A mechanic told me never buy a car without the option to shut off the start stop technology. He says it wears the starter out quicker and claims the starter replacement would cause well over what you may save in fuel.

@recabitejehonadab2654

Жыл бұрын

I hate it.

@martinsmith9618

8 ай бұрын

My car is 10 years old next year and I always use stop/start. No replacement parts so far. I believe the feature does not use the starter motor to restart anyway.

@joshz7712

27 күн бұрын

​​@@martinsmith9618 it doesent. I remember I had it on my 21 Ranger and it freaked me out. Didn't know I had it and thought my truck died at a light. But I remember looking it up and it does something with electricity to pause the engine. It doesent completely kill it. That's why the AC still stays cool when the engine stops at a light.

I think auto start/stop helps manufacturers meet emissions and fuel economy standards. That’s it. Think about your A/C compressor starting and stopping at every red light in Phoenix when it’s 115 in July. That is a problem. How about start/stop on the freeway when you’re stuck in stop-and-go traffic. Not practical. I disable it every time.

Manufacturers love it because it gets their EPA numbers up... The mouthpieces for the manufacturers will tell you that the systems are beefed up and they take care of any issues with engine wear and tear over the life of the car... but talk to the people that actually twist the wrenches and work on these things since they've been adopted by ALL... you'll get a different story, about the cost of repairing these things over time

Commenting before watching but think if it is longer than 30 seconds and doing more than 6 stops a trip it may be helpful but I'd think that it'd be harder on the battery and starter

I can understand using the start stop system in a car that has an integrated electric motor in the drivetrain like a hybrid. My worry is the other systems Bendix starter engages and disengages the flywheel it would wear out prematurely. One other thing, the proper tire pressure for your automobile is not on the tire, it’s all the sticker in the door frame. The pressure on the tire is the maximum pressure allowed for that tire.

@tommywieringo6640

2 жыл бұрын

What you save in gas you lose in having the starters replaced and they say the worst wear on an engine is the start up

@juliet4093

8 ай бұрын

@@tommywieringo6640the worst wear is start up when the oil is completely at the bottom, this is not the case for a brief stop

Does anyone figure in the cost of a new starter and battery on the real savings. As we all know there is only so many starts in a starter. I'm sure if you add in repair cost its better to keep this feature off. Yes it save gas but the gas is a very small savings compared to a starter installed.

@jimafton5659

2 жыл бұрын

stater alternator battery wear and tear on the motor I thought a car uses more gas starting than is saved by the stopping the 8 sec s of idling before it automatically restarts

@James-kd2cm

2 жыл бұрын

I can’t remember the cost but I know my wife’s car needed the secondary battery for the start stop replaced… and if you make a lot of short trips you may not charge that battery enough.

Awesome video! Thanks for ALL your knowledge! In 2019 I bought my first vehicle ever can have no clue what I was doing or looking for except all wheel drive and big enough for my growing family and paid 16k in full for a '10 rouge 🤕 ripped off!... Long story short the dealership closed down for good during covid and I now cannot even register it or get a hold of anyone who knows how to fix this issue DMV had no resolution other than trying to get ahold of the dealership owner. Leading to needing getting a new car and your videos are my premier stop for knowledge until I'm ready to pick one that you recommend!

My battery lasted only 2 years with this stupid feature. Worst things is the car would not start at the traffic light after it has shut off the engine.

Wife’s BMW has this feature, I turn it off always. It’s horrible when I come to a stop sign it shuts down just as I step on gas to continue. The money you save on gas save it for your replacement starter!

@ionut7108

6 ай бұрын

It's been a year since your comment. Can you tell start stop haters how many starters you changed?

Does it affect the car battery? It draw quite a lot of juice to start and stop the engine.... My car died twice.....

So it’ll take years and years and years and years to see any appreciable “savings”. What’s the point; turn it off. The fuel used when people floor it from a stop negates any savings from the auto stop/start anyway

@luigipasta9496

2 ай бұрын

At the moment, you see any cheap saving.. it's time to buy a new costly battery

We turn it off every start. Honda conveniently put the disable button adjacent to the start button. The problem for me is stop signs. We have more stop signs than traffic lights, and having the car turn off only to immediately start back up 2 seconds later is just absurd. It makes sense in something like a Prius where the electric motor launches the car anyway. But shutting down a V6 just to power it right back up 2 seconds later doesn't have any value. Fairly certain it was developed just to game the system during EPA city mileage testing. The city portion of testing includes stretches on the dyno where the car is idled. Well, yeah, if it's off that whole time, it's going to report a gas savings. But that isn't realistic, it's just gaming the system. To each their own. But for us, it gets a thumbs down.

