Third age starts after the war of the last alliance. Isildur cuts Sauron’s ring hand and takes the ring for himself. That’s when it starts.

@RR-ut3xl

Жыл бұрын

this is correct

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the clarification. It will take me some time and a re-read to get all the details right in my head. (Richard).

Between Rings of Power and The Wheel of Time, Amazon has spent a ton of money to disappoint fantasy fans.

I would recommend "nerd of the rings" and "Tolkien untangled" youtubers who break down the silmarillion etc. Gives you great info and actually gets you wanting to read the books

@setonix9151

Жыл бұрын

I don't get why Nerd of The Rings protects the Rings of Power so much

@haleysaunders1281

Жыл бұрын

@@setonix9151 everyones got there own opinion and there aloud there opinion, I'm not a fan of the rings of power but I love nerd of the rings videos on the silmarillion.

By the way, when Númenóreans, led by the king Ar-Pharazôn, went against the Ban of Valar and landed on the shore of Aman, they were actually strong enough to take on the Valar, maybe even Manwë. Remember that even Sauron himself surrendered to Númenórean army simply because he knew that he was no match for their might. So it was not the Valar which brought The Downfall of Númenor, but Ilúvatar, who at the call of Manwë buried the king Ar-Pharazôn and his Númenórean army, trapping them inside the Caves of the Forgotten until the last battle, Dagor Dagorath. If it wasn't for Ilúvatar's intervention, who knows? Only justice from that incident(?) was that Sauron, who tricked Númenóreans and brought about their downfall, sank with the Island of Númenór, thereby robbing him of his ability to assume fair and charming forms forever, seriously handicapping his ability of poisoning the minds of others from that point on . Serves him right, that creep.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the correction. For a first read through, it became hard to keep everything straight. However, as soon as someone makes the correction, I am reminded of that part in the book. (Richard) Have you read the Silmarillian, if so how many times? Or did you watch videos on Middle Earth?

Love the effort you’re putting into the video. I find that First time readers of The Silmarillion are always enjoyable to listen.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching. Always nice to hear. (Richard)

reading that chapter picturing Sauron in his Anatar form laughing on the Numenorean throne while it all gets wrent asunder by the sea was amazing

@majkus

Жыл бұрын

The most evil characters literally cannot understand the Good in Tolkien's world. Sauron could understand Saruman, but thought Gandalf was foolish for not trying to take the Ring himself. Morgoth was secure in the knowledge that the Elves and Edain could not win their war against him, because the Valar would not take their part; he could not foresee how a half-elf bearing a Silmaril back to Valinor as the representative of Elves and Men could plead for their aid and doom him. And Sauron could not conceive of the Valar yielding their power to the One for any reason. Which is why the Rings of Power story of the barely-named southlands 'map', and Sauron's contingency plan for regrouping there, "A plan to be enacted in the event of Morgoth's defeat..." ('enacted' is one of the words the writers do not use correctly), is laughable to say the least. Morgoth was Sauron's god. He literally could not conceive of Morgoth falling to the Eldar and Edain (in which he was correct). The writers truly did not understand any of these matters.

@RR-ut3xl

Жыл бұрын

@@majkus couldn't agree more!

I'm so glad you worked to communicate the difference in Tolkien's lore from what we see in the TV show. By doing so, you very clearly show why it's so difficult for us to actually CARE about the portrayals we see in Rings of Power. I hope this video gets more views than you could imagine. You've got a new subscriber today.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thanks glad you enjoyed the video.

I wonder how Arwen fits in that "gift of death" topic you brought up. If it was considered a gift to elves, you would think that her giving up the light of the Eldar wouldn't be so frowned upon!

