i usually solve this by being bad enough that im board wiped by turn 3 within the first 2 hrs

@tacojoe7996

8 күн бұрын

Just started and this looks like a good plan or just assume the other person wins if I am unable to meet a win condition. Predicting the end of a game of chance seems silly.

@Eric-jt8yx

7 күн бұрын

lol 😆

@rouleauxvanzyl2834

7 күн бұрын

I have found the same hack. 60% of the time it works 100%!

Thank you for talking about this! Local tournaments at my community give 4.5h per game for the players, and for horde vs horde armies it sometimes still feels clutch.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

8 күн бұрын

I'm glad your tournaments adapt for it so you can get a real game in!

@zissoulander

8 күн бұрын

I love this idea - but how you handle multi battle events? Are they space out over a few days?

@Cruxxy21

7 күн бұрын

@@zissoulanderI think the big tournaments run 2-3 games per day, over a weekend/three day period.

@zissoulander

7 күн бұрын

@@Cruxxy21 I've been to both RTTs and GTs in the past few months. In my local scene RTTs are three 3 hour games in one day. GTs are three games one day and two games the next day with a quick award ceremony (usually three games saturday and two games sunday). On the three game day the schedule is check in 9:30, 1st game 10am-1pm, lunch 1-2pm, 2nd game 2-5pm, 3rd game 5-8pm. While I do think that games should be longer, adding in another hour per game would make the three game day crazy long.

My friends and I have moved down to 1000pts to try and finish more games.

@Chunkypumpkinhead

8 күн бұрын

2000 points barely even fits on the table with some armies. 1k is the way

@TwinkTwins

8 күн бұрын

1k is awful if you play GK, Custodes, Knights ect

@tylerholmes2727

7 күн бұрын

I have played 2000 point games that barely fit on a 1000 point set up on the table. I find this shortens the game a lot

@azrael1045

7 күн бұрын

I think 1500 is the magic number

@CordovanSplotchVT

7 күн бұрын

​@@TwinkTwinsthat's because those three are cringe factions.

Its a good 6 hours when considering packing, hauling, unpacking, set up, play, food-break, resuming play, argue, fist-fght, arson, destroy the evidence, and finally fleeing the scene. Your experience may vary.

I've never thought about this

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

8 күн бұрын

glad I have opened your mind to information you can never unlearn

Incidentally, "x = 2 hours, 2x = 4 hours" isn't necessarily the answer here. If "setting up the table", "packing up afterwards" and "the whole end game scoring thing" is included in the initial 2 hours and is assumed to be a whole hour (I would not assume this), then you're looking at "1K is 1 + 1 hours, 2K is 2 + 1 hours". Possibly they assume that some amount of the time is taken up with "getting used to the rules/armies" and so the bigger the game, the more time is saved overall. But in actual fact, 2000 points could *multiply* the complexity and the slowdown, adding more option paralysis and more options for interruption.

Me and my friends never calculate the time, we just play until all 5 turns or the winner is clear

in all the editions ive played, i dont think ive done 5 turns in 3 hours.

@passchen-fail3704

8 күн бұрын

You could back in 5th. I’d average one 2v2 4,000 pts a side or two 1v1 2,000 pts games.

Especially with setup! As a GSC player, a lot of people don't know what my army does. I always need to take time to explain how my stuff is different and wonky. Also, the worst is when you have to end at after player 1 on turn whatever, so player 2 doesn't get that turn.

I played in a GT with Kauyon a few weeks ago and only one game did we actually get to play out turn 3 and guess what, I w on that game 😂

Lol, that's funny. My Son and I always take way over 7 hours to complete a 2000 point game, sometimes over 8 if we haven't playes for a while. We just can't seem to get it down to a reasonable time and we've often only had time for 3 or 4 rounds before we have to pack up. Not that the outcome would change that much. The only change would be by how many points he trounces me by, lol. Love the videos and humor by the way. Keep it up. 😀

I played a ton of competetive AoS and particularly teams. The amount of games that would struggle to reach the third turn at top tables towards the back end of an event is staggering. I generally finish my games but it requires a lot of effort to maintain the pace and isn't really relaxing. I agree the times are wrong but the counterpoint becomes who is going to want to do 12 hours of warhammer for a one dayer? Then there's also shops already struggle to make profit and now they would have fl stay open even longer on (in some countries) a higher paid day. It's a tricky one.

i went to a GT last year in 2023. i think i may have completed one game in full. Aside from that, for causal and tts games, it is rare for me to complete a full game in 3 hours. on tts moslty we don't care about it, but i know for a fact we would run out of time for the most part.

I remember dreaming about apocalypse games and fielding a baneblade with my space marines.

