I kinda prefer the term "optimizer," if I'm being completely honest, because *THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG* with optimizing your character for the role you want to play.

One of my oldest friends is a power gamer and rules lawyer. However, he is one of the good ones. He understands the rules and shares that knowledge. He plays the game to have fun, and does everything to keep us all honest. He even understands that when the GM makes a ruling, that is the way the game is going to be run from that point going, though he will bring up the actual rule if there is one. However, if the GM says "this is how we're running it," he just says Okay and that's that.

@MonkeyJedi99

7 ай бұрын

Making a very effective character, knowing the rules, playing according to the rules? All good things. Such players become a problem when they negatively impact the play of others, otherwise they can be a great asset. - I'm running a Rolemaster sci-fi game right now, and one of my players knows the rules better than I do. He could be a jerk about it, he could keep that knowledge to himself to make his character "more awesome", but he doesn't. He uses his knowledge of the rules to help us all to play a more consistent and enjoyable game.

@danacoleman4007

7 ай бұрын

I call baloney! That is not an actual person.

@jesternario

7 ай бұрын

😄@@danacoleman4007

@SymmetricalDocking

7 ай бұрын

The worst type of possible Rules Lawyer is the GM. The New York PFS had our Vice Captain that way, RAW but only when he wanted to punish a player. "You can't slide down the rope, there are no rules for sliding down the rope so you have to spend several turns climbing down it."

@MorinehtarTheBlue

7 ай бұрын

​@@SymmetricalDockingGM or no you're really talking about a particular kind of Rules Lawyer. Those are the type to only insist on the rules when it provides a benefit to themselves.

I remember when I watched a video by Dimension 20 in one of their Contested Roll videos where they argued whether min maxers were good or bad. The person that was arguing in favor more or less "won" the debate when they made a statement along the lines of why would I punish my players for learning the game.

@SSkorkowsky

7 ай бұрын

Haven't seen that one, but I 100% agree with it.

The power gamers in my group are also the best roleplayers. Yes, they min-max their characters and strive for the best bonuses and most powerful stuff but they are also highly engaged with the roleplay and will always strive to work with the story to the benefit of everyone. Thankfully, none of them are murder hobos, I chased that behavior from my table a long time ago.

@SwiftJustice

7 ай бұрын

You've got Power _Players_

@elhoteldeloserrantes5056

7 ай бұрын

Same in My table, i'm know as the dm that helps his players yo make strong characters (they are gonna need them...)

@kdolo1887

7 ай бұрын

as if people in real life don't want to be the best at anything. If this weren't the case, you wouldn't have power gamers in the first place.

@bigblue344

7 ай бұрын

Limiting your character actions is often a good way to keep power gaming in check, like accepting an obvious scam if it presents an interesting situation.

@certifiedfunnyguy

7 ай бұрын

That is my experience as well. Most people who really dig into the system get excited by building a strong character and by playing out a cool personality

I, for one, want to hear more about those Death Frogs.

@rynowatcher

7 ай бұрын

Death Slaads?

@danielrowan4716

7 ай бұрын

Now you’re talking

@TheRyujinLP

7 ай бұрын

I, for one, welcome our new Death Frog overlords.

@Syaniiti

7 ай бұрын

Seth really needs a "would you like to know more?" popup that you could click and go on a 15 video journey just to finally think to yourself "why am I watching a video about the marriage laws of Alabamax IIb?"

@otakuofmine

7 ай бұрын

maybe the Souls variety

Reading people's stories of dealing with a Power Coward in their group, is always so funny. Like three months into a campaign they'll take damage for the first time, and start freaking out at the table.

@DualKeys

7 ай бұрын

"Oh, I'm in pain! I think this is what pain feels like!"

@benkaes3657

7 ай бұрын

Had one of those in a still ongoing D&D campaign, before he got booted for being a prick to the host's family. He was fine versus goblins and other minor enemies because they barely hurt him, but once he spent 5 full minutes whining about taking damage from a trap because he failed a Dex save! He was the reason I'm a rules lawyer in that campaign, because I can usually flip to whatever rule he was whining about before our GM has finished paraphrasing it.

@christopherjohnson7133

7 ай бұрын

We had a power coward many years ago. However, in our case, I must admit, we found him very amusing at times, which was unintentional on his part.

@lucas23453

7 ай бұрын

I once had my most evil encounter. Banshee and a Wisp. Only one player failed their save, they accused me of unfairness and targeting them, and then later ragequit the game.@@benkaes3657

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

A melee fighter who insisted on bringing their mount everywhere with them, underground dungeons and tombs included. Only person in the party with a shield/any sort of armour. Of course 90% of the time they sat at the back of the group so their mount couldn't get in other people's way. If there was anything he considered dangerous (not that he had any context to judge that) he would just refuse to enter melee and stay at range with arrows, which he sucked at because of his stats. The only person in our group that spent less time fighting was a spellcaster. This would be fine if it hadn't gone on for over a year, eventually we just had to make plans for fights as if he wasn't even there. This guy also actively tried to derail the campaign the session before we finished it, where he introduced a new fact about his character that prevented them from continuing on their journey, which hadn't been established in RP or with the GM beforehand. Sometimes he treated the game like he was in the matrix and he'd die irl too, but he also can't help but metagame and break immersion if it suits him.

The last time I had a power gamer at my table we were playing a game that gave extra rewards for putting in the killing blow. This guy would hold back his attack or minimize his damage so that the other characters would do almost but not quite enough damage to make the kill and then he would take the killing blow in the next turn. After a few games the other players had figured out what was going on and they started doing the same thing, resulting in Mr PG taking more damage but not getting the kill. And then he stopped playing. The annoyance wasn't that he was focusing on building up power, he was focusing on 'out scoring' the other PCs.

@Electric999999

7 ай бұрын

On one hand he sounds like a dick, on the other hand that mechanic was just asking to be abused, there's a reason most games split combat xp between the whole party.

@varenoftatooine2393

2 ай бұрын

That's why those mechanics aren't good

@RockOfLions

2 ай бұрын

@@varenoftatooine2393 agreed, but at least the other players didn't exploit them... until he did.

Power Coward. Gods, that reminds me of a player during Pathfinder 1E. Super specialized into a Paladin with high as hell AC and saves. Full plate, tower shield, defender sword, the works. We're talking, until the party was roughly level 10, most enemies could not hit him with anything besides a Natural 20. Then just one random enemy was able to hit him on a die roll of like 14 once for maybe 10ish damage and then suddenly "Holy crap, I gotta go, this guy's too dangerous!" while clearly forgetting about his Cure spells and Lay on Hands...