A common experience among readers of Tolkien’s books is “a hunger to find out more about the historical past” of Middle Earth and the people and places named while reading “The Lord of the Rings”. Tolkien wrote his books/world with such immersion that the reader experiences a “historical believability”. It’s as if the events of elves, dark lords, epic wars, and grand heroes are a part of our modern day history. That feature beckons one to read further and further back in time in Tolkien’s mythos. People that feel that experience are good candidates for reading The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and his other books.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Well I definitely got hooked. I purchased the rest of the books about middle earth and will be exploring it myself. Maybe I will finally figure out what happened to the ent-wives. (Richard)

I don’t comment a lot on KZread videos but I want to thank you for all your videos. Tolkien has been my favorite since a small child but I found your channel trying to read The Wheel of Time books that are just okay books but y’all helped me enjoy those more than I did.

@2ToRamble

5 ай бұрын

Wow, thank you. I'm so happy we helped you enjoy wot more.

@boxerjeep

5 ай бұрын

@@2ToRamble I almost stopped a few times to be honest but your channel is one reason I am continuing. I am more than half way through Lord of Chaos but I really did not like the first book and Fires of Heaven I thought was awful. This book is a lot better than the previous book.

Something from the real second age: The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hemlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen Of stars in shadow shimmering. Tinúviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of stars was in her hair, And in her raiment glimmering. There Beren came from mountains cold, And lost he wandered under leaves, And where the Elven-river rolled, He walked alone and sorrowing. He peered between the hemlock-leaves And saw in wonder flowers of gold Upon her mantle and her sleeves, And her hair like shadow following. Enchantment healed his weary feet That over hills were doomed to roam; And forth he hastened, strong and fleet, And grasped at moonbeams glistening. Through woven woods in Elvenhome She lightly fled on dancing feet, And left him lonely still to roam In the silent forest listening. He heard there oft the flying sound Of feet as light as linden-leaves, Or music welling underground, In hidden hollows quavering. Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves, And one by one with sighing sound Whispering fell the beachen leaves In the wintry woodland wavering. He sought her ever, wandering far Where leaves of years were thickly strewn, By light of moon and ray of star In frosty heavens shivering. Her mantle glinted in the moon, As on a hill-top high and far She danced, and at her feet was strewn A mist of silver quivering. When winter passed, she came again, And her song released the sudden spring, Like rising lark, and falling rain, And melting water bubbling. He saw the elven-flowers spring About her feet, and healed again He longed by her to dance and sing Upon the grass untroubling. Again she fled, but swift he came. Tinúviel! Tinúviel! He called her by her elvish name; And there she halted listening. One moment stood she, and a spell His voice laid on her: Beren came, And doom fell on Tinúviel That in his arms lay glistening. As Beren looked into her eyes Within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies He saw there mirrored shimmering. Tinúviel the elven-fair, Immortal maiden elven-wise, About him cast her shadowy hair And arms like silver glimmering. Long was the way that fate them bore, O'er stony mountains cold and grey, Through halls of ireon and darkling door, And woods of nightshade morrowless. The Sundering Seas between them lay, And yet at last they met once more, And long ago they passed away In the forest singing sorrowless.

@Makkaru112

Жыл бұрын

Hope you get the chance to read this

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

@@Makkaru112 (Richard) This song in the fellowship of the ring made me deeply interested in the history of the world. One of the many songs and stories that convinced me to read the Silmarillion.

The Silmarillion is indeed a hard read, I read it once and recently started reading it again but the first time I was overwhelmed by it, it’s a lot to take in. Nerd of the rings is a youtube channel that does videos on the events from the Silmarillion and they really help understand the story better, I recommend them to everyone that wants to learn more about the Tolkien legendarium but doesn’t have the time or the energy to read the books.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I (Richard) have seen their channel. I tried to avoid it because I wanted to find out the story on my own. Now that I have read the Silmarillion I should check their videos out.

@Makkaru112

Жыл бұрын

You’d like to watch audiobooks of Tolkien reading it and other great audiobooks out there. One being Phoenix Cast.

