Not only is it a common position, but it is even documented in the church itself. In the Discourses of Brigham Young, "When [Joseph Smith] went to Carthage he said, “I go to death; I go like a lamb to the slaughter; I go to my fate” (DBY, 467). Former Mormon here. So many Mormons are mislead and just don't know it.

@bestdecpetions I was an active mormon for over 50 years and I can tell you that the whole gun part was never told or taught to me. The church does in fact, hide and avoid the subject exactly like Bill McKeever describes. I also, visited Navuoo a few years ago and I can assure you that during the tour of the Carthage Jail given by LDS Missionaries, the guns were never mentioned. At the time I did not know about them so I did not know to ask.

@briannorbury8840

2 жыл бұрын

So wouldn't you try and defend yourself against a murderous mob? Common sense Joseph Smith had a right to defend himself. Have you ever read the accounts of some of the mob when they tried to decapitate the Prophet Joseph Smith after he was dead and what happened to those who tried to do so? Joseph Smith was the most trustworthy man of anyone that ever lived. This is a misrepresentation of him he knew he was going to die like a lamb to the slaughter. The governor was supposed to protect him so that he could go to trial for what - for blasphemy and other trumped up chasges of which he had defended himself successfully on over 47 occasions. Jesus Chist was crucified by the jews for blasphemy and Joseph was mocked and murdered because he testified on many accasions of the risen Christ and of his many latter day appearances. Denying this by modern Christendom without seriously investigating it through prayer and real intent study will also hold those accountable who ignorantly and prejudiciouly run him down and try to rationalize the true facts away.

I was there a month ago and there was no attempt at concealing the guns when I was given the tour.

@FaVeritas

Жыл бұрын

Yes, if you look you will notice this video is 16 YEARS old. Things have changed since the Internet has brought all of this information to light. The church must admit to these details. When I visited 20 years ago nothing was mentioned about it.

I am coming to the knowledge that something is not right with what the church teaches about the history of the church. However, I’ve wondered if something just went amiss after Joseph died? I feel like Brigham changed and doctored s lot of Joseph’s journals and the D&C. My question is, do you have hard evidence that Joseph actually married all these women he is accused of marrying? Or did Brigham, John Taylor, and others change this history after Joseph died?

"And ye shall know THE TRUTH, and THE TRUTH shall make you free." John 8:32

I have no problem with Joseph Smith trying to defend himself and his friends with a pistol, and I agree that church historians should acknowledge it. If that negates his status as a "martyr," then that term has no meaning.

@eag11e Decoded, it reads: “I was taken in to the lodge J Smith was Agness”. The abbreviation “was” means “wedded and sealed”. This marriage was kept a secret. Again, this marriage took place without the required consent of Emma. It also, took place 2 full years before joe wrote his revelation commanding polygamy. Another side note is that Agnes was only 33 years old. Despite some that would characterize joe's wifes as "old spinsters". Clarissa Marvel reveled to Emma the secret marriage.

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 15:5 - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing

"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can." - old white hat, joe smith

In the end everyone will know the truth of Joseph Smith, it was told by the Saviour that both good and bad would be said of His prophet Joseph Smith. Truth shall prevail.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's. clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Outlaw, Dr. Mike Quinn was one of the "September Six" who was excommunicated from the LDS Church. Do you know who the "September Six" are? Of all the Mormon historians Dr. Michael D. Quinn is very likely the most knowledgeable historian of Mormon history who is living.

Thank you so much for this video man

Wow, i had no idea! I know others would not know either.

"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can." joe smith, "old white hat"

Thank you Bill McKeever for this calm, well informed historical review of the facts. You have done a service to our society with this analysis.

@energymarketchile Thank you for your comments. I am also saddened that the religion I was an active member of lies to it's members. There is no joy in this. But, realizing the truth is an important and hard step to make. With your background in the church it is hard and painful to walk away. I hope that all mormons may one day see and know the truth. Good luck to you, Sir!

Great video. As a close non Mormon relative of Emma Hale Smith and many others who lived and knew Joseph in his New York years, all one has to do is look at the testimony of Emma's father, an upstanding man from an outstanding colonial lineage, and a respected community leader who tried to help Joseph despite his dislike and well founded distrust of him. Right there is enough of the story that you see Joseph's true character. However, the naive and God fearing followers are our kinfolk, especially the women taken so far away from their families at very young ages.

Something just occurred to me…I feel really slooow intellectually that I’ve never thought of it before….were JS and Hiram not wearing their garments? I thought they were meant to be bullet proof.

Why is it so scary for active LDS to understand the true history? Yes, I've had to realize that there were hundreds of false ideas in was taught in the 80's, but I also never believed that prophets should be seen as god's. They aren't. Period. End of story, but they aren't supposed to be. That's worshiping an idol. I like knowing the truth and I in doing think people should be exed for wanting the truth to be told instead of false fairytales. Disciples of Christ should be able to handle it I would think.

