My first attempt at a lecture I can bring to schools, colleges, universities and youth clubs. I plan to iterate and improve this presentation before presenting it in person. Feedback is welcome.

@jayeshpatel9854

10 күн бұрын

This was great. Very clear. Very simple. I especially liked the phrase "negotiating wrongdoing". Regarding species extinction, I've had similar thoughts. It seems like humans only value things that are scarce, and discount things that are plentiful. I'll watch this again and see if I have any constructive suggestions. Thank you!

@with-eyes-unclouded

7 күн бұрын

@@jayeshpatel9854 Thanks for the feedback!

@jayeshpatel9854

6 күн бұрын

Here are some constructive thoughts. At 7:50, instead of the marriage counselor reference maybe it would be better to ask the audience to think of other times in history when people focused on the differences, what happened because of it, and how we view that history. A marriage counselor tries to help people who have already made a commitment to each other, but most people have not made any commitment to animals. Just a suggestion, of course. You are so much better at engaging people than I am.

@jayeshpatel9854

6 күн бұрын

At 9:05, the 'which of these animals would you kill?' is brilliant imo. I think that anybody seeing that wouldn't be able to keep themselves from mentally doing that exercise, even if they are resistant to the message.

@jayeshpatel9854

6 күн бұрын

Just finished my second watching. I think I only have two more suggestions. There were times when your pace slowed down and I think you already recognized that. I also noticed a couple of spelling mistakes, which might be important if you are presenting at schools. 😉 I want to emphasize again that it's great that you are doing this. 🌱

omg this is soo sooo good. loved all the sections but especially the “why not other global issues” & “every vegan counts for 2” justin’s quote is awesome-i think we’ll be seeing that in history books it’s clear you put a lot of effort into this presentation. i’ll be rewatching a few times and can’t wait for the polished version. thank you.

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

Yeyy! Thank you! I will keep those sections in then! I'm trying to shave it down to below one hour. Maybe even a 45 minute version to leave 15 minutes at the end of a presentation for QandA

@greyskyvegan

8 күн бұрын

@@with-eyes-unclouded honestly i’d hate to see any of it cut out but i guess if compromise is necessary 😕

@greyskyvegan

8 күн бұрын

@@with-eyes-unclouded i think it’s great you are doing this. we desperately need more activists lecturing in schools for sure ✊✊✊🌱🌱🌱🩶🩶🩶

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

@@greyskyvegan I knowww it's really hard to cut things. I was thinking of making versions of it that could appeal to different crowds. For example one version that i could bring to an philosophy and ethics class + one that i could bring to a history class...

@greyskyvegan

8 күн бұрын

@@with-eyes-unclouded omg that’s a great idea! “know your audience “ lol 😂

This is great, mate. I'm halfway through and loving it, your coherenece and the way you unfold the lecture unfolds is brilliant.

Fantastic lecture. The recurring motif of moral consistency is great as it's allegedly easier to convince people in what they already have a conviction for. I understand why you avoided showing graphic images and footage, however as most people are intentionally kept away from witnessing industry practices, showing them may help audience grasp how dire and horrible the standardized reality truly is, which in turn would make the philosophical standpoint you outline much more relatable and agreeable. Unfortunately I think that depicting these gruesome acts doesn't quite bear the same desired impact. Enormous respect to you.

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

Hey thanks for the feedback! You identified exactly the thing I have been grappling with. I worry that if I show graphic footage in a school setting i might not be invited back ever again to speak. They could even blacklist me in the community. On the other hand, the visuals are always going to be 10x more potent than anything I could put into words, and it's the video footage that sticks in people's minds. I was convinced to go vegan by a lecture that did not have any visual element, so I know it's at least possible.. Maybe I could find a middleground where I only show still images, maybe diagrams...

@jayeshpatel9854

6 күн бұрын

Recently I was looking for a video to share with my vegetarian mother about the dairy industry. I found a video called 'the life of a dairy cow' which explained everything through drawings. Maybe something like that would work without getting you banned from schools.

Just got to the end, well done for getting through it all and putting it together. The only thing I'd say is to put even more time in each of the slides ;) but ik it probably already took you ages

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

Thanks for the feedback Rupert! Yes i think there are too many slides that only have text, and that can be very dry for people. I will put more time into creating visual aids for all slides.