@BusterKitten

2 жыл бұрын

too bad the car companies didn't program the start/stop button the other way around, IF you want it to work then press the button to turn it on. Otherwise you would not have to deal with it every time you got in the car

@juliet4093

8 ай бұрын

Yeah no, I desperately wish thst i had auto stop start on my car, I live in a city and the constant idling wastes a tonnnnn of my fuel

@Erdie5

8 ай бұрын

@@juliet4093 The Honda manual specifically states that if you're stopping X amount of times per hour to disable it. I forget what X is, but it wasn't much. 10?

I'm getting 38.7 MPG in my 2022 Civic LX. I'm using the stop/start feature because some of our traffic lights can cause idle times of 2 minutes and even 2.5 minutes! I also use ECO mode and although I'm not a hyper-miler I do carefully watch the traffic lights ahead and never race up to them.

@salvor1

5 ай бұрын

2 liter engine uses 0.1 gal per hour idling. 2 min is 0.003 gal. YOU FIGURE IT OUT.

Great video! I have a 2017 Accord, which was one of the last Accords with the V6 option. Mine has the V6 engine and it has the auto cylinder disengagement when you are cruising. It is an automatic system and there isn't even an indicator when it does it, but even when I am cruising at higher speeds, if I keep the cruise control on (or even keep a steady foot), I have noticed that I usually do better mileage wise. I have the 1st Gen Ridgeline as well with the V6, but it does not have that system. I know the current generation has it, so I wonder if 2nd Gen Ridgeline owners who have owned the 1st Gen model notice the difference in mileage they get from their usual commutes? Lastly, I have a cousin who I think is more in the mindset of the idling at stops as a good thing, as he always puts his car (it's an automatic) in neutral when he is at a stop sign or signal light. I have told him in the past that it is not good to do that, especially with modern cars that have a "brain" that are adjusting and adapting to the different driving habits that occur at any given moment, but he thinks he is saving gas, or who knows. Even though I told him that the vehicle is still on, so even when idling, it is still consuming gas in the still running engine, he continues to do it. I told him to especially be careful if he does this on any inclines or declines on the roadways. Oh well, I guess we all have different driving habits and quirks that are different.

For auto stop and start. Besides starter and battery what about the. Wear and tear on motor bcz the start is hard on the engine too isn't it.

I found with my Toyota prius hybrid over twenty years, the main drawback bing the need for expensive synthetic oil to prevent wear caused by letting the oil pressure raise and fall in all temperature conditions.

I would like to see someone test piston ring and cylinder wear after 100000 miles on two of the same engines. One with it on and the other one off....?

The auto engine shutoff "feature" has nothing to do with true fuel savings and everything to do with EPA ratings. It's just a manufacturer tactic to get heavier vehicles into production without sanctions, bans, etc. One look at driver behavior on any road or highway will tell you, actual drivers could care less about fuel efficiency.

You may want to advise people to inflate their tires according to the sticker on the door… not the max on the tires. It was my understanding the door sticker is more accurate (advised this by a Tire manufacturer rep). I’m sure there are exceptions.

@everymandriver

2 жыл бұрын

You just did LOL

@tyt2lynnin1

Жыл бұрын

@@everymandriver you think this is a joke? tires can pop if you just inflate them. I did it when I was a teen so i would get a stiffer ride, and in one hard corner it actually popped.

I was wondering about this. Having a new 2023 crv stop idle i was worried it sucks more gas thank you

I think the bigger question would be is , does frequent start and stop impact components in your vehicle related to this operation and if it does then what would the cost to repair components be to the related cost of fuel saved over time ? I know there would be a variable depending on how you drive.

I love it when the cars in front at a red light have stop/start. then whilst waiting for the green light, I'm not breathing in their exhaust fumes through my cabin ventilation system. Stop/start reduces toxic (NOX SOX.) emissions when stopped. and I'm not polluting the air for the car behind as well.