Oh my gosh. My very, very first game of Warhammer 40,000 ever, halfway through 9th edition, was a 2-versus-2-versus-2 marathon where I and another person were the "middle two." We had to wait an hour before being allowed to do anything. After we took our turn, one of the members of the third 2 openly yelled, "J* f* C*, let's go," and while I did not like their word choice, I cannot blame them for being angry. It reminds me of the state of some card games where you can draw and play and draw and play without your opponent being able to react to it, such that you are sitting there for five minutes waiting for the other person to take their turn. This is why I wouldn't mind seeing Warhammer experiment more with alternating activations similar to what Kill Team does, and as for those dangly hero/leader units, you could accomplish two things at once by mandating that those leaders be attached to units unless they're huge Monster/King-sized units who would conceivably have an outsized amount of influence on their own (something like Magnus the Red or the Triumph of Saint Katherine), or perhaps if they're snipers/Lone Operatives who would reasonably be running around on their own. That way, it's less "I move 10 things at once to set up 5 stacking buffs" and more "my leader + this unit moves into position" and then your opponent gets to move something of their choice. Certain armies could still do their "I fight with 2 units at once" thing, similar to some Genestealers' group activations in Kill Team, with the trade-off being that those individual units are weaker than comparable units from other factions.

@dannyhalas9408

7 күн бұрын

Dip your toe into bolt action, they're fixed all these problems.

@dracosummoner

7 күн бұрын

@@dannyhalas9408 I have friends who played that. I'm not into WW2 tabletop settings, but thank you for the idea! The game itself looked fun.

@luketfer

4 күн бұрын

Yeah experienced this for the first time ever at Commander night when someone bought a deck whose wincon was 'infinite turns', it took him like 30 minutes of working through, drawing, not having quite enough to go infinite but enough to get an extra turn, taking that extra turn, same thing happening and repeat. Eventually myself and one of the other players stepped outside for a smoke break and told them, "tell us if we're dead when we come back..."

@dracosummoner

4 күн бұрын

​@@luketfer Absolutely. Back home at a weekly board/card-game meetup, one of our regulars was, I would argue, obsessed with one of the original deck-builder games. I think it was Ascension. With the cards I progressively selected over time, I wound up activating a chain reaction of events that essentially allowed me to keep drawing cards as I played them. It took at least five minutes for me to simply play out one of my turns, churning through a good portion of the cards in the deck, and by the end of the game, I had nearly as many points as all three other players (including the guy who, I would say, begged us to play the game) had put together. We never played it again.

Most games I'm typically only getting to the bottom of round three, top of round four within three hours.

with all the points changes i'm suprised people are only now realising that James Workshop cant count

So I play casual with friends, but some weeks when scheduling aligns we will play multiple games in a week. One of said friends has the gift of being Very good at remembering rules, we don't even have to check the book/app half the time as he knows it. We have NEVER used the time limit and games will take at least 4 hours, even two elite armies that we know well will take more than 3

I think this is part of why AOS 4th edition appears to be increasing points values per-unit (at least, that's the impression I've gotten - we don't actually have the official points values just yet) - and I think that's a good thing. Much as I love the spectacle of massive 40k armies... I won't pretend it doesn't have some big drawbacks.

@morgansheepman2403

8 күн бұрын

In general AOS is more points per model to 40k. I hope they continue to lean that direction as the game is cheaper to collect and it is faster and easier to keep track of.

@morgansheepman2403

7 күн бұрын

Update after seeing the points. A 2k AOS game is looking comparable to a 1-1.2k game of 40k

I’m in an escalation league at the moment, and only 3 games have got to turn 5. And one of those we just plotted out rather than play fully. Essentially: draw secondaries, any units in a position to score by moving or killing an enemy unit play out their actions, but the rest (hidden, or out of the way) are just left where they are. Most games are pretty decisively scored by turn 3-4, with no chance of surprise comeback due to score difference.

I did expect it to be about fun at first, but you're right that you can't really measure that on some kind of chart. It's the most important thing, but obviously it can't be *reported* on in any measurable way. The last time I played was in 5Ed, when 1500 was the standard (and also when points were very different on a per-unit basis), and that took a good couple of hours (or more if one player needed to look things up, armies that didn't do well offensively against each other but still needed to resolve a lot of attacks, etc)

When I got started in 7th Ed, the competitive game size was an odd 1750, while casual games were 1500. Detachments were more unusual and varied, but they were also way more fun.

my last 2k point game was against deathguard ( i play csm black legion) The game was 4 hrs 20 min

I actually did my first tournament last month, played sisters and went 1-2. I got past turn two in the first two games, and managed to squeak by turn three in my last one. At 2K points it seems highly unlikely that you will be able to finish a game in a tournament with the aloted of time. Thanks again for the video vampire homie!🎉

This is absolutely an issue. At our venue, probably 90% do not finish a game. It is not fun. Every once in awhile, selling models should take a back seat. Everything is being done by GW for short term success.

I've personally moved away from 2k games, there is a shop near me that do 2.5 hour rounds with 1k armies, love it.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

7 күн бұрын

awesome!

I've never considered this. Good video.