This is brilliant 💗💗

Awesome

Fantastic lecture. I'm incredibly glad that I came across it. It's changed my conceptions, and you've genuinely convinced me. I don't know if I ever would have put all these pieces together if not for this video. More people need to be made aware of this, and I respect this first step you've taken in eliminating the biases and preconceptions. It's well written and enlightening. Keep up the good work.

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

Hey! Thanks for leaving a comment to let me know. I think your experience alone has made this endeavor worthwhile.

If you ever pen an animal rights book i would buy and read it. I enjoyed this thank you, lots of points to take away into my own discussions.

@with-eyes-unclouded

7 күн бұрын

Thanks dude! That would be cool.. to be like Earthling Ed.. I think I would have enough to say ont he topic to write a book. Although I think the process starts with building a following here on youtube and then maybe i get the traction to make the endeavor worthwhile. I appreciate the vote of confidence!

You are a great at lecturing all aspect of this important issue. Animals need people like you. Hope you can make yourself more visible as an animal rights activist even on KZread. Take care.👍💚

The Warning is good and sets the tone. Well done.

@jayeshpatel9854

6 күн бұрын

I agree. The way he sets the tone at the beginning is perfect.

So many great points, if only I could turn it into a fart and crop dust carnies. Well done. 😂❤

@with-eyes-unclouded

5 күн бұрын

hahaha thanks well you're welcome to share the link with someone ;D That's kinda similar to crop dusting

Awesome thank you for putting time into this it will definitely make lots of people vegan😊😊😊💚💚💚🐮🐷🐔🫂🫂🫂🤗🤗🤗🌎🌍🌏♥️♥️♥️🙏🙏🙏

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

Thank you Nataly!

Just put the word vegan to the title so I don't see this video. I'm not the right audience.

@checkoutoftheabove9809

8 күн бұрын

Yeah mate, you know my dad said he would ear a vegan 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 the Scottish mind set, am sorry but the Animals should have Evolved harder

@checkoutoftheabove9809

8 күн бұрын

Eat

@Vscustomprinting

8 күн бұрын

You definitely are. In fact, you are the main one.

Unfortunately, unless your audience was already aligned with your viewpoint prior to your lecture, I don't think you would convince much of them to change their sides after this.

valid points, unfortunately I like animal products

@user-vz4gg6cs4l

8 күн бұрын

"You are right, unfortunatly I simply don't care" 🍷🗿

@with-eyes-unclouded

7 күн бұрын

You would probably like the plant based alternatives just as much.

Literally don't care. Change my mind. Some people you just can't convince because they generally don't act moral, because they have an internal need for normative consistency(and especially not a deontological one at that), but just for the outward utility of it. *Also, your argument at 39:20 doesn't work because you can't argue that they have a life worse than death and simultaneously argue that it's bad that they live a way shorter life than their potential life span would allow. But I like how you reframed the old and done to death argument of "You are financially supporting someone who kills animals" to "You are *paying* someone *to* kill animals" at 45:50. That really makes that point more effective.

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

If you're determined to not care, then I won't be able to change your mind. But I could change someone else's mind by being witnessed as the more reasonable one in this discourse. Normative consistency = "going along with the crowd". And yes, many people - like yourself - lack the courage required to stand out, even if it's the right thing to do. But historically, all social movements start with a minority that grows until there is a tipping point where it's socially easier to be inside than outside the movement. That's generally how social progress is made. If your theory was true of populations, we would never have made any social progress. Ever. 39:20 Here I am specifically responding to the myth that farm animals "have a long life with one bad day at the end" (see the slide before). The numbers disprove that. With male egg laying hens, the day in the slaughterhouse marks 100% of their lived experiences. Farm animal's lives are extremely short, therefore the time they spend being abused is proportionately very large. My counter argument to the myth seems to work just fine. And even if the circumstances were different... is it not wrong to exploit the happy and the elderly, just as it is wrong to exploit the suffering and the young? 45:50 I'm not sensationalizing. The outcome of both these actions is the same. In the first wording: you are depleting a stock that will be once again filled by the supplier. In free market capitalism, suppliers respond to what stock is being bought / sold. This beginner-level principle should not be hard to grasp, even though you are struggling with a severe case of cognitive dissonance.

