For me, the most compelling magic of the lord of the rings has always been the magic of an open and unspoiled land, of wild and ancient forests, tall mountains, overgrown gardens, and the hospitality that a traveler finds in far away places.

@gleann_cuilinn

4 ай бұрын

Oh and I would love to hear your thoughts and research on the magic of Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea. I would also like to point you to a little known short story called "Silver or Gold' by Emma Bull which I think really plays into the tensions between Goetia and Magia and the trouble of trying to come up with a magic system in the first place.

@sebastianevangelista4921

4 ай бұрын

@@gleann_cuilinn Dominic Noble has two videos called 'The Deceit And Broken Promises Behind The Worst Adaptation Ever' and 'Earthsea ~ Lost in Adaptation' that I think you might enjoy.

@samuelleask1132

4 ай бұрын

Same here

@TravelsTTG

4 ай бұрын

Oh and the creatures!

@Fooma777

4 ай бұрын

Much agreed, and well said!

Gandalf: I have no memory of this place. Boromir: Here, roll this twenty…

@slaapliedje

3 ай бұрын

Ha, I quote Gandalf a lot lately to my boss, when he tries to ask me if I remembered something... sucks getting old. I should probably get a wizard robe and hat, it might help.

@Perktube1

3 ай бұрын

@@slaapliedje I hear you. Many times wondering why I was in the room I just walked into. 🤔🤭

"I can only predict the self-fulfilling prophesies." ~ Paul Atreides

@pufthemajicdragon

4 ай бұрын

"I **am** the self-fulfilling prophecy." ~ Miles Teg "Hold my spice beer." ~ Duncan Idaho

@liberpolo5540

Ай бұрын

LOVE the Dune reference!!

Saruman seems to get his philosophy from Plato, who says "The wise shall lead and rule, and the ignorant shall follow", and who envisions a state with unbreakable class barriers between the producers and the rulers. Plato also was an unapologetic collectivist - "You are created for the sake of the whole, and not the whole for the sake of you." Tolkien strikes me as an individualist (or maybe that's because I'm an individualist, and I like Tolkien, so therefore he must agree with me."

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

This is a great observation!

@emmathomas2832

4 ай бұрын

I don't know that his writing would support exclusively either a collectivist or an individualist world view. Great works are done by the individual. Who they are as people plays an important part in their deeds and they are valued and honoured as individuals. All of Gondor hears Boromir's horn and they all grieve him because he was loved. Minas Tirith bows to four hobbits at the end of the films (honestly can't remember if something similar happens in the books) for their great deeds. But they are also all constantly talking about the good of the free peoples of middle earth. Merry and Pippin get Treebeard and the other Ents to destroy Isengard to protect the Shire. (or at least they resolve that they can't go back there without seeing the whole thing through because it will come there eventually) Frodo and Sam do their great deed with no hope for their own survival at the end because the world at large needs them to. The individual does things for the sake of the whole and the whole does things for the sake of the individual. I do love your observation about Saruman and Plato though - very cool

@brucealanwilson4121

4 ай бұрын

But Plato said that anybody with the ability could rise to the ruling class. He even said that women could, which was so radical then that it was practically insane.

@josephpercy1558

4 ай бұрын

@Valdagast - Plato by no means "envisions a state with unbreakable class barriers between the producers and the rulers." He has rather quite progressive views for the time period -- i.e., that women ought to have socially equal roles to that of men. His ideal 'Republic' to which you refer is a rhetorical exercise based entirely upon metaphysical premises -- in no way was it meant to be a realistic model. To assert otherwise means that you're probably not paying much attention to all of his dialogues, or more specifically, to that which precedes 'Republic.'

@Valdagast

4 ай бұрын

@@josephpercy1558 I disagree. I think Plato really thought his _Republic_ could be brought to life. In this I follow Karl Popper. I think his analysis in _The Open Society and its Enemies_ is largely correct.

I am old (Grandpa old!😄) and I just read The Hobbit and LOTR for the first time last month. I really find your video essays enlightening and entertaining. Thank you for helping me appreciate Tolkien's works even more.

