only just realized on my 3rd watch they have asedi suldam using the power to kill. big change from the books

Loved this! And wish we could have heard your dinner chat... LOL

Daniel is 28 OMG

@oluade626

9 ай бұрын

I thought he was older lol

Loved this. Showed both sides of book readers points and counter points.

Just thoughts about 8 episodes and how to fit the story. I watched One piece - it is also 8 episodes. And they covered a lot within these episodes! It was so engaging! It was fantastic and I know it was extremely hard to do (anime and manga are very goofy, and the lore is difficult as well). I think it is question of motivation - if you want to do, you will do it!

Sanderson with beard😍

It felt a bit awkward at times that Matt came across that he almost felt he needed to defend the show at every turn. Brandon would say something and immediately it was "no, I actually like that they did this better" or "I never bought that in the book anyway". It just came across as slightly awkward that you can't be critical of the show? Glad he enjoyed it but something seemed off.

@stephengrant4841

9 ай бұрын

A shill has to shill. I've lost a lot of respect for Matt because of this kind of thing.

@YourStylesGeneric321

9 ай бұрын

Lol its ok to like things others dont, its media, its not objective. Get over it

@battlestarkoala

9 ай бұрын

I don't think he's a shill. I've seen a lot of Star Wars Loyalists who remain faithful and defend everything even though the franchise has gone down the toilet :D I think he's just so happy that there's an adaptation .. and he's super positive. I mean he's arguing with his own boss if you think about it. Matt works at Dragonsteel :D

Really enjoyed the stream even though it wasn't the fun buddy hangout I expected. I guess I should have known better, as for book fans, the show has hardly been unifying. A bright side is all the disagreement will hopefully boost the Dusty Wheel in the algorithm.

This was much better last season when Brandon came in and watched the episode with Matt after Matt had already seen it. This was more of a lecture on what Brandon didn't like about the episode while Matt and Daniel simultaneously try listen to the lecture and also try to watch the episode and form their own opinion. Hard to do.

@neurophilic

9 ай бұрын

I also felt like it's too intimidating to argue with Brandon about WoT for the other two. The dynamics were askew. I'm not sure Daniel was able to engage with the episode. I understand others see it differently.

@pete4096

9 ай бұрын

I agree that this format is a failure.

@Nickel138

9 ай бұрын

Agreed.

Brandon came in hot with his thoughts locked in, discussion points thought out, and went full DVD commentary. Daniel and Matt just did not have a chance to catch some of the nuances of the show with all the cross talk (the more subtle ones I did not even catch til the second watch). Let alone form their own opinion of the episode. I also felt this devolved into a book discussion, not the TV show discussion that I expected. And when it was about something in the TV show, there was a lot of "this is not how it worked in the books" talk to support their opinions on the TV show. Not saying Brandon, Matt and Daniel did not all have good point (both pro and con), but watching in silence and then comparing note would have been a lot more effective to a better discussion at the end.

@fullmetalathlete

9 ай бұрын

100% this...i was frankly quite frustrated watching this and it's a bummer cause i looked forward to this all week and it felt like jumping into a group of bookcloaks on FB....

@jasonpleau9016

9 ай бұрын

There are no nuances, the writing is God awful. The acting is just as bad. Some of the reasons literally no one is watching it. Luckily it will be cancelled in a year.

Woo, if Ishy is not going to be reincarnated, what will the last battle look like???

How is the dagger in Falme? Was it not in TarValon after Matt was healed? Whether they they gave it back to him or not, how is it with Padan. Is it the same dagger?

@shauntempley9757

9 ай бұрын

Watch Season 1 finale. It will answer all your questions.

@christianrapper5

9 ай бұрын

@@shauntempley9757not really. They never explained how Padan Fain got the dagger

@inescarradice7827

9 ай бұрын

@@shauntempley9757 I don't think I want to watch it again. I have already tried to extract some meaning from it and there is none. Padan Fain steals the horn. With the fades brutally stab a lot of people, including the ogir, and left them for dead, with Perrin looking stunningly stupid, but the dagger had been with Matt at the White Tower, presumably confiscated as the danger it was.

Was really cool to see their vastly different perspectives on the episode and show as a whole each of them made several points i agreed with

Agreed. Without the show playing in the corner to know what they’re even watching it’s just strange. I suppose you could start the show on the separate screen at the same time otherwise it’s just odd..

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

Yep this is what I did, had them going with two picture in picture tabs on the browser, but I have my computer hooked up to my TV so I still had plenty of room to watch it!

@bevssabado3460

9 ай бұрын

That is how these watch together work when done in full. You have to have your own copy while they watch theirs. Otherwise they would be flagged down for copyright

I hope after seeing Sandersons reaction he won’t let Amazon Prime get the rights to his series

@anydaynow01

9 ай бұрын

I think he should because they have some serious cash and definitely are starting to show potential, but just have a very solid air tight contract on creative rights like The Expanse writers had, and hire Tony Gilroy to run it!

