I think the big thing about Tergrid (and apologies if I missed this getting mentioned), is that even if Tergrid gets killed so often she can no longer be cast, the Tergrid deck is still a pile of discard and sac effects, and the Tergrid player isn't just going to sit there not casting those spells.

@MTGGoldfish

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, this makes sense. Even without Tergrid on the battlefield a Tergrid deck has a lot of cards that some players won't enjoy playing against.

@iaingunn5559

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I have a tergrid deck that is almost cedh level and basically turns 1 or 2 is u prevent your opponents from playing the game with sac and discard and then 3 or 4 is tergrid plus a big swing like memory jar or fart cloud. It is definitely a commander not meant for low level games but if u have the rule zero talk about power level it has never felt op compared to my other friends decks at that level.

@iaingunn5559

Жыл бұрын

Also tergrid isn't just oh I stole everything I win. You have a bunch of random pieces that you need to combo together to figure out the win. It is a completely different experience everytime I play the deck which I really enjoy. Honestly I have never have had an easy win bc sometimes I had to fight tooth and nail bc if I have her on the board it is a 3 v 1 everytime which is always hard.

@seanedgar164

7 ай бұрын

Absolutely, like yes she auto-steals your opponents creatures with grave pact. Worst case you can still control the board

25:09 Hear hear!! Interaction and back-and-forth is the heart of the game. Even if it’s not *great* interaction, if it’s *interesting* interaction, the game wins. The trick is to keep it interesting. A good (non-c)EDH game should be like a dance or like an exciting, or at least funny, story.

@Alikaoz

Жыл бұрын

And cEDH ones are often like anime slugfests. Back and forth cardboard slinging is the best part of the game.

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. People play Shooter video games for the action, the combat, and the ability to feel that your actions and your decision making gave you a distinct advantage. Magic is the same thing to tabletop gamers, it just doesn't require you to aim with a stupid joystick. Nothing beats the rush of quietly letting your opponent pop off and then countering their game-winning spell at the last minute.

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

@@ethanglaeser9239 Eh. I think Magic is MORE than just interaction.

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

It can still be interesting, without shutting down many ways of playing the game. The same can be said for players that feel they need to use Norn to stop other players. Couldn't they have simply used from-hand interaction to stop the greedy player, without stopping an essential aspect (ETB for permanents) for all players? This is why I do not like Praetors for the balance of EDH. I know it is a vast format existing in a chaotic pool of possibility. But there are ways to make sure everyone can play many things, answer some things, and not feel locked out at the same time.

@w.s6124

9 ай бұрын

Its the same for cedh. You dont play cedh for the turn 2 wins even tho they are insanely satisfying to pull of. You play it for the slugfests and back and forth interaction...

I like the new webcam frames. It's a lot sleeker than what was being used before.

LRR already cornered the "magic creators rating Bond Intro Songs" market 😉

@amunra13

Жыл бұрын

And then "Kill James Bond" came out. High key recommend that one too

Seth and Phil’s eyes when Tomar’s talking about the guy who pushed Dockside, made me have to watch that reaction again lmao

@notsm

Жыл бұрын

Yes. 1:25:13 for all who missed it.

@_claymore

Жыл бұрын

& Seth's "did he get fired.. for printing Dockside?"

I like how after all this Elesh Norn hasn't ruined the format and still isn't banned. So much for the rules committee knowing what's best for the format

The spells like Fierce Guardianship shouldn't have been free if your commander is out, they should be discounted for the highest mana value commander you have out. So like a 6 mana counter spell that is discounted down, which would encourage higher mana value commanders.

@darthsnarf

Жыл бұрын

seems like a good idea.

@Tvboy777

Жыл бұрын

So basically unplayable for any Commander that costs 4 mana or less (bad Negate)?

@DiabloTommaso

Жыл бұрын

Good idea on papaer but this idea makes free spell useless. You will always use them in low cmc decks. Free spell shuldn t exist imo

@Minervastouch

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, it should of had a very high base mana cost encouraging higher cmc to gain the benefit from or at least make casting the card painful without the discount.

@ryantomczak2248

Жыл бұрын

So you don’t like Memnite, Ornithopter, or the multitude of other zero mana artifacts?

Elish Norn can definitely die to removal... But all my removal in my ETB thened decks are themselves ETBs.

@k9commander

Жыл бұрын

Even if you add 2/3 removal spells for Norn, you still have to draw them. I'm guessing most of your draws are etb based as well.

@kingofrunes5291

Жыл бұрын

Maybe it's just me, but this is exactly why I try to diversify my "answers" in decks. Synergie is fun and important, but you need some variance in your interaction, so your deck can run smooth.

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

@@kingofrunes5291 yea but with all the pieces being printed who need generic answers that i need to shove in when am i just giving up on my theme

@TheSpiritombsableye

11 ай бұрын

That sounds like a deck building error.

Crim struggling to read a green card is so accurate of him

The only issue I have with Elesh Norn is the cost being too easy to splash. Make it 2WWW and force people to really mean it if they want to play her.

@Minervastouch

Жыл бұрын

Yea i think when people say "X color really needs Y" those cards should be heavily invested in the color, not easily splash able in any X white/red whatever decks. So the good white card draw effects should be ATLEAST double white if not triple. Smothering tithe: 3 white 1 colorless. Because what people really want IS dumb OP staples that in mulitcolor decks.

@pixelbomb97

Жыл бұрын

Honestly I think she's only 4W because they needed the room for her name.

One that I'm surprised didn't come up was Void Mirror. Everyone was so sure that card would destroy everything and at this point I don't think I've seen anyone ever play it.

@natejablonski

Жыл бұрын

There was complaining, but it was mostly Modern Tron & Cascade players with a few Legacy players thrown in. I didn't hear a peep from Commander players.

@bladetb3934

Жыл бұрын

I feel like most hate pieces that are good get a huge hoopla when they come out but from what I've noticed is most players don't like playing hate pieces. The ones who do like to tend to play them all. Low key, you should try it against an eldrazi player and watch them cry.

