Shannon is precisely correct about Chaosium getting D&D for Thieves World thanks to Deities & Demigods. Can’t believe I forgot to mention it. Also I mixed 3rd & 4th edition with 2nd & 3rd but hey it was 40 years ago. Thieves World was Chaosium’s biggest seller for several years. So thanks to the Blumes for helping keep Chaosium afloat in the early 80s.

@paulaseabee8442

3 жыл бұрын

I treasure my battered box edition of Thieves World. The random encounters can create a scenario on their own.

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

@@paulaseabee8442 That box was one of the best not-RQ/not-Cthulhu things Chaosium ever made. I do kind of wonder if it resonates at all with modern gamers, though. Thieves World has been moribund for quite a long time now and the attempted line relaunch back in the early 2000s seems to have been a flop. Really a shame, I quite liked the shared-world anthology fad in the old days. TW, Liavek, the Fleet, those War World CoDominion books. Don't see things like that these days often.

@murdockscott

3 жыл бұрын

Hi there Sandy, we have some mutual friends and I believe we have met once or twice so it was great to get your personal take on the history of this book that I have such a great fondness for. I had one of the first editions when I was young and because my early life was so tumultuous, I have no recollection of what happened to it. For many years I have been trying to replace it but finding a copy in good condition, at a reasonable price, and with the right number of pages, is a pain. It’s fun to know the story behind this from a reliable source and I am glad to hear it was much more low key than some or the rumors would make it out to be.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@Alien Alien bald is beautiful

@Michael-ue3sq

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the history and all of your work on the early RPGs!

“Using the code from the constable’s notebook, you are able to open the professor’s trunk. Within you find the professor’s diary, a worn copy of Unaussprechlichen Kulten, and most dangerous of all, a first-printing of Deities & Demigods...” *lightning flashes*

Thank you, Seth, for publishing Sandy's recollection of events. Sandy is a giant of the RPG industry and deserves more recognition than he gets.

James M. Ward has provided his answer. "Deities & Demigods I’m going to print this out once a year for the rest of my years. I absolutely hate it when ignorant people say TSR/me acted in copyright infringement for the Melnibonean and Lovecraft sections of the book. When I was given the assignment for that book I listed the various pantheons that I wanted to use. Gary noted that maybe the Lovecraft and Elric sections might be a problem. He gave me the Arkham House and Michael Morcock addresses and I immediately wrote them explaining what I was doing and asking for their permission to include their material. Wonder of wonders I got two letters back giving me permission to use their work. I foolishly gave those two letters to the lawyers at TSR. They might still be in some lost file at Wizards. I would kill for them now. Anyway we printed up the book and it sold great. We then got a cease and desist letter from Chaosium. I don’t blame them a bit, however they didn’t know about the two letters. TSR would have won a court case hands down. However, the company wasn’t rich at that point and Brian Blume didn’t want to go to California, get a California lawyer, and spend time and money winning the case. I went nuts because I had done way more than I was supposed to in clearing the way for those two licenses used in the book I wrote. I even offered to write two more pantheons free of charge, but the Blumes didn’t want to bother. I fumed for years. Now, when people talk on line about TSR in copyright violation it presses my maximum angry button. Maybe some of my facebook friends can pass along this word as time goes on so that my blood pressure levels can say in the normal range. Now this might seem like a rant and it is. However, when people say TSR was in infringement they are calling me a plagiarizer. I consider myself a very honorable man. I would never, ever steal material that was not my own. I will not put up with that moniker. Thanks for listening." facebook.com/james.m.ward.7/posts/1748239788594322

@seannicolson136

3 жыл бұрын

Michael Moorcock confirmed his part of this in an interview I listened to.

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

@@seannicolson136 Yeah, but the irritating thing with this kind of myth is that you have to keep repeating the denials over and over because there's always some jackass who doesn't get the message and propagates the lie to a new generation.

@jwigant

3 жыл бұрын

I was born in 84 and this book was one of the few dnd books in the house. Not sure which version I had but I have spent hours reading and imagining the possibilities of gods and demigods in a campaign. Great book!

@mandodelorian4668

3 жыл бұрын

@@richmcgee434 Sadly, this seems to be how it always works, the misinformation takes root and seems to persist no matter what.

