Couldn't figure out a visual for this video, so enjoy watching me work on some brainstorming before we dive into a new legendary creature's deck! On a relevant note: discussion should be civil and empathetic towards the other side. If you are pro-proxy, or anti-proxy, that's fine. I just want to have this conversation reach a point where we see the needle move somewhat towards resolution. Be excellent to one another, and have a great new year!

@Mr_B_251

6 ай бұрын

I honestly don't ever see resolution in sight... because the proxy discussion, at its core, is a discussion about values, beliefs, and how behaviors are motivated. It might be an oversimplification... but the proxy discussion is almost the same as "coke or pepsi" , "socks and sandals" , and "pineapple on pizza." The people who are anti are so because of something intrinsic they value; and the people who are pro are so because of something different intrinsically they value. The most important part, however, is to come to grips that people have the right to disagree and shouldn't try to FORCE their beliefs on the other.

I'm personally pro proxy. I've been in the hobby for around 15 years and have the collection that comes with it. My preference is cEDH and the cost for newer players is an impossible pill to swallow and reasonably so. I encourage people at my LGS to proxy up because I want nothing more that to just play the game. An issue I have encountered recently is my LGS obtaining WOTC "Premium Status", meaning no poxies, full stop. I completely understand this in sanctioned events where there is something to be won however this new premium status has come mostly off the back of the "casual" EDH crowd as they are roughly half, if not more, of the players signing in for games on a weekly basis. Now casual players, playing a casual format at my LGS have to sign in to the WOTC app on game nights, thus making it a sanctioned event (with nothing to be won, although signing in provides more numbers, meaning more prize support for the other formats). I think as EDH being a casual and social format, the ever important rule #0 needs to be emphasized more. As you aptly put, the lack of social skills, can make this difficult especially when coming to a consensus on power level. In conclusion, I just want to play my blinged out Bluefarm brew(among others) against decks of the same power level and have fun and balanced games.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

Why endorse players to proxy rather than buy from the LGS that’s letting you play there? Some cards don’t apply, of course. My LGS doesn’t sell reserved list cards as they save them for a cushion, so in that case, ok. Personally though, I try and support them as much as possible. I also don’t know what new players are looking for proxies. Truly new players are likely using a pile of accumulated chaff and precons, right? It takes a bit of play to see how an expensive staple will benefit you, at which point, are you new? And I can’t imagine anyone being new but looking at cEDH. Unless we mean “new to cEDH”. Like.. chain of vapor does what??! lol! If someone is established enough to understand that power of these cards and the kind of meta that cEDH is, they’re established enough to know that cEDH is generally ok with proxies. Definitely need to be careful about that, though, as there are proxy free cEDH tournies and that will only grow overtime as the format becomes more adopted and official. I only ever recommend proxies when I’m tired of watching folks move cards around different decks.

@hairybeast20

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian my LGS only sells standard/pioneer relevant singles and they aren't "letting" us play, we are paying entrance fees not that makes me entitled to anything. By new I guess I mean new relatively speaking to myself in the sense that what I paid (playset of LEDs for $100 for example) for cards vs what they are worth now. Especially in today's economy, people can't afford to fork out out for the marginal improvements most cards provide (wheel of fortune over say windfall,Mox Diamond over chrome mox etc), which over 100 cards makes a huge difference. At the end of the day i just want to play a silly card game and I understand my LGS is a business so I don't complain there because that would be unreasonable. I'm also in Australia so cEDH events are non-existent.

I think Proxies should look like a proxy, as long as that's the case, we need proxies if we want to play the game at the same level as other people. If chess pieces cost different prices, we wouldn't stop playing them in a game, we'd just make our own pieces.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

Do we? Why not play at a table that plays at a power level appropriate to your budget? Additionally, price isn’t a one for one with power. They’re related but absolutely not the same.

@hakanbrakankrakan

5 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian What if I want to use and experience interactions produced by more expensive cards? Or have a really cool deck with a few key missing pieces out of my reach? There is no negative to proxies that are clearly communicated as such

Counterfeits are always bad, no argument. Proxies are 100% okay with me. I just want to play Commander. I get that cards have value. I've been playing for a long time so I have a pretty good collection, but I want people to be able to play what they want to play. I've heard some folks say things like "What if someone proxies a super powerful deck full of (normally) expensive cards?" In that case, the issue isn't with the proxies; the issue is with the power level of the deck. If I'm playing mid-power casual, I don't want people playing proxied (or not) Mana Crypt or Cradle not because it's proxied but because it's too powerful for the game/the table. Conversely, if I'm running one of my 8/9/10 power level decks, I expect Crypt, etc., and I really don't care if it's real or proxied. For what it's worth, I personally will not play with proxied cards (unless I'm testing a new deck). It just doesn't feel right to me. But, as you rightly say, I don't want to play against someone's bank account. EDIT: Also, love that you're building a Zoyowa deck.

