I think there definitely are things we'd be better off not knowing.

@anarchogarfieldist1652

6 жыл бұрын

You must be as into this dude as I am, guy. Yours is one of the few channels I actively look forward to watching; keep up the good sauce.

@icon4000

6 жыл бұрын

Ditto. and the one that just came out is awesome :)

I said it on the last video, and I'll say it again: just because something is predictable does not make it any less meaningful. The Sun rises every morning, and it is almost BECAUSE of its predictability that we find it so meaningful. Eclipses, aging, summer: we find great meaning in predictable events. The Sun is not responsible for rising every morning, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be thankful every day that it does. Being > will.

@kieran163

2 жыл бұрын

this is really great, thank you for your addition to hank’s ideas!

@leaffinite2001

Жыл бұрын

Its strange to me the "meaning" is cared about so much. Its no less subjective or personally than beauty

@StraveTube

3 ай бұрын

Speaking in April 2024: I can confirm that an eclipse's predictability does not make it any less meaningful of an experience to me.

Me getting back from the gym: Time for another hankschannel video Hank: I just got back from the gym Me: 😦

@wobblysauce

6 жыл бұрын

+

@WhySoSquid

6 жыл бұрын

Unrelated to the video content, but would someone kindly explain this business to a n00b: +

@DefyingEternity

6 жыл бұрын

Here you go: kzread.info/dash/bejne/Ypio3MiuabXWhNY.html. It's a thing Hank came up with a couple of years ago.

@heinz091

6 жыл бұрын

+

@heather23renae

6 жыл бұрын

+

I think there are aspects of determinism that can be useful for how we look at the world. For instance, we want people to be held responsible for their actions, but we also know that people can be influenced to do bad things because of things that have happened to them in the past. And we can learn from that that if we treat people a certain way, people will be less likely to do bad things in the future. I think of us as acting out of free will but I also know that we are influenced by all kinds of things that are out of our control. So I think the most useful perspective is a balance between "nothing we choose makes any difference" and "everyone is 100% in control of everything they do."

@connierobinson1090

6 жыл бұрын

I 100% agree with this. I like it when we think about improvement rather than absolutes, and I really like it when we view wrongdoers with empathy.

@qkisninja

6 жыл бұрын

I agree, and that means that if either free will or determinism is entirely true all of the time it would not be beneficial for me to believe it. It is best to change our beliefs, or at least how literally we take our beliefs, based on justice and compassion. I have watched good, loving, admirable people do nasty things to each other based on their strong affiliation on one side or the other side of this issue. My Mother, a devout Christian and proponent of free will, is a kind, nurturing, and devoted woman but lacks empathy for people she thinks got what they deserved based on their actions. She definitely doesn't relish the thought of people failing, but she rarely leaves room for anything beyond their own actions leading to their demise. For instance, she rarely takes my sister's mental illness into account when assessing her behavior and taking offense. That position has seriously damaged their relationship over the last several years to the point that my sister avoids coming home for holidays anymore. Believing in determinism would make my Mother more compassionate. On the other end of the spectrum, my ex boyfriend, who was a staunch atheist until more recently, insists determinism is the only logical answer. He is an exceedingly intelligent, considerate, and gentle person, but about a year ago, he sexually assaulted me. He felt awful about it, apologized profusely, and hated himself for being predetermined to do it. We broke up on really good terms a few months ago and remained strong friends, but last week we had a discussion about free will versus determinism and the night he assaulted me. He was in a pretty bad head space so I was trying to be inspiring and convince him that he wasn't like that anymore, it was in the past, he could choose to be better, ect. He nearly did it again partly due to the headspace and, I suspect, partly to prove me wrong. Believing in free will would make him more just. Believing in either extreme, free will or determinism, doesn't do anyone any good if you bring either one to its logical conclusion. Fortunately, people are free from being entirely logical or entirely illogical. Just like with anything else, extremes are bad. Eating too much is just as harmful as eating too little. Taking too much medication is just as harmful as taking too little medication. Having too much fun is just as harmful as having too little fun. Having too much logic is just as harmful as having too little logic. And knowing too much is just as harmful as knowing too little. Believing in some determinism and some free will is what allows me to fight for justice, but still have compassion. If that means I have to blind myself to reality so be it.

@wschippr1

6 жыл бұрын

Sylvia Odhner Well we know for sure that we do not have a 100% control over our actions. This is something psychology figured out a long time ago.

@lilyenpointe7448

5 жыл бұрын

+

@pendlera2959

5 ай бұрын

It's also important to consider when regulating things like advertising or police interrogations.

Hank I love your humility, I didnt intend to be part of a voice that hurt your feelings. I tried to temper my words behind rationality, but I probably came on way too strong. It just really throws ME personally for a loop when I consider whether I am the thing making my choices. I think you make a great point to ask whether it really matters if we knew 100% one way or another. Because in the end if we just suddenly did know, we would have far more chaos. I agree that its far better to say "I dunno" than to assume we, as terribly flawed human people could ever know if the choices we make are our own. Sorry again, my dude, you have my utmost respect. This channel is still new to me and really helps ground this celebrity status I have of you in my head. To Hank and everyone else, I love you and DFTBA.

Reference, CPG Grey: “Necessary lies we tell society”

@wellwithmeri8222

6 жыл бұрын

Grimm wild Tim?