@UrsaFrank

3 жыл бұрын

@david_Jack just going through the DM david's blog post from the video description and just thought I'd mention that the post links to this same facebook entry

Seth, you said you picked up that copy of Deities & Demigods from a used book store in 2000? I sold mine (with a lot of other AD&D1 material) to Recycled Books in Denton, TX in 2000. If that's where you acquired that copy, it may have been mine at one time.

@SSkorkowsky

3 жыл бұрын

As a matter of fact I did buy it at Recycled Books in Denton, TX around that time (it was 20 years ago, so specific dates are a bit fuzzy). You'll be happy to know your old book is in good hands and was well-loved.

@academyofgeekartsandsciences

3 жыл бұрын

@@SSkorkowsky I am glad someone who could really appreciate it ended up with it.

@Spellweaver5

2 жыл бұрын

If that's really what happened (not doubting your words, just it might've been a different book still), then it's a truly heartwarming story.

@jasonGamesMaster

2 жыл бұрын

@@Spellweaver5 Totally agree! It is a crazy coincidence, but weird shit happens. Even if its not actually the one, I choose to believe it is :D

@Phyrenia

2 жыл бұрын

@@jasonGamesMaster Aye. I may never meet the Ken Christiansen which owned my 1e PH before me...

I still have the original "illegal" edition snatched from the book burning flames.

@nooctip

3 жыл бұрын

And did you use your satanic powers gained through an unholy pct with the Bloombergs to get it?

@Dracopol

3 жыл бұрын

@@nooctip The Blum brothers! Bloomberg is an evil satanic business news network...

@TheGiantRobot

3 жыл бұрын

Are the edges seared?

@nehukybis

3 жыл бұрын

I still have the 1st ed copy I bought in 1980. I must have read it cover to cover dozens of times. Its spine is basically gone and the cardboard cover is frayed and wrinkled, but the book still has all its pages. All the pages fell out of my WOC 5th ed D&D PH about a week after I bought it.

@PungiFungi

3 жыл бұрын

I still have my copy too, and several years ago, happened upon a second copy in a used book store for cheap, which I immediately snapped up.

8:47 I love the fact that the conversation with the Blumes isn't about how to resolve the conflict but instead happily informing Chaosium of their ability to sue someone else into the ground over this

@danhelsting6308

3 жыл бұрын

May they rot in hell for that.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

I know right?

@elbruces

3 жыл бұрын

Making sleazy business moves is apparently all they ever knew how to do.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbruces Hey at least they gave us Gamma World.

@elbruces

3 жыл бұрын

@@SandyofCthulhu Great for one-shots but like zero people ever ran very extensive Gamma World campaign. Shout out to Macho Women With Guns while we're at it.

Note about the story of "now you can sue Fritz Lieber for big bucks in damages", not only does it tell you a lot about the Blumes, but it wouldn't work anyway because Fritz Lieber was flat broke. One story (possibly on wiki, not sure where I read it) was that TSR gave him a bit of cash for this book due to his straits, but I doubt the Blumes would sign off on that.

I have the 17 pantheons version. The Lovecraft and Melnibone' Pantheons are excellent!

@AlVainactual

3 жыл бұрын

Build a dungeon and put it in the final room, cuz people are gonna want it!

@TKFKU

Жыл бұрын

@@AlVainactual You can pick them up pretty easily over the internet, even if pdf.

@garypotter5569

Жыл бұрын

1st Edition was the only free edition.

I still love that old Erol Otus art. I knew i was looking at a D&D product when i saw his art.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

I think his best work was his Lovecraft stuff in Deities & Demigods. His imagery of Cthulhu was iconic.

@notreallydavid

3 жыл бұрын

@@SandyofCthulhu It's unsurpassable.

@fredfreddy8684

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. How about the work he did on S-3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks?

@bretcantwell4921

2 ай бұрын

They seem so simple now and to me they represent a simpler time. Plus they were awesome for what they were. ❤

@bretcantwell4921

2 ай бұрын

​@@SandyofCthulhuMy first "reading" of Lovecraft was, well, now. I'm currently 3/4 way through Shadow Over Innsmouth audiobook, but I became a lifelong appreciator when I first read about the mythos in Deities and Demigods.