Im "pretty sure" I have some counterfits (lots and growing). The only purpose is to play, the vendor does *not* want them to be sold as the real thing, so they'll never look good enough to sell Edit: The main deck that uses them is my cEDH deck, which I use at my LGS for a reward-less cEDH night, and with friends ofc (they know what they are)

Reasons to proxy: 1. Playtesting a card before you buy 2. Protecting your cards, cards are expensive decks stolen, keeping the physical card in a safe place and taking the proxy to caual lgs play protects the cards 3. Your regular play group is fine with it. Bonus: you need some extra cash so you sell a high dollar staple the proxy can remind you to rebuy it when you have the funds or the price drops . Side note: i love deck building and have limited storage space and funds so i keep 1 copy of any card going into multiple decks in a binder at home and use proxies for play it saves moving cards between decks

I don’t think there IS a solution that will satisfy everyone… For people who are anti-proxy (like myself) we’re always being forced to “defend” it. It’s hard to defend sometimes because for me, it just doesn’t “feel right” to do. And the common argument of “I want to play you not your wallet” is not going to overcome something not “feeling right” about doing it. The main issue I feel is the insistence by either side about whether we should “expect” people to proxy cards. It is not up to me to dictate how someone is going to feel when they see a card being proxied on the table. Being cold and belligerent “just deal with it” or “just proxy it” doesn’t work for everyone because it doesn’t “feel right.” Psychology and brain wiring is not easy to overcome. Long story short… I expect that if you’re sitting down from me that we both have decks of original legal cards. If you’re going to proxy, it is on you to make sure everyone else is fine with it. Don’t assume that everyone is okay with it. And don’t expect everyone to defend why they are not… not every feeling can be rationalized.

No problem with ink and paper. Proxy. Counterfeits. I’m fine with both. I used to play for free online. Hasbro isn’t a company I will support at ridiculous prices. A card costs them cents not dollars to produce. A deck should never cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. I reject that completely.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

So you seemingly enjoy their product but are also ok to never financially support them? A bit shitty, but alright. It’s not like the secondary market, where most EDH purchases happen, has sod all to do with WotC.

@philistineau

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian Exactly. I don't buy into the whole "this piece of cardboard with ink is worth $150." I've bought some commander decks and sent WOTC money for those, specifically the W40K decks. If I'm playing casually a few times a year (I'm not sure I even played in 2023), why the hell would I spend a mortgage payment on decks to play with???

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@philistineau that you don't think cards have value doesn't make it so- there are plenty of folks with tons of value in cards. Not those who only play proxy, of course. Even thinking of the regular player, there's a value in the enjoyment gained from the hobby. Lack of engagement with a hobby doesn't mean the IP has no value. Imagine applying this line of though to any other product. It's ridiculous.

Got markov proxy since I’m into vampire. But 150$ legit is to much for one card.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

Everyone’s threshold for what is a good value is different. This is not an objective statement.

Imo proxies are 100% ok, proxy your commander, proxy a few expensive cards you need, proxy your whole deck. As long as you bring a deck of a similar powerlevel everything is fine, no matter if you're using proxies or not. The problem is when you bring a much stronger deck, but then the issue is not the proxies, cause you would still be stomping over everyone else without the proxies. I had a guy whine about people using proxies and stomp everyone with his cedh urza deck.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

It likely wasn’t a cEDH deck, unless you have the list and it’s almost exactly the same. Even then, cEDH Urza is running interaction pertinent to a cEDH match. Mental Misstep isn’t winning any power 8 games against Ur Dragon. What cards are expensive but necessary? What is expensive? Dockside comes to mind as a pretty integral piece, and it’s not prohibitively expensive if this really is your hobby and that playpattern is your goal. Cradle is prohibitively expensive and necessary for the Chulane and Kinnans of the world, but the Chulanes and Kinnans of the world are already going to roflstomp even high power games. Chulane, specifically, you can approximate the mana positivity with something as simple as Cloud of Fairies. So, pray tell, what is so expensive yet also so necessary? Edit: also, proxies are probably being used to power up the deck. No ones proxying Llanowar Elves, other than for a different card look. Why not play within one’s budget, instead?

