to be honest, my main concern with healing being worth using in combat is pacing, if healing is good then combat lasts 40-50% longer, which draaaags

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I'm not sure that's as much of a concern to me as attacking still, more often than not at least, is going to be the "better" choice. Certain encounters may get slightly longer, but I don't think anywhere near the realm of 40-50% longer. It's worth noting that the enemies that would be healing each other would also be spellcasters and if they're doing that, they're not killing you and since players tend to have the edge in action economy anyway, I'm not sure this is a huge issue. But definitely a great point to make for sure! Pacing of combat is really important to consider!

@EpicRandomness555

7 ай бұрын

I mean most enemies you faces aren’t going to be using healing on themselves, and healing your party members doesn’t make the game take longer it keeps them alive. A character dying doesn’t make the combat faster it’s an emergency. If healing spells are better then people can spend less turns healing their friends and actually be faster.

@JottoHearthStone

7 ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck so I'll spare the wall of text, but accounting for a level 9 party, with the new mass heal, you are negating a roughly CR 12 monster's DPR for 1 action. (assuming 75% efficiency on 4 targets so nothing close to best case, this is currently 83HP healing in 1 action, or 110 for a life cleric) In the case of a medium strength encounter, the DPR expected for a CR9 encounter takes roughly 5 rounds to chew through the party's hp pool assuming all DPR hits, with a single mass heal in the middle of that combat, this increases to 7 rounds. Effectively trading 1 action for 2 rounds of the CR9 monster (or group), and giving your party +7 action economy (2 rounds 4 players minus the bard or cleric etc) If you include a 70% chance to hit, at level 14, power word fortify actually negates CR21 expected DPR for a single action, so we are actually getting into the realms of heal bot being efficient, trading a single heal spell for the entire encounter's damage output for a round, giving your party the chance to just wail on it. I'd also argue that without a really fast DM and group, 5e combat can already last a long ass time as is.

@ZarHakkar

7 ай бұрын

Longer combat means I get to use more cool monster abilities as the DM, it's a win for me.

@ODDnanref

7 ай бұрын

​@@JottoHearthStone Yeah, now a party that would lose DPR due to a player falling unconscious does not lose it. Meaning they get actually speed up combat.

I think something to consider about the mass spells that I think you missed, is that they do exactly half the dice of their single target counter parts casted at the same level. Mass cure wounds does 5d8 while cure wounds does 10d8. It’s the trade off from going from single big heal, to multi target smaller heal.

I don’t really think healing is quite there being satisfying yet, mainly because it still doesn’t fix the yoyo problem. As a player it gets kinda tedious and I wish being downed had a larger penalty such as requiring hit dice or exhaustion to get back up, so we really feel good trying to heal them before they go down in the first place. Funny enough it adds yet another layer to the caster privileges / advantages. But yeah the economy buff is an improvement.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I agree that I don't think it "solves" the yo-yo either. I think having better healing can certainly help though. If players are more incentivized to use their healing spells and not just wait until a player is already down, that's a win. Ultimately, this will come down to actual play and testing but I think it's certainly a step in the right direction.

@slydoorkeeper4783

7 ай бұрын

I actually really like the adds levels of exhaustion idea, especially with the changes to the exhaustion rule. Also adding each failure of a death save adds exhaustion. This would then further the incentive to not go down in combat by choosing better battles and strategies and healing in combat before the yoyo kicks in. Maybe have higher level healing remove a little bit of the exhaustion because things do happen from time to time (I've seen chain crits happen and its not fun against the players) and that would further reward needing to use/just using higher level slots to heal.

@Paws42

7 ай бұрын

​@@slydoorkeeper4783as long as it's the OneDnD version of exhaustion, I'd like that change. But 2014 exhaustion would be far too punishing

