5 years prior to Flemming boarding the Cedarville the US Coast guard had ordered that the Cedars hull plates be replaced due to wastage (rust and rot), but as Flemming went on board he found out that it still had not been done and that the ships owners had asked for an extension and recieved it. Even though it was built in the same year as the Bradley and those ships were already known to be prone to buckling they got an extension. Its believd after realizing this and of course having gone through and surviving the Bradley sinking he realized just how little the companies cared about safety and the crews who sailed them. And he turned and walked away from sailing lakers for the test of his days. Good for him!!!! Outstanding video mate!

@bluerazor7049

24 күн бұрын

Who knows what would have happened if the collision hadn't been sunk, she probably would have met a similar fate like the Bradley with the lack of maintenance that was shown.

@charlesfaure1189

23 күн бұрын

Did he say this? Anecdotes from individuals are notoriously unreliable. They are a starting point, not a justification for a conclusion. People misremember, people tell tales. Always dose of salt needed there. I suspect Flemming would have known what he was getting. If he didn't he shouldn't have been assigned in the first place. As leaving the ship ended his career, I think perhaps he would have been loath to leave. PTSD works very much like what we see here--and that would end a Captain's career. As for the sinking, these icebreaker-hull ships have sunk ships in perfect shape--note the Andrea Doria. They're floating can openers. That hit would have sunk the Cedarville if she'd been brand new.

@hollieBlu303

22 күн бұрын

I'm with the PTSD theory...poor guy hasn't just got his own welfare in mind but that of his whole crew...and Flemming sounds like a commander who was worth his salt. Luck of the draw or lack of maintenance, I feel that surviving one utterly traumatic event on the lakes...then being given command of a near identical vessel, during a particularly challenging season? ...that would weigh down heavily. Edit: Another exceptional and thoughtful video!! Thank you! ❤

@andrewmckeown6786

20 күн бұрын

​@charlesfaure1189 True in some cases but not seaman. Honest to a fault, they was. As perfectly accurate as Old Testament Hebrew scribes. In fact, those scribes was emplored to be; "As perfectly accurate as a sailor reporting on his travels" ........ Well,.....so's I heard.. 😶

@Bryanja81

18 күн бұрын

I'm sure Flemming had seen plenty of rough seas between the time of the Bradley sinking and the time he walked off the Cedarville. Heck, he even worked hard enough to be PROMOTED in that time frame. So why, suddenly, would PTSD be the reason he walked away? I agree it was the realization that the boat owners do not care and that was made evident by the condition of the Cedarville. No, it did not sink due to its poor condition, but it may well have in the coming weeks, months or years. Good on Elmer for leaving.

Just when I get fed up with all the crap on KZread I find a channel that keeps me up all night with these interesting stories. Thank you.

@jonilougy6608

21 күн бұрын

Oh my Lord, ain't it the truth, friend 🙂

@ElizabethMayo-sf4wg

15 күн бұрын

I, too, am having problems wanting to keep watching...these videos are fascinating. I was thinking they should be shown to young people today for them to learn how to think, to learn the consequences of bad decisions, etc. I learn a LOT from these videos and I'm glad I trust Jesus!!

My grandpa sailed for US Steel for 40 years out of Rogers City. His best friend went down on Cedarville and was one of the survivors. Ed Brewster was his name. I used to love sitting and listening to them share memories when I was younger.

My grandfather worked on the Cedarville back in the 1940s when it was still sailing as the A.F. Harvey. For that reason I think I've always felt a bit of a personal connection to this particular disaster, seeing the photos of the ship on the bottom and knowing that he walked those same decks 20 years before the disaster.

Do we not learn? Today Boeing is operating with the same profit over safety mindset.

@simonjester0074

22 күн бұрын

No 🤑🤑🤑🤑

@spenceair1972

18 күн бұрын

It’s hard to learn lessons when one can swim in a Scrooge Mc duckian sized pool of money. Money>lives. That’s what they have learned. And most companies are never financially punished enough to teach them otherwise.