@xpallodoc1147

4 ай бұрын

That’s not old for LOTR keep in mind Bilbo was in his fifties when the hobbit started and who even knows how old some of the other characters are. But yes I get what you’re saying you went your entire life not reading this popular series

@hendrikm9569

4 ай бұрын

That's amazing, I'm happy you seem to have enjoyed those :D Do you plan on reading the silmarillion as well? It is my favourite book, and it deepens the lore so much, but it has a reputation for being a hard read. Should, you plan on reading it but have trouble, I'd recommend watching Tolkien Geeks Silmarillion Synopsis videos for the chapter you have just read. That has helped me quite a lot on my first read through.

@binglamb2176

4 ай бұрын

@@xpallodoc1147 I related to the aged Bilbo!

@binglamb2176

4 ай бұрын

@@hendrikm9569 Yes indeed!

@hendrikm9569

4 ай бұрын

@@binglamb2176 I hope you will get as much out of it as I do :) The Tolkien Illustrations Edition is very nice, should you still be looking for one.

Speaking of C.S. Lewis since friendship is so important in the Lord of the Rings, do you think a video going into Tolkien' s friendships and how they shaped his writing be a possibility?

Haven’t listened yet, but since I was a kid my fellow Tolkien nerds and I knew the lack of bald-faced magic was a good thing. We knew that seeing the flashes on Weathertop was more interesting dramatically than to see Gandalf’s power, just as there was no Gandalf / Sauron battle at the end: because in the end power isn’t interesting. Of COURSE we like to think that there’s more to this world than we know, more behind the scenes, or the idea of characters who can bend the rules of reality. But at some point they just become gods, and omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence are just… not that interesting. Listen to Alan Watts discuss ‘The God Problem,’ - it’s this very same issue. We don’t actually want power (though so many think they do)… we want struggle and achievement and the feeling of meaning that comes from those things. Magic quickly neuters the meaning of struggle, and so props to Tolkien for doing it all very beautifully (perhaps the deus ex machina eagles aside, though they’re technically not ‘magic’). Thanks for this channel! Check out mine for original and cover singer songwriter stuff. Cheers!

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

This is such a good point. This quote didn't make it into the video, but it feels pertinent: “Part of the attraction of The L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed." (Letter 247) The magic really is in the mystery. Best of luck with your music!

@cecilcharlesofficial

4 ай бұрын

@@Jess_of_the_Shire “Due to the glimpses of a large history in the background.” YES. Was just thinking today how even now I’m a sucker for say, like on a Magic card (I played in high school), when it’d have some quote from some fantasy culture the card or the art referenced - how just alluding to those cultures is enchanting. It’s almost comical how we fall for it (whether Magic did the depth of world building that Tolkien did, I don’t know know) but the little quotes, as if the cultures they referenced really existed or were thought out, always got me. Thanks and best of luck on your channel too - you’re killing it!

Do you get as aggravated as I do with the "who would win in a fight--Gandalf or Dumbledore? Gandalf or Loki? Gandalf or the Archangel Michael?" Like literally the whole point is that the super powerful in Tolkien's world don't have to show it all the time and magic is a servant, not a ruler. OK, I'll get off my soapbox. Always a pleasure, Jess!

@xpallodoc1147

4 ай бұрын

One punch man would win

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, those aren't my favorite. It's just a really shallow exploration into these worlds, and also...kind of impossible to say imo. Every once in a while, they can be fun though! Thanks for watching!

@sebastianevangelista4921

4 ай бұрын

@@Jess_of_the_Shire I would say that a fun example is the Sauron vs. Lich King episode of Death Battle.

@worrier2warrior851

4 ай бұрын

No, cuz obviously Gandalf would win 😂

@Patdeamon

4 ай бұрын

"10 strongest LotR characters ranked" 😑

Just got to your observation about the Seer Man and Saruman and you are right; It is also a reflection of Gandalf’s terror at taking the ring himself! The temptation was real, and he, unlike Saruman, saw and avoided the danger

"Magic always comes with a price" is the most necessary piece of information you can acquire from any perspective involving a story. Whether you're the writer, protagonist, antagonist, or wildcard. Tolkien was an intelligent, individual..... truelly a master of "his craft".

@ARVETDEG

4 ай бұрын

George RR Martin followed that rule too. In his world there's magic. But always at a cost. And I actually like that very much, as it balances the powers and makes the story more interesting.