The real question is does it save gas when it works? Mine on my jeep always says that it's not ready. I went to dealer so many times I gave up on it working

Start stop just destroys alternators and starters afaik

I have a Pacifica and I absolutely hate start stop. But you can disable it when the little aux battery that runs it wears out...just don’t replace it. Then your car becomes normal and not an aggravation.

Think about it from an ENGINEERING Point of View. Your Engine is meant for so many STOP/START cycles. I believe thats around 100 000 or so. I read that they beefed up some of the internals to compensate for the extra cycles, to around 300 000. If true, next time you are out with your AUTO Stop/Start, count how many times yours turns OFF and ON. I think you will find that it's more than 3x (100 000 x 3 = 300 000). So ask yourself what about the other parts that take a lot of wear and tear on this type of driving? STARTER? BATTERY? FUEL PUMP? and I am sure other parts as well. I think that any money you save, again from what I have been reading, around 3% REAL WORLD consumption. So, if the average is 13 500 miles per year driven, then 3% savings = roughly 405 miles "saved" or at 25.4 mpg (2021 epa standard) would = 15.94 Gallons "Saved" at say $4 per gallon = $63.78 "saved" over the year. My Question is this, if your Fuel Pump, Battery(s), Starter wears out prematurely form the EXCESSIVE Stop/Start cycles, what does that cost? Let's say it takes 10 yrs for that to happen. You have "saved" a minimum of $637.80. Battery might only cost your a Couple of Hundred and a Hundred to install (Roughly), but what of the other parts? Say a Starter? Ranges from minimum $500 to more than $1500. Fuel Pump? What happens if these parts go "early" from the excessive extra cycles? No one is sure of the long term results yet as its still a relatively NEW technology that is still being perfected. Something to think about.

@aspecreviews

6 ай бұрын

My 2002 Prius starts and stops all the time. It has no starter, alternator, clutch, or shifting. The 300V battery spools the engine up in the blink of an eye. The engine itself is not built any differently to handle continuously starting and stopping, it's an Echo engine with different valve timing. There are Prii out there with 300,000 mi with no engine issues.

then compare the savings on fuel against replacing the starter before its time because of the constant starting of the engine. Then the premature wear on mechanical parts that requires engine oil to stay healthy, those parts not being fulling coated with oil at every restart. I just turn the start/stop feature off every time I get in the car. If I know I'll be sitting for several minutes at the railroad crossing or any other lengthy wait I'll turn the engine off, but waiting at the intersection on a red light? No

@luigipasta9496

2 ай бұрын

Not only the starter. But the battery is also a costly one to support so many engine start... and it's not a common battery... and that add another huge cost that gas saving won't compensate!!

"These systems can save money on... money"? Huhh, what?

What about the wear and tear on the starter how much to start and stop shorting a life of the starter. I think Ram has the best idea with the belt start doesn't affect the actual car starter.

As a mechanic I see this all the time. The auto starters generally run about twice as much as the regular starter and generally go out two to three times as often. So by the time you factor in the difference and replacing the starter multiple times would the difference in fuel outweigh that? I don't know exactly how much fuel it saves but let's say the difference in replacing the starter and extra time plus having to pay twice as much for the starter would be about $700 every 8 years. So if it's going to save you $100 in fuel a year then the auto start might save you money. If it's going to save you less it's probably not saving you any money overall.

How much idling time does buying a new starter due to over use from stop n start at every light.?

@RollingThunder85

Жыл бұрын

And cold starts are he'll on a engine in cold climates your stabbing your engine in the tail pipe at every light

Most modern cars have auto stop start. They also have a switch to turn the feature off. Auto stop start usually does not use your starter. Because of direct fuel injection, it uses a compression start. The engine stops with one cylinder near the top of it compression stroke right before fuel has been injected. When you take your foot off the brakes, fuel is injected and the spark plug fires starting the engine. Here’s the downsides. Everytime your engine shuts down in gets heat soak which causes carbon deposits. As fuel is no longer port injected, there is no fuel to clean the back of the intake values. Carbon build up on intake valves reduces engine performance and efficiency. Every time the an engine starts it puts strain on the value train specifically the timing chain (belt) and tensioners. But it gets worse. Many modern engines use turbo chargers which spin at very high speeds. The bearing it lubricated and cooled with engine oil. The harder you push the engine the more heat is generated in the turbo bearing. If you turn the engine off hard operation (rapid starts etc) the oil in the turbo bearing solidifies (this is called coking the bearing). Now imagine this happening 50 times every time you drive the car. If😊 you want to save your engine, turn off the auto stop start button when ever you drive your car.

it’s a feature not a gas saving solution lol

Ho Dave, Thanks for sharing.