I like 1.5k the best and it’s what u build my armies to. At 1k faction balance gets really wonky ex Custodes vs Tyranids. I played a 1k game with another new player and Custodes can barely get 3 units at 1k and my vanguard invader force just swamped them with engagement in their deployment zone the whole game. And that’s on top of an army like Tyranids being even weaker than normal at 1k. Skew list would become super prevalent, my local play group makes rules for our 1k games to prevent super heavy spam. GW rules would not support this and 3x baneblade guard or dedicated horde armies would be unkillable. Needs to be 1.5 to allow for some diversity in lists. I agree with this sentiment overall

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

7 күн бұрын

I love 1500pts!

I agree that 3 hours isn’t realistic for casual players, but I’ve been to several tournaments now, and have finished all my games under 3 hours so far. I don’t generally see the time limit as a constraint. I would also argue that double the points doesn’t necessarily mean double the time, I don’t think that’s a linear relationship

@iisaka_station

8 күн бұрын

Having an informed judge present really cuts down time spent on rules disputes. Sometimes at my LGS, the store owner will side with the interpretation of the person who is not up to date with what the pros on KZread are saying and doing, and I’m literally one of two people who play at my store and try to keep up with the flood of content online, so it’s just baffling sometimes

@veryblocky

8 күн бұрын

@@iisaka_station going to be honest, Judge calls are rather rare. That alone probably makes a big difference if you’re frequently having to ask each other questions about how the game works

My first game took 3+ hrs and it was a combat patrol and we both were clueless regarding rules.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

7 күн бұрын

I think I was the same at the start of 10th edition - there were a lot of rules to learn/unlearn

I think I understand the GW time allocation. What they are probably thinking (and hoping) is that 2000 points will not just be double the number of units as a 1000 point battle, but rather have a higher percentage of large "centerpiece" models and aura heroes, rather than more troops.

I play orks, a fast game is 3.5 - 4 hours.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

8 күн бұрын

that sounds about right unless your army is all meganobz and vehicles

@sadlyanuxtakustan8950

7 күн бұрын

@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber I am a green tide enjoyer. There is no such thing as a fast game.

I haven't played 40k in a long time, but I do play other games and have done tournaments in them. In DCU it's more advantageous for points scoring to have more models, and big expensive characters can only be in one place at once. But it does mean that we didn't always finish 6 turns. Tournament organisers reduced the points limit by 25%, and it got better.

Holy fuck with all the constant rules changes we play at 1000p and it usually takes all day. I think the last time I finished a 2kp game was 6th ed.

I play a tournament at least once a month. Whilst I always finish my game, often with an hour to spare, there always seems like there's 1 table that dosen't. Locally, not finishing a game is the exception. Usually because of some player inexperience or because the game is so close, players are ponderng the board state etc.

I play sisters and my buddy had DG and world eaters. Even our "fast" matchups (sisters v WE) usually end up taking a comfy 5-6 hours, with set up, deployment, food, full agressive killy game, take down packing... and thats us trying to expidite shit like rules, rolling etc. We've had some 2500pt games go for 9 hours XD

I'm newer to tournament playing. I played in a 1k point tournament where we played 4 games in the one day. 1.5 hours per game it was. Most of my games I felt rushed to get the last two rounds done. I'm going to a double tournament on the weekend. My teammate and I are going to shove a bunch of people in vehicles to have quick early turns.

That's actually such a big issue that's just ignored. My latest games, as I said in the poll, finished early, and I won, but I would prefer a full game that I lose over one where it's done halfway and it's worked out, oh you'd probably win. It's not fun, when turn 5 can be so important.

i don't play competetiv or even come near a tournament. but i had a 1,5k game 2 rounds and 2 hours. in my old club we never got to turn 5 in a day of gaming. i'm glad we arte not the only one and its just sad to never really finish

As a counterargument, despite points being twice as high in 2000pts, you do not have twice the amount of army rules, command points, stratagems, etc. I do agree 3 hours is pretty optimistic for the average game with average players though

@Raygun9000

8 күн бұрын

Indeed, does total play time include terrain set up etc? 4hrs for 2k sounds about right. 3hrs for 1k.

@tommyakesson8858

7 күн бұрын

To counter your counter point. The amount of decisionpoints increase almost exponentialy. The amount of targets, and potential threats, go way up. And while the amount of stratagems might the same the good places for your CP has probably more than doubled.

One of my armies is chaos knights. I have 8 models ( 2 big boys and 6 wardogs) my turns last 20 minutes at most. Then i have to sit through an hour+ as my opponent moves 100+ models, shoots ~with 100 dice. I'm usually sitting down because after a point, i genuinely lose interest in winning or losing and my back and feet starts hurting. At least when it's my turn i have something to do to distract me from my physical discomfort before it takes another hour before i get to do something again.

