Some clarifications: 1) When I say Wagner didn't invent the concept, I don't mean that he doesn't deserve credit for it. His contributions to the field of leitmotifs are immense, and it's reasonable to say that the idea as it exists today owes a lot to him. I just mean that the concept of associating musical ideas with characters in a narrative predates him. He also apparently didn't actually like the word "leitmotif" and thought analysts were looking too hard for things that he didn't actually put there, so make of that what you will. 2) When I say I don't know whether John Williams did anything "like that" in the Last Jedi score, I mean that very narrowly: I don't know if he used a mangled, constrained version of the Force theme to represent Luke's rejection. I know he did cool stuff with Leitmotifs. He's John Williams. That's like his whole thing. I'm just not sure if he did the specific thing I was describing.

@IsaacMyers1

6 жыл бұрын

What if a darkmotif was the Sam as a leitmotif but played in negative harmony. This could show how the two defined concepts are opposites yet the same, E.G. love and hate.

@JbfMusicGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

One of my, admittedly rather snooty, complaints about the Marvel films is the lack of memorable motifs; would have been really cool to combine loads of them into one huge score for the Avengers films. Unless they have and it went totally over my head! Anyway, I digress, great video man really interesting concept!

@fluffyfluffykatz

6 жыл бұрын

I agree, Marvel films generally haven't had a lot of interesting work regarding motifs, and it would certainly make their cinematic universe much more interesting for us film score nerds. The Avengers Theme itself is pretty memorable and I like it, but it's a rare example of a classic, recurring leitmotif in Marvel movies. That said, a film that's a wonderful exception to this is Black Panther and composer Ludwig Göransson's score. It uses musical elements that aren't traditional, melodic themes, but rather rhythms and sound elements (traditional African talking drum for T'challa, Oakland-style hip-hop for Killmonger, etc.), and it's overall a great example of a Marvel film score done absolutely right (its Kendrick Lamar led soundtrack is also amazing).

@filmNFX1

6 жыл бұрын

Luis López Aren't western. As you said they are traditional in Africa.

@Yungblut

6 жыл бұрын

In that scene of the Last Jedi, when Luke accepts the Force again and "goes to the rescue" he wears dark clothes and the theme that sounds I'm pretty sure is much closer to the Imperial March (Vader's theme) that anything else. But I can't figure out what that means in context yet. (But is the closest to a real darkmotif I could imagine)

The Lord of the Rings trilogy. There's a Good motif ( - _ - a note, go down a tone and back up) and an opposite Evil motif ( _ - _ a note, go up a semitone and back down). The Good motif is in the fellowship's theme, in Rohan's theme, in Aragorn's evolved theme, Gandalf the White's theme and many others. The Evil motif is in the ring's theme and Sauron's theme. Saruman starts with a mixture of both: it's the Good's shape, but the Evil's interval, like it's pretending to be good.

@TheLuizSouza

6 жыл бұрын

Mind blown. Dat soundtrack!

@DamianFloresRF

6 жыл бұрын

Oh... and there's Gollum's theme, which has a melody with a very similar shape to the hobbits' theme, but darker and twisted, and it also has a very different harmony.

@want-diversecontent3887

4 жыл бұрын

100th like.

@anq_b13

4 жыл бұрын

Menciona a Altozano al menos xD

@matthewlynch6658

4 жыл бұрын

This proves that Howard Shore is a flipping genius.

But what about heavy motifs? 🤔

@JariSatta

6 жыл бұрын

Djentmotifs

@eabeeson

6 жыл бұрын

Came here to say this.

@billsemenoff

6 жыл бұрын

same as dark matter!

@RedmarKerkhof

6 жыл бұрын

Those are ulterior motifs.

@DenniWintyr

6 жыл бұрын

Those are in the realm of Iommi

Shurely 'darquemotif'?

@jeffirwin7862

6 жыл бұрын

¿Que? And stop calling me Shirley.

@Kram1032

6 жыл бұрын

I guess if you take the linguisitic origin, it would be more akin to misleading/leading astray vs. leading. So then it would be a Täuschmotif or a Verleitmotif.

@farticusmaximusOG

5 жыл бұрын

whele donę

@Copyright_Infringement

5 жыл бұрын

@@Kram1032 Light : Dark German Spelling : Frenchy Spelling If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other sciënce facts...

Could a darkmotif be harmonic, rather than melodic? Perhaps a character or location has a particular set of chord changes/instrumentation that is repeated, while the melody is changed. Just an idea.

@olihayne3724

6 жыл бұрын

That’s actually something I think John Williams does for the imperial March (Darth Vader’s Theme). The iconic progression goes from a minor chord down a third to another minor chord ( e.g C minor to Ab minor). This harmonic progression is used near the end of Jedi steps from Force awakens and as the final cadence in Anakins theme from the phantom menace!