Small Groups -> awesome, complex stuff; Huge Groups -> flat, simple stuff. Thank you Sandy Peterson, for all the awesome stuff you've done.

I knew it. I always suspected that SAN was an abbreviation for The Great SANDY. Now confirmed. An honor to hear from one of the great legends!!!

I got mine at a library book sale for 2 bucks sometime in the late nineties.

The black and white Erol Otus artwork from that book, especially those two chapters, is some of my favorite D&D artwork ever created. Elric had bell bottoms!! It was awesome. Hours upon hours of my childhood spent reading and looking at that book.

@bretcantwell4921

2 ай бұрын

I remember them now. 🤓

And this is why D&D has its own pantheon now.

@aedmhir

3 жыл бұрын

What do you mean by "its own"? Greyhawk, FR, or Dark Sun settings? All of them existed back in those days.

@jfridy

3 жыл бұрын

I always found it funny that they turned down Judges' Guild's offer to sell supplements because they figured most people wanted to make their own settings, and that it wouldn't sell well. So Judges' Guild went out and for several years made setting materials with permission, and did quite well.

@thomaskalbfus2005

3 жыл бұрын

Too gamey real pantheon were designed for Dungeons & Dragons, thus you have character class gods, I prefer the real gods from real religions, not crafted specifically for D&D therefore more authentic.

@James-dc3yt

3 жыл бұрын

@@thomaskalbfus2005 Its all as authentic as you make it and whats is best is subjective.

@thomaskalbfus2005

3 жыл бұрын

@@James-dc3yt the folks that made up the Greek and Norse deities weren't playing D&D, thus those gods weren't crafted to be specifically game gods plus I have some familiarity with the Greek and Roman gods, it's easier if I just use them as is. They are part of mythology just like unicorns and centaurs, now with the made up name gods, I have no idea which is which, I have to think and recall rather than just know that Hermes is the god of thieves and travelers, Aphrodite is the goddess of love, Gaia is the goddess of Earth and nature worshipped by Druids, Ares is the god of war etc.

Deities and Demigods, the tome that taught me never to say Hastur three times in a row.

The great Sandy Peterson. Oh my God.

@davidbrennan660

3 жыл бұрын

Sacrifice a point of Power and all my Magic points minus one... .

@Incrediblefatslug

3 жыл бұрын

1D10/1D100 San Loss

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

Unexpected, and yet not undeserved. How is Seth not up in the millions of subscribers already?

@maximilianobartomucci6044

3 жыл бұрын

If you still haven't, go check Sandy's channel, "Sandy of Cthulhu" he's got some really amazing stuff and gems of hidden rpg and videogame history over there.

Well i never knew about this change, so i just checked my copy and it is the full 17 pantheons with the 'thanks' in the acknowledgements, pleased that its complete. I found it in a UK charity shop in around 199. I'm about to go and re read the 'forbidden' knowledge, so if this is the last i'm heard of....

You should also do one on the first printing of 'The Palace Of The Silver Princess' and the artwork which resulted in most of them being destroyed and a second edition being printed to replace it. Oh, drama.

Still love this book to this day. Growing up in the 80’s I learned so much about mythology from this book!

Today on "Crossovers we do not deserve": Edit: Whew, I knew that Greg Stafford was a great person, but I had no clue that Blumes were SO horrible. Harrowing story to listen.

@aWOLtrooper

3 жыл бұрын

The entire Gygax saga is tragic. I recommend reading "Empire of Imagination", a narrative-style biography about Gary's life.

@marekjurko4548

3 жыл бұрын

@@aWOLtrooper When reading about their contacts with Gygax I sometimes thought that there may be some skewed perspective in his favour (his decision in favour of excluding Arneson from earning on AD&D seems also kind of lowball) but this story is an indicator that they were generally very greedy and unsavoury people to begin with. Thanks for the recommendation, will try to find a copy sometime.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@marekjurko4548 Gygax could be underhanded sometimes, but it doesn't explain away the Blumes.