Ok why is it talking about a bad fuel gauge thats not the point of the video

I never use mine.

A unnecessary gimmick to extort more money in modern new cheap cars made out of plastic .😁😁😁😁😁

I'd like to know how much it cost the consumer after the government mandated start stop systems. R&D to figure out how to make it work, actual cost for programing, material costs etc. What is the true cost per vehicle to implement start stop & how long will it take to recover that cost?

@everymandriver

10 ай бұрын

Good point - I appreciate the feedback. If you visit quotes.everymandriver.com you can see the best deals/prices on new cars/trucks in your zip code! It’s a free search engine and it’s Everyman Driver Approved!

So… TL:DW if the car idles for more than 7 seconds, it’s worth it… if the car idles for less than 7 seconds, it’s not worth it… Good video, I’ll be paying more attention to this than I actually wanted to now, lol!

What's worse, spending a bit more in gas or putting more wear and tear on your engine?

What about the fact that stop / start requires a special, more expensive battery? Which needs to be replaced every 3-4 years..

Turn it off 👍🏽

@everymandriver

2 жыл бұрын

Did you watch the first 4 minutes? LOL

@2008guelo

2 жыл бұрын

@@everymandriver yeah it saves gas but to me I think it’s not perfected just yet .

@krissimons1339

2 жыл бұрын

@@everymandriver Yeah, but my wife has it on her Hyundai Kona and hates the slight hesitation caused by the engine restarting when trying to pull out into traffic. Also, could this be a safety issue if the engine for some reason doesn't stay restarted (stalls) and leaves you halfway into traffic?

@everymandriver

2 жыл бұрын

@@2008guelo perfected? The science says it works.

@2008guelo

2 жыл бұрын

@@everymandriver you’re right the science says it works it does save gas, it’s just I drove numerous cars and most of the start stop felt terrible, hesitation etc. and on some I couldn’t even tell the car restarted. Great video always love your content.

I have a Camry Hybrid and if it’s just a quick stop 🛑 probably not much of a difference. At times if your leaving it for a minute or more I am going to see the difference. In winter ❄️ running my heat or summertime running 🏃‍♀️ my A/C I will see a huge drop in my fuel ⛽️ economy because the battery 🔋 drains quickly making the engine come on draining fuel ⛽️ while idling. Just seeing my engine on a cold 🥶 morning warming up 🆙 you can see the amount of fuel ⛽️ being used to get my engine up to temperature 🤒. Fuel ⛽️ economy can be average 38 mpg down to 28 mpg on a cold 🥶 winter ❄️ day. Excessive idling my fuel ⛽️economy drops ☔️ fast 💨. When not idling life is great 😊.

@BlueDroneBlues

2 жыл бұрын

Hybrids do not have a starter, alternator or belts. So, the stop ✋ start feature on my car 🚘 doesn’t hurt 😢 anything.

@aspecreviews

6 ай бұрын

My Prius has a belt to run the water pump and the AC compressor.

How does running car out of fuel over heat the engine 4:08

@everymandriver

3 ай бұрын

?!!

Ask that scientist, what charges the battery when the car idles, vs what charges the batteries when the engine stops. Remember that if the car or truck has large batteries to power up the starter(which is heavy and requires lots of amps to start the engine) and power up the computers, navigation, and any new citizen monitoring and the proposed remote “kill switches”. Our SUV has dual batteries and we started getting the “low battery” alerts on both the Main Battery and the key fob batteries.

