I used to believe in aliens, but then our government said they were real

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Haha I don’t think they’ve visited earth but I guess anything is possible!

@oneoflokis

Ай бұрын

😂😂 Government has to get some things right!

@romelcasillas2286

Ай бұрын

You just reversed psychology'd yourself.

@wimpymcsteel4458

Ай бұрын

The government NEVER said they were real. They said that the videos were genuine. In other words, it is a video, and the images are unidentified. That is ALL that they have EVER said. Others have blown this out of proportion.

@WalkoffGrandslam

Ай бұрын

No government has ever said aliens are real. Just because wacko people present stuff to congress and its on CSPAN and you saw some clips of it doesn't mean congress agreed with it or say aliens are real. Weirdo people present stuff to congress all the time but when it's about ufo the people who want aliens to be real share it a million times. In reality they are just charlatans the same as a snake oil salesman.

It could just be that in this region of the universe intelligent life didn’t evolve and exist at the same time. Yes our sun is ‘only’ 4+ billion years old, but we’ve been a technological species for only about 100 years. Another technological species could have existed for 10,000 years in the Alpha Centauri system right next door, but if they went extinct 120 years ago we may never know about them. I think asking ‘where are all the aliens’ is the same as scooping a cup of water from the ocean and asking ‘where are all the fish’.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Yes, we have existed for a very short time and occupied a very tiny space.

@kaseyboles30

2 ай бұрын

I will point out that technology leaves behind indicators. Now the tech of bow and arrows leaves traces that are hard to find up close in person after a few thousand years, however in 5 thousand years much of what we've done today will be still visible from quite some distance, the moon at least, for anyone looking for it even if we all perish from a fast pandemic in the next 6 months. So the bad timing answer to the fermi paradox is also a rare civilizations answer and limits how much any two given civilizations could progress relative to their distance in time and space.. We'd have no way to pick out a bronze age civilization 30k light years away. But Alpha Centauri clearly hasn't got a Dyson sphere or city world around it or we'd have spotted it by now. Note if there is a civilization just behind us technologically 200 light years away we'll have no clear evidence for a while yet as light carrying the visual clues hasn't travel here yet.

@jcs1025

2 ай бұрын

@@kaseyboles30 fair enough. One of the other arguments I hear is that we haven’t found any verified artificial radio signals. The problem with this as ‘evidence’ is as a civilization, such as ours, moves more and more to digital versus analog, it become ‘quieter’. At a distance evidence will be hard to come by. But so may up close evidence as in your example. If we went extinct tomorrow there will be virtually no evidence that we existed in a short few thousand years. The Giza Pyramids, Mount Rushmore, a few other hardy structures, but almost nothing will be left.

@marko-1987

2 ай бұрын

Wouldn't be suprised if our moon was towed in at some point in the past.

@jcs1025

2 ай бұрын

@@marko-1987 that seems like a random thought. 😂 Moons aren’t unusual. Ours is because it’s very large compared to the other moons, but we know why that is.

Unless of course the aliens are also bugs, then they're actually saying, "You're like us. We're cool with you."

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Haha I don’t think that was this particular alien’s intent in the books, but that would be nicer!

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

I think it might be projection and insecurity in a way. It's not explicitly stated but it could be interpreted that way.

@Awol991

Ай бұрын

Or - "bugs are our primary dietary element" - "we view bugs are a superior species" - "we can fix bugs"

@ErickLGonzalez

Ай бұрын

They are in fact bugs as revealed in later works. The phrase "You are bugs" was a projection on the part of the trisolarians.

@centex7409

Ай бұрын

Bugs aren't kind to each other. Especially the ones that use others to brood their eggs and feed their young. Nature even more oddly, seems to evolve towards exceptional cruelty.. Keeping victims alive as they are devoured internally or their nervous systems thrown into intense pain while hijacking their brains as the victims helplessly watch.. Like phorid flies and ants, or wasp larvae and arachnids.. Most likely the line of friendly vs hostile aliens will be decided if a species is R or K selected in reproduction. If they're crab like and reproduce in large numbers, it is likely a smart move to just hit the nukes.. Maybe not, but the odds aren't exactly great.

Mass spectrometry kind of ruins the Dark Forest theory. There's no hiding by "being quiet" when technological civilizations can analyze the chemical makeup of planetary atmospheres from vast distances and detect signs of life and signs of industrialization.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

If they can see life from that far away, we might be in trouble.

@kirkdarling4120

2 ай бұрын

Depending on what they think life looks like.

@KarlBarbosa

Ай бұрын

There's something in the books that has a solution for that. No spoilers.

@kaseyboles30

Ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Biosignatures. We've already seen a few near signatures. Biosignatures are chemicals and compounds (detected via spectroscopy) That only have biological sources. We've spotted things in concentrations that seem highly unlikely without life, however one such spotting couldn't be confirmed at the highest level and the other is waiting for a crosscheck against another combination of compounds that could explain the reading and be non-biological.

@oneoflokis

Ай бұрын

We can even do that ourselves to an extent, can't we?

Or... Maybe the Fermi paradox can be solved by three words from "Red Dwarf:" "Everybody's dead, Dave."

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

That could be true!

@Patrick462

Ай бұрын

Even Kochanski? Even Snake Plisken?

@willmfrank

Ай бұрын

"Everybody! Is! Dead! Dave!"@@Patrick462

@lucarinaldichini324

Ай бұрын

That makes 4 words

@bobfg3130

Ай бұрын

Not really. They could have left the planet.

You could have also gotten the same result with: *_"Do Not Answer"_*

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

That would have been wise!

@calencor

2 ай бұрын

i would still respond with "k"

@esecallum

2 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime based on the assumption that all aliens think alike... like communists. unlikely as everyone has different thought patterns

@wades2132

2 ай бұрын

Who dis

@ianfitchett2768

2 ай бұрын

The prisoner's dilemma

In the Foundation series, human built robots exterminated all other sentient beings in the galaxy, then covered it up because they know humans would feel bad about that.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

That would be an interesting explanation!

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

reminds me a bit of mass effect xD

@kaseyboles30

Ай бұрын

@@DekkarJr Isaac Asimov's exploration of humanities ability to limit robots to only being good for humans via the three laws (and later the zeroth law) and the unintended consequences that could occur is an influence any story with synthetic intelligences will likely show.

@tim71pos

22 күн бұрын

It is not in the original trilogy. Maybe it's in the fourth volume that Asimov wrote decades later?

@hogenmogen8545

18 күн бұрын

@@tim71pos I don't remember where in the series it was revealed. But the question comes up in the series several times why humans haven't encountered intelligent life anywhere else in the galaxy, even though they colonized thousands of worlds from the center to the edges. Since it was worked up to be a big reveal, it would be very close to the end. I haven't read the books since the 80s or early 90s. I don't even remember if it was revealed in one of the books the three B's wrote.

This is a really interesting idea and one of the reasons The Dark Forest is one of my all time favourite books. It puts a whole new perspective on the search for extraterrestrial life.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I enjoyed the whole series but The Dark Forest is an all-time favourite!

@Robinhood1966

8 ай бұрын

​@@WordsinTimeAm going to read it now! Also because Lue Elizondo recommended it to me along with the first book in the series.

Like the discussion. "You are bug" truly encapsulate everything about Dark Forest theory

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Haha thanks, it was something that grabbed me and summarized my reaction to the theory.

And here we are, broadcasting our existence out into the dark forest..

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Uh oh. Haha.