@shmunkyman33

6 жыл бұрын

If we take that idea I think it would be more like chord qualities than specific chord progressions, because chord progressions in my opinion are still melodic. So for example the hero always has major 7th and 9 chords, while the villain always has diminished chords, but they don't have a specific melody or progression associated with them

@TartarusHimself

4 жыл бұрын

@@hugotessier5138 Steven universe

@numbers3268

3 жыл бұрын

That actually occurs in the Hylics 2 OST by Chuck Salamone! Specifically, Xeno Arcadia at around 1:30 has the same general chord progression in Singing Sand at around 0:59, however the actual notes and instrumentation are different. The chord progression also appears in That's a Big Stick at 1:36, however it has the same exact notes as in Xeno Arcadia, and is therefore more of a conventional leitmotif. Meanwhile, as another example of simple leitmotif, Fancy Meat Computer has the same motif as Them's Fighting Words, both at 1:15, and I think they're both in the same key, though I don't exactly know.

@morrigambist

3 жыл бұрын

The "Ring" motif in Wagner's Ring degenerates across the span of the four operas. The musical line remains, but the associated harmonies become more congested and painful.

One example of your "hidden motif" idea would be from Zimmer's Inception score. In the movie, whenever they enter the dream state, Edith Piaf's "Je Ne Regrette Rien" begins to play (Or at least, that I can remember. It's been a decade) One key plot point is that time slows the deeper in dream land you descend. So the oft-mocked BUUUUUAAAAAAHHHH, BUUUUAHHHHH on euphonium or whatever is actually the same opening notes from the Piaf song, but drastically slower and more menacing.

@augusto7681

6 жыл бұрын

Thats a french horn. How you did remeber of euphonion and not french horn ? I didnt know they are the same notes. Very clever.

@Finetales

6 жыл бұрын

@Augusto If you think those hits could have been played by a single instrument I want to meet the French horn players you've been hearing. Or know what drugs you're taking. (FYI, the score for Inception used 6 horns, 12 trombones, and 4 tubas. I'm assuming all of the trombones and tubas are playing those hits, the horns might be too but it's hard to tell over that wall of bass and contrabass trombones.)

@augusto7681

6 жыл бұрын

Finetales no, i dont thought it was a single instrument. But from all the brass instruments French horn is better known by the strong sound than euphonium.

@Finetales

6 жыл бұрын

Well, like I said, that sound is mostly low brass (trombones and tubas).

@bmartinmusics

6 жыл бұрын

I just did an analysis of this, the foghorn is a digital manipulation of the french horn in the original song. Inception's score is mostly electronic.

I really like your last definition. It's useful, practical, and also ties in to the use of the word "dark" in physics to describe things that we don't currently know, so darkmotifs being leitmotifs that the audience doesn't currently know about, makes a lot of sense. They're leitmotifs that the audience is, at the time, in the dark on being there.

@jamesgrey13

6 жыл бұрын

Then, every motif, being heard for the first time, is a darkmotif!

@extremmefan7305

2 жыл бұрын

​@@jamesgrey13 If the connection is immediately made obvious, then I would say they remain a leitmotif. Think of meeting Lusamine in Pokemon Sun/Moon. Her encounter theme starts playing, and you immediately know that "oh, this is HER track". This is in contrast to Skyward Sword's Ballad of the Goddess, which very subtly tells you something you don't actually know yet, but so subtly that you can't tell exactly what it's telling you yet.

I think one example of a darkmotif can be found in Pink Floyd’s The Wall. The main reoccurring leitmotif in the album (D-E-F-E) appears in many songs in the album like Another Brick In The Wall, In The Flesh, and Hey You (although in a different key). However, in one song The Thin Ice, it plays the leitmotif, except switched around (E-D-F-E). This makes it a darkmotif, because this song takes place before Pink (the main character) starts to build the metaphorical wall around himself, representing the absence of the wall.

One possible example of "darkmotif" is found in a tiny section of "Bring It In, Guys", from Undertale. At one point in the credits, the two skeleton brothers drive past the screen, Papyrus on his dream car and Sans on his tricycle. The main melody here is "Nyeh Heh Heh", Papyrus' theme; but when Sans passes Papyrus and winks at the camera, we get a descending saxophone(?) flourish. Any player watching for the first time might assume this is just a really weird inversion on the main melody of "sans", but it isn't. It's actually a very slight variation on a subtle melody that shows up one time very late into the song "Megalovania". Another example I could think of, from the same game, is hidden in the background of the song "Finale". While the vast majority of the song is made up of repeated variations and expositions on Flowey's main motif "Your Best Friend", there's a brief break in the middle where the main instruments aren't playing any familiar melody, however there are bells in the distant background playing something softly, which are soon joined by horns harmonizing with it. The melody is actually the theme "Memory", but since the home note keeps shifting around unlike the original theme, and none of the instruments playing the melody are in the foreground, a first-time player is very unlikely to notice this. Not to mention, the song "Memory" has only been played 0 to 3 times in the game up to this point, depending on the player's actions; and each with a seemingly conflicted context. It is only during the song "His Theme" that the true connecting tissue of Memory is finally revealed, and the reason for sneaking it into the very distant background of Finale is brought to light.

@Ciurk

Жыл бұрын

this comment needs more attention I was thinking that undertake had stuff like this within it

Anakin's Theme from TMP's OST. It took me about a dozen listens to realize that it's a softer, childlike version of the Imperial March.