@user-vz4gg6cs4l

8 күн бұрын

@@with-eyes-unclouded You didn't get me, AT ALL. And in regards to my first point, you kinda proved my right. You also wrongly interpreted many of my remarks, which weren't necessarily meant as attacks. 1)I specifically said "change my mind!", because I hoped that as someone who is clearly basing their veganism on a, at least mostly, intellectual basis you would actually have some mind blowing argument I haven't heard before. I new perspective is always valuable, and you never know, maybe an argument that would make people like me vegan is out there? 2) normative doesn't mean "normal" but means smt. like "expected of / should do". If I do "good" things and believe I'm a good person, than to keep my internal normative "consitency" intact, I musn't do bad things. (This is a gross generaliztaion, I know) When I said "need for internal normative consistency" I meant that some people really can't live with the fact that they do something which they have no excuse for, while others can. In the world of food, some people can't live with the fact that their food comes from dumbing down, raping and grooming and brutally executing animals; they become vegans to keep their normative consitency intact. This is not a matter of pure emotion like so many anti-vegans make it out to be. Most people becoming vegans are just more passivly conscientious than other people. 3) I'm VERY aware of the double standard me and so many others are employing, I just don't care. And I know others who think just like me and without social punishments would keep eating animal products forever, no matter how developed and enlightened society becomes. I'm just saying that you shouldn't make content trying to convince people like that, because you very likely can't, it's waste of your time. Maybe a therapist can make them a better person, but not some youtube videos, no matter how good they are. 4) When I talked about 39:20 and 45:50 I generally wanted to help / compliment you, because I find it a shame (even if I don't agree with them) when some honest activist hurts their own cause, by seeming dishonest and accordingly alienating people with the opposite opinion. 5) 39:20 So there are 2 possibilities how you could have meant that: 5.1) You really just wanted to disprove the myth. Meaning your argument was not showing something bad, but removing something good. The latter is generally weaker than the former, but I can see how bringing that point across is necessary for this essay because it kinda serves as a shield non-vegan and anti-vegans. 5.2) However, it very much seems as if you wanted to use the fact that these animals have a horrible AND short life as an argument in of itself and not just as a rebuttal to one. But like I said, that ( in combination at least) also makes for a weak argument. Because IF life is extremly horrible and all you can really mentally do is feel (a cow can't find another purpose in life other than to be happy and or socially content because it's not smart enough for that) than isn't a death better? And accordingly, wouldn't a sooner death be better than a much later one in these horrible conditions? Now you might argue that it's horrible that they life in these conditions in the first place, BUT that's a seperate point, which is AGAIN, why you shouldn't combine those. 6) 45:50 That wasn't sarcasm, I literally meant what I said. Your reframing ( which is totally legitimate, there isn't ONE single perspective to look at things) puts the involvement of consumers into a clear perspective. It's very simple , but I don't remember anyone doing it in past video essays I've watched. All in all, I think it was a good first (big) video essay. I just think you should play devils advocate more often for your own arguments. I know you won't like taking compliments from me, but you have a very solid structure in your video which concisely works through the issue from a very intuitive beginning all the way through the end. The only thing that ruins that a little is that you (sometimes) make arguments that either personally attack your target audience or make emotionally loaded arguments, which if really looked at are weak.