My local scene does 3 hr games and while I do appreciate how it speeds us up it heavily favors top heavy armies and not armies that center around points, strategy, or surviving. After numerous events the (anecdotal) average Ive seen is that games finish 3 turns and then either dice down or talk out the last two turns. My competitive play group say '40k is 3 turn game masquerading as a 5 turn game' which isnt how it should be. The real issue here is literal time - if a 5 game event moved to 4 hour games then the day with 3 games would be three hours longer. Show up at 7am, 1st game 8am-12pm, Lunch 1pm-2pm, 2nd game 2-4pm and 3rd game 4:30pm-8:30pm. Then end at 9:00pm-ish. That's a LONG day. EDIT: I realize now that the armies I find easier to pilot with time constraints are armies that dont have a lot of models to move or shoot. I play necrons, sisters, and am just getting into GSC. I want to play xenocreed horde GSC but the learning curve will be about how quick I mechanically play. One of my Ork friends says that he often skips shooting phase, especially if its pistols and jank stuff so that he can move to phases that matter. I don't like that tactical decisions are being mitigated by time and not strategy and how this penalizes larger model count armies.

A 2k game is about 4 to 5, about 3 if you know the results by round 3 or 4. TBF me and my friend spend a lot of time figuring out the rules, and how a rule is meant to be interpreted. I think if GW's rules were completely crystal clear the game time for us would go down significantly ( doesn't help that all the rules and rule clarifications are all over the place, even on the app. If I search for embark I will get a lot of FAQs and not the rule itself unless I look under transport.) Just to be clear, we are not trying to be sweaty, and we play quite friendly with each other, but we are also trying to play the game as intended in case if we ever play outside the two of us, we know how to play the game and not our version of the game. So yea, rules and clarity is what makes most of our games take so long.

@In_Purple_Clad

7 күн бұрын

Hear hear, that's exactly the problem I have with actually playing the game of 40k right now. It doesn't help that GW seems to be constantly changing the rules/ constantly smaking duct-tape over the cracks and loop-holes they baked into 10th Edition. The playerbase probably could do 2k games in 3 hours if we weren't having to constantly relearn and unlearn how the game works/ look up rules in 20 page 'clarification' documents

This is one of the reasons i love the big knights

Me and a bunch of my mates JUST got into 40k, and are still bulding our armies. So while we're playing a ton of games (2 weekly) they're ALL on TTS. While this isnt the best way to play 40k, being able to "save" a game and come back is huge. My last game was Iron Hands vs Tau and it took 5 hours. However part of that was due to me never playing that army before. When i play Sisters or Orks, my main armies, and my opponent is pkaying their main, we can knock them out in 3-4 hours depending on what's going on on the table. But its nice to be able to save and come back to the game later.

My workaround is to play smaller games. Since everything between 1k and 2k points is all on the same size board, you can choose any number. Want to play 1200 points? Works great with the mission decks. For tournaments on a chess clock, I have to selectively choose what to do: time is one of the limited resources I have. As an Ork player, I'll play an entire game without doing any shooting - only melee combat. And it actually feels fun to be able to get a game done in under 3 hours and go back to life (or the next game in the tournament). I love using a clock because I never have to feel bad if I take a minute or two to think: I'm spending my own time and not negatively impacting my opponent.

The only 2K games I've ever finished in under 3 hours. Were ones where we only played till like, turn 3 because the outcome was so painfully obvious there was no point in dragging out the agony. My usual 5 turn, 2K game clocks in at around 3.5-4 hours on a very good day.

I think their thinking is that double the points worth of enemies doesn't take double the time to kill if you have double the guns pointing at them. They're just forgetting that double the amount of models will always take double the amount of time to move, because you can't grow more hands and a faster thinking brain.

This is such an issue. So tired of feeling entirely rushed just to get through anything in under 4 hours.

2:14 THANK you for this Video! Moving to A Song of Fire and Ice...while using the Deathwatch! Alot of 1,5k Game took me and a Friend on Several Games 5 - 6 Hours.

I play guard/votann/Eldar. Time is rarely an issue when you are familiar with your rules and your opponents rules. The game really slows down when having to verify or look up a ruling. Plus in larger tournaments if something is in question call for a judge. They will settle it and give more time.

If you want to still sell 2k points worth of models, but run games at 1500 points for time, a system where in you split your army into various detachments (sort of like the new Age of Sigmar regiments) and then mix and match them up to 1500 points after learning the mission/opponent's faction and 2k roster would be an interesting way to have what is sort of like a sideboard in other games. Newer players would only need 1500 points to play a "max point game," but would still be incentivized to pick up another 500 points for options at the higher competitive levels. It would also give a home to more niche units, that would normally not be taken blindly, but would fit really well in a detachment you slot in when it's their time to shine. Narratively it fits as well, as it isn't like your 2k points of an army is flying around self contained with no other resources blindly slamming into wars. Generals generally know they're going to a sector to fight tyranids for example, and would bring appropriate equipment.