@daltigoth3970

7 ай бұрын

@@slydoorkeeper4783 I've implemented exhaustion on getting downed (the OneDnD version) in some of my campaigns, with one level of exhaustion gained from this being removed on the next short rest. Only one level can be removed by a short rest, and only at the next short rest after it is gained, thus if you got downed 3 times in a fight and have 3 levels of exhaustion as a result, you can only bring that down to 2 levels of exhaustion through short rest. Remaining levels of exhaustion can only be removed with a long rest in a "safe" location, such as an inn or a with a well-guarded caravan, and only 1 level of exhaustion is removed with each long rest. This makes keeping your allies on their feet more important and makes taking short rests during the adventuring day more important as well. It also creates a mechanical reason for the party to stay in town for a few days after an adventure - they aren't going back out again until all levels of exhaustion are cleared unless there is a narrative reason for them to press on sooner than that. So it also creates downtime for the party, which many campaigns overlook entirely, and presents a lot more space for social encounters to happen. To balance the poor healing abilities in 5e against the damage output of monsters, I increased the upcasting effects of the spells. At level 1, a heal of 1d4+3 or whatever from Healing Word is already restoring about half a character's HP, while Cure Wounds can possibly heal all of their HP in one go, so they didn't need to be buffed at that level. My variation of Cure Wounds does 1d8+spellcasting modifier for each spell level (effectively guaranteeing at least 4-6 more HP healed per spell level, with an average increase of 10), instead of only adding 1d8 for each additional spell level. Healing Word adds the spellcasting modifier again for every 2 levels it is upcast (e.g. at 3rd level, it heals 3d4+WIS+WIS), so that Cure Wounds is the more effective spell to upcast, but Healing Word still has utility as a ranged heal and is sometimes worth upcasting. Similar adjustments were made to other healing spells. The only healing ability that got somewhat nerfed by my homebrew was the paladin's lay on hands, as it promoted the idea of healing just 1 HP to get someone back on their feet. I made it so that the healing had to be done in increments of 5, but I also buffed the ability by making it so that the paladin could pull the recipient of lay on hands up to their feet and move them to any space adjacent to the paladin in the act of healing them, so they at least wouldn't be left lying prone from being at 0 HP, or could simply be pulled away from harm, giving the ability a little more tactical use as well.

@latios3874

7 ай бұрын

At a table I once ran, we had it so that we used Healing surge rules, however if your target by a healing spells, you can immediately use your reaction to use your once per long rest surge. This way if someone is down, and they eat brought back up, they can use healing surge to give them a larger buffer to not go down again assuming they haven’t used all their hit dice this day

I would solve the heal-yoyo problem by changing the game's behavior at being downed: Keep tracking HP as it goes into negative values, require healing all the negative HP to get back into positive and get up. Now it makes sense to heal a player with 1hp left, even with no chance of staying up after the next blow after being healed, as it'll help bring them back up afterwards - and may minimize the injuries they sustain.

This might not be everyones fix, but in my games to fix the Death Yo-Yo effect, "if you go unconscious for any reason you take 1 level of exhaustion." Not a big deal as a long rest of a greater restoration will take a level off.

@wietse1113

7 ай бұрын

My game has this exact homerule, and everyone likes it. Makes dying a bit more meaningful, and gives players more strategic reasons to try and really avoid it. It also adds flavour to the roleplay.

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

@@wietse1113"dying" and "being downed" are 2 different things. Also, I hope that's 1 CUMULATIVE level of exhaustion and not just "you went down 3 times in this combat and so now you have 1 level of exhaustion that this nice cleric is going to remove immediately".

Personally in my games we made that you need to stabilise people that are downed before being able to heal them thus in battle healing is mandatory because if not, you need 2 action (stabilise+heal)to bring somebody back into the fight. if not using this rule I saw people being downed every turn brought back play their turn get downed and repeat ad nauseam until people run out of healing, they felt mor elike and undead being than an adventurer

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I can understand how you got there and why you created that rule but it almost feels punishing to the other players. They either need to dedicate two full actions to restoring someone, just for them to probably go down again, or complete the encounter being down an ally. Sure, it can incentivize more "careful" play, but sometimes that's even out of their hands.

@bernatgarcia6348

7 ай бұрын

I like to use a rule similar to that: If you heal someone who's not stabilized they gain a level of (2024 rulss) exhaustion. I find it prevents yo-yoing while not taking them out of combat, but there's still consequences.

@Kanjejou

7 ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck Indeed it is a possibility but I also usually am kind of nice with how you can heal somebody in combat, using potions can use bonus or a full action (with proficiency bonus on the healing) who ever is the targets, also can launch potions/dooze them with it to heal them. Also depending on the feel I and the player are looking for I often boosted most healing spells (so healing is not a wasted action) and temporari hit point effects effets... doubling the dice of most mono target heal spells. healing word doing 2d4+bonus (gaining 2dice per lvl) and cure wound is 2d8+bouns (and gain 2dice per lvl). also because short rest except in very specific moment are quite easy to do thus often in game I don't master player dont even use healing out of combat...they just quick/long rest and boom healing spells are never used... So i prefer my way of doing stuff and have healing more powerfull and more used than people looking at the action economy and go control or damage every time...healing? pointless! as long as I have 1 hp im fine! I will just go down to 0 be brought back by a lvl1 healing and be K

@Kanjejou

7 ай бұрын

@@bernatgarcia6348 could be an interesting effect instead of all the change I usually do(listed them above) so people do keep themselves away from going "as long as I have 1hp everythign is okay"...