@SwiftJustice

7 ай бұрын

Least Valiant Paladin ever

@Arcon1ous

7 ай бұрын

I always have that problem with the other players in my group when I'm playing a very powerful character, I start taking damage and start getting excited about the fight, and suddenly everyone else is freaking out that I've taken a good chunk of my health bar when I'm loaded with ways to heal and have hurt him way more than they hurt me. Its like, calm down guys, I'll be fine, and even if I'm not, we can do revives or I can make another character, it'll be okay.

@rikusauske

7 ай бұрын

Almost like he forgot that he has other abilities besides his ac lol

@NecromancyForKids

7 ай бұрын

​@rikusauske Sadly, in Pathfinder 1e, unless you use homebrew, you usually have barely anything else as a tanky character. That doesn't excuse their actions, though.

@thorinpalladino2826

7 ай бұрын

@@NecromancyForKids Bah! My raging barbarian laughs at your paladin's pathetic AC.

Personally i diferenciate power gamers and munchkins Power gamer: wants to make a powerfull character followin the rules. Munchkin: wants to break the game, a thing that is actually a problem.

@bigblue344

7 ай бұрын

I had a munchkin player before who didn't read or know the rules. He came up with this complicated build and strategy for his character that was actually just more inefficient if he just played the character straight.

@AlteredNova04

7 ай бұрын

This. Power gamers are honest and respect the game rules. If the game is genuinely poorly balanced, they avoid using obvious exploits and try to optimize within the "spirit" of what the designers intended. Munchkins will intentionally misinterpret game rules to create obviously unintended exploits, and will beg to be allowed to use overpowered homebrew. Munchkins are also way more likely to outright cheat and to act like a "power coward."

@josemariapena9741

7 ай бұрын

I think that "munchkinism" is the result of deficient game mechanics (nothing is perfect, anyway) and unattended or neglected supervision during character creation. Incoherent builds and difficult to justify character descriptions are red flags for this. Letting the DM to have the last word could suffice, however there is the extreme of being too restrictive and not letting the players to propose new character concepts. The common sense and the harmony with the rest of the party should be the golden rule.

@macoppy6571

7 ай бұрын

Munchkin: short person, rules abusing power gamer, card game

@0x777

7 ай бұрын

@@josemariapena9741"munchkinism" is a result of a defective game group. The WoD system (my preferred one) is very freeform and it's as trivial to create an overpowered character as it is to create a useless gimp. What matters is that your group does not allow either of them to exist. Yes, that's not just the GMs job, that's a group effort. Because else, it's munchkin vs GM, one opinion against another. That way, it becomes obvious to the munchkin that NOBODY wants to play with that.

Sort of related story. I'm playing the opposite of a power coward in my Warhammer FRP game. I didn't plan on power gaming a super strong warrior, but through a combination of a bunch of lucky mutations, and a concerted effort by my party to make me stronger my character, a mutant orc named Lug (formerly Ludwig, a human. Long story), is a total badass. But he doesn't lower himself to fight lowly jobbers. No when the cultists with their knives break in, Lug puts up his feet and tells the party "Don't worry, you got this." But then when the cultist summon a greater daemon Lug cracks his knuckles and says "Don't worry, I got this." It's really fun to play this ultimate badass as someone who only cares about the challenge, who doesn't waste his time with weaklings, and who ultimately protects the party from the biggest threats because he's the best equipped to do so.

@viniciussardenberg706

3 ай бұрын

that system has downright become my favourite had lots of fun with it

Had not put together concept of the Power Coward but, daaaaaaaaaaaaang, that hit this GMs nerve. The last couple of times I really hated GMing I now realize it was due to a Power Coward... Great video, Seth. Look forward to the next one.

@rynowatcher

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, adding that to my terminology.

@MonkeyJedi99

7 ай бұрын

I also fear Skalexian (sp?) Death Frogs. No clue what they are, but any frogs that earn the word "Death" as part of their name? I'm out.

@kylekillgannon

7 ай бұрын

I had a buddy like this years ago. We called it the "Bully" archetype. Because they were the baddest ass ever around goblins but the minute their one trick didn't work they called it quits

Way back when I still played Tabletop RPGs, I was rolling up a new character while BSing with the GM. He was using a new (at the time) set of tables of advantages/disadvantages. The number of times you rolled on each table was determined by a dice roll. I rolled a 1 for advantage and a 6 for disadvantage. After adding up and subtracting from My stats, and putting down ever phobia this character had....I flat out told the GM that this guy would NEVER even leave the village much less go adventuring, as he was afraid of EVERYTHING. He laughed at me and asked to see the character sheet...after looking over the Newly named "Barney Fife" or "Don Knotts" I could not decide which. The Gm handed me a new character sheet. Like I told him some people would NEVER be the adventuring type.

I was halfway through a comment about how modern games can hardly even BE min-maxed when you mentioned it. I definitely agree. Modern gamers who hate min-maxing should have seen the shenanigans we got up to in D&D 3.5e or Shadowrun 5e.

@sergentharker7182

7 ай бұрын

Seriously, a guy putting his highest attributes to the things he wants to be good at is nothing compared to the webs of nonsense from 3.5 that made it into a nightmare after a few years.

@NathanPatrickLane

7 ай бұрын

Sentinel + Polearm Master comes up a lot, but even that build falls apart as soon as you introduce multiple combatants or ranged attacks.

@gmradio2436

7 ай бұрын

Level 1, +50 to disguise and bluff. That was Pathfinder. At around the same bonus you could remove limbs with medicine while the vict... patient sleeps. Fun times.

@The_Murder_Party

7 ай бұрын

@@gmradio2436hold on- how’d you get there!? 22 dex (a stretch, but possible) a skill rank make it a class skill, small (+4) gives you +10, I guess vanish gets you to +50 while standing still for a few rounds? Otherwise skill focus only gets you to +13- what am I missing here XD a racial bonus or two, but that only gets you +2/4 at max

@The_Murder_Party

7 ай бұрын

*it gives you +14, not+10, please add 4 to all my maths :)

I mean this as the highest version of compliment: I literally see Dweebles as an entirely different person than you, Seth. I always have. It's just really dawned on me how much I separate you from him in the skits you write. A+

@tigercrush2253

7 ай бұрын

Genuinely took me a skit or two to realize he was playing all the roles. Just outstanding.

