To everyone commenting on the size of the radiators I would just like to point out that from June 15th 2022 new Part L building regulations will require all full central heating installation including gas boilers to be low temperature of maxium flow of 55C What it means in practice is that even on gas boilers you will have to install radiators of considreably larger sizes and in older properties it simply means radiators of similar size as in this video for rooms with comparable heatloss. See below "A revised version of Approved Document L (Part L) of the Building Regulations has been published which will take effect from June 15th 2022. With this revision there are a number of changes to guidance and requirements covering both the new build and retrofit markets. With regards to existing dwellings the main points are: Complete New System Installations require: An appropriate heat loss calculation for the dwelling A system sizing methodology that takes account of the properties of the dwelling, such as the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering’s Plumbing Engineering Services Design Guide The system should be designed to operate at a 55°C heating flow temperature"

@bigchicken061

2 жыл бұрын

55c doesnt seem hot enough to kill and stop bacteria growth the system will get clogged up

@rsole65

2 жыл бұрын

So they’ve changed the regs to make the giant radiators of heat pump installs look normal. Space is at a premium in most older houses in the UK hence the popularity of combi boilers allowing removal of tanks to free up living space. In my opinion heat pumps have a place in new homes designed for them but as a retrofit too expensive and too room intensive, wait for better tech.

@hvacdesignsolutions

2 жыл бұрын

I think people are reading too much into the size of the rads. A modern new-build wouldn't need such large rads, and the ground floor would typically be UFH.

@hughtattersall7583

2 жыл бұрын

That means the return will be below dew point and condensing boilers will waste energy

@jayzeebeezee7442

2 жыл бұрын

@@rsole65 I agree. It's all so farcical. Seems to me if you want to be green you better have deep pockets. To me, that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be green but I can't afford it. And that probably applies to most of us. Sadly, those like me and many others also, are slaves to oil and gas, and ironically we are the ones who can least afford it.

I am from Romania and I am a woman. Your video was helping me incredibly! So thank you In my country, heat pumps are at their beggining. But due to energy crisis, there is crazyness on the market. It is a jungle, actually. Huge lack of knowledge, few good specialists, and lot of abuses. Myself I started to learn a bit about heatpumps and installations after having a very painful experience with an insltaller claiming to be an expert. I found no other solution than to start learning myself, learning the heatpump installer manual like a bible and start testing really well the so call "experts" offering to reinstall correctly my pump. Was it enough? yes and no. But... your videos were solid milestones for me, on the road to learning from the best. Therefore I am sending you my entire gratitute. Love from Romania 💜🧡

@TulgaD5

Жыл бұрын

Same over here in Germany. Since the beginning of the energy crisis so called "experts" took over the maket with their cash grab methods. Everyone, who did not do their research on heat pumps gets scammed most likely. But once it's done correctly, oh boy, get ready to safe some big €€€, I just got back 500 € from my electricity company because I predicted 3500 kWh and only used 2200 kWh.

@tatradak9781

8 ай бұрын

Your a brave ♀️.. If nobody understand in your area, then find a hydraulic engineer, these machines are actually hot fluid pumps and need careful mathematical calculations and unrestricted flow, both are critical for SCOP of 3.5 or higher.. Good luck 😊

Here in the southern United States, we use forced air heat pumps very effectively. In the event of the extream cold, it is backed up by electric resistance heat. This back up heat is seldom needed but can also act as emergency heat if the compressor fails. With the very hot summers the ability to provide air conditioning makes this the most practical system for most southern states.

@pedazodetorpedo

2 жыл бұрын

It's probably a good system for the southern US, not so good in northern Europe though

@gegwen7440

2 жыл бұрын

@@pedazodetorpedo IMO not so as we used a split system for a good few years before moving elsewhere and really miss the system in summer or winter.

@ericdunn6232

2 жыл бұрын

@@pedazodetorpedo works fine in Canada. Hot summers and very cold Winters.

@njn5884

2 жыл бұрын

Up here in New York there pushing heat pumps now.

@user-kc1tf7zm3b

2 жыл бұрын

@@ericdunn6232 The Canadian Government has explicitly stated heat pumps are appropriate for the entire country. That _really_ says a lot. 🇨🇦

Nice install. It's of the outmost importance to reduce the Average temprature of the water in the system. Every degree that the temprature is reduced is about 2,5% Efficiency. I have a Geothremal heat pump and my Maxium temprature is set at 28C. Noramlly the system runs at about 24-26C. Last year I had a COP of around 6.5, including warm water production. A lot of people on here are saying that the install is complicated and saying that doing the caluclations on the average heat loss per room is too much work when really they should be doing this work regardless of what system they're installing.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

That’s a nice cop!

@jurgenschaefer2590

Жыл бұрын

You are right. Before installation of new heating system you should know the demand.

Looks like a very good installation. Well it wouldn’t surprise me if this installation cost £15,000-£20,000 probably slightly more. In my opinion I think this is way too much money for most families to go down this route.. personally before installing a air source heat pump I go down the route of installing insulation possibly new windows and also looking on how to improve the buildings fabric to decrease heat loss. From my experience as a heating engineer, heat pumps have a place but most the time badly installed and proper care and do diligence is not taken while surveying the job.. I personally would advise people to look into how to make the property more energy-efficient through wrapping it up then installing a heat pump on old properties. Now if you had a brand-new property that was 100% up to scratch building regs regarding insulation or possibly a passive house then a air source heat pump would be ideal specially if you have underfloor heating everywhere.. Personally I think spending £20,000 on improving windows, insulation etc is far more bang for your buck

@tonydization

2 жыл бұрын

Far more bang for your buck than what? Good insulation is a prerequisite of installing a heat pump based system anyway so it isn't a case of either or but after those improvements you suggest have been made. I think Simon covered it, alot of care should be taken over the system design and heat loss calcs to avoid dissappointment.

@coldfinger459sub0

2 жыл бұрын

Replacing windows in the house especially if you’re going to go to the high U value triple glaze plus the proper airtight installation and hopefully water leak proof will cost just as much as a heat pump if not more. Air sealing is your biggest bang for the buck and the simplest and cheapest. The proper insulation on a new build or upgrading insulation should’ve been something that was tackled long ago in the first place before the heat pump installation. Then with those considerations out of the way and properly implemented you would need a smaller heat pump costing you less because you have already maximize your insulation and air sealing and prove it and document it by doing a whole house blower door test.

@conr3x

2 жыл бұрын

Right. They installed a wooping 17kW HP. Customer has a very big house or a very old house. Step 1. insulate the house to a modern 30w/m2 heat load (at worst conditions) Step 2. upgrade to properly calculated underfloor heating throught the house. Step 3. choose an easy to install yourself monoblock HP (4-6kW)= 4000 euro and a separate easy to install 100 liter HP boiler= 1000 euro.

@mihaiachim5299

2 жыл бұрын

@@conr3x step 3 10:1(or more) modulation Gas condensing boiler @1000E :P

@thatboyaintright4626

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on! Fabric first is the phrase

Absolute pleasure working with you Simon. Your a great embassador for the industry!

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

ohh, thank you

@jukeseyable

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers what was the total cost of the installation including parts?

@TheLegend-nx3mm

2 жыл бұрын

Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉

@malachy1847

2 жыл бұрын

Just wondering could put it Out There... the Make and Model of Robust Circulation Pump you used to pump that seriously Hot water around the Circuit...as I'm sure many folks would have an Interest in that Pump....I have been told "Stuart Turner " Brass/ Bronze pumps do hold up well as Booster Pumps... But haven't had experience with their Circulation Pumps ...Great Upload...