@rav5373

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian It was a cedh urza. It was winning consistently on turn 2 or 3(rarely on turn 1 or 4). And proxies are not always about something that is necessary or expensive. You can proxy Dockside, you can proxy Force of Will, you can proxy Rhystic Study, you can proxy Doubling Season, you can proxy OG dual lands, you can proxy Mana Crypt, but you can also proxy Felwar Stone, Sol Ring or Lightning Bolt.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@rav5373 what's the point in proxying inexpensive cards other than alternate appearances? The cost of the proxy could well be more than the value of some cards. CEDH mindset isn't pubstomping, so that's an outlier of a player. Even if that's the case, his pubstomp-ness doesn't invalidate his disdain for proxies. Someone being a shithead doesn't make their opinions wrong. It's absolutely plausible for him to be an ass and for proxies to be problematic. Edit: it still seems exceedingly unlikely that someone with a $6,000 deck was casually sitting down at an unknown table. What was the pregame discussion like? High power decks can absolutely win in early turns. I just won on turn 3 yesterday with a competitive but not cEDH Smeagol deck because I had a fucking killer Culling Ritual that made 14 mana. 💁‍♀️

@rav5373

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian Yes, he was an outlier. I was just giving an example. The point of proxying inexpensive cards is that you maybe can't get them easily other than ordering them and the cost of shipping would be much greater than just printing them out. Or maybe you're missing a few. It doesn't matter what the reason is, if someone wants to proxy, let them

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@rav5373 I think that's more of a playtest card than what we're speaking about with proxies. Idk. When making my decks ill have to order a few things anyway, so can pick up an extra ewit or whatever at the time. Lol! Certainly we're not discussing ordering proxies. That shit takes weeeeekks! 😆. Longest length to obtain Lightning Bolt ever.

I get near perfect proxies. But I have no issue letting people know they’re proxy if they wonder, nor would I ever sell them to people for market price.

I started proxying my best cards so I can keep them in hard cases

@user-ki5fg6kv1c

6 ай бұрын

If you own the cards, then it's not a proxy, it's a placeholder. The difference is subtle but important..

@majinvegeta6364

6 ай бұрын

@user-ki5fg6kv1c that's an interesting perspective, but I don't think it matters to most of my opponents as they look the same regardless of what I call them.

@user-ki5fg6kv1c

6 ай бұрын

@@majinvegeta6364 just bring the actual card with you. When you play the placeholder from your hand, put the actual card onto the playfield on top of it. I do this with a couple of foils I have that are unplayably curled.

@majinvegeta6364

6 ай бұрын

@user-ki5fg6kv1c I'd rather not carry a few thousand dollars of cards in a separate box. I had my deck get stolen minutes after playing in my first World Championship Tournament (DBZ CCG 2002) and I'm not looking to go through a similar process of rebuilding a collection ever again.

@user-ki5fg6kv1c

6 ай бұрын

@@majinvegeta6364 ok, that's a lot of placeholders.. I'd have a problem with that too... They're playing cards. If they're not being played, they're not living their best lives. Let 'em play..