Went there in the 60's. Walked around the framed glass covering the blood stain. Visited there multiple times. Heard of the "gun fight". Saw the two rooms. One for prisoners which where laid out wrong and had to have the cages rehung. Heard the story of Joseph being a Mason and yelling to another Masonic brother, in " code words".just in case there would be someone to help him. The jailer helped them and warned them. Guess it depends on which person is telling the story. As for all of his wives, we were told Emma didn't know. Or he didn't tell her. Too funny right! Then we were told one young one was living with them and Emma could no longer take it and threw her out. Guess she knew. 😆

What a video! Thank God for the internet today

My mission is to encourage all members to read “Rough Stone Rolling”, “No Man Knows My History” and “ Studies of the BOM”. Please, make a plan.

@endofus Yes thankyou for the reply. I grew up LDS. My parents really believed and dedicated their whole lives to the religion. Now as an adult I am finding lots of information about the early church that is disturbing to me. Many of these things are covered up or just not taught in the Mormon church.It appears that Joseph was a womanizer and his business practices questionable. It looks like he interpreted ancient egyptian papyrus incorrectly. I am heart broken and feel betrayed by mormons.

Lying for The Lord....? How can any Christian Church LIE??

Bill McKeever is an American author and critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). He serves with Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM), which he founded in 1979 in El Cajon, California with the hope of informing people about what he perceives as differences between Mormonism and mainline Christianity. His writings are also often focused on the claims of Joseph Smith, the founder and original leader of the Latter Day Saint movement.- Wikipedia

They were trying with all of their might to keep that door shut to prevent their own murders. Joseph used that gun only after hyrum was murdered and the gravity of the situation was obvious, the intent of the mob was murder. He shot 3 bullets through the door, allegedly killing 2 of the mob and wounding a third. That part of killing 2 men was heresay but if true is understandable in the circumstances.(next)

As for Emma, she was asked one day if the church was true. She answered yes it was but she wished it wasn't. Why would she say that? Because she endured trials you and I cannot understand or comprehend. Just like all the witnesses who held the gold plates, many of which left the church, some bitter to the church, they never, ever denied they had seen and touched the plates. What did they have to gain after they left the church? (next)

Joseph was a human being, being a prophet doesn't make him perfect or sinless, we all know that many prophets in the bible did in fact commit sins and they were punished for that. Joseph Smith, like everyone else will be accountable for what he did good or bad. I don't see how being a human being disqualify him from being a prophet of God, I know that there are sins that are very serious and cannot be easily forgiven.

This version makes MUCH more sense than the BS story they taught us in Sunday School . . .

The smuggled gun is no secret. You will find the story and a picture of it in the LDS Church's institute manual - the book they use to teach young single adults about Church History. You can find it here www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32502_eng.pdf?lang=eng at page 281.

I believe his pepperbox pistol and the derringer if I remember right is on display at the church museum in salt lake city. I saw it, and Ive heard the story about Joseph shooting at the mob. Why does that mean he was not a martyr?

I wonder do you feel the mountain meadows interesting to? You consider those men righteous?

So Joseph Smith and his brother had guns. What is the point? They were prisoners in great physical jeopardy. Smith never represented himself or his religion to be pacifists. He never renounced the right of self-defense. There are a great many things to question about Smith, but I just don’t see this as being one of them.

The glass blood stain with the frame WAS there. I remember that story emphatically from my visit to Carthage.

eag11e What is the reference for that Joeism? ("...catch me if you can") It sounds familar to me but can't place where it came from. Thanks.

It's not very fair or accurate to characterize what transpired at Carthage jail as a "gun fight". Attempting to win a dispute by gunning down your opponent before he guns you down is fundamentally different from getting rushed and brutalized by an angry mob (that outnumbers you by a ratio of 50 to 1), even if you manage to fire off a few self defense rounds first.

I wanted to get in the waters but after doing some research . I changed my mind mathew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people

I'm only about half way through this.. But I just have to say.. He firmly believes that Tanner said that Joseph had a gun and shot three men, but completely doubts and doesn't believe at all that Hyrum said "I'm a dead man" as he's falling, as per what Tanner said he said. . Why so Public and believing one thing he said and not another? More picking and choosing. Also.. He said "I know for a fact that I saw the blood stain framed on the floor.. I saw a picture of it." So laughable. Really? That proof wouldn't stand anywhere... That he saw a picture of it. And anyone with any sense would know it was most likely Hyrum's. I should have been writing down all of the other ridiculous things I've been hearing him talking about .. So funny how people just glom on to this stuff. There are so many half truths it's ridiculous. The history of this church... Good or bad.. Has No Effect on whether the Book of Mormon Is True. People are people.. I have read the Book of Mormon 4 tines... There is NO Way a single man just sat down and wrote this. Go read it for yourself... With a Sincere Heart.. Truthfully seeking for yourself.. Honestly seeking God's spirit to be with you so you'll know if it's true or not... Go ahead and read it. What are you afraid of? Go to www.mormon.org and get a free copy sent to you.. Read it..All of it.. And then ask God yourself if it's true. By the Power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things. The Book of Mormon Is True. It's an account of a people, a nation that lived here on this content hundreds of years before Christ's birth. In this record are accounts of these people. Prophets told of the coming of the Savior's Birth. They were given the signs of His birth.. And signs of His death. They believed and we're persecuted... After the Savior's death He visited these people.. And there's an account of it in this book. We believe the Bible.. We use it side by side with our Book of Mormon. We Love the scriptures.. All of them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Jesus Christ's Restored church.. Read the Book of Mormon.. And find out for yourself. I will not engage in any negative replies.. Just check what spirit is within you before you reply.. Is it dark and angry?? Then it's not from God.