@sebastianevangelista4921

4 ай бұрын

This reminds me of when Donny Cates wrote a monologue for Loki in the first issue of his run on Doctor Strange: "I've been thinking about this for some time now. This business about magic always having some sort of 'cost'. Some sort of 'price'. It's quite silly, is it not? I think it's time we reexamine the rules a bit, yes? I am not now, nor have I ever been fond of 'the rules'. Call me old fashioned, but I tend to think that you fair witches and warlocks should have the freedom to go about your duties without killing rodents and vomiting everywhere, don't you? I mean, honestly. Magic by its very nature is the antithesis of 'rules', yes? The 'rules' say that there's no rabbit in the hat. And yet poof! Here is a rabbit! So, where am I going with this? How about no more rules. How about no more 'price'".

@obadijahparks

4 ай бұрын

​@@ARVETDEGI am not fond of his writing; that being said, I understand your point. The Witcher is more my speed when it comes to magic. The cost is set in stone, but one may have more ability to push one's self past anothers limitations. The unfair abilities, and limitations, of some over others is a fact of life. This story aspect may not be outright spoken as concrete law; however has continuously remained self evident. At least within the books. Certainly a stirring topic non the less... :)

@obadijahparks

4 ай бұрын

​@@sebastianevangelista4921funny enough, this too came at great cost. 😅

@RunemasterRick

4 ай бұрын

So true deary.

“[Magic] is a rhythm of the universe, a power that beats at the heart of all of our imaginations.” It has been many years since I’ve read the Lord of the Rings, but one thing that struck me coming from other fantasy (mostly Dragon Lance) was the lack of spells as such. In Middle Earth, magic was more the tendency of things, a reflection of a will, the music you can almost hear from just behind the world. Should someone of my age dare to say: vibes? I’m sure there is more direct action and I’m forgetting something because people more familiar with Tolkien’s world suggest otherwise, but it is gone from my memory and this will likely remain my headcanon if nothing else. Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by waters. - Norman Maclean

@ltchugacast131

3 ай бұрын

I got the impression that some people just have a stronger impression on the world. A more potent spirit if you’d permit. However the purest spirits remain humble and within their vessel but ask for help from the supernatural realm in times of dire need. But corrupt spirits crack the vessel so to speak and cut themselves off and leak their essence every where and into everything and their malice and selfish delusions corrupt all they taint with their defiled ego spilled upon the land. The evil creatures that perform their acts of shock and awe seem to be imparting a diminishing effect on themselves like burning a candle at both ends. But the heroes don’t have the same affliction because instead of spreading themselves to the point of fading they held to faith and the power overseeing middle earth gave them little nudges of help.

There are small magics in tolkiens world, usually what you see gandalf do, like start fires or open doors and there's crafting, the making or rings and special items but he deeper magic seems to be almost unseen, unless it's a real powerful item like the silmaril's the the light of glaladriel it keeps a place safe. like the shire (there is a power of a sort there) imladrids or Lothlorien places where no one is runnnig aronud making with the bibbity-bobbity-bo, but where there clearly is magic at work

I love that Gandalf the wizard doesn't cast fireballs with his magics, he uses Narya, his magic is to be a beacon for people and Narya's other effect compliments that perfectly. Keeping magic subdued and imbued in powerful magical artifacts is such a smart and approachable way to understand the setting. Edit: Like he fights the Balrog with Glamdring and his staff gets destroyed and uses Narya to diminish the Balrog's inferno.

I love the "Will and the word" magic from David Eddings The Belgariad/The Malloreon. If you have the will power to do something, speak the word and it happens.

@Fred_Lougee

4 ай бұрын

Eddings started writing the books as a way to present his system of magic. Keep in mind that he was a literature professor who was a total fanboy of Eleanor of Aquitaine.

@doctorlolchicken7478

4 ай бұрын

Is that the one where the boy is trying to lift a rock with his mind and he ends up sinking into the ground? As a kid I always thought that was a cool example of the perils of learning magic.

@brucealanwilson4121

4 ай бұрын

​@@Fred_LougeeHe was also a convicted child abuser.

@jessegauthier6985

3 ай бұрын

​@@brucealanwilson4121 oh

A very nice survey. I believe the point of Tolkien's Faerie is that it is a metaphor for the world of the imagination, which by an everyday magic we step into in any good fantasy story (written or on screen). The metaphor, being present in the work itself, is what gives it its " peculiar mood and power" (On Fairy Stories).