@Zildawolf

16 күн бұрын

Every airline is lol

@tedecker3792

16 күн бұрын

@@Zildawolf Boeing is not an airline

Elmer was a very good 1st mate and Master. if Elmer leaves a ship it tells you it was in very poor shape

@ElizabethMayo-sf4wg

15 күн бұрын

I agree!!!!!

I sailed on two of Cedarville's sisterships. Calumet (formerly Myron C Taylor) and Maumee (formerly Calcite II.) They both had extremely long careers. Calumet was 79 when she was scrapped, and the Maumee was over 80. They were both very tired and worn out by that point, and were very hard work to keep going.

Topdalsfjord: Built by the biggest and probably best sjipbuilders of its time. Fortified hull. Made by the highest quality steel for a cargo ship of its time. All signs that you SHOULD NOT collide with her if you want to stay afloat.

@wes11bravo

19 күн бұрын

She was gracefully beautiful too.

@foo219

17 күн бұрын

They say opposites attract, so I guess the collision with the Cedarville was inevitable.

The maritime safety culture has improved vastly over the years, but incidents like the loss of the EL FARO shoe that shore side pressure still exists.

The part that really made me shutter was the fact they could hear the limestone cargo hit the bottom. Obviously seeing a ship just manifest out of the fog is scary enough but to hear that sound and knowing all is lost is quite terrifying

@grahamsawyer831

24 күн бұрын

it's those kinda details (plus the excellent narration) that make this channel stand out.

Safety first. Keeping quota firster.

@CaptainMcMemes12345

20 күн бұрын

upwind slow, down wind fast, tonnage first, safety last

Having grown up close to Lake Erie (Ohio) and summering on Lake Huron (Canada), I’m in awe of the Great Lakes. I thought I knew every shipping disaster, but I think this is a new one to me.

@giggiddy

24 күн бұрын

Summering. Lol

@margot64fern

24 күн бұрын

@giggiddy lol I’m old. We used to “summer”

@marhawkman303

23 күн бұрын

@@margot64fern So many ships have been sunk over the years. An accurate map of every sunk ship would probably cover most of the lakes.

@Maven0666

23 күн бұрын

The Great Lakes storms are as strong as hurricanes sometimes.

@marhawkman303

23 күн бұрын

@@Maven0666 Ph yeah Mataafa was an appalling example of raw power as a wave pushed it up onto a rock and left it beached far enough out of the water to break her spine. Mataada outlived her crew, but if she hadn't stayed on that rock? If she'd sunk instead? Never seen again perhaps....

I’ve been waiting for a video on the Cedarville. Excellent video! May those sailors rest in peace

@asullivan4047

24 күн бұрын

All those dear dead departed sailors. 😇 Are currently sailing across the universe-!!!😉.

>refresh YT feed >see new BoB upload >smile >TY for another video Brad!

@DodgyDaveGTX

22 күн бұрын

Definitely not a smiley video though 😶

We all understand the Pressures of Prioritizing profit over Prevention, Protection and Planned Precautions. In spite of this, and the great amount of experience a good captain would possess, how on EARTH would he be qualified to make an engineering assessment on the hull plate strength and seaworthiness of a ship of this tonnage? Risking the lives of all aboard, and the ship herself to (somewhat) educated guesswork, no more. It's bizzare. What did the captain DO? Walk the length of the ship, rapping on the hull with a piece of rebar? It's amazing to me that they ALL didn't end up on the bottom!

You should do a video on the Laurentic class (Megantic and Laurentic) Two ships that don't get the attention they deserve

The footage and pictures you put together are astounding. I grew up close to Lake Superior and would spend many summers in Duluth watching lake freighters come and go.

I for one absolutely love your videos! Your attention to detail, production quality, accurate visuals, and compassionate and fact driven narration make these documentaries some of my most favorite Great Lakes and Ocean Liner content on YT. Thank you for putting forth such content!