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

@@KanjejouEven worse is when there's a paladin in the party who just keeps using 1 point of lay on hands to bring someone back. I miss the way that older versions of D&D did it where you had HP and you were bleeding out after you went below 0 so you had to heal the damage they'd taken below 0 and then it would take effect. Maybe I should just homebrew that into my game and see how my players like it. No more Death saving throws, now your character is just bleeding out at a rate of 1d6 per round and any healing they receive will heal that damage and potentially get them up. That would also stop people from just feeding a potion and thinking "good enough". My thought, given what I just suggested, is that you going down in combat is like you have a deep gash on your arm but you also have internal bleeding in your abdomen from another attack. A potion might only heal the internal bleeding but not the damage of the gash that is keeping you unconscious and bleeding. Also keeps with the theme that healing potions/spells are repairing damage, not magically making your character able to walk again. Additionally, there's the idea that if you take damage equal to double your max health (aka go to negative max health HP), then you die anyway. Makes sense, especially considering that as your character grows in power, they'd be harder to actually kill. This way of thinking also works for bosses. Lastly, this line of thinking takes the "welp, let's see if I live or die" out of the player's hands. And makes it so that, for the most part, a goblin could run up on a level 14 wizard and just hit him 3 times to kill him. Though I suppose that you're a downed player, which means that any attack is a guaranteed crit, IIRC. So maybe a goblin could just run up and stab a wizard to death. All I know is that 3 fails means death kind of seems stupid.

While I like most of the changes to healing, the one exception is Healing Word, it did not need a buff. In fact, it could have been nerfed to just 1d4 or just your ability mod... hell, it could have been lowered to 1 HP, and people would STILL prepare it anyway. Personally, I would also remove Mass HW and just have the base spell get additional targets as you upcast it to further differentiate it from Cure Wounds.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I fully agree that just having it heal 1 HP would have made it functionally the same as the 2014 version. The reason I like this update is that it potentially incentivizes use of it outside of just restoring that 1 hit point, to maybe bridge that gap between going down from a hit and not. It's definitely not perfect and isn't going to "solve" the problem but it makes it a reasonable consideration.

@SSNessy

7 ай бұрын

I like the idea of upcasting replacing Mass Healing Word, but unfortunately one of the design constraints of 5e2024 is that every spell from the 2014 PHB has to be included (and be the same level) for backwards compatibility with current 5e material.

@imakuniaw

7 ай бұрын

@@SSNessyThey can do the same thing as they did with the Conjure spells: delete the old one, then create a new spell called "Mass Healing Word (even though it's not actual Mass Healing Word, but we said we'd have every old spell so here, take this new one instead)"

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

The only problem I see with your thought is that Cure Wounds is touch and Healing Word is not. You could take the middle ground and say that it heals 1d6 health instead of 2d4. That gives it a small healing boost while not making it stupid and make clerics never need to be close by. But seriously, how many times has your healer complained "I can't reach that guy because I just cast cure wounds on this person"? Healing word's purpose is "uttering a word and providing healing to those you cannot reach by touch". Like a divine level healing. Really no different than prayer of healing. Though I do like the idea of upcasting it causing it to increase the number of people affected (by adding 1d6 healing to be given to another target within range).

I think the Cure Wounds change is really good. Mass Cure Wounds might be okay too, but I think some playtesting might be in order to make sure. The change to Healing Word doesn't matter, nor does Mass Healing Word. I think Healing Word should just upcast into Mass Healing Word. No reason to take 2 spells to accomplish what should just be one spell. Having a 9th level Healing Word bring up your whole army would cinematically be really cool. Whether it was effective is another matter, considering a well-placed fireball might just take them all down again.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I've thought about that too, it's not like it would be the first spell to allow you to select additional targets at higher levels. I haven't considered it deeply, I'll be honest, but it's worth mentioning.

@halozoo2436

7 ай бұрын

I think it’s fine to have Healing Word and Mass Healing Word separate, as it’s not a problem most of the time to have both a powerful single-target heal and a slighter weaker multi-target heal, as only Bard really has trouble with it which is because they have a general issue with Spell selection. The buffed Cure Wounds meanwhile is a particularly good buff, as the Spell has classically been all but pointless over Healing Word as it’s just garbage as a Standard Action with Touch Range that made it way too expensive for the benefit over Healing Word.