@VardaMusic

3 ай бұрын

Perhaps Tolkien looked at the natural world and truly believed there were things in it that science isn’t meant to explain. If you’ve ever had the feeling someone was about to call you, then the phone rings, or you suddenly hit the brakes because you have a bad feeling, then an animal runs in front of your car you didn’t see, (I’ve experienced both- many times with the phone), and you start to realize your senses extend beyond the recognized physical reach of the human body….that is something that might fall into the simpler version of magic described in this video. And it doesn’t have to be at odds with a belief in God- rather, it’s the humble acknowledgement that we are tiny beings in a huge universe which has life and energy and creatures in it we know nothing about.

For magic systems, you might want to check out the magic system in A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin. It's based on the idea that everything has a "true name" and knowing the true name of a thing gives you power over it.

@user-gl5dq2dg1j

4 ай бұрын

I think this is an ancient idea. As from the legends of sorcerers who predated Merlin in Ireland/Britain.

@josephfisher426

3 ай бұрын

@@user-gl5dq2dg1j Rumplestiltskin is a popular distillation of the idea.

@MichaelDharma23

3 ай бұрын

@@user-gl5dq2dg1j I wouldn't be surprised if LeGuin drew inspiration from some ancient tradition from the real world.

@Tokmurok

3 ай бұрын

​@@user-gl5dq2dg1jwould you happen to know any of those legends specifically?

@kregy7509

3 ай бұрын

Jim Butchers Dresden Files also use similiar method among other ones. Demons and some magical beings will make a co tract with you and help you, but as they are i herebtly malicious they will not do it for free and often they ask for tour name. Wizards tend to have multiple names just so they can trade a few and still not be under control. Magic, faith, contracts or even potion making is really interesting in it. For example, technology breaks around wizards. So the MC has to drive an old car that has less moving parts and no electronic parts.

One of the most interesting magic is the Will and the Word, from the Belgariad series (although Polgara said it was more like the Wish and the Word). In brief, the sorcerer think of what he wants and says to word to make it happen. There are limitations: - doing something by sorcery takes as much energy as to make it normally, so a sorcerer may exhaust himself by doing something hard, like pushing a big mass of air; - doing something impossible, like resurrecting someone who has a sword in the chest, may drain completely a sorcerer; - using sorcery create a "noise" that other sorcerers can "hear", which is inconvenient in enemy territory; - undoing something, erasing it from existence, is forbidden and the sorcerer himself will be erased instead (killing someone is fine, it only transform someone from alive to not alive). Sorcerers often say that using sorcery is so much trouble, they only use it if there is no alternative. About the video itself, you did not dive enough into the nature of magic in Middle-Earth. My understanding is that magic is from the inner strength of people, not an outside tool. Using magic put some of the magician into his creation. Yavanna put so much of herself into the 2 trees of Valinor that she did not have the strength to do it a second time; Fëanor put a lot of himself into the Silmarils, and of course Sauron and the One ring. Men have the least of that inner force, so the creations of the Elves and Dwarves seem magical to them.

@humphrey4480

2 ай бұрын

I remember a funny scene where the main character was trying to move a boulder upwards and ended up moving himself 2 feet into the ground instead

@ghyslainabel

2 ай бұрын

@@humphrey4480 more than 2 feet. The guy was 15 and he was down to his armpits in the ground. He also succeeded to turn the bounder over while being pushed into the ground by the weight of the boulder.

Another great video, thank you! As for magic systems I'd love to hear you talk about, Le Guin's Earthsea has always been a favorite. Cheers!

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

I love Earthsea! It'll definitely be on the list

@sebastianevangelista4921

4 ай бұрын

Dominic Noble has two videos called 'The Deceit And Broken Promises Behind The Worst Adaptation Ever' and 'Earthsea ~ Lost in Adaptation' that I think you might enjoy.

@revmarkwillems9312

4 ай бұрын

I second this notion and am glad it's on your radar.

@pony_bonnyman

2 ай бұрын

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Yes please on Earthsea; always has been my second favorite fantasy world/series after Tolkien.

I mean, Tolkien did have the elvish concept that we would equate with magic be more appropriately describe as “craft” compared with the lies of the Enemy.