For a summary of the Second Age, you couldn't possibly do better than Tolkien Untangled's 5-video series on how he would have written a Second Age tv series. The 4th season (the fall of Numenor) is just breathtaking. (And none of it contradicts what Tolkien wrote.)

I loved the TROP and I know it's not true to the lore at all. Middle Earth is my favorite place to travel to in books and movies and It got me excited enough to re-read all of the books again which i haven't done since I was in high school. I tried to read The Silmarillion but at that point my attention span was nowhere near what it needed to be to finish it. I think i only made it around 30-40 pages before i was got overwhelmed. But now im excited to get to it and finally finish it. Love the video keep it up!

Fantastic episode. Agree 100% with your take on TROP. I’m not sure I care enough to watch the second season unless major changes happen. Which they probably won’t because Amazon and the show runners seem to be very stubborn and defensive about that turd they gave us.

Don’t worry richard, i’ve read the Silmarillion 9 times and i still struggle with remembering stuff🤣

Tolkien: okay during this period of time I'm not going to write anything, because nothing of note happened. Rings of Power: YO THERE ARE THESE WHOLE WINDOWS OF TIME WHERE WE CAN INSERT A BUNCH OF FANFICTION INTO.

I am, for words that I cannot find, quite proud of myself for no longer being able to visit my local library because I checked out The Silmarilion. I wish I still had it in my custody because it was printed in 1986, if I remember correctly. A multihewed purple on blue cover. By far my favorite book in the Tolkien copyright. Complete history of Middle Earth. From its creation.

@dishman4694

4 ай бұрын

P. S. I checked it out well over 13 years ago. I ended up putting it outside the door of a thrift shop. Along with well over 100 other great works of literature. Reasons aren’t important, I just hope they reached the right mind.

My Monday is now complete.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

LET’S GO!! But seriously, who paid you to say this 😭?

While the Amazon deal with the Estate was for Lord of the Rings materials as it pertains to the Second Age (and so, for example, includes Elrond's infodump in Fellowship of the Rings), they also can get permission for specific items from Tolkien's other writings. The most obvious example is the map of Númenor, which only appears in 'Unfinished Tales', or the mention of Beleriand, which does not occur in Lord of the Rings (if memory serves). Further, copyright cannot prevent them from being 'informed' by those other materials, for example portraying Galadriel as always wise and opposing Feanor, etc. And of course, the Appendix alone contains critical passages including the one describing how, when Ar-Pharazôn set foot in the Undying Lands, the Valar 'laid down their guardianship and called upon the One' and so the world was changed. (As for Galadriel's place in the Kin-slaying, Tolkien changed his mind about this in the years following LotR's publication, basically making her more heroic over time, and changing her connection with the other Noldorin exiles; see 'Unfinished Tales'). Read the Appendices (A and B, and perhaps F, the very last paragraph of which shows why the surname 'Brandyfoot' is rubbish) which give much of the history. If those bore you-no, you do not have to remember the names of all the kings and queens of Númenor, there will be no quiz-you may not care for the Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien changed little, except for a very difficult story matter where he had to invent an incident. CJRT (Christopher) then published twelve volumes, 'The History of Middle-earth', a scholarly presentation of Tolkien's manuscripts (i.e., with extensive footnotes and documentation of hand corrections), from the earliest versions of the tales that we know as the Silmarillion ('The Book of Lost Tales', begun around 1917), to writings about Middle-earth that he made only months before his death in 1973, as well as 'Unfinished Tales', a more mass-audience book, with somewhat more completed late writings. Thus, we know exactly what materials CJRT had to work with in compiling the Silmarillion, and what was missing and had to be bridged by new narrative. These are not intended as reading matter the way a novel is, but some of Tolkien's most beautiful writing can be found in those volumes, as well as the false starts and changes in The Lord of the Rings, as the story gradually became clearer to him. Deep geekery, but very rewarding. Aside from 'Aldarion and Erendis', there is really nothing resembling a connected story even in The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales that could be adapted to a drama; the Second Age is described in a single chapter of about thirty pages in The Silmarillion and is only a bit more than a prose version of the Appendix materials-but still a chronicle, not a story. There is only one well-known quotable line of dialogue, when Sauron persuades Ar-Pharazôn to invade Valinor: "Great kings take what is their right." This, if no other line of dialogue, _must_ be in Rings of Power. So any drama in the Second Age must be an original story, with original characters speaking original dialogue. Such a drama will be, in effect, the equivalent to a historical drama (or 'fan fiction' if you prefer), but instead of being set in Tudor England or the War Between the States, set against the events of the Second Age. This isn't that hard to do. Like a historical drama, some liberties can be taken with the details (e.g., combining important Civil War battles to streamline a story), without doing real violence to the known history. They didn't need anything but 'Lord of the Rings Plus A Few Other Things', the rights they got, to get it right. That is no excuse. They got it wrong anyway. And for very casual viewers who only know Middle-earth from the Jackson films, there is a danger that they will receive Rings of Power as 'head canon' and think that it somehow represents the 'true' back-story to the forging of the Rings (remember those?) and the downfall of Númenor and the first defeat of Sauron. And that is rather sad.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I really do agree with your last point. Something similar happened to The Wheel of Time. It has tainted (get it) the series. (Richard)