@redearth3234

Жыл бұрын

@@bladetb3934 I run it in my monowhite deck to stop free spells; I can confirm the one time I went up against eldrazi it absolutely wrecked them

Something funny about the mind goblin, the sticker sheet with mine has the power toughnesses 4/2 and 6/9

@fosterdawson7339

Жыл бұрын

I think its funny because its been seeing some play in eternal formats bc there's enough sticker sheets to where it's always mana positive, and sometimes better than seething song

Sheldon complaining about Elesh Norn: Old man yells at mom.

I feel like Opposition Agent is so easy to remove that it's not that problematic. It's also punishing the thing that people seem to hate about commander, which is running too many tutors.

@oelboy

Жыл бұрын

People aren't against tutors, they are against other people tutoring... 🤣 I like playing "fair" stax. Confounding Conundrum; Aven Mindcensor; Lavinia, Azorius Renegade etc. And all the people who usually complain about other people ramping and tutoringing all of the sudden pick me as archenemy just because they can't jam their big 8 mana Timmy threat on turn 5.

@EdBurke37

Жыл бұрын

It should've been white and had more than one colored pip but otherwise it's fine

@casteanpreswyn7528

Жыл бұрын

@oelboy I hate tutors in commander, don't run any in my decks unless they are thematically relevant. Like, for my Garth the Zookeeper deck if there were tutors that reference zoos I'd run them, but there aren't so I don't. Or for my Spirit of the Night 1 creature deck, if there was a tutor that said, "as long as you control only 1 creature) I'd run it but it doesn't exist so I don't. Hell, even in my almost-cEDH Hinata deck I don't run tutors. If someone complains about tutors and then gets mad when their's is shut down, they're just assholes you shouldn't play with cause fuck hypocrites.

@zacharyroach4957

Жыл бұрын

@@EdBurke37 Eh it being in black is fine to me, black also hates out library searching and the effect is similar to Praetor's Grasp.

@Bongus_Bubogus

Жыл бұрын

@@EdBurke37 Yes, the *DIMIR SPY* should be white. Not blue/black.

I think that the uproar against new Norn came from JLK's deck on Game Knights, like people were aware of the power level, but (at least for me) the prision aspect of all the etb exile effects in white was missed, and that deck was nothing but O Rings. I don't think that it should be banned tho. On Jeweled Lotus, I think that it's bad as a design and mid as a card. The strategies that are made better with it are already so much better than everything else

@domthompson7992

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that deck was sooo oppressive. Not sure if it's OP cos it's still just a creature. But I certainly didn't expect it to do what it did. I was expecting a value deck, not a control deck

As a phage player, yes please put a torpor orb on your side of the battle field :)

@dariocampanella7992

Жыл бұрын

Oh flip ididnt realize torpor would shut her

I think the biggest problem with Elesh Norn is the cost. Not that it's 5 mana, but that it's only a single coloured mana. Every single one of them costs double coloured mana: Ebon Praetor: 4BB (from Fallen Empires, not a Phyrexian Praetor) Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: 5WW Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor: 1BB Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur: 8UU Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant: 5UU Sanguine Praetor: 6BB (from Guildpact, not a Phyrexian Praetor) Sheoldred, the Apocalypse: 2BB Sheoldred, Whispering One: 5BB Urabrask the Hidden: 3RR Urabrask, Heretic Praetor: 3RR Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider: 4GG Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger: 6GG This makes Elesh Norn far easier to cast in multicoloured decks in all formats than any other roughly similar CMC praetor, which to my mind is the biggest problem. You can splash to get Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.

@enmanuelrondon9700

Жыл бұрын

A second white pip wouldn't stop anyone from including it, imo.

@MrMartinSchou

Жыл бұрын

​@@enmanuelrondon9700 True, but you can cast her far more reliably. Double coloured mana cards are more difficult to get the mana for, because you only need that ONE land of the correct colour. If you're playing Simic, splashing that one extra land to get Elesh Norn is easy. Hell, you might not even need it if you're playing mana dorks. Somberwald Sage, Birds of Paradise, Sylvan Caryatid, Noble Hierarch and so on. Yes, those can be used for any other colour commander, but you need two of them on the table to play Sheoldred or Urubrask in Simic. That what I mean when I say you can splash Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.

While I agree that Commander players need to run more interaction playing "more removal" also leads to playing more staples, more effective and efficient cards which does least to decks looking more similar.

@jamesgratz4771

Жыл бұрын

That already happens

@EdBurke37

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesgratz4771 yeah, I know. My point is that cards like New Norn, who I think is still fine, push thematic decks even further to running non-thematic removal. It's not something that should lead to cards being banned but it is something to consider when people talk about a card having a "homogenizing effect".

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Does removal count as interaction? Isn't it very specifically a way to AVOID having to interact? To my mind, the spells you cast mattering is interaction, while removal just means that spell doesn't matter. When I think of interaction, I think of sequences of events that play out between players because of what's on the table. I see your board, and instead of making the value play, I play a card that is a better matchup against your board state even if it might not optimally tap out my mana. Drop Bloodthirsty Aerialist because of your 2/2 flyer even though I could have cast a 5 drop instead. That's interaction. My choices are affected by the gamestate. Whereas heavy removal decks tend to avoid changing their gameplan according to the game state. I'll play what I'm going to play because I can just get rid of anything my opponent would do that I don't like anyway. I don't have to worry about how my plays interact with the board, because my removal prevents it from mattering.

That was my first listen. Great podcast; thanks a lot!!!

I think the reason Sheldon is worried about elesh norn is people will play it for the panharmonicon ability and won’t be thinking about the Stax effect that stops a lot of cards in decks and people might not want to play against that and normally wouldn’t because people don’t play those Stax pieces

Tbh I think Phil's takes about not wanting to run ways to deal with Torpor Orb effects is exactly what the others were talking about. I personally dont have much fun when my opponent pops off with busted mana acceleration and card draw and blink effects turn 4 and draws their whole deck with chulane or whatever. So I think its fair for me to run some pieces that shut down those effects. They can be removed if you didnt build your deck super greedily. I guess Phil's take to me sounds like "I dont want to have to consider what other players are doing" and idk, if thats the ideal attitude then why should I care if other people are affected by Elesh Norn? Everyone should be working together to have a fun experience in commander, and that means realizing that if you build your deck such that when it "does its thing" you auto win, maybe you cant complain when people interact with you on that axis. Just some thoughts.