@marekjurko4548

3 жыл бұрын

@@SandyofCthulhu That's why (from a historical point of view) third-perspective (like yours) is so important - most of the accusations against Blumes can be traced directly to Garry, who (unlike them) actively promoted his point of view. At the same time, Lorraine Williams could drown in ink used by dozens of people to describe her malignant impact on the hobby. Thanks for doing this video - I can't imagine how knowledge about the existence of your awesome personal channel could have evaded me! I am now planning to watch more obscure Italian movies than I ever expected to!

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@marekjurko4548 The Blumes and Lorraine both had the goal to milk TSR of all its money. They had to keep it limping along to accomplish that goal.

Oh wow, this story is news to me. Great to hear Fritz Lieber's name so many times too; a very overlooked fantasy author whose work I've long loved. Now to find my copy of Deities and Demigods... hope it's the first ver... AW CRAP!

@bocconom

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, Fritz Lieber was a true word smith. His short stories are long forgotten but oh so excellent.

I would like to give a special thanks to Sandy Peterson and Greg Stafford for Runequest. Great game that got me started on RPGs 40 years ago.

Seth, thank you for that heads up about Sandy Peterson. What a treasure of information he is! I spent a long time at his site. Way back in the 1980's i sent a hand written letter to Chaosium (yes, we did that back then) and Peterson sent me a reply. It was neat for me as a kid to actually get a letter from some one who wrote published game material.

In that Lankhmar campaign packet I really loved the "geomorphs" idea - the parts of the map that was an open square and then there were like a dozen plus map squares of buildings and you could just drop them in as needed. So when my players were galivanting across the map and found out that the gang they were chasing operated from a certain street I just grabbed a close in map of that couple block area and was ready to go. Used the same concept in many cities I created for my campaigns over the decades. (Using the actual Lankhmar maps squares for much of that time).

The Blumes are the real villains, big surprise.

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

I know, shocking. "Wait, the shark was the villain in Jaws?"

@bigblue344

3 жыл бұрын

I never heard of these guys before. Video potential?

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

@@bigblue344 They're best left forgotten. Sleazy businessmen who helped drive Gygax out of teh company and essentially wrecked it over time through greed and bad marketing. They're not interesting, just aggravating. The wiki page on TSR says all that you really need to know about them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR,_Inc.

@andrewdiaz3529

3 жыл бұрын

Didn't know about them, but wow were they awful people. Straight up set up a dude who was drunk (and maybe an alcoholic?) to take the fall and made it so the only way for Chaosium to get anything would be to sue a personal hero they wanted to give money to I mean hell.

@matthiasthulman4058

3 жыл бұрын

Blume, Blume... hmmm. I wonder where that name comes from?

"I'm not a good narrator" ... maybe you could hire Jack the NPC?

I am old enough to remember when this book came out!

I have a near perfect copy of the original printing. Had a relative that worked at the printing house where it was printed. He also gave me a copy of the first monster manual with a misprinted cover (colors offset), 2 players handbooks and a DM's guide.

I had heard about this book from a young age as my father had it but glad I could hear the real story. Also, had no idea Sandy Peterson did so much. I only knew him for his work with Id.

@Seoulwanderer

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, he wrote the Call of Cthulhu rules 1st thru 6th edition, I think. Also did a monthly column in Dragon magazine, if I’m not mistaken.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@Seoulwanderer My Dragon Magazine column was reviews of computer games, since by that time I was working at id Software. I also contributed some other articles to The Dragon. Post- id Software I was a lead designer for Ensemble Studios so there's that.

@Seoulwanderer

3 жыл бұрын

@@SandyofCthulhu I seriously just geeked out when I realized YOU replied to my comment. Call of Cthulhu remains one of my favorite RPGs and I was already blown away when I realized you'd done the computer game reviews in Dragon. You're a legend!

This is the first time I've ever gotten the notification right when it was uploaded. Usually it waits until hours later. Also, those execs at TSR sound petty as Hell. Seriously, Chaosium didn't ask for much at all, and they still screwed them over.

@donb7519

3 жыл бұрын

this story is at its core just untrue if you want a more research backed up true story look up projared's vid on this

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@donb7519 You realize that I was literally there.

Bought mine in 86 out of the back of Dragon magazine. $40. Had to ask my parents to write a check.

Great video. Thanks you both for taking the time to discuss this! I remember a few friends who had the original versions of this one and held it in reverence.