@Robinhood1966

8 ай бұрын

IF there is a sufficiently advanced species with Earth as it's home for millions of years, they might have a EM field bubble around the solar system's theorized Oort Cloud, that prevents any signatures of life from being remotely detected on our planet, and EM radio signatures from being broadcast from escaping beyond it. Given it appears one type of Grays showed up after the first nuclear detention in 1945, must have rang the galactic dinner bell. That they are having to be covert, the locals aren't being so tolerant of out of town scum. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We haven't witnessed overt occupation since the Sumarians and Annunaki showed up around 4500BC, flooded off the planet around 3200BC. The true Egyptians, with Isis and Osiris set up shop and built the pyramids at the end of the Younger Dryas, 9.4k BC. Their reign ended around 6.5k BC after full scale global wars with other little g gods. The weaponry used irradiated Mohanjadaro, sank Dwarka ect. The time of Demigods ended with a deluge at 3200BC. Burckle Crator, with chevrons in Madagascar dating to around 3200, and Kofels' Impact in Austria as recorded on a copied planarium tablet recorded the night sky of 31xxBC, with a new bright star's trajectory drawn out in ambiguous detail. Other additional evidence indicates this was the flood of Noah, a deluge rainout instead of titanic tsunamis during the Younger Dryas. That is when all indications of myth, religions and text describing actual gods living in temples requiring daily offerings of food, wine and anything else they desired ended. Has been a different set of rules of engagement since. Covert contact on a very limited scale since. It is in mainstream records that Earth gets impacted on average each 3k years, for over 200k years now, this last run of 5k years is the exception rather than the rule. Modern humans have existed well over 500k years, but yet only 200 years of any scientific and industrial advancement. That is another anomaly I hope we find out the explanation for in the next few years as well if Disclosure efforts are successful enough by then.

@a.p.e.x3195

3 ай бұрын

Our signals have potentially already reached 29 habitable exoplanets…whose to say that a fleet is not already en route.

@user-tq6hj8bh9y

2 ай бұрын

Its not a dark forest. Its more ike living in a sponge. In dark forest, everyone can smell your poop and know where you are , unless you poop in the dark stream....

@czarcoma

2 ай бұрын

Since the start of the internet we're more like going more silent, by basically eliminating the use of broadcast radio.

Here's a more disturbing three words: "They're already here." Also, any star within 70 light years that has a civilization, is already watching "I Love Lucy" reruns - so it's too late to hide.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Haha it’s possible!

@du5707

2 ай бұрын

Naah. Signal is too weak and overwhelmed by natural signals

@ze1977

2 ай бұрын

Aren't these four words?

@kayakMike1000

2 ай бұрын

​@@ze1977no, contractions count as one word.

@johnculver6994

2 ай бұрын

Those signals would be very weak.

The 1960s Science Fiction writers of The Twilight Zone already figured this out. The episode “To Serve Man” … It’s a cookbook!

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I’ll have to check it out!

@Soitbegins_

2 ай бұрын

Classic! I’m surprised that many haven’t seen or are aware of the twist at the end.

@EmeraldEdge72

2 ай бұрын

Well said, I will check this out also I have to mention that youre very aware of story formulas. I was not exposed to this formula but now I am.

@rogershore3128

2 ай бұрын

That is a chilling episode. Who needs Hannibal Lecter........

@jrkorman

Ай бұрын

I was looking through comments to see if anyone got here first. Can't believe "Words In Time" would "have to check it out"!

The first author I know to address the theme of the dark forest was Lovecraft. However, this was a little subtle, it was up to the reader to discover. And I think that was what he referred to as cosmic horror.

@WordsinTime

3 ай бұрын

Interesting! I’ll have to do more research on Lovecraft.

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Lovecraftian horror is the existential dread of being inconsequential to the universe, to the extent that our continuing existence is at the total mercy of beings that do not care about us.

@TheStanishStudios

2 ай бұрын

@@spamfilter32Or even just by not being significant enough for them to take notice… like bugs!

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

@@spamfilter32 Yea i always thought it was centered in that weird dissonant feeling of dread and foreboding of the idea of beings existing that can drive you insane just by living in a village nearby their location. And that's the least of all lol. I really got into it because of Bloodbourne altho i was aware of Lovecraft before because Metallica reference his work in a number of songs, "The Thing That Should Not Be" in particular as an example has really dissonant minor chord structure that invokes a lot of that type of dreadful anxiety. A strange and unique flavor of fear. Interesting.

we farm every resource......so would they. This is a Farm. We see the farmer once in a while and just like a cow in a field, we dont understand what we see or why.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

That’s an interesting way to look at it!

@brendanh8193

2 ай бұрын

To serve man, yes. 😂

@kayakMike1000

2 ай бұрын

Do we farm every resource? No, we avoid certain resources because we don't want to kill off the last of some salamander or bird or whatever. You're one of those types of people that just see humans as bad. Treason is a crime, dude. You're a bad human.

@Byronic19134

2 ай бұрын

You made a big assumption that they would have to farm as well which is not true, in fact it is highly unlikely an evolved species would even need sustenance anywhere near the level humans do.

@Xander1Sheridan

Ай бұрын

@@Byronic19134 what does need have to do with it? If they are technologically superior, their desires and whims are all that matters.

Just got to book 3. Its amazing so far. This series is a modern classic.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Awesome, I’m glad you’re enjoying it! Let me know whether book 3 melts your brain haha

Do not respond

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

The universe’s largest game of hide and seek haha

@anarex0929

2 ай бұрын

Yet a depressed woke women will respond... 😅

@cobracommander192

2 ай бұрын

Cleanse or hide

@LEXICON369

2 ай бұрын

Come. I will help you conquer our world.

@SebastianBlix

2 ай бұрын

Thank you.

*"A long, long time ago....In a galaxy far, far away"* Brings a whole new meaning in this video !!

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha

@johnsmith1953x

Ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Maybe Lucas was right? Who knows? Maybe Lucas is really an alien historian from such a galaxy? Ha.

Greg Bear’s fantastic books The forge of god and Anvil of Stars were also based around this solution over a decade earlier (and they also took it a step further suggesting a potential solution to the one sided interpretations of this paradox)

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I have read Blood Music, I’ll have to check out those books next!

@planetdisco4821

2 ай бұрын

I once met Greg Bear in the late 80’s and chatted with him for about an hour. He signed all my paperbacks including Eon and Blood Music. He also told me he’d signed over the movie rights to the latter and they weee going to use the same type of morphing CGI that they’d used in The Abyss for it. Man I would have loved to have seen that. He was an incredibly decent guy that was genuinely interested in chatting with a mullet haired apprentice boilermaker in greasy overalls that was also a massive science fiction nerd. RIP Greg. You were one of the greats…

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

@@planetdisco4821 That’s a great story! Glad to hear that about Greg!

Great Video Johnathan, liking the new format!

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate the feedback Jack, I thought I’d try something a little different with this video so I’m glad you liked it!

I love this trilogy. Its the deep dive into science that I love, and its take on the Fermi Paradox. I personally subscribe to the "the universe is just too damn big" explanation but that doesn't mean I don't love other takes. I'm watching the Chinese adaptation and there is no way Netflix is going to come even close to doing as good a job. But oh man. I could write essays on this trilogy. It's just brilliant. I'll need to dabble now in this author's other works

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

I’m glad you found it as fascinating as I did, and that you’re enjoying the Chinese adaptation!

Great discussion Jonathan! I just finished 3BP, and I really enjoyed it. I haven’t read Dark Forest yet, but I know the theory. It’s exhilarating and yet terrifying to consider.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Awesome! I’ll look forward to your reactions to the rest of the series!

@dicky-duck6632

Жыл бұрын

​@@WordsinTime ship slicing in this Three Body TV episode in KZread: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gZqr1duyftarlZc.html

Given that our own biosphere is replete with examples of convergent evolution, it's actually very likely that alien life looks much like life on Earth. The search space of possible solutions to the problems of survival is full of fixed, Platonic points. Daniel Dennett explores this in his book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, in which he points out that every non-sessile organism needs a propulsion mechanism, must locate, consume nutrients and expel waste, pruning the search tree down to the extent that most multicellular life has a mouth and sensory organs at the front, and ejects whatever it can't digest out the back. Limbs of some sort have also evolved many times in different lineages. So it wouldn't surprise me if there are vaguely "humanoid" aliens out there, and planets with Earth-like flora and fauna. That is of course assuming they have biology similar to ours, and evolved in similar environments....which of course may be a bigger assumption than we realise! As for the Fermi Paradox, I'd say the vast majority of life is stuck in simple mode, such that we might not detect it even if we were stood right on top of it, let alone from thousands of light years away. Perhaps civilizations are so stratospherically unlikely, we're all simply too far apart to ever find each other or make contact.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I think there’s a good chance that if there are multiple species of aliens there might be some common biological denominators.