@HeatGeek

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheLegend-nx3mm nonsense

Payback time ? Radiator aesthetics? I've been designing central heating systems for 50+ years , those radiators in the music room may do the job , but they look horrible , my customers simply would not have them , and you haven't got enough wall space for horizontal ones, that's going to apply to every room , by the way , your pipework is excellent , regards Steve

@valvemonky4734

2 жыл бұрын

and as it is a music room not going to help with acoustics

@stevekennedy8581

2 жыл бұрын

@@valvemonky4734 never thought of that one , excellent point

Hi. Another great video and detailed explanation, I have a quick question, we came across each other before, my HP works brilliantly in wormer seasons, however in the winter it is in defrost mode quite often causing the radiators to cool quite quickly. Is there anything I can do? Rec pump is on all the time ( thermostat starts/stops it). Thanks in advance. Rafal

My god. What on earth have your customers got to do for a living to afford this monstrosity of an install. Most of my customers are scraping together the money for a 2k combi swap. As always the standard of your work and knowledge is unquestionable, and I’m sure all of us heating engineers can appreciate seeing someone doing something perfectly to the book, but for millions of people in this country this technology is simply a financial non starter and will never be affordable or practical. As far as the changes to the building regs, I can tell you now that hardly anyone is gonna do it. Just like the ridiculous Erp sticker calculating fiasco, that’s largely now just ignored, or boiler plus which is often again just ignored for people on fixed incomes then every penny counts and new controls are often an expense they won’t go to. These giant 20k heat pump installs are just pie in the sky virtue signalling for the middle classes. I’m calling people this year, regular customers for a boiler service and being told by them they can’t afford it. Yet more regulations coming in to make installs even more expensive for people. I’ve got fifteen years in this industry left till I retire and I can’t wait.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

People have diffrent priorities mate. Strange how £30K car does not raise any eybrows - but a £10-15K heat pump creates a mass hysteria.

@ItsFriscoBaby

2 жыл бұрын

All so true. I still enjoy the industry but there is no question that the push toward completely refitting houses regardless of if it's the best choice or not is just pushing people into needless debt.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

@@ItsFriscoBaby no one is forcing anyone to install a heat pump. The opposite is happening, people are being encouraged to go that route with government grants.

@ItsFriscoBaby

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers I didn't say they were being forced. What I sad was they are being pushed in a direction regardless of its suitability which is exactly what's happening.

@iaincook2493

2 жыл бұрын

that's a bunch of copper

I've watched Rogers videos and to be honest nothing he said is false. Heat pumps can be made work in every house but they are not the best solution for every household. Maybe the running costs he talks about are more down to bad installs rather than the system itself Those two huge radiators look ridiculous.

@JanZamani

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly though, nobody is saying everyone has to get a ASHP right now. The government want to transition to it as long term gas is unsustainable and of course the people with the gas (i.e. russia) are not the best people to be dealing with. In the long term, the supplies of gas will get lower and lower and the price (inc carbon tax) will get higher and higher. This is future proofing your home in my eyes, though of course not financially viable for most. It only highlights the need for more government assistance on this. Though I think we can all agree that grants on proper insulation (or even instalment plans) are the way forward short term. Even gas fired homes will use less if they're properly insulated and will pay themselves off in the long term. People just cant afford the initial investment right now.

@hicknopunk

2 жыл бұрын

You need an industrial scale of sterling engines + liquid metal batteries

what brand or where did you get those vertical rads please?

Excellent work, as always Szymon, but I think this video kind of makes Roger’s point. That install must’ve cost at least £20k, that prv pump alone was £700! And having to fit those massive radiators, including those TWO great ugly things in the lounge! Yes, you’ve shown that ASHP can work in old, solid walled houses, but the cost and impracticality/ugliness of the system will definitely put the large majority of home owners off, as would the running costs. It’s only the well off, virtue signaling “I’m doing my bit” crowd who would entertain that kind of thing.

@dinendale666

2 жыл бұрын

The £700 pump was only because the cylinder was in the basement.

@SisterAbdullahX

2 жыл бұрын

@@dinendale666 ok, so that’s knocked it down to £19.3k!

@lewbaker

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more. I watched this video and I'm just thinking, damn how much did that cost, damn how much does THAT cost, holy crap 2 of those massive things I've got 3 rooms that would need the same thing how much would that cost!! and where the hell do I put the giant tank! I'm gonna have a gas combi boiler until the day the gov bans them and my last installed combi before that can't be repaired anymore, after that I'll probably just get my shower replaced by an electric one and freeze in the winter I guess lol

@SisterAbdullahX

2 жыл бұрын

@@lewbaker I’m gonna stick my neck out and say we’ll still be using gas boilers after 2050!

@JasperJanssen

2 жыл бұрын

@@lewbaker a couple decades from now using gas will cost so much that you will happily spend the extra on doing things electrically. I would not be surprised if direct electric heating would turn out to be cheaper than gas, at this rate.

Great video. The installation highlights the serious issues we face with old UK housing stock. Heat loss is the enemy in winter. In summer it’s going to be cooling. I think we have to seriously invest in super insulation before we install heat pumps. Most “ ordinary “ households won’t have the funds for these high end systems. I’ve invested in second hand woolly jumpers. Heat the person not the space perhaps?

@AndrewHelgeCox

2 жыл бұрын

When we stop the drafts ventilating our old homes, we are going to need to get the vapour barriers right to avoid rotting them out from the inside by trapping moisture.

@lewisjones5067

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree more. The future (well the near future) is a thermostat at 18 degrees and a blanket! Also turning condensing boilers down to 60 degrees. Small changes like this will have an immediate effect and whilst heat pumps and renewable energy are the future... we have a long way to go in the meantime. The government should be investing in insulation and nuclear power rather than giving grants to heat pumps companies

@SisterAbdullahX

2 жыл бұрын

@@lewisjones5067 Having to sit with a blanket and gloves on in your lounge is more 18th than 21st century. You’re right about the nuclear power though.

@britexpat_l33t

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndrewHelgeCox why not just use soffit & ridge vents as American homes do?

@ChrisLee-yr7tz

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndrewHelgeCox I agree. I think we're going to see a huge number of problems over the next 20 years because of the big step up in insulation.

The thought of replacing my furnace for $5000🍁 had me cringing already, but watching this gave me heart palpitations at what the cost would be for this system.

@sausagesmcgee7079

Жыл бұрын

don't worry - he's in london - the owners will be rich AF ;-) I bet mr urban plumber does pretty well for himself 🙂

@GoatzombieBubba

Жыл бұрын

Cheaper in the States.

The pipe work alone is insanely complex, bordering on artistry. There must be miles of copper in that building.

@SolarWebsite

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I noticed that too. That must a significant fraction of the cost of the entire installation.

It's always about the installation so finding the right people is, as always, super important. I mean the equipment is important but without the right installers, it's never going to work right. It's always about hiring the right people. Hire the right people and they'll make sure you get the right equipment. FWIW we got a new heat pump last fall and it's been AMAZING. Rising power prices and our monthly bills have dropped significantly. Love it.

@kamX-rz4uy

2 жыл бұрын

I got one last summer and this winter it saved me $600 versus heating with propane. In 10 years it will have paid for itself so basically I got a new AC unit for no cost.

@lexwaldez

2 жыл бұрын

@@kamX-rz4uySame here. And the faster prices rise the faster it pays for itself and the rest of those savings go right into the bank. SADLY, the people that need something like this the MOST are the people that can afford it the LEAST. We need a way to get people living paycheck to paycheck the better tech that will reduce power needs. imho

@Jamie_Johnson

2 жыл бұрын

You must like cold showers

@kamX-rz4uy

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jamie_Johnson What does that have to do with heat pumps?

@Jamie_Johnson

2 жыл бұрын

@@kamX-rz4uy Heat pumps are not going to give you a hot shower

Brilliant video 👌 I've almost completed the awakening course on Heat Geek and its unbelievable what you learn. It was watching Andrew Millward and yourself that made me go for it and I'm so glad I did. The bar is definitely being raised with knowledge and installs like this which is great for the industry. Keep up the good work 🙌

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

thanks mate, great that so many people are doing the course and improvding the industry.

Here in Arizona heat pumps are all we have; up until this year, I didn't realize there was such thing as a regular A/C system that can't also produce heat. Crazy world out there

im so confused. im used to refrigerant straight to fan coil units. ive never seen refrigerant to water to radiators. does the heat pump boil the water or is it just hot water???

A follow up video in a years time would be interesting to see how the home owner rates the new system with the old one. I'll keep an eye out for it. Let's hope it airs regardless of the outcome!

@MaxStArlyn

Жыл бұрын

Here is a real world example, after a year worth of use… kzread.info/dash/bejne/lqmDtNeGY7fMoJc.html

I'll be honest watching this is like watching a master artist paint a masterpiece: everything is perfect! I wish I could count on every installer to know how little forgiveness there is on this style of installation!