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

I think, as I mentioned in another reply, that you should take the healing that Healing Word does and allow your players to spread it over a number of targets equal to the number of healing dice being rolled. In the 2024 edition, 2d4 would mean you can heal 2 targets for 1d4 or 1 target for 2d4. That means at level 2 you could reach 4 targets for 1d4, 1 target for 2d4 and 2 targets for 1d4, 2 targets for 2d4 or 1 target for 3d4 and 1 target for 1d4, or 1 target for 4d4. They're a healer (specifically a cleric), so they should have some control over how their magic affects those around them. It's like in anime and other games where your healing isn't always super effective on some but it's very effective on others. Or you're better able to manage/gauge how much healing to provide. Like this scenario - your fighter got scratched and your rogue is bleeding from their abdomen. Your cast 2nd level healing word to give your fighter 1d4 and your rogue 3d4. Problem solved. You could also just reduce the healing they have now by half (so 1d6) and keep what I mentioned above. So now level 2 could be 2 targets for 1d6 or 1 for 1d6. Which means that at level 9, you can do a lot of healing to one person, moderate healing to a few people, or a small amount of healing to a lot of people.

I still reckon the UA cure wounds should have let the recipient spend a hit die instead of just doing an additional die of healing (which would scale to allow more hit dice with upcasting)

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

You're missing the point of healing magic if you think the recipient pays a price for the caster's help. The caster is using the weave and divine blessings to provide healing properties to your body. Why the hell would it take YOUR hit dice for THEIR MAGIC? That's like a doctor saying "Did you bring your own scalpel? Great, you're going to make your own incisions and I'm going to sit here and just watch your movements".

@Funkin_Disher

5 ай бұрын

@@Dyanosis my idea being the spell heals the normal 1d8 + Mod plus 1d8 per spell level upcast, but the recipient can choose to ALSO spend their hit dice to heal further (one per spell level), which further tailors the healing recieved to the situation and shifts some of the power from just buffing the spell to an often underused resource pool

Pre-emptively casting healing word still won't happen becasue its unoptimal to do so unless you have no bonus action and a ton of spell slots. Plus you rarely know the "right time" to do it as monster damage varies greatly per turn/

I think Cure Wounds and Healing Word are both perfect now. they scale very well without being too powerful. Mass Healing Word I think could use an additional D4 so that it heals 3D4 at base level and it it'll be golden. Mass Cure Wounds is a 5th level spell for a reason though, it's supposed to be a mid combat pick up multiple people at once and actually be able to take an extra hit before going back down. I get what people mean by being afraid that this will slow combat down, but I don't think it will. this all seems very well balanced to me and I don't know why more powerful healing spells would drag the game down. Knocked out players means less turns are taken in a round, which means less damage is being dealt to enemies, which means there are bad guys on the board for even longer. That is what drags out combat. So unless you're playing in a super old school game where at minimum two player characters are going to be killed per session only to be replaced next week by another player character who is also likely to meet a grim end after a session or two then I don't see why players would take issue with these changes. Personally from a lot of people I'm hearing a lot of, "But it's different now. It was perfect the way it was because that was D&D 5th edition and it was absolutely perfectly perfect in every way and cannot be improved on even though 'I' make changes, actively ignore rules, and make my own rules up along the way grrrhhhh." For real though, this is a good change. In combat healing as it has been for nearly a decade now sucks. Like, it's so bad that the dodge action is almost always a better choice than casting Cure Wounds on yourself. These spells got a buff that was very much needed. You're not going to top off health in the middle of a fight and keep going indefinitely. The average healing done by a 1st level Cure Wounds with a +3 Spellcasting ability modifier is 12 as opposed to 7.5. That's hardly game breaking even at early levels. Like I said before, what drags out combat is action economy and if your players are going down only to get back up with a casting of a healing spell only to be put back down before their turn even starts, that's a waste of three turns right there. One for the healer, one for the downed player, and on for the monster that has to knock that player back down because they only got 7 HP from a healing spell, and btw, just changing targets isn't always the fix here. A LOT of the time the players with healing spells are in the mid to front lines of combat. Druids only have like, one ranged damaging cantrip and have limited spell slots so in order for them to do anything in combat they have to be at best, a mid liner and the same is true for Bards as well. Clerics and Paladins are by default front liners meaning they will be taking damage as well and sure the Ranger is usually at a good distance, they don't get Healing Word meaning they have to go in and cast Cure Wounds on a downed player when there might be multiple foes nearby all of who have turns coming up with only one option to attack besides the formerly downed player. That's what drags out combat. Now, to be clear, if these spells were healing 8D6 at first level and scaling at even 1D6 per level of casting then yeah, that wouldn't bold well for the game. Healing spells should be comparable to damaging spells of the same level. Healing Word and Cure Wounds should heal nearly the same amount as Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb, Chaos Bolt, and Guiding Bolt deal in damage in order to stay relevant. While I will agree that those damaging spells I just listed will be swapped out for more powerful spells at higher levels, (Lightning Bolt, Fireball) the same really can't be said for Cure Wounds and Healing Word. Mass Healing Word does a fair bit of healing but ultimately, it's still just a D4 + your spellcasting modifier, at a time when just about every single attack is nearly guaranteed to knock you back out and at the cost of one of your precious 3rd level spell slots. Mass Cure Wounds also is effected by this but not quite as bad. At 9th Level when you would normally gain access to this spell, you'll likely have either an 18 or 20 for your Spellcasting ability that combined with the 3D8 and you're then looking at roughly 18 points of healing done per target with a single casting of this spell. While that's not much, it's still enough to tank a hit before going down. It's also enough to buff up other characters a little with it's pretty impressive range by topping off their own missing hit points thus keeping them in the fight and keeping the combat going. The down side, it's a 5th level spell. It comes online late, and it doesn't get to be used a whole lot. I used it after the party got hit by an AOE ability such as a Dragon's breath weapon, or the time the party got hit by Destructive Wave. These changes are good for the game. the longer players stay in the fight the faster we can proceed though combat. I don't like playing games where every other session someone is stuck writing up a new character. I don't like games where the party is TPK'd and the group is either forced to give this campaign up completely, or proceed with brand new characters who honestly from a narrative perspective really have no point in being there continuing the story. You're swapping out the entire cast of a series half way through. it's jarring, and to be honest, you're just not going to feel the same way about your new characters as you did your old characters unless you run a second session zero. Lastly, having the party get TPK'd only to wake up captured isn't something that can be done often otherwise it cheapens combat because now you've set the precedent that you're players will expect to survive any and all encounters that are too much for them to handle so not just go wild.