When I was a DM back in the 90s, I used to collect copies of all the AD&D books for use by my PCs. I assembled (and still have) 7 copies of Deities & Demigods. I used Lovecraft liberally in my campaigns, but I knew nothing about this fiasco with the different editions. The copy I used was a first, but you can imagine the confusion among the PCs when 4 of the 7 copies turned out not to be.

Oh wow, I have the first edition of that sitting in a closet somewhere. i was thirteen at the time and the biggest thing I remember about it was that it was the first book i owned that had a few boob shots, lol. I had no idea there was so much story behind it.

@douglasdea637

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I too have a 1st edition, sitting in a basement somewhere. I should check it out again just for old times sake. My old AD&D books were so important to me back in the 80s...

@plucas1

3 жыл бұрын

@Great White Lol, yep. In 1980 nekkid bewb art was hard to come by for a thirteen year old, so you took whatever you could get. Unlike today where literally a billion boob shots are a simple GIS away. Plus if you're curious you can also GIS the 'naughty' images from 1st edition DDG to see what we thought was a big deal then.

Hey Seth would you consider doing a look through of your collection of rpg books, similar to the old style where you looked through your miniatures.

@BlueThing64

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah this would be sweet

@goodbuddy7607

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'd like to see his D&D stuff in particular.

And this is why physical media is important. If this was on, say Kindle, you'd've received an 'update' and no original copies would remain - excepting those who had either turned off updates, or converted said file type into something else and then renamed it, hidden it, etc. Take care, everyone. The future is here, the past is rewritable.

@andrewdiaz3529

3 жыл бұрын

You are right about a lot of digital media. You heard of Steam's Doomsday key? The plan to use a key to give true ownership of all the games on their library to the people who paid for them in the event Steam goes under? Only two things could happen under that plan: either Steam's death is too quick and sudden like Naughty Dog's and their servers are just shut down and the games disappear forever and everyone who paid to play them no longer have access or the death is slow and they can't use the key otherwise their investors would freak and pull out killing the company immediately so they couldn't even consider that until it would be to late without actively killing the company and leaving people without and paychecks. Either way the people who use Steam would be screwed and the games would just be gone.

@bigblue344

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewdiaz3529 Knowing how good VAC is it will just take a week tops to crack.

@timothymclean

3 жыл бұрын

Classic PDFs work, too.

@riifraff4828

3 жыл бұрын

Wow...terrible. Have you seen or heard about what is going on right now? I... it's getting crazier by the day.

@MidnightDStroyer

3 жыл бұрын

I very much prefer physical media over electronic, but it's for a slightly different reason & that reason was summed up nicely by Stan "The Man" Lee when he expounded on that subject. Stan used a simile to describe the difference that you use "female mammaries" as the example. When you're looking at boobs on your monitor screen, they're right in front of you, it's all nice & pretty, & you might be able to view them from any angle you choose. You can appreciate the pure asthetics of them. But when you have the real thing in front of you, you can get all of those pure asthetics visually, *plus* you can reach right out at touch them, fondle them, stick your nose right in the middle & smell them if you like. Nope, electronic media has nothing quite like having something real & tangible.

I had picked up all of those texts…Early to mid 80’s. Intermittent pick ups from Jelly’s comics and games in Honolulu. Great memories!

The art for those two chapters is gorgeous. I think it's heresy that they removed them.

*Gary Gygax was not only a creative genius when it came to game development..., but his mind was also a virtual library of encyclopedic historical knowledge..., including arms, armors, mythologies, and world religions... Because of this, and my obsession with his 1st ed. AD&D books during my adolescence in the early 80's, I actually learned a lot about actual world history and folklore..., and Deities & Demigods was a big part of that... Besides the modern fictional mythos', as described in this video..., it described in detail many actual historical world religions, some of which I was already somewhat familiar with..., and many others that were completely new to me... I even remember one time when I was watching the movie, Conan the Barbarian, when I had a sudden epiphany..., that Thulsa Doom was a, "Minion of Set", as described in the Egyptian Mythos section..., with the same magical powers in the movie, as was described in the book... I really liked that the original Deities & Demigods, like the other books, especially the DM's Guide, was chock full of actual tidbits of actual world history and folklore..., from trebuchets to Baba Yaga's Hut..., and Marduk to Slepnir... Later editions went more pure original fantasy..., but Gygax was a genius the way he used the collective history and culture of the entire real Earth as building blocks to craft his game worlds..., and in how he empowered other people..., US..., to use these historical building blocks that he had codified into a cohesive whole, to create our own worlds and adventures... I honestly feel that both the Blumes and Williams tried to destroy him because they KNEW that he was a true genius..., and their narcissistic hearts hated him for it... Just imagine what we could have had..., had those bitter and spiteful three hadn't literally conspired against him...*