Great video. We had a GSHP installed in our 1960's house about 15 years ago. We have over sized radiators but not as scientifically sized as your install. A lot of plumbing yes, it was 5K of work back then, about the same cost as the heat pump itself. We probably went about it the wrong way in that we improved house insulation after the install. We do supplement ours with a wood burner in the lounge in the winter, but otherwise very happy. I can't honestly say its any cheaper to run than other options (we have no mains gas in our village), but the complete lack of maintenance and not having to worry about oil top-ups is a real benefit.

@hughmarcus1

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. But that’s ground source. Not beset by the same issues as air source.

@xxwookey

2 жыл бұрын

Upgrading the fabric first should save money on the heat pump installation, but in simple decarbonisation terms the heat pump can be done a lot more quickly (and more cheaply) than the fabric improvements, so even though it's a bit inefficient there is an increasingly good case for just whacking in the heatpump first, then fixing the rest as finance allows, for the vast majority of people who can;t afford to do the whole damn thing in one blitz. Although mortgage-financing for retrofit may change that.

@DavidStruveDesigns

Жыл бұрын

The fact you have to STILL suppliment it during winter kinda proves it has FAILED and WASN'T "worth it". The whole point of these systems is you shouldn't NEED to suppliment them at all with ANYTHING else - especially not a wood burner lol. Or at least that's what they make you believe with the adverts and publicity they get constantly - "it can make heat even in the winter and cool/heat during the summer".

As i and my company already installed over 1500 running mashines over the course of the last 23 years i can say: They work, you just need to know what youre doing. But our system run at 35°C in and 28°C out temperatures so you need an under floor heating system or special radiatiors with fan support. with these radiators you dont need to plaster your living room wall with radiators. holy moly ... my customers would look at me and would ask if i have undiscovered psychological problems or something for even suggesting that.

@piccalillipit9211

2 жыл бұрын

*LITERALLY THE HOTTEST HOUSE* I have ever been in was in the UK in winter with a heat pump system. I was fixing some kitchen cabinets for a neighbour and honestly, I could not breathe, it was 32ºC, I think the woman must have had a medical condition - YES this was a new build and it was installed from new with the house. But anyone that says they don't work is talking BS. Maybe badly installed or cheap systems don't work. But that's NOT to say heat pumps don't work.

@locomotive1213

2 жыл бұрын

@@piccalillipit9211 if it was her or his wish ... halleluja ... our under floor heating is self regulating thru the first law of thermodynamics. As soon as the airtemp. Inside the house reaches the surface temp of the ground at around 23-24 °C, as ex. Thru the sun, Our system shuts itself off ... physicaly ... But if you wanna have a sauna we can make it one yes.

@piccalillipit9211

2 жыл бұрын

@@locomotive1213 - I only know it was a heat pump cos I asked why it was SO damn hot and she proudly told me it was a heat pump system - as if that in itself explained it. She showed me the equipment room where there were two MASSIVE tanks of water that were the heat reservoirs. They supplemented the ground source heating in the winter with heat extracted in the summer. I don't think a normal person would need these as a normal person does not live at literally tropical temperatures. I don't know anything about heat pump systems, but I know for sure the idea they dont work as a technology is rubbish. Maybe this system cost £50k - I dont know, but it sure as heck worked and at £3,000 a year for gas as many in the UK are now paying it does not look THAT expensive at £50k, especially on a new build.

@locomotive1213

2 жыл бұрын

@@piccalillipit9211 ah well ... i come from germany so i dont know the relation to the costs of other heating systems in GB... i just know you guys earn much more than we do. when i was in school, every teacher told us we get 3 times the money in GB. Our one family home system costs around 15.000€ for the heatpump system . gas heater systems as example are around 8.000-10.000€ but since the psycho german goverment forces us to use a specific amount of "renewable energy" when homes are newly build you have to install a solar or PV system in addition to that, so the total prices ends up way over 15.000€.

@piccalillipit9211

2 жыл бұрын

@@locomotive1213 - OH I dont know - I have not lived in the UK for a long time, but the wages seem pretty crappy to me over there now. I was a salesperson in 2002 on £65k a year and not the average is £32k in 2022... But they keep voting for a "conservative" government and they keep getting poorer - what can you do??? I pulled the figure £50k out of think air purely based on the fact it was a large £1 million pluss house NOT a normal house for normal people. Personally, I think €15k for a heating system is an appropriate amount of money if you get 25 years of life out of it and it is affordable to run. We are obsessed with everything being cheap cos we live in a disposable society. I make bespoke historical men's clothing. In 1930 a Singer sewing machine was nearly a year's wages. Today you can buy one new for €50 - but it will be in the landfill in 3 months. Professionals like me either buy the 1930's Singer or we spend €5,000 on a professional modern machine cos NOTHING domestic-made today will do the job... The point of my tangent is we have been trained to think of EVERYTHING as disposable - so people have a heart attack at the thought of a €15k heating system. Its €1.66 a day if it lasts 25 years... Oddly the same people will spend €50k on a car without batting an eyelid...

Great video as usual mate. Fantastic neat work. I’m not 100percent sold on these systems yet. The ashp unit is not a nice sight in the garden and those radiators are so big they stick out like a sore thumb. Iv got a 4yr old gas boiler with average sized rads in every room. Iv turned the temp on boiler down to 58 degrees and the house still warms up to a comfortable temperature.(insulation in my house isn’t great either) I think roger has valid arguments. Fan of you both 👍🏻

@leeknivek

Жыл бұрын

the boiler might last for 50+ years, at that. or, a good 20 years anyway. these heat pumps are so complicated with digital controllers and fragile parts, compressors, capacitors, refrigerant leaks, they are prone to having problems, they're outdoors, and they only last half as long. they're a little bit less expensive than a boiler to operate, because they only use a relatively small amount of electricity, but that's their only real advantage.

@leeknivek

Жыл бұрын

plus they're just plain ugly anyway

The main thing that needs upgrading in this country, it would seem, is the knowledge of our plumbers.

In Australia we just use air based split system heating. It's quick to install and seems a lot easier than the amount of pipe work done here. I have a bunch of Aircon units in my house in all the bedrooms 2.5kw and lounge rooms kitchen etc 7kw and they all function as heaters and air cons. If one breaks all the others keep working. This solution seems overengineered and probably prone to failure as well as probably many many times more expensive. On the other hand looks like nice work 😂

@quadcopter

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, installing an air to liquid heat pump is just silly. You will have to be a plumber to get that to make sense. Air-air units are easy to install, a lot cheaper and they will make a big difference. Half of Norway has them to heat the house during winter, and some years it will get hot enough in summer to use it as air con for maybe two days.

@jmi5969

2 жыл бұрын

@@quadcopter Air-to-anything is fine for warm countries like Australia or Norway - well, probably excluding Svalbard. But it the temp regularly drops below -20C, the only way to go (apart from burning fossil) is geothermal.

@brentsoutar7495

2 жыл бұрын

Yes when it gets extremely cold then heat pumps become less useful although if Norway is using them they are probably fine for most of the world especially if you have some old type electrical fan ones for the days it does get crazy cold. I also opted for lots of split systems instead of one connected large unit so if one breaks all the others still work. I'm in a hot climate so mine are used 90 percent for cooling. I've never seen these water based ones before and I'd expect the cost would be insane. We do have hot water system based ones in Australia that utilise heat pumps although not many people have them because they are quite expensive and from what I've heard more prone to failure than the simple kettle style ones which are cheap although cost a lot more In electricity.if you know the channel technology connections he has recently done a few good episodes on heat pumps, apparently they are very uncommon in the USA which surprised me as they have heat pump air conditioners but don't bother making them reverse cycle. In Australia they can pretty much all do both heat and cooling.

@fairyheli2

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I can just buy a mini split unit for around 1500, install it my self and keep gas for hot water and emergency heat. And you get Aircon in the summer as a bonus

@GR46404

2 жыл бұрын

@@jmi5969 I really don't know anything about this subject, but I have never seen ANYONE say "a warm country like Norway" before. Are you sure you meant Norway?