@a52productions

6 жыл бұрын

Holy shit, that's cool. It's so well hidden, too!

@chrisbenson9232

6 жыл бұрын

On that note, the parade song at the end of TPM is a uptempo major key version of the Emperor's theme from ROTJ

@solaariz

4 жыл бұрын

Hmm, I thought it only ended with a hint of the Imperial March not a variation of it. I’ll have to have a listen. However, the Naboo parade at the end of the movie is a rendition of the Emperor’s Theme switching out minor chords for major ones.

@solaariz

4 жыл бұрын

Chris Benson oh I see you’d already commented on that Lol my bad.

@Poketoa

2 жыл бұрын

@@chrisbenson9232 And years later, we would realize that, through either sheer luck or John Williams sussing out from the beginning what would end up happening from JJ, the flutes in Rey’s theme can be seen as containing a hidden reference to the Emperor as well, with the Force theme fitting almost perfectly within the string part. At the very least, he had quite a lot of foresight and made Rey’s theme adaptable to however the trilogy ended up shaking out.

Undertale has loads of examples of 'darkmotifs'. Songs appear hugely slowed down (Undertale's slowed down to The Choice, Your Best Friend is slowed down to But Nobody Came, etc.), quietly in the background (Gaster's Theme appears in a couple things conveying how he's been scattered throughout time), converted between time signatures (a version of Heartache in 4/4 appears during ASGORE) and warped and distorted in various other ways for subtle references and connections (some of which never would've been there otherwise).

@MrMisterkrazy

6 жыл бұрын

My personal favorite example is in Finale, the final phase of the "final" boss fight, which is mostly just a remix of the boss character's motif which had been heard much earlier in the game (and earlier in the boss fight). In one of the quieter moments of the piece, though, another motif is subtly playing. As a player, you've heard this motif before, but probably haven't made a connection to a particular character yet... and if you did, you might think that this character has absolutely NOTHING to do with what's currently happening or who you're currently fighting... or does he? ;) [clarification spoilers below the Read more] (Not sure how much space I need to trigger a Read more) If you've played the game, I'm talking about the "Memory" / "His Theme" motif, which I'm pretty sure represents Asriel. You can discover in a second playthrough that Flowey actually is, complicatedly, Asriel. Sneaky!

@abramthiessen8749

6 жыл бұрын

You beat me to the Undertale leitmotif comment. Where is Ghaster's Theme hidden if you don't mind me asking?

@SleepSoul

6 жыл бұрын

Abram Thiessen There've been videos made showing individual examples. The ones I can remember are as a reeeal quiet piano backing part in Dating Fight and Song That Might Play When You Fight Sans. (I doubt it's unintentional that both of these relate to the skeleton brothers)

@kbjwes77

6 жыл бұрын

One of the things that is frequently mentioned when discussing Toby Fox's Undertale soundtrack is his amazing use of motifs. He really nailed being able to create a memorable motif and use it in a variety of creative and intuitive ways, altering the motif for dark, happy or exciting moments while maintaining its recognizable structure and sound.

@SleepSoul

6 жыл бұрын

_kbjwes77_ I find the leitmotifs overused or misused a few times, but I compliment how cleverly he otherwise puts them into practice (and how well he writes them, too). I'd particularly single out the main motif, from Once Upon A Time, Hopes And Dreams, etc... It's _extremely_ memorable, even though, impressively, the main part of it only uses basic, neutral intervals (root, octave, fourth, fifth, and second). The fact that even within such a limited framework he made something unique by employing a high apex and octave leap is pretty smart to me, and it's rewarded by a bunch of different recontextualisations, reharmonisations, etc. that are still totally recognisable because of how strong a motif it is.

I really like the idea of a darkmotif as a “hidden leitmotif”, carrying a reference that you’re not supposed to get yet. I’m imagining all the cool ways you could have the darkmotif sort of “resolve itself” into the leitmotif when the reveal happens, emphasizing the plot revelation.

I would say a darkmotif is when you use a leitmotif, but not with the expected action. Like, playing the leitmotif for Jaws, but it turns out it's not the shark, it's some prankster with a fake shark fin.

I think this is a marvellous concept, I wish to hear more about things like that in the future. Now, here's what it reminded me of: In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, when Uncle Vernon first sees the letter adressed at Harry, we hear a variation of the "Flying/Nimbus2000 Theme", but heavier, austere, and can't quite take off. Interestingly enough, the song first appeared in a scene prior to that, when Harry releases the snake from the zoo. So it wasn't even stablished as anything remotely airborn, but rather... as an introduction to some mischievous fun inherent to magic, which the Dursleys obviously are lacking. In Chamber of Secrets, this same "Dursley's Theme", or... a darkmotif of the flying theme, can be heard again, when Uncle Vernon is bolting down iron bars on Harry's window, with the same meaning of repression of magic.

@winterdragon4125

5 жыл бұрын

There's a similar joke with the books themselves- the street the Dursleys live on is Privet Drive. A privet is a type of flowering plant with a meaning in the language of flowers- "prohibition."

@henrique88t

4 жыл бұрын

@@winterdragon4125 Cool, I always wondered about why JK had chosen that plant. And I think it's no coincidence it also soulds like private. Its root comes from a Latin word which also resulted in "deprived", but that's quite a stretch now.