I was just a kid and had (still have) the second printing of it and knew that it had been pulled from subsequent printings. So I had Michael Moorcock sign it at a convention. I remember him saying as he signed it that he had no problem with it being published in the Dnd book. He said it was something publishers had pushers had fought about. Considering that he was explaining this to a kid I think that little bit would fit with what you are saying here. Anyway, just thought I would share.

I had always remembered "Gods, Demigods & Heroes" as the exact same cover as Dieties, but that G,D& H was the edition with the 3 added mythos. But now I recall my buddy had a bunch of older stuff like "Gods, Demigods & Heroes" & "City State of the Invincible Overlord" & such. We've all lost so many of those old books. All that Judge's Guild paperback stuff. That other Middle Earth game that was horribly complicated & whose name I have sadly forgotten.. Vanishing the way of all-nighters and painting miniatures in the basement.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

Judges Guild had it all - licenses from Traveller, D&D, AD&D, RuneQuest, Tunnels & Trolls. Everything. And they literally threw it away. Idiots.

I actually have the first edition, and had no idea about this whole thing. Cool video

@BigFrakkinOgre

3 жыл бұрын

Same here

@A.Clifton

3 жыл бұрын

It's literally on my shelf and this is news to me

@jerrywhoomst1116

3 жыл бұрын

Same

@schwarzesonne6529

3 жыл бұрын

Yeh I ran an checked my copy an bam there it is page 43

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

To be fair the video is playing up a lot of the controversies. The first edition isn't really that rare, like $75 for one in played condition, it's just a really cool story behind it all that gives the book more mystique.

Haven't even read past the title, and I already know this is going to be my favorite video of the month. Two of my favorite people together, I'm delighted.

Got the early Call of Cthulhu and Moorcock copy before the insanity of the Mythos and the blood and souls to Arioch took their toll of the readers and the they were destroyed.... or maybe not...

This was my favorite of your videos. Great job!

Reading my older brothers Thieves World books was my intro to d&d. Well, that and the Secret of Bone Hill. Those anthologies had some great stories in them, and the Vulgar Unicorn will always be "The" tavern that all other taverns aspire to be.

Looking forward to that vidéo about A mother's Love and congrats on the Ennie.

A great bit of gaming history.

Awesome video Seth! I enjoy getting to hear about some of the history that I never got to experience myself.

Awesome story Seth, thanks for everything you do.

Outstanding video. I love this stuff about the history of tabletop RPGs. A big thank you for Sandy's channel as well.

Great video Seth! And Sandy is always a pleasure to listen to. A font of knowledge stories from the past!

I had no idea Sandy Peterson had a KZread channel, thanks so much for doing this

Just want to say Thank You for introducing Call of Cthulhu to me. My players can't seem to get enough of it. They love to act crazy even before I ask for that insanity check. Got a PDF of New Tales of the Miskatonic Valley during a sale. I'll be looking forward to your video when you cover "A Mother's Love."

I saw an old copy of this in a Comic Book Store that had the Lovecraft Mythos. I wish I bought that dern thing. :(

This was one of those books I got from a friend who was doing some clean up and while I don't have the "illegal" version I really like looking through this book and using it in my setting where lunar gates take the party through different times.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

it wasn;t illegal. I promise.

@patrickmiller4229

3 жыл бұрын

@@SandyofCthulhu I want to say thank you for creating one of my favorite rpg games that let me introduce the Mythos to my friends. You're a big inspiration. I also like your Doom levels.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

@@patrickmiller4229 thanks! I know my Doom levels are controversial among some people.