There seem to be two issues: 1) Currently healing is highy disincentiveized until a player goes down. This provides a significant disconnect from behavior that we would expect, (dying sucks we should avoid it, wait you ARENT healing me?)so its a big tension point for players. 2) Healing spells are bad. I dont mean numbers, they are some of the most boring spells in the book. Where is the channeled shield wall, healing link between players, companion pet that heals, etc. Im drunk and on the toilet and i came up with better ideas than "chill for a minute while i slowly heal you nerds". Those mean that if you want to be a fantasy healer, you are only fulfilling your roll when things have gone disastrously wrong, have a massive disconnect in fantasy and mechanics because of yoyi, and then use spell slots on some of the least dramatic and non tactical spells in the game. Basically all they have done is make existing tactics slightly better, and possibly a 0 sum impact since they did same monster dmg is going up. To make a material change healing spells need to be tactical and interesting, and combat yoyo needs to be disincentiveized.

Healing is already trivial. A player can heal from 1HP to 200HP without magic aid by sleeping for 8 hours, while the Cleric, Bard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Paladin stand there picking their nose watching the 20th lvl fighter heal to full without any intervention

I wonder if having bonuses to one’s character while above a certain percentage of health (or negatives to being below a threshold) that aren’t necessarily game breaking or “feels like it’s needed to counteract them” would help the dedicated healers to feel even more important in combat

@RadiantHealer

Ай бұрын

Could help to prevent the effectiveness of the Death Yo-yo

As someone making my own ttrpg (no it isn't just a 5e clone or even a dnd derivative), I'll definitely say that one of the biggest problems with in combat healing is always asking the question of "wouldn't it just be better to kill the thing that's causing you to heal faster than it forces you to heal?" Why use this turn to heal, when I can just try to remove that threat. One example i showed from 5e is cure wounds vs inflict wounds. Because neither really upcast well, we'll just focus one their level 1 version. Cure wounds was 1d8 + ability modifier (so a +3 to +5, typically something like a +4) which is an 8.5 or so average. Inflict wounds was just 3d10 on a hit, so 16.5 average. While yes, you do need to make an attack roll which means missing, it also means a small chance to crit further boosting that bridge. We can already see inflict wounds deals close to double as much damage as a cure heals, and basically as much to down a vast majority of level 1 characters (with some barbarians making it out, just barely). Which again brings to the point, wouldn't it just be better to end the threat, than to hral with the threat still persistent? Its also why "focus fire" is a favorable strategy if applicable. Because fewer threats tend to be better. So the healing amount definitely has to be good enough to actually consider using those resources/actions versus just further removing the threat and only rely on the yoyo strategy. I'll admit, its a hard balance.