Hey Jamie SNG. I do know something about Mormonism. I was LDS 33 years and since have spent 35 years researching LDS history. You don't like the implications of this video, so you attack it with venom. I'm sure you have a "testimony" that you've repeated enough times to block a mountain of facts, and you have all those "good feelings" that are the sure test of truth. What you lack are facts. This man is right on the money and has done his research. You make yourself look foolish by emotional outbursts backed by hot air.

No "temple" was ever in my heart--at least for the last 10 years when I resigned my LDS membership. There are a lot better ways to spend 25 million than on gaudy looking temples--Christ-like ways--temples that stand virtually vacant (except in Utah)--temples where the leadership has to BEG members to go. Truly a sick situation.

I'm not addressing the issue of whether exercising your right to self defense disqualifies you from being a martyr. I'm saying the term "gunfight" isn't very descriptive of the actual event and can be misleading to those unfamiliar with the facts. It's much more accurate to say that Joseph died at the hands of an angry mob while awaiting trail than to glibly say that he died in a gunfight. Yes, they both fired guns, but it was so one sided that it wasn't a "fight" in any meaningful way.

If I had seen God, and Christ himself (as Smith claims to have had seen them in a vision) I would have let the mob take me freely with my hands held apart so the bullet's wouldn't miss my heart... not with a six-shooter in my hands... guns- a-blazing.

+ jhglobal1 and to any other person questioning the three shots off saying that it couldn't be done because they had muskets...lol Joseph Smith Died what? 1844? well they had revolvers since 1835, Colt produced the first revolver that year so 9 years later you trying to tell me the Smith's did not have possession of such an instrument?

really? I've just joined the church, the members and leaders all seem to be very nice, friendly, honest, humble and sincere

What is not disputed is that a mob of about 200 men stormed a jail where 4 men who were AWAITING trial. The killed (murdered) two of them, one of who was completely unarmed and wounded another before they stood trial. So really where do your sympathies and allegiances lie - with a mob willing to murder men without a trial, including some who had not even been accused, or a group of 4 men who had recently sung "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief"

great vids keep up the true faith man well done

which books or research do you suggest. I am happy to learn anything. If you know some thing I don;t I want to know. Good Lord this should be interesting as their is not even a concensus on the Holy Bible

I couldn't locate the comment of CallMeOptimist to respond to it. It was my experience during my time in the Mormon Church that Joseph was spoken of more than Jesus Christ. But that was not my primary reason for leaving the church, which I eventually saw as not based on the Bible. In fact, many core Mormon beliefs, such as eternal marriage, baptism for the dead, multiple levels of heaven for different levels of believers, and the belief that man can become a god are contradictory to the sound doctrine of the Bible.

Okay, I have a question that may stir up some interest.......... If Joseph was displaying the masonic sign and the bullets he was shot by interrupted his attempt to finish his sentence of "O Lord my God"............... is there no help for the widows son." should we also make the assumption that Joseph would have known who the mob/men were, and that they too were Freemasons and would recognize the sign and the wording of the sign. If this is true, then Freemasons could have shot and killed Joseph. Freemasons would be breaking their oath to come to the aid of a brother. I personally believe that Freemasons and others wanted Joseph dead. They were nervous that Joseph would change Freemasonry. Others were nervous Joseph would run for President and win. Change slavery and religious tolerance across the Nation. He would also bring to light Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine giving legal means for the land to be rightfully brought back to the Native American. Joseph and The Book of Mormon taught that Native Americans had Israelite ancestry and if they were of a Judeo-Christian ancestry, the use of Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine would be illegal and so all the land would need to be returned to it's rightful owner, The Native First Nations. Freemasonry and American Greed were never going to allow this to happen. The sale of America was a scam but you hear nothing of this. In The Book of Mormon Jesus prophesy's of the land being returned to the remnant of Israel (3Nephi chapters 20-22) or in other words The Natives of North America. Joseph's enemies would have been very nervous. (Motive) The Book of Mormon teaches against secret combinations and the Murder of Joseph was certainly a secret combination.

Hello brother, Peace of Christ, it's been a while, what's new? :)

thanks for the video...very informative

Odd...my Church History class mentioned the smuggled guns. And I do believe they are on display in Carthage Jail...

Instructions given to those who take the tourists through Carthage Jail. "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story ".

Wheres the letters? Wheres your proof?