Real nice professional job, I'm curious about what you used for the heat loss calcs, did you use the SAP or the CIBSE heating design guide? I've found SAP to not be accurate enough for larger domestics with complicated fabrics and heat gains, especially with very precise systems like these that you can't just oversize to cover up a bad survey job.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Heat engineer software which is really just a CIBSIE

Hi. Just wondering what is the power usage of a heat pump. Is a 10 kw unit using 10 kw per hour .Or is there a way to compare oil burner as an 1 gallon jet per hour. And as with oil were i can put it on for 2 hours or do you have to leave a heat pump on all the time and let the stats cut in and out

@BenIsInSweden

7 ай бұрын

no, heat pumps are rated by heat output, not by electrical input, you can check the spec sheet of the unit, and either it'll show the max wattage or amps - either as a max rating or fuse size (which you can multiply by voltage to get watts)... As a rule of thumb the max draw is about 50% of the rated heat output, however, this isn't what the heat pump will be running at most of the time, and that will be lower when set up correctly. Even with an oil boiler you are (in most cases) using more oil having it running for 2 hours a day only vs having it trickle heat in at a lower flow temperature, with a heat pump that saving is even more pronounced. Heat pumps don't use a thermostat in the typical fashion - as they make it more inefficient, instead they are set up with weather compensation - like a gas boiler (and probably oil boiler) can. Where it adjusts the flow temperature based on the outside temperature to target a set indoors temperature. That isn't to say you can't use it in a way that is controlled by a thermostat, you totally can, but generally it's going to work out more expensive, unless your house is completely vacant most of the time.

Szymon, your videos are second to none. You always take time to break things down clearly, what your opinions are and most importantly why. I think your channel is really underrated, and you still manage to find time for a good sense of humour. Thanks.

Class installation,I'm a commercial engineer but find your channel very informative,keep up the great work,wish all engineers were so thorough.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

thank you for watching!

What type of refrigerant did you use? Thanks

@patrickwheeler2646

2 жыл бұрын

The Grant unit is R32 so pretty good but not the best, the new R290 is almost no environmental impact.

Hi there, fascinating video. On a really cold winter's day, how many units (Kw/h) of electricity is that particular house with the heat pump using, in comparison to say the hottest day in August?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Assuming cop of 3 on the coldest day (-3 all day and night) it will use around 4kwh every hour so 90kwh. That is if we get a full 24h of below zero temperature. Obviously on a day with temperature above 18c the unit is off so uses zero kWh. Hot water generation will be done by solar plus heat pump on cloudy days. Cylinder needs around 8kwh to be fully recharged from 10c to 50c by the heat pump, so energy usage on hot water is be around 3-4kwh (cop of 2.5) per 24h if used by 2-3 people everyday.

@oldcynic6964

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers "Hot water generation will be done by solar plus heat pump on cloudy days". So you need to add in the cost of solar panels as well ! Please include that when you produce your next video showing all the costs. Thanks.

Roger point is that running cost of heat pump is more than Gas Boiler which is true. Because most people run their Heat pump below COP(Coefficient of performance) of 3. COP of Heat Pump should be above 3 if they are going to replace gas boilers and reduce utility bills. Achieving COP greater than 3 is very difficult if you are using Radiator with heat pump. COP depends on Temperature difference between supply water temperature and the outside Temperature. Heat pump are effective when the supply water is around 35ºC -40 ºC range , even outside temperature falls below -15 ºC. At this temperature range COP will always stay above 3. The solution is to use underfloor heating even for first floor to get the best out of Heat Pumps. Under floor heating can provide effective heating even when supply water is around 30ºC provided it is designed by professional. Those massive radiators take space specially in a Music room and look ugly and will struggle to heat the place up when outside temperature falls below -10ºC.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

running cost of gas is usually lower because gas is cheap as electricty is taxed more heavily than gas. This will have to change.

The only downside to heat pumps is where I am theres a lot of stone walled buildings with awful insulation. The Emmitters need to be massive in them and it's just not practical. Thats no fault of the Heat Pump though

Maybe not related to the video but I remember you using testo's and kane's manometer for tightness test. Which one would you prefer ? Also do what gas sniffer would you recommend ? Thanks

I’ve an ASHP. Water heated to 35 deg into our underfloor heating. Hot water for DHW set at 45 cause that’s what we like shower at. Total electricity cost for year (space heating, water heating , light, appliances etc) €1500. Far cheaper than our old house with oil. Insulation is key. No point fitting these systems to old houses that aren’t sufficiently insulated

@carlfoster9408

Жыл бұрын

lucky you, our electric costs are more like £5,000 for the year, with this very Heat pump installed into a new build house all callcs done for the RHI grant. very efficient and cheap in the summer months but seems very expensive in the winter, maybe more efficient compared to gas but with gas being cheaper per KWH than electric makes it a very expensive way of heating our house.

When I saw those radiators, I instantly thought of the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey 😄

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Would have to paint them black for that. I guess those space aliens understood heat pumps perfectly and were heating the moon with them - lol

@Wonkabar007

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Monolith black would definitely look good to sci-fi fans 👍

@colinvanful

2 жыл бұрын

yep i can see them fitting in well in a two up two down town house in the uk .lmao!

10:00 You've got to be kidding me!! They're awful. To help us out with the debate can you give us some figures please? What was the total cost of the install? Edit: I saw 20k on another comment. What CoP are they achieving? Pre & post gas/elec kWh? Really need some real world numbers for this.

@keyserxx

2 жыл бұрын

What debate?

@ChrisLee-yr7tz

2 жыл бұрын

@@keyserxx Heat pumps...

I know I will probably get a lot of negative feedback but watching this video reminds me are we looking for the right solutions. An example: a person works 100 kilometers round trip from home and he sells his car and get another vehicle that is 25% percent better on milage. An improvement that could be resolve by moving 25% or more closer to work. In this video I saw no evidence of increased thermal performance of the building envelope and all homes have the possibility of super insulation and air sealing resulting in dramatic reduction in required thermal load. A small heat pump definitely has uses such as domestic hot water supply, but the requirement of a 17 kw heat pump to alleviate but not fix a poorly insulated home is just the thing that makes the world and society in general still not looking for smart, efficient, long term, low life cycle costs that need to be mandated and installed in both current and new housing standards. A group of us where talking about the weather in summer at the current time because it was quite hot and one fellow said that he had just spent 28000.00 canadian dollars for a ground source geothermal system. When I said that if he had spent half that money on insulation he probably wouldn't need much of a heating and cooling system. His face turned white when he realized what I had said.

What's the COP for your 50degree design temp at 2 degrees outside?

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

This one was designed to 45

Have you got recordings of the external unit turning on and off? That’s when the aircon near my window makes the most annoying noises, not when in continuous operation. Also, have you got recordings of multiple units turning on and off after multiple years of operation?

@jameslewis875

2 жыл бұрын

they do make noise, especially on defrost change over

@brackcycle9056

2 жыл бұрын

Would be good to see & hear different models in action ... visitors centres etc ? it has to vary between make & model , & newer models not old enough . . Seems to me even a low db noise can be annoying, but might not hear it if double glassing etc.

Hey Man, very good informative video's. A lot can be learned from them! I am a technician my self in Belgium and i am amazed how different you guys do the piping!

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

what do you guys do diffrent please?

@Autonomegast

2 жыл бұрын

I mean mostly the piping. We don't use copper for underneath the floor anymore, mostly only multi layered pipis, each pipe goes straight from the collector to a radiator. Thats bcs if there will be a leak, long term. Its mostly on the connections and nog underground. We use copper, but only in places we can see the piping. Like from the boiler to the collector.

Hi UP, excellent install and explanation. Can you put a link or tell again the name/maker of those flow adjustable valves? TIA

I do wish you where up in Cheshire. Really do appreciate how methodical and tidy your work is as I’d sign you up in a shot to have reviewed our needs.

If they had spent this money on as many solar panels as they could get on their roof, and 30kw/h of batteries, they would have a much better system. The insane amount of pipework and labour involved in this is just ridiculous.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

They did. Solar panels and batteries were already in place before the heat pump installation. The system pay back with current energy prices is surprisingly short and saving quite substantial At the time we did not know what the energy market would do!

@coooooool12342

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers what’s the payback?

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

@@coooooool12342 what's the payback on a new 20K kitchen? Or a new 20K car? Although this should be cheaper to run than gas and the system should last twice the time of an average gas boiler, it is not done for the payback. This technology saves energy as it uses up to 80% less energy than a gas boiler or direct electric heating and creates much less pollution. Your payback is cleaner air and less CO2 plus some money saved on bills. Obviously, there is a lot of badly installed air source (as there is loads of badly installed boilers) - on heat pumps problems are more pronounced and obvious though.