@TheOneWhoMightBe

Ай бұрын

Interestingly, feathers have only evolved once.

I read the "Three Body Problem" trilogy about a year ago and have struggled with the intent many times. Your explanation had me going "ahha". You just got yourself another subscriber. Looking forward to what else you have to offer.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I’m glad it was helpful! Welcome to the channel!

before reading dark forest: yea, spaceships!! after reading dark forest: Please stop every space development right now

@WordsinTime

10 ай бұрын

Hahaha FACTS

@brendanh8193

2 ай бұрын

Why? We are already looking for signatures of life, and aliens have had over 500 million years of a high oxygen world to find us. If they haven't done so by now, there's not much we could do to stop them.

@meta5175

2 ай бұрын

After: oh shit we sent that human artefact spaceship out are we doomed

@downtostandup

2 ай бұрын

The cockroaches are watching us closely for their parents.

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

it was stopped til recently lol

I think recent developments point to a possible answer. Technological advances are coming with increasing speed with no slowing or end in sight. In the not too distant future, we will probably have to choose to merge with our machines or be left behind by them a perhaps become “bugs” to them. My assumption is that all organic intelligent life will eventually face this situation. So maybe there are many machine “civilizations” out there which are not governed by organic needs to blindly procreate, expand territory, conquer, etc. Super intelligent machines may have their own priorities and perhaps we just aren’t that interesting to them.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

That’s a cool theory!

Adding this here because you said that you like the idea of friendly aliens. There is a small series of books that are incredibly light soft sci-fi that you might enjoy. The first book is called “the long way to a small angry planet” by Becky Chambers. It is very light, fun character driven story that happens in space with aliens.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the recommendation Ed! I own the first book but haven’t read it yet. I’m glad you enjoyed series. I’m looking forward to it!

The "we have a talent for killing our own species while shooting in foot, causing our biosphere to die, choosing psychotic leaders" problem explained the Fermi paradox just fine.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

That’s definitely a possible explanation.

Very interesting topic. I haven't read these books. They've been on my radar but to be honest I've been intimidated by them. This topic is however something I've pondered from time to time and this explanation is one I've considered. Maybe life is rarer than we think and intelligent life even more so. Maybe traveling vast distances at light speeds isn't possible. Maybe within the scale of billions of years we don't exist at the same time as other intelligent life forms. Or just as these books suggest, we are not worth getting to know. Either way it's a fascinating topic. Great video

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Dale! Yes, it’s a mind boggling idea to think about, with plenty of possible solutions. And Cixin Liu’s is one of the scariest!

@dawnssound

Жыл бұрын

Watch the Chinese eng subtitled series on youtube that covers the 1st book.

I hate to be a party pooper, but I think the most likely solution to the Fermi paradox is also the most mundane one - that (A) there aren't any other advanced civilizations in our galaxy and (B) intergalactic travel isn't possible, even for an advanced civilization. The reason intergalactic travel probably isn't possible is because the galaxies are moving away from each other faster than the speed of light. While we'd like to imagine a technology that would enable us (or some aliens) to move faster than the speed of light, in practice that'll probably never be possible because it would require breaking the laws of physics. So basically even if there's an infinite number of advanced civilizations in the universe, none of the ones that are outside our own galaxy will ever reach us or vise versa. So once you rule out ever encountering aliens from outside our galaxy, the next question is how likely is it that another advanced civilization exists in the Milky Way. It's estimated that there are around 300 million potentially habitable planets in the Milky Way, and that may sound like a lot, but you need to consider how long it took to go from the first basic life forms to even the first multicellular life forms. We basically spent most of our existence in the primordial soup, which suggests that even if a planet has the right conditions, complex life isn't as easy as it sounds. As for life that also has advanced technology, that's not easy either. Just consider how many species ever existed on Earth, and out of all those species, see how many of them ended up developing advanced technology, and that can give you an estimate of what the odds are of a planet that's teeming with life, to also have an advanced civilization on it - in other words, about 1 in 5 billion.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Lots of great points!

An absolutely brilliant (and terrifying) trilogy. I just finished reading the authorized followup by Baoshu, _The Redemption of Time_ and it's a terrific homage/companion.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Nice! I’m glad you enjoyed The Redemption of Time as well Sandra!

Thank you for sharing the video it was very interesting. ❤ I will check these books out. 🙂

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I’m glad it was helpful, I hope you enjoy!

Awesome, nicely presented!

@WordsinTime

9 ай бұрын

Cheers! It’s a scary theory haha

@thesci-fished

9 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime indeed, it really is if you stop to think about it. I recently reviewed James Blish "A case of conscience" that was dealing with alien contact and reconciling with faith. Somewhat less scary 😁😁😁

I’m amazed at how little mainstream traction this series has gotten. Aliens are in the news more than ever and no one ever thinks “hey let’s not scream out to the universe”

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Interesting point Mason! The series currently has a few adaptations so I think that will introduce the books to a wider audience.

@bryceronie

2 ай бұрын

😂 hopefully things will come together and the universe and parallel universes will agree for it to be on Netflix or something hopefully we can hope !! Think together we will !

@brendanh8193

2 ай бұрын

I believe there is already a series on Netflicks, though I haven't seen it yet.

2 ай бұрын

The little mainstream traction might have been caused by the general cynical, depressive and anti-human atittudes of the protagonists. Maybe it’s the communist China thing. There’s also the obligatory “wokiness” that comes with Netflix adaptations, it’s losing traction with mainstream audiences for a while.

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

@ ya there is some wokeness in the show but idk it didnt ruin it for me. The way they visualized the sophon technology was rly cool. What a terrifying technology. And it's all "plausible" based on theories so it feels like the power of it and the way it can be used across space time instantly is rly love hard science.

Great book series, the TV show is on KZread too (I'm watching it in Chinese to practice my listening, it's quite difficult given the science but definitely a fantastic adaptation)

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

I look forward to watching the show!

"They are almost here" would be pretty terrifying to hear

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Agreed!

The message "You are bugs." was meant to instill fear in humans. Which was kind of an odd thing to do. The aliens said that humans only lived to our modern times because our early ancestors had fear. Fear that we now no longer possess as the apex predator on earth. Our lack of fear is what lead us to our impending doom at the hands of the aliens. So reinstalling fear in us is, if we win, what brings us our victory over them. They should never have reinstalled fear into us. That message was a tactical error, and proof that the aliens are capable of making mistakes.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Great points! The aliens wanted to instill fear, but they made a mistake out of desperation.

I read the 3 books in Jan, and enjoyed them very much.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

I’m glad you liked them Bill, I thought the ideas were crazy!

One other things about bugs...given enough Tabasco sauce, bugs are also tasty and good sources of protein.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Haha I’ll take your word for it.

@toddkes5890

2 ай бұрын

Maybe the San-Ti just want To Serve Man?

@saucevc8353

Ай бұрын

“There’s food all around you!”

Regarding bugs, how many ambassadors has the U.S. sent to ant colonies? Also, if advanced aliens have evolved true intelligence they may have dispensed with their biological components following a hybrid biomechanical phase. How physically large could a machine based intelligence be? The comparison to insects could be more than metaphorical. The transition to mechanical existence would also much simplify long duration space travel. Look at our own exploration of the solar system, humans have only gone to the moon but our machines have gone to all the planets and beyond. Further, if "goldilocks" or "incubator" planets are rare then the Earth could be a priceless opportunity for them to study the evolution of true intelligence.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I think it is more likely we encounter machine intelligence first as it will be able to travel farther.