The auto start/stop feature is a horrible feature. Had it in an early 2021 Chevy Tahoe and deactivated it after every start via the deactivation button. Car literally shut down at intersection after only about 1,000 miles and "Check Engine" light came on. The Chevy tech at the dealership said to never use the deactivation button because it messes up the engine's computer. A few months later in mid June 2021, Chevrolet removed the auto start/stop feature from the Tahoe on those manufactured from then on and I traded my virtually new Tahoe with only 6K miles and 4 months old in for the new 2021 Chevy Tahoe without that auto start/stop feature, and I've been happy every since. Glad to have a car/SUV without that auto start/stop feature thing. BTW, that feature didn't save any gas, but was just an annoyance. I was also considering buying other cars/SUVs from other brands, but most that I like have the auto start/stop feature, and I just won't buy those cars/SUVs ever. BTW, I also read that when the car stops via that auto start/stop feature, the car accessories run on the battery (really bad for for the battery) while the engine shuts down and the oil settles, so no oil circulation which is bad when you're at a red light and then the engine restarts basically and oil circulation gets going again. So I would stay away from any car that has that auto start/stop feature ... too many headaches just waiting to happen for major repair jobs.

lol ... start stop was ONLY created to save gas on paper. It only works for the manufacturers because of the way the EPA CALCUATES milage. It is NOT a fuel saving feature - it was only implemented so that the OEMs could hit CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) targets arbitrarily established by the government. Starting your car actually uses more fuel then just letting it idle. There most certainly is more wear and tear on components, namely at least your starter. Not a "feature. I disabled mine when my car was new.

@keepgrindingup7661

6 ай бұрын

Agreed! But Hey congratulations you saved $17 on gas but here's a $1,000 repair bill

How much a vehicle can cost for having such a feature? Can gas savings compensate for the cost of such a vehicle?... How costly will it be if you have to pay for any troubleshooting if you have any issue with it? And this last one, those vehicles require a special battery... and that will add a lot of $$$.... so what is the real benefit to the owner ???

Penny wise. Dollar foolish. Saving a tiny amount of fuel isn't worth the wear and tear and shortened engine life caused by constant stop/start cycles.

@richrobb2322

3 ай бұрын

It's main purpose was to reduce emissions period !

@bbemariah

17 күн бұрын

I agree because each time Im at a stop light it takes about 2 sec to turn back on and I honestly feel like it turning off and is actually using more fuel. Constantly turning off/on seems pointless. Im going to turn it OFF.

Old school. No stop start. Next new car has the kill switch.

@harrychildress4575

7 ай бұрын

That “Kill” switch may be inside information. A better name would be “the stop to be robbed” feature. Are they betting your life that a device will not be designed to make it easy to stop a victim at the best possible time to rob or carjack them? Remember that “lane departure detection feature” that came out about ten years ago? Imagine driving down the Interstate and the cars in front of you collided, then you attempt to apply your brakes, and find you can’t divert your vehicle away from the impact, because the “lane departure mechanism will not allow or it resists your efforts to avoid the vehicle that lost control and moved into your path.

@aspecreviews

6 ай бұрын

Most LDW/LKA systems will intentionally disable themselves during hard braking or abrupt steering, because they know such a situation is possible. My grandpa's Acura RDX will disable lane keeping assist if the steering wheel is turned quickly, such as to avoid an object on the road.

I would say yes it does. Buy. And a big but. What you save in fuel it will never cover the cost of say. New battery. Maybe a starter. Not forgetting the starter ring. There is more wear and tear on starting the car.

@everymandriver

4 ай бұрын

Hmmm. By the way, this is my favorite go-to car shopping site: quotes.everymandriver.com! See which local dealership is offering the best deals hassle-free. This free site links you up with a wide range of both new and used vehicles from reputable dealerships right in your zip code. Don't let this opportunity slip away! Visit quotes.everymandriver.com today and kickstart your savings journey! 🌟

Almost every argument against stop/start has been addressed by manufacturers. "It'll wear out my starter and battery faster." - Car makers are putting more robust and better built starters and deep cycle batteries into modern cars to combat the extra wear on these components. "The engine wears out every time it's started." Only when it's cold, and the wear is not that much, also the stop/start is designed to not activate until the engine is warmed up. Wear upon starting a warm engine is so minimal it's barely measurable. Oil takes at least 5 minutes to drain back into the oil pan. How many engines have been through thousands of cold starts in their lifetimes and are north of 150,000 miles, still running? "I'll burn up in the summer and freeze in the winter when the engine stops at a light." - Systems are designed to either re-start automatically or not shut down when the climate control (a/c or heat) is running or at high fan speed. "What if the battery dies?" - The system monitors the battery charge at all times and will not cycle the stop/start if the battery drops below the charge needed to restart. It will also restart immediately if the voltage begins to get too low. "What if I'm turning or making a u-turn?" Most (not all) cars with the system are designed to not shut down if the steering wheel is turned when stopped.