Thanks, excellent video, I am a Chemical engineer and well used to piping,pumping,controls,heat transfer etc, but this is a very complicated install, well done. However no way in my house, not enough room left, already loads of room taken up by solar controls and home battery, and the radiators are huge. New builds are going to have to plan for a plant room for all the energy saving equipment.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

this install is actually much simpler than a typical gas boiler S or Y plan and takes the same amount of space internally. We just got used to the combi boiler that fits in a kitchen cupbarod. The mighty hot water cylinder is coming back.

@petercollins7848

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers You must be kidding! It looks like it has been designed by NASA to launch rockets! And it must cost thousands, instead of a maximum of £2k to replace a boiler. Also you can hear the fans already on the recording, and the radiators are the ugliest things I have ever seen!

Hi Simon, wat kind of electronics regulates the system. Because You have also a ballanced cold system and a 3-way valve for buffertank or central healing.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

It’s a diverted valve between CH and DHW on hot water priority controlled by the heat pump PCB with NTC sensor going from the HP to the cylinder. CH is 100% weather comp with no room infuence

I've not been involved with ashp's, how do you get around getting the tanks to over 60c for legionella? does the immersion heater make up the difference?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, immersion heater is turned on once a week. In this case however there is also solar PV doing hot water.

So they cost a fortune to install, generate relatively little heat, need highly skilled fitters (good luck in UK) and need more pipework than a power station. But, hey, they "work".

@zoidberg444

2 жыл бұрын

I'd be highly doubtful they actually have significant carbon reductions given the carbon emissions associated with actually manufacturing everything required and installing it and then probably having a shorter life span than a gas boiler.

@jasonaris5316

2 жыл бұрын

@@zoidberg444 I beginning to suspect it’s more about reducing actual energy usage than any carbon reducing measures (as good chunk of electricity is gas generated anyway and that is not changing anytime soon)

@martinconnelly1473

2 жыл бұрын

@@jasonaris5316 I have replaced my gas heater system with a heat pump and my annual kWh usage has halved. The current increases in gas prices mean that my annual gas bill has gone up by £8 per year as I only use it for a gas hob now. My electricity bill is going up but only about 20% compared to the horror stories about the increase cost for gas fuelled heating systems. I went for a heat pump as I did not have radiators installed and the cost and disruption associated with fitting a radiator system was something I wanted to avoid. I have an air to air system that supplies ducted air around the house and can be used to heat, dry and cool the air.

@jasonaris5316

2 жыл бұрын

@@martinconnelly1473 we are not allowed air to air systems here in the U.K. (as they don’t want additional air con being run in the summer) it’s all about energy use reduction

@WARLEOD

2 жыл бұрын

@@zoidberg444 I dont understand this love for gas heating? Have you never walked down a street and smelled leaking gas? It is everywhere.

This reminds me why I don’t want one.

How much did this installation cost the.householder? Thanks in advance.

I have a question for the experts. My current 24kw combi boiler is set to 58 deg c. We are very satisfied with the room temperatures after an hour of the CH being turned on. Does this mean there is a good chance we can get away with just a ASHP and the rads and pipework are OK? Its currently 22mm pipework

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

it depends on the property heat loss. If you set your flow on the boiler to 60 and you are acheiveing 21 inside when it is -2 outside then you may be close with the radiator sizes. Pipework will depend on the heat loss though. How big is your property in m2 and when was it built? Is 24kW a combi boiler?

@cooliocrib4409

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers yes its valiant ecotec combi 24kw or 22kw not sure. Its a 4 bedroom 1930s build. There's no cavity wall but we now have triple glazed windows which made a big difference. Just done a edit the boiler temp is set to 58deg and I'm sure it could be set lower and run for longer. We usually turn heating on just 2 or 3 hours at a time 2 or 3 times a day when its 0 degrees outside. The inside is never 21deg its 19 deg which we actually like.. im actually in London

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

@@cooliocrib4409 4 bed with triple glazing and roof insulation should be below 10kW heat loss. Althogh heat pump may work on your current radiators it would not be very efficienct to run it like that. The bigger the radiaotrs the lower flow temperature required and higher efficeincy. There is no running away from large rads, unless you install UFH or have a very well insulated house. The fact that you can drop flow to 58 when it is 0 outside means that heat pump would work fine in your property, but you may still have to upgrade pipework (usually just primary piepwork), install new hot water cylinder and change some radiators or move them around, etc.

@cooliocrib4409

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers i remember watching a video some months back. You are in London right? How far is NW4 from you?

there's no way this system will fit in my new build house not to mention 35% of my patio will be gone and then i would need to protect this pump from my son kicking a ball

Having worked with heat pumps since 2005, here are some reasons they don't work; Insufficient radiator surface area. Since heat pumps cannot supply 80 degrees C like an oil or gas burner can, you need larger radiators. If you replace a burner of some sort and if the chimney runs through the house that heat is lost. Need to be accounted for. There is a lot of cheap junk on the market. Don't buy it. A heat pump is not a heat pump. Improper commissioning. Care must be taken to adjust flows and temperatures correctly.

@alerighi

2 жыл бұрын

If you run your radiator at 80C, you have very bad efficiency even with a gas boiler, since condensing boilers operates more efficiently at lower temperatures. To increase the surface area you can simply install fan coils, in reality heat pumps make sense with underfloor heating, fancoils and forced mechanical ventilation with heat recovery. Also using radiators or only underfloor heating with heat pumps is stupid since you can only use it in heating mode, you can't use it for air conditioning at all.

what course did you do to get your knowledge.. I'm a gas engineer and wanting to get into ASHP but don't wanna do a basic course that is no good and shows your how to install them but barley any technical data.

Just out of curiosity can I ask total cost of materials without labour on that 1 install please ?

@martinshemmo256

2 жыл бұрын

Nope, it's a secret, everybody is asking it 🤣 But rough guess around 25k and probably same running cost as previous has system

Roger all the way. I feel sorry for the customers you’ve got to remember that’s there house not an industrial unit ugly radiators and ugly ashp. Once the demand for electricity goes up the so will the price with electric cars and so on. It’s easy to lower your bills just buy a jumper and turn your heating down a bit and save the planet and money. Not rocket science.

@mensor

2 жыл бұрын

Good luck telling elderly relatives to just buy a jumper and 'man up'. FFS.

@lapisredux

2 жыл бұрын

@@mensor good luck paying their fuel bill when they run out of cash.

@chatteyj

2 жыл бұрын

@@lapisredux I know lol its like when the news says people are choosing between heating and eating and I'm like really lol? Are they? If you don't eat you die don't you?

@DavidMartin-ym2te

Жыл бұрын

@@mensor Foolish sound bite remark. CH was almost unknown in the 60s and 70s - why is it the go-to thing now? Consider - who benefits from the colossal cost of this system?

Great video !! Hope our insulation and Bond & Seal helped. Its our Primary Pro insulation which we have started to manufacture as ASHP Installers were using our Condensate Pro to protect their waste pipe from the HP to the drain. They asked us to make the same for the 28mm distribution pipework, so we just launched Primary Pro insulation. Making sure all the joints are sealed is an important part of the installation/efficiency. Our focus was to make the products UV & weatherproof out of the box, easy to fit in all weathers, look quality, and be simple to look after throughout the life of the HP /system. Videos like this are vital to get the message out that heat pumps work, and the common sense approach is needed to help end-customers understand what is needed. Heat loss calculations, survey. Good advice from the start. Quality specification/costing, so the end-customer understands. Installation with nothing missed or made cheap, that will affect the efficiency and life of the system . Commissioning to fine-tune every post . Hand over/customer understanding. Last but not least, annual services of the system to assure the very best efficiency. Keep up the good work and videos, and I hope more and more will do the same to show heat pumps will 100% play a part in fossil fuel reduction and quality energy efficiency.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Hi and thank you for the comment. I find it hard find and to buy your product. What is the best supplier / website please?

@rhythm242able

2 жыл бұрын

Lol vested interest much?! Pahahaha and can't even get their wonderful product. Smh

How do you do your heatloss calculations for a project like this?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

using software - heat engineer or long hand calcs or a mixture of both

@joshperkins2683

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks!