You made me lol at 2:45 Also, I read somewhere about something similar to your idea in My Little Pony. Bear with me. I believe there was a character disguised as another one who is named Cadence, and before we found out that it wasn't the real Cadence, we got a musical number that ended with a deceptive cadence.

@MrDuncanBelfast

6 жыл бұрын

Not only that, but during This Day Aria, the parts sung by Real Cadence end with an authentic cadence, and the parts sung by impostor Cadence end with a deceptive cadence.

@iLikeTheUDK

6 жыл бұрын

Music puns are the best puns. Also was there an instance where a character licked something or said something about licking and then in the music there was...you know what?

@Gumshoesamurai

6 жыл бұрын

The. . . LICK?

@apanapandottir205

6 жыл бұрын

Never trust someone that won't partake in any cake!

@user-fl5wl9zf2d

6 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah, you "read somewhere"?

Wow, it took me about 30 seconds to get the joke with darkmotifs. The problem is as a german I never thought about understanding Leit-motif as light-motif. I just see the meaning as in "leiten" (to lead) and motif which is the same word in german and english.

@azuregriffin1116

4 жыл бұрын

Ich wusste nie, dass 'leiten' 'to lead' auf Englisch ist. - ein Deutsch lernender Student.

@lordsqueak

4 жыл бұрын

it's the same in swedish, well, only its in swedish.

What if it were like a musical darkmatter? Hard to observe, clumpy, doesn't interact very much and yet still has a significant impact on the universe.

@eshafto

5 жыл бұрын

Okay, leave off clumpy and not interacting and I think that's precisely the right analogy. It's "dark" only in that you don't see it directly. I was half expecting him to settle on that reference.

@jamesbedwell8793

3 жыл бұрын

That’s just the lower brass and bassoons my dude, they could be playing anything and you wouldn’t notice, but it somehow holds the piece together

The video says that the theme is Zelda's Lullaby played backwards in a different key, but the music theory nerd inside me wants to say that it's a retrograde-inversion (i.e. both backwards and upside-down). As an emerging film composer, this is why I love thematic transformation and its many practical applications for narrative storytelling via music. 😋 Keep up the great videos.

@12tone

6 жыл бұрын

As far as I know, it's just retrograde, isn't it? The interval structure is maintained, not inverted.

@quartertuned

6 жыл бұрын

12tone True, but I noticed that in Zelda's Lullaby, there's an ascending interval of a second which is treated as a passing tone, whereas in the theme from Skyward Sword, that interval is descending and treated as a neighboring tone. I'd say that would constitute an inversion. But then again, I could reading too much into this, which is exactly what Liszt warned against.

@quartertuned

6 жыл бұрын

Update: It's not a retrograde inversion. It's just retrograde. Though I did find out in the course of my research that the retrograde inversion of Zelda's Lullaby is far more contextually accurate compared to the theme from Skyward Sword as it's written.

Slightly more obvious than the Ballad of the Goddess, but in Breath of the Wild there's parts of previous Zelda songs hidden in many of the tracks. The song that plays in the Temple of Time has a very slowed down Song of Time as it's chord progression, for example.

Did anyone else catch that he wrote "Elephant" in code at 6:24 ? I love the videos, keep it up!!😫😫

My jaw dropped with Zelda’s Lullaby.

In Batman v. Superman Superman's theme song and Lex Luther's them song Mirror each other.

@augusto7681

6 жыл бұрын

The themes for jaws and star wars have very obvious leitmotifs and they repeat every time in the movie. But in the score of batman, superman, transformers and stuff i can’t remember the music I heard. In fact I have a vague memory of "epic orchestral music" but nothing memorable. The only film i remember paying attention to the music is Black Panther because the "Leitmotifs" of the villain is a trap/hiphop song that contrast with the rest of the score.

@daviddraper6468

6 жыл бұрын

Augusto killmonger’s theme is a fantastic track

@TheTophat22

6 жыл бұрын

Lui s If only Lex Luthor had enough character to mirror Superman in the story itself~

@JoonasD6

6 жыл бұрын

If only Superman had enough character to be worth mirroring.

@TheTophat22

6 жыл бұрын

Joonas Mäkinen Yo All-Star Superman is a good book tho-

You only mention it briefly, but the "leit-" comes from "leiten" (German for "lead/guide", and actually etymologically related to the English "lead"). I want to stress it again, because in point of fact that makes the Ballad of the Goddess an actual opposite of a leitmotif. It is quite literally misleading/misguiding. Pretending to be something it is not. BTW, the German word for the opposite of Leitmotiv, if it existed, would be Fehlleitmotiv. (A "fail-lead-motif", if translated literally.)

@alex_evstyugov

6 жыл бұрын

Another great antonym that we could use is "irreführen". Irreführmotiv!