@dubuyajay9964

6 ай бұрын

I love Dweebles though. I want to give him a hug. :(

Seth, you seem to reflect many of my own RPG philosophies and expound on them far better than I've ever been able to. The fact that "optimization" seems like a dirty word in RPGs and the idea that a character who's optimized or min/maxed can't be RPd has always baffled me. For me, that's actually where a lot of the fun is. I create a character generally optimized towards a particularly playstyle or fun and powerful seeming combinations and once I've put it all together I step back and go "what life path led to this person I have created?", and reverse engineering who they are based on that has led to some fun characters for me that I could really get invested in. It's honestly harder for me to start with the character first because it often feels like I then have to make so many concession with the mechanics not lining up with my RP that the character I end with isn't really the one I conceptualized anymore and have to get reinvested. And yes, if you know the rules better than the other players (or even the GM in some cases), you just as often get jeered as being a "rules lawyer", as if knowing, understanding, and remembering the rules is somehow cheating or being exploitative. The rules are there, they exist for a reason and are meant to be used, and frankly I get tired of people going "rule of cool" as a way of saying "I don't care about the rules". While the rules shouldn't be the end-all-be-all and at times it's okay to twist, modify, and even ignore them, such cases should be done with thoughtful reason, otherwise a game can devolve into chaos and hurt feelings when it feels like everyone's playing by a different set of rules that can change on a whim. ...sorry about the side rant. There are elements of playing TTRPGs I'm kind of passionate about.

@johndoucette6085

7 ай бұрын

Testify, brother, testify.

@danacoleman4007

7 ай бұрын

Extremely well said!

This may be my years of wargaming speaking. In my opinion the difference between optimizing and powergaming happens at the inception. Did you choose your character/class/profession because you had an idea or it sounded fun and now you try to make the best version of that. Or did you choose it because you found a way to abuse the rules/a weird loophole and this was the optimal way to exploit that.

@joenapalm4841

7 ай бұрын

Yeah I can relate to this. Unabashed power gamer but I'm usually trying to optimize the suboptimal because it's interesting. The Polearm Master guy is a different animal entirely

@vernandsockey8611

7 ай бұрын

This. I know a guy who ALWAYS tries to take the Fey-Touched Feat just so he can get Misty Step, but he refuses to give any reason for it in his backstory. Like, dude, all I'm asking is that you give me a reason for your character to have this!

@chickvancluck8823

7 ай бұрын

@@vernandsockey8611Yes, wanting a bonus action teleport requires a page in a character's backstory.

@AdamLeisemann

7 ай бұрын

I get that. I often worry that I might be a power gamer because when I'm given the slightest leeway, I go for weird ideas (while trying to be appropriate for the game) that just happen to be fairly powerful in premise, even if I can't optimize the rules exactly to fit the vision I have in mind right away (That's what XP is for). Granted, that's generally easier in free-build RPGs like Fantasy Hero than in class-and-level games like Pathfinder. But it's just so fun to sometimes go "out there" as long as you still fit the theme of the game.

@philmcdonald3322

7 ай бұрын

@@vernandsockey8611 Hate to hear that, one of my favourite recent characters I played was fey-touched for minmaxing reasons, but since I made it a big part of his backstory I had a great time with a paranoid lunatic blaming everything bad that happened on "THE FAE!"

I have no problem when players take advantage of the rules, but it's best when they help the other players take advantage of the rules too. Instead of just asking if *you're* close enough to get the bonus die, ask if the guy behind the car is close enough.

I had a power gamer in my group that always played casters and all it took to give him pause was a 10' pit. He would stall an adventure for an hour or more b/c he didn't account for having to jump.

Tbh, if I was a professional monster slayer, I would probably try to be as powerful as possible. Being intentionally strong and min maxed is a realistic type of role play

I feel the same way about power cowards. That feeling when the ultra badass abandoned the group because of danger just filled me with question marks

@0x777

7 ай бұрын

They wanted to create a character that allows them to vent off steam, to go berserk and show off. They didn't want a challenge, they didn't want an actual fight, they just wanted to feel powerful.

@shadiafifi54

7 ай бұрын

@@0x777Or it's their precious mary sue, and the very idea of a challenge offends them. They want a power fantasy that solves all its problems effortlessly. Really, power cowards should just stick to video games and turn the cheats on. I freely admit to being a power coward at times, but I keep it away from the table.

@Daemonworks

6 ай бұрын

@@0x777 Or they only made a character that's powerful in combat as a way to reduce the risk of character death in a game that's more lethal than they'd like.

@0x777

6 ай бұрын

@@Daemonworks Also not that uncommon. The train of thought here is "I can argue and fast talk, so I don't need those skills if the GM lets me just RP it, so I pump all into physical stats because, well, there ain't no way to decide it but to roll for it".

Another fun and insightful video. I think a way to look at it is that 'Power Gamer' isn't really a complete 'RPG style' in the same way 'RPG Terrorist' or 'Murder Hobo' defines a person's entire approach to the game. A lot of players want their character to be the best at the table in their specific role. You have the guys who are spec'd for social encounters, the guys who want to be the best a certain skill like driving, characters who want to be the best support character they can be, etc. Power Gamers are just that focus put on the aggressive side of combat. So having an optimized character for your area of focus isn't really a playstyle in and of itself, it's more an aspect of it. You can have Murder Hobos who are Power Gamers, but you can also have heavy Roleplayers who are Power Gamers, etc. And it is kind of odd to think about how people are down on Power Gamers when really, having a guy who is good at fighting is as beneficial to the group as it is for them to have other focused characters. No one is going to complain that the Cleric/Healer of the team 'Power Gamed' their build so that they can give out the best Buffs and Heals possible. Likewise, few people are going to complain when the Social 'Power Gamer' is able to talk a merchant giving them sweet discounts on items they wanted. So it seems weird that they complain when the combat Power Gamer is the one cutting down enemies and taking hits meant for them, because his actions are just as beneficial to the group as the other two examples. I imagine the issue is two-fold. For one, the part can more directly experience the positive benefits from other specialized characters. If a character gets optimal healing or optimal benefits from their pals social skills, they get a personal and direct benefit. Meanwhile, unless the Power Gamer does something specific like "I jump in the way of the attack meant for my friend and take the hit", it can often be hard to realize the Power Gamer is having that kind of positive impact on the group. By making themselves the target, they are in fact helping the group and killing guys that could be attacking their team, but that might be difficult to grasp immediately when all you see is your friend being awesome in combat. The second part is something of an outgrowth of that where, in a lot of RPGs, it's expected that the entire group will participate in combat, because combat is fun, exciting and lets us indulge our inner 12 year old that wants to be an action movie hero. So while only one person is usually expected to do healing and one person is usually expected to do social stuff, everyone is expected to fight, so it can feel like the Power Gamer is showing everyone else up. Which is understandable, but is ultimately looking at it the wrong way. In a lot of cases, the healer is the only one doing the healing and the social guy is the only one doing social stuff. Everyone else has to hang back and try not to get in the way. The Power Gamer will usually not be able to win a fight on their own, so even if their the baddest mamma jamma on the field, everyone gets to participate in the fight. So in a weird way, while other focused characters get their time to shine solo whenever their skill comes up, Power Gamers have to work to shine in an arena where everyone can participate. So it really is more a matter of perception where players need to look at the Power Gamer as being the guy who is helping them win fights the same way other characters succeed in other areas, and to not look at it as some kind of competition. You appreciate the Healer for the healing, the Smooth Talker for the smooth talking, appreciate the Power Gamer for the enemies he keeps from getting to you. Also, I've had the good fortune to never play with a Power Coward, but oh my God, that would drive me nuts. There's some serious "bully" vibes from a character who will gladly beat up people who are little threat to him but will run at the first chance of a fair fight. And now I feel like I can officially call this a 'ramble', so I'm just going to say 'thanks' again for a fun video!