Generally I'm mostly agree with Richard's opinion. Some little corrections. Sindar are not Teleri (or Solosimpi), they are relatives (part of original Teleri tribe), but Sindar did not come to Valinor at all. Also concerning Galadriel, from Silmarillion it is not clear, but in other pieces of Ronald (published by Christiopher) texts she can fight against Noldors on the Teleri side during the first kinslaying. And the "halls of the dead" are the halls of MANDOS (Irmo) not Maed(h)ros (son of Feanor).

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the fact check. Eventually I'll get all of it straight, guess I should re-read it pretty soon. (Richard)

@danilakovalev7669

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble No problems, JRR legendarium was not sorted out by author also there are several versions of the same story which can be quite different with each other. Also names can be different and assigned to different persons throuout different texts. Teleri was once name of Vaniar, Noldors were Gnomes, Finrod (or Fingon) was attributed to different actors etc. And I'm not a good JRR expert by any means but l'm loving this creation.

I'm loving this podcast.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

As a Tolkien fan and reader since the late 70s, I appreciate the effort you made in presenting this subject. The Silmarillion can be likened to the eleven equivalent to the Bible. It's very formal and reverent, written as a true chronicle of history. In universe, it's said that Bilbo compiled a lot of what we know as the Silmarillion while he lived in Rivendale. He would read the original writings in Elrond's library and talk to elves and record. If you're ready for the next level of Tolkien lore, read the 12 volumes of The History Of Middle Earth.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I (Richard) have purchased them, but I am going to read the other novels first (like the children of hurin, and nature of middle earth). I imagine the "History of Middle Earth" will be helpful reference when I get curious about a specific subject. Have you read all 12 volumes?

@swordmonkey6635

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble Yes, I've read all 12 volumes. Be forwarned: after the first 2 volumes (Unfinished Tales 1 & 2), the books become a forensic dissection of Tolkien's writing. It's not a history of Middle Earth, but a history of Tolkien's writing of the Middle Earth books. Remember how Christopher Tolkien said in the Preface of the Silmarillion that his dad left fragmentary and alternate stories and it was difficult for him to decide how to glue together a story? Well, Christopher said "screw it" and decided to show all the fragments, dead ends, strange starts etc for all of Tolkien's Middle Earth writings. The contradictory nature of Tolkien's earliest writings can confuse many readers (example: at first, the elves were called gnomes). It shows you the evolution of his creation of Middle Earth in microscopic detail. It's not an easy read since there are so many false starts and alterations to previous stuff. It makes the Silmarillion look like a children's novel. But it's the best look into the mind and process of Tolkien. It's a must read for anyone who really wanted to appreciate the amount of care, time and effort he put into his stories. The meme for Tolkien lore fans is: smirking at people who complain that The Silmarillion is a hard read... as they thumb through the pages of Volume 5: The Lost Road and Other Writings. lol

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I (Richard) don't know when I will get to it, but I do look forward to it.