@ODDnanref

7 ай бұрын

Spells don't Crit in DND5e. The damage is always going to be 16.5x% chance to hit. Usually, if you are playing as expected it means your will hit about 65% of the time, so a bit more than 9 damage, maybe 10 damage. So yeah, still deals more damage than cure wound does, but the difference is not as much.

@Merilirem

7 ай бұрын

Make sure you consider the danger of going down. If someone is at 1 hit point they should be scared because anything will knock them down. They shouldn't just not care because 1 is as good as 50 or the healer can just bring them back up anyway if something knocks them down. The threat of death or injury should always be there to make sure people care about damage beyond the hit points they have left. Killing the enemy is always the best option even if you can heal fully every turn. The issue should be that if you don't kill them they could kill you. If your party misses every attack your 1 hit point won't be enough to save you from bad consequences. Not always death but something you really don't want to happen nonetheless. In battle healing is supposed to keep you safe. So there needs to be danger.

@slydoorkeeper4783

7 ай бұрын

@@ODDnanref I could have sworn if the spell requires an attack roll it can crit. I get a lot of spells are save base, and typically a lot of the better ones require saves, but I could have sworn I've both read and heard they could. Also, I understand the difference between dpr calculations and just measuring based on assumed hit. DPR makes them seem a bit more balanced to each other, but I'm going with the more favorable look on things. Assuming you hit, you're probably causing the foe more harm, even up to removing them with inflict wounds than what you could have used the slot and action to heal up your damage.

@ODDnanref

7 ай бұрын

@@slydoorkeeper4783 You know what, you might be right. I might have confused it with an UA.

@knightofcarrion7358

6 ай бұрын

@@ODDnanref spells do crit. In one dnd, or UA, they do not. Nor can the DM crit, only weapon based players.

Honestly the problem is that going down isn't scary. Healing in combat is supposed to keep you from getting beaten or killed. In a game where that isn't a problem of course combat healing isn't going to be balanced right. I find that in games where your character can be in danger of just straight up dying if they get hit while being at low hit points you REALLY want a healer to keep you out of the danger zone. Of course that might be too much for many people but the point stands. There should be scary consequences for getting knocked down. A heal shouldn't just get you back up like it never happened. You should want to stay up. EDIT: To be clear healing shouldn't outpace the damage you take from being hit. It should just supplement your existing hit points pool so that you can fight longer. If someone wants to do a big heal that negates entire turns of enemies, it needs to be expensive.

To avoid death yo-yo, I apply injuries rules from DMG whenever players fall unconscious. Seems like it works, at least at lower levels.

It would be cool if they made a "10 minute" healing spell that healed more than a 1-round version.

@WilliamSlayer

7 ай бұрын

How would you make it different from Prayer of Healing?

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

@@WilliamSlayerI think the joke is that Prayer of Healing is an odd spell that feels very out of place and literally can't be used in combat reliably or ever.

Do you think WOTC will address the yoyo healing aspect of 5e? It seems like its something that they've totally ignored and would be a great thing for a playtest.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

This seems to be the first attempt at addressing it even if its in an indirect way. Encouraging people to use healing more, can have the side effect of lessening the impact of the yo-yo. But who knows.

@JJV7243

7 ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck I think that it'll still be optimal to let people drop to 0 and healing word them. I'd like to see some sort of penalty applied to the downed player the turn after they come up.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

Oh it almost certainly is still optimal to do that but the point I was more making with the video wasn't really about optimal play since I don't think that makes up to majority of players, me included. I think that if it *feels* more likely that it might work then people will be more willing to try it. I just like that they seem to be experimenting with leaning into design to solve perceived issues!

@JJV7243

7 ай бұрын

@@InsightCheck Fair enough! I do think the changes to the healing spells were good. I just wished that they did a bit to address the yoyo healing aspect of it.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

I can definitely agree with that!

I just realised that you have less then 5k sub. Damn you do such a good job tho! Get a comment! May the algorithm gods be with you

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

:) thank you so much for saying that!

I'd prefer Healing be more interactive with Hit Dice to better control strategic resource use.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

This is a really interesting concept, it would be cool to see them experiment more with this in the future.

@slydoorkeeper4783

7 ай бұрын

As much as I hate like 90% of the homebrew I've seen, I saw one that was a cantrip that I believe was touch (if I recall correctly), requires the target to spend a hit die, but healed that targe an amount of HP equal to that hit die + their con mod. I can't remember which action it took to perform, but felt like a good compromise in healing. It scaled in uses as the party leveled and allows for quick healing without needing short rests spamming (because not everyone has short rest reliant abilities) and it saves the spell slot. Allows for dedicated healer to technically be a thing, but not a must because they have the option to do more than heal bot.