@turtleboy1188

3 ай бұрын

They had a bad power gamer

I think power gamers can be very good at a table if they do their job and teach the rules/give tips to other players. Even as a DM, my power gamers forced me to adapt and i learned a lot just by trying to adapt my encounters and stories to a bunch of immortal godkillers

That shootout scene was pretty rad, honestly.

I like to have an effective character, have optimized on occasion, and get called a power gamer for it, but I enjoy the roleplay aspect and investigation parts of these wonderful and silly games we play as much as combat. I also like to have optimizers in the games I run because that way I know I don't have to work so hard to avoid a TPK. Preventing TPKs should really be the players' job, so it takes a weight off the GM when they can trust the players to not set themselves up for disaster.

@bigblue344

7 ай бұрын

That's the reason why I ended up power gaming in the first place, to protect the other players.

@Syaniiti

7 ай бұрын

I personally don't think that having a character capable of doing their job is "power gaming". That's hiring on merit.

@Daemonworks

6 ай бұрын

I also love to have an effective character, ideally a fantastically effective one... but I don't really care for combat in most games, so I've moved to systems where combat's not central. Now I get to make characters that have one unusual speciality that I can make incredibly helpful, and then most use the character to facilitate whatever other players have going on. Investigation, negotiation, craftsmanship, a particular field of research, etc. I'm currently playing a special effects artist in a modern game. It's great. :)

@wulmer8257

5 ай бұрын

I mean, dosent the gm just adust the power of the enemies to suit the players directly, if the players have an efective power of 10 due to optemising their characters, aret the gm just gona make the enemies have an efective power of 10, while if the players had an effective power of say 7 due to not opemising their characters, would just the gm make the enemies have an efective power of 7?

@Syaniiti

5 ай бұрын

@@wulmer8257 The villains have to be competent otherwise there's no reason to play the campaign. And the power of the villains should match on- and off-screen. This means that the villain must have a minimum level of "efective power" as you put it and cannot be lowered down to the level of the most incompetent PC. If the city guard / police / average joe is more competent and capable than the PC then the PC does not have a job, the adventure gets solved without them. And if the average joe gets powered down to the level of incompetent PCs then there's no world for the players to adventure in. Hire on merit, not on who happened to fill the character sheet.

One character I made in Alien which became famous and was used in other campaign was the Hana unit. I made what was a bodyguard synth since they can have higher str and thus resilience and hp were much higher than normal. And bodyguard doesn’t use an action. So the Hana unit literally teleported around the fights eating up damage for the other players. This was so crazy that the model type I made has been used in several other games to the point where some players don’t fear the alien at all but if they have to go against a Hana unit they lose their shit.

I had a hard time with my power gamer because I was new and thought it was automatically stealing the spotlight. I was wrong. It's sort of like having a cat that won't stop jumping on the third shelf with all the precariously places minis. You just learn that the cat will always jump there and switch your minis. You know the Powergamer will always want to powergame in their way, that's fine, work with them not against them. Awesome video as always!!

As a tactically minded "power gamer", I really thank you for this.

I was once told in a 3.5 campaign that picking a greatsword over a greataxe was power gaming. Your skit is more accurate than it is parody.

The way I see it; I like to make characters who are good at what they do. Building a basketball team? You want a Jordan on your roster. Solving a mystery? You want a Sherlock Holmes. There's still room for role play and sharing the spotlight, but you're ready for your job.

The power coward part has me rolling. I have seen that a lot in gaming and never knew what to call it. Generally it’s the fireball wizard running around the room trying to get the adds off them while the tanks are attempting to grab back agro right before the wizard flees the room. We also had this rogue with a ring of invisibility go into the dungeon and open all the doors so that the monsters flooded into the hall way finding our unsuspecting group looking completely surprised while they stole the gold during the party wipe. One feature you should discuss is Meta-gaming. Lord they are the worst. Talking over the table about game mechanics When we are trying to enjoy the rpg moments. Love your content man- keep it up!!!!

@marcoliver625

7 ай бұрын

Dunno about a fireball wizard being a power coward - not being smart enough to keep his squishy ass behind the tanks yes - but that's a different issue right there. Power coward to me is more that tank character that won't actually tank.

@The_Murder_Party

7 ай бұрын

I want to defend meta gaming actually- sometimes you need to know the mechanics, and if you do, you won’t be stuck with a plan that flatly won’t work- for example a plan that involves someone hitting a dc 30 check on a character with +8, maybe you should let the charecter with +18 try for that one instead, or just to have the knowledge that what they’re attempting is… basically impossible.

@janallenneuendorfjr4784

7 ай бұрын

@@The_Murder_Party well when i saw meta gaming its really cross talk over the table about things the characters would never know. So its really giving a character an advantage it would not gain if each remained in character. It’s really a tough scenario to manage. A thin line between meta gaming unfair advantages verses say- the party just discussing who should do what or be more effective at x or y. Which is just them really doing what you would with a group of friends in an RL situation. Hope that explains meta gaming better. It’s kinda a gray idea.

@The_Murder_Party

7 ай бұрын

@@janallenneuendorfjr4784 it is yeah, also neither of us even mentioned (if you use them) reading ahead in the module, because that's a no-go, but I tend to be pretty loose with meta knowledge, though discussing things across distances you can't see across is a bit sticky, I don't mind it if it means the party won't kill another party member.

@dubuyajay9964

6 ай бұрын

He did a Meta video a while back.

I've been in far too many situations where someone at the game table decided they could talk down to me, because I dared to learn the rules and be good at math.

Last time I was this early, no one had heard of the Scott Brown Incident

The power cowards thing makes me think of that panel from that jack chick dungeons and dragons book where the GM is saying a player's character died from not seeing a trap and the player starts screaming "no not black leaf!"

Power gaming/optimization guides are great for new players. My first D&D character I was frustrated that I felt useless halfway through a two-session long battle. So I spent hours learning real strategy and better spell choices (I’d gone for flavor instead of practicality) and with permission from the DM to switch some stuff around that I’d never used, went into the second half of the fight knowing exactly what to do.

I appreciate this video. As a forever GM. When I was a player I was a power gamer. And, I never understood the stigma of knowing the rules and using them to your advantage. I never stopped roleplaying. My turns were always planned out in advance and I kept the game and the dice rolling. As a player and GM I can tell you I appreciate a player that knows what they're doing and doesn't need to slow down the game for them to take 15 minutes to decide to use a cantrip.