@mastervel7210

2 ай бұрын

"... More than Meets The Eye 🎶"

@georgesj.5995

Ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Yeah, rendez-vous with Omuamua, er, Rama !

The Marsbound trilogy by Joe Haldeman has a powerful, hostile but not terribly violent alien civilization. They are ok with us living our primitive lives and are able to remove tech which makes us less primitive. Their solution is quarantining the bugs.

@WordsinTime

11 ай бұрын

I’ve read The Forever War, I’ll have to check out Marsbound!

@vilstef6988

11 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime I've enjoyed everything I've read by Haldeman!

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

Reminds me of the show Colony. They literally have ships that come down and form massive walls around cities and in between the districts of them to control humanity. They weren't a "hostile race" either - but were at war with another species that had beaten them across the galaxy until they arrived at earth and decide to imprison it and force labor camps to mine in deadly conditions and also forces the humans to go along with it and help them fight or they both die - interesting premise.

This doesn't solve the Fermi Paradox, it merely settles on one of the known outcomes of said paradox as its main plot.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Yes, it’s a proposed solution.

Really interesting idea. Our ideas of alien shapes may also be very limited, maybe they can evaporate into air and then rechange their form into anything they want. I always used to joke in bad/challenging situations that an alien was writing my life script and having sadistic fun with it. Now I think that is more likely than God. 😄 In the Matrix the robots say that humans are a virus. Given what we are doing to earth this is another good explanation.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

It’s super interesting/scary to imagine the capabilities of aliens. But these differences are what make for intriguing science fiction!

@p5yc40naut

2 ай бұрын

The physics of liquids and gases in this universe virtually ensures that all life will be solid. There is simply no way to contain energy in the form of a gas or liquid that would ever allow for the formation of even simple life, let alone complex life.

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

@@p5yc40naut yeah it needs to be able to move around and grasp objects in order to gather resources. Even a bacteria and a virus are solid objects that can move. It would have to have a reason to ahve developed something like that and the physics need to make sense as well. It's not going to have any kind of "super powers" like being able to change into a mist or something unless its an adaptation to an extreme environment. The trisolaran's dehydration ability is found in species on earth like Tardigrades which can survive in extreme heat and cold and even in the vacuum of space for around 5 days in stasis. The thing about science is it has to be justified and has to make sense given the elements and physics involved. Reminds me of the film on Netflix Spectre. It's about a city of people that are turned into an ethereal form later determined to be Bose- Einstein condensate, a fomr of matter that occurs between others extremely briefly.

Words in Time: There is several things that is never talked about that should be concidered. 1: The "Easter Island Effect". A Civlization uses up too many resources. This means that The civilization is thrown into a total death. 2: The "Shoots, and Ladders Effect". This is that a Civilization uses up too many resources. this time can only go become a Tier-I civilization. All other levels is permenantly cutoff. 3: Each time a Civilization goes up a Tier, The chances of Total Death incresses. 4: One part of humanity makes it into space, hundreds of lightyears away. Back home humanity faces The "Easter island Effect", or the "Shoots, and Ladders Effect". So the humanity returning would see there cousins in the stoneage. This creates the issue that, the first aliens we meet would be ourselves. Think about it this way, The UAPs could really be just ourselves.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Interesting points!

This made me remember a dream I had as a child that terrified me for days and still makes me shiver sometimes. I dreamed about an alien invasion to Earth, the aliens came to take over our planet after theirs had become uninhabitable. When someone asked them "And what are you planning to do with us, humans?" they just replied, coldly, "We'll just kill you all"

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Haha oh no, that’s not a fun dream!

Fascinating. Might get to this series this summer.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

The ideas in this series were mind blowing. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

My idea of why we don't know the extra terrestrials... the velocity of the expansion of the universe is at a rate far beyond what a physical being can possibly travel. The universe expands at an exponential rate. The force of gravity is merely the inertia of the constant rate of increasing expansion. We don't usually notice this expansion because our bodies are expanding at the same rate. But for each passing second, more and more galaxies become increasingly inaccessible. I believe the ETs were here, in the distant past, but had to leave before a certain time, to eventually return to their home, which, by now, is outside our observable universe... This theory also explains why there were more visible stars in the past, than there are today. I am no astronomer, nor any sort of reputable scientist... this is just an idea. Go ahead and disprove it in the replies. Thank you.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Those are some interesting thoughts Michael! I believe this could be applicable to distant galaxies, but there are stars/planets in the Milky Way that could theoretically be more accessible. Interesting to think about!

@Hunpecked

Жыл бұрын

@michaeldooley8744 According to current theory, the Local Group of galaxies is too closely bound to fly apart. In the distant future the Milky Way, Andromeda, the Magellanic Clouds, and all their satellite galaxies will merge while watching the rest of the universe recede into invisibility. Most visitors to Earth from the Local Group will see their homes actually get closer, though over a time scale of billions of years.

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

There were more stars visible in the past because in the past light pollution was inconsequential. The same number of stars are visible to the naked eye today as there were 10000 years ago as long as you go to a place with no light pollution. For the expansion of the universe to be a hard limit on how far away they could originate and still get back home while traveling at the speed of light, puts a hard limit of about 7 billion light years away. Many many galaxies away from us. If that is the case, Life in the Universe is truly rare indeed. That also means that when they got here, the earth didn't exist yet, and wouldn't for billions of years yet to come.

The vast size of the universe added to the fact we as a species have only been around for an extremely short amount of time. This basically boils down to being in the right time and place, which clearly we are not. Perhaps alien civilizations did exist but they went extinct before the earth had any life. Perhaps there are civilizations that are simply beyond our ability to detect. We are far too primitive to detect anything out there, if there is anything in our range of technical ability at all. We can only see a tiny fraction of the universe we occupy. A teacher once said to the class I was in, "Meeting aliens is somewhat similar to picking a random place and going there at a random time and expecting to see somebody you know." You've got to be in the right place, at the right time.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

These are good points. Perhaps as either our technology develops or alien technology develops we will be in the same place at the same time.

Loved the books. " Singer" to me reveals a big clue I think. Their "core" on their ship can track a signal to star positions going millions of "time grains" ago. My impression of their measures of Time, plus the nature of their extreme physics breaking engines. The "Seed" or spacecraft they are in has been operating for 70,000 time grains. I got the impression Singer and others are cleansing Universe wide not simply one galaxy. All of them.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Great points!

I am still a bit intimidated to read this series if I am being honest, but although I have had this thought before, it is definitely an interesting, and somewhat depressing, concept.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

As long as you don’t mind the focus being on the ideas more so than the characters I think it is quite readable. The first book is only 400 pages if you want to give it a try.

@cindywingetbooks

Жыл бұрын

@@WordsinTime good to know. Yeah I don't mind that at all 😉

@ilselauwers6009

Жыл бұрын

Try listening to them on audible . The performance is really good 👍🏼

Honestly, I’ve never read the books, but I’m not worried about spoilers, since I’m already a very spoiled person in real life. However, I should also point out that as a science fiction writer myself, I’m actually struggling with the Fermi Paradox, but that the Dark Forest Theory could be a suitable solution to my problem. Just a small disclaimer: my writing is kinda’ the opposite of Hard SF, in that it’s probably Soft Science Fantasy. As long as my style or tone is similar enough to Star Wars or Star Trek, the Dark Forest Theory honestly doesn’t bother me too much.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

That’s cool, hopefully this helps inspire some ideas for your writing!

@toddkes5890

2 ай бұрын

One idea might be using something like the Ferengi in your story - an alien race that goes around trading slightly higher technology to every planet the traders come across, to make money. As a result the various worlds get uplifted in technology to roughly the same level, but they have made the Ferengi very wealthy. For these traders, it is less of a 'First Contact' situation but more of a 'First Contract' situation.

Haha! I have not read the books (though they are now on my "to-read list" because of you) but my first thought was that cockroaches supposedly will survive a nuclear war! Don't count us out yet! Your doggie shirt is awesome too!