The mormon church built a monument at the Mountain Meadows Massacre site. it has a modest information center and a fairly factual description of the events. i visited the site about four or five years ago while playing a golf tournament in st. george ut. Horrifying event.

How can any lover of truth not LIKE this video??? Bill McKeever is wonderful! I want to give it TWO thumbs up!!!!

This is very deep and easy to misunderstand. I have been a Mormon or preferably a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints my whole life and no Brigham Young never taught that Adam was our Heavenly Father rather all prophets have taught that Adam in the pre-existence was Michael.

I've got something in common with you, smurff. I too am an old, retired fart. Probably spent as much time active LDS as you. RM, BIC, temple married, BYU, Gospel Doct teacher, 2nd coun bishopric etc, etc. Can I ask, Bro Smurff, where in LDS cannonical doctrine does it declare that the JoD is not doctrine and is not to be taken by the membership as doctrine or to be "cautious" with it. If such is NOT cannonized, could this be another case of a prophet (Kimball?) expressing his own opinion?

it's insane that people really believe in the religion of Mormonism...

So, where do I go to find this "evidence" and "understanding"? I got my information from LDS historical archives and Church History. You want me to go somewhere else for the truth?

Is Mountain Meadow a sacred mormon site by any chance?

That makes me think. I don't like sanitized history.

i'm just curious, how well does smyth do with the test of the prophets in Deuteronomy 18;21-22 does he fail bad or just a little bit i mean being someone who prophesied a lot of fake stuff like the temple in missouri and all the rest of the stuff he said god said would happen and never did. the cult says he was a prophet and a martyr but killing and lying just makes him a criminal and an adulterer right?

Why did you go take the tour so many times? Thats weird.

Objection1: The title is false and ironic. The story of the death of Joseph Smith at Carthage has been well-documented. There were numerous witnesses of the events before, at, and after Carthage jail events. Mr. McKeever re-tells the story of the death of Joseph Smith the way he - the ardent anti-Mormon - wants it to be told. But Mr. McKeever's story is NOT what the eye-witnesses have written and testified.

Sure. I'd be glad to talk about it--as I have done countless times in the past 6 or so years since I came to KZread. My exit centered around the Corporate status as well as the tax-exempt status of God's supposed "one true church". I didn't know much if anything about the many other problems my church (LDS) had (some of which are mentioned in this chat). I was deeply involved in the study of the Law (man's law as well as God's Law in areas that had nothing to do with Mormonism or religion).

Great video... you can't hide the truth and try to validate lies because the truth always comes out.

Thank You. That lends some clarity. So basically, This same Arguement can be applied to the Pope, Mosques, etc?

The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy: (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247) It is interesting to note that this section in the Doctrine and Covenants was in every single edition until 1876, when the Doctrine and Covenants first included section 132 justifying plural marriage. At that time the Mormon leaders inserted section 132, which permits a plurality of wives. Obviously, it would have been too contradictory to have

Compare Smith to Muhammed....

Joseph Smith's life speaks for itself - the historic record is clear and fair. There is no need to tell anything but the truth according to the historic record of the day.

Hey, maybe I could line you up! lol That was a good one!

Great video.