I think we have very different ideas as to what constitutes min/maxing. Min Maxing isn't putting your best stat into your prime requisite. It's like having like 18 STR 18 CON 3 INT 3 WIS because the 18s mechanically impact your character and the 3s don't and you can just ignore them. Or like in many games, taking advantages you won't actually roleplay or bring into effect, making them like free points to let you buy the major advantages.

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

That's why most games don't let you do that. D&D 3.5 is the only game I've ever played where that's possible

@Electric999999

7 ай бұрын

@@feral_orc Except it doesn't, you can't go below an 8 (pre-racial penalties) in point buy, and if you're rolling then having your least important stat be comically low is one of the many things that can go wrong.

@feral_orc

6 ай бұрын

@@Electric999999 yes you can and often will go below 8 in a stat by choice, I'm not sure what your point is, and we all know no one ever cheats* when rolling stats. *This is a lie, fudging stats is a time honored tradition in D&D Seriously though, 3.5 was the pinnacle of deranged minmaxing and no other game I played comes close

One issue on this topic I have personally experienced is that some system can cause an extreme difference in power level. I once played in a game with a far more experienced player in a system I was new to and we both played combat characters, but my character was essentially useless against anything meant to challenge his combat monster and he would steamroll anything suited for my power level because of the huge power gap due to his understanding of the system and the ways to optimize things while I rolled up baby's first swordsman.

I've just got back into playing Runequest and I see that system may have a solution to the Power Coward issue - if you are a follower of one of the warrior gods (esp Humakt) running away and leaving your friends in peril is likely going to be worse for you than staying and getting hurt/captured, maybe even killed. Reputation is all and if you betray the group then your rep is shot. Maybe this could adapted to other systems?

@danacoleman4007

7 ай бұрын

Very interesting!

@the-real-Lovefist

7 ай бұрын

Humakt will not suffer cowards

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

The way to fix the power coward issue is to talk to your players. This system makes zero sense when running away is supposed to be a valid option in most games. This suggestion is a sub-system of a sub-system, it's not designed for wide use

@johnquick9849

7 ай бұрын

@@feral_orc I disagree in the context of Runequest where a heroic death can be a desired outcome. In other games (e.g. Call of Cthulhu) then running away is always a good option. I merely offered this as a suggestion, not as the only solution. I would - of course - explain to my players the consequences of joining a heroic and/or honourable cult and the penalties that breach such a cult's code may bring, so perhaps we would end up in the same place.

I was just thinking in my head “I really want to watch a Seth Skorkowsky video” and couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw a new video was up! Yay thank you!

I like to role playing through the gameplay. That include making character good in the following the rules.

@AzureIV

6 ай бұрын

I never have a character concept first, and then try to create through the rules. I always create characters through the rules, and then try to work the roleplaying in after.

@randomusernameCallin

6 ай бұрын

​@@AzureIV As you work on your character through the rules, you need to ask yourself how the character will act in the gameplay or their role in the gameplay.

Really liked the video. Whilst I can understand that what you're describing is probably the most typical experience it doesn't actually match mine. The first group I played with would tend to have very powerful characters and we roleplayed them so much. In that group we'd keep character and player knowledge separate and do things like when the party separated the characters that weren't present in the subgroup with the GM would roleplay amongst ourselves and then when the GM was back give them a quick update. Groups I've been in since then have accused me of power gaming because my characters were good in combat, even though that wasn't my main focus, for knowing the rules and I got treated like I was being disruptive when trying to roleplay off to the side with someone. Those groups couldn't keep character and player knowledge separate and they were massive murderhobos.

Believe it or not, some GMs can be power cowards. Great video.

3:10 There's a lot of good workout instructors who talk about this in the context of the 'swimmer bod', as the 'swimmer bod' is often considered the ultimate body-goal for a lot of people looking to get in shape. He said simply that, the reason swimmers have 'swimmer bod's is not that working out gave them that particular set of proportions, but but those particular set of proportions gave them further incentive to pursue swimming.

I play regularly with a couple of min-maxers that take the time to RP and really get into character. We get into in character squabbles that occasionally set the entire table to laughing and I often ask them for help because I’m newer to the system. We always take time after a heated session to make sure everyone is OK, and communication is crucial to this play group. However, I’ve played with the bad kind of power gamer before- the Munchkin. They rode what I not-so-affectionately nicknamed the Character Carousel. Their characters were either really tall or really short. Near max stats. And were combat builds of varying flavors. I beat them once with a character I intentionally optimized to try and get them to pay attention to RP more because they kept insulting everyone, and this character of mine was one that wouldn’t stand an insult. They threw a fit and replaced the character I defeated in a nonlethal spar that session. Every two-four sessions there was a new character, and they got annoyed, “Why don’t you treat (goblin ranger) like (Goliath barbarian)? They’re all my characters!” Thankfully I don’t have to deal with that anymore, but I still hear about the chicanery they pull.

I always want a history, backstory or theme to my characters, even one that's disadvantageous to them, but I also design them to be good at what they are supposed to do. Thank you for this.

@robsomethin4415

7 ай бұрын

I never understood people who don't make their characters good at what they're supposed to do. I played with a guy who put their highest stat in intelligence as a wisdom caster while their wisdom was a 13, and their strength was a 14. Why would you even do that? Play a wizard and not a cleric in that case

From my experience what causes power games to have their questionable reputation just comes down to how very noticeable they are. Their strong builds leans towards having a high impact on the table, be it good or bad. If the group is down to deal with the bad apples, I freaking love power gamer as a DM. Nothing quite as reassuring than knowing a player has mastered their part of the rules. Makes my job one hell of a lot easier.

One issue I've ran into a few times over the years with min maxing is the problem of it often only really working well when the entire party is of the same mind set regarding min/maxing. Otherwise the player/s who didn't hop on the min/max bandwagon often struggle to contribute as effectively in encounters, and tend to grow frustrated/jealous of the min/maxed chars and how they feel more like a sidekick than equal member of the team.

@AzureIV

6 ай бұрын

What I loved about 4e D&D was I could play a Warlord. I was min/maxed in a way that made everyone else musclefied and stronger. Even if they weren't min/maxed, they were moving and attacking as good as those who were.

I am a power gamer, the roleplaying is only a distant second to my priorities when it comes to fun for me. But that's just the kind of guy I am. Give me a system and I will jump into it, sinking my teeth in like a rabid dog and not letting go until I understood it's ins and outs. Creating builds and homebrewing magic items is something I do for fun when not at the table. But I know that about myself. So I always do my best to not let get in the way of the fun for everybody. I try to go along with the story as my fall back character if I don't have an interesting idea is the mercenary who does his best to get a good deal out of his work but also always does as asked. Pretty much a lawful neutral character. Throw me a hook and I will take it :D

Power Coward is a great turn of phrase. My personal favorite is when the person who wants to play the Main Fighter of the party then optimizes on a "strike and fade" or "spring attack build" so that they can hit an enemy and leap away...leaving all of their more squishy and vulnerable allies as the only targets available for the enemy. Or stacks up so much active camo / cloaking capability that they can't be detected, but makes no attempt to prevent allies from being detected and shot at. The "Messy Ninja" in a party of people with low stealth drawing attention to the group, but not themselves....