@Dunhilina

Жыл бұрын

Being forced into playing usually more efficient and powerful removal just sounds like it forces more "auto-include" situations. You don't usually run a card like Fiend Hunter in a generic Wx deck, but you can potentially squeeze extra value out of it in a blink deck so you might run it over a generic removal card like Swords to Plowshares. If something like the new Norn is crazy popular then that deck can no longer rely on Fiend Hunter and has to go down the generic creature removal StP/PtE path. I don't think the new Norn is crazy powerful or anything, it is just something to think about.

@BrewersKitchen

Жыл бұрын

Oh I do run catch all answers in my deck, I just try to make them fit the theme. If my Lonis deck can’t counter the Norn, I can Commit // Memory it, but it also synergizes with Lonis’s ability (in this case I could steal the Norn for myself if I sacrifice 7 clues). In some decks I run generic removal like Beast Within, but it always feels better/is more fun if it fits the deck’s gameplan. I wouldn’t want to start every deck with a removal/interaction kit of the same cards. Again, not advocating for banning Elesh Norn, she’s just another must remove threat

@LadyMorrigan

Жыл бұрын

@@BrewersKitchen Yeah I get that, I just follow the philosophy that if your deck is super weak to torpor orb maybe you should have ways to remove it that dont also fold to torpor orb 😅. Im not entirely unbiased myself lol as an avowed torpor orb enjoyer. Big fan btw, no hate.

@vavakxnonexus

Жыл бұрын

@@BrewersKitchen Definitely share that feeling - I built a janky Karona vows/curses deck, and getting to play all the niche and bizarre enchantment-based removal was a cornerstone of what made the deckbuilding fun. Maybe what we really need is a Trinisphere in a super-yolked body, like a 3/4 with flying and lifelink and ward {2}. We need to hate on cheap removal staples!

@fosterdawson7339

Жыл бұрын

@@vavakxnonexus 6 mana trinisphere commander would be fine probably? maybe make it 5c pip wise so you have to invest for it too

I think a lot of people have these feelings because they entered magic through commander. If you come from 1v1, interaction is a huge part of the game.

@casteanpreswyn7528

Жыл бұрын

I started in 1v1 back in 97, still hate the new Elesh Norn. It's a strictly better version of Yarok.

@davidarmstrong3964

Жыл бұрын

@@casteanpreswyn7528 it’s only in one color which I would think wouldn’t make it better than Yarok. I think we’ll see it in the 99 a lot but not as much as a commander once people see how un-fun it is.

@casteanpreswyn7528

Жыл бұрын

@David Armstrong as a commander it's really strong but most pods run enough removal to deal with it so it costs 17. In the 99, it's literally a must run if you have white. As a commander it's ridiculously strong, in the 99 it's the best card in your deck. Also, it's the same cmc, better body, better effect, and has fewer color pips compared to Yarok. It's a straight upgrade.

@shayneweyker

Жыл бұрын

I think it's because the amount of time you spend not affecting the game once you've had your main engine or ability to play spells disabled is much longer in 4 player pods vs. 1 on 1 matches.

@surfinggarchomp2820

Жыл бұрын

@@casteanpreswyn7528 deathtouch is pretty good

Like crim said jeweled lotus dominates in cedh. That alone should tell you how powerful it is.

My two cents on Opposition Agent are that it should say something akin to "If a nonland source would cause an opponent to search." That way, it stops tutor spells, but still allows people to fetch.

@jordangroblewsky2087

Жыл бұрын

"If a spell or ability from m a non-land source would cause an opponent to search their library,..."

Elesh norn is definitely not bannable, but it is accidentally pretty oppressive. People will run it as another copy of panharmonicon, however, it shuts off a lot of cards and even decks. As long as people realize it can be oppressive, interaction and/or pregame convos should manage to keep the play experience fun.

@alexscott8799

Жыл бұрын

If it gets popular I'm going to run lotus field and bounce lands and laugh

@alexscott8799

Жыл бұрын

If it gets popular I'm going to run lotus field and bounce lands and laugh

@DarthChocolate15

Жыл бұрын

And this is one of the points Sheldon tried to make (whether or not you agree with him) that distinguishes Norn from Opposition Agent. When you play Opposition Agent, you're trying to play a powerful hate piece. On the other hand, more casual players will run Norn as a Panharmonicon type effect/commander, and happen to also have a powerful hate piece that may not fit their group's typically expectations. I can understand his concern, even if I don't agree with him about the level of problem it's likely to create.

@Spirited_skiing

Жыл бұрын

@@DarthChocolate15 100% agree

@surfinggarchomp2820

Жыл бұрын

@@DarthChocolate15 I play opposition because I want to "get" people

I really don't see Elesh Norn being a big issue. I agree that it is pushed too far in terms of general efficiency. It's a 5 mana 4/7 creature with vigilance, that is also a stax piece. This is similar to cards like new Shoeldred, which are threats both in their abilities and in their strength as a creature. I don't like cards being designed this way, but I still don't see Elesh Norn breaking anything. It's going to be annoying for sure, but it's no harder to kill than any other annoying card, and having it as a commander limits you to a single color. While I agree with some of the "generically good" concerns that the article they referenced discussed, I also have to mention that it seems confusing to say that about Elesh Norn, but not other cards. A rules committee member wants to ban Elesh Norn for being a generically good white creature, but we still have Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault in the format? Sol Ring reduces the deck size in every deck, and introduces much more sameness than Elesh Norn would...