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

@@slydoorkeeper4783As I stated in another reply - having the target have to pay a price for the caster's magic is stupid. Your hit dice are your body's "regenerative force", which is why you "get to heal" during a short rest. If a spell caster is taking the time to use MAGIC to heal you, why the fuck does it cost you a hit dice? They're not "coaxing your body to do its thing" when you could just take a short rest. They're using the Weave and literally using it close your wounds and make you better (and more effectively/efficiently than your body would naturally). What's the point to using a spell slot so someone else can pay a price? Does Dimension Door make the extra creature pay a spell slot to tag along? No, otherwise characters like rogues wouldn't be able to be transported. If you want the caster to waste a spell for the target to pay a price, what's next? A wizard giving a person haste so they can spend 3 hit dice to extend it by 3 turns? Where does that make sense?

@slydoorkeeper4783

5 ай бұрын

@@Dyanosis I think you missed the part where I said it was a cantrip. Making the opportunity cost much less severe and allowing the leveled slots to be used for more than just healing. Also, some games people play have effective "time limits" so taking time to cast that cantrip may be worth it compared to spending an hour resting.

I dont think good heal spells makes combat trivial. They use spell slots so you are actively foregoing an offensive, Defensive or even niche utility spell just so you can heal up. The enemies will still be right there in the next encounter. Just look at Bardic inspiration providing Advantage on Attack Rolls. Why not just use that every turn so that your high dex or Str martial mauls the enemy alive? I also dont think Spells in general make a "dedicated healer". If things like grappling and tripping where so good, they would be used more often. They kind of dont really get used outside of very obvious targets. Its not like a Wizard or Bard spends their turn using those other actions when they could be casting offensive cantrips already. They don't want to go into Melee in the first place... why would they go in to try and trip or shove or whatever? What other situation can a "Dedicated healer" use other actions for that casters dont fall into already?

I don't know if many people noticed the new healing word is about as much healing and upcasting as the old cure wounds, slightly better, and I have seen a few players upcast it to 2nd or 3rd level, so I do think this may be even upcast a bit by at least some players, I mean if the fighter in front of you needs 15 hp to survive an attack, and you are a life cleric, then you either can use your action and a 1st level cure wounds, or use your bonus action and a 2nd level healing word, and be even more sure they survive it with 19hps! Healing word always needed to be cast at twice the level of cure wounds to be as effective, this is no different at all, also, because healing spells are buffed, but are still a bit situational, life cleric actually feels that buff alot, because it used it's class features when it was time to cast a healing spell, and life cleric got the fewest buffs in the playtest thus far, so this actually makes me want to play life cleric again Grave cleric looks great too!

I think the main issue that I’ve not seen addressed yet in both damage and healing is HP bloat. When enemies are sacks of hit points, and players are sacks of hit points, it doesn’t matter how engaging you are in describing combat as a DM, you’re just whittling down hit points. We need fewer hit points on monsters, players, everybody.

Missing: when you're reduced to 0 HP and then regain life, gain 1 Exhaustion. There, yo-yo gone! :D

@chunkychew6995

7 ай бұрын

Genius

5:14 what..? I am extremely disappointed. Being the dedicated healer is the absolutely MOST fun thing in literally ANY game I’ve ever played. Yes, ANY game. From shooters with roles to RPG’s, I have always and will always main support with a heavy dedication towards raw healing numbers. Not support through damage mitigation or debuffs/buffs, but pure and straight healing to their health bars. I could never get bored with being the Healer role, as I could then just move some of my damaging abilities to be completely and entirely support with only healing and buffing, with MAYBE a single damaging ability as a panic button if I have to 1v1 something.

How about they fix the cause of yo-yo(ing) you could give levels of exhaustion when you come back from dying/dropping due to the trauma?

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

It's called Homebrew and it's free to do. Implement it yourself and stop complaining about it on the internet :)

The problem is the Death Yo-Yo healing, if going unconscious had a real drawback, that would make a difference for healing! In our Pathfinder game, you go unconscious at -1 and die at - con! If you go below 0, the you are unconscious for 1 round per hp below 1 when you are healed over 1, unless you are healed to full!