@WordsinTime

11 ай бұрын

Haha thanks Trudy! And yes, there might be some hope for us bugs!

The moment we try to hide, they'll definitely jump at us. It's universal.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha Murphy’s Law is universal

Just finished The Dark Forest and, just like some fellow friends from this (and Fit 2 Be Read's) channel said, it blew my mind. I love that Cixin Liu gives us some seemingly random facts that reappear later in the novel (like The Curse, or the ant in the graveyard). The Doomsday Battle was awesomely depicted and as I was catching my breath came The Battle of Darkness... Incredible!!! I guess I'll take a break and read some lighter stuff before I begin Death's End.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Yes, there were some great payoffs! Death’s End is pretty heavy, but I think you’ll enjoy it!

Personally, I find The Dark Forest hypothesis unconvincing. The universe (even the Milky Way Galaxy) is unimaginably vast, and even our own solar system provides ample resources for our own species to support itself to the point where we could have multiple trillions of individuals living splendidly luxurious lives if we could only master the advaqnced technologies required for interstellar travel aand colonization. So it really won't be about resource competition. And in a way, Liu actually makes this point in the series. The Tri-Solarans are really a special case. They live in a freakishly unstable stellar environment with three suns and are doomed by the randomness of the concomitant orbital mechanics of the system to eventual extinction. That issue, unique to them, is the impetus for their attempt to conquer earth. Without the threat of such an apocalypse would they have single-mindedly devoted all the resouces of their civilization to conquering earth? I don't think Liu could have made a convincing case they would have, so instead he focused on the extreme case to advance his central thesis--which is a fallacy, I think. I rather believe that even if there are multiple civilizations in our neighborhood and they become aware of each other, they will find travel between them onerous, and mounting an expedition of conquest and/or extermination both prohibitively expensive and utterly unnecessary. The more likely scenario by far is one of trade of rare goods and knowledge to the mutual benefit of each species. Even if conquest of the other species home world were possible, it's likey the conquered world has such an alien biology that none of its biomass would be at all useful to the conqueror, necessitating that world be scoured clean of the original life forms, before the conqueror could "Terraform" the world with its own biosphere. If that's the case, wouldn;t it just make more sense to start from scratch and do that on a lifeless world? Certainly the galaxy has plenty of those. More than enough for all sentient races to expand to the sensible limit of what they can control and benefit from. So the Dark Forest seems like a piece of forced pessimism advanced on the back of the most unlikely of alien contact scenarios. Just not bloody likely.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Lots of interesting points here! The Dark Forest theory is rather bleak so I would prefer this to be the case!

@tookie36

Жыл бұрын

We live on a vast planet with plenty of resources to go around and yet we chose war and destruction for millennia. Liu points out the unique combination of distance, advanced technologies being the catalyst for the kill first ask questions later idea. The tri solarans weren’t the extreme case. They were a weak society much like ours. The case he made was for the societies at war that could manipulate the fundamental laws of nature and districted entire universes for their conquests.

@mariusg8824

3 ай бұрын

What's special about the Trisolarians, is that due to their specific circumstances they had to try an invasion. Otherwise they could have just obliterated earth without any warning. Since human technology progressed faster than their own, they knew humans would finally overcome them. Liu also made a point about the universe being so desolate, because it is the remnant of all the destruction that happened before. So from your perspective the universe may seem big and rich of resources, but an advanced alien might look back and see all the damage that has been done due to threats that were countered too late. In a world where life is so fragile and the environment so hostile, the one that fires first will probably survive longer.

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

@@mariusg8824 The problem with the Dark Forest hypothesis is that it presupposes that the Universe is dark, and that hiding is possible. Neither of these assumptions are true. The forest is lit up the red-light district in Amsterdam, and hiding is impossible. Our planet has been broadcasting biosignatures for a couple of billion years, and any civilization within 100 light years has already seen our techno signatures. All without ever receiving a radio transmission from us. and the referse is also true. We are at most a decade from being able to see bio signatures from extra solar planets and maybe only that far from being able to find techno signatures as well. No one needs to actively communicate for everyone to see everyone else (or at least the possibility of everyone else). In space, hiding is impossible.

@davidwuhrer6704

2 ай бұрын

​@@tookie36There is an error in your assumptions. Humans didn't spring into life randomly distributed over the planet, we have spread from a common point of origin, bringing our conflicts with us wherever we went. War was rarely about resources, for most of human history there was more wilderness than cultivated area. Still is if you count the oceans. But humanity never went to war with bears or cats or owls or squids. Or bugs. While humanity has largely managed to isolate itself from the ecosystem that gave birth to it, we still share this space with everything else. The biodiversity in cities is higher than in the countryside. The collective biomass of snails is equal to the collective biomass of humanity. The collective biomass of all insects is higher than the collective biomass of humanity plus human agriculture and pets and farm animals. We are not at war with them and are not trying to colonise their ecological niches.

Reading this, shook me to my core.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Cosmic horror!

Though an Alien civilization may view us as "bugs" if it is truly intelligent they would still appreciate us. A lot of very intelligent people devote their lives studying bugs. I like in the movie Idiocracy how cruel the idiots are. Intelligent beings appreciate other living things and respect them, respect their property rights etc.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I would like to think that would be the case, but there may be hostile aliens. The meaning behind the message gets expanded upon in the sequel books.

If an alien civilization is technologically advanced enough to traverse the distance between our worlds, we would be so painfully uninteresting to them. If you were driving down the road, would you stop and say hello to a murder of crows scavenging for food? If we're ever contacted by aliens, I would be highly suspicious of their intentions, because I can't think of a single reason we would be of any interest.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Because of the risk that we have a technological explosion in the future.

@kirkdarling4120

2 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime That would be reason to be suspicious of their intentions.

@nilus2k

Ай бұрын

They may be uninterested in us as intellectual equals but they may find us amusing to watch. Like a nature documentary about primates or going to the zoo.

I still choose to believe that the Dark Forest Theory emerges from our current level of sociological development. I think as a species we will continue to evolve to the point that the scales will one day fall from our eyes and we will see war and violence against each other as completely barbaric and unimaginable as an advanced society. To me it feels as if we are struggling mightily to leave behind our tendency towards violence and hierarchical behavior that has served as a necessary component of evolution. Because it seems impossible that we could ever reach a level of complete non-violence, it is very difficult to imagine that other advanced civilizations may have left their destructive thoughts and behavior behind. The kill or be killed behavior that we have today seems to stem from a belief in scarcity of resources, perpetuated by capitalism, along with jealousies about love and anger created by group think and ‘othering’ people that we believe to be different. But these are all social problems that we will surmount, as will other technologically advanced civilizations, especially those capable of FTL travel, if that’s ever a thing. Since there’s really nothing we can do about it anyway, I might as well believe that it will all work out eventually.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

I love this theory Stephen! Definitely a more optimistic and less bleak interpretation.

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

We will either advance past capitalism, or it will prove to be a great filter. We better advance fast or we only have a handful of generations left.

@gpcovenant

2 ай бұрын

I think much of this stems from a complete misunderstanding of what we inherit culturally vs what we inherit biologically. The current power structures are heavily invested in the idea that scarcity, specifically are fear of scarcity, and violent reactions to it, are genetic behavior that can’t be changed or only changed with incredible effort. I whole heartily reject the position that violence and fear of scarcity are genetic. I believe that is true under conditions of extreme stress. Remove that stress and most people very naturally want to work together and make life better for one another, vs kill each other to survive. We do not have anything like that in our world today. Our stress is manufactured (some combination of intentional and unintentional actions) and then justified and explained away by the current power structure in order for that power structure to itself survive. Simple put, we are being kept at a biological stress point that very often will lead to violence, not that that is the only place we can exist from. The violence is not genetic, stress is, and one of the effects of stress is violence. A reason this is not obvious is because even after you release the stress point, it will take time for the stress that has built up to release. If that is a human probably a couple years. For a society though it is probably a couple generations for the already built up stress to fully release in the system.