The magic system in Middle Earth has always intrigued me. It would be interesting to delve into each individual moment that Gandalf casts a spell. And after watching Corey Olsen's exploring Middle Earth series from the moment Gandalf lights the fire on Caradhras, he seems to cast a lot of spells and i dont think i ever realised it until now . The encounter with the wolves, to the spells he tries on the doors of Moria before realising speak friend and enter. The small light he uses on top of his staff to guide through Moria. The holding spell he puts on the door that gets broken by the Balrog and almost breaks him. I think its part of Tolkiens genius to make it so subtle but if you think about it its actually quite powerful. If you think about it in a real world sense i think the spell he uses in the encounter with wolves outside of Moria might be the most striking reason why Gandalf is reluctant to use magic. If you cast a spell in order to protect yourself and your party but in doing so burns down a wide radius of the surrounding forrest. Being a Being of compassion such as Gandalf who knows that his spells can have devastating consequences to the natural environment around him I can totally understand his reluctance to use them. But if you had malevolent intent like a Sauron or Saruman casting spells might not have the same moral issue.. Its still so intriguing..

@joel6376

4 ай бұрын

I kinda think the concept that there isn't much magic in lotr is quite.. absurd. When you go back and look at it there is magic is almost every chapter in one way or another. It is written more subtly than modern fantasy "he cast a fireball at the orc". Another part of moira that isn't gandalf : But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder.

Another great parallel of Tolkien's magic, in the early ages magic was interwoven with twilight and rituals, and became almost simpler over time, alluding to how the great things waned over ages into less sacred and more mundane.

Dr. Justin Sledge's channel, Esoterica, goes into extensive detail about the Renaissance study of magic.

Something I've grown to respect and find fascinating in LotR is that how very little magic actually goes on on the page, or at least very little of what we commonly might think of magic in a fantasy story. Not only that but, the world of Middle Earth in Frodo's age is a world where "magic" is rapidly fading. As the long age of elves comes to an end and makes way for the age of men, it seems to speak to a renewed world where mankind is left free to prosper and flourish without the interference of powers beyond their reckoning.

Very well done and well researched look at not just magic in Middle Earth, but at Tolkien, Lewis, and the Inklings thoughts on magic. I appreciate the effort you put into this! The four circle Venn diagram was something that even now makes me rethink a lot of the esoteric concepts of these forces, and it's fun to consider these still. I liked how, in Middle Earth, magic wasn't intended to be the go-to toolbox for solving any problem, but instead a powerful, dangerous tool to be used only just enough when the need was greatest. My dad, who read the books to my little sister and me as bedtime stories when we were young, took the time to answer my questions about why people didn't just use magic for everything. He told me that the Wizards were not there to save the free people from evil, but to help them to free themselves from it. Becoming reliant on the wizards for a solution to every problem would make them weaker and more ineffective, turning them into servant people if not slaves under the wizard overclass. The only way for the free people to be free was for them to pay the price of that freedom and learn to fight and overcome evil on their own. To eleven year old me that sounded mean, but at the same time I got it. I knew my parents had left me to fend for myself when I had difficult tasks to do, and had even set difficult tasks for me to do, and I felt better and more accomplished and capable once I achieved those tasks. So it made sense, even if it sounded mean. By the same token, dad also refused to allow me to use magic for my tasks (i.e. his power tools when I was trying to build stuff) and he refused to use magic to help me. So I learned how to hammer, saw, drill, and so on for myself, which meant that when I was places where magic wouldn't work (i.e. nowhere to plug one of my own power tools in) I could still do what needed to do. I appreciate my mechanical engineer father's way of explaining the minimal use of magic in the books, and then relating it to how I needed to learn to do things for myself in the real world. Also, as my engineer father pointed out, much of the magic in Middle Earth was bound up in things, things which could easily be used or corrupted for negative purposes. The Palantiri being corrupted by Sauron to warp the minds of those who used them was similar to how the internet, originally intended as a method for communication and networking together for learning, has become corrupted into being used more for awful purposes, such as bullies extending schoolyard abuse into ways of tormenting classmates in their own homes. And yes, there are dozens of other examples of cruelty and hatefulness, but I think that bullies hurting children in their homes where they should feel safe is one of the worst examples. But, to the former point, it made the reasons for not relying on magic all the more obvious. From Denethor's over-reliance on a Palantir to Galadriel's warning words about what would be seen in the mirror, magic had a cost for the careless. Just like, to return to my dad's example, the fact that a careless or distracted moment with a hand saw could lead to a nasty cut, while the same moment with the "magic" of a power saw could lead to crippling or even death. Truth: In all my life I've never been comfortable around power saws and try not to use them if I have another option. Ridiculous, maybe, but so am I. 😛 Anyway, very well done and sorry for too many stories about what dad taught me. He's been gone a year and a half now and yet he's still with me in stories.

