Your videos are of such an incredibly high quality. Your sources are up to date, you use scientific language (terms such as possibly, arguably or likely) and regularly emphasise that what you are saying or arguing might soon become outdated, and your analysis of history is not restricted to military and political history, but also tackles topics that have received relatively litte attention in mainstream academic history up until the late 90s or early 2000s. Rarely will you find another history KZreadr whose videos fit these criteria. I also very much appreciate your longer (25+ minutes) videos and hope that you will continue producing them.

@fjkelley4774

Жыл бұрын

I would not discount an ebola-like disease, but ebola itself appears at irregular intervals in central Africa. It must reside in another population (maybe bats? some other rodents?) as it seems to kill humans too fast to (usually) spread effectively. A human infected with ebola would not make it to the Nile and to Egypt. That said, a slower-acting disease could.

@shadowpoet4398

Жыл бұрын

Yes, absolutely! This is very refreshing to experience. I'm a new sub, now!

Recent events must have really launched pandemic research in history forward, it's interesting how their impact seems to be forgotten easily by historians, perhaps it's more comforting to downplay them in the fall of empires.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. One of the older views is that these events did have a large impact. But I suspect they’ve been downplayed due to the severe shortage of evidence making it difficult to really investigate until we started being able to employ the hard sciences. For a long time all we had were fragments of texts

@conniepr

Жыл бұрын

Along with the saying history always repeats itself I can see this happening again. Especially with the light winter. Not only will Ukraine have an increase in pestilence but everywhere.

@Vicus_of_Utrecht

Жыл бұрын

@@conniepr light? winter? Bwuahahaha

@noeraldinkabam

Жыл бұрын

Sure, this is has all just come to light since december 2019. Before that nobody was aware of all this. It’s not that you just became aware since it became more relevant, that would be insane!

@user-io6pj8bz8h

Жыл бұрын

It's been over one hundred years since the last pandemic. We have white man's science and technology today. Pandemics are basically impossible today.

Been waiting for this one since the last cliffhanger!

@Arkanthrall

Жыл бұрын

Speaking of cliffhanger, I don't think you uploaded the final video of your series "Historiographical Disputes: Was the Atomic Bomb Justified?". But maybe it's because it would displease the almighty KZread algorithm.

This is really cool. Knew of the Antonine plague by never heard of the Cyprus news plague until I listened to your video on why the Roman army used barbarians in the late empire. Honestly is even more impressive that Rome rebounded after all that happened during the 3rd century.

I actually had to read and summarize an article about this as the first assignment of my history degree! The “Plague of Cyprian”: A revised view of the origin and spread of a 3rd-c. CE pandemic by Sabine R. Huebner, 2021. The article is available online. It's a response to the article by Harper and it suggests that the plague appeared in the Balkans as a result of the wars with the Goths during the reign of Trebonianus Gallus (so after Decius's persecutions) and that it wasn't the cause of the Crisis of the Third Century (though it certainly exacerbated it).

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Yes! It’s a great article. I’m actually going to be doing a video shortly on that article as alternative view to this one. Like I said in this video, our understanding is changing very, very quickly

@Alcofribas83

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome Ooh nice! Looking forward to watching it!

@jakeg3733

Жыл бұрын

What was it's original point of origin then? As far as I'm aware hemorrhagic fevers are not endemic anywhere in Europe. Then again, we've eliminated many dangerous diseases in the past 2000 years, so maybe in the past they were?

@Alcofribas83

Жыл бұрын

@@jakeg3733 At this point there really isn't enough evidence to pinpoint an exact origin point, but according to Huebner it first appeared to the Romans during the war against the Goths along the Danube, possibly coming from the steppe peoples further north. We also don't have the exact pathogen, so while Harper suggests that the disease was a hemorrhagic fever we can't know for certain until we find it.