@repker

6 жыл бұрын

never seen a tim so far out from their normal breeding zone

@rfldss89

6 жыл бұрын

Kev I mean, hank's an educational KZreadr, as is cgp grey. Not unexpected to see a Tim run around these parts of KZread.

6 жыл бұрын

Can confirm, am also a Tim. I watch\listen ead CGP Grey and Hank\John's channels... and Kurzgesagt... and WaitButWhy... and Vsauce... and Veritasium... and exurb1a... and nerdwriter... and PBS Digital Studios... and SmarterEveryDay. I've even been on a Joe Rogan kick lately dude... Tims are a wild and free folk.

@qwertyuiopaaaaaaa7

6 жыл бұрын

Jeffery James **Veristablium

Shouting up to Hank: I'VE REALLY BEEN ENJOYING SEEING MORE UPLOADS ON THIS CHANNEL! Also, Have you seen Kurzgesagt's video on Optimistic Nihilism? I find it oddly comforting.

@mlemleh

6 жыл бұрын

MCRogueHaven +

If we knew for sure that free will didn't exist, I think the case for rehabilitation of criminals gets a lot stronger. If people are just reacting predictably to their environment, then crimes are a consequence of the situation the criminal was put in. Criminal corrections would be exactly what it sounds like: an attempt to adjust someones behavior away from their criminal tendencies. If their behavior can be altered through rehabilitation therapy, they should be free to resume their life. After all, they didn't choose to commit a crime, so there is no bad choice to punish. Just laying down punishment for crime seems like an attack on the way someone is, if they can't choose for themselves. Long term prison sentences would make more sense as a last resort for people who don't respond to the rehabilitation therapy. If someone is a big danger to others, keeping them away from other people might be the best option for society, even though it basically means punishing that someone for existing.

Money isn't real - but it has enough illusion of reality to be very useful. Free will is the same, might not be real - but it has enough illusion of reality to be very useful. PS: Before you say it, money isn't real - currency (used to represent it) is.

@aghastmeerkat9753

6 жыл бұрын

Everything is a social construct and maybe that’s okay??

@jaredsmith7258

6 жыл бұрын

Money is absolutely real, it is the supra natural manifestation of life reified and equivalent to all transactionally measurable value.

@NocturnalNick

6 жыл бұрын

Everything is not a social construct.

@sparksbet

6 жыл бұрын

Being a social construct =/= not real. Money is a social construct, that does not mean it isn't real. I agree though; something not being real doesn't mean it doesn't matter or affect us.

@Alverant

6 жыл бұрын

If money is real then show me a molecule of it. Describe its fundamental particle.

You might be interested in a Ted Talk called The Dark Side of Free Will. Title aside, the talk isn't about whether or not free will exists, but is about the *possible* social benefits of being skeptical of free will. I think it answers some of your questions in the second half of the video, and why determinism actually points to healthy prison system reform. Here's the link, I'd love to know what you think, if you have the time. Thanks!

@GageTakesTheCake

6 жыл бұрын

Here's a link: kzread.info/dash/bejne/pJqDr9OemM-TiqQ.html

@celinak5062

6 жыл бұрын

Gage Smith +

@Kelly_Z

6 жыл бұрын

Gage Smith +

I think the question of knowledge being necessary is similar to the question “Do you want to know when you’re going to die” which most people respond to with a resounding “NO” Sometimes having certain knowledge can hurt you, which is a hard thing to deal with

@only20frickinletters

6 жыл бұрын

Another example of something which would be better not to know is whether there are real differences in intelligence (whatever that means) between groups of people.

@mermaidismyname

6 жыл бұрын

see that's something I would personally answer with a yes. having spent a lot of time around grieving people I know knowing about an upcoming death vs. not is painful either way but I think knowing about death allows you to plan for it better.

@ObjectsInMotion

6 жыл бұрын

I would kill someone and live the rest of my life in prison just to know when I will die. I cannot understand people who say No.

@drakereynolds390

6 жыл бұрын

I dont want to know when. I want to know if.

@allanolley4874

6 жыл бұрын

You can get a lot less grim and point out things that are not merely not worse knowing but probably make you worse off. Like how many grains of sand are on this beach, stopping and counting them all would not only be futile but all the truth you would gain from this would clearly just make your life worse (given the way you acquire knowledge as a finite being etc.). Also there could just be knowledge that is inherently harmful, like a number so big that thinking of it would kill you, a killion. We are all better off avoiding knowing killions. Hank's idea of an idea about how human behaviour/thinking works that would disarrange our thinking/behaviour would just be another example of this.

I am watching this at 6 am while drinking my first cup of coffee, and looking after my toddlers. I most definitely feel very enlightened at this moment. Like a part of my brain woke up....

I'm glad to hear someone else thinking these things. Your voice is appreciated!

Oh and also on a personal note I wanted to say you and your brother really mean allot to me. Until you published your video on do I have ADHD, and John's video on OCD I never considered getting treatment for my combined OCD/ADHD. You, and him personally have changed my life. Your awesome keep up the good work🤗😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

I think knowing that I didn't have free will would lead me to have an extreme version of learned helplessness. If I thought my entire existence we pre-determined, I wouldn't find any need to fight against that which I had no ability to impact.

@GageTakesTheCake

6 жыл бұрын

AnalogWinter You can still impact things. If you start a political revolution, that's still a big and legitimate impact on the world. You just didn't do it freely.