I'll say, I find this conversation in general exhausting, but I disagree with a number of your points. I'm fine with proxying to a certain degree; I think proxying cards you already own is totally fine (i.e. there's no reason you should buy five copies or Rhystic Study to put in each of your decks with blue). I also don't think there's anything wrong with proxying a fairly pricey card that you want to test out, with the intention of some day buying, with the emphasis being that you can and will buy it eventually. What I do have a problem with, is the attitude of people that support proxying anything and everything. I've been playing EDH since 2010; the Magic community used to support budget builds and try and find alternative, cheaper cards. It made the format really great and it introduced a lot of niche and interesting pet cards, that you never would have seen if it wasn't a budget alternative. It made the format a lot healthier and a lot more varied. Unfortunately, what has developed in the past five years is a much more homogenized format. While I don't think proxying is the sole reason for that, it certainly has been a contributing factor. Make no mistake, proxying is, by the very definition of the word, counterfeiting cards. And while I would agree with you, that there is a substantial difference between trying to sell/trade proxies versus just playing them, it's still encouraging counterfeiting on a mass scale. This will absolutely have consequences for Magic the Gathering long term. In the past, the cost of cards like the dual lands or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, or Gaea's Cradle have largely kept these cards out of the format. But as you normalize proxying and counterfeiting cards, you also normalize their inclusion in the format. Every single deck that is green is just objectively better with a Gaea's Cradle in it. Every single deck that is more than one color is objectively better with dual lands and fetch lands. I think we would all agree, Magic the Gathering should not be a game where people have to spend hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars to play. But the alternative is also true; people should not have to proxy simply to play the game either. And this goes beyond simply calling it "pubstomping" or "power levels" - the relative power level that dual lands provide, is fairly minimal, but also noticeable; because the reality is, a lot of people go to LGS's to play Commander and you're kind of at the whims of the random people you don't know and what they bring to the table. It's not about sitting down and having a discussion about "power level" - because if someone else has decks full of proxies and you have a precon, what are you going to do? Not play the game? Of course not, you showed up to play. The final thing I will note, the main thing I hate about proxies is when people show up with images they printed out of their HP3000 deskjet in black/white (or even color for that matter) and just put over some basic land in a sleeve. One of the main appeals of magic is the cards themselves and their artwork. Your paper printouts look like complete and utter fucking dogshit and I'm tired of playing with your shitty printouts that have 300 DPI and I can hardly make out what the card is because the print quality is so bad. If you are going to proxy cards, at least go to a website that makes proxies and order them; put a little bit of skin in the game like everyone else who actually owns the cards, to make your proxies actually look nice, so it can at least feel like we're playing Magic. Otherwise, why don't we all stay home, spare ourselves the copy paper and shitty printouts, and just play on a program like Cockatrice or TableTop Simulator?

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

💯. Unanimous proxy endorsements have made casual commander a high power and less diverse format. The creativity is gone, and threat assessment is warped.

@jacobalbert2603

6 ай бұрын

I also started playing commander in 2009 to 2010 range, and I personally only proxy cards I own. All that said, I 10000000000000 % disagree that this should be the standard for everyone. First off, today's EDH and mid 2000s EDH are wildly different games. Both financially and functionally. Back then, buying a rhystic study was like $3, you could get cyclonic rift for around $1. Due to the limited popularity of the format, it's staples and many power house cards were easily accessible. Budget back than was kinda the norm since almost every card fit that idea. That's simply not the case these days. Not only do those staple type cards now demand a MUCH higher price tag, but the format is far faster due to wizards designing for the format. The power gap between budget and the average deck is FAR wider than the early days. The only place I half agree is that people using proxies do need to ensure they are at least decently produced/printed. Beyond that, your just gatekeeping because you don't like seeing people play with cards you decided to pay lots of money for.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@jacobalbert2603 there's a discussion to be had about pros and cons and things folks dearly believe, but I'll never understand the nastiness of pro-proxy people accusing those who dislike proxies as doing so because of a desire to gatekeep and feel good about their investments. The person you're responding to laid out their issues, and ignoring their words in favor of negativity is a pretty shit move. There are valid reasons to dislike or like proxies. There are never valid reasons to gaslight others and not respect their motivations. Its attitudes like that which further cement my desire to not associate with that part of the community.

@mooninites755

6 ай бұрын

​@@jacobalbert2603 People like you are the reason i find this discussion exhausting, because no matter how well or clearly I lay out my arguments or provide multiple critiques of proxying, I get the same braindead response from pro-proxy morons- "wHy ARe YoU tRY tO gaTEkeEP tHe GaME?". It has nothing to do with gatekeeping; and yes, obviously the format is way different than it was 10 years ago, probably because the insistence of people on including Rhystic Study in every single deck that is blue along with dozens of other staples. It's not gatekeeping to tell you to play with cards you actually own, it's called a reasonable fucking expectation. The fact that you have the unreasonable expectation that every single one of your decks should have a copy of every card you deem a staple is the bigger problem than the cost of the cards.

I only play with proxies. I only play casually and with my friends. At this point I have the money to buy the cards, but not all my friends have. On top of that, we play with proxies since we are all poor kids. Its our way to play and we enjoy. I usually design my own art, frame and cardback.

honestly the fact that this is still a debate shocks me. i wanna play against you, not your wallet.

@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey

6 ай бұрын

Magic is probably the wrong game then. Literally any collectible card game is probably the wrong game. Im not trying to be rude btw. Its just every card game gets expensive once you pursue meta decks and bling cards. It just is. If you want a game where the cards you own doesnt matter you need to play a game where the deckbuilding happens during the game from a common pool of cards like Dominion or Star Realms. The simple fact of both players having their own deck means to some level magic will always be p2w. Buy meta to win, meta will always be at miminum slighly more expensive cause its more sought after. For a game designed for kids an extra few dollars prices them out. Simple as.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@@KyleTremblayTitularKtreyor any hobby, really. I can’t go yachting with my yacht friends if my budget doesn’t allow for a yacht. It’s interesting that people believe they’re entitled to experiences.