@aspecreviews

Жыл бұрын

My 2002 Prius has an electric coolant pump to keep heat going in the winter. When running the A/C, there is a "cold-storage" evaporator that keeps cold blowing with the engine off, since the compressor is NOT electric. Regardless, the engine won't stop if the cabin isn't near the set temperature, or the engine isn't warmed up.

0:46 this feature “can” save….rather it should have been “this technology WILL save…”

Better keep that fukin clutch pressed

Total fiasco in traffic jam longdistance with longstanding with red lights OK!

This feature is a gimmick. In cold climate it wears down the starter and drains battery. In warm climate it's worse; coolant stops circulating, engine oil stops circulating and cooks in the turbo charger (if there's one), as well as starter motor. And, starting up uses more petrol.

I can't tell you how many times my engine turns off and immediately turns on again just because I inched forward a little bit. Cars don't just come to a dead stop. They stop, then traffic settles. You inch up to close the gap and engine turns back on. Totally useless feature. It doesn't save me any gas whatsoever.

What I have seen is a lot of these savings are calculated by removing the time the car would be ON vs the time it will be OFF. That's not the point. Starting up the car takes fuel and going getting up from Zero rpms is not free energy. simple test. Go 1 mile. Turn the car on and off every 100 ft. Then do it without it and just stop every 100 ft. See which saves you more gas.

@everymandriver

3 ай бұрын

Interesting thought. By the way, have you tried quotes.everymandriver.com yet?! If you want the BEST deal on the NEWEST cars in your zip code, check out: quotes.everymandriver.com! You can easily see which dealership is offering the lowest prices in your area. Visit quotes.everymandriver.com today to see for yourself! 🚗

This guy is so condescending.He acts like Science is absolute and never can be wrong or questioned.

But, did carmakers 'beef up' their starter motors, in order to correctly accommodate this fuel saving feature, in order to engineer a 'correct' solution to added strains on the starter motor? I doubt it, I bet they are still using the same old tired starter motor engineering from 40 years ago!

@richrobb2322

3 ай бұрын

They said they started using "heavy duty" starters, hopefully ! Stop / start was implemented to reduce emissions mainly, secondly, to increase mpg's

If I wanted to save a little bit of gas by turning my engine off, then I'd turn my engine off. I should have the choice. Some things are more important than "saving gas".

Really* not "realy"

the title says Start Stop Feature Saving Gas, but that is not what most of the video is about. Of course it saves gas, the question is how much. I figured out I would save about 2 gal per year. Worth it? NO.

@everymandriver

5 ай бұрын

Ok

I'm not raving about it I assure you

@everymandriver

3 ай бұрын

Ok. By the way, you can easily find out which local dealership is offering the lowest prices in your area. Click the following link: quotes.everymandriver.com! This free site connects you with both new and used cars and trucks from qualified dealerships in your zip code. Check out quotes.everymandriver.com today to see for yourself! 🚗

2 liter engine uses 0.1 gal per hour idling. 2 min is 0.003 gal. YOU FIGURE IT OUT.

@everymandriver

4 ай бұрын

You should try quotes.everymandriver.com for Insider Access to Dealer Pricing! Negotiate your next car deal for FREE! See the best deals/prices on NEW and USED cars/trucks in your zip code! Check it out quotes.everymandriver.com today!

@salvor1

4 ай бұрын

@@everymandriver really? a sales reply? Is that what this forum is for? 1. I would not want a new anything. If I can't fix it, I don't want it. Example: Body modules that need to be programmed if replaced, really?, no thank you. 2. No normal used places have 1990s early 2000s stuff. After that is when all the really bizarre complexity and cheapening happened. In my zip code? Why would I limit my search area so drastically?

Start up wares the motor out faster!.Start - stop is BS!. Just cut it out with any you can.

@aspecreviews

Жыл бұрын

I have a 2002 Prius with 135,000 miles. It's probably idle-stopped 200,000 times, and still runs great.

You forgot, Earth is flat.

@everymandriver

3 ай бұрын

Thanks, Karen.

The start stop système is just to please the green religion.

I hate it.

So you basically took another dude's video and talked a bunch of nonsense over it?

@everymandriver

5 ай бұрын

Thanks Karen