@The_Murder_Party

7 ай бұрын

I don’t mind the sneaky versions, because you can sometimes pin them down, and when you do they’re toast, the one that gets me is the selfish tank, where they’ve min-maxed into AC and HP, don’t hit super hard but between that tower shield and a stupid high con score are basically unkillable, then they keep using that tower shield to make themselves not a valid target- because no enemies that are balanced expecting a massive ball of meat are forced to target something else, and that almost always means the DPS

Personally, I find the trend of popular advice being 'weak characters are better' and 'all powergamers are bad roleplayers' to be utterly asinine and tone-deaf. As a DM I have absolutely no idea why you'd ever want your players to deliberately handicap themselves in the name of avoiding being labelled a 'powergamer', or why you'd want them to avoid using their problem-solving tools to solve the problems you put in front of them. I LOVE the take you present here. As a Player, Power Fantasy is why I'm here most of the time (with the exception of Horror games), I want to be useful, I want to Have the means to *solve problems,* not to be Dead weight or be helpless all the time. Having absolutely no control ever is not fun, and isn't always 'good roleplay' either.

"Tell me, Cimmerian, what is the riddle of Power?!"

I’m definitely a power gamer. But after playing a fighter than way outshined my teammates I tend to play support characters and hyper focus on DM plot threads. Thanks again for the great video. And thank you for doing another season of glass cannon. I wish you would do more. I love the voyagers group so much.

You know what, I can appreciate this video. I had a power gamer join a game of mine recently and looking at it from a different angle he probably saved the group from an extremely deadly fight. Thank you.

My best optimiser player earned a really high AC on his paladin during a -year D&D campaign. Unfortunately, the character realised that his legend was spreading throughout the enemy, (lots of recurring foes) and that they would try to slow him down and began targetting his squishy allies. To his credit, he adapted by doing more to draw fire and by taking crazier risks - which was even more satisfying for him. :)

I love your Thulsa Doom shirt!

A power gaming player isn't wrong in of itself. However, it is exacerbated tremendously when... 1) They don't Role Play at all. 2) The murder hoboism you mentioned. 3) They contribute nothing to moving the story forward. 4) They maliciously derail. 5) They have zero interaction with other players as well. 6) The lack of interaction becomes contagious 7) They disrupt the DM and other players with unrelated chit-chat, usually about how they "Can't wait to level up, again!" 8) They sit there and ONLY interact with the abilities, feats, and especially attacking moments in the game. They just want to roll dice all night. 9) Only selfish. Welcome to my world, and maybe some issues other players/DMs are having with (only) the min/max optimizers, who tend to have that uncooperative personality. 2 players in my group had all of the above issues, and the rest (mostly) had multiple. I don't mind players optimize their character at all, it's fun, but compound that with not moving the story forward, not role playing, and selfishly disrupting the game, etc... not cool and not fun. Glad you don't experience this, but it definitely exists Seth. Thanks for all you do.

@originaluddite

7 ай бұрын

"They just want to roll dice all night" hence some of us distinguish between 'role-playing' and 'roll-playing'. :)

@MarkLewis...

7 ай бұрын

@originaluddite Yes, and that's what the R in RPG stands for, role, not roll. As a DM, I'm not there to read a 4-5 hour bedtime story to the players as they intermittently kill everything they meet. Combat is fun, but not when that's all there is. If you just want to kill monsters all night, just go play a FPS video game. If that's what everyone playing their group's RPG wants- cool, but if not, each side (role-ers vs rollers) needs to meet each other halfway. It's collaborative, not a competition. Thx, have fun in your game!

@MarkLewis...

7 ай бұрын

@originaluddite Sorry, know I wasn't directing that at you personally... parts of my complaint may seem angry at you, I'm not, but sorry anyway.

@originaluddite

7 ай бұрын

@@MarkLewis... oh no, I get it, and feel similarly. Just seems like you've had some frustrating first-hand experiences. Speaking of bedtime stories, one of my players did say my narrative segments were restful, but I made sure to share it around after a while, and turned it more into bits of 'flash back dialogue' they had to recite. Players should work too, even if it's not a sandbox. :)

@MarkLewis...

7 ай бұрын

@@originaluddite Good, glad you understand. When D&D or CoC is great, it's great, but when they're bad... they are a frustrating nightmare. Nice on-line meeting you. (Tiefling Wizards rule!!! Lol)

My issue with "power gamers" tends to be because they're often one trick ponies. They've built their characters solely around combat to the point that they are uninvolved in noncombat situations and expect the other players to pick up the slack.

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

Blame the games. Bards never have that issue, but if someone wants to play a fighter well you're fuckin screwed no matter what else you wanna do

I just was in a game where I saw a power coward in action. His ranged spell attacks can one shot basically anything, he has the highest armor class in the entire group, but when the notion of his character getting hit makes his character run in fear. It get even more furious since I am a healer, I am not going to be healing someone who got a booboo instead I am healing the three nearly dead party members. Sometimes their are times where the normal GM can't make it so this player runs the party thru an XP dungeon, enemies will never attack his character, and his character will know all the traps and enemy placements, effectively becoming a DMpc. I could deal with all of that but the smugness is the worst part, like their is a glory hog and then their is a player that belittles other players for not being optimal and making characters "the wrong way" (whats that you are not trying to deal the most damage, then you are and idiot and your character sucks). Writing this is also making me realize how I do not like playing with this player.

In my career I encountered several power gamers and I agree thatnthe terms has been stretched to cover a variety of only partially related behaviours. The one that always jump to mind was a fellow players that stretched the rules to the point of making both them and the GM snap. Long story short, their character was built on a barely RAW legal combo that took a dump on the spirit of the game, but allowed them to play with the equivalent of 6 levels over the rest of the group. The player idea was for the GM to put a huge opponent for them in any combat, while the rest of the team either took care of the minions or acted as cheerleaders. When the GM refused to bend the story backwards for them... well things got pretty crazy.

I have a Power Whiner. They’re happy to charge into the fray, but the minute they take any damage they’re calling for the healer, if their attacks aren’t landing or dealing a lot of damage they sulk and get visibly frustrated, and if they go unconscious, they just throw their hands up and yell, “I’m dead!,” which isn’t the case in 99% of games these days. They’ve also been k own to slip into the Power Coward role when this happens. River me nuts.