@philistineau

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian It's cardboard kid, not a yacht.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@@philistineau quite a few notable cardpieces worth more than a boat, child. You just can't proxy up a boat.

@hrodebertcoad9848

6 ай бұрын

​@@SandovianYet you can make cards for pennies. Yachts have a high material cost. Maybe think before you speak, kid.

I play a rule 0 custom deck of cards that do not even exist, resembling Dark Souls Bosses. It's a blast. :D It's about fun. If it's not why bother playing it?

I hate those AI generated ones that are sold all over etsy, but that's about low effort AI content and not about proxies.

Proxies are the way to go when it comes to casual play. I wanna play MTG not who has more money. Anyone who says otherwise is just a rich ass who wants flex their wallet. Obviously people trying to profit or scam with proxies are pukes.

Absolutely you should proxy 100% of your cards in Commander. There is zero moral dilemma involved in this game and no one forced you to put money into Magic. Commander is not a sanctioned format and is technically labeled "kitchen-table" Magic. What *private tournaments* do and what rules they make are entirely up to them; they are private, after all.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

This is not true. Proxies do exist in a legal grey space, whether your personal morals see it that way or not. Specifically questions of art theft. There have been a few big dramas about this recently, and this information is readily available even if proxy enthusiasts find it uncomfortable. My gosh, how the Magic community treated that artist girl in the MPCFill fiasco was disgusting. I digress. Anyway, it’s not too bad in the grand scheme of things, but it is not undertaken without valid criticism.

@hart7668

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian A legal dilemma and a moral dilemma are not the same thing. It only becomes a crime once you try to sell it off as the real thing or your own. Under no circumstances is someone morally obligated to play with real cards in kitchen table Magic.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@hart7668 I have stated, if not in this comment, then elsewhere, that one's morality may allow for proxies. Mine does not, and I do not wish to play with those of such character who do. That's a discussion that will veer into relativism and goodness, and isn't for this page. Suffice to say; however, that you've stated an opinion. Not a fact. This is fine, we'll all play with who we want to play with. What is more objective; however, is the grey area of proxies legally. Both the legality of making dupes of official products from WotC's perspective, and the issues surrounding the sale of unauthorized artwork on proxies. The latter can be avoided by making and printing your own or working with the artists themselves, but don't think this has not been a problem in the community. It absolutely has been, and I feel for those creators who have been affected. I choose to not associate with that. 🤷‍♀️. I've been pretty nastily attacked here for that choice. You may choose opposite. Like I said, that's fine. My point in replying to this comment was to say that it's not true that there's "zero moral dilemma."

First

Congratulations you missed the point of the discussion. It is, “should you play with them not can you”. You can’t play with proxy’s on arena so any cards you’ve never acquired in real life you can’t proxy.

@KeepTheKitLow

6 ай бұрын

How did you come to that conclusion?

Proxying is theft. I'll play against thieves, but I won't be one. Your choices are on your conscience.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

Unpopular but correct opinion

@hrodebertcoad9848

6 ай бұрын

Theft against who? WOTC? Nope, sorry, their market and proxy users have no overlap. Trade sites? Again, no overlap... It's weird, I can't seem to find who is being stolen from. Value has to be taken from a market or an individual for it to be theft, and that's just not happening.

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@hrodebertcoad9848 the artists on proxy sites. See the MPCFill drama. Also, arguably WotC ("nope" is not an argument). It is their product that is being duped, and that is problematic if funds are used on proxies. Of course, this one is tricky with the nature of the secondary market. It would be really wonderful if the Magic community, both sides of this discussion, would at least be kind to the beliefs of others and recognize that these are earnestly held opinions. The user here is uncomfortable with fake products. That's not unreasonable and is a pretty common initial reaction. Plenty of others, like everyone being an asshole to me, are aware that no one enforces this and it's gives folks access to new cards and play patterns, and thats cool. We can respect both views and have an honest discussion about it. Playgroups can be mindful of the comfort of their friends. But rather than being chill and having exchanges, this community resorts to nasty name calling and rude indignation. Nerds in a nutshell lol.

@mooninites755

6 ай бұрын

@@hrodebertcoad9848 It's quite literally the theft of intellectual property. The artwork and symbols are owned by Wizards of the Coast. You're just objectively and legally incorrect.