@jakeg3733

Жыл бұрын

@@Alcofribas83 I guess it will remain a mystery until we find a body that we can connect to it, with fragments from some hemorrhagic fever. But just reading description of the symptoms I can't think of another disease that would cause these, possibly it was an ancient variety that no longer exists and was endemic to the steppes rather than Africa. I mean the Goths and Vandals had no contact with Africa until the 5th century, right? Fascinating though, I'll have to check out that paper. I had never even heard of this plague until this video. Antonine plague and the plague of Justinian get all the attention, and while ___pox and Y. Pestis are horrifying I'd prefer them to anything resembling Ebola EDIT: Now I'm thinking of the havoc this would cause to a heavily urbanized population such as one would find in the Roman Empire. The saving grace of Ebola, ironically enough, is it's absurd mortality without modern treatment. Whole villages were wiped out before they could spread it. But in a densely populated city that did a lot of trading it would be devastating. This shit is incredibly transmittable, the R0 of Ebola is around 15 - 20, imagine what that could do in a city like Rome!

All those poor people who died in obscene conditions throughout history. Peace to their souls.

Any virus/bacteria that kills as quickly as Ebola tends to not spread. Romans did not have rapid transit systems like aircraft so I wouldn't put money on Ebola being the agent. The prolonged drought might have meant rodents being more far-ranging and intruding more on human habitations

@williamchamberlain2263

Жыл бұрын

Oh that _totally_ explains how it spreads in modern rural Africa

@davidrennie8197

Жыл бұрын

@@williamchamberlain2263 Modern rural west Africa is not as isolated as you may be suggesting. It doesn't spread as much as most epidemics. I expect that you speak "totally" as "toadally" ...

@availanila

Жыл бұрын

​@@williamchamberlain2263 there's a reason Africa has porous borders, I can assure you it's not because we live in isolated villages. With all the cross continental interactions, Ebola and Merburg still don't spread far with outbreaks. In fact my country has never had a single case if either despite there being outbreaks of both just across the border from us in villages that interact very closely with our villages

@impudentdomain

Жыл бұрын

I think you are correct, I suspect something born by rodents/fleas

@bacilluscereus1299

Жыл бұрын

given the fertility cycles of fleas and especially the Med region's most prevalent rat flea, is that actually plausible (the rats & flea route)❓ Didn't the black death spread amazingly fast?

I love the candor and nuance you demonstrate in this video. We can freely discuss how speculative the study of ancient diseases is, and concurrently, how much we don’t know. It’s still fascinating and important.

@WildFungus

Жыл бұрын

it is true of all history. It is looking at dust and asserting facts of cultural reality long since dead.

So glad I started watching this channel. Absolutely top notch history content.

Love your videos, my friend, especially your oration. Keep up the amazing work.

Terrific timing! I just heard about this plague for the first time and was very curious to learn more. If/when more scholarship comes out down the line, I hope you revisit this topic! There are so many questions remaining. Disease, and its effects on humanity's societies and cultures is a fascinating topic, and sadly one which is as relevant as ever these days.

Really well told with areas of speculation clearly underlined. Congratulations

Great content please keep it up, especially the analysis of Late Antiquity and transition from Rome to Barbarian Kingdoms.

I really appreciate the work you put in comdensing and spreading what you know. I've learned alot from this channel.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

You’re welcome!

Wow, excellent video essay! Subscribed!

Justinian's Plague of 535/536 is also believed to have originated in East Africa. Ships then took the disease north through the Augustine? Canal and into the Mediterranean/Constantinople.

This is the first time that I have come across your channel...and I'm impressed...Subscribed and dinged the bell😁🔔

Fascinating. I really enjoyed this video. Well done.

Also, theories about these ancient plagues are very interesting. Wonder about recent theories and research about the sweating sickness of the medieval English.

My favorite source of historical content!! Great video, keep up the amazing content!

Great video!

Well done Mike brilliant thanks

Excellent presentation.

Interesting, easy to take in this informative video.

Great video, had no idea

Was listening to this and thought it sounded like some form of hemorrhagic fever.

Thanks. Good information.

Great presentation . informative

When is your book due out? E-book, of course. This was excellent.

A modern outbreak would be horrifying. I never heard of this outbreak before. Amazing channel.

@rosiehawtrey

Жыл бұрын

Cv19 is horrifying. There isn't a word for what would happen if Ebola or Marburg get into the general public - especially because of air transport..