I rarely finish my 2000 point games. Easily 4-5 hours is needed

"Ya'll are finishing turns?" T: Greentide player.

40K desperately needs points increases across the board. It would solve so many problems, from the extreme length of games to the massive financial barrier to entry for new collectors. Even Age of Sigmar, which typically has higher points costs for equivalent-ish units, does this. So we know it would work. But that would also mean less money for GW. So obviously that's never going to happen. (It's honestly funny looking at AoS. Not only are their points values higher, their equivalent to Combat Patrol boxes, first Vanguard and now Spearhead, tend to cost less on average too. It's like GW knows full well that AoS players are much less tolerant of GW's price-gouging. Whereas 40K players, who on average have been playing for decades at this point, are well accustomed to paying whatever GW asks without meaningful changes to their buying habits.)

4:26 You are not crazy 😅 I definitely say as a counter to "well my x unit would have destroyed y unit" let's roll and find out. Like give us the whole time to play a complete game, the time constraints be damned.

Yeah this is disheartening. A big issue for me with getting people into Warhammer has been the fact that people don't really want to sit around and wait for what could be half and hour or more before they get to do anything meaningful. Warcry, Killteam and One Page Rules are a much easier sell because they avoid this issue with smaller games where you take turns, but I really want to play Old World, which is a bit faster simply because movement trays are considered the default and there's a lot less shooting, but not fast enough for the people I play wargames with to tolerate. Getting people who don't to try is essentially impossible. Bumping the default size down to 1000, rebalancing single units so that they're weaker, do less and can thus be cheaper and ditching I go you go is IMO necessary if Warhammer wants a future. Also, they really need to ditch physical rules. I love actual books but not when what's written isn't actually true. If you need to look through the core rules, your codex/index, errata and an FAQ just to make sure you're doing everything right, something is fundamentally broken with your game. Complex rules aren't an issue, but obtuse and hard to look up rules are.

@danielhughes3758

8 күн бұрын

2000 points give so many more options for list building though. There are units that just aren't viable at 1000 points and many units you want to bring multiple of you can often just bring 1. Some options are locked out completely at 1000 points such as putting a unit at 255-500 points in strategic reserves. I think 2000 points is a lot better balanced, but time management is a major issue for sure

>the ork shooting turn The three hour turn

I normally completed a full 1500pt game back when I played 7th and before (I havent played 40k since then), but we frequently completed 2k of Horus Heresy. The one game I did play loosely competitively was Star Wars Armada, which was at 400pts and that was 135 minutes, but you had generally a max of like... 8 units? The thing for that was if you hit time you completed the round you were on before the game ended. I am building up a 1500pt Space Marine list to play 10th with now though.

So I have a little bit of a different perspective. I live in St.Louis which contains, or has nearby, 3 fairly prolific teams where multiple players on those teams sit fairly high (with a couple typically cracking into the top 100 players in the world at different points) on the BCP leaderboard in every modern edition(8e forward). In tournaments here rounds are not 3 hours they are 2 hours and 45 minutes however boards are already setup other than objective markers. This has created in the tournament scene for both RTTs and GTs an extremely competitive atmosphere as a high volume of players attending these tournaments play 6+ games including tourney games a month with the intent of practicing or winning monthly RTTs and the quarterly GTs. Now I fully understand this is an outlier in comparison to most other areas that have a large 40k population. However, this outlier that has existed since post 2020/2021 has created a community of players where nearly every game in a 60 person tournament is finished in 2.5 hours or less. Thus, I'm not so sure that the problem of not finishing a game is a failure of the game when it comes to a tournament setting especially a GT, but rather one where an overall community is not able to play enough in general to effectively memorize their rules and gameplan. That creates the syumptom where those players and communities are unable to finish games at the rate required that tournaments typically require for people to go home at a reasonable time. Now when it comes to more casual communities where the tournament is all the 40k games someone might get for 2 or 3 months I fully understand why those games are unable to be finished in time as those players will absolutely have to pull up rules more often, take more time to roll dice, dither on the correct option longer etc etc. So as an overall statement the 3 hour length especially in tournaments is not intended for the occasional warhammer player who switches army a lot, or doesn't play very often. It is designed for the warhammer player who has tested the majority of a list and army for potentially several games before even attending the tournament. I'm hoping the above doesn't come off elitist/snobbish as that is not my goal. Rather, I find it important to recognize that the times printed in the rulesbook are absolutely NOT correct for casual players (which does include many tournament players who just don't play enough beforehand as well) but are correct extremely constant and consistent tournament players where their entire community plays enough that the games are finished in a reasonable time.