@JoshuaHillerup

6 жыл бұрын

AnalogWinter I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. If you rejected free will for being an incoherent idea, there are still decisions, but you can examine those decisions in detail and possibly with something approaching objectively, instead of treating it as a magical inscrutable process.

@GageTakesTheCake

6 жыл бұрын

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by impact. Either way, you can still be driven to make changes, you just didn't truly choose to change, you were driven to by external and internal forces. Either way, it manifests exactly the same. It would feel just as free to you.

@GageTakesTheCake

6 жыл бұрын

It's like, looking at the world through a systemic, sociological lens as opposed to a more liberal understanding of free will

@JoshuaHillerup

6 жыл бұрын

Gage Smith sure, you still chose it. It just means you choose something because you had reasons to do so, instead of because of a metaphorical die roll.

This. This is a good video. Any video that makes me pause and think about the definition of life and why we do anything is a great one. Especially one that presents questions and considers them. Good work, Hank! You’re doing something :)

I used to think that truth was the only perspective that mattered. It was binary to me; there was only fact and fiction. But in reality, there's so much more in between. I was only able to come to this realization after a year of intensive group therapy for 9 hours a week. Everyone has their own truths. And honestly, being mentally healthy and happy is way more important than being right.

@LevviTalk

6 жыл бұрын

Sarah Acree preach

@roceb5009

6 жыл бұрын

I would submit that the truth still matters, it's just that the more sure you are that you know what the truth is, the more open you should be to arguments that disagree with that truth, and embrace the possibility that you are wrong. Because the things that matter the most tend to be the most complex.

@allanolley4874

6 жыл бұрын

Well as long as the only truths are not our own truths. Otherwise it won''t be true for everyone that everyone has their own truths.

@izzikat9252

5 жыл бұрын

Perception and truth have a very strange relationship when you realize how easily our senses and sensibilities can direct our attention. For a concrete example, try living just one day without one of the senses you usually rely on. Blindfolded if you're used to sight, earplugs if you're used to hearing, or socks on your hands if you are somehow navigating this world without both sight/sound. Even after a few hours, the very shape of your reality and thoughts will shift DRASTICALLY. Extrapolate this logic to lifetimes of chemical and experiential differences between other humans and entities in this world and you begin to have an idea of how easily "truth" becomes a verrry abstract communication attempt because our reference points must be established on so many foundational assumptions to have the same meaning. Our ability to communicate is still mind bogglingly rudimentary.

Sense humans seem to intrinsically like knowing things, this seems kind of tied in with the question of "when is it ok to do a bad thing to make a good thing happen"

As long as we feel like we are making decisions, we may as well be making decisions, regardless of if we actually are.

I found this really interesting as I'm currently in the planning stages of writing a story that explores similar themes. It's like you knew this was on my mind the past few days, Hank!

To me, knowing there is (almost) no free will helps me to have more compassion for others. Ultimately the struggle they are experiencing is a consequence of the inescapable past circumstances they were in or the choices they made as a logic response. I can understand people more easy when I take that in mind. So sometimes it can even help me :)

Knowing truth is pretty well built directly into my “goodness” function as a positive.

I couldn't have put it better: "I don't care". That's it. Thanks.

You are absolutely right. Ultimately we, as human beings, want to be happy while also avoiding pain and uncertainty. I think when we choose to ignore certain questions such as the existence of free will we are doing so because we don't want to ruin our sense of agency. We are (supposedly) intelligent beings so we look for things that won't hurt us or make us feel powerless (as the notion that we are being controlled by our circumstances usually does). I believe I have free will because I get to wake up in the morning and decide whether I want to get up or stay in bed and I can also choose whether I want to watch this video or ignore it, and I haven't so to me that's free will. If I am being controlled that doesn't really affect my sense of self because I still believe that I have the power to choose what to do and to me that also seems to be more important than living as though I have no control over anything that happens in my life. If we were to live as if we didn't have to make our own choices we wouldn't know what being responsible or trustworthy is because those things come with the knowledge that we will be able to act in a certain way when needed. So yeah, I agree that we are better off believing in our free will to be whoever we want to be.

"Is all knowledge necessary?" I love it. Good question.

I agree with you, Hank. Ultimately, it’s a question whose answer would have no meaning. If it’s true, you can’t make a free choice about whether you’re going to believe it or not. You were inevitably going to think what you think. If it’s false, then whether you believe it or not is up to you. Arguing about free will doesn’t get us much of anywhere.

These two videos really resonated with me Hank. I study physics so I am very interested in finding out How Things Are but philosophical questions like this are often ones that I’d rather be intentionally ignorant of for my own peace of mind, and because I personally don’t find them to be very useful questions

You do so much good Hank. I appreciate you.

I appreciate the way this video is looking into how you think. I think all knowledge isn't always good. My husband refuses to get tested to see if he is at risk for Alzheimer's disease (which runs thick in his family) because he doesn't want it to change how he is now.