@hollybyrd6186

Жыл бұрын

@@rosiehawtrey the death toll would be staggering. A true nightmare scenario

@rosiehawtrey

Жыл бұрын

@@hollybyrd6186 That actually isn't the problem. It's the loss of knowledge inherant in the deaths. It used to be, at the time of the Black Death for example there wasn't so much knowledge to go around, people who weren't blacksmiths had occasionally beaten the crap out of some red hot iron, or people who weren't farmers had a relative who had taught them the rudiments.. It's the fact everyone is specialised - they learn how to do their single job and sit in it for life, an aunt isn't going to share how to run a nuclear reactor with her neices for example. We could do with reducing/controlling the population but I'm not sure society as a whole would survive something like Marburg, although we probably would as a species. Communications would go down and the energy grid would be a close second and NPRs need a lot of people looking after them or they tend to get a little melty like chernobyl or Fukushima. I hope they manage to control it. And I haven't even mentioned how much the general health systems are overstretched. Practically anything could knock that over. Its not a good situation.

@availanila

Жыл бұрын

People here forgetting Marburg and Ebola _have_ gotten into the general public/population. Do you all think Africa isn't a part of the general public/population? Don't you know the last time there was an Ebola outbreak there was a case in every continent?

@rosiehawtrey

Жыл бұрын

@@availanila Sigh. General population as in *the entire bloody planet.* As opposed to annoying the hell out of a few villages in Liberia and Dustin Hoffman. Grow up and learn about something called context.

Asserting its Ebola is really a reach. There isn't a long history of pandemic ebola even in Africa. The symptoms given are so generic that there is no end of possibilities as to what it was. I'd also really question what your source for "there were not enough soldiers" at the time of the crisis. Its equally true that Rome was facing considerable stronger opponents across its frontiers in the era and the tendency of military problems to occur in several places almost simultaneously probably has to be considered a factor as well.

@specialnewb9821

Жыл бұрын

I have to agree on it being a reach.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Well, like I said, much of this will likely change in the next five years. The cause of Justinian’s Plague being Yersinia Pestis was only confirmed in 2013, for example, and that’s largely because it’s been there since the beginning-the first cemetery studied back in the 1990s when investigating past infectious diseases was becoming a field of its own just happened to be a grave from that event. So while Ebola or some other filoviris *right now* is where the research stands, that is going to change. We thought it was smallpox up until only just a few years ago The point about the soldiers comes from a few different sources in the literature, with the classic study being “The Fall of Rome: The Military Explanation”.

@geoffrobinson

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like a similar virus. Doesn’t have to be the exact strain we label “Ebola”.

@Jim-Tuner

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome The better candidate IMO would be Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever and its associated group of viruses. The symptoms are correct, it fits the region, it fits in terms of mortality, its been found in the archeological record ~500BCE among Germanics on the Danube and its still present today. For its historical presence in the Euro/Med region see : Conner J. Wiktorowicz et al.: Hemorrhagic fever virus, human blood, and tissues in Iron Age mortuary vessels. In: Journal of Archaeological Science. Band 78, 2017

@RedDesertRoz

Жыл бұрын

There isn't a long history of anything from much of Africa! In which records do you think you would read about outbreaks of ebola thousands of years ago?? There isn't anything generic at all about the symptoms, you have never had anything like what it describes. They are an extremely accurate description of haemorrhagic fever, and while some of the symptoms are shared by some other things, (eg fever and headache), the bloody diarrhoea and vomitting, the blood from the eyes, thse things are much more extreme and even where influenza has caused extreme illness, these are not typical symptoms of it at all, even in pandemic, whereas they are described as characterising this plague. The precise list of symptoms doesn't match anything as well as it matches haemorrhagic fever. I think it's highly doubtful it could be anything else.

The little bit at the end about the formation of militias is interesting. Would love to hear more about that…

I don't see any other explanation than a hemorrhagic fever given the signs and symptoms. Also, "The bowels dissipate in a flow" is horrifying way to put it. Dying this way is second only to acute radiation syndrome in unpleasantness

@RedDesertRoz

Жыл бұрын

Yep, I agree, I can't see this being anything other than haemorrhagic fever such as ebola given the description.The blood from the bowels, the vomit, the eyes, the fact that it's referrred to as something previously unknown, it's appearance in Africa, the speed with which it killed....nothing else fits the full list as precisely as haemorrhagic fever. The most terrifying of diseases. It must have been so dreadful to be there.