Tournaments here are always with chess-clock. People do all kinds of stuff to save time. Regiment-bases, just asking some specific abilities and stratagems or skipping shooting units and such. I finish my games most of the time but it’s not as relaxed and laid back as it was in earlier editions. I asked TOs and they said, the answer to that question is mostly „I wAnT tO pLaY mY bAneBlAde“ or sth

Yeah, this is what keeps me going to tournaments tbh granted, i am slower because i dont play consistently in general but i have never finished a game in 3 hours unless someones getting tabled

My friends have been getting down to about 3-3.5hrs to finish a game. Thing is you just need to have your army rules down. Know how many shots this unit shoots , have your dice rdy. Just makes the game quicker. Memorization and experience playing your specific army/detachment will make your games faster.Also we just did switch to pariah and unless you’re doing 1-2 game of practice a week you will a bit slower going through games when it comes time to playing the primary/secondary mission. Memorize your shit and you’ll be fine

I'm very much a casual player, but I typically play sessions of multiple games back to back, because at my local shop we pay for the day. Usually in 8 hours I get 2 games in, usually 1k x 2 or maybe 1k + 2k. At my local group we have 4 hour sessions and most struggle to finish 1.5k games without one side getting stomped. It's very unsatisfying. I think we'd all welcome 1.5k as standard again. I'd love smaller games with more variety within units (certified firstborn enjoyer here), and I'd like less of a disparity in army sizes to prevent snowballing. A lot of this problem is because of rules about scoring, so something simpler would also be appreciated

finishing one of those games in about 2 1/2 hours or less is normal for my group. Thats why in tournaments it weirded me out that people took the entire time to finish or come close to finishing games.

I remember back in the day that 1750pts was the favoured game to play. Maybe we should go back to this

@jameskurth3560

6 күн бұрын

I agree with this. I'm not really sure why they changed it.

I recently attended my first tournamebt which was five rounds and every game finished on time. We were using chess clocks but time was rarly a problem.

Yeah, I could barely, BARELY finish my games before the GSC codex, and now with the new points and neophyte rules forcing 6, SIX profiles per unit, I can't reach fourth.

So funny hearing this issue in such an easy casual game. Infinity tournaments are 2 hours and most people are done in an hour and a half. In a game notorious for having "convoluted rules". Sure seems strange that one game flows so easily for players and the "easy to learn" game takes people 4 hours to play just because of all the terrible micromanaging and just having so many models. I would be curious if this issue happens in Old world games as well. Are movement trays keeping turn times down?

@MrSmitejr

7 күн бұрын

Infinity has less models. Its really as simple as that. Old World units move in a single block unless they're Skirmishers so they're much simpler overall, Old World games tend to go extremely fast between that and the monsterherohammer that it focuses on keeping army size relatively small.

I’ve played at LVO every year since 2021. Over this last year, I’ve played at 3 GTS and multiple RTTs. Generally I finish games. That said, in tournament play, I make it a point to put us on the clock.

I'm a chatterbox when playing and usually a combination of overthinking/analyzing and just chatting with my buddy. We rarely finish games, and I know I'm the main cause for that. I've used timers to try and speed myself up but even then 4+ hours to get into turn 3 maybe 4 still feels rough. We typically play sisters vs orks and I take the longest between us as sisters. I like to think we still have fun but I know I'm a bit frustrating.

It is not enough, for 3 hours players need to roll the dice in crazy speed, and no one have time to verify if the values are correct or not.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

8 күн бұрын

and this is why cheating happens so often at tournaments - no one has the time to rules check or double check Good point - I wish I had mentioned that in the video!

@veryblocky

8 күн бұрын

I would disagree. I appreciate 3 hours isn’t realistic for casual players, but I feel like I can quite comfortably finish a game in under 3 hours without rushing

@vxicepickxv

8 күн бұрын

​@veryblocky I know Mordian Glory mentioned his horde army wouldn't finish games in 3 hours, but the clocks he used were skewed, so his time was much less than his opponent's time. He played fast, but his opponent was double checking everything to maximize his smaller unit shooting.

This definitely seems to be an issue. In our local group, which consists of a LOT of new players, there are really only two of us who know our rules well enough to get a game done quickly. I'd love to know how many tournament games make it through 5 turns...

OKay also you've provided me a somewhat appropriate space to air a grievance. One of my armies is Tau. I had about 2k points but then after the updates I have around 1500p. I usually play 1k points. Anyway - DRONES, MAN. In this edition, playing a battlesuit heavy list, using drones TRIPLES my model count, cramming the board with useless tokens that 'count as +1w' or 'count as a very bad gun attached to each crisis suit.' I am trying to play a 1k game but moving all the stupid-ass useless, often quite large drones around the board takes FOREVER.For like +1w and a garbage gun that fires on BS5+. That could easily be included in the model profile. Simply assume that each suit has a shield drone and put +1w on their profile and don't make me cart around these big model counters on flying bases everywhere. I want to play fast and it's stupid.