Your portrayal of the history is not quite accurate. There is no indication in the historical record that Joseph Smith was "furious" about the Expositor as is claimed in this video. He was however, terrified that by publishing this information prematurely that certain angry mobs would attack again as had previously occurred. The lawful and orderly destruction of the Printing Press was a result of a vote by the Nauvoo City Council, not Joseph Smith. This was a perfectly legal action at the time, to preserve the peace and avoid further violence that the city council feared that the Expositor would generate. Mormons make no claim as the the reasons why polygamy was practiced. The reasons were diverse, and no single marriage was the same. To state that all polygamous marriages were to raise up seed is an over generalization of a very complex issue. The sealings of the 10 women who were already married were not sexual relationships. After being sealed these women continued to live with their own husbands. Women were given the right to choose to whom they would be sealed. One woman was 14 years of age, however this was not unheard of in the US in the 1800s. Nine percent of marriages that occurred in the 1800s to teens, were to men who were 35 years of age. Is it really relevant that Joseph Smith was carrying a pistol for his personal protection? Not really. Joseph was not carrying a smuggled gun into Carthage because technically he was not supposed to be a prisoner. It does not in any way make his death any less of a martyr attempting to defend himself. I wonder if any of the Early Christian martyrs fought back? Would that matter? Of course not, and they did fight back. The whole basis for this ridiculous argument: that Joseph Smith fighting back somehow diminishes the Early Christian martyrs, is based entirely on your negative feelings toward Smith and probably the church in general. By the way, it is not implausible that the guards would let in an assassin since the guards were Carthage Grays and were a hostile militia force, you failed to mention that little tidbit of information. The Word of Wisdom was enforced differently in the 19th century than today. Observance of the Word of Wisdom has changed over time, due to on-going revelation from modern-day prophets, who put greater emphasis on certain elements of the revelation originally given to Joseph Smith. Early Latter-day Saints were not under the same requirements as today's Saints are. The saints at the time of Joseph Smith only forbid drinking of strong drinks. Wine was not forbidden if it was used in careful moderation. The endowment ceremony was created prior to Joseph becoming a mason, not after. Oh please... Your attempt to paint the church as untrustworthy for not emphasizing certain points of its history is extraordinarily hypocritical. Every religious organization, that actually has a history that is, does the same thing because the spiritual truths are not dependent upon knowing weather or not Joseph Smith had a gun. Do you talk about the points of doctrine that incited the Salem Witch Trials during church meetings? Of course not. And it is foolish to hold the LDS church to that unreasonable standard. There are some things that are simply not relevant for the context of the situation. This hardly constitutes "airbrushing", since a lot of this information came from books published by the church, as you yourself admit. In any case, after the destruction of the Press Joseph Smith was arrested for inciting a riot against the press. 13 June 1844 The Nauvoo municipal court released Joseph on a writ of habeas corpus, finding that the charge of “riot” was unsubstantiated since the destruction of the press had been orderly. 14 June 1844 Thus cleared, Joseph Smith (as mayor) took his seat as judge over the municipal court, and cleared all others charged the day following his own release. This recurrent mix of religious, executive, and judicial power again infuriated the anti-Mormons. 17 June 1844 Joseph and others consented to be brought before another court, headed by a (then non-Mormon) justice of the peace, Daniel H. Wells. Wells again discharged them, but did not have the authority to acquit them. 18 June 1844 Joseph Smith declares martial law in Nauvoo and calls out the militia to protect the city from anti-Mormon mobs. 22 June 1844 Governor Ford writes to tell Joseph that he must face charges before the same judge that issued the writ for his arrest, because only this will appease the public. This requires Joseph to appear in a very hostile community, where feelings against the Mormons run high. 23 June 1844 Joseph and Hyrum leave Nauvoo to seek refuge over the Mississippi. Some members appeal to Joseph to return, believing (contrary to Joseph’s promise) that the members of the Church would be despoiled and driven out if he did not. Joseph agrees to return, stating, “If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself.” Governor Ford guaranteed the safety of Joseph and others if they went to Carthage 25 June 1844 the state governor (Thomas Ford) believed that only a state trial would calm the furor over the Expositor. Joseph and fifteen others therefore received guarantees of safety and presented themselves in Carthage. They were freed on bail pending the October arrival of the circuit court. However, Joseph and Hyrum were jailed by a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Greys militia. Joseph and Hyrum were accompanied to the jail by John Taylor, Willard Richards, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, and John S. Fullmer. The latter three left to run errands, and were not readmitted, leaving only Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards. 26 June 1844 Governor Ford meets with the prisoners. He then disbands all the militia companies, except the hostile Carthage Greys. Governor Ford left the hostile Carthage Greys to guard the jail. 27 June 1844 Ford leaves for Nauvoo, leaving two companies of Carthage Greys to guard the jail, while Ford takes a third to Nauvoo. He did not keep his promise that the prisoners could go with him to Nauvoo. After Ford’s departure, the discharged Warsaw militia company attacked the jail. The Carthage Greys gave only token resistance; they had loaded their weapons with gunpowder but no bullets. The Warsaw company stormed the jail, and murdered Joseph and Hyrum. John Taylor was severely injured; Willard Richards was unharmed. en.fairmormon.org/Question:_What_is_the_timeline_of_events_that_led_to_Joseph_Smith%27s_death_in_Carthage%3F

You should approach everything with an open mind and do your own research besides just following blindly and then come to your own conclusions. Not saying this guy knows what he is talking about. As a Mormon, I find it interesting how many of us think it is ok to condemn and judge just because they don't agree or believe the same as Mormons. Just as bad as the anti Mormons are for attacking the Church. Get over it and practice what you preach.

If you want to know anything about Mormonism, as an ex-Mormon, we will tell you all you need to know.

To the Mormon with the alias of Jose Andreas Molina who private emailed me telling me I know nothing about what I said and that I haven't read or understood Ephesians 4:11 lol, ok you quoted that scripture to me about priesthood as such, tell me, in relation to eph 4:11 what does evangelism mean to you?

Wednesday, March 16. - I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree. (History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.552)- joseph smith

A lot of Mormon history is altered when taught to members and investigators, or is not taught at all. In the Mormon church, members are warned to avoid all literature/arguments given that goes against church teachings, saying that it's a tool of Satan and will tear down their spirit. It goes without saying that this makes giving people the truth very difficult.

I agree, it's even in the Primary Sunday School manual (for kids 4-7) or at least it was when I taught primary a couple of years ago.

I'm not quite understanding what you are saying.. I am sorry. Joseph Smith's act? Or the man speaking? I take the side of Missouri in the prosecution of Joseph Smith. I don't like to see anyone killed, but if you read my comment below, I was asking what the difference between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs is?