1:01 mad props to you, when you began the segue “Before we get started…” I cringed expecting the obligatory “Like and subscribe” pitch. As if content creators have earned it before we’ve even seen the video! But it was just a spoiler warning. Cool.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

🤜 🤛

I love the idea of dimenionally folding something down to the size of a few atoms, then hurling it at almost the speed of light to a planet light-years away. Still reading Dark Forest. Absolutely loved Three Body Problem. Best SciFi I've read since reading (Arthur C.) Clarke's books long ago. Amazingly visionary authors, both.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Yeah, that was super cool! And I think there are some similarities between Cixin and Clarke!

I recently finished watching the Season 1 series on Netflix, but have not read the novels (But I am going to order them as I am curious.) The interesting thing behind the message "YOU ARE BUGS" is it seems to be a paradox. On the one hand, yes it expresses hostile intent of the aliens. On the other...if they really, truly thought that, then why would they go to all the trouble of sending two world sized supercomputer complexes to Earth to spy on us and interfere with, recruit from, and interact with us. Of what possible use is it to interact with, interface with, gain knowledge of intensions of, or even to influence the behaviour of a fire ant colony in a field? If you have a dangerous pest in the field that could harm your crops, your cattle, or your children...you don't try to negotiate with it or try to encourage it to change its ways...no, you eradicate it...with no more thought or malice than dumping insecticide in the nest. To such beings of obviously such advanced technology, we would be bugs, our eradication would be quick, efficient and effortless to them. So why didn't they just go that route. They want dialogue. Negotiation. Their intentions are not entirely hostile. Their back is against the wall. However, I would also argue that to such beings as the San-Ti, their first choice of worlds, already inhabited by us, was a poor choice. Surely they would have developed the ability to find and easily terraform a new world to call home. And, almost as easily, they could have moved their own world, carefully nudging it into an artificial, "unstable" stability where over millions of years they would no longer fear the "chaotic times." Engineering on sufficiently large scales could solve the problem. The Three Body Problem is well known in orbital mechanics. There is no stable passive solution...because the system is chaotic. The only solution that will ever work is how we keep space probes in orbit around our moon (it is a "simple" three body problem Earth, Moon, amd Sun:) you must navigate it actively...we use thrusters to keep the probes where they belong. For the San-Ti, an artificial satellite the size of a large asteroid (Ceres sized,) equipped with thrusters could be utilized as a gravitational tractor to move their world in tiny nudges that would be enough to keep it oncourse for stability. The "Dark Forest" solution to Fermi's Paradox is a dark solution indeed...having you feeling paranoid, and looking under your bed at night. Our civilization is but a baby kit in the forrest. I choose to think that microbial life may be common in the universe, but complex, intelligent life might be incredibly rare. Honestly, I'd rather be lonely than waiting for the exterminator!

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Those are some good points. I think the explanation is that they were afraid of us having a technological explosion. On a cosmic timescale we could potentially advance quickly, which is why they wanted to stop our scientific progression and tried to do so by threatening us.

@TyMoore95503

2 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Exactly...we were targeted. So, why have a dialogue at all when a much simpler solution of "block the sun until they all freeze to death" would do.

@AUniqueName

2 ай бұрын

​@@TyMoore95503I agree- the show kinda makes it seem like the Sofons are only capable of "hacking" us- messing with our science and tricking us with illusions, but I can think of so many ways these interdimensional AI weapons can indirectly wipe us out easily. I think we are not supposed to know at this point, but the San Ti probably have a reason for this. They can already study us with the Sofons, and they don't seem very "emotional" to the point of wanting to keep us at pets- so idk what the reason would be, but I'm banking on there being a reason

@toddkes5890

2 ай бұрын

Their first attempt was trying to be 'friendly' with us. The Sophons helped form and protect ETO, while stopping advanced science and providing 'miracles'. I'd see the Sophons setting up the ETO to slowly and steadily take over Earth so there would be human allies willing to welcome the San-Ti fleet when it arrived. Then the San-Ti learned about deception, and decided they could not live with liars. The "You are Bugs" occurred after that.

@jonsnow7092

2 ай бұрын

The only paradox is you claiming to have seen the show and yet still ask questions that were thoroughly answered.

What are bugs best strategy of survival?? To stay in one location forever? Or to expand much to fast and spread everywhere until there is so many of us that it is impossible to get rid of??

@WordsinTime

10 ай бұрын

Interesting question! Is it better to stay hidden or spread out? Hopefully we don’t find out the answer haha

@violentgravy01

2 ай бұрын

We are the bugs. ​@@WordsinTime

@bryceronie

2 ай бұрын

We let animals live in nature, or in a zoo, maybe... we already are.

@mikekolokowsky

2 ай бұрын

In the Dark Forest books, a colony of a species suddenly views the home world as an alien threat and tries to kill them.

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

Ants travel farther than any otehr species in relation to their size for food. And are the most successful creature on the planet in terms of biomass >:)

the most interesting thing for me the books reveals not matter how advanced aliens civilizations don't have warp technology but empty space drones without life inside they can achieve high speeds and sub atomic weapons is used to annihilate planets from far way without the necessity of them going to colonize others solar systems

@WordsinTime

17 күн бұрын

Those were some cool ideas!

@MarcosSantos-dj6lk

17 күн бұрын

@@WordsinTime very realistic The Three Body Problem trilogy is more hard sci fi and Iove it

The San-Ti may be a class 2 civilization but we have the homefield advantage! Moreover, the San-Ti needs us more than we need them. Even having a class .8 fighting against a class 2 will likely result in extinction of both races.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Good points!

Spoiler ahead: Trisolarians are bug like creatures...

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Quite the reveal!

Bugs tend to be completely ignored, unless they get into the house and do something annoying. So there's that too. Other than that, I think developing technology is a rare thing and that's even with intelligence.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I guess you might want to preemptively stop bugs from developing the technology to get into your house.

@pauljs75

2 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime Ants have already had the means, and proven capable. I don't wage battles against all the nests outdoors near the house, only the colonies with interlopers that make it in. And the simplicity is they take the poison bait back to the nest themselves. So on the galactic scale... I could see another intelligent species being communicative at some point, but be wary of any of the "gifts" they offer.

@Strideo1

2 ай бұрын

"Bugs tend to be completely ignored.." Tell an entomologist that. People have a wide variety of reactions to bugs from fascination to disgust to apathy. Aliens would likely be the same.

@davidwuhrer6704

2 ай бұрын

​@@Strideo1An entomologist is someone who doesn't ignore bugs. That we have a word for that supports the point that bugs are usually ignored.

@keithattwood59

Ай бұрын

The Earth is the prize, mankind is the infestation. We are bugs...

The thing I believe about godlike power and morality is the more power a conscious species gains, the more morality and respect for others they need to have, or else they would have annihilated their own species long before they achieved it. Though they may see other species with consciousness as bugs in a power spectrum, they would have love and respect for them on their journey to higher consciousness and power. Extreme xenophobia or disregard from other conscious entities would be met against them as well by others who thought the same, thus being a zero sum game. The highest conscious species would love and respect other conscious species out of necessity.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I like this perspective!

Aliens : Damn it, this planet is infested with 8 billions of 2-legged ugly bugs !

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

😂

I loved the 2023 iteration of 'three body problem ' as a 30 part TV series. One of the best sci fi dramas ever , and all in Chinese to boot which didnt detract at all. If we ever get a signal from outer space, let's not answer 🤯

@WordsinTime

5 ай бұрын

I’ve heard great things, but it’s a lot of episodes to catch up on haha

Everyone wants to go on an adventure with a quirky but lovable cast of aliens, until it's time to figure out how human body parts fit their zero-g toilet.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

😂

Help hide or hurt reminds me of the "Corrupt Blood Virus" in W.O.W. , not the spread of it but the way players reacted, they would help hide or hurt other players.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Interesting, that’s cool!