@leidenfrost3821

6 жыл бұрын

Or an Irrmotif

@alex_evstyugov

6 жыл бұрын

+Leidenfrost oh yeah shorter is better, but we have to be careful because it starts getting ambiguous there. Irrmotiv is not necessarily a motif that confuses you (das Dich verwirrt), but might also be a motif that is itself confused (das selber am (Herum)irren ist). And indeed I would argue that in the absence of any context, or failing that it's an established term already, the second reading is the default one. A motif that's wandering around aimlessly. Which of course is not something we're after. The kind of motif we're looking to name is always the agent by definition. Actively trying to mislead us, knowing full well what it is doing, for what reason and to what end.

@bearship9

6 жыл бұрын

So an opposite of a leitmotif would be a part of the score that misleads the audience

@alex_evstyugov

6 жыл бұрын

Well, not just any part. A specific and recurring short collection of pitches or intervals that represents a person or a thing, a feeling or a concept. An idea. In our case, the wrong idea. Zelda's Lullaby, of course, is strictly speaking not a motif but an entire melody or theme. But the distinction can be muddy, and Wagner himself didn't much care for it, so wevs. It'll make do as a working example. Allegedly Debussy made fun of some piece of Wagner's, saying that it was not music but a phone directory. Dunno if that's an urban legend or not, but either way, what we're ideally looking to create is a phone book full of wrong numbers.

I vote the last one. I've heard that John Williams did do that in episode I with the emperor's theme at the end of the movie signally that this victory is only the stepping block for his rise to power.

Absolutely love your videos. Bohemian Rhapsody analysis please.

@MisterAppleEsq

6 жыл бұрын

You're the third person to ask this (assuming you're not all the same person, which is possible), but it's coming when he reaches 500k subscribers.

@tonybates7870

6 жыл бұрын

Imagine how fast he'd have to talk to fit all that in, though . . .

I think the best interpretation would be a theme that is introduced within the larger work that is explicitly NOT recurring - that is, it only appears once - and is fundamentally distinct from other compositions in the work, thus it does not represent any particular recurring theme, but rather a deliberate shift *away from* them, for the sake of contrast. There is a great example in the score of one of my favorite video games - Final Fantasy IX - it’s called “You’re Not Alone”, and another KZread channel, Game Score Fanfare, did an excellent video about this very song and topic that I HIGLY recommend.

The love theme from Attack Of The Clones (Across The Stars) is basically an upside down version of the main Star Wars theme, which is also supposed to be Luke’s theme.

Great video! The first example of this concept that comes to mind is by the band The Dear Hunter. They're known for their multi-album epic that incorporates a LOT of leitmotifs. Every character, scene, event, and emotion has a musical theme related to it. In Act V, their most recent offering in the story, the protagonist professes his undying love for his mistress, a woman he's pined over for the past three albums, in the major-key song "Melpomene." Later in the album, in "The Flame (Is Gone)," the villains realize the only way to take full control over the protagonist is to kill the object of his affection. This is never explicitly stated, but the song fades out with a subdued, minor-key reprise of Melpomene, implying her death. It's one of the most powerful moments of music I've heard.

@MurzMKII

6 жыл бұрын

Ari Eschtruth I immediately thought of TDH as well. At the end "King of Swords" on Act IV, there's that little piece of transitionary music and it doesn't mean anything until you listen to Act V and you realize what was playing was a Major-key version of "The Most Cursed of Hands."

Indie games are generally filled with these because it allows for more musical diversity without having to compose separate pieces, which costs time and resources. Most indie games don't have a musical department. Undertale and Doki Doki Literature Club have a few.

@user-om9jl5jv5y

6 жыл бұрын

Deldarel Like Sayo-Nara, you mean?

@deldarel

6 жыл бұрын

Jup, but there are also less obvious ones like 'Just Monika' which has the same shape as the main theme, but invokes different emotions. This also supports the hypothesis that, every time you hear the main theme in the game, it's Monika playing it.

Hey 12tone, really appreciate the content you create! i thought about this as i watched your video about negative time signatures and now about a hidden motif/darkmotif: one could understand a negative note (adding up to a negative bar with a negative time signature) or a hidden motif as an instruction while composing a piece, especially in the generative or stochastic manner. so for example '-b' could mean: choose one pitch of all pitchclasses except b! or as Xenakis uses in his stochastic music often an arbitrary value unequal 0 as an offset for different stochastic functions to determine note length (for example 1/4) or pitch (c3), a '-1' regarding pitch with the the duration of '-1/8' just means a b with the length of an 1/8. so a negative note/time signature/darkmotif could be a way to introduce negations in the compositional process.

Fastest click of my week! You always make my Fridays that much more enjoyable, Cory. Thanks for making music theory so approachable and enjoyable.

I honestly had to pause the video and gather myself when you made the Ballad/ Lullaby comparison. That completely blew my mind!

2:07 I was thinking maybe something along the lines of a non-musical gesture that acts as a leitmotif, such as a wolves' howl, thunder, or earth-shaking footsteps

@arthurdamato2668

4 жыл бұрын

Like the horse whinnies every time Frau Blucher is mentioned in Young Frankenstein?

This, by far, is my favourite video to date. I love the idea of using a sort of distortion to a leitmotif to represent something different in the story, and as I'm currently working on some scoring projects, I'm more tempted to add these things in.

A very interesting idea and worth checking into and try working with it and develop it even further. Great vid!