Even though the spectre of "one last run" wasn't directly involved, it's spirit never seems to be far away on the Great Lakes when a freighter goes under and crewmen lose their lives. On a side note I can't help to be fascinated by how much international traffic is on these technically inland lakes.

How tf did the Norwegians get off with nothing? They refused to awnserthe radio, ignored whistle/horn signals and failed to yeild to a passing vessel

That solid-state radar dish looks like something off a Blue Devil destroyer from WW2.

@ericzaiz8358

24 күн бұрын

Probably is. Post war see alot of Naval Surplus such as those radar types hit the various shipping fleets since they were obsolete combat wise but were more then servicable for navigation and avoidance uses. Lots of the modern civilian radars in use are basically modernize versions with new computers.

@earlworley-bd6zy

23 күн бұрын

Never heard of ww2 blue devil class destroyers?,There was Porter class & Flecher class destroyers & of course the old 4 stacker destroyers.

@balin1600

23 күн бұрын

@@earlworley-bd6zy seems like dd680 got a nickname from model-builders

@williambrasky3891

23 күн бұрын

Solid state? Seems a bit early for solid state electronics, especially radar. That was cutting edge in the late 70’s/ 80’s. I think they call this style a parabolic antenna. Solid-state, at least as used since the 60’s, refers to electronic systems that utilize no moving parts (relays, switches, etc) nor vacuum tubes (fully “transistorized”) in their designs. That can’t be assumed with high power radio equipment even today (though if built after 1990, it’s safe to assume it’s mostly solid state). Radars that use a parabolic antenna can, at first, seem to meet the definition for solid state, but even if they aren’t using moving parts or tubes, they aren’t considered to be solid state devices (in a modern sense). This is because the directionality of the return with this type of radar is determined by passive means, & because this type of radar cannot do all that an actively scanned equivalent can do. To get equivalent functionality to a traditional radar, a radar like this with a stationary parabolic antenna would need to be strapped to a motor and spun around, negating the reason for using such a design in the first place. To be considered solid state, a radar must do everything a traditional, mechanically scanned radar can do without the need for moving parts.

@wes11bravo

20 күн бұрын

​@@williambrasky3891- for high power RF, electron tube finals are still often the best option.

I love these stories of the Great Lakes frieghters. Living close to these lakes all my life its interesting to hear the history of them. Its hard to believe what incredible ships were built along her shores as of course all of these shipyards have been gone for years now. These were high paying wonderful jobs that are now just a history lesson .... sad in a lot of ways. 😢

Wow not only did they defer recommended hull repairs they actually refitted her engines in order to increase her payload. Sadly at this time profits far outweighed the value we placed on 25-30 crew members lives. Cheaper to pay off the families who lost loved ones in the event of a catastrophic failure then to stop and make the repairs. Criminal in reality but totally permissable in the times. Perhaps fortunate given the lake conditions in May that only 10 people perished?

Was there ever a time when lifeboats released cleanly from the davits?

@Dulcimertunes

23 күн бұрын

Right?

There is a book on the Cedarville. The company was viewing things by the bottom line. Joppich was a career man and proved himself incompetent. The whole thing was a tragedy that didn't have to happen.

It's crazy, but I forgot about this one. Thanks for a well told story. Take care, Big Ole Boats.

Watching these videos, I see alot of footage I watched on KZread growing up, such as from "90 Years on the lakes, E.M. Ford" and the Willam Clay Ford documentary from the 60s, fantastic documentary!

My Grandpa was a draftsman for the Rouge Shipworks at one point in his career. RIP, Chester Brzezinski...

I have NEVER been this early....LOVE YOUR CONTENT!!!!

Here's an idea, just work with me here.... Ok we need to spend 100k plus on new hull plates. But! This is where it gets crazy..... lets not worry about that, how about we upgrade the boilers instead

Why does it make me incredibly happy that Oceanliner Designs is one of your Patreons? I love both of you. ❤

Finally a video on the cedarville, I was meaning to dive on the wreck here soon.