That they may be advanced, even by millions of years, does not make "interstellar travel entirely possible." Bug are only difficult to exterminate if you are trying to maintain their habitat. If you don't care about destroying their habitat, you can get rid of bugs.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I don't think it's guaranteed but I think with millions of years it becomes a possibility.

I was only listening and misheard it as “you are us” that’d be an interesting scenario too.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Haha yes that would be interesting!

If the alien civilization is so vast, diversed and advanced, then there are surely some aliens who defected. Them giving us counter technology would be best chance of surviving the attack.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

That would be very interesting!

The humans-as-bugs idea was the very premise of William Tenn’s novel “Of Men And Monsters,” from 1968.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Interesting! I’ll look it up.

There's one thing that might aggravate the Fermi Paradox by quite a bit. If we calculate the rate of how much a species on Earth's genomes grew over the eons, and extrapolate it beyond the time life was confirmed to exist here( Therefore implying Panspermia) and take the time when the entire of the observable universe was on the Goldilocks zone when cosmic background radiation made it so anywhere on the universe could have liquid water, those two times come rather close from one another. So maybe alien life could be literally anywhere on the entire universe. The whole thing is filled with potential organic material, maybe self-replicating RNAs, maybe something else. But well, we should ask another thing. Why would an alien civilization which would require FTL travel to even hope meeting us, would care about us or the puny resources here? Unless they are into starlifting hydrogen from the sun or something, we are bugs, and the whole solar system are the crumbles we, as cockroaches, are eating. If cockroaches aren't in your turf, you don't bother killing them or even coming closer. At maximum, you observe and be disgusted by their behavior.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Good points! I think the reason is the fear that they have a technological explosion and become more dangerous than bugs.

The Dark Forest theory is "better safe than sorry" applied in a universal level.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha true!

It's because consciousness evolves beyond the need for physical bodies before it gets far into the cosmos.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Woah

I dunno, the simplest explanation would be that there's no possible warp speed, there are no possible artificially created wormholes and there's no possible teleportation, and being the universe so so vast, civilizations are never able to travel far enough to find one another. Kind of sad and anti-climatic, but it could just be it.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I don’t think they would need faster than light travel. They would just need generation ships that can travel between stars over thousands of years.

@danno6169

Ай бұрын

Or they have the technology to overcome linear travel.

Humanity would have to be at the end of its rope, with nothing left to lose before it made sense to contact an alien species.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

The risks seem high!

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

It seems we are already there. At the rate we are going, we have only a handful of generations left before we go extinct.

You can know a lot about alien civilizations just by applying logic. 1. If they are technological, then they understand basic science and logic. I.e. their actions will be rational, especially on a large scale. 2. If they are capable of interstellar travel, they will be social. Meaning such endeavors require maximal resources and cooperation, so they must have some measure of empathy, at least amongst their own kind. 3. They will be wary, because they cannot know what technology another species might have. Another culture may, for example, be unable to travel in space, but perfectly capable of bio-engineering a virus that would kill any potential invader. 4. To travel between stars in a reasonable period of time would require an enormous expenditure of energy and energy has value. Ergo, they would need a compelling reason to come visit. You can safely assume that they would either A- want to learn about and understand us out of curiosity, in which case they would have said hello. Or B- we have something they desperately want or need, in which case they would have just said ‘stick em up’. As a result of these criteria- the answer is fairly obvious. While there very well may be thousands or millions of intelligent societies in the universe at any given moment in time, that we have not seen any show up means one of three things. 1. There are so many they just haven’t gotten around to us because we aren’t that interesting. 2. That no civilization that attains interstellar capability lasts very long and so at any given time there might not be one within reach. Or the most likely, 3. That interstellar travel is an obstacle that is not rationally surmountable. Either thru pure impossibility, infeasibility ( talking so long to effect that no intelligent living thing would survive to reach the destination ) or 3. Simply more costly than any Rational species is willing to commit to. I.e. We don’t see aliens because interstellar travel is not feasible or possible. The myth we suffer under is the myth that science is infinitely progressive. That everything that seems impossible to us now, science will ultimately figure a way around. There is no rational reason to think that. Traveling faster than light would violate causality. It’s possible that it can’t be gotten around. It’s possible that traveling at relativistic speeds will always require so much energy as to total all the energy produced by mankind thru history for a single trip, and so unaffordable. The Universe is demonstrably finite, and so will be our understanding of it. Thus civilizations thousands of millennia old may well still be confined to their own solar systems. Their growth limited by the usefulness of whatever rocks are spinning about their suns. It could well be that civilizations that attain our level of modern technology only last 10,000 years… and that is just a drop in the bucket of astronomical time, that no two civilizations within interstellar travel distance of each other have that capability at the same time.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I think these are reasonable assumptions!

@SilverMontegiu

Ай бұрын

1. Not necessarily. Having a degree of rationality is a must, but not everything they do must be governed by strict logic. Take humans for example. Did the moon race happen because of some rational reason? Not really, it was a political competition with no real benefit to the competitors. An alien race would not have been able to comprehend why we tried so hard to stick a flag in our barren satellite, and likely neither would we be able to understand why aliens perform their space related stuff. 2. Also, not necessarily. Working together is a must, of course, but calling it empathy is a stretch. Ants do not empathize with other ants, yet they are capable of amazing feats of cooperation. 3. An engine capable of accelerating a craft to near light speed - an absolute necessity for interstellar travel - would also be able to vaporize the surface of any terrestrial world. So if you have this technology, there is very little you could fear from an inferior civilization. 4. That may be true, unless you consider the Kardashev Scale. Energy is an issue for tier 1 civilizations, but when you get to tier 2 and beyond the amount of energy you get becomes absolutely ludicrous. Accelerating to near light speed at the very least would be feasible and not terrible expensive. And besides, this doesn't explain the Fermi paradox, because the Fermi paradox doesn't question why aliens didn't visit us yet. It questions why we are unable to see them at all. Even if they stay within their star systems, we should still get transmissions and signals. But there is nothing.

@christopherpardell4418

Ай бұрын

@@SilverMontegiu 1-The moon race was entirely rational. It was an intentional pitting of the people of one nation against another to gain technological advantage and, even more importantly, political advantage. It was, quite honestly, the most Rational form of “warfare” human being ever get involved in. 2-And Ants are a poor analogy. Ant’s are Tropic. They do not create technology. Their behaviors are set in instinct and they cannot act creatively. Termites do not ‘plan a termite mound. It’s the emergent result of a handful of tropic behaviors of which the ants have no comprehension. I would argue that even if you wanted to posit a hive mind, you cannot have a self aware hive that does not exhibit empathy. E.g. even without self awareness, Ants cooperate with one another and act to preserve the queen and her eggs. A more self aware version of ants would have the same behaviors, and all the complex insights and rationales to support them philosophically. 3-Not true. Engines capable of accelerating to near light speed would most likely only achieve that speed thru very weak thrust, over LONG durations. Like an Ion engine. But the real problem is the amount of energy it would take to do so… it would exceed all the energy generated by mankind for the past 1,000 years. And what possible rational use could there be to ‘vaporize’ a habitable world’s surface? Rendering it barren? The one thing we can be certain of is that worlds like ours are exceedingly rare. Not just able to sustain life, but to remain habitable for a billion years. The vast majority of planets that might sustain life would be more like mars, perhaps able to support life, but only for a short while before the loss of a magnetic field and the stripping of its atmosphere by its own sun’s radiation. About the only reason an alien race might have to try and reach us that would justify the budget, would be their own survival, i.e. they need the habitable planet. In which case they would be unlikely to vaporize all life on the surface. And if they are capable of their own version of terraforming, then they would be far more likely to take on the far more plentiful uninhabited planets like Mars, rather than take the risk of warfare. 4- The Kardashev scale is make believe nonsense. Entirely untethered from reality by ASSUMING a limitless progression of technological advance. There is no reason whatsoever to believe such a thing is possible. Imagining technologies that may well be impossible is not a basis for sound argument. We may very well be near the limit of what we can accomplish, technologically. I.e. faster than light travel may be impossible. Actually deriving usable power from fusion on the planet may be impossible. Limitless energy is certainly impossible, but even an order of magnitude increase in available energy may be economically untenable for any civilization. The single most likely explanation for what appears to be a dearth of civilizations is that they are all bound to their own solar systems, and their civilizations are so far away, on average, and do not radiate in such levels that we can discern anything from plain noise. For example, Human civilization is NOT detectable from the nearest star. We certainly radiate a lot of radio noise… but our signals are spread across such a wide array of frequencies with so many different styles of encoding that attenuation, and the fact that frequencies become out of phase over long enough distances makes our signals indiscernible from just radio noise made by our sun. You literally have to know an exact frequency and the precise codec of that signal as well as have a very tight approximation of location to detect the signal from Voyager, which is being aimed right at us. It would take an extreme effort for another civilization to send us a signal we might be able to detect. And We, for example, have not sent such a signal to anyone else, so far. They could all be just like us… Listening, but not talking. So, thus far, the evidence does not suggest there are no other civilizations. It does suggest that there is no such thing as interstellar civilizations.