@with-eyes-unclouded

8 күн бұрын

​@@user-vz4gg6cs4l Ok, thank you for clarifying. there are some points where i misunderstood you and I am sorry for that. Particularly your last paragraph I thought the tone was sarcastic. My bad. If any third party wants to weigh in on this; is "Literally don't care. Change my mind" meant to be percieved as the start of a supportive comment? Was I unreasonable to misunderstand the tone of the comment? We vegans get a LOT of pssionate backlash so you can see how that misunderstanding can happen. Now I will be happy to go through your points and hopefully I don't catch the wrong end of the stick again... 1) Asking to be "Mind-blown" is bit of a tall order, isn't it? How should I know what you will find subjectively "mind-blowing"? Justice for animals is quite a simple straight forward concept which you have already admitted to being aligned with, at least in principle if not in practice. Children can grasp veganism just fine. Why does this need to be profound? That's a strange litmus test for a mode of ethics you are choosing whether or not to adopt. Why do you require mental whiplash? Because you want to be entertained? I get that you are out here collecting esoteric perspectives as if they're rare pokemon, but If you only crave entertainment, why should anything you do or say be taken seriously in the field of ethics? 2) Yes, people's innate desire to be consistent pushes them to the side of justice or apathy. It's a shame you were pushed towards apathy, but at least you are engaging with me here. When conflicted, people feel compelled to either change their behaviour to be in line with their values, or they change their values to match their behaviour - in your case by constructing the narrative "I don't care". You also seem to derive sufficient comfort from being self-aware of your double standards (3), without realizing that self-awareness is not an adequate substitute for ethical consistency. It's more like a flex of "look, i'm so smart that i can even see my own inconsistencies". If you can see your inconsistencies, you should strive to fix them, instead of just acknowledging them. Less talk, more action please. 3) First I want to address your "I don't care" defense. The level to which you are interested in an injustice should have no bearing on whether you participate in it. e.g. I might have no interest in tripping up old people as they walk past me. But if I commit the act, that act carries equal severity for the victim as if I was extremely fascinated by the subject. In other words: You're seeing everything from the perpetrator's point of view, when justice must always consider the victim's experience to live up to our understanding of true justice. Secondly, and I hope you don't take this badly, but you do not have adequate experience or knowledge to be able to predict the future behaviour of people. So maybe your hot take is that activism is futile, but it seems like you are at the peak of false confidence in the subject of activism and social justice. You understand the jist of how it works, but no in-person experience of seeing just how quickly people can change when their inconsistencies are revealed to them, or the compounding influence of vegans in a non-vegan community. +No statistical backing, + no historical case studies. So when you tell me "it won't catch on" - it doesn't match with any of my knowledge or first-person experience and so frankly I have no reason to believe you. You're welcome to try harder. 4) I will take on board that those are where you felt were the most triggering, but aside from that I would ask you to see the big fat warning at the start of the presentation. It is natural to feel defensive when the ego is threatened, and there's only so much i can do to mitigate the feeling of alienation a lifelong carnist might feel at watching a presentation like this. These two points still stand. You didn't dismantle them. I guess I can try to pad these harsh truths out with some fluff to cushion their impact some more.. If that is really necessary. But know that the aim of the AR movement is not to appeal to the most hard-core carnists. It's to appeal to the younger open-minded demographics. We don't need to win over everyone, just a sufficient number of the public to start a snowball. To understand this, you need to study social movements of the past. Women's rights, gay rights, civil rights are good places to start. 5.1) yes, it is a self-contained counter argument that shuts down a very annoying and pervasive myth that many carnists (my past self included) hang their beliefs on. 5.2) You are creating what we call a false-dichotomy: Early death or late death - which one is better for an abused victim. You fail to explore the extremely reasonable option of NOT FORCIBLY BREEDING THEM INTO EXISTENCE. That eliminates the problem entirely. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this option? Are you arguing in good faith? Animal liberation doesn't call for shorter lives or longer lives. AL calls for no ownership of anyone. No forced breeding, and no killing. I thought I made that pretty clear in the presentation.. We're not in the activity of calculating suffering as numbers in a utilitarian calculus. That's all you. 6) Ok. Thank you. Humans are emotional creatures. There's a wealth of psychological studies to show the role emotions play in human decision making. Why hide from who we are? My emotional appeals are an important component of the whole thing. The reasoning alone does not stir anyone to take action. Once again, your inexperience in the field of activism and persuasion is revealed to me. Actions always speak louder than words, so while I will accept your compliments, they will only be rather shallow to me, as my points were insufficient to break you from the spell of moral apathy. Unless of course you think more about this and come round to the ideas to the point where your actions align with your values. Then I would be delighted.

@breninaotearoa4152

8 күн бұрын

⁠@@with-eyes-unclouded I think you are well on your way to being like Earthling Ed. Whereas @user has surpassed himself as being… just another troll.