You are so brave to do this vidéo and it was awesome ! thanks !!

Love this idea! My thoughts are this: a darkmotif could be a sort of characterizing setup either without the payoff you're expecting or without a payoff at all. Or perhaps you used a theme at the beginning of a film in a specific circumstance, but because of the character's personal development their feelings about that circumstance changes. When a similar circumstance arises later, you might setup like you're going to go in the same direction but pivot to better suit the internal change the character is feeling. So the introduction of new material that was handed off by the expectation of previous material. I think you may have said as much in some form, I'm just rambling my thoughts at this point. Love your videos!!

5:15 Float down here too, you will.

Now you are just making stuff up! Awesome video as usual

I love your proposal of what a darkmotif might be, but I also especially enjoyed your drawings this time. Great video!

I love this episode. It's got me thinking of a piece I played in high school orchestra. I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the composition or the composer, but it was variations on a well-known song, only it evolved in reverse, with the most extreme variations first, and the composition evolving slowly and building musical tension until, at the coda, the original melody, "When Johnny Comes Marching Home," becomes apparent and reaches a very satisfying resolution at the end. I wish I remembered the details because this video has me thinking about that piece, and I want to hear it again. At any rate, your exploration of what a darkmotif could be made me think of that composition.

You are a true genius, thank you for sharing your knowledge on musical theory

i totally support this whole peer review thing going on with the big music theory youtubers

Mind=blown... I've played the game numerous times, played the music and even arranged it at times, but never caught it. I love this channel. XD

I think this approach to theory is so much more interesting than much of anything else I've seen.

Great stuff, here 💥👍... Dark energy, dark matter, dark motivs... Yes, naming all kinds of ''motivs'' based on their intrinsic story telling function... and all based on an introductive characterial 'main' motiv (to''musicalize'' a person, a place, ... whatever)... we can than change always a little bit due to a changing (story) context... You did a great job again, 12tone 👊🖐️🙋

Pigpen Cipher at 6:25 spells "Elephant". The effort you put into these vids doesn't go unnoticed!

@doctorbobstone

6 жыл бұрын

I figured someone else would notice and decode that, too. I was quite amused.

When I first saw the title of your video I immidiately thought of these deep, rumbly sounds that play often in filmscores at suspense scenes without a real meldoy but still instantly recognisable as DANGER. However I like your interpretation as well! Thanks for enleiten us :)

your buddy sideways has a video on a darkmotif in der Erlkönig. really cool video, man :)

I think what you described as a dark motif is correct, yet it also seems they are brief musical ideas that make your emotions go in and out like a coda or crescendo. Thanks for the video sir!

Darkmotif example (maybe): In Bruckner's 4th symphony, there is a constant rhythm of du-ple tri-pl-et. The first movement has this in dramatic quarter notes, then the third movement, Scherzo, has it twice as fast and as a fanfare. Then in the final movement it convinbines the two. Probably wouldn't notice unless you saw the score

I really enjoyed this completely theoretical idea analysis. I would love to see more things like this.

I mean, I've always liked the idea of a piece of film or other visual medium/performance art using as lack of music, or of musical silence, to signify someone or something, and have that be a recurring theme. Like, silence in backing score is totally used for effect, already, so to basically use it as a sort of leitmotif could be interesting, if not worthy of being a "darkmotif."

@quantumsigmaqed6312

6 жыл бұрын

Blankmotif

@ultimateninjaboi

6 жыл бұрын

QuantumSigma QED if that isn't already a term for this, it should be. X3. (I honestly don't know if it is or isnt).

I have to say I really enjoyed the dark and light force theme you created - I think this is definitely what a dark motif would be and I think it’s a powerful compositional and performance tool

The revelation at 5:45 was cool, haha good job!

The wrong rhythm of the Force theme is gonna kill me, even if it is simpler. The whole theme is based around tying the note into the first note of triplets.

Thank you for including Ballad of the Goddess!!! I knew the ballad was Zelda's Lullaby, but I didn't know the term before this! On a similar note, the first 3 notes of the Lost Woods is the first 3 notes of Song of Healing, backwards. The two songs reverse the opposite feelings. This isn't quite enough to e a motif, but it's still interesting.

I think it could be an absence, where the leitmotif is in every song about, say, a character, but then the leitmotif is suddenly removed, showing a shift of power or a loss of control.

That's an interesting take on the idea- I'm really reminded of a specific and interesting example that came to me pretty immediately. In the MMO The Elder Scrolls Online, I remember hearing in a discussion with the game's composer, Brad Derrick, that in a bunch of the music he put in variations of the main elder scrolls motif (the one in the main themes for morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim) that could be as obvious as directly playing them out, or as hidden by playing the thing backwards or even 'upside down'. I've only been able to identify a few examples of that in the soundtrack for the game, but knowing those ones are there adds a new layer of meaning to some of the songs that play there.

I love the Pigpen cypher at the end...itself a dark motif of sorts!

Not gonna lie, that connection between Zelda's Lullaby and the Ballad of the Goddess just blew my mind! I'm so going to keep an eye out for similar pieces of composition. Great video!