@In_Purple_Clad

7 күн бұрын

I feel your pain as a fellow Tau player. Glad you could vent. I agree wholeheartedly. I have seen two 'semi solutions' to the drone problem in my time... none of them officially endorsed by GW but hey-ho. They often don't have a clue what they're doing 😋 You might've encountered these solutions before but if you haven't: Option 1: find a way to physically attach the drones to your suits/ their bases. Use a sturdy wire. Pin and superglue one end of it onto the underside of the drone, and the other end onto the suit's back/ on its base. I've seen people do that anyway just because it looks cool. Having the drones look like they're physically flying past the suit can make the model look really dynamic - like a diorama or piece of cover art. Option 2: Don't use the drone models at all. Tell your opponent that GW don't understand game design/ doesn't understand the importance of the user experience while playing the game. Watch as 99% of the playerbase agrees with you, and lets you just use the suits sans the drones and trusts you to know what you're doing. Do have the drones written down on your list/ do select them on the app. That way your opponent can't accuse you of funny business/ cheating by saying your secretly swapping out the drones mid match Totally understand if you don't wanna do either of these things. It is annoying that players have to figure out how to solve GW's problems but eih, it's the same thing with all cororations. Hope I've helped either way. Always good to share the wisdom of the Tau'va/ 20+ years of Tau forum posts

@Chunkypumpkinhead

7 күн бұрын

@@In_Purple_Clad I thought about using some magnets to attach the drones like you were saying! I actually was thinking about 3d printing drones at 80% reduced size so the suits just just have little buzzing bees around them. I honestly think I'm just going to go droneless unless someone has a real problem with it. Thanks for the reply!

@In_Purple_Clad

7 күн бұрын

@@Chunkypumpkinhead happy to help 😊

Indecision slows down games more than anything else, I commit to a plan before the game and during the battle if something changes I commit to that change quickly. For better or worse. It depends what your goal is; my smart goal for the last 2 years has been playing better games faster, my personal win rate is low, but winning wasn't necessarily my objective in every (casual) game.

3 hours is nowhere near enough for 2000pts. 4 hours is enough generally, theres just too many dice rolls.

You can save time with apps which roll dice for you. Very useful with 10x arco-flagellants.

@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber

7 күн бұрын

Good idea but I need the click clack noise

I stopped playing my T'au pre-codex because of this exact issue. Kauyon was useless if games ended on turn 3 or 4 due to time.

Goonhammer tracks this, there is an option in the end of the game when entering results. (game completed, game ended early or one side conceded) With that out of the way, we usually finish games in2,5 to 3 hours. That includes talking through the army and deploying. In my last 20 games there wasnt a singel opponent who ran out of time, no matter the army. The easiest way to get faster is to remember your rules and keep asking your opponent about his rules while playing. The most time consuming activity is having to look up rules or stats. It is also fine if you do not know the T of your venom when some bolters shoot at it. You probably know it isnt 4 and it certainly isnt 8, so a 5+ should wound. And while your opponent is rolling, you can look it up. Always be active eben during your opponents turn. Most of the time you dont have a lot to do anyways so you can look up rules, stats and (this is also a time saver) organize your dice in packets of 10.

Kauyon has been very painful this edition

At 2k points, I’ve only made it to turn 3 once. Usually by turn 2, I’m bored, tired, and don’t care anymore.

When i was playing consistently, I'd finish a 2000 pt game in 2-2.5 hours; playing casually. There are just too many variables (i.e. rules/special rules/strategems) that unnecessarily lengthen games.

i talk about this with orks all the time! if we only play to turn 3 or 4 their waagh is lasting a substaintially longer portion of the game!

From a tournament point of view for the average army, i guess its little time, that being said since i only play Knights on tournaments (or Guard, with x2 super heavies) i never run out of time, BUT, i have had opponents run out of time. Funny enough, i like higher points limits on armies since it allows me to play more/bigger models and get quite bored at lower limits lately. My friends and i have stopped playing 2k points games as frequently (only tournaments, but casually among us is rare) and are going mostly for Onslaught games, or narrative games with 5k+ points. That being said, we really enjoy playing big expensive models (i play Knights, and guard with at the very least 2 super heavies and like x6 russes), my friends love taking Stompa + Mork/Gorkanauts, or x2 Tesseract Vaults + Silent King, and so on. So even an Onslaught game doesnt take that long and we can get a couple of those in a get together.

I was in a tournament yesterday (with my tyranids). 3 Games, we had 3:30 hours for each one. The first was a mirror, we took almost all the time. For the other two 3 hours where enough for 5 turns. I had 20 units in my list including a mix of monsters and gaunts…

In the past 2 years i finished all my games. And at my club we made a tornament were players have to finish the game. I would say almost 1/3 of games turned around at turn 4. Meta is cooked.

I’m more interested in models and physically building theoretical lists but this sounds crazy. One if the time limit is up and I’m left with a grot but I’m also ahead I couldn’t except a loss, also the American in me would try to take advantage of this. Probably why I’m not playing on a table🤔

I have only had t9o do that twice at a tournament. I have never had to do it in a casual game. I have seen it happen a lot I think 4 hours would be a better time frame.