@jakeg3733

Жыл бұрын

@@RedDesertRoz Rome's vast trade network and efficient organization working against it here. For over 1000 years after this, trade and transportation were not developed enough for something with an absurd mortality rate and rapid progression like ebola to become a pandemic. Hell, the outbreak in 2014 was the closest we've come since as far as I know and that was held back thanks to advancements in treatment and more importantly, our current understanding of epidemiology. This must have been absolutely terrifying to live through, it would seem like god/the gods had turned on humanity

I saw a paper that made a really good case for the Plague of Athens in 430 BCE being an Ebola outbreak

CE or BCE? Super work I just am not sure what time. The circumstances of the lecture will eventually let me know the I heard nonchristans AD or CE 4min 56 seconds into the lecture.

Good stuff

9:00 ... what? That bit about oscillating weather patterns is pure just-so.

Famine, war, pestilence and death. Is the 3rd century where we get that iconic image from?

@RipOffProductionsLLC

Жыл бұрын

I mean, in the ancient world those first 3 things often were interlinked, a war drafts farmers away from their fields to fight, and between the mass of rotting corpses upon battlefields and soldiers traveling to distant exotic lands, there are plenty of ways to introduce and spread a plague, and of course a nation ravaged by plague or famine might be seen as an easy target for invasion, or at least raiding, thus feeding the cycle farther...

This comment serves the sole purpose to be sacrificed on the altar of the algorithm machine god, and support this awesome content.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

All praise the algorithm!

This is an intriguing area of study that needs more work.

Epidemiology of the Black Death and Successive Waves of Plague by Samuel K Cohn JR was a fascinating read.

@bacilluscereus1299

Жыл бұрын

as was: Should We Teach That the Cause of the Black Death Was Bubonic Plague? Phyllis Pobst

While plagues ravaged Rome and its armies, wouldn't various tribal hordes and the Parthians have been rapidly decimated in turn? Leveling the playing field, so to speak.

@elizabethjansen2684

Жыл бұрын

If they originated in the opponents territory then there was a better resistance. Sickle cell anemia is actually from a resistance to malaria. In the country's it originated in.

You should probably put a question mark at the end of the title

Are you aware of any DNA/RNA studies of the subject? Or at least examination of remains for any symptoms that might have left marks on the victims' skeletons?

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

We do have a mass grave in Alexandria and another in Carthage, but while many professionals are not too enthusiastic. The bodies were all burned, which can potentially cause issues for trying to recover dna or rna, especially rna if this was indeed a filovirus. I’m not aware of anyone explicitly examining the bodies at the moment but that could change

The events on or near 256AD certainly added to the chaos. This was caused by a massive volcanic eruption likely in the Krakatoa area. The effects were worldwide and included drought and cold growing seasons.

Hoping this keeps going until we get a Plague of Justinian!

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

That’s coming!

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

​@@TheFallofRomeperfect user name 😂

Great video! Keep up the awesome work! Anyone ever notice how plagues tend to follow climate events? The drought before the Cyprian Plague, the giant volcano in 535 that set off the Justinian Plague.

Your voice is fascinating

That's a scary subject...

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Incredibly scary, yeah

@SkyFly19853

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome so much so...

How long after the 2nd Punic War did Carthage become a strong city with a large population?

@Marcelocostache

Жыл бұрын

Actually Caesar ordered the reconstruction of Carthage it was the capital of Roman Africa up to the 430’s when the Visigoths took the city the Roman’s took it back some 70 years later it was the capital of the Exharque of Roman Africa up to the Arab conquests. It was one of the most prosperous and secure province in the empire.

Sounds like Ebola, possibly an earlier iteration.

@ratoimariurs5323

26 күн бұрын

Or an undiscovered cousin of ebola

@judithgockel1001

26 күн бұрын

@@ratoimariurs5323 - there are several hemorrhagic viruses that poke their very ugly heads up now and again, and you may very well be right.

wasn’t there a story about mysterious deaths as part of an expedition to the equator.