You know, a lot of stuff has happened around me recently that has been pointing me in the direction of philosophical wondering. The vlogbrothers video and this video have only hurdled me further into my exploration of existential questions. Woohoo! I find that the more I learn about different theories the less I feel like I need concrete answers. I'm at a stage in my life where I want to learn about the possible answers, but I'm content with not knowing anything for certain. It gives me comfort.

as someone whose entire life is being overwhelmed by possible scenarios of every decision (hello, anxiety), i find it odd that people are like "maybe i don't have free will". i sometimes point out to my friends that my mental illness makes me a huge narcissist, because i tend to think that every thought and decision i have comes with great consequences, even if it does not

I enjoy thinking i dont have free will. It helps me forgive other people and myself. It also helps me relax sometimes if i can believe the future is mapped out.

I believe some things may remain ‘mysteries’ to an individual unless and until that person is equipped to deal with them. This is manifested in society by differing belief systems.

I think there I times where I could feel it comforting if everything is predetermined. Most of the time I feel like, "life is hard, but if I'm unhappy with that I can change it" But sometimes it's nice to feel like, "the world sucks, it's not my fault, and I'm not responsible to fix it"

I am a determinist when trying to understand why people ended up doing what they did and being what they were. I am an existentialist when attempting to live a better life for myself. And lastly, when I can't move on fro. a terrible decision I made in the past, can't get rid of the guilt and pain, I attempt to revert to deteeminism. They are both useful ideas to consider. It isn't about finding The Truth but thinking about ideas that you can use in life.

I honestly don't understand why people care so much about this. To me, it seems impossible to know whether or not we have free will. And, even if we don't, we're obviously not going to act any differently. Like Hank said, "I guess anarchy then?" Isn't gonna happen, we are always going to act as if we have free will. SO WHO CARES I do love the question about whether there's knowledge we maybe shouldn't have. I can't know, because I don't know everything, so I don't know if my life would be worse if I did. But I WANT to know everything. I like the idea of knowing whether or not we have free will. But, I'm atheist. And I feel like my reasons for not being concerned about not having free will are the same as my reasons for not caring if there's an afterlife or if there is an ordained purpose to my life. It doesn't affect the way I live. I am always going to act and think in a way that reflects my values, and I don't think not having free will changes that. signed, an extremely intellectually curious person who just finds the free will question to be a waste of time

@illyriawashburne

6 жыл бұрын

PinkysaurusRawr I think "I guess anarchy then" is a little disingenuous. Obviously not anarchy then cuz, um, that's not what is happening so this society was obviously predetermined and humanity as a whole has figured out that even if we have no free will, we kind of have the responsibility to pursue happiness for ourselves and others anyway. And the best way to do that is too discourage negative action and encourage positive action. Societal pressure does have an impact of your brain's thought process, whether or not you have a will capable of altering that thought process is irrelevant.

@elinobenjamin

6 жыл бұрын

Wait you literally missed the point of this follow-up video

@SECONDQUEST

6 жыл бұрын

PinkysaurusRawr Just because you can't know something for sure doesn't mean that it can't be fun to talk about and think about. Straight up, if you can't understand that then you should take a good look at yourself.

@SECONDQUEST

6 жыл бұрын

Elino Villegas Yeah he did

@hollynesbitt8173

6 жыл бұрын

To be honest, it's more interesting from a mental health viewpoint, in relation to how mental illness can affect out conscious mind's ability to make free decisions. It's the old 'am I always the captain of my own ship?' question.

I like how Hitchens put it: *_Of course we have free will. We have not choice but to._* It's flippant, but also surprisingly insightful.

That's is a really good question Hank and I feel like I've been trying to find my answer to it for a while now.

I just wanted to say thank you for making more content lately Hank! so many of my favourite youtubers have decreased the amount of content they put on this platform, and while I understand why its really disheartening to see, so to get more content then normal from you feels like a true gift so thank you Hank very much for continuing to create! It brings me and many others a tremendous amount of joy!

I'm reading Snow Crash right now and this video is surprisingly relatable to its narrative.

I think it's important to be able to hold "I believe this" and "I know this to be true" as separate and not necessarily aligned, and this is one of the big questions where that matters. I think it's impossible for humans to experience the world as if we didn't have free will: a sense of free decision-making is part of what it feels like to be conscious. But to believe that that is therefore the real mechanics of our minds makes it difficult to have compassion for other people in their failures. If I insist that everyone else has real free will, it becomes hard to forgive someone for snapping at me because they had a bad day, or were hungry, or had a headache. I think we also make better decisions about how to live when we think of ourselves in the present as having agency, but our past and future selves as deterministic entities. That's how we do things like forgive ourselves for having made mistakes, and decide to set ourselves up to succeed in the future. You can act on those beliefs because they work, and still hold the knowledge that they don't reflect reality in any clear or comfortable way. I think being able to know something and not believe it is essential for pursuing deep mechanical knowledge of the world.

Good for you!, yes, the question has to have a useful answer, and meaningful. We make choices against our own interests. This may help

I think the more uncomfortable a particular piece of information is to us the more important it is and the more important it is to fully understand every nuance of its implications. This particular piece of knowledge is awfully liberating when you think about it. Human exceptionalism is a psychological burden that causes us lots of harm. Understanding our true character and the humbleness of it is really very useful.

Even if all my choices are predetermined, I don't know what they are until I make them. Whether I read every word in a novel or skip to the last page doesn't change how the story will end, but it will change how I feel about it.