I think darkmotif's would be like the negative space of leitmotif's, like there's silence at certain points to signify a specific thing, or maybe accompaniment in the piece comes in when a character leaves or something.

“It’s not meant to be heard the first time, but can add depth and layer to a relisten.” Me, a writer: So, it’s musical foreshadowing.

Ok that Zelda example at the end actually gave me goosebumps. Fascinating discovery!

JFC... Your "combine force themes" at 5:05 - that brought actual chills. I could visualize *EXACTLY* the moment in the movie you mean for that to be. And it works _perfectly_ there. I had to watch that bit of the movie real quick just to make sure it wasn't originally that way. (I wasn't. But I really want a full Williams orchestral version of it now. Where it starts with just horns, and builds to full orchestra.) He does use a modified "force theme" there, but not the "dueling force themes combine" like you suggest.

I can't believe I never knew about the link between the Ballad of the Goddess and Zelda's Lullaby. That blew my mind. (Would be interested in more video game music analysis too in the future, if a cool example comes to mind)

I like how you used Pigpen Cipher to spell "elephant" at 6:20. Sorry, I just _really_ like ciphers and codes as well as music, so you have really made my day.

And the pigpen cypher'd text at the end is ELEPHANT. Of course. Took me a moment to decode that, which was probably what you intended. I was thrown off a little because I learnt a slight variant that has the X before the dotted #.

In the Inpector Morse episodes the name of the murderer is sometimes rhythmically in the music score as a Morse Code.

It would be great if you did more videos like this from time to time as they are very interesting and enjoyable.

Hah, I was watching the Musica Analytica stream earlier, and there was a bit of leitmotif talk there. Your idea is interesting, and I bet there are other ways you could hide a leitmotif, like by changing the rhythm significantly, or displacing some of the notes by an octave, or using a familiar rhythm with different notes, or switching the order of sections of phrases, or using a melody as a bassline. And now I'm going to keep randomly coming up with ways to hide a leitmotif for ages.

I think the force theme was originally meant to be Ben Kenobi's theme, but got edited into the wrong places; like the Binary Sunset, a scene where there is no Obi-Wan Kenobi; so it could no loner be his motif. Although I really can't remember where I heard this, so it could be total nonsense!

@frankyi8206

5 жыл бұрын

This video would support that idea: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eXqB26-xfbyqfs4.html

I was thinking maybe it's a non sequitur motif like the King George sections in Hamilton, showing detachment from the rest of the [form of media].

@threenplustwo9105

6 жыл бұрын

Suddenly, a RotMG profile picture!

@slendeaway7730

6 жыл бұрын

ThreeNPlusOne eyy We need a video on the rotmg theme.

From kinda outside this video's point: The movie "Conspiracy Theory" (M. Gibson, J. Roberts), the tune "Can't take my eyes off of you" gets tossed around as a recurring theme. In the very high point of the movie in the end, the instrumental melody of the bridge is very prominent in the score. Can't remember the minute mark, but you'll hear it. Best regards from Finland, your channel is amazing!

My thought from the title was the absence of certain sounds or frequencies that would signify a character. For example, when the bad guy enters the scene the melody omits the note C, or all chords omit the 3rd. Another version would be the relatively common device in video games where a near-constant background noise, such as birds or crickets chirping, is suddenly absent when the bad guy is close to you. I've also seen EQ curves used as a form of darkmotif. When a certain character appears you no longer hear anything above 2000hz, for example.

If you watch the "Victory Parade" at the end of Star Wars: Episode 1: you get a darkmotif of the Empire march.

5:03 Harmonizing the force theme in a row of parallel fifths xD Great idea, you rebel ;) I like that!

Write your own music theory book, please, I need it in my life

Anakin’s theme in Phantom Menace has the Imperial march buried inside it.

Here's a fun one: Samaritan's theme from Person of Interest as a darkmotif of the Machine's theme. In the Blu-Ray bonus feautre "Music of Interest" they go into detail about how it was composed from the Machine's theme.

This is awesome! I'll certainly be doing something like this!

Really liked this one!

One example of this (I think) is a motif that’s used very commonly in my hero academia with moments between all might and deku, taking different shape, accompaniment, and tonality to fit the moment, sometimes happy and unassuming, and sometimes foretelling of a desperate act of heroism. It’s the closest example I can think of at the moment, but I like the idea of this overall as a way to use motifs in more than just one context and imply change in a mood or character

First off, I appreciate your videos, your style of story-telling and the thought you put into them. These kinds of thought experiments are interesting, and certainly worth pursuing to see what kinds of ideas emerge. However, like the negative time signature idea, my observations are that they don't really yield anything beyond what already exists (either in means of exposition or composition). As you explored the different possibilities of a dark motif it really kept coming back to the same thing: this is a leitmotif, but altered. I don't know if describing any of them as a darkmotif would be any more illuminating (haha) or provide any additional information than simply stating "this is an altered leitmotif, which represents X change to Y." I also think it's worth mentioning that the altered Force motif you suggested could very easily be talked about in terms of isorhythm/talea. Regardless, sometimes the process supersedes the importance of the result! and it was entertaining watching you work through the process.