I have played a few 2k point games at or near to 3 hours. I've also played some that ended 4.5 hours in and were played quickly for what was happening. I'd rather tournaments handled at 1,500pts and the rules were just modified to match.

Me and the group i play actively with have manged to swueeze down 2k ots games T1-T5 into 4 hours. We are casuals and forget rules, but the time given by tournament packs do none the less bother us. We're meant to find and save 1 hour of playtime, and that's just not possible for us. So we don't bother.

Been playing Crusade since the start of the edition. It frequently takes 4+ hours to run a full game at 2k. I've seen games run to 6 hours easily.

Our games that arent 2000. They are only 1200-1500points and we still need 4 to 6 hours. We tried to get it to 3h and we were only succesful once to get it down. Now we are back to 4-6h. We still play all rounds till finish. Sometimes it ends in the third or fourth round and sometimes it takes till the last round.

My friend and I played a 750-point game, and we didn't finish it. The game lasted for more than 3 hours.

I usually only see around a 50-60% increase in my number of units in 2k point games from 1k. So 2 hours moving to 3 makes sense. I've sped up my games dramatically by skipping the wasted motions. Those Neophytes don't get to shoot because we both know they're doing almost nothing to affect the game without a character and strats. So instead they moved, do an action if needed and then they stay. Same with Orks. I'm not wasting time shooting the Sluggas of some 60+ Boys only to amount to a single dead space marine. No, they're going where they need to and doing an action or getting ready to charge if that's what I need. I skip those "I may as well overwatch you, let's see what happens" moments. I also spend the majority of my opponents turn deciding where I want my units to go and what they need to shoot/charge. Then I only need to make quick adjustments as units die or I draw a secondary that changes things. I don't play in big tournaments and I don't have the highest win rate in my local group, but I can play quickly and get through all of my turns. Most games are decided by end of turn 3 anyway unless it's a slap and tickle fight where there's a ton of bodies still on the board. I've only had to talk out 1 close game where neither of us felt great with the decision. It generally is pretty agreed upon who has won. That's just my anecdotal experience.

to be fair, when it comes to game design and measuring time, it's not as easy as basic algebra, multiple factors could come up with increased or decreased point use, there could be a base time that a game generally inevitably takes almost regardless of point count, and a cap on the effects of point count in time. Sorry if this is brought up later in the video, I paused to write this.

@maggyspace7319

8 күн бұрын

(Not that the measurements from GW are right - not that I'd particularly know from experience, I'm a killteam player and don't play mainstay 40k, just that, as someone particularly invested in game design, the basic maths approach usually doesn't work out.)

All unfinished games should be graded as a stalemate with the battle being currently inconclusive.

So, I mostly agree with what's being said here, but I do have to disagree on adding back special weapons if points did drop. I find that units that have a lot of special weapons tend to be a massive time sink when it comes to playing turns due to memorization, and actually rolling the dice and calculating damage. When you've got a unit with one stat line, that's super easy to memorize. For example, I have 10 Bloodletters, they hit on 3s, are strength 5, AP -2, and 2 damage each. And they reroll 1s to wound. That's gonna be 20 attacks coming from the full squad. Contrast that to something like the Rogal Dorn, that has 6 to 8 different weapons with different profiles and keywords. If the entire roll sequence takes 30 seconds per weapon, then that's 3-4 minutes shaved off right there. Now we still have to calculate all the damage from all the different weapons with different profiles. Then we have to consider how long it takes for the opponent to decide what every one of those weapons wants to target, and remembering what's already shot. Finally, we have to consider the extra time added from checking the datasheet, because let's be honest, they don't have all 6-8 weapon profiles memorized. And even if they have great memory and do, chances are the opponent doesn't and they're probably going to want to see what the hell is shooting at them with so many attacks. So in reality, that Rogal Dorn is probably eating up close to 10 minutes of time on it's own. Now multiply that by up to 3 because your opponent is taking 3 of them. As much as I initially disliked losing the minutia of wargear and individual model points early in the edition, I do think the consolidation helps make the game run more smoothly. GW probably did go overboard on it, and it would be fine to have a bit more of that minutia, but overall it probably was a good idea. 1 weapon profile to keep track of is easy. 2 weapon profiles is ok. 3 weapon profiles is starting to push it. 4+ and you're starting to take exponentially longer on one unit's turn.

Last game with the sister I won by the last shot of the last turn. But we stick to indexes and lethathon missions. Because fuck yearly season passes.

I'm not sure on this one, of course your own games may vary but I've found 3 hours to be the sweet spot for 2k games at events. With movement trays I was able to play my 140-180 model sister lists fairly comfortably (pre codex)

Ive never not finished a game at a GT within the 2.5 hours. TBH most of the time we have 20-30 mins to spare and that's a full 5 rounds. If you have two people who have reps on their list playing with a general plan in their mind than games go very fast.