Wow! Thank you for the kind words, eag11e! Our paths have crossed several times and I am always impressed with your breadth of knowledge on LDS history and doctrine. I have learned a lot from your articulate descriptions and explanations as well as your obvious care and concern you hold for our Mormon brothers and sisters. It always a pleasure to read your informed posts. May the Great God of heaven continue to inspire you and keep you and yours well!

Absolutely TRUE! ...and have been richly blessed ever since.

Mormonsmurff Also, sir, can you explain to us why it took so long between Brigham's false doctrine (7 or 8 prophets who communicate with God daily) and Kimballs declaration that JOD/AG was not doctrine. That's near a hundred years (and probably a couple million members) during which many LDS folks were led to believe Brigham's A/G doctrine. Yet Benson (I think it was?) declared that God would not allow his prophet to lead His children astray. What BY did was EXACTLY that--100 years worth.

Great video. Seems like he was objective in his historical research.

"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Smith sent out a mob to attack others who were dissidents against Smith. He used the police power to persecute those who were criticizing HIS abuses of power. For this act of violence & tyranny he was arrested. While being held for his terrible crimes, he is in turn attacked by such a mob. A mob which was arroused by there fear of Smith's Nauvoo Legion, whihc had been used in the earlier act of violence. A wretched sordid story.

hey im in your team. Ive just been reading your other posts china, Eag11e , helped me out heaps disregard any of my possibly negative messages. Peace

Jehoiada. Some interpretations also suggest Moses had a second wife in Tharbis. Other polygamists identified in the Bible include Ahab, Ahasuerus, Ashur, Belshazzar, Benhadad, Caleb, Eliphaz, Ezra, Jehoiachin, Jehoram, Jerahmeel, Joash, Machir, Manasseh, Mered, Nahor, Shaharaim, Simeon, and Zedekiah. I guess my question would be why is it alright for all these christians to have many wives but not ok for the mormon guy. is it about morality or the law? please help me out.

Glad I'm Free from the LDS church

The full, true story of Joseph Smith's death planted the seed that grew into a wedge that drove me out of the LDS Church after ten active years. If they had been honest and forthright from the beginning it would not have been a problem. I didn't leave my church because of an incident in 1844, I left because I was actively being misled.