I haven't had a power coward so much as I've played with a (not very good) power gamer with way too much of a precious ego, to the point that a couple of times when story-related bossfights were coming up (e.g. a duel against his character's sister in Legend of the Five Rings) he'd ask the GM if he could respec because he was afraid his character wasn't built right to handle whatever was coming up.

Dweebles saying "Excelsior!" was not something I realized was on my bucket list, but apparently it was, so thanks for that!

My most memorable experience with the Power Coward was when I agreed to do a quick 2-hour playtest of a game in development along with another guy who came to the LGS that day. Pretty much the second we got to the playtest's boss the other guy had his wizard run away, even though it was a playtest and therefore had no actual stakes and very little roleplaying. My knight died after burning all his magic points to hurt the boss and then the wizard sniped the boss from the bottom of the tower's stairs, pretty handily proving that I'd have been fine if he had helped at all during the fight.

GM: Did you roll those stats? Or did you use point buy? I want the truth! Player: You can't handle the truth! We game in a dark world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by players with optimized stats. Who's gonna do it? You? You, half-elf bard? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the sorcerer and you curse the multiclass with a dip into fighter. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That the sorcerer's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about on discord, you want me on that wall. You need on that wall. We use words like multiclass, variant human, and S tier... we use these words as the backbone of a character spent defending something. You use 'em as a cringe post on reddit. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a player who roleplays and sleeps under the blanket of the character choices I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a dice and drop initiative. Either way, I don't give a damn if you think I am a min\maxing power gamer. GM Did you roll those stats? Player: (pause) You're goddamn right I did.

Hey Seth! Great video, as always. It makes me very happy to see that all the art you feature in your videos is human made, and not the soulless AI drivel I see starting to pollute so many other RPG content creators' videos. I love your channel and have recommended it to all my friends :) Keep up the excellent work!

@Lordgrayson

7 ай бұрын

I think Ai art generators are a godsend for TTRPG players. If you need art of a half elven artificer alchemist you can generate it if you can't find anything. It is one of the best things to happen to online gaming in a while

@mukst1o

7 ай бұрын

@@Lordgrayson Also poor indie creators can illustrate their books now

@Lordgrayson

7 ай бұрын

@@mukst1o exactly art commissions are super over inflated on price. AI art can help mitigate the overhead cause you are paying for quality rather than just paying for custom art

@manicpixiedreambuoy

7 ай бұрын

​@@Lordgrayson And I would agree with you that Ai art generators are a godsend for TTRPG players. But TTRPG players =/= content creators, and that’s a key distinction here. People who use AI-generated imagery for their own personal, private purposes are perfectly fine; AI can help people who haven’t had the privilege of learning the challenging crafts of visual art, storytelling, design, etc. It’s phenomenal as a jumping off point for creativity. But you have to build on it, otherwise, you are not enhancing the creative process-you’re replacing it with the generic, bland output of a dumb algorithm. People who use AI-generated imagery for profit are playing into a structure of corporate abuse, exploitation, theft, and privacy violation. I could get into this more (lemme know if you’re interested), but I’ll leave it at that in this comment, as it is a complex topic that requires a lot of elucidation. On a personal note, I find AI imagery lacking in every single aspect that makes real, human-made art meaningful, moving, and beautiful: AI generated imagery lacks personal vision, design, narrative substance, creative intentionality, and artistic specificity... it’s a superficially flashy but vapid and pale imitation of humanity, a generic regurgitation of (often completely nonsensical) digital pabulum, empty of real feeling, vulnerability, and meaning.

@Lordgrayson

7 ай бұрын

@@manicpixiedreambuoy I completely disagree about the quality of AI art, other than hands AI art is often better than the commissioned art I've received and can be tweaked more easily. And depending on how you are generating it you can have the same kind of common style you would get from it being made by a normal person

What e great video! I totally agree that making a powerful character and knowing the rules are not bad things. My group are filled with experienced gms who loves to learn the systems and make odd ball characters and yes, we all make powerful characters. We always specialise, one makes a competent combatant, one makes a social character, one makes a crafter, one makes someone with knowledge. It allows us all to shine at something and make the party good at anything we want to do.

By Crom that is a magnificent tshirt.

There's a reason you're my favorite RPG guy - and this is another great one.

I unfortunately don't have a groul to play with:( But I have created 6 different lvl 1 D&D Characters in case I ever found a group. 1 of them is a Male Mountain Dwarf Runecarver background Wizard planning School of Necromancy. What makes him extra fun is that since he's a Mountain Dwarf he can wear decent Armor while still being a Wizard, which then helps counter the "Squishiness" stereotype. Finally, for all the characters I used a different way to determine stats. You start with 72 points you can spread however you want then add your Racial/Background stats on top of that.

Love the lighting you used!

I feel a character should be, if not optimized, then efficient, according to their role in the group. If you're a face, you should have high social stats. If you're the beatstick, you should have high combat stats. They don't have to be perfect, or mono-focused, but they should fill the niche well.

"Scalexian Death-Frogs" sounds like an AMAZING creature and I kinda want to put something called that in my next game...

The only player I've ever had to ask to tone down optimization WAS ALSO one of my best role players. He was obsessed with making interesting characters and playing them, but because of some early GM's he had he was also obsessive about breaking whatever system he was put into in order to make those characters. But after a bit of a chat about not breaking the game because the rest of the players weren't interested in the level of challenges that had to be brought up to keep his characters from making them trivial, we changed over to traveller from D&D and had a lot more success (although he did end up going off to be a GM on his own).

I discovered/came upon this optimized duo: Take 'Periapt of Wound Closure' (magic item) + 'Remarkable Recovery' (feat). I use this dup with my healer character, so I can be the battery to keep my companions going.

Seth: It's not true that power gamers don't role play. Also Seth: I don't really play with power gamers because I prefer games that are more focused on role play. 😅 But seriously, great video! You and the Alexandrian are my favorite TTRPG KZreadrs. Keep up the good work!

I personally have a power gamer who always helps me playtest my game for "breakability" because she will find the most absurd ways to gain power. I love it because it shows her understanding of the game and I can use that for interesting plots/ mechanics

A variation on power-cowards is the player who doesn't abandon the party (never seen that one, thankfully), but the player who is happy to coast through on their min/maxed character and turn every encounter trivial but then gets really grumpy or squirrelly when they get called in to make a suboptimal roll. You spent five sessions with your hyper-skilled sneak attack rogue, doing insane burst damage and never running into adversity because you can stealth out of every encounter, and then the GM sets up one scene to take you out of your comfort zone, put the character's back against the wall and make them express their character's weaknesses, and you start emanating negative energy as you try to argue your way to a sneak check. Just roll your weak stat, play out the failure, and make it fun and memorable that you're out of your element. As long as your GM is giving you plenty of chances to shine, being dull for a scene is not just okay - it highlights when you do excel.

