Be VERY careful if baking in the S-Log3 LUT. For a start it's a 33x cube LUT, so the image brightness range is divided into 33 steps and the poor interpolation between each step in the camera means there is a greatly increased risk of banding across even surfaces such as a blue sky or plain walls. You probably won't notice this while shooting and using a small monitor, but it may well show up in post. The next issue is that if the reason for doing this is because whoever is doing the post doesn't understand how to grade or compensate for differing exposure indexes in post, then it is likely that they will simply be adding a LUT to your footage to "grade" it. So, you will increase the propensity to have banding in the footage still further. A LUT on top of a LUT is never a good idea in any workflow. A further issue is that if you use an EI lower than base, the recording range is artificially reduced by the LUT and full output will not be achieved - look at the waveform, you will see the recording range reduce as you lower the EI below the base ISO. If a normal LUT is then added to this decreased range in post the highlight roll off will be incorrect unless you correct the input range prior to the addition of the LUT. Your highlights won't be as nice as they should be and your peak output won't reach 100%.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

Thank you, Alister!

@watchvideosoul

Жыл бұрын

Came here to say this (having probably learned it from you) and glad to see you've already raised this issue here!

Holy crap. That is a great idea. I constantly have that issue with external editors and this never occurred to me. Thanks for sharing.

Nice idea. Really cool. Thank you for sharing it.

As an editor who edits in Resolve, and someone who shot on Sony for years, it still amazes me when folks don't know the over exposure on Sony was intention to retain clean shadows. I've been using Alister's compensation luts for years and even made my own when doing basic conversions or handing off footage, but now in Resolve I just take the extra second to group all Sony shots and pre apply exposure compensation. It's really easy once you know.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, most corporations and networks seem to still be stuck in Premiere...

@alisterchapman

Жыл бұрын

@@robchado You can use offset LUTs and compensation LUTs in Premiere just as easily as Resolve. Simply supply post with a LUT designed for the EI you shot at. The FX3 and FX30 can now already embed the LUT to the video clips as metadata and the FX6 will do this from version 4. The FX6/9 cameras already have the necessary metadata to allow for automatic EI correction and this is now implemented in Resolve and Catalyst. It just needs Adobe to catch up.

@Studio23creation

Жыл бұрын

we realy don't need to do ETTR on newer sony cameras now. Actually i would not recomend it. Expose it how you want it to look like on your external monitor with a monitoring lut (and making sure of course that everything's allright regarding histogram, zebra, waveforms).

@olivierdacosta_

Жыл бұрын

​@@alisterchapman i thought it was implemented for catalyst and premiere. But is it for resolve ?

I’m using EditeReady to export a LUT baked-in. I much prefer to have a log archive of the footage than baking-in, in camera. Would be nice if EditeReady would implement an exposure offset option which could work when using Cine-EI offsets.

I'm so confused how editors can get this wrong. If the owner/operator used an external monitor that had a S-LOG3 to REC709 conversion LUT, I don't understand how editors can get it wrong in post? With the Sony FX6's MXF system, Final Cut Pro automatically applies the REC709 conversion LUT once you import the footage.

I bake in S-log3 a lot on my FX9, simply because its the only way to record at 400iso when shooting in log (or get a nice clean 2000iso at the high base). Sometimes I like shooting at lower than base ISO in order to get cleaner shadows, knowing that I lose a little DR in the highlights. That tradeoff is fine with me in some scenarios. Coming from Blackmagic, its still crazy to me I have to do this strange work-around in order to change my ISO. Baking in S-log3 LUT works, but I wish it had a 'Flexible ISO' mode.

I’m so excited to see if it really is an easy transition from the FX6 for you. Let us know!

Yep, this is a real problem. I work around it either by developing all the footage myself before sending it or by communicating directly with the editor. I do realize, however, that on bigger productions those are not valid options.

I would bake in a LOOK over doing this method as the resultant image is going to have banding and won't be as useable if production does inevitably hire a colourist. If a production can't hire a colourist then the project isn't really worth my time to begin with. Granted, I don't shoot on Sony too often. I shoot with red most the time where you can change the ISO, just not during a take, and the editor can have a LUT that you can enable or disable in the raw, but when I shoot prores, I usually bake in the LOOK.

Whats your take on phantom luts

so, when using a lut, you wont be able to see the 709 on the camera monitor like the FS7? I have an fs7 but all this its making me doubt upgrading. do you also have the flexibility of changing all the color hue etc like the fs7??

@robchado

11 ай бұрын

If you select an output LUT, you'll be able to see it on the onboard monitor. In this instance my selected LUT is SLOG3, which is why it's showing LOG on the monitor. You have much more control over WB rather than picking 3200, 4300, and 5500.

@OliverCooper-qg6yc

11 ай бұрын

@@robchado so you cant use slog 3 and see your custom lut on the camera monitor? or if I connect via hdmi to a computer would i see the output with the custom lut?

Do you still have the post flexibility of colour grading if you’d bake the Slog LUT in?

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

It would be the same amount of flexibility as if you just shot LOG.