Friday, June 22, 2012 Part 1 - A Case for Joseph Smith; A Case Against Polygamy A Case for Joseph Smith; A Case Against Polygamy By Benjamin R. Horton Part 1 A Review of the Book: Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price[1] “Inasmuch as this church has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband.” - D&C 101 (1835 and 1844 editions) (revelation dated, December 16, 1833) “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.” - Joseph Smith (LDS History of the Church, 6:410-411) “And again, I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry, is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man: wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation: and that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.” - Joseph Smith “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” - John 8:32 Introduction “Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.”[2] Most LDS[3] and non-LDS scholars largely accept that Joseph Smith had between twenty-seven to forty-nine wives (most claim around thirty-four). See www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/. As semi-officially recognized by the LDS Church, Joseph’s first polygamous wife was allegedly Fanny Alger who supposedly married Joseph at the young age of sixteen. Although undocumented, the marriage of Fanny and Joseph most likely took place in Kirtland, Ohio sometime in 1833. She would have been sixteen years old. At the time, Fanny was living in the Smith home, perhaps helping Emma with house work and the children. Ann Eliza Webb recalls, “Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem.”[4] Shockingly, Fanny Alger was not the youngest alleged wife of Joseph Smith. Helen Mar Kimball was purportedly only fourteen when she claimed to have married Joseph Smith in May 1843 (Joseph would have been thirty-seven). According to Ms. Kimball: “[Joseph explained] the principle of Celestial marriage . . . After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.”[5] When I first learned of Fanny’s and Helen’s FALSE claims (which are not disputed by the LDS Church), I was spiritually distraught. Because the LDS Church did not dispute these claims in any manner, I assumed Fanny and Helen were telling the truth. Having served a two-year mission for the LDS Church in Russia and being ignorant of the extent of Joseph’s purported reprehensible polygamous deeds, I often engaged in spiritual acrobatics to explain polygamy as the issue regularly arose. My most common defense was that polygamy was part of an arcane “restitution of all things” or was necessary to raise “a righteous seed,” practiced by only a very few, but that it was no longer necessary under God’s plan (I knowingly never mentioned the fact that LDS temples continue the practice of sealing more than one woman to the same man and that polygamy was officially sanctioned in Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants constituting a higher celestial law as accepted by modern Mormonism). Of course, I correctly emphasized that any current polygamist in the LDS Church was immediately excommunicated.[6] Notwithstanding my sincere but feeble efforts, and to my chagrin, many moral people refused to join the LDS Church because of their legitimate contempt for polygamy. Also, most converts joined the LDS Church without knowledge of its polygamist past (a material omission). It made no sense to me why God built his “perfect” church in such a manner to discourage good and upright people from joining His church. I was not the only missionary to share this sentiment - but missionaries were certainly not trained to question their authorities or raise the issue. Not surprisingly, many Mormons similarly view the polygamous doctrine with embarrassment and derision. The LDS Church, the repository of most of the records, largely evades any clear discussion of the doctrine as shown herein. For example, LDS Church manuals and other media brazenly omit any mention of Joseph’s (and Brigham’s) supposed other wives. It was not until after my mission that I became aware of the official but unspoken, shocking, and false position of the LDS Church regarding Joseph. Believing the stories of Fanny Alger and Helen Mar Kimball (as supported by the LDS Church), spiritual acrobatics no longer mattered, I rightfully refused to believe that God would instruct his so-called “Prophet” to marry a sixteen-year-old “very pretty, pleasing young girl” who was Joseph’s so-called “adopted daughter” in Joseph’s household, or that God would command Joseph (at thirty-seven) to marry a fourteen-year-old girl under the disingenuous promise of exaltation for her and her family. For me, God would not tolerate let alone command His chosen servant to engage in such adulterous and lascivious behavior. Based on these claims, I had no logical choice but to consider Joseph Smith an impostor and a morally corrupt monster that exploited young women to satisfy his wicked sexual desires. However, I was wrong about Joseph Smith! Several years later, I became aware of and read the book Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price. I discovered the truth about Joseph Smith and the origins of Mormon polygamy and the truth felt great. As Joseph stated in the King Follett sermon, “This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you.” Thank you Richard and Pamela Price for your extensive research on the subject! In short, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that Joseph Smith (and Hyrum Smith) did not engage in or support polygamy but vehemently fought and preached against polygamy until his death. Unknown to LDS members, polygamy did not originate with Joseph Smith, but originated with a polygamous sect known as the Cochranites[7] and other polygamous converts from England. Joseph Smith was the victim of a successful doctrinal conspiracy led primarily by Dr. John Bennett and Brigham Young. Moreover, Brigham shamefully but effectively led the effort to rewrite and cover-up Joseph’s history to such an extent to wrongfully convince the world that Joseph was the founder of polygamy in the LDS Church thereby forever damning the growth of the LDS Church. Why does it matter? Many ask why it matters whether Joseph Smith practiced and founded polygamy. First, if Joseph was adamantly opposed to polygamy and not its originator, as the evidence strongly shows, then Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, et al. perpetrated a manifest fraud against God, Joseph Smith, the LDS Church, and the world. No moral man should view these men as God’s chosen but as vile men, adulterers, and slanderers whose lies contributed to the murder of Joseph Smith and were in fact the greatest hindrances to the spread of Joseph’s true doctrine - i.e., millions of virtuous people will have nothing to do with Joseph Smith because of the lies of these men. Second, if Joseph Smith did in fact vehemently oppose polygamy, Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants (as provided by Brigham Young under very dubious circumstances) is a patent forgery by Brigham Young and that any continued practice of polygamy in the temples of the LDS Church constitutes an abomination as taught by Joseph Smith. Any claim that polygamy is a so-called higher law in heaven is undoubtedly false and all other doctrines originating with Brigham Young must be viewed with extreme skepticism. Further, all other polygamous communities outside the LDS Church that also believe in Section 132 and the teachings of Brigham Young must likewise abandon their fraudulent belief system. Third, it is probable that the current leaders of the LDS Church are aware of (or knowingly remain ignorant of) Brigham’s fraud and nevertheless continue to support Brigham as a great “Prophet” when in fact they may know Brigham was a debase liar and a tyrant. Why would the current leadership of the LDS Church knowingly continue to support the treacherous Brigham Young? - In order to protect the current leaderships’ specious claim to the priesthood keys of God’s kingdom. Fourth, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (now commonly known as the Community of Christ), including Emma Smith and Joseph Smith III, were correct in their assessment of Brigham Young and the false doctrines of the LDS Church. The LDS Church should formally apologize to the Reorganized Church (Community of Christ) and attempt to bridge the fallacious chasm the polygamists created between these two churches. Finally, at the very least, if the chain of priesthood authority is broken (how could the keys of the kingdom pass through the lies, deceit, adultery, and lasciviousness of Brigham Young and others), the current President of the LDS Church, Thomas S. Monson, is no more a prophet than Pope Benedict XVI (who supposedly received his authority through a series of contemptible Popes). Any claim that the LDS Church, as founded on the lies of Brigham Young, is God’s true and only church is plainly false and should be rejected. I do not consider myself an enemy of the LDS Church but a truth seeker. I firmly believe the LDS Church has done many wonderful things in the world and has many wonderful doctrines that contribute to a better and healthier people. As a missionary, I personally saw many lives become better through the LDS Church’s respectable teachings. However, the false histories and doctrines of the LDS Church must be shunned and discarded in the most open and repentant matter before the LDS Church can gain its integrity and earn a rightful place as a Christian church. Please read this discussion (10 Parts) and evaluate the evidence and decide for yourself whether Joseph was innocent of polygamy. If my position is correct, as the evidence shows, Joseph Smith certainly deserves to have his reputation as a virtuous and monogamous man restored. SUMMARY • Not one child has been discovered through DNA evidence to be the issue of Joseph's alleged polygamous relationships (yet Joseph purportedly had thirty-four wives, thirteen of which claimed that Joseph's relationships were sexual). Further, Joseph had several children with Emma during this time. In contrast, Brigham Young had fifty-six children. •Chauncey L. Higbee, a lawyer, was able to exploit young women by claiming that Joseph Smith secretly sanctioned polygamy. On May 24, 1842, Joseph Smith, under oath, sued Higbee in the State of Illinois for slander related to his claims that Joseph was a polygamist. Clearly, Joseph would not sue an attorney in a state where polygamy was illegal - because truth is the ultimate defense to a slander cause of action. Higbee would have undoubtedly defended Joseph's suit by claiming that Higbee's allegations of Joseph's polygamous "secret doctrine" and practice were true. Either Joseph was insane and an intrepid liar, willing to bet his freedom that the Illinois court would not discover the "secret" truth, or Joseph only brought the slander claim against Chauncey because Joseph was truly innocent of polygamy. •Joseph repeatedly and unequivocally denounced polygamy (please read through the many quotes provided herein) as a vile and wicked practice up until the date of his death. One of his harshest sermons against polygamy occurred only one month and one day before his death ("I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives . . . I am innocent of all these charges . . . What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." LDS History of the Church 6:410-11). The LDS Church claims that Joseph had over thirty wives at this time - Nonsense! Either Joseph was one of the biggest liars in history (and sexually exploited young teenagers under the promise of exaltation) as the LDS Church purports, or Joseph was innocent of the polygamy charge and Brigham Young fraudulently altered Joseph's history to support Young's claim to leadership. •Many other leaders of the Church (nearly all) repeatedly, publicly, and unequivocally denounced polygamy up until the date of Joseph's death and denied that Joseph Smith was preaching any such doctrine, secret or otherwise. These Church leaders submitted affidavits and public statements attesting to Joseph's innocence. Either these Church leaders were liars, conspiring with Joseph in covering up polygamy as a "secret doctrine" as the LDS Church claims, or they were telling the truth and Joseph was innocent of polygamy. •Polygamy did not originate with Joseph Smith, but with a polygamous sect known as the Cochranites, many of which were converted to Mormonism (Brigham married one of the Cochranites). These polygamous practices were adopted by Dr. John C. Bennett, Brigham Young, and others. Joseph took substantial measures to expel those known individuals practicing polygamy (Brigham's polygamy remained a secret). •Material paragraphs of Section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants were intentionally deleted by Brigham Young when Brigham introduced Section 132 under very spurious circumstances. Section 101 (1835 edition) stated: "Inasmuch as this church has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband." Unbelievably, Section 132 was provided by Young (supposedly a revelation of Joseph Smith's) eight years after Joseph's death and not in Joseph's handwriting. •Brigham Young led the conspiracy to alter LDS Church history and even Joseph's personal journal in order to bolster his claim that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith. On April 1, 1845, Young brazenly recorded the following: "I commenced revising the History of Joseph Smith at Brother Richard's office: Elder Heber C. Kimball and George A. Smith were with me." Other polygamists, under Young's control and direction, submitted false affidavits decades after Joseph's death to further claim that Joseph revealed polygamy. Please continue to Part 2 (www.confessionsofanelder.blogspot.com/2012/06/case-for-joseph-smith-case.html)