@hrodebertcoad9848

6 ай бұрын

@@mooninites755 Having to refer to something as nebulous as ip while not being able to connect it to monetary loss related to that ip is a massive L

Never do I ever hear folks who don’t like proxies bring up counterfeits. Both of us are making anecdotal statements, but super hard doubt. Now. Lack of funds is NOT a reason to fake a product. EDH can be played on an extreme budget. High power proxies change deck building expectations. At a lower power level, a basic land, tapped land, or conditional tapped land will NOT make a huge difference. Printing up thousands of original duos is not necessary. Most everyone is making concessions in their decks for a ton of reasons. Budget being one of them. CEDH doesn’t care because cEDH is looking for 100% tuned decks because all we care about is the winning against prepared competition. We’re looking for skill and a competitive eye on a multiplayer conversation. Outside of cEDH, where proxies are necessary to meet your opponent’s goals, the only fair reason to proxy is for a card you already own so that you are not wasting time moving cards around through various decks. I’m not responsible to coddle others who are not willing to invest, even the smallest amounts, into their hobby. I do all kinds of things that have a buy in cost. Likewise, I don’t do a bunch of things because I cannot afford to do them. Access to experiences is NOT a right. A really fun aspect of EDH for me is seeing cards folks have accumulated. Especially old cards with some wear. That’s a card with a story. I gave a buddy a Treachery, I love seeing him play it. I gave a buddy a Survival of the Fittest (we’re primarily collectors who have played since Stronghold). I love seeing it incorporated into his decks. A proxied set of original duos is meaningless. It doesn’t have a huge impact on the deck, and it shows absolutely zero self expression. Such a horrible outcome for an item of questionable legality (see the MPCFill drama and stolen artwork). Proxy for cEDH - understanding that if it ever picks up proxies wont be allowed. Proxy your own cards so your decks are properly prepared for a match. Do not proxy high power or expensive staples. All you’re doing is ripping off the spirit of collecting while needlessly streamlining your deck. Be more creative in the deck building process with real cards and have fun with it. Stop normalizing this attitude. I think it’s far more gatekeepy to make people feel like they NEED, say, a Dockside Extortionist to keep up and justifying that through endorsing proxies than it is for other folks to be uncomfortable with the spirit of fake cards. Pot calling the kettle black.

@philistineau

6 ай бұрын

Your stance is out of step with even WOTC, who has stated that proxies are acceptable at non-sanctioned events. It's an opinion that thankfully will be ignored as irrelevant. You seem blinded by your cash burning in the hobby; morally outraged that people want to enjoy the game without spending the money that you have. I think that's the crux of your issue and why you felt the need to comment on every poster on here. You don't like others gaining enjoyment without ponying up $1000 for a set of land cards. Your gatekeeping is an attempt to make a game involving nothing more than cardboard an exclusive endeavor that only the wealthy can enjoy. It isn't yachting. It's playing pieces of cardboard and turning them sideways. Even WOTC seems to understand that...

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@philistineau that's not true. I'm sorry. You may think you're speaking with someone unfamiliar with this topic, but unfortunately for you, that is not the case. WotC does not endorse proxies. The two statements folks like to point to for this are Maro's statement on not gatekeeping "real" cards, and WotCs announcement that they're not going to police playtest cards. Maro was referring to transformer cards, not proxies. This statement also helps soften the blow of the M30 release. Playtest cards have a different philosophy from a proxy - a card you're testing while determining if you're going to purchase is a different ballgame than someone with proxy original duos they absolutely never intend to buy. WotCs *actual actions* are pretty clear. They do send cease and desists to proxy websites and proxy are not allowed in sanctioned tournaments. While individual characters at WotC likely do not give a fuck about proxies on a personal level, the company's bottom line absolutely does and your narrative is categorically false and gaslighting. As for my motivations, mind your own and I'll mind mine. It's an interesting discussion and I enjoy commenting on the internet. I'm absolutely empowered to do so, so save your evaluations of me for someone who cares. That you had to descend into toxicity because someone challenges your beliefs is pretty cringe, but good to know you're reading 👍

@philistineau

6 ай бұрын

@@Sandovian In your honor, I'm going to use one of those proxy sites to proxy a commander deck "worth" more than $1,000 today!

@Sandovian

6 ай бұрын

@philistineau weirdly toxic, but you do you. Print up a $10,000 deck. It won't make you a better player 👍