@Christian_Girl120

24 күн бұрын

I wish I could. But I have a perforated eardrum. I think it healed but not sure it would work.

@dexchex5685

24 күн бұрын

@@Christian_Girl120 you could always do drop a ROV down too and get some nice footage

Another interesting “Big Old Boats” saga. Thank you.

Great work BoB. RIP to those 10 and condolences to their families.

What a sh**show. Those poor people, and their poor families. Too bad corporations can't be held accountable for life-diminishing, if not life-ending, policies and cultures.

@DeanStephen

23 күн бұрын

Corporations could be held liable, if Congress had a spine and a set of balls.

Ever consider doing a video on the Hikawa Maru?

you are absolutely blowing me away with these videos! You’re really spoiling us lol. Seriously though thank you!

It's wild how much those big shipping companies get away with. Corporations don't give a damn about workers and safetly, only their bottom line. I'd love it if you did a video about the Aquitania one day!

@M167A1

24 күн бұрын

There's no bottomless pit of resources, you do the best with what you have balancing risk vs reward. No profit everyone starves. If you prefer safety, stay on shore

@aaronbasham6554

24 күн бұрын

​@@M167A1 6:50

@scottyfox6376

24 күн бұрын

​@M167A1 obviously the corporate suites aren't risking their lives on rust buckets. After all does everyone "really" need a lifeboat.🤔

@melissacarterpresley5786

24 күн бұрын

@aaronbasham6554, Try not to engage the attention seeking trolls.

@aaronbasham6554

24 күн бұрын

@@melissacarterpresley5786 meh, was already on that part of the video when saw it.

I'm so glad that new heavy-draft, large-beam lock is getting built in the Soo. Gotta have another Poe-sized lock for all the copper ore from the new mine in Copper Harbor to get to Republic Wire in Cleveland. The trucking industry can ESAD for killing the railroads in the US. They can keep their filthy mitts off of ore shipping.

@MrGoesBoom

24 күн бұрын

The city I live in has lots of rail but most of my life trains were maybe a once a month thing....lately we've been getting several a week. I think with fuel prices so high, plus trouble with shipping thanks to the Panama Canal having issues that shipping by rail might be making a bit of a comeback. Just a guess though based on way more trains than usual lately. Could just be coincidence.

@punkinholler

24 күн бұрын

I understood some of these words... (I know your message wasn't meant for me. It's just funny how little sense any of it makes when you don't have the context to understand it. I'm not really asking for an explanation though because I can look it up if I want to

@mikeprimm4077

23 күн бұрын

The trucking industry didn't kill the railroad industry in the US. The railroad industry is going strong. Source, thousands of trains every day across the US.

Great show. I really appreciate your video material and delivery of information. Be well!

Fantastic video! Thank you for the details, and especially what happened aboard both the German and Norwegian ships. May God bless the survivors, and grant rest to those lost on the CEDARVILLE. "And on the last day the sea shall give up its dead."

How could a 3/8 ths inch hull be sufficient for such a large ship. Basically it sounds like a paper boat. Unbelievable.

@TK-ri7pl

24 күн бұрын

For comparison.....the hull plating of a U.S. dreadnought battleship was 5/8 inch thick. Where armor plate was not present, of course. Titanic's hull plates were 1 inch thick. Paper boat.....NOT.

Hi… love your content. Perhaps you’ll consider the SS Southern Cross one day.

I remember going up and down the Duluth hill in severe foggy conditions in the early 60,s. Often it was hard to see from 😮one dotted line to the next at nite. Pulling over to one the side of the road was frightening too as getting rear ended was a possibility . I haven’t seen fog as dense as Duluth’s since.

Oh, that last line you delivered really got to me. Well done.

The Royal Yacht Britannia was one of the ships in the St. Lawrence Seaway section.