Love your channel, I tune in all the time, your passion and knowledge is second to none. Honestly you're a legend. However I'm a central heating repair specialist and the perfection required with heat pump systems worries me, also excites me too. It worries me because even with the correct doses of corrosion inhibitor, servicing and maintenance, these systems are going to sludge up but with far more dramatic results. For instance, I powerflush systems ALOT, like three flushes weekly minimum all year round. Small 6 to 8 rad systems running on 24kw combi boilers chucking out 80° flow temp, they still fail easily due to magnetite build up, valve failure, even with inhibitor in. Rads just stop working. With heat pumps I feel that the systems are so finely balanced and sized, that a few years in there's going to be a significant reduction in output and efficiency due to system corrosion, especially as large radiators are notorious for magnetite build up. These systems have big potential to fade away performance-wise and are owners really going to spend the extra money on a far tighter and more expensive maintenance schedule, maybe or maybe not? Keeping these systems in tip top shape is going to be significantly more costly than gas boiler systems overall which outweighs heat pump cost savings. I'm equally excited as this is going to create massive earning potential for my company, as installers tend to cut and run on this sort of thing, leaving problem solver engineers like me to make the repairs and perform regular maintenance. I don't mind picking up where installers left off, it's a very lucrative market fixing other plumbers problems! That boiler scrappage scheme and the scheme aimed at subsidising replacement boilers etc, many of those LTD companies chucked in replacement boilers willy nilly then folded once they'd exhausted the funding. Barely anyone those systems were flushed out and dosed correctly, just a mini primary water filter chucked on which five years down the line is about as useful as a chocolate teapot. This is definitely going to happen with the heat pump craze; bodgers are going to cash in. Anyway, think you're great and look forward to future videos 🙂

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

You have to remember that those systems operate at much lower temps and that means that the rate of corrosion is greatly reduced

@777mjt

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reply. In theory Yes and I see Heat Geek also mention reduced temps = reduced corrosion, thermal shock etc, in their videos. All best case scenarios though, not particularly taking into consideration the widespread neglect of system maintenance in the UK. Time will tell, there's definitely going to be maintenance requirements further down the line which installers won't want to be bothered with, that's when I turn up with my thermal imagery & powerflushing equipment 😉

@777mjt

2 жыл бұрын

By the way, your pipework is amazing, your hands must be green from all that installation work, they don't get a break 😄

Nice install.........BUT what was the total cost of the installation?

@martinryder6910

2 жыл бұрын

£15 - 20K

Szymon its great to see your knowledge expanding since that 3/4 story house you did. Did you sort you MCS out in the end or is it through Heatgeeks? I've fitted quite a few heatpump now and even with gas boilers, everyday is learning and evolving to be a better engineer. We have a vast industry of 'engineers' that can't even pipe an s plan!

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

yes its through heat geek. I do not even have time to quote for jobs at the moment so MCS is really a no go for me.

And now I understand why heat pumps cost more over the pond. When I think of a central heat pump, it's always air-to-air. Not air-to-water

so your taking a bit of heat from out side then heating it up with the compresser a bit like a steam engine which condenses the steam and reheats it in a boiler if right your getting most of heat from compreser cus i carnt see that there is that much advantage is that right or there is a big advantage .?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Yep just like a steam engine mate - it’s called steam punk engine I think

My house isn't small but I would need to buy next doors house to fit the plant and pipes for a system such as this. It all makes so much sense now 🤣🤣🤣

@rickmartin626

2 жыл бұрын

If there’s ever a video to prove heat pumps are beyond most peoples means, this is it. Just stay active (if you can)and wear more!😂

@petercollins7848

2 жыл бұрын

I can just see all that equipment fitting into my one bedroom flat. There is only one problem though, I wouldn’t fit into it afterwards! 😩

I’ve been attracted to this idea but it is too complex, regardless of system design. Even OP had to correct himself with return this and that, valve this and that. I bet it does work well but it still has an immersion heater. And these guys are experts. I’m not going to be an early adopter. I’m leaning to the Roger view for the time being. ROI doesn’t seem to be reasonable.

@jonathanrose456

2 жыл бұрын

Heat pumps are designed to capture the additional air temperature from outside… great during the summer months if you have a pool. Expensive during the winter months (when you need it most) unless you have a solar or economy 7 solution in place. ThermalPV & localised phase change storage is a much better solution for most domestic properties… & cheaper!

@carlosgaspar8447

2 жыл бұрын

it's an industry that will reap the rewards of government subsidies; whether it's affordable or not.

@PKWeaver74

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, forget the planet we just want to see return on investment amiright?

@iangelling

2 жыл бұрын

@@PKWeaver74 no you’re not right. Cutting down on energy usage helps the planet. My focus is on making my house more energy efficient. New windows, additional insulation, having everything serviced regularly, just a few initiatives. I’m even considering panels as we have a south facing roof. But something that costs too much and still needs old tech to ensure hot water is not something that I’m going to adopt until the tech improves. I hope I haven’t pulled the rug on your smart arrested comment but hey, some of us think in more than sound bites😅

@PKWeaver74

2 жыл бұрын

@@iangelling No, you haven't. I'm in the same boat as you, doing exactly the same thing but we still need pioneers who can afford to be the early adopters on principle, then economies of scale can reduce prices. I'm not opposed to what you said, just throwing one of my sound bite thoughts out there to agitate for a response 😉

If you run the closed loop at 48 degrees, how do you stop the system from turning to sludge due to bacterial growth?

The problem is as you said, electrical system needs upgrading, pipework needs upgrading, new radiators, installers need to be very competent because if any small bit isn't done correctly it won't work, it's expensive, it needs monitoring regularly, a low paid worker in an ex council flat in liverpool just cant afford this.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Flats should go on communal heating systems - it will make the cost and maintenance affordable.

Very informative, feels like we’re going back in time having a room dominated by huge radiators…

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

why do people hate big rads? I love them!

@SardiPax

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Can't do much else with a wall covered in radiator. Can't put a shelf there, a cupboard a picture, wouldn't necessarily even want to put a chair in front of it. Probably fine for people with giant mansions but for the average, tiny UK home it's ridiculous. I'd like to see a domestic install of a High Temp Heat Pump (yes I know they are not as efficient but still more so than a simple immersion heater).

@stevenleighton1947

2 жыл бұрын

@@SardiPax many years ago when I was an adobe builder in New Mexico I built large vertical radiators into the walls of some homes to give out heat to spaces both sides of the wall. Built in rather than hung on is a possible solution. This is where joined up thinking between home designers, home builders and specialised trades ought to come together. I first saw the heat both sides concept used in Quarry Hill flats in Leeds. They were built in the 1930's. They also had a waste disposal system that carried organic waste from the sink to a large communal boiler to be burnt to heat water. In eastern Europe power Stations don't have cooling towers they send the hot water to heat apartments and other buildings or to aid industrial processes. A lot of good ideas lost to make individual houses more profitable for the builder.

Hey Simon, as usual absolutely stunning install. The work is a true master piece and I know you installed this to someone spec. However shame about the design and products that have been used here , the radiators are truly and shockingly ugly I would sooner have a poster of the elephantman on the wall. Cost for this was probably £25k if this is what the government is encouraging people to have ? We urgently need a new government !!!(I know of an estate that had these fitted and thus far winter cost £1500.00 per quarter , they have to be left on 24/7 .... this size probably £2000.00 per quatre...) And finally I hope who the person who sold this to the customer advised them that , after the install there's no going back to there gas boiler...cuz that will be the next thing this incompetent government will make law...people you have been warned ⚠️ Don't be fooled.......a master piece of workmanship Simon as always 😉

@xxwookey

2 жыл бұрын

Even ths govt is not going to mandate a return to gas boilers. Even conservative (apart from the morons in the 'Net Zero Scrutiny Group') recognise that gas is on the way out.

@edc1569

2 жыл бұрын

£2000 a quarter, so at £0.15p a unit (we're talking the past here), that's 13,000KWh of input, now assuming you're getting an utterly atrocious CoP of 2x that means 26,000kWh of heat, lets times it by 2 for the whole of winter. 52,000 kwh of thermal input into that building for space heating. Now my 80's three bed semi requires 10,000 kwh for space heating each year - so I don't think so.

just out of interest how long did this installation take from start to finish??