Expect the unexpected one day it's ham and bacon next day nothing shaking Perciate the vid prime cut interesting musings stay healthy safe travels 😘

What would radiation poisoning look like?

most over look bleeding and sores as acute scurvy from immune reaction during malnutrition, ie poverty, failed crops etc doubt any vit c in ww1 rations

The translation of Cyprian I found is rather different than yours: "That now the bowels loosened into a flux exhaust the strength of the body, that a fever contracted in the very marrow of the bones breaks out into ulcers of the throat, that the intestines are shaken by continual vomiting, that the blood-shot eyes burn, that the feet of some or certain parts of their members are cut away by the infection of diseased putrefaction, that, by a weakness developing through the losses and injuries of the body, either the gait is enfeebled, or the hearing impaired, or the sight blinded, all this contributes to the proof of faith." - Mortality by Cyprian PS: These are all symptoms of deadly nightshade poisoning.

@rosiehawtrey

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but half the planet isn't going to have the munchies for Belladonna all at once.

@sandpiperr

Жыл бұрын

Nightshade poisoning that spread through an empire that streched all across Europe and seemed to spread from person to person? That's more of a strech than the idea it was Ebola!

@neuralmute

Жыл бұрын

It also sounds like Lassa Fever, which is spread by rodents, and between people. Even with excellent medical care, it has a frightening death rate. Of course, it's currently only known to be endemic in West Africa, but viruses travel...

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

The body has a limited range of symptoms tbh

You see, my question, is if this *is* Ebola, how does Ebola disappear for the best part of 1800 years and how does it get into middle Africa from Rome? Is it climate change that is triggering it again because Rome had a general higher temperature climate and climate temperature is climbing again? I'd look into Roman burial procedures because it was that in Africa - kissing disease corpses 😳🥺🤮 and the like. That would make Ebola/Marburg more likely than flu..

@hillockfarm8404

Жыл бұрын

Rome dragged plenty of Afrikan animals to the city for games and zoos. Add some bushmeat to feed them from a "don't go there the god(s) will punish your whole village place" and you are set. Especially with the changes in weatherpatterns that also show up in that timeperiod. People going hungry change their behaviour as well.

3:20 I don't think this is necessarily the case at all. It could have circulated in from the Middle or Far East or could have been brought to Africa after getting contracted in a European non-Christian maritime city, for all we know. If Africa had been affected by a punishing low-flood season, would there have been as many people travelling south or west of there to trade with the areas most affected by this loss of food? Also "same among others and among us so long as we share the common flesh of the age" outlines that St. Cyprian is not talking about spiritual malady or a disease mostly noted among parishioners. He is educating them that God is not bringing particular punishment upon them or upon Rome Pagan. he is not attempting to "otherize" non-Christians in his language (though if you're critically Marxist, your mind is already made up).

@user-cw3wm9lx7w

8 ай бұрын

That is a very interesting interpretation. It does seem to work though.

Damn is it possible to have these symptoms without Ebola? I'm getting worried XDDDD

@syjiang

Жыл бұрын

Yes it is actually. Hemorrhagic fever is just a presentation of wide tissue tropism of the flavivirus, i.e. it infects a wide variety of cells and cause breakdown of the mucosal barrier. Other pathogens and especially virus can acquire a new receptor entry mechanism when they jump species from animal to humans. So there are plenty of potential for previous known diseases to suddenly manifest pretty horrible symptoms. The Spanish influenza is actually a very good example.

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

No. You have Ebola. 😂

Can you be clear and say AD or BC?

@hollyingraham3980

Жыл бұрын

Um, he talks about Christianity being in the mix, so it's not going to be Before Christ.

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

​@@hollyingraham3980😂

How do we know that it was not just a local plague and that we are exaggerating it?

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

The research is just starting, really, but we’re starting to find dna and other forms of biological evidence on skeletons which tells us it was the same disease. The problem with this one in particular, as opposed to the Justinianic Plague, is that the Romans burned many of the bodies so we have less to work with

Ayyyyeeee

I wonder what caused that climate change & how they solved it?