I actually really do love this question. It is really sweet, and brings up a rather old discussion about the limits of human consciousness. There is an old question about assumptions in philosophy that basically has to just be ignored. This question is basically about whether logic is actually real or not. There are tons of reasons and arguments (ironically ones based on logic) that lead to conclusion that logic is simply a result of how human brains process information and therefore limited to human experience of the world not actually what the world is. Its the basis for most Christian creeds feeling the importance on "mystery" as well as modern philosophical question. However, the vast majority of the time we have to just ignore it. Like we cannot possibly understand more than we are physically capable of understanding so who cares if logic is limited to our physical senses, we still can use it to find cool and interesting things out about our world.

Gonna take your point on how if we knew for definite that predetermination is reality that that knowledge would be negative and turn that into a positive: Life is a story. There's a chance it's a story that has already been written. Yet when I read a story I know that it has been predetermined. The enjoyment of it comes from the journey taken throughout, observing the choices made, reading the changes & feeling engaged with the characters. I personally believe all knowledge is useful. Some is more useful than others. Some knowledge some people may be too young to handle and some may never be able to handle it. This particular piece of knowledge just needs a good way of looking at it. Our reality means we must approach life with the illusion of choice and consequence. And just like with many of life's illusions, we must work within those confines, ignoring some parts of reality. (so much re-writing and choices made...or were there?)

I feel like I can connect with a lot of what you said, as someone who is studying neuroscience but who also has strong humanist values. I learn things about the brain on a day to day basis that break down everything that I experience in simple, molecular or biological terms, yet when I come out of a lab or a classroom, I still choose to put all of that to the side because it would prevent me from being happy as a person on a day to day basis. I believe in the strength of mankind, I believe in love, I believe that humans are inexplicable and, even though I am a scientist, I believe that there are things science can't (or shouldn't?) try to explain. I don't think that it's better to NOT know, but I think it's better to know but still be able to live a normal life, ignoring it in some sense... Obviously, there might some truths so large that we would not be able to ignore them, but I haven't come across one yet and I'm hoping that continues for a while :) Thank you for your thoughts and for getting us to think and discuss!

We do know that the environment and the behavior of others have a significant effect on our actions. So at best we have semi-free-will - but I think it’s valuable to flip that knowledge on it’s head. Knowing how easy it can be to influence others we have a moral imperative to act towards others in ways that allow them to be the best version of themselves. So for me accepting a certain lack of free will in general allows me to accept and treat others better. Also I can move past when I was being a jerk because I was hangry and next time plan to feed the “me machine” better so it can act nicer in the future.

I definitely understood what you were getting at the first time I saw the video! The point wasn't supposed to be nitpicked on one specific comment or the validity of those possible things, but just that sometimes being willfully ignorant of things that could harm us is an okay thing. Knowing that it's possible that we don't actually have free will doesn't actually help me in life, so it's not gonna hurt me or others to pretend like I don't know this possible fact. Which can be applied to other things in life, but obviously being wilfully ignorant isn't something you should do for just any ole thing you don't like. It's gotta be for a better purpose. Big picture, people! Big picture!

I think determinism is like the skeleton underneath our choices. There's a predisposed rigidity that both limits and empowers us. There clearly is a lot of adaptability to the human mind too. Yet humans have some control over what environments they experience on a regular basis, especially as an adult. Twins raised apart end up more similar than their step siblings that they were raised with. Predictability sorta does and doesn't imply determinism because people can make long term choices, especially if they are predisposed to making and sticking to long term choices.

Great topic, Hank. I think you are right on the money, except for one thing - You reach the sensible conclusion that realising there is no freewill, doesn't affect the need to make decisions. However, choosing to continue to make decisions is not ignoring that knowledge, it just means that you understand it. Ignoring It appears to be intelligent because, having come to the light bulb moment, nothing has changed - you still have to act as if freewill is real. So we don't need the knowledge in the first place. Whilst that may be generally true, it isn't in one very important way that is likely to have a positive impact on your future decisions. A corollary of the deterministic understanding of freewill is the realisation that your decisions are deterministically chosen by the deterministic path your life has taken and that those that have taken a different path (everyone else) will deterministically make different decisions. The result is that you will tend to be more humble about your own decisions and more accepting, and perhaps curious, of other people's decisions. It might even make you curious about how the seemingly random path of your own life has influenced your own decisions. I have often pondered the question - What is the root of all evil? (A silly but instructive question). Over the years, my answers have followed a progression which builds on the previous answer. It started with money and moved to power because money (or the impression of wealth ) can be a vehicle towards gaining control over other people's behaviour to support one's own position. Recently, it is has moved on to believing that it is evil to believe that I am right and other people's behaviour should bend according to that belief, despite the lack of a scientific basis to support it. On analysis this is an attempt to build the world in one's own image and is at the heart of much hatred and conflict. The deterministic attitude towards freewill puts such attitudes in stark relief. (PS: I don't believe in evil, it is just a convenient tool for getting the message across) By this logic, the belief you have expressed is one of the most important things you can believe. Don't ignore it.

The way I see it, all true knowledge opens up opportunities that we did not have before, which we do not (and can not?) know before attaining it. These opportunities will inevitably have consequences that are both beneficial and detrimental to to people, regardless of personal viewpoint. All knowledge is not necessary only if pursuing all opportunities is not necessary to you.