I love the 4 bends at the bottom connection, nice work. Here in the USA, they only do forced hot air with the ductless splits.

@toddbod94

2 жыл бұрын

Which is the better way to use them. They don’t heat water anywhere near hot enough to actually be a viable solution for most uses.

Hey. I love your vids, but you didn't address the elephant in the room. How much did the customer pay for 28mm pipes and all of the oversized rads? To heat the same house, whats the cost for heatpump vs condensed boiler?

Looks like these people should have put some insulation in too and saved a bit on the fairly epic install. And 22mm copper to the kitchen taps? Doesn't that mean a long wait for some warm water to turn up? Interesting to see the UFH just being inlined with the rest. I was hoping to do that but not done the sums yet to check the flow rates. Nice explanation of what you've done here. Oh and I was just admiring that nice set of bends before you mentioned it. Always a sign of quality work :-)

Interesting video, and timely with the current power price hikes and UK Energy Strategy paper. What’s your opinion on the new “high temperature heat pumps”, such as the Vaillant aroTherm Plus, that are marketed as being direct boiler replacements with no need to change existing radiators?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

They will never be as efficiency as low temperature heat pumps. I d rather pay lower bills and have large rads

HOW MUCH TO RUN IT COMPARED TO THE OLD GAS BOILER

Really appreciate the time you've taken to put this together. I'm scraping together the pennies to take the heat geek courses - ACS resits this year/van power steering failing/children... Knowledge always pays in the end. Thanks again.

@NezumiCo

2 жыл бұрын

I'm hoping the Gov will throw a large wad of money at it. Its going to need a combined effort - Insulation, Heat pumps etc, its too much for the average working person to shill out.

@jameslewis875

2 жыл бұрын

FYI there is an accredited heat pump training course just released by the CIPHE

@sip5574

2 жыл бұрын

@@jameslewis875 What’s the qualification called? If your thinking about the new CIPHE 2-day low temp heating design course then that is just a pre-requisite for the heat pump course (it’s replaced the energy efficiency course).

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Heat geek is by far the best course out there and I have been to a lot of so called heat pump training courses. CIPHE have new low temperature heating course. I have seen the book for it. Let’s see if it’s any good.

@tapplumbandheat

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks. It has to be challenging to be worth anything. I'm just a little worried whether challenging will be 'recognised' as better or whether a course of training taking a minimum AM unt of time and effort will be 'enough'. Either way, if I am fitting low temp heating I want to be confident that I understand the many variables as best I can.

What a great team you two make, quick / knowledgeable / craftsmanship at every turn.

Great vid, I got to ask though why are do you use copper pipes everywhere? I had a new boiler installed 5 years ago and we gutted the house, we used plastic piping everywhere (with the exception of where it is visible everyday, like floor to rad) and it is so much easier to work with and faster to install as well, not to mention probably significantly cheaper. I am sure there is a good technical reason you use copper, right?

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

plastic pipework has a smaller bore and fittings put a lot of restriction on flow due to the even smaller bore of inserts. Pumps have to work much harder too. Copper is far superior to plastic and will outlast it by decades. I never use plastic.

I would suggest putting the volumiser just on the heating side rather than on the common side so the heat pump doesn't need to heat it up in dhw mode (probably a negligible waste of energy but still a waste), the heat pump should only defrost in heating mode anyway but if it was to do it in dhw mode there's plenty of energy without the extra volume, nice idea about the bypass for the coil if it was to vibrate.

Shall keep my tiny basic combi boiler thank you! Talk about complicated and expensive!

@frederickbowdler8169

2 жыл бұрын

Yes he only just understand s his own system but not fully ! I bet he doesn't even Label the system they never work and rely on immersion heater or gas water heater backup .

@frederickbowdler8169

2 жыл бұрын

Also heat pumps are slow and can take days to respond to cold snaps

@tonyclough9844

2 жыл бұрын

What the gov will do is stop the spares for our combis, so within 10 years you have to buy heat pumps. The same with electric cars forced into buying them it's a form of communist gov.

@tonyclough9844

2 жыл бұрын

Have you noticed the gov implement laws that nobody wants, like Boris concreting over shale gas then digging it up. Same with oil shut down the rigs oooppps open them up again.

@Daddelcrusher

Жыл бұрын

@@frederickbowdler8169 Thats so wrong mate. I have infloor heating with a 300 meter energywell and 10 kw heatpump.

This seems absolutely insane. Why are homes simply not putting in air handlers - which would do heating AND cooling! - rather than these gigantic radiators? Absolutely insane.

@dorsetengineering

2 жыл бұрын

No grant availabe for devices that can also cool, so air-air mini splits are out (if you want the grant to push the prices you'd pay up by 4-5x :D )

@britexpat_l33t

2 жыл бұрын

@@dorsetengineering I don’t understand your comment re the grant? An air handler is no more than £500, so why wouldn’t homeowners be installing them in combination with the heatpump? Purely powering radiators alone seems ridiculous.

@dorsetengineering

2 жыл бұрын

@@britexpat_l33t ah, you mean what we call fan coil units, gotcha. People think back to the ducted air heating from the 60s and compare it to that I guess? We never got it right over here and the industry went with radiators.

Hello I have a samsung 16 kw heat pump ,can you tell me please , the most cheap and durable construction schematic for radiator heating house .I want to installer my șelf. Thank you

So it works out as a 45kw heat output@ 13kw at 45p x13 per hr, for say a 10 hr cycle, how much will that cost per yr?

Great video again! What sort of cost would that installation be?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

20kish

@ChrisLee-yr7tz

2 жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Can you do a short video on install and running costs? Maybe pin the 20k answer as everyone is asking the same question. Seriously though....who wants to spend 20k doing that. It's insane. Probably costs the same to run as a gas combi.

Complete nightmare. Avoid at all costs for as long as possible, until the government force you to have these wretched useless things installed. Hopefully by then there will be such an uproar that they'll abandon this stupid idea.

@1971dave

2 жыл бұрын

Too late, this retard we have Mark drakeford of Wales once heat pumps installed everywhere by 2030, it will be interesting to see how these tower blocks of flats are going to look, we're going backwards now you need another place for your storage cylinder, we took these out to replace with combi boiler, and we also had an immersion heater, also once this comes into force and you don't comply by having heat pump, you won't be able to sell buy or remortgage your property, the property would have to be certified with a heat pump and this is in the manifesto, these things don't work they are very noisy insufficient and the running costs are phenomenal, controversy to popular belief anybody can go and buy a boiler and fit themselves, these things would have to be fitted by a registered company at a cost of in excess of 15 Grand,

@sambrooks7862

2 жыл бұрын

One of my customers was paying less than a grand a year for electric and about 1200 a year for oil. At the end of 2020 he binned the oil for a heat pump, his electric bill for the last year was over 5 grand, with the recent price rise and assuming that there are no further increases this year he'll be looking at around 7 to 8 thousand pounds, that's £160.00 per week and the place is freezing on cold days.

@edfx

2 жыл бұрын

Depends on the location. I deleted oil burner, because it costs $300/MWh. Natural gas after war in ukraine $130/MWh. Wooden pellets/firewood $60/MWh. Soil not compatible with ground source heat pump. Electricty about $170/MWh. Gas and oil expected to go even higher. Air source heat pump is the only option which will cost the same as firewood but without hassle and smoke.

@1971dave

2 жыл бұрын

@@edfx don't be ridiculous, you're forgetting one thing, the installation of this piece of shite, in excess of about 20 grand, we fitted about 25 of these units last year, then you got the maintenance on them, the people that ring us to say they very noisy, they are huge and unsightly, not everybody has an extra room in their house or a basement and certainly don't have room in the garden, you'll be dead before you see any profit, they are an absolute joke here in the UK.

@edfx

2 жыл бұрын

@@1971dave looked it up. kerosene about $130/MWh, electricity $300/MWh. Yeah, looks like investment that would cost you more and more as the time goes by.