I thought season 2 worked well for a lot of the Characters. Egwene wouldn't be broken. It was set up season one with the breakbone story. Nanaeve had the issues with her block emphasised. Perrin experienced more trauma losing someone he cared for, setting up the importance of protecting people in the future, also why he had his shield. Mat tooted, had his importance in the future set up and has a good reason now to fully separate from the dagger after stabbing his friend. Rand had his time alone trying to cope with heading towards madness. Its also important to remember that they aged the characters up, so character arcs are going to change based on a more mature character viewpoint. Rand accepting what he is much sooner and going to work with people struggling with madness themselves/trying to learn from Logain is much more of mature approach than just denial and running away as much as possible.

@billtodd2194

9 ай бұрын

Most I can kinda see, but Perrin's shield wasn't. Uno is just randomly like, "here, take this". That's not really a defining moment for Perrin. That shield is not likely to carry into season 3 or become his signature accessory.

@wwemattitude

9 ай бұрын

@@billtodd2194 I think it's just meant to be a metaphor. Go protect the people you care about.

Elayne healing Rand is ok with me, because he's her baby bird in the first book... it sort of calls back to their meeting.

I am not sure having Brandon here helped because he was letting his own feeling cloud the feelings of the others. I think a discussion with him would have been better after Daniel and Matt had watched the episode beforehand.

It's insane how Brandon one of the fantasy masterminds of our generation, the man who wrote the final books of WOT is getting called illiterate and dumb for his takes His takes are highly logical. You dont have to agree with them, but to dismiss them and act like he doesn't know what he's talking about is the pinnacle of arrogance and ignorance

Splitscreen TV is really helping me right now

Matt turning the dagger into a spear is a good example of why this episode did not work for me. As a show, not because differences from the book. TBH, I'm fine with them changing how he gets his ashandarei. But the scene fails for 2 reasons: 1. You can't physically make a useful spear by tying a dagger to a decorative pole with some cloth. It's not suitable material nor bound properly, it's going to come apart the moment you hit something. 2. It doesn't make sense as a solution in the context of the show. The show establishes that Matt has a compulsion to touch the dagger and him doing so would corrupt him further, right? So, while the spear avoids him touching the dagger right this moment, why in the world would he want to carry around that temptation? Fain locks him in the room to keep him close enough to the dagger he gets tempted to touch it. He's going to have to fight the urge to touch it all the time. (The way the show presents the spear working it's like it somehow both counts as him touching it to satisfy his compulsion, yet also doesn't count as touching it to avoid corruption. It can't be both.) It's logical issues like this that bug me way more than them having to change a plotline to fit in an 8 episode TV show.

I hate not being able to see the episode in a box or something. I have to bail and wait until I can watch the episode and their comments at the same thing.

I don’t think Sanderson talking so much during the episode worked at all. He had read the script and had thoughts about it. He should have let you have your experience THEN analyzed it. Talking over emotional scenes (like Mat contemplating the dagger, Lan and Moraine) and then saying it didn’t work? That’s not the way to view it. I feel sad for Matt and Daniel. If it was MY first viewing, I’d have asked my friend to be quieter.

Sadly this doesn't really count as a first reaction, as a lot of potential reaction was missed while Brandon expounded on some plot point he objected to, sometimes to the point they were still discussing it two scenes later. While the analysis is valid, it would have been better served to save for after the actual run of the episode.

Sanderson is me on a first watch. And then i watch it again for the show and it flows well as an episode. I think hes so caught up with the changes he cant see why the changes... especially as some are replaced with visual clues without dialogue. I've found that my family pick up the visual themes very well so understood what was happening even when things had not been explained, but still have questions which make them want the answer in the next season. Much like i did as a reader. Some of the questions are diffeent to the ones i had at a similar point, but i dont think thats a bad thing. Its allowing, for me at least, the show to exist in a different space than the books. Which means i get to theorise again too!

The best part of this is knowing I'm not alone in the disappointment of this adaptation. I have had so much hope but I feel as if they have missed so many crucial themes and character aspects. Seeing DG's face as he cringes... in solidarity. ✊️it wounds me so.

If you watch the BTS for the show you do get more takes from Rafe on character arcs. I Don't always agree with his interpretation, but I'm along for the ride with where he's taking us

I get some painful Dresden Files PTSD sometimes

1:35:34 Damn Brando, get his ass lol

I think Uno is Gaidal Cain

Loial said Lanfear helped them get it when he showed up with it. Very quickly though.

Interesting live. I have two takeaways. Season 2 is much better than season 1. All the episodes need to be watched at least twice to really appreciate them.