I'm very interested in the place of animism in the magic of Middle Earth. It's extremely blatant in Narnia, with its dryads and literally anthropomorphized rivers. Middle Earth has its wicked trees and ornery mountains and playful, but dangerous, rivers.

Very interesting topic for me, a Greek, as both of words come from greek. "goeteia" from "γοητεία" which means to charm or be charming to others, while "magia" comes from either "μαγεία" that means literally "magic", or "μάγια" which means multiple magics or spells Great video, as always

My favourite magic of any fantasy world, that I'd love for you to cover: true names, in the Earthsea world.

Very well done! Two comments. First, if you have not read CSL's That Hideous Strength, you might want to consider the parts where Merlin is brought into the present and Ransom's comments on Merlin's magic -- essentially that it's an art which belongs in the past when the world was a bit less well defined. Ransom tells Merlin that it was morally dubious even in Merlin's day and the practice of it had hurt him, and today is simply forbidden. Secondly, may I recommend Patricia McKillip , a most underrated and nearly forgotten writer whose fantasies are all different but which all have magics which are the antitheses of systematic, and seem to have a lot in common with JRRT's.

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much for the recommendations!

I am pleased to hear your summary of the Inklings' thinking on Magia, Goeteia, Science, and Religion. I'd point out that other thinkers have set the boundaries of the magical arts somewhat differently, so it's worth not taking these definitions of Magia and Goeteia as absolute. For example, some thinkers - and here I am thinking of Jake Stratton-Kent in his work Geosophia (2 vols) and the other parts of his Encyclopaedia Goetica, though I am sure there are others who escape me at the moment - define Goetia as relational and personal, similar to Religion, with Magia as impersonal, similar to Science. Which is tangential to your discussion here, but since you do intend to look at magic more widely I thought I'd mention it.

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

The Magia/Goeteia is certainly not the be-all and end all of magic. I don't even think Tolkien thought so, as he only used them to define his magic once or twice in writing. I'll have to check out your recommendations, thanks for sharing!

You should read Keith Thomas's book "Religion and the Decline of Magic: Studies in Popular Beliefs in Sixteenth and Seventeenth-Century England" Covers this topic in great detail.

You touched upon Shippey's book and I noticed that paperback copy, which was displayed in your shelf in your last video, is missing. An obvious fact that you picked it up to use it for this video essay. I notice these subtle differences as I am familiar with almost any and every Tolkien book, and all those yearly editions - whether books by Tolkien or on Tolkien.

I cried during this video - your understanding of magic in Middle-Earth, but also metatextual aspect of it, as in effect Tolkien's writing has on us and what it meant to him, it was and it is what captured me in his works and still strikes me with it's moody and deep, deep beauty.

Loved this video, Jess! My favorite aspect of magic in Tolkien's worldbuilding, is his restraint and his rejection of using magic to write himself out of story or character dilemmas. I like when Gandalf could perhaps solve a problem with the application of his magic powers, yet chooses to rely on non-magic characters to sort out the problem instead for their own growth and benefit. As James Bond tells Q in SKYFALL, the art is not to pull the trigger, but to know when not to pull it.

For me, I've always felt there's a type of Magic linked to the history or legend of things in the Lord of the rings. Stuff like the power that comes from the recognition of Aragorn's sword, or The horn of Gondor making even the balrog pause.

It's funny. I got into a discussion on just this subject with a group of friends of mine last year. The one takeaway that I got that defined Tolkien Magic vs most others (D&D, Dresden, most every other Fantasy setting) is that magic is not supernatural. It is a part of the natural world and It is through the working of natural processes that one can "do" magic. Can Gandolf shoot fire at a Nazgul. Yes. But it is his nature to be able to do that. When Elves hammer light into an object, that is a natural function of the world that they have learned how to do through many generations of men. While often times described as "soft", magic in Arda is just part of the world like air and gravity. It is more subtle than some, but no less potent for it.

One of my absolute favorite magic systems is from "the Malazan book of the fallen" Somewhere between magia and goeteia (sp), some have connections to elemental planes called warrens that they can train to be able to harness, travel through, and in some limited way control, but it wears at them to do so

I'd really like the Dune spice-prescience "magic" system

I wonder about how Treebeard would've thought about hobbit forests, farms, and orchards.