I had that very discussion with a friend of mine decades back. It's well described in this line of the lyrics to one song I always forget the title of: "Don't open your eyes, you won't like what you see. The blind have been blessed with security." Basically: It's probably easier to live a happy life if you know less. You can be more content when you don't know it could be better. BUT: We know it can be better! Our history shows improvement! And as we don't know if there will be some knowledge that will ultimately only lead to a worse quality of life, we should always strive to improve our pool of knowledge. Yes, sometimes it hurts to know. But if we stop we can't improve further. To decrease worldsuck is to improve, to know more, do better. In the case of free will btw it's completely obvious. Knowing for certain will only ever be a good thing: Either we have free will and from our human perspective that's the best we can hope for as we are all probably willfully ignoring that we don't. If we don't have free will, there was nothing we could have done to prevent finding it out. It will have been inevitable. And anything after (even if it means mankind would fall into chaos) will have been as well (I'd call it a good thing, as we can't prevent it and it basically absolves us of all consequences (that we still have to deal with, but it's not our "fault")).

Congrats on keeping/getting fit. Keep it up! Personally I prefer to do sports like martial arts or (soon to start) LARP (life action role play), than to go to the gym. It motivates me in more ways, because I learn a skill while keeping fit. Also I know other people want me to be there, while gym is more of a solitary activity, in my experience. Both that and gym is good for your health of course and the gym has advantages too (like being open all the time)

I agree! If I don't have any free will and all my choices are predetermined then what is the point of me actually trying? But then if I stop trying that still wouldn't be my choice! I am happy not knowing either way.

I like the existential nihilistic aproach here: free will is a very useful construct but ultimately its importance is judged solely by you and you can khm choose (examine what your brain would prefer more) if you want to spend your time finding the Truth or making others happy. Value is a human construct and making other people happy is pretty valuable to me.

Reminds me of the dialogue "ignorance is bliss".

In regards to knowing whether or not our decisions are predetermined wouldn't really matter because we can't see the future. Maybe the universe has already been set up in a way that means you'll have pizza for dinner on July 9th, 2026, but since there's no way for you to know that before it happens, does it really make a difference if it was predetermined?

@keeperofthekeys84

6 жыл бұрын

Jaeric: But if you find out it is all predetermined, then your attitude becomes 'hmm I wonder what will happen to me next' rather than 'I am going to do x, y, and z with my life'. You go from being an active driver of your life, to a passive experiencer. And this does seem to change, if nothing else, your own experience of your predetermined life. So there is a difference.

@jaeric

6 жыл бұрын

If everything is predetermined, knowing about it wouldn't make it a passive experience. Not unless it was predetermined that you lay around in a vegetative state. If it's predetermined that Hank was going to go to the gym today, then it was also predetermined that he would have to think about going and then actually go.

@roceb5009

6 жыл бұрын

Keeper of the Keys but you are part of that deterministic universe. Life isn't something that happens to you, it's a process that you are a part of. Saying that the life happens to you is like saying that catching a rabbit is something that happens to a wolf. The wolf has insticts, and doesn't get to choose whether or not to be a predator. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have to chase the rabbit if it doesn't want to starve, it just means that it doesn't want to starve.

Oh there we go. Hank on hankschannel.

@lusewa4939

6 жыл бұрын

he looks sweaty

My husband: "is that peanut butter face guy?" Me: "that's his brother"

Love the vlogbro video and this one. I think about this a lot. All the experiments that can predict what we will chose and how we can't predict what we will say unless we really stop and think about each word we say. I think I agree with you that it is better not to know...just like if we are living in a "holographic" universe, either way it doesn't matter. Live & be happy!

I love the idea of someone getting into hankschannel in the past week or so, and assuming vlogbrothers is a side project!

So much Hank in a day, I feel spoiled 😁🙌 I'm sorry you felt like you had to come back and explain yourself, and hurt (?) by the tone some people adopted on the other video. I thought you made yourself very clear and it was an interesting hypothetical philosophical proposition. You don't have to present every little thought in every possible light to make a good point.

No free will, just the very convincing illusion of it-and that's good enough.

Rule number one for allowing myself to communicate on the internet: would I say this to a friend who had this opinion/point of view/idea? It helps me to remember to be a human online.

This makes me think about the ethical dilemma in medicine of disclosing a diagnosis to someone who doesn't want to know if it's a poor prognosis (or more frequently in case presentations, that their family doesn't want them to know.) There is the reality of the disease and the prognosis and the likely course. The fear, though, is that knowing that information will make their quality of life worse, or that having a negative outlook will hasten progression. In the same way that we approach this, I think we can approach determinism. What is the overall goal? Is it quality of life? Do we want to preserve a certain perceived reality and have the experiences that come with that? Is it the importance of knowledge? Do we want to build experience around new knowledge of reality? In the example of a diagnosis, would disclosure allow the patient to orchestrate a meaningful death or fill them with a fighting spirit to attempt whatever options available? So on an individual level, I completely am on board with willful ignorance OR internalizing determinism. Just what are your values? On a humanity level- it's too big for me to be decisive about. I flip back and forth too quickly. There is the opportunity to make changes, like the prison reform discussed in a TED talk referenced in a different comment. Then there is also humanity's tendency to panic. There are subsets of people that absolutely would take that knowledge and use it positively going forward, but there are also subsets of people that would very much not.

i have also tackled this question, and i have concluded for myself that better understanding of truth always has value, and in this particular case, I will try and explain my view, as it might help you: If we understood that the universe is purely deterministic, we could conceive of a picture of reality - as a many-dimentional object which encompasses all time and space, all action, and all other dimensions we dont yet understand. Our personal pieces of that object, of that gigantic piece of art, are as integral to the whole as any other. Our perception of free will is not an illusion, it's a function of the greater piece. Our actions, however small and seemingly random, are brush strokes in an unimaginably vast painting, which would render the painting unfinished if they were discarded or considered unimportant. If we had to understand that the universe is deterministic, we might understand ourselves less as individuals and moreso as pieces of the same stuff, of the same captial-T Thing. We could revel in finding out what parts we have to play and what we are meant to accomplish not only as individual pieces but as a larger whole.