Actually if you look at mass cure wounds, it heals exactly half as much as normal cure wounds. A 5th level cure wounds is 10d8 whereas mass is 5. Cure heals an extra 2d8 per level and Mass cure heals 1d8. The upside to offset half healing is the potential to heal 6 creatures, which means healing 2 creatures instead of just one nullifies the entire halved healing

@Dyanosis

5 ай бұрын

Cure wounds is directed healing to 1 target. Which makes thematic sense because you're able to direct/concentrate the effect. Whereas Mass Cure Wounds is targeted on an area. Thematically, that means that the healing is being wasted if there isn't literally a person every inch. It's like comparing using a paint brush to using a spray can. The spray can covers a larger area but not as well as if you'd just use a brush to actually make sure the area is covered well.

My 2 cp on the "dedicated healer" dilemma - You're playing a cleric. You know what you signed up for. Sure, there are battle clerics. There are the "I'd rather rez you than heal you clerics". But If clerics CAN'T be played as a dedicated healer as their literal core function, then why have them? Why not just have a paladin and do away with clerics? Lay on hands is better scaling anyway, takes no spell slots, and can be distributed however you want whenever you want to as many targets as possible. If you're playing a cleric, it should FEEL GOOD to play a dedicated healer. While I speak with a lot of bias as I'm a dedicated healer in all games I've ever played (both MMORPGs and tabletop games), I think it's important that there be the ability to be a dedicated healer. It's super frustrating, as you pointed out, to heal someone for 10 HP because I really need to save my higher level spell slots for any upcoming dangers and then the player takes 25 damage and is downed anyway. Plus, in some ways, healers become outclassed by potions because I can always make more money and buy really strong potions. While I don't think that your parties should be required to have a healer (my current party runs without one and that's an interesting story to be told), if they want to have one, it should feel rewarding to have one. Snubbing your nose at dedicated healing and making dedicated healers feel like crap is like an MMORPG/other games that have sidekicks not allowing you to have one to heal you because "what's the point in that".

if you double the damage and health of enemies and players doubling the healing doesn't do anything?

Actually, when I think of healers in media, I can't think of one that predates the 2010s that has actual combat healing. Not LotR, not Conan, not Moorcock (Stormbringer is a cheat), not GoT. Almost every instance I can think of is a matter of healing up between combats and turning basically weeks into days. Anyone got examples?

@slydoorkeeper4783

7 ай бұрын

I think because this is a group oriented style game, they may think of MMOs (look at 4e for example even) when it comes to certain archetypes. And the concept of the healer hends to have that heal bot feel. There are also examples such as the priest from War Craft 3, or early editions being more deadly and the need for a healer being higher.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, the reference was more to games and other fantasy TTRPGs rather than media more broadly.

Healing hasn't been done right since 2e and I have no confidence wotc can figure it out now

I would argue that Aura of Vitality is TOO good as an out-of-combat healing option. I'm commenting an dI'm not even 2 minute sinto the video, just feeding the algo.

@InsightCheck

7 ай бұрын

Hahaha thanks for that :P Aura of Vitality is certainly very good out of combat, there's no denying that. At least it's not as insane as the old Healing Spirit was...

@tibot4228

7 ай бұрын

@InsightCheck Maybe not, but it's the same amount of healing as Heal! I think you could drop it to 1d6 and it would still be good.

I think one way to prevent Yoyo healing is to add the following caveat to Healing Word: the spell can only affect a target that can hear you (the unconscious condition specifies that you can't hear). That way it would function more like Second Wind as a way to top off your HP while keeping your main action

reduced healing increases depth of choice because healing isn't always the right choice increased healing increases depth of choice because now healing is more viable. you gotta pick one dude. cant do both.

Cure Wounds will become more popular. If its ruled that recieving Healing Word caused 1 level of exhaustion.

The REAL problem is player mentality. PC's have gotten it in their heads that healing in combat can only be viable in one way(the yoyo healing). This is just not true, Insight check provided the best example at 11:42 but for only 35 seconds. If you kept healing the front liner, you are keeping them alive for 2 or 3 more rounds until they will finally fall over. That is very a significant strategy that PC's just seem to 'overlook' in favor of, "HeAling doEsn't Heal dAmage 1 to 1 so in combat its bad". Worst of all no one is talking about how they are buffing the monsters damage output/damage types. GREAT! Now we're entering power creep and I'll have to hear it all over again in 4 months how healing in combat can't keep up with monster damage output.....I'm just so tired of hearing this same argument. I have played a pure healing character in DnD, Wow, League of Legends, Overwatch 2. It's fun to enable your team to go all out and they get to do that, because of you. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and this is the best design choice the Developers have made. I'll just wait and see...

I will never allow a player to drink a potion while someone is attacking them. It's idiotic video game BS.