@atk9989

Жыл бұрын

i have a few decks that don't run Sol Ring because it's not needed, i have all of 4 decks out of 46 that run Mana Crypt, and 2 of them are cEDH, the others are Chulane and Mono White angles because they need it and the life loss doesn't matter, and Mana Vault is only in my cEDH decks. Those cards aren't must haves, you just decide that you have to play them. And the Sol Ring auto include so reduces the deck size argument is so ridiculous anyway. In a commander deck you run 40-50 lands/ramp/rocks right? do you complain that the battle bond lands are auto includes? how about shock lands? oh and the OG duals are must haves because your deck is strictly worse without them if you're not a mono deck. what about mono black decks Cabal Coffers is an auto include should be banned then.

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

@@atk9989 I didn't say that format staples are a problem, I only said that that argument applies to cards like Sol Ring much more than they apply to cards like new Elesh Norn. Therefore, if they want to ban Elesh Norn for those reasons, there are a number of other cards that must go as well. For the record, I would be content with either outcome. Ban more, or ban less, don't do nothing.

@Spaced92

Жыл бұрын

I just don't like that it is designed to be a commander staple. If you think about the importance of the card in the lore, for the set, so on it's actually quite a boring effect. Those mana rocks are just incidentally too much value for commander, they don't bore me because while they are auto-includes, it's an incidental occurrence and cheap stuff that makes mana SHOULD be boring.

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

@@Spaced92 I agree on the "designed for Cmmander" issue. Some of the legendary creatures they print are really cool for Commander, but they make too many of them too good in Commander for no reason.

@AngoDecay

Жыл бұрын

Ofc it wont be a problem its a expensive creature that dies to any removal or boardwipe. If the rc should decide to ban it the whole magic community should stop following them.

Tergrid is so wild. Still baffles me to this day 😂

Crim is the only person who knew from the beginning that Opposition Agent is a good thing for the format and there should be MORE Opposition Agent effects

@HeyHeyHeyJoJoJo

Жыл бұрын

they should print more of those, but i would like to see: "if an opponent searches his/her library for a non basic card, then...." It feels mean to hose people for playing evolving wilds or terramorphic expanse.

@KykyJyky

Жыл бұрын

@@HeyHeyHeyJoJoJo that's not a bad design 👍

@nik700

Жыл бұрын

Nah, if tutors are such a problem, then a person being the only one being able to tutor (and profiting from other people's tutors) is not a good answer. I think that if it was either you control your opponent or you get the card they tutor for it would still be a good card. As it is, it's too much. I would love more answers against tutors tho

@TheRedGauntlet

Жыл бұрын

Same Crim that thought Hullbreacher was fine...

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

@@nik700 This. There should be more counterplay to tutors, I agree, but Opposition Agent isn’t that. It just changes who the person tutoring is. It doesn’t actually fix any of the problems tutors bring. They don’t make the game any more fair or add any variance. There need to be more Aven Mindcensors and Leonin Arbiters, not more Opposition Agents.

I personally don’t think any specific cards need to be banned, but I don’t like how in recent times the cards are being printed that they simultaneously give you an advantage and do some the negatively effect your opponents at an efficient mana rate. I think the underlying issue is that cards are being printed where they are taking 3 cards and stapling them into one. I just stay away from playing cards like that, like the praetors

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

It's exactly what Yugioh did to make every deck into the aggro-control-combo nightmares they are. Every card does everything. MtG is starting along that same path.

Sheldon's take is wrong. Is MoM strong? Yeah. But it definitely is not an auto-include and we can't just ban every white stax card (rip iona).

I had a similar thing with the universes beyond cards. I think some have cool design, but aesthetically I typically prefer their magic version. I wasn't a huge fan of the street fighter cards even though the card effect design was interesting, but as soon as I saw their mtg version I fell in love with the Zethi.

I think Sheldon's issue with Elesh Norn is that to him Commander only works if people have empathy and don't play busted or unfun cards and elesh norn is an effect people want stapled to incidental hate that is the exact opposite of what people want.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

When you say it like that, it makes it sound like he's objectively correct.

Bounce lands are a really easy way to play around an opponents Elesh Norn

@fosterdawson7339

Жыл бұрын

"sure I'll play lotus field, oh I dont need to sac my lands what a shame"

A big weakness for Elesh Norn and the Praetors in general is that they don’t have any built in self-defense (except Progress Tyrant). They all die to removal so easily, despite typically having enormous mana costs

@sympathism

Жыл бұрын

The thing with elesh norn is that most of the time people slap their removal on etb effects, making it more difficult to remove. And if it isnt removed, norn will go nuts.

@bye1551

Жыл бұрын

@@sympathism exactly, just like Phil said, if you make your deck synergistically (running removal on creatures) then you just lose. You're punished for building your deck in the fun, some would say best, way.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@bye1551 If your deck isn't synergistic, can you really call it a deck? At that point isn't it just a pile of random paper?

Tomer please upload a solo video of you reviewing James Bond intro songs at some point during this year. Best case, wait for 5 or 6 months so people have absolutely no context for when you upload it

i was agnostic on elesh, but after the game knights episode, I understood the level of obnoxious suffering this could turn out to be. Each other preator that restricts opponents gives a bit of an out at least, elesh norn though just says nope. even a "once on their turn your opponents may ignor this effect." would've put it in a much better space imo

I agree with Crim that Jeweled Lotus is actually terrible in casual. In my group whoever plays this always ends up behind because their commander just gets immediately killed which puts them so far behind they never recast it.

This is a huge issue me and my friends have. We play decks with interaction and when we go to lgs or play on Spell table people whine and complain when we interact with thier deck

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Removal is not interaction, it's the opposite. It's you preventing interaction. If the spells being cast don't matter, that's non-interactive. And that's exactly what removal does, makes the spells being cast not matter.

oh man I'm so excited for this - this is a genius topic

Instead of free interaction i think that a design where they cost less if you have your commander would be better. Example. 3+blue mama counterspell that costs x less where x is the highest cmc of a commander on your field.

MoM is not a problem. Stacks are needed point blank period. We need hate pieces.

Great shirt and great band, phil!