I've always viewed life as a fast moving river and I'm in the middle of it. The currents are going somewhere and I can't do much about it in the macro. But I can make small decisions here and there to maybe avoid a rock or something. And that feels like a huge thing in the micro. So I focus on my little things and stay larger ignorant of the currents flow, despite being inextricably caught up in it.

Whether it's determined or not doesn't affect anything. In the moment it is your choice that matters. It is only from a future or timeless point of view that it affects us at all. And, lol, if course even if determined you're responsible for what you do. It's not about punishing your decision, it's about keeping people safe.

Good job for you for working out! :)

It’s so natural for us thinky people to feel and believe that more knowledge is better, but I think that counterintuitively for day-to-day functioning less knowledge can be better about certain things. Like how we say always tell the truth, but if we are engaging in a social situation where the blunt truth may hurt someone then for the sake of happiness and positive functioning we say something different or we refrain from saying things. Also, as a second point in that illustration, maybe for that person, less knowledge (of our opinion) was better, because maybe the fact of our opinion is irrelevant or will simply do more unnecessary harm than good. The question we have to ask is, “Do we want to know all of the unadulterated truth or do we want to be happy doing humany stuff daily?” because there is a good chance both goals cannot simultaneously come to fruition for our species as we know it, and if that’s the case we have to decide which is more important; ultimate knowledge and awareness or functioning happily? I feel like this isn’t as eloquent as I’d like, but the point is while not openly declaring it as fact, I find there is a strong argument for the benefit of moderation of knowledge.

Holding people accountable for their choices and actions is a deterministic factor that mostly affects choices positively.

Veritasium and vsauce did a good colab talking about randomness the increasing entropy in the universe and whether or not everything can be predetermined.

Solid video. There are some things I don't want to know. Knowledge can do harm. Side note: the question of whether knowing the truth is good/free will makes me think of the Licanius Trilogy

I think this talk of knowledge presumes that there is some perfect understanding of the world that we are picking up pieces of, a theory that I am skeptical of. Most of my lived experience suggests truth is more flexible than we might hope.

Maybe it's almost an issue of how we define "free will". So, yes, we have the ability to make decisions. But our decisions are predictable in a pattern at a certain point (even if we can't predict those patterns with current algorithms).

This is everything I was thinking while watching your original video.

In all honesty, to me, Free will is a beautiful example of a Newton’s Flaming Lazer Sword.

We make decisions, and the way we make decisions and why we make them is determined... We should punish incorrect decisions, but they had no choice but to take it. We can only try to make them not make incorrect decisions.

Hank. It's 2.30 in the morning for me and my brain is too tired to process all of this intellectual discussion. I'll update this in the morning when I can actually string together coherent thoughts and opinions on this. Super interesting topic though! I really enjoyed this video and your video on vlogbrothers.

@MoonFrog17

6 жыл бұрын

It's gonna be your fault if this sends me into an existential crisis and I can't get to sleep. (I'm kidding it's all on me)

I don't care that much about philosophical free will, but I care a TON about what factors in people's lives lead them towards making which decisions. What is the impact of mental health on financial responsibility? What is the impact of the clothes I wear on how well I code? These questions feel a lot like free will questions, but they dive deep into actual human lives with real outcomes, and possibly even point towards better ways to act and structure ourselves.

This is all so interesting. I’m overwhelmed. 🤔

I love listening to Hank talk

My lived experience feels totally free and un-determined, and whether or not that feeling is due to the universe being predetermined to make me feel that way is a question that I'm not particularly interested in looking into. Pretty sure I'm just rewording Hank's opinion here.

@mlemleh

6 жыл бұрын

Robert Baillargeon Yes, but it’s a good rewording. Of course the question then becomes: Is the lack of wanting to disprove this theory (or lived experience) of free will just a willingness to live in ignorant bliss? Can we really consider ourselves scientists if we are unwilling to test this hypothesis? I think there are a lot of things I’d rather not know (like the exact time date and manner of my death).

@wschippr1

6 жыл бұрын

Robert Baillargeon I disagree to an extent. I feel like I have made some choices, but as I have a mood disorder there is definite moments where I was doing something and as I was doing I knew I shouldn't be doing it.

this had been bothering me for so long, about determinism and its logical end. Now I kind of feel like it's okay to ignore the whole thing, so thanks for this video

I sometimes find myself spiraling to the same question of free will!

It's hard to say whether I'd regret knowing the truth about something. If I had to guess, I'd probably always want to know. No shame in not wanting to know either, if it optimizes happiness. If it's important enough to other people, you'll likely learn about it anyway.