I've recently starty sizing my gas systems at low 50/55 degree MWT but the radiator sizes can soon get a bit bonkers and take over the room. Are there any trick radiators out there with miraculously high heat output Vs wall footprint?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

There are actually. Fan convectors

I just find all the equipment associated with heat pumps so bulky, so many homes just don’t have the space sadly

Nice job but.... Not many people would have the kind of money to install a system like that and you had the benefit of a cellar to get most of the installation in and there's a lot of pipework involved and a lot of houses don't have cellars... ! Also not many folk would want radiators the size of icebergs hanging off the walls in their homes and it's always difficult to explain to people why there radiators are only getting Luke warm when they are used to having them boiling hot almost.... ! I think the best route to take would be insulating the house by fitting new windows and doors and insulating under floors and roof space etc and if done correctly will be a good investment , I believe the heat pump market will be very small for a long long time due to lots off different reasons some of which I've stated above and the more easier and most economical way ahead will be the Hydrogen boiler which I believe will be the way ahead in the future but it to has its faults and gremlins that will need to be ironed out before it becomes the next go to product for heating our homes... Keep up the good work Simon and I'm looking forward to your next one 👍

😂🤣 WTF , was the punter happy with those rads 😂🤣 you gotta be kidding. I enjoy the content from UPlumb, HGeeks and Skillbuild . But this was really just an advert . What roughly did the install cost and how much are the running costs ? Joe public doesn’t want to know about COP figures on paper or kw/hr numbers , they want to know pound shilling and pence . HOW MUCH ? Too many people dancing around the cost issue.

i dun live in a particularly cold region but from i hear heat pump work except when you need them i.e in low low temperatures! is this true?

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

They work fine in Sweden and Poland. Temperatures there drop to -20.

I just got a job with my uncles company installing heat pumps and am wanting to learn as much as I can. Will definitely sub. Iv never used any copper pipe that wasn’t line set so that was definitely interesting to see

This reminds me of living in a Steam Punk world, it's completely unfeasible for anyone on less than 3 digit salaries plus where would all the pipework,pumps,valves,air unit, storage tanks, thermostats and massive radiators go? I'm a Marine engineer and there's just no way I'm turning my house into a boiler room. Thanks but I'll stick to burning tyres on my coal fire!😁

@kaasmeester5903

2 жыл бұрын

Remember the movie Brazil? Central Services have nothing on this guy... I've no idea either how most people will afford this. The promise (here in NL) is that we'll be able to get special loans or mortgages to greenify our homes, and that the cost of those loans are easily offset by the savings on the heating bill. But that €10k outdoor unit will have to be replaced in 10 years...

@Scuba72Chris

2 жыл бұрын

@@kaasmeester5903 Exactly! I can't believe the amount of ancillary equipment you need for one of these heat pumps. No wonder they're ruinously expensive.

Wow! I'm impressed. I didn't know there was so much design involved in these systems. I have three air to air hear pumps at home and mainly bought them for cooling during the summer months but will give a good level of heating during the winter. For now I'm keeping the combi boiler as the main source of heat but with gas and electricity going up in price I'm really unsure which will be the most economic source of heat. One is 3.3kW in the lounge and the other two in my office and bedroom are 2.5kW. I guess I need to check consumption next winter and compare.

@tlaroche38

2 жыл бұрын

Depends on your climate, if the majority of the winter is close to or above freezing, heat pumps will likely be cheaper. As you get past around -5c to -10c, your combi may start to be cheaper.. but then it also depends heavily on gas/electric prices! Also, not sure why in the UK air to air is so rare, considering how much more efficient it can be and how much simpler the installation process is I mean, I managed to install one in a freind's clubhouse in just a couple of hours, only a couple steps were easier with two people but in that situation absolutely could've been done with one person. Also depends what refrigerant your heat pumps use, R32 seems to deliver more heat in lower temps compared to the performance of R410a, but thats just from experience so don't take my word on that! If they're also inverter they'll perform much better than single speed units

@rjy8960

2 жыл бұрын

@@tlaroche38 Thank you! So many different factors to take into account. I think I need to get energy metering installed and then do a couple of weekly runs in the winter comparing the air to air and combi system for heating. Prices are totally in the air and that is the main thing. We are talking about a chaotic system. Now we are approaching summer I'm more concerned about costs of cooling the house. The refrigerant is R32. I think the push is for replacing all forms of gas heating in the UK - I personally don't think it is practical and I for one will not be giving up my combi. Thanks again :)

@tlaroche38

2 жыл бұрын

@@rjy8960 Another potentially easier solution, is to calculate your break even COP and look at the minimum temperature that your systems can achieve this In my situation, gas is 7.48p per kWh, and electric is 28.46p per kWh So to calculate, divide your gas price (7.48) by your boilers efficiency (in my case 90% or .9) to get your *true* price per kWh of heat delivered, in my case this is 8.31p Next, take your price of electricity (mine is 28.46p/kWh) and divide by your true p/kWh from your boiler, so 28.46/8.61 which gives the break even COP for my system at 3.3, or 330% efficiency Then use that COP and check with the heat pump's data sheets to see the temps that this is achieved, annoyingly I don't have access to the data sheet for my system so can't tell you the exact figure, but I know the system normally achieves a COP between 3.6 and 4 so 3.3 *should* be achievable in most conditions So formula is: Electricity cost ÷ (gas price ÷ boiler efficiency) = break even COP Sorry that this is so rambly haha but hopefully some useful info!! Might be easier than tracking energy usage depending on what info you have available Edit: also, it's totally possible to replace all gas heating with heat pumps at the moment, but the government needs to stop dragging their heels and take some propper action, as with current electricity prices and installation costs, it's unlikely that a homeowner with a functioning gas boiler will see the installation costs of a heat pump returned within the equipment lifespan which really should not be the case but hey ho, that's a whole different discussion 🤣 like anything there's so much nuance and factors to consider which I doubt the government have looked into, evident in the fact I believe you only get the subsidy for installation costs for air to water or ground to water systems, not far cheaper air to air systems I think we basically have the same setup except my heat pump system is a 3 head multi with a combi boiler for hot water as opposed to 3 separate systems

Amazing professionality, i usually build and construct everything myself but this is beyond my skills.

Who makes that low loss header please

I suspect that you are the best heating engineers. Most others would be a nightmare. Going from combi boilers to this is a giant step.

@foppo100

Жыл бұрын

Many won't be able to do this.Not in the UK anyway.

@rc-fannl7364

Жыл бұрын

@@foppo100 Problem is that there will be a considerable amount of people willing to play being an expert, and when the bill is paid and the system doesn't live up to its promise, they are long gone. Same happened years ago with companies installing plastic door frames, windows, etc. On the surface it looked like a job well done, until you find the installation flaws, that end up costing you even more in the end.

Amazing video, it would be nice if you could give us a ballpark figure of how much this installation cost, materials and labour. No need to break it down but just so we can gauge how much it cost to install a ASHP. Really nice to see the Heat Geek Assure programe already up and live 👍🏼

@PooAAAA

2 жыл бұрын

10-15k

@spencerwilton5831

2 жыл бұрын

@@PooAAAA you’re having a laugh! That would barely cover materials!

@gunsey876

2 жыл бұрын

This would be an expensive example of a heat pump installation, with the cylinder in the cellar there’s a lot of extra labour involved and a £700 prv pump

@effervescence5664

2 жыл бұрын

The heat pump alone looks to be a Grant Aerona32 10kw model, the tank, pipework, llh, controls, prv pump, insulation, radiators; £4,000 £1200 Unknown amount of pipework but allow at least £1000 £500 £500 £800 prv pump £1000 pipe insulation £2000 (12x radiators) £1000 radiator valves (estimated) Total materials £11,000 + London labour cost for potentially a week 2 people x 5 days £4000 or there about. Total estimated cost £18,000 Inc VAT

@ChrisLee-yr7tz

2 жыл бұрын

@@effervescence5664 In other words, fk that. It's really starting to p1ss me off how any videos showing ASHPs don't go through the economics. How can anyone have the debate if we don't know the facts. Need to know installation cost, pre and post running costs, maintenance costs and expected lifetime.

Great video, thanks. I have been reading up on those heat pumps that are split, seems to make the outdoor unit much smaller and smaller air-con type pipes into the house, seems like a nicer setup but a guess you need different skill for the aircon gas stuf which would complicate things? From what I have seen from Rogers videos he is mostly in agreement with you guys, just video spun a different way.

Thanks for the video again, the IMI flow setting valves really are superb.

@UrbanPlumbers

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, they are something else!