The problem with printing "scary" cards, because scary is exciting, is that when you keep seeing those scary cards over and over again, they become frustrating. And when you expect there to be those frustrating cards, you become frustrated instead of being excited whenever you see one of those overpowered cards.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

There are different types of scary cards. Some scary is fine. Worldspine Wurm is scary in a totally fair way. It's not a problem, it's just a good spell when it comes up, which probably isn't often. Other cards are scary in the "I wanted to play a card game and now I don't get to" way. That's a problem.

Imo the problem isn't ONE Elesh Norn. It's Sheoldred last set, Elesh Norn this set and over time building up an arsenal of generically good insane value must remove cards that fits in every deck. Over time, decks will be more homogeneic if players don't intentionally steer away from them. Atleast that's my fear and I would argue Elesh Norn probably would go in basically all white decks. There is definitely enough ETBs in commander to warrant it. Even if you're not an ETB-deck, you probably have quite a few and there is a relevant chance your opponents do as well. Soon everyone is legendary tribal and then no one is.

Bootlegger's Stash was priced way higher than reason on release. I thought it would be pretty sweet but it has underperformed in anything not focused around artifacts/treasures/tokens that I've tried.

I feel like a lot of people will say Elesh Norn is fine when all their taplands come in untapped, 3 players at the table can't go off with Dockside, and a lot of other etbs that typically are negative. Elesh Norn isn't actually being thought in the context of being an opponent I think, because it just makes you change your playstyle and you can possible gain some incremental value.

So, I think Sheldon's big problem with Elesh Norn is if you bring Elesh Norn torpor orb tribal (and just ignore the first line of text). Sheldon would more than likely not have a deck that could interact with you meaningfully. Sheldon's decks and play styles are very dated, which is why it sounds like the sky is falling every time a new powerful card comes out. A similar article came out when Tergrid was first released, and the RC stated they had her on the short watch list.

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

she still is and a lot of people still want her banned

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I don't think it's unfair to say a 1 card combo that shuts off entire deck strategies is OP. Especially when the best way to counter the card is with ITSELF. If the most effective counterplay is a mirror match, you've made a mistake in game design.

I love playing Toxrill on turn 3 thank you Jeweled Lotus

Bootleggers stash for me, is an all-star in my Korvold deck. Especially in combination with academy manufactor and seedborn muse out…. Kuldotha forgemaster is a great way to tutor and get it out cheap

I don't understand comparing a feel bad stacks piece with a panharm effect that can be your commander and be recast many times to a sol ring...Its the feel bad part that matters, no one's deck gets trumped by a sol ring

@starmanda88

Жыл бұрын

I’m so sick of the feels bad argument. If a piece of cardboard ruins your night and you can’t shake off a loss and play another game, sorry but that’s on you. I’m trying to win a game. (Obligatory statement: I would never play a deck that totally outclasses the table. But if we all agree to play at whatever power level, as long as I’ve kept to that, I don’t want to hear it.)

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@starmanda88 Would you be mad if one of the players in your 4 player game scooped the moment they saw the card hit the table? If so, aren't you being a bit unreasonable here? You can't exactly say "just shake off the loss and play another game" if you then expect them to play through a game that they do not get to participate in. It's not "feels bad". It's "I decided you were not allowed to play with us". It's one thing to play and lose. It's entirely another to not get to play despite wanting to.

The key difference between Oppo Agent and Hullbreacher/Norn is that it does its thing and then that's mostly it. It continues to block your opponents, but won't advance your own game plan. You can avoid casting tutors to play around it. You can't play around your opponent turning Windfall into Double Recall + Mindslicer + Dockside. You can't play around your opponent casting their own Portal to Phyrexia.

I’ve been playing tergrid since day one the card reads alot stronger then it is most games end with tergrid costing 10+ mana

@alkhemia23

Жыл бұрын

I mean yeah it a kill that player and commander on sight card that not really a good thing tho if someone has a Tergrid deck at the table I probally just kill them first no question asked

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Tergrid seems a lot more dangerous in the 99 than as commander, because all of the good discard and sacrifice effects are multicolor.

Crim is the contrarian that keeps me coming back.

I don't think that the new Elesh Norn is a problem purely because of how powerful it is, but rather because it has powerful effect that is fun to play stapled onto a powerful effect that isn't fun to play against. Individually, both halves of the card are fine, but when you put them together, you get an extremely powerful card that I expect people to play purely for the Panharmonicon effect without considering the negative effect that the Torpor Orb ability has on the experience of the rest of the table

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Most of the old praetors have the exact same problem. They have pretty cool abilities for you that are also attached to unbearably oppressive effects for your opponents. Except Urabrask, it seems that WotC just hates Urabrask. Or wants us to like Urabrask I guess. He never did nothin to nobody. He's a good noodle. At least the new Sheoldred is fair. You can break him, but at that point he's not the problem, you are. I still don't really understand how the old praetors made it past playtesting. The new batch is toned down at least... except for Elesh Norn who is somehow even more oppressive than her original form.

@ianlide1507

Жыл бұрын

@@dontmisunderstand6041 The old Praetors were made before Commander was widely played, so them making it past playtesting makes a lot more sense. Most of them just existed to serve as expensive game enders for 1v1 formats. I'm really not sure who decided that much cheaper versions of that same formula were a good idea in a world dominated by a casual multiplayer format

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

@@ianlide1507 I started playing in 2011 and took a in the middle of the khans block, and I think I'd played something like 5 total 1v1 games? None of them in an official format, just casual kitchen table magic using any cards we had that the playgroup hadn't quietly agreed not to use because they aren't fun. One of our players ran a reanimator deck that would semi-regularly bust out a turn 1 sheoldred, until they stopped playing the deck at all because it was no fun for anybody at the table, including them. It's just not fun to win a 4 player game on turn 5 solely because you were the only player allowed to do anything. And it's certainly not fun to be the players not allowed to do anything. I guess my point is, the old praetors were unbelievable BS even on release, outside of commander. Definitely agree that it's very silly to try and push "don't play the game" attached to cards as if it's a thing we should want to be putting in our decks.