The tale or Turin I find to be the best tale in the book!

Amazon was not forced by the Tolkien estate to buy the appendices. Amazon should have realized that it would be impossible to write a 2nd age story without the Silmarillion, but they thought they were more genius than Tolkien himself. Telling the story they want to tell with just the appendices is like making a film about the Titanic without being allowed to show the ship and the iceberg.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

That's a great analogy. Can I send you a formal request to replace Richard on the podcast? 😂

help me out here, i'm new to the details. If the noldor and possibly other elves teleri and sindar can't go back to the undying lands; then howcome some like Elrond and Galadriel and Legolas went back in the end?

@nathanlandolt5505

Жыл бұрын

The first 2 had rings of power and also declined the One. Galadriel says herself she can return to Valinor after deciding not to take the Ring(book and movies). Legolas is a little more opaque but I don't think Silvan elves had the same ban placed on them as the Noldor. Also unclear about Gimli. But Bilbo Sam and Frodo are allowed because all 3 carried the One at some point

17:32 Do you think it might be possible that was less of an Easter egg and actually meant to be foreshadowing to a reveal? Like people who watch the movies (the target audience) expect elves to be noble. Sometimes writers hold back and even subvert expectations by telling half a story only to reveal the true reason and method of how the elves came to Middle Earth at a pivotal moment in the story, something Galadrial and the elves all Kno but don't share openly as a shameful part of their history. If the series is over, then there's nothing left to be said, but sometimes you have to be patient before you write something off that might've been intentionally left out.

The Rings of Power was made by those people who like, ate this incredible dish at a restaurant and wanted to make it themselves, but didn't know how, so they watched some KZread videos and went to a local supermarket but they forgot exactly what ingredients to get so they got few things that they thought were mentioned in the videos and went home and made the dish but what they made was one of those 'Hmm, not exactly what I had but close enough,' kind of deal. So basically not Tolkien, but they made sort of a Fantasy-Action thingy which is okay but not Tolkien, and did I mention that it's not Tolkien? Cause it's not.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

That is how I normally cook at home. However I don't tend to burn my dish in the oven which the ROP writers seem to have done. (Richard) On the whole I do agree with you.

The Silmarillion is very complex!

Honestly when I finished the Silmarillion I said to myself, "OK I didn't undertand anything," so I go to a KZread Chanel that is great named Kai47 (don'y look for it is in spanish). Kai have read and re read the SIlmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the rings, the Unfinished Tales and have read all the Volumes of The Story of the middle earth by Christopher Tolkien and the book of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien multiple times for years and years and years. He is a very hardcorde fan and have read it in Spanish and English, so he is probably the person who knows more about the middle Erath in Spain. Waching Lore videos is very useful because the Silmarillion is no an easy read and It helps me a lot to understand who was some of the characters and what they do exactly. It was perfect for me because I really dont want to re read the silmarillion, I have other interest. I really recomend do the same, look for your Lore KZreadr of trust and complement the information you gave out of the book with that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't those appendices an integral part of the original trilogy? At least in Poland they were published together with the Return of the king in a single book.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

(Richard) If you care more about the history of the world they are integral. If you only want to know the plot of the book and the characters' story, you can skip it. I didn't, but it is a good litmus test to see if someone should read the Silmarillion.

@aniaw5722

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble You are right you can enjoy the trilogy without them, but if you like to know more about the world where the action took place it is a good starting point. I've read the Silmarillion twice, once in Polish and the second time in English and I can tell you that it wasn't easy. I think that the less hardcore fans of Tolkien should read it selectively.