@JusttJC

Жыл бұрын

@@robchado really? Wow that’s a no brainier then🔥 Thank you!

@alisterchapman

Жыл бұрын

No you don't. While you do still have the same S-Log3 curve because you have now added a 33x cube LUT to the footage (which divides the brightness range into 33x steps) there will be more banding/step artefacts baked into the recording. If you then add another LUT in post you will have a LUT on top of a LUT and that's never a good idea and there will be a much greater risk of seeing steps across smooth gradients. However you do it, baking in any LUT and then grading on top of the LUT will introduce more grade limiting artefacts.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

@@alisterchapman Thank you for the clarification.

I have the FS7, do you remember the steps to bake in the LUT?

@aleksanderhaugdal2060

Жыл бұрын

you go into system settings then you have to enable "rec ei apply"

Supposedly, upcoming (or newly-released?) versions of Premiere promise to better handle log in a more plug-and-play fashion. We'll see if it's as simple as they claim. Right now it's not, and that could be why some of your shots were sent out that way. Supposedly Resolve already does a good job of automatically transforming log to the intended colorspace.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

For me it's less about colorspace and more about exposure. If a shot is rated 2 stops over, there's no way for the editor/software to know that without communicating from the DP. Most of the time there's just a break in communication as soon as the footage is handed off to post.

@heyty

Жыл бұрын

@@robchado I missed that part, makes sense! Since I switched from FS7 to FX6, I haven't been offsetting my footage at all. I have, however, had editors send my log footage all the way through to the final edit. Which amazes me every time.

@Sweatmonkey513

Жыл бұрын

@@robchado I don’t see MLUT for my Fx3 what am I supposed to do now?

@Studio23creation

Жыл бұрын

@@robchado hello ! why do you overexpose 2 stops on FX6? the ETTR era is over now ;)The image is so clean even in shadows when you expose it normally. And you have the internal NDs.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

@@Studio23creation I typically overexpose when I'm working with the high base ISO.

I feel like cine-ei is needlessly complicated to the point of not being worth time and effort. I understand why it exists and I think it propably works great for high-end narrative, but not for anything else.

@rorycowieson5924

Жыл бұрын

It’s really not complicated. I don’t get why everyone is so confused by it.

@FabianPourmand

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, it’s pretty simple to understand. Especially if you shoot on Red lol

@LARENT

Жыл бұрын

Been shooting cine-ei since the FS7 and I almost never shoot anything else anymore. The workflow is actually quite simple and very flexible.

@watchvideosoul

Жыл бұрын

The issue is not that it's complicated. The issue is that people don't take the time to learn how to do it properly and just assume it works like ISO. Particularly prevalent with people who come from a background of stills cameras (using ISO) or broadcast cameras (using Gain). But anyone who comes from a film background should understand it straight away. Anyone who doesn't should learn, and not assume.

Why not just record in Slog instead of using cine ei?

@olindamedia

8 ай бұрын

Because then you can't shoot at below base ISO's

Haha I thought I was the only one with this issue ie external editors. Sometimes I will even leave a note with the producers that the footage needs to be brought back down.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

What I've usually done in the past is email a LUT over to the producer so they can forward it over to the editor. That seems to work most of the time.

This is definitely the Achilles heal of current Sony cams, and the only people who actually understand how CineEI works are owner/operators. I've met so many non-owner cam ops and DPs that think changing the ISO is actually changing something in the recording. It would be amazing if Sony would give us more monitoring options to go along with this hack. I don't want to look at log and I certainly don't want to send it out to all on set monitors. Sure, you could just load monitoring LUTs onto all of the extra monitors, but if you're traveling from city to city and managing a bunch of different rentals, that's the last thing anybody wants to deal with. Also, if I'm running and gunning with minimal weight, an extra on camera monitor is the first thing I'm pulling off the body. In that case, I have to commit to running exclusively at low and high base ISOs, with nothing in between... or say F it, and just shoot in Custom mode. There has to be a better way!

@Timist025

Жыл бұрын

For run and gun try doing this Slog3 LUT method but turn on gamma display assist so you can see rec709 preview monitoring on the stock viewfinder. If you are sending video signal to external monitors in say a video village you could get a blackmagic micro converter bi directional 12g and put an slog3 to rec709 lut in that to convert log to rec709 before it reaches video village. You can load luts into the 12g micro converter so that could be at the end of your signal chain before the video village monitor.

As a colorist I WANT the DP part of the conversation. And as a DP I WANT to be part of the colorist convo if it’s not me

I think you're better off shooting in S-Cinetone then...But indeed, i don't understand why Sony doesn't include a flexible ISO mode on the FX6, very frustrating.

People see content not colours

This shouldn't be a problem if a colorist is involved.

@robchado

Жыл бұрын

Most times a colorist isn't involved. I've also had projects where the "colorist" didn't correct to back to normal exposure.

@cinematools9621

Жыл бұрын

​@@robchado I understand your point. I'm on the post side of things for the most part and receiving a baked-in LUT is making our life much harder.

Before I'll ever bake in a LUT, I talk to people and tell them to be aware of Cine EIs quirks. I feel like you should never bake in a LUT...