Another thing about universes beyond is what happens with reprints when the contracts run out mtgo already cant add them in individually due to contract shit so can they be reskinned individually or do you need to buy the whole deck again

I also agree with Crim on the fact that Magic needs "No Cards". I am a proponent for mass land destruction in commander, because I think it is important to have the tools to fight your opponents' strategies. Stax can be unfun, but a game with no board wipes, land destruction, and counterspells wouldn't be fun either. Magic isn't fun because you get to play fantasy solitaire. Magic is fun because of the back and forth between you and your opponents; the strategy, tactics, and problem solving. You don't have that if you don't have "No Cards".

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

i love a good back and forth especially a counter war but for the majority of players no they want fantasy solitaire until one person does something big and dumb that wins that game after a while but not too long then shuffle up to play again in the maybe 1-2 nights a month they may be free to get to the lgs or playgroup

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

@@donb7519 In all fairness to those people, and acknowledging the fact that people are different and that's completely acceptable, I would claim that if you want fantasy solitaire, multiplayer card games are not a good way to fulfill your desire. Multiplayer games are designed to be interactive, single player games are not. Fantasy solitaire is best found in places like fantasy rpg video games, or maybe variants of Dungeons and Dragons. If Magic was not interactive, nobody would enjoy it, even the solitaire players.

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

@@ethanglaeser9239 i mean to them being interactive is using beast within or a simic charm not a 3 card deep stack

If new Elesh Norn is more than 5% of decks on EDHRec in 8 months, I’ll eat everyone’s shoes.

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

Get your BBQ sauce ready...

@josephwodarczyk977

11 ай бұрын

It's in almost exactly 5% of decks right now. I think one shoelace would be fair.

@Bongus_Bubogus

11 ай бұрын

@@josephwodarczyk977 Man you missed the “more than” and “8 months” clause huh.

Soon the new Elesh came out I was a bit disappointed in what it did but everyone around me seem to think that it was broken. So for a whole week whenever I played Commander I did an experiment where I counted how many ETB triggers even happened during a game. Outside of a dedicated ETB deck it happened maybe four or five times a game. So when Sheldon and the rest of the community complain about how negatively this will affect the format, considered how many ETB triggers even happened in your average game. If anything it shut off more threats like dockside then shutdown a player's ability to play

31:46 yessss, i thought farewell was way too strong and no one else thought so, i thought i was crazy

Personally as a fan in the wonderful jank that is the generation one transformers cartoon, I love that the cards are hideous. It's so fitting

1:10:00 that's what I've always been saying! Thanks Seth :)

I would absolutely watch you rank the Bond intros

I'm still fresh into this one, but banning the new Elesh Norn on the reasoning of "its too generically good" is absolutely ridiculous. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Dockside, Mana Vault, Cyc Rift, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and SO MANY MORE cards are "auto includes" in this format.... it's a ridiculous reason, it would continue to propagate this notion that the RC/whoever bans cards willy nilly with no consistency (which is true) and we continue to go round in circles...

@Hashbrown1682

Жыл бұрын

Wasn't that the reasoning on golos?

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I suppose the primary difference between those and Elesh Norn is that those staples promote gameplay while Elesh Norn stifles it. "You play the game better" vs "Your opponents don't play the game at all". To be honest, the idea of a staple COMMANDER card sounds like something a playgroup probably just agrees not to use because it creates less interesting games, yeah? Why bother with a singleton format if you want your deck to play the same way every time?

I’ve recently been increasing my removal in all my decks, up from like 10 to 15 spells (including 2-3 wipes). Norn is just the newest must remove threat, there are so many of them now she’s just a drop in the bucket

@bodaciouschad

Жыл бұрын

We need more instant speed removal and stack interaction from permanents so permanent tribal muldrotha can upgrade from lilting refrain and daring apprentice and lunar opposition and seal of doom to some cards that are worth playing in your deck.

@TheSpunYarn

Жыл бұрын

Out of curiosity, how often do you have games where you're stuck drawing more removal than gas? Do the decks just wind up feeling like control at a certain threshold?

@atk9989

Жыл бұрын

that is actually just ridiculous, all your decks are nearly just removal tribal then, a tribal deck is generally 20+ cards of a tribe. some people only put 12 and call it a tribal deck.(CGB)

@mfitkin

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSpunYarn it’s rare that I end up with a removal spell that I don’t want in my hand. The trick is to play synergistic removal like removal on an ETB creature, one sided board wipes, 2-for-1 removal, removal that replaces itself or is repeatable, etc. But I will also play generous gift, beast within, chaos warp, and the other affordable staples to make sure I can answer the big threat at instant speed towards the end of the game. Honestly none of my decks feel like control and are mostly creature decks.

@TheSpunYarn

Жыл бұрын

@mfitkin Interesting. I have a creature deck in Esper that packs a lot of interaction - most of which is on theme - but even then sometimes I feel stuck with just removal and too few critters. You've probably just got a better ratio than me!

If Elesh Norn does become a staple, hopefully the bounce lands become more prominent again.

@nickhannah7234

Жыл бұрын

I’ll pass.

Universes Beyond is part of a larger problem in media right now. Right now there is a big emphasis on "oh remember that other thing you like" and there is no substance behind that. We see this in other IP's as well where there are a lot of crossovers. I really hate it and wish Wizards just focused on their own IP

I absolutely loved Phil's reaction to the CAG: "Who is the CAG?" and "Who are these people???" To this day I have no idea what the purpose is of the CAG, even though I really like many members of it. Like, what do they actually DO???

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

Theyre supposed to know the community better than the rc since they are a lot of content creators with their own communities and as such can supposedly advise the rc how the wider community feels

@lukevorwald7727

Жыл бұрын

@@donb7519 that just seems so odd to me. Again, I like those people a lot, but I still have a bit of a sour taste in my mouth with the notion that content creators have sway over how Commander looks solely because they have a high following. Also, doesnt the RC have the same access to Twitter and Reddit? I'm probably just hyperfocusing on this, but the CAG just seems so unnecessary and redundant

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

@@lukevorwald7727 i mean one they have way less power than you seem to think they basically just say what they see in their communities over time and how they feel rather than looking at knee jerk first responses on twitter they dont even get votes

Modern era commander is they want their cake and to eat it to. Lord forbid people not just play solitaire with each other

Duran Duran's A View to a Kill is my favorite Bond intro. The movie itself was pretty meh for a bond film though.