I find determinism and every other aspect of my conception of the universe comforting because of my belonging to this amazing crazy universe. The fact that my destiny is deterministic doesn’t diminish my appreciation for the experience of life! Poetic Naturalism!

I think it's better to know everything. Let's say there is no free will. That doesn't change the way you make decisions because your ultimate goal is to be happy and make your family happy. Everyone will act towards their personal goal.

The fact that a third of the people (approximately) who have watched the vlogbrothers video came here to watch this video as well shows how loyal nerd fighters are and I love it.

My way of internalizing free will is that it is much smaller than I think it is, so I should take some measures to make myself accountable, so I do my lab work instead of watching youtube videos at work all day and then feel horrible about myself. There are biases and social constructs that binds us all, and I choose to look at those things head on and try to see to what degree my choices are pulling me to one thing or the other. Even if some of those social constructs define me, make me feel comfortable and give me some privilege, are they "right"? Could I be a better person (more generous and kind to others) if I step out from this belief into the discomfort of the opposite opinion and try to see where they are coming from? It is my midway into determinism, I had this concept presented to me with some neuroscience evidence, but something to my core pushes me away from taking it completely, determinists would say that I was meant to think this way anyway and not be upset about it

In a class I took in college we had a really interesting discussion about whether or not ever developing nuclear weapons was a mistake, and that reminds me a lot of this. A lot of people in my class were of the opinion that nuclear weapons are so harmful that scientist were wrong to ever do the research that created them and I found that surprising.

Two very interesting questions that are fairly related. Free will is most certainly related to knowledge in that free will would require a person to violate cause and effect. The thing is that free will would require some sort of things, which back in the days of ol' was the "spirit," to interact with the person without itself being affected by anything. Which can't happen since it would interact with the person. And even if this were true, then knowledge would be really hard to dispute as existing. A central tenet of both philosophy and science is that of cause and effect. We know how various particles interact with each other and each interaction leads to an outcome. Know the interaction, know the outcome. But if free will were to exist then all the interactions that occur in your brain would be pointless as they would not necessarily lead to any particular outcome since the "spirit" could guide it in whatever way it sees fit. The would mean that there is some force that can violate cause and effect, so when anything occurs there's little to support any particular cause as being responsible for the event. As for weather all knowledge is necessary, the knowledge itself is unlikely to cause negative things. I mean most people know of hundreds of ways to hurt one another, but for the most part they don't. This is more an issue of values. The knowledge that free will does not exist will not stop the pain suffered from stepping on a lego to stop, and both the avoidance of pain the acquisition of happiness tend to be the greatest drivers of people. I think in the end, a beneficial thought to consider is that of Kierkegaard, to take a leap toward the religious. It would be hardly surprise to find that a great portion of the people here consider themselves atheists, so the question becomes what has replaced god? This seems like a more relatable question to the problem at hand as it asks what do you consider an absolute from which all your other beliefs can arise from.

I think that all truths are worth knowing. It's inevitable that some will hurt us in the short term, but I believe that, if we digest and harness such truths well, it will benefit us in the long run. There are lots of truths that have hurt us to know, but we benefitted from them because we were able to either conquer that issue or better deal with an issue that explained why we were having other issues. There are also, perhaps, truths that have hurt us because of how we ultimately used them. That's on whoever misused that, not the truth. Facts are neutral. They don't seek to hurt us. Many have helped us, and I think that, the better we understand our world and learn how to navigate and control it to our benefit, the more well equipped we will be to accept more ugly truths. Perspective always helps, as well. Attitude. Seeing things from the right perspective aids in digesting information well.

It's the same with solipsism for me. I have to actively stop myself from thinking about it or I will start to panic.

If you know about the influences of your past, perhaps how they can affect your decisions, do you become more responsible for your choices? Is there ever a bad time for having more, more accurate, and more timely information about the factors on which your decisions rely ?

Lack of free will have also a positve aspect mainly: Every action you take influences you in a determnistic manner, so take that into consideration and do not make some stupid mistake, because you can not magically free-will it later making correct decision with no fundation. (I used a free-will as a verb)

Ad that played at end of video started with “it’s said that we make 35,000 decisions a day…”. So I laughed. It was out of my control.

In answer to the question you ask at the end, I would say the answer is “Yes, there are certain things individuals are better off not knowing, at least temporarily... provided that we cannot know EVERYTHING.” If, however, it would be possible to be omniscient, that would be preferable to being selectively (or randomly) ignorant. Consider as examples all of the wonderful experiences and encounters one may have even actively avoided due to some piece of information without context. If I could have somehow known ahead of time how difficult summitting a mountain is before climbing it, I would also likely never know THAT IT IS TOTALLY WORTH IT!!! But since human beings are enriched in proportion as they love (and are loved), and love depends on knowledge (since one cannot love what one does not know), it follows that to be omniscient (and being surrounded by other omniscients) would entail possessing at least the groundwork for being as enriched as one could possibly be. Any ignorance, on the other hand, would diminish potential enrichment. Nevertheless, until omniscience is possible, people are better off being ignorant of certain truths when they cannot also have the full context of those truths because we almost NEVER make the best choices with de-contextualized information.

well if we know definitely that there is total determinism we better also know everything there is BUT! i personally agree with you that i personally don't want to know since to me it is like a kind of destiny but like we know from all heroic game characters a destiny doesn't mean that a character doesn't choose