When is next wheel of time episode?

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

That should be coming within the month!

I don’t mind the changes. My issue with the series is that it’s so much setup. I like that they made Galadriel the one who hunts Sauron. Because he did kill members of her family. I’m enjoying Elrond & Durin relationship. Since we know Sauron is going to sow in dissent between the races. The show works for me.

So if Galadriel is banned from the undying lands in the Similrilion…how does she get to go back after the LOTR triology???

@nickbarker8792

11 ай бұрын

Galadriel was banned from re-entry because she was part of the flight of the Noldor from Valinor. Her reasoning was wanting power to lead a people herself. She had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. -Unfinshed Tales In LOTR she passed up power willingly when Frodo offered her the ring.

Could you guys do a review of American Gods :)

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I (Richard) love Pratchett so much that Gaiman has been on the list. Do you prefer American Gods over Good Omens?

@alexjoekatz8362

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble haven’t read good omens….Yet

What's on the Menu Next week Boys!?!

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

Next week is our Tolkien deep dive. It is a long one. We are looking forward to your guys’ thoughts.

@WraithGamingonYT

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble Yes yes yes ... love long ones 🔥

First two episodes i was optimistic still. But by know i agree it kind of sucks. I like some scenes, but the characters are the main issue, they are mostly very bland.

Do you think that the rings of power should have used the new edit commissioned by the Tolkien Estate “the fall of Numinor”?

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

My (Richard) copy has just arrived of the book. Not sure what amazon should have done, other than hire better writers.

@jakesanderscoaching6890

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble it’s just frustrating to think, oh we’re going to do a whole 5 series (which was a condition of sale, that they had to fulfil 50 hours of playback) on the second age and not use the book that has all the second age in it. Considering only 1 chapter of the Silmarillion covers the main events of the rings of power it’s not that annoying they didn’t use it, but this book (combining that chapter, the unfinished tails and the history of middle earth) would have been the perfect source material to then write from

@jakesanderscoaching6890

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble also just a note, the slaughter of elves on Elves occurred on middle earth during the wars with Morgoth, not before. Which is part of the reason for that whole area of middle earth being sunken as part of the destruction of Beleriand at the end of the first age (defeat of Morgoth). You mixed this and the destruction of Nunemor together which is a separate event in the second age.

the show is based on bullet points... intern feels like bullet points

My biggest issue with the show is the atmosphere. The second the show starts, it feels nothing like Middle Earth. Compare that to the intro of Fellowship, you hear Galadriel whisper, the music swells, it becomes obvious this is a beautiful world on the verge of crisis. But in this show, it just coasts along and any attempt at atmosphere feels forced.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

I (Richard) do agree, the tone and atmosphere are just off with the new show. In the PJ films, the tone was set in the beginning and hooked you till the end.

I wouldn’t trust Amazon with more rights to his stories.

Hello I'm The first

@Richard-yr6bt

Жыл бұрын

Hello The First I'm Richard.

I appriciate your review on the show however I think you conterdict yourself in a lot of your criticism. You say that you don't care how they get from flag post to flag post as long as they get there. You then complain about it, how the little things that aren't in the show are whats wrong with it. you said there are two way to go about a project like this, either get way in dept or the flag post then you go on to complain how the fall of Númenor but that is a ton of information. The fall of Númenor could have a 8 episode show of itself. The other thing that really stuck out to me is the fact that the change of how Númenor fell is the biggest flaw how else would you be able to sum of the story in a way casual fan understand?

Pretending RoP is a fiasco shows ya need to shave the neck beard.

@2ToRamble

Жыл бұрын

You are right, I do need a shave. My beard game is weak. However RoP is still a fiasco. (Richard)

@trikz3105

Жыл бұрын

@@2ToRamble you know you’ll have to try harder if you want to earn that grift money. Maybe add some red eyes to the thumbnails and complain about Neil Gaimam. 🤣