The later editions focusing solely on Greek, Norse and Egyptian mythos did an incredible disservice to the work that went into the 1st Edition; Finnish, Celtic, Chinese, Arthurian. The subsequent books were stripped of most everything that made the first one so fascinating.

Back in the 80s I had one of the short versions, but a few years ago my sister bought me a huge box of somebody's old D&D stuff she found in a garage sale - 8 or 10 books and maybe a dozen modules, all actually in pretty good condition. And whaddya know - an early printing of Deities & Demigods! Complete with Nehwon, Melnibonean and Cthulhu pantheons. Also a UNOPENED copy of Lankhmar - City of Thieves, which I still have not opened.

Awesome video. Thanks for sharing this intriguing info from such a reputable source. Tabletop history is so fascinating

Love gaming history. Great video Seth and it was pretty awesome of Sandy to come on and talk about the ins and outs of what happened.

Well, humanity can rest easy now that this great mystery has been solved.

Thanks for clearing all this up, it has been confusing me for quite a while.

@davidbrennan660

3 жыл бұрын

Oh course, the truth is still hidden until the crack of doom.

Great stuff! I remember reading my copy back in the day and thinking it was very weird they included Cthulhu mythos. Keep the video's coming!

Love your videos Seth. Keep up the good work.

Thanks. I still sort of own my 1st edition. I say sort of, because I didn't realize it was special until my 12 year old son found it among my "ancient D&D stuff" and started geeking out over it with his friends. He also said it was his and I wasn't allowed to get rid of it.

I totally forgot about the removal of Elric. That was my first introduction to Moorcock's universe, though honestly I didn't read his work until about 2000. Keep up the excellent videos. And OMG a Sandy Petersen clip! Straight from the horse's mouth! Also, TSR seemed to have problematic proof-reading practices, leaving in the thanks to Chaosium but removing Cthulhu or Elric. Do you think that proof-reading has gotten better among bigger gaming publishing houses? And Stormbringer is an awesome game. In one edition of the game, while still using the BRP system, your character could have a skill of over 100 percent. For combat skills, this allowed you to split the score between two or more attacks, IIRC. Not that my character every had a score that high. With that said, have you considered reviewing Stormbringer in whatever its current iteration might be?

This is why I'm glad PDFs of all the original D&D books exist.

Look,I know that you always go above and beyond in your videos but to get Mr.Sandy Peterson to appear in this video(especially concerning it's topic matter),you sir are "FUCKING AWESOME!"Great Job.

*Great video, as always... As no one has yet, you aught to do a video review of the 88' Forgotten Realms module, "Ruins of Adventure", the module that was based on the novel and the classic SSI Gold Box computer game, "Pool of Radiance"... I myself played Pool of Radiance on my Amiga back in the early 90's, then read the novel, and then purchased the module, although I never played through the module... While it might not have been as classic as the oldschool 1st edition AD&D modules, it really fleshed out the playing of the Amiga game and the reading of the novel, and it correlated closely with both of them... And with that familiar cover of Ren o' the Blade slashing his sword at the bronze dragon, Tyranthraxus, it was a classic in its own way... Anyway... Just a thought... Thanks again for all the great videos!*

I totally love your stuff and clean presentation! I watched you all the time for years before making my own channel. Making a video on secret rolls that I am 100% shouting you out in! BIG source of inspiration! I feel like you HAVE to have scripts for everything you say because it’s SO CLEAR, good stuff!

I love your shirt! I recently stumbled across TLWSF and instantly fell in love with them, binged all their albums.

Great content, Seth. Thanks.

You should make a video reviewing your own module and giving GM advice like you normally do for other modules

I missed the peanut gallery! I would have loved to hear Todd's legend of the book.

This is fantastic. You really can't get a more reliable source than this.

Inherited an original copy of this from my Dad, along with a small collection of other AD&D books. It's such a cool bit of history from the hobby, back when they either didn't think anyone was paying attention to them, or didn't care

Whoa! Awesome to learn the real story! I was an early teenager at the time and the only place we knew that had a first printing (unlike our later versions) was the library. We would check it out and then spend coins on the xerox machine to supplement our own versions. We had always cast TSR as the villains (even though we wanted the extra pantheons) for stealing from the authors without their permission because we just assumed they'd done it, gotten caught, and then had to remove it. Even as a teenager I remember thinking, "How could Gary not know that was wrong?" Thanks Seth.