Sol ring is one card that comes in every deck so everyone has them also they printed it 30 years ago so it’s not like they just made it for the format like elesh norn

I want the James Bond theme song tier list, BUT you have to choose one that fits Bolas, Elesh Norn and Urza.

The longer I look at opposition agent, the less threatening it seems.

Elesh norn is definitely an auto include in any white deck. Panharmonicon, torpor orb and a fat ass all on a (relatively) cheap cmc card is nutty

@Level_1_Frog

Жыл бұрын

I don't think so. How am I supposed to make room for it in my budget 5 colour spirit tribal deck?

@mechazard9883

Жыл бұрын

Proxies

@Level_1_Frog

Жыл бұрын

@@mechazard9883 ah now having a proxied expensive card in a budget deck completely defeats the purpose of setting a budget in the first place xD

@oelboy

Жыл бұрын

Elesh is far from an auto-include. I wouldn't even think about including her unless there are at least a dozen etb effects in the deck. There is so much "generic good stuff" in white to include which does way more for you. Grand Abolisher for example. If you insist on staxing etb decks there are also cheaper options mana-wise.

Tomer's compleation is near. His transformation into the Hero we need is at hand.

Phil is 100% correct. Elesh Mom should have had the double White pip like every other Praetor.

Bootleggers stash is also fun with Jinnie Fay

I was just sing "Skyfall" today too. Weird. 😂

Regarding Tergrid, I have seen it once or twice in the 99 and it is MIS ER A BLE to play against. I think most people recognize that and don't want to be that guy, and they don't play it. Or it's a situation where the deck does what it does and it's just not the most fun because you just kinda win. Also Braids in the 99 would be rough because it would just go in Tergrid, so you're not really losing anything.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Crim, the control player who doesn't want anything banned in commander, said the control commander should be banned in commander. That's probably a good sign it's problematic. I usually just scoop the moment the first discard effect drops in a match. I have a finite amount of time on this earth, and I'm not going to waste it with someone who doesn't respect that time. Same with land destruction. No salt, just not what I'm in for. I play fairly medium power midrange decks almost exclusively. If your aggro deck stomps me before I play my first spell, fine. If your control deck removes literally every spell I cast in a game, fine. But if I mulligan to 5 and you make me discard 3 between your 1st and 2nd turn, you're just a bad person. Nothing to do with gameplay, your morals are out of whack as a human being. And I don't really have time to indulge you in that. Resource denial is not ok. At least wait until I cast a spell to get rid of it. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

Elesh Norn both improves oppsoing bouncelands and makes yours awful - unplayable trash card. There's a reason random games on MTGO say "No Tergrid" so often. It's weird that they took an effect that had only been at 12 as a creature, and 7 as an enchantment, and decided to print it at 5, make it a possible commander, _and_ make it a strictly better version of the effect. Oh and there's also a back side that can kill the table with any infinite mana combo.

@fosterdawson7339

Жыл бұрын

wait whats the 12 mana creature???

@RyanEglitis

Жыл бұрын

@@fosterdawson7339 It That Betrays

I would genuinely love a James Bond Theme Song Tier List. Patreon bonus ep?

I'm so glad there are people like crim that do push back against not interacting in commander. I see people complain that someone's deck is too powerful, but then also refuse to play a single board wipe in their deck

@VivBrodock

Жыл бұрын

The dumbest shit to me is content creators who are like "these strategies are to strong" and then hit back with the "wraths are toxic in commander"

@adamfiliatreault3393

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, they're called spikes who want to laugh fun, casual decks off of the table. Crim is the antithesis of fun, casual Commander

@VivBrodock

Жыл бұрын

@@adamfiliatreault3393 it's really not someone else's fault if you built a deck that can't handle removal.

@adamfiliatreault3393

Жыл бұрын

@@VivBrodock nope, but spikes want to fill their decks with removal and cEDH cards, and casuals don't want to have to put in all the expensive zero mana counters and removal

@bye1551

Жыл бұрын

@@VivBrodock it's not everyone else's fault when no one wants to play with you cause your decks aren't fun to play against. People who demand the format change to be "more balanced" ignore that this is the fun social format. Sure, cry about how no one likes removal... But only people who think like you will play with you, in which case everyone gets what they want. You get to play in a miserable game where no one sticks or does anything, everyone else gets to have fun without you.

Go watch the Professor's interview with Sheldon... the dude LOVES Sol Ring. That alone should probably help clarify his decision making process 😂

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

I mean... playing the game = good and not playing the game = bad. That seems like solid decision making to me.

Phil has good takes. All he's really saying is "I play Commander as if it's a format", and phrasing it within the context of the specific topic over and over again.

I've got so much respect for Phil. I'm also a person who is like "I'm not gonna cut all the cards I like just to run the unfun but efficient removal." We might get locked out every game, but we get locked out with honor 🤜🤛

@steven3814

Жыл бұрын

That's a really bad take for him and I lost respect for him when he said that. I started taking his opinions less seriously. It screams "you can't play things that stop me from having fun and I'm not gonna change anything about"

@dannyisjesus

Жыл бұрын

@@steven3814 But... He doesn't say "you can't play things that stop me from having fun." He specifically LET'S people play things that stop him, and he still plays and has fun with his friends. He never throws games on purpose and doesn't really complain outside of maybe one or two "Aw geeze, come on man" comments in a game. So you're just wrong about that 🤷‍♂️

Bootlegger's Stash is still strong as hell. Marionette Master immediately kills the table and fireweaver is close to it. In the golgari squirrel commander they can perma-kill all creatures.

Opposition Agent would be more bearable if it had the flash and control effects or the final effect. Having both makes it a nightmare.