It’s easy for these company executives to make the decisions to continue the neglect of seriously required ship repairs, when they are not the ones putting their asses on the line. Same goes for their urgings to push just one more run out of them, at the end of the season, which time and time again, has spelled certain doom for ship after bloody ship. It really galling, and pisses me off to no end! Is the risk of losing an entire vessel; a major company asset, plus the loss of her valued crew employees, really worth whatever profits are to be gained from said final season runs? It’s such a cold, cynical, and appalling calculus that they engage in. I wish more of them had the courage to act as if they were going to sail their own wives and children on these ships.

Although i already know the story, and maybe in more details, your narration and how you treat the story I is so mesmerizing i just listened to the entire video as if i had never heard it. Thank you very much.

This is my favorite new channel. Thanks for what you do!

I love your videos. Only 2K more subs and you’ll achieve 110K subs. Congrats🎉. Could you make a video about the SS City of Benares sinking it is a fascinating but tragic story.

I just arbitrarily came across your channel and you did not disappoint ❤❤❤❤

Best way I can think of to stop the profits over safety issue is to make it so that if you do prioritize profits over safety you won't get to keep any of them in the end people get hurt because you're worried about money. You pay massive fines that make it totally unworth the risk

Great video as always! I enjoy your Great Lakes maritime videos and not hearing about this ship before made it that much more interesting.

I really love your channel because it almost aways focuses on the Great Lakes

Another outstanding production Sir!

Every time I hear that alarm, I know it’s about to be amazing!! One of my favorite channels.

always enjoy your videos, I grew up on Lake Ontario so it's always interesting to learn the history of the great lakes

Rogers City... My hometown!! Thanks for such a good vid on the old gal! Everyone knew someone on her. A local magazine named "Calcite Screenings" was the magazine that was published in Rogers City by Calcite. It gave many details about life was like as a Calcite employee..

Outstanding. From the first second --that blaring foghorn made my blood run cold -- it just got better and better.

Thanks once again for an excellent presentation.

excellent, more outstanding content - many thanks for posting

Very well done. Thank you keep up the great videos

The Cedarglen is still kicking.

Amazing stories. Thank you.

Thank you so much for your stories i really appreciate you.

Incredibly interesting documentary. Well done.

It was fair enough to punish the captain, but NOT to let the company off the hook. For while he was clearly the wrong choice for the job, some idiot had to PUT HIM IN CHARGE, and logically, that comes back to the company.

It’s the same story over and over with these ships and their owners. Have they ever been substantially penalized for their lack of action on maintenance issues? How were they even still insured??

I have watched four videos on the Cedarville and yours was the best. When I watched the other ones, I was left with many questions about Captain Joppich!!! I had a problem with several decisions he made, but the worse was him not ordering the men to abandon ship!! I would like to know if the men could have abandoned ship without the captain ordering it!!!!

I'm really early!! I love the content! I'm obsessed!❤

I’ve never really understood the whole profits over safety thing I mean like it stands the reason that if your ships have a bunch of accidents from unsafe conditions, and you won’t make any profits because you’ll constantly be tied up in lawsuits and things like that like how can they expect to make any money if their ships aren’t safe? It just doesn’t make sense in the long term.

Well told. Thank you.

Actually, the hull plating so often mentioned may have been a red herring… the modern steel bow of the Norwegian vessel would have sliced through just about anything short of an armored warship

Great Presentation

So very interesting ✌️ Thank you

I can't believe the hull was so thin. 3/8-inch plates are super thin for a large ship like this.

Lol, a produce bed on the aft of a freighter. Nice homey touch.

@mssixty3426

24 күн бұрын

I think he said bin, not bed.

I have watched a number of your video's about the disasters on the Great Lakes. I am no expert upon ship design. Here is my question. Why is it that the ships that ply there trade on the Great Lakes look so different from those out on the open ocean? Those on the Great Lakes appear to have the control room at the front and the engine room at the rear with the cargo area in the centre. Can anybody educate me?