Me: [Reads and learns the rules] Ok, I have worked out how to do a thing. It took a lot of optimization and I'm proud of the results. GM: Cool. The GM's wife: I do a thing [that I have not configured my character for and may even be against the rules]. GM: Cool. Me: :-(

A valid method, I usually optimize my own characters based on a theme or over-arching idea (a sword wielding fighter strives to be the best at sword fighting), and I certainly allow it when I GM. In my experience, most players who are competent enough to power game usually are great role players as well.

Man, the sub-optimizer deserves a video on their own since there tend to be the bad ones. Almost everyone I've dwelt with always did so since they thought it entitled them to be the bestest EVAR in the end and would flip out if I didn't give them that in the end if they didn't earn it. And I would give them the chance to, if they played the part I'd award them bonus good role playing Character Points but ask them to use it to start buying off their quirks and bad decisions. But no, they wanted their weird "I'm special since I have X" but still want all the negative sides of being that X to not actually affect them.

Seth its getting to the point where im starting to think your other personas are real people. Keep up the great work. I would also like to thank you for reviewing THE DARE scenario from CoC. You got me hooked on that system now. Its still my favorite scenario from the game.

Very good and balanced view. As a DM, I'd actually prefer to have at least 1 powergamer in the party. The rest can be unique snowflakes of various degrees of uselessness, if they want to, but when the chips go down, I'd rather have someone who I can rely on to carry the combat part.

I like the idea of designing into the game that a char created through power gaming choices has the character in the narrative make choices that give them power at the expense of something else. Also attach to it role-playing hooks and traits.

For me I just like to be in a place I feel I'm not holding my party back combat-wise, so I end up doing a lot of research on the side for ways to make my character more combat-capable.

Power gamers, min maxers, munchkins, or really whatever you want to call them are like most things. They're a problem when they start to hurt the enjoyment of the other people at the table.

Just off topic: LOVE the Conan/Cult of Set shirt. 😍

One note though; power gaming is not just a player attribute but a style! My local 1E game is definitely run by a hardcore power gamer DM. Our party averages 9th level and all of us have some potent magic items, weapon mastery etc. Yet we routinely get one-shotted by powerful enemies and suffer TPKs at least twice per year!😂 So while the PCs are powerful the world/game is extremely dangerous and deadly. Despite taking reasonable precautions and attempting to play cleverly we still lose characters fairly regularly.

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

You mean you're just playing AD&D basically. This sounds normal for that, not an exception

A gaming group I played with for years was all power-gamers and min-maxers, including me. The first time I ran a game for them after joining the group, I got my ass handed to me. I had no idea what I was dealing with. But unlike a lot of other players who (briefly) joined the group, I realized I'd found a home. I revamped my game and we had loads of fun with it. One key was being willing to tell a player, "Yes, you're very clever, but you can't play that character in my game." Having had their cleverness recognized, they'd then make a more reasonable character and actually roleplay. Another was teaching them that the GM could power-game and minmax just as well as they could. The NPCs could be just as ruthlessly efficient as the PCs, and would be, so fighting was always risky. "If it's a fair fight, you've already ****ed up."

I've always taken the approach that my character wants to live, and as such, will acquire the skills and tools to make that happen. The roleplay comes in how they go about that. One might go for overwhelming firepower to kill the enemy before the enemy kills them, while another might go for every defensive ability possible to be able to tank anything. The way they're min-maxed tells you something about the character. The rules are there to facilitate roleplay, so I don't see why an optimized character is in conflict with roleplay. There is one type of power gamer that is a bit antithetical to roleplay, and that's the one focused on weird exploits and perceived loopholes to the point of actually trying to break the game with pretty clear nonsense. But that's a problem that goes beyond power gaming to the "trying to win" mentality.

Another really great video! I love your different alter ego characters :D Deathfrogs, are those a real thing?

@AzureIV

6 ай бұрын

They could be if you want them to be.

A very enlightening video on many fronts, but my experience with a "they know the rules" player hasn't been them utilizing their own advantages. Its been them telling OTHER players to do certain actions to give themselves advantages. It's the butting in on other people's turns to tell them what they should or shouldn't do, specifically without a care for what the rest of the group wants to do, that makes this type of a player annoying to play with. If they lay out several options or jump in quickly to genuinely help another player, I really appreciate their knowledge.

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

So you say they can do it, but it also annoys you? Do you give your players a chance to discuss tactics openly at the table? Or are you trying to keep these rounds to 30 seconds? Some people will literally never learn if they don't have someone to explain this stuff. You're getting mad because one of your players is invested in the overall success of the group. So what's the actual issue? Maybe you should encourage the other players to brush up on the rules if they need to be reminded of things constantly

@thearchitectwarrior5409

7 ай бұрын

@@feral_orc You misread my comment. It wasn't the success of the group, it was their own success. They weren't giving advice, they were giving orders to other players to give advantages for only their plans. And no, I did not allow them to do it after the second session. To be clear, I'm happy with people wanting the success of group and knowing the rules to achieve that, so long as they're actually keeping the GROUP in mind. This was just my specific interaction with a knowledgeable player, so I realize this isn't a general issue.

If I play the powerhouse character of the team, I try to make it so that all the attacks come my way. I am the taunter tank in MMO terms. I have trouble playing cowards.

Thank you for the concept of the power coward. I have a power gamer who is also a great roleplayer, but I didn't like how he played for some reason. Yes, it is hard to balance some stuff for him, so I usually don't make things too difficult for the party, and he's cool with difficult fights, but he refuses to fight at disadvantage, which once cost him the rest of the party.

Please give more stories, I love em. "This led to great moments" is a sentence that should always end in "like the time..."

I really love making effective characters. They're usually powerful in combat unless the game I'm playing is mostly social. I mean, I have fun roleplaying, but also most games I play (Pathfinder 2e recently) are combat-heavy. Getting better, getting stronger, fighting bigger and stronger foes, it's a good feeling. I like making badass/powerful characters, and my roleplay will reflect that.

Great stuff! ⚔🔥🙌

Power gaming can be a hobby in itself. I can recall many fun times optimizing characters in Hero System.

The hidden secret players never seem to remember is that it doesn't actually matter how optimized their characters are, I, as GM, will just adjust the challenges to match.

@feral_orc

7 ай бұрын

Ha, good luck. You fudge dice too? 😅

@TinyPirate

7 ай бұрын

@@feral_orc nope. But the number of mobs may go up or down, or the skill of the enemy.

I was the operative in our starfinder game so i read the stealth rules. Its absolutely bonkers that you can get a +40 to stealth roll in that system. I used it to get like a 72 on a roll at like level 4 or something. The group was flabbergasted. The GM and i agreed to reduce the bonus to +5 and we were both perfectly happy with that

Power Gamers is why Batman had to get hold of some Kryptonite.