@Nova-lz2yz

Жыл бұрын

You did not know those OstroGoths and Huns were driving SUVs?

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

​@@Nova-lz2yz😂🎉

@user-cw3wm9lx7w

8 ай бұрын

Presumbly demand for resources and deforestation due to the Roman empire.

This is not the best video to Watch while eating lunch.

👍

🤔👍

3:59 Among us???

whats your ethnicity man? :)

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Well nationally I’m American but afaik that’s not an ethnicity. Just your normal lower middle class white dude

@weyjosh5213

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome thanks for answering g!! had to ask since you sound like captain sinbad in a good way 😆 keep up the content g

@adolphdresler3753

Жыл бұрын

​@Troy Hailey No it isn't

Is this August the Ducks dad??

3:54 among us

boy those Egyptian SUVs must've been real gas guzzlers to make the climate that bad back then

Fitting that a plauge of the body lead to the rise of the plauge of the mind, christianity

@infinitejest441

Жыл бұрын

🥳

@ChibiFemto

Жыл бұрын

Cope more pagan

@scottfitzpatrick1939

Жыл бұрын

@@ChibiFemto spoken like a true love thy neighbor christian 🤣

@ChibiFemto

Жыл бұрын

@@scottfitzpatrick1939 Thanks

Pestilence, inflation, famine, war. Sound familiar? The only thing we're lacking in our time is famine, and with the lack of cheap fertilisers from Russia, this winter may certainly have some in the offing. The end of an economic system, just like the Roman slave-owning system. The end of capitalism. (I accidentally wrote ‘inflammation’ instead of ‘inflation’ which I’ve edited now: Don’t know whether it was a Freudian ‘lapsus calami’ or just the infernal spellchecker.)

Archeology is a soft science. What hard science? You would have to have isolated the pathogen and track it to have "hard science" evidence, and even so, biology is moderately squishy, as sciences go.

@larapalma3744

Жыл бұрын

Moderately squishy 😂 Love it. But flexibility is a strength

> Plagues upon the Earth Sounds like another barnburner. I assume that if I liked "Guns, Germs and Steel" I should like ths?

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Yes. Anything written by Harper is pretty good. His work isn’t without criticism, but that’s not surprising since so much of this is so new

Your videos are really cool, and I enjoy listening to them. However, you speak like your lips are puckered.

Genetically, Ebola didn't exist then.

@ratoimariurs5323

26 күн бұрын

It could be an ancestor or a cousin who knows

15:05 Perhaps it's just me and what I have on my mind these days, but I can almost feel you looking very intensely and meaningfully at your audience while you say this line. Surely not, though. History is all just stuff that happened once and can never happen again.

Try haemorrhagic Small Pox

@user-cw3wm9lx7w

8 ай бұрын

There didn’t appear to be a rash though.

Hospitalized? When they don't have germ theory??😂😊 8:25

As we see today pandemics are much much worse in terms of effects on society than wars. Though I think pandemics that hit in times of peace. Or near enough peace hit even harder. In terms of changes in society.

Well did it come from China too ?

Horrifying, another is leprosy. I feel so sorry for the African countries that still have these diseases in their populations. Eradicating them is priority for WHO. We are all in this together. We are the human race ✌🏻☘️

I can barely imagine what the world might be like now if no man had ever tried to own it all. That was our downfall. None of it is owned by us. ✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️

“The center isn’t holding, Nancy!” -democrats 2024

Not Kyprian but Cyprian… sip, ri,an

@jamescobban857

Жыл бұрын

We do not know how Cyprian himself pronounced his name. Cyprian was an educated Roman who wrote classical Latin and probably spoke with an aristocratic accent, this would imply Kyprian. Pronunciation of Vulgar Latin varied from province to province in the 3rd century. While Latin C is pronounced as S in English, French, and some dialects of Spanish, but is pronounced Ch (tsh) in modern Italian. This suggests that in the central region of the Empire in the 3rd century the bishop's name may have been pronounced by ordinary people as Tsyprian.

Cant be Ebola. It hadn't been engineered yet 😉

Says who