@JohnJohnson-oe3ot

24 күн бұрын

To fit the locks

@cludecat7072

24 күн бұрын

these days the ships are built more like "salties" back then it was the most efficient design taking into account the design of the unloading equipment on shore and the size of the hold as well as the size of the locks

@P_RO_

24 күн бұрын

When navigation was mostly done by sight, it made sense to have the "eyes" up front. Lakers are long and narrow because of the locks they must fit through. Ocean-going ships endure storms far more frequently so they are made stronger and relatively shorter relating to their width which allows them to handle better in heavy seas. Lakers are fresh-water ships so they rust away far slower, which is why you see many older ship designs still in use on the Lakes while 'salties' are all newer and more modern designs.

@mikeprimm4077

23 күн бұрын

​@@cludecat7072it was for visibility. These ships have to navigate locks and canals, and rivers. They dock themselves, undock and unload cargo without the aid of tugs. So having the pilot house forward was beneficial. Now that navigational aids and computerized aids are at the level that they are they're starting to build them with the accommodation in the rear. Which is sad I really love the classic Laker look of the forward pilot House, with a rear crew quarters

@cludecat7072

23 күн бұрын

@@mikeprimm4077 that too. I also love the look of old lakers

Thanks!

@BigOldBoats

24 күн бұрын

Thank you!!

Omgg perfect timing for posting! I can watch this while I work!!!

The fog was so thick that he couldn’t see the bow of the ship Flying Dutchman: curse this cursed ghostly fog, I can barely see past my own nose.

Amazing that whalebacks made it that long as useful freighters...

That fog horn in the beginning gave me instant "The lighthouse" flashbacks

Where does one acquire this vintage lake freighter footage?

Ironic that I find myself watching this while vacationing in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan after a full day of ship watching at the Soo Locks….

New Boat video? Hellllll yessss

But why did the norwegian ship not answer the Cedarville's radio calls? Was nobody there to answer? Was their radio defect? Laguage problems? Were they asleep or why? Communication would have been a great help to avoid the collision (but of cause, beeing inside a giant can opener, you probably don't have to worry too much about sinking yourself). It's a bit odd

As a regular HAL mariner I was outraged when Lincoln Centre was scrapped. I’m also a Carnival shareholder and will not be voting for the current CEO to be reinstated at the next general meeting as a result of this decision. This was purely a cost cutting decision however they could have easily monetized the Lincoln Center by offering the purchase of a glass of champagne as an entry requirement for each performance. Hopefully the next CEO will reinstate the classical music.

A ship that big and only 3/8” thick😮 I woulda bounced too

Typical... Maintain the highest levels of profit and screw the crew. A stupid Captain was simply icing on the cake.

Well I was just about to go into work early, but i think I will eminate that captain and just not. I went into work, but was this before rule 6 existed? I have been qualified for a good long time, i dont understand why the other ship didnt stay with struck vessel. So many errors led to this incident and so many bad decisions.

It's seriously a mystery to you why getting on a ship exactly like the one that sank under him, would be too much for Fleming?

There is a typo in your description. You have 1956 and I think you meant 1965. Sorry! Great video ~ :)

Install new upgraded boiler, ignore the thinning hull... Sounds like one of my many vehicle projects. Meh... I might weld a gusset plate here and there for good measure.

This is awful. It seems that so many of these ships succumbed either to weather, or accidents with other ships on The Great Lakes. I can't begin to know how horrible with was to her crews, especially when they died as a result.

Topdalsfjord is a funny name for a ship, as the top of a valley fjord is a peculiar concept tbh ("dal" means valley in both Danish and Norwegian. Idk about Swedish tho.)

He deserved prison. Horrible choices made by the Captain.

It's a creepy shipwreck, that's for sure

Big ass boats

God bless our sailors on the water and our truckers the roads. Keep them safe, please.

@mikeerickson4750

17 күн бұрын

First off, "God" is is a fairytale... And second, if he did exist, if he was as righteous a his cult followers say... Wouldn't he want to just "bless" everyone?

@zovaynezovanyari5442

16 күн бұрын

@@mikeerickson4750 I feel sorry for you. I wonder how it would be to think of one's self as an accident of nature. That this entire universe is just an oopsie. I'll pray for you.