I run Opp Agent in my Prosper and I pulled the Maralen of the Mornsong because A: it's rare to actually get the combo because they're 2 of 99 obvi, and two when you do it's easily broken especially if your play group knows you run them and they can anticipate it.

@DCII

Жыл бұрын

And Opp Agent is bad if you're sitting at a low power table where nobody is going to be searching.

You joke about a Darth Vader card, but I'd snap buy that secret lair.

The difference between one off interaction and continuous is wether or not it can fully lock someone out of the game talking about one person popping off and winning cuz of no interaction seems redundant when cards that do thing like this can have the exact same effect on certain archetypes more constantly

For universes beyond. I am fine with it, as long as we get magic version's of those cards. If not..... Bad feeling.

Tergrid is kill on sight in my opinion. The deck is only mildly annoying without Tergrid since discarding cards isn’t fun, but keeping Tergrid off the battlefield is always my top priority.

I mean to be fair Wizards is doing a good job of making their skies fall with their shitty practices (not just here but recently in DnD). I don't think a few broken/annoying cards come anywhere near close to the goodwill/trust damage they've done as of late.

I think the land destroying sentiment is wildly misrepresented and done so often by content creators. Mass land destruction is frowned upon. Yes. I believe many people share the view of it being a tactic that is viable and even accepted in a one vs one format, but less so in a multi person format where it often leads to games drawn out unnecessarily. Single target removal on lands is something I have yet to run across anyone who has a problem with. If you play a Gaea's Cradle/Nykthos/Cabal coffers etc. then you pretty much play that epecting some opponent to deal with it at some point...and if no one does, then that's a battle they'll have to fight on a different axis in dealing with the spells you're able to launch into. I'm looking forward to the podcast where you all discuss land destruction and the seeing the multitude of comments stating their viewpoints on single vs mass.

The problem with tergrid right is either 1 of 2 things. Either they use their discard early before tegrid so she can stick. Or they have to cast tergid sorta naked. Tergrid tends not to resolve or make it around to their turn. I dont have a problem with her either way.

Y'all need to pay closer attention to your audio levels. Volume is all over the place and it's really hard to listen to.

RE: Universes Beyond. I love Street Fighter. Been playing for years. I go to tournaments and have made some amazing friends playing that game. Chun is my favorite character and has been my main since day one. When I think about my journey as a player, from how humbling the learning process as a newbie was, to all the fun drunk hotel sets at events and everything in between and after, it was all playing Chun. That character isn't just Street Fighter to me, she's fighting games as a whole. I truly believe that my time playing fighting games has helped me to be more humble and find focus in a way that has straight up made me a better person. I say the above to make it very clear how much Chun as a character means to me when I say I couldn't give less of a fuck about a Chun-li MTG card. I play Magic because I like Magic. Magic is a game with its own world and characters. I like making new memories with characters like Drana and Kemba who are represented through their cards and mechanics. I don't need Chun here too. I hate the crossover idea in general here. Its not about what is plausible with multiverses or immersion, so much as all this IP mixing just feels like its designed to make you point at (and buy) things you know and it kind of grosses me out. I know some supergenius is going to tell me that "this is just how companies work and they want to make money" like I don't know that already but the point is that it feels pandering. I play Magic because I like Magic. I did not need you to slap one of my favorite non MtG characters on a card just to get me to buy more product. Maybe it's all just not for me and that's fair too but I can't help how I feel about it. Guess at the very least I'm happy some people can enjoy it even if it isn't me.

@fosterdawson7339

Жыл бұрын

what are your thoughts on the in magic versions of the cards?

@theSHELFables

Жыл бұрын

@@fosterdawson7339 They're fine I guess. I mostly just miss them doing blocks and trying to tell a story over multiple sets w/ planes and characters. Right now it just feels like they're cranking out as much as they can and sometimes its Fortnite or whatever. Reskinning those cards makes them fit in better but that approach to world building is still gone which sucks.

I think new Elesh Norn is GOOD for commander. Just like how we are asking for anti-treasure tech, this is anti-ETB tech. As someone who HATES playing against blink decks that take 30 minute turns, this boogeyman is just what the format needs.

@donb7519

Жыл бұрын

yea but it also shuts off cards that come in precons and beginner budget decks like solemn and the elf that fetches on etb it should of at least had a once per turn on the second clause

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say GOOD. I would say STRONG. There are other design decisions that could have been made to make this more for what you are worried about. Strict Proctor allows for those "one time" ETRB's to be feasible, but not something close to infinite.

I also think it's funny that Commander players will complain about needing removal in their deck for cards like Elesh Norn, when half of your decklist in formats like Modern are the same handful of answers to your opponent's threats. Commander is casual, but you shouldn't be an idiot, or you'll lose games. If you want to play a deck with all fun and no answers, you can. Just don't complain when you lose to the first thing your opponent plays.

@Tvboy777

Жыл бұрын

Unless you're playing hard control, inevitably in the war between questions and answers, questions will always win.

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

@@Tvboy777 Yours can't win if theirs already did.

@Spaced92

Жыл бұрын

Probably, but I will say Sheldon is more in touch with the casual side of the fanbase if people think we should push generically good stax cards for the format. I don't even care if people go all land destruction on me, but it's not pleasant when I see other people flip out about stax pieces.

@ethanglaeser9239

Жыл бұрын

@@Spaced92 Out of curiosity, what do you think of Dranith Magistrate?

@ryantomczak2248

Жыл бұрын

I agree 100%

Even if you don't have too many etb triggers, Elesh Norn works like a stax piece keeping others from having their triggers. I think it's more powerful than it looks.

@jetsetdizzy9433

Жыл бұрын

How does that make two treasure? Smother tithe isn't an ETB.

@ryanmalinowski7529

Жыл бұрын

@@jetsetdizzy9433 you're right. I've changed the comment to reflect this

Can't wait for folks to realize the best way to beat an Elesh Norn is to copy an Elesh Norn. Their removal is probably going to be 90% O rings and such that won't work against my Mirror Image or whatever.

@dontmisunderstand6041

Жыл бұрын

Can't wait for folks to realize competent deckbuilders are not caring about her first ability, only the second.