Bohemian Rhapsody analysis please.

@MisterAppleEsq

6 жыл бұрын

Someone already said this, almost word for word, but anyway, it's coming when 12tone reaches 500k subscribers, if I recall correctly.

@McDemcio

6 жыл бұрын

That's bullshit, we want it now XD

@user-om9jl5jv5y

6 жыл бұрын

McDemcio and we want it all?

Great video as always. I think an excellent example of a so-called ‘darkmotif’ is the barely recognizable reprise of the “counting to nine” leitmotif from Hamilton in “Washington on Your Side”. It plays under Burr’s refrain, “It must be nice / It must be nice / To have Washington on your side.” It’s at about ¼ its usual melodic rhythm and hangs on every other note for a long time, turning the leitmotif we associate with dueling into a brooding undercurrent that builds throughout the song. It finally culminates in, “SOUTHERN MOTHERFUCKIN’ DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICANS!” which is perhaps the most explosive line in the whole show. My thoughts on this matter largely come from Howard Ho’s series on the music of Hamilton in case anyone’s interested.

For a moment ì was afraid that you didn't know the meaning of "Leitmotiv" ... glad you do and explained it well! There are more German words with Leit-: Leitung, Leitstelle, Leithammel, ... It all has something to do with leading something, so the opposite could also be "Folgemotiv" - follow motif ...

When seeing the title, I immediately thought of very recognizable melodies or motifs that appears once but never return. They're not that common, and the only example off the top of my head is a very catchy melody from the 3rd movement of Svendsen's 1st symphony. It's so catchy, it could've been an old video game tune. It plays once, is unrelated to the other material in the movement and never comes back. It's mysterious. You mention no one doing leitmotifs like Wagner before him, but I'm pretty sure no one topped him since either. Every time I look at a page from The Ring, it's so dense with motifs, it's hard to fathom it was done by a mortal human being. And that's pretty much Wagner, his achievements are crazy.

Mahler definitely does this in Das Klagende Lied, in the third movement. The 1st movement's main lietmotif comes back but every time it's played it's by offstage instruments and it gets more warped, until the final part where it reveals its dark and twisted meaning by playing the whole the backwards and the instruments seem to play intervals inverted, or upside down.

Burr's Darkmotif would actually be a great comic relief moment.

in star wars episode 3 you hear manipulated versions of the imperial march whenever anakin treads too far into his darkside, as such when he attacked the sandpeople or his epithomy in the chancellors office

I have come up with my own way of picturing a darkmotif. So, as a Leitmotif is, it's a musical phrase that expresses an idea or character, so when the listener hears that theme, they think of that character. What if the darkmotif was a motif that usually plays in the back of, alongside, or before a leitmotif. The listener would hear the darkmotif, which would signify to expect something, but when the leitmotif, or a different leitmotif comes on, it's like a shock factor, where the listener wasn't expecting for a different character to show up. It sort of adds emphasis in a way, and does convey meaning, but a reverse meaning to the leitmotif, since you expect one thing, but get the opposite, or the absence of that, just like how darkness is the opposite or absence of light.

A similar thing (though not done through changing the notes) is done in Sweeney Todd as foreshadowing of the beggar woman's identity; part of the music in "poor thing" is the beggar woman's theme slowed down enough to be unrecognizable the first time you hear it.

A note on absence as a recurring theme: There's a really neat analysis of Julius Eastman's 1980 concert as the composer in residence at Northwestern University which notes how in each of the three pieces presented, while the pieces are largely tonal, each of them wind up using and emphasising all of the notes of the twelve-tone gamut over the course of the body of the piece... save for one, which is different in each piece, and which in two of them appears at the very end in a final grand gesture. The absence is in each case thematically appropriate given the political context of the pieces, but it's best understood by looking up the paper in question.

when i think of the opposite of a theme/leitmotiv, i think chords, ambience, texture, ... what springs to mind is the vibrato that can be heard in game of thrones whenever Khaleesi gets angry or has Targaryen tendencies showing on screen. the music isn't really melodic, but the overall sound has a storytelling aspect that is in many ways similar to a leitmotiv in terms of composition and filmmaking. the aspects you've summed up so far to me seem like still, regular "leit"motivs, but used in different ways.

What about a reiteration/warped version of a Leitmotif used to communicate the disparity between the character on screen an the already established counterpart?

I actually do like the idea of something but on screen being conveyed through music. Like for example, in the winter soldier, after their first fight when Steve finds out bucky’s still alive, the winter soldier theme plays as the camera zooms in on Steve’s face, giving you the sense that Bucky is running through his mind

the soundtrack of the arrival could be considered something like that. on first view the music seems like it has a surreal function, but as the movie progresses and we undestrand what the movie is trying to say we start to understand the music too, retroactively giving a different meaning to the score of the first half of the movie

John Williams and especially Star Wars is an excellent place to look for examples of this. I didn't notice it until I had watched the force awakens a few times but Kylo Ren's theme is basically the Imperial March but inverted since he's trying and generally failing to finish the work of his grandfather.

WHAT IF??? A “dark motif” was a way to hint at a character’s secret, rather than the character’s straightforward personality?