I am challenging the initial assumptions of the video. Survival is important. Is it now? Evolution would certainly favor survival as the most important trait, but then what? There is a bug in evolution that uses rudimentary methods of driving behavior, like chemical induced pleasure, some direct stimuli or instincts that intelligence can fight against or influence/manufacture directly. I believe that Fermi's paradox is simply solved by intelligence losing, altering, shunting, removing or never adding (in case of artificial life) the will to survive.

@WordsinTime

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! Those aren’t my personal assumptions, they are the assumptions laid out in the book. But I like your different perspective!

At the start of the dark forest it describes the Ant and the spider going about their business while the darkest mysteries are being discussed but they are completely unaware of this. The micro and macro levels are mentioned several times, our macro might be another species micro so we would be like bugs to them! I often think of the universe as a giant flower and right now we are in the season of expansion on one of its many petals… at some point autumn will come and everything will shrink and start dying off, at this point we will if species survive know of each other. The universe is one big perennial flower or tree constantly being reborn over and over again.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I thought the start of the book was great!

Harry Turtledove had a good series where an alien probe went by 1,000 years ago so they decided to invade with sublight ships. Arrived during WW2.

@TheOneWhoMightBe

Ай бұрын

And things got worse from there.

@Walter-wo5sz

Ай бұрын

@@TheOneWhoMightBe I'm addicted to ginger myself.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

I’ll look it up!

@Walter-wo5sz

Ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime worldwar- in the balance is book one

Every bug feels unkillable, until you throw a planet on his head.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha this might be true

What's interesting to me is that no matter how strange the aliens are, they share some common knowledge base with us, almost to a certainty. For example, they most likely know what PI is, just as we do.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Carl Sagan’s book Contact deals with some similar ideas. It’s pretty good!

We are probably going to get extinct before the contact, but our AI descendantes could be more technologically advanced and fearsome than other forms of life. Maybe that is the purpose of humans in the universe, to creat a new form of "life" and then disappear.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

That’s an interesting thought!

I appreciate this video and in spite of my following points, I appreciate it and it is indeed thought provoking. As made popular by Carl Sagan, we are stardust. Bugs are stardust Aliens, same stardust as bugs. Dust bunnies in the back of your closet, also stardust. The space we call "nothing" could also be defined as stardust. Assuming we got a message that said "You are bugs" we'd have a lot of work to do to determine whether this was meant as an insult, a compliment, or just a reminder of our commonality with the aliens, as we would not be able to understand the sender's perspective on this. I'd look at it as a philosophical teaser intended to get us to do our job as a "thinking" arrangement of stardust and start working on that riddle rather than viewing everything from the fight or flight perspective. There's more that flows from this, but internally, I'm already bracing for a shower of hateful comments from some bugs.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

The aliens in the books have their own reasons for sending that particular message but chose to focus on the concepts rather than specific plot points as I didn’t want to spoil what happens next.

Personally I like the theory that certain evolutionary advancements require near extinction events to clear the field as it were. Then intelligent life can be extremely scarce as near extinction events are potentially much rarer than actual extinction. Then there's nothing needing explaining, if there's only like 10 intelligent species they could just have their own reasons for not communicating.

@WordsinTime

29 күн бұрын

Interesting theory!

Hey, saying that we are bugs could be a compliment or something, maybe bugs are vital to their ecosystem and they have a reverence and symbiosis with them that's so integral to their existence that it just makes perfect sense to use it in a friendly manner.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha perhaps but we know a bit more about these particular aliens!

Here is my solution on the Fermi Paradox. The development of a civilization is extremely short compared to the age of the universe, or the galaxy. Civilization comes and go, just an infinitesimal blink in a total darkness. Added with the distance between stars, not to mention inhabited stars, the probability that one civilization could contact another is very small. So, the solution is: most civilizations just die out before meeting other civilizations.

@WordsinTime

3 ай бұрын

That could be the case! Would be interesting to see if our civilization lives long enough to meet another!

@onisuryaman408

3 ай бұрын

@@WordsinTime I doubt it though. We are a very young species. And we tend to self destruct ourselves 🥲

@spamfilter32

2 ай бұрын

This is called the great filter hypothesis. Humans are dead set on proving this true as make ourselves extinct with in a handful of generations from now.

@brianbieron4733

Ай бұрын

@onisury... This is the soundest theory and you put it down in fewer words than I did. 👍

@georgesj.5995

Ай бұрын

Here enters the Great Filter

In the Bao Shu book Redemption of Time, the trisolarians are discovered to be bugs themselves. Maybe sets their statement in another perspective?

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Interesting. From the rest of the context the trilogy provides they are definitely threatening.

What would happen if it was opposite? If they searching for life and their message reach us? I wonder what were gonna say to them, will we threat them or...

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

According to the dark forest theory we shouldn’t answer haha

Interesting. And here I thought it was because the transmission power is insufficient to be heard clearly enough and the 3 word answer was: "They cannot hear us". But even way advanced aliens may have difficulties to understand human motivations to behaviour as well. This is also mentioned in the books and the series, where the cultural differences between different species are discussed.

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Yes, it may be impossible to understand each other’s biology and philosophy.

They could be visiting us all the time and they are so advanced we have no idea

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

That’s a scary idea haha

Spoiler's don't matter. I've listened to Quinn's Ideas' review of the trilogy and then had just as much fun listening to the audio book already anticipating some groundbreaking stuff : )

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

I’m glad you enjoyed!

After reading Dark Forest: "Whoa, now i'm scared." After reading Lord Of All Things: "Whoa, now i'm not scared, but deeply saddened."

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

Haha fair!

I could come up with multiple different interpretations of intentions without the two you described from that message. I would ask, if they thought that why bother to tell us? 1. They could view us as inferior but hold no malice. Like imagine if we could communicate with an ant hill using little wooden signs. It would be very amusing, you might even like the ant colony. 2. It could be a cultural difference that would reasonably develop in the dark forrest paradigm. Maybe they have a kind of warrior culture where on meeting new “people” they throw out an impersonal insult to test both temperament, impulse control, and if they are strong enough to project strength back without resorting to immediate violence. 3. It could be a cultural euphemism that does not translate well into are human language. We have multiple things like this: you are the pits, you are a sad sack, etc. nobody takes this literally or as a declaration of superiority because they are being equated to negative things.

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

That’s not the only message, we know they are hostile. It’s explained further in the books.

I like the Dark Forest theory being the positive explanation for the Fermi Peradox

@WordsinTime

Ай бұрын

It’s a possible explanation but it’s a scary one haha

Maybe the "you are bugs" incident shows how the San-Ti understand our human psyche and social media, and know how to perfectly troll us!

@WordsinTime

2 ай бұрын

Hahaha got ‘em!

@DekkarJr

Ай бұрын

I think it's projection:D