Thanks for this video! I really enjoyed it. This was all going on when I was first introduced to D&D. I remember the rumors well. I also didn't know you had novels out there, I quickly grabbed the fisrt one off audible even as I watched the video. I'm looking forward to listening to it! Thanks again for making you videos I enjoy them a lot.

@SSkorkowsky

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, back in the days before the internet, the rumors got pretty out there because it was all speculation. I first heard it in 92' how the old copies were destroyed due to satanic stuff, because a buddy came back from his first gaming convention and got the scoop from someone there. Which one did you get? I have 5 novels(Valducan series, Ashes of Onyx) and 2 pulpy short story collections (Black Raven series). Hope you enjoy it.

@arcanewarsong

3 жыл бұрын

@@SSkorkowsky The Mountain of Daggers. I think it the first, or at least the first in that set.

I came in to this video thinking I have heard this story 1000 times and now here I am on the other side and I guess I'm gonna go find a good way to send Seth some money because... Wow. I learned a lot and this was well done.

Thanks for posting this video on the history of Deities and Demigods. I had a first edition, but it disappeared back in the early 80s. Though I did get another copy of the book a few years later.

Excellent run down on this classic D&D legend Seth!

Great stuff, Seth!

Greg Stafford seems like a great guy. ❤

„I was born on colonies in fringe worlds of the galaxy!“ Great shirt, man!!!

I have been binge watching D&D and RPG videos for a a while now and sadly only just discovered this channel. KZreads suggestions algorithm is a bit insular. In any case, count me as a new fan! Russell

Thanks for the timeliine of the early versions. Verifies my oldie survivor from first run, places my old third printing nice one, and exposes the near-mint fourth or later I bought a few years ago but wanted anyway.

It was great to see this video. I've known the true story behind the early D&DG printings for donkeys years but I have also heard all the nonsense concocted to cast Jim Ward and others as villains. Good on you (and Sandy Peterson) for setting the record straight. Again.

Awesome stuff as always, Seth. It's funny how life works sometimes, isn't it? You talking about how City of Adventure shaped you and helped lead you as an author reminds me of how D&D did the same for me. Thirty eight years ago, my step mother getting the old red box basic edition of D&D, thinking it'd be a fun family adventure, but unable to figure out the rules. She gave it to me, sparking a fascination with fantasy. Played it in grade school, all the way through and after high school, and still do. I learned so much about pacing, character work, plot points and storytelling from D&D, it's not even slightly surprising I'd become a fantasy author myself. I just always find it fascinating how seemingly small things end up crafting our lives.

Thanks for the heads up about Sandy's channel!

Great insight on an interesting subject!

Love some more RPG history. This was really good. Cheers.

Great story Seth and thanks Sandy :)

Great video! I love hearing about the crazy history of the "wild west" days of game publishing.

My grandma was an enthusiastic participant in the satanic panic and I had to hear her misgivings about my AD&D books more than once (she wasn't a fan of the band Kiss, either). I can say from personal experience that the panic had far more to do with the Asmodeus, Orcus and Belial in the Monster Manual than it did with any material by Lovecraft or Moorcock. They also weren't too keen on druids being a playable class. Until five minutes ago I believed the copyright infringement story, it's funny to find out it was all just a simple misunderstanding.

@SandyofCthulhu

3 жыл бұрын

yes. In fact Call of Cthulhu got almost zero attention from the BADD people. Go figure.

Wow this is fascinating. Thanks for the awesome clarification Seth and Sandy Petersen you guys are awesome!

Great video! Sandy Petersen was icing on the cake!

Really taking your game to another level with that Sandy Petersen costume Seth. Thought that was the real deal there for a moment.

Best RPG channel :). I like dnd more than coc but still Seth, you are awesome and I really enjoy your videos. You are making my quarantine period a lot easier and I'm getting to know a lot of other rpgs, presenting them to friends (we are playing more than ever) and family. Would like to request a reviews on Numeneria (if you are interessed into it). Thanks for the content.

Okay, so I have the second printing...you know, the binding on the original TSR books knocks the Wizard of the Coast books straight out of the park. It was good, solid work until the first Unearthed Arcana, hmph.