so is the speaker still mormon or has he left?

If I had seen God, and Christ himself (as Smith claims to have had seen them in a vision) I would have let the mob take me freely with my hands held apart so the bullet's wouldn't miss my heart... not with a six-shooter in my hands... guns- a-blazing.

A lot of people need this knowledge. Thank-you.

Who is this man speaking?

And I'll ask you a question you'll never get your head around. If prophets can publically state their personal opinions (from pulpits and written text) how do you know when they speak of themselves and when they speak for God? This places them (apostles/prophets) in the position of not being 100% trusted to speak for god. Was Joseph speaking as a man or for God when he related his "First Vision"?--all 4 or 5 DIFFERING versions?? How do YOU tell the diff. btwn opinion and god's word?

Interesting how the propaganda piece " prophet of the reformation" completely ignores all this

Instead of praying about the BOM and feeling that it's true (burning bosom) I tested it against the Bible. What I found was that whoever wrote the BOM unknowingly copied some KJV translation errors into it's text. The 1611 KJV translators made some translation errors. Whoever wrote the BOM plagiarized extensively from the KJV and unknowingly copied some of its translation errors into the BOM text (often times verbatim). This proves the BOM is not the ancient record Smith claimed it to be.

when Joseph F. Smith issued the "Second Manifesto." Neither Joseph Smith or any other Nauvoo-period Mormons contested the Illinois law; to the contrary, Smith and other Mormons practiced illicit polygamy in secret, and steadfastly denied either teaching or practicing polygamy. Smith and other Nauvoo polygamists also routinely slandered and assassinated the characters of people who tried to expose their polygamy practice. (next)