Have you ever read The Earthsea Cycle? The magic system is really simple, but it is my favourite

I enjoyed the magic system in Jackal of Nar. It’s like a fantasy world with everything but magic, but there’s this dude, the bad guy, walking around out with magic, controlling the weather, killing people and whatnot. So the characters question whether these rumors are true. It wraps the magic system up with the question of if it’s even real. And then, as far as I’ve read of the book after it, it doesn’t come back. There’s just a lot that’s happened that you could forget that there even was magic

Thanks so much for the breakdown. Its really interesting to see different types of magic categorised. As an aspiring fantasy writer, i find magic tough. You want it to be mysterious and unknowable, but also, to avoid deus ex machina as you point out it is a bit of LoTR, it needs to be defined. Iv always enjoyed the magic system(s) in the Rivers of London series.

Steven Greydanus has an excellent article at Decent Films comparing the cautionary use of magic with Tolkein compared to us of magic in Harry Potter.

I'm so glad I've discovered your channel. Excellent content. Regarding Magic systems, the one from the Eragon series is quite interesting, same with Shadowrun.

Wonderful discussion of magic in Tolkien and Lewis. Thank you

I loved the outro talking about the magic of tolkien work. You probably already know it but some " spiritual' and other magic movement like wicca or Obod love to talk about the magic of art , especially written and talked ones. Thats why you need "spell " ( like in spelling ) to create magic, to cast a spell is manifesting the unatural. Always loved that. Who havent feel the magic of a grrat text, a wonderfull song or a deep poem. Anyway. Love your videos and hope you the best with this channel. Take care and blessed be 🙏🏻✌🏻

This something me and friend of mine discussed over my own tabletop rpf system. I still want to have spells and spellbooks, but my magic is more of what the Inklings calls "Magia" or what Sanderson calls "Soft Magic" than Goetia like the D&D Vancian System.

Your the verst persoon to give me this perspective on magic, thank you. I’ll try to put this info to good use

Your video essays are excellent as always. Thank you for sharing this!

While Lewis was writing English Literature in the Sixteenth Century Excluding Drama, he used to joke that it was his "O Hel" volume, OHEL an acronym for the series, "Oxford History of the English Language".

I still remember my sheer delight reading the Silmarillion and realizing that the world was sung into creation, and then looking back at the Lord of the Rings how songs had power in the story.

By far my favourite magic system in any medium is the one portrayed in Patricia A. McKillip's "Alphabet of Thorns". In this fantasy, Magic is never explained, nor is it explainable. It exists, and there are wizards who utilize it, but even Master Wizards are rightly "masters" by the admission that they do not, and CANNOT, ever fully know what precisely it is that they do. It feels very much right up Tolkein's alley.

Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Not sure how that fits into your pie charts, but it does reflect what scientists think of science, rather than what literary/philosophical types do. ;-)

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

That's such an interesting point!

@pinkmouse4863

4 ай бұрын

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Yes, it's a strange facet of our culture that tries to put things in boxes, or try to cope with the unexplainable by making up stories about them. I'm sure at some point someone here, (if they haven't already), will post that Newton was also an achemist, as if the two things were polar opposites. The fact is, science is just a way of viewing the universe, a procedure, (sometimes flawed in retrospect), of trying to understand stuff that happens to us. It's quite possible to be a scientific magician, or a scientific believer in religeon, though those may tend to be quite shortlived.

@sebastianevangelista4921

4 ай бұрын

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Elder Race by Adrian Tchaikovsky plays around with that idea.

Thank you for the lovely sense of wonder you imbue in all of your videos videos.

Since you asked for magic system suggestions, my favourite is probably the one from Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.

Your videos are so detailed and well presented! Thanks for sharing

My enjoyment of this video has been tarnished at about the halfway point because im now thinking we could have almost actual magic if academia and grant funding allocation wasnt so fucked. Picture a promising study on something wild like immortality going unfunded because we gotta discover yet another particle so an old theory makes sense and egos arent bruised

I just found your channel today! I love it!

I'm always reminded of one of my earliest introductions to cinematic magic (I think you'd refer to it here as Goetia) presented in a way that shows "there are rules" - the evil sorcerer Koura in "The Golden Voyage of Sinbad". In that film, the sorcerer uses magic to obtain his goals and thwart his opponents, but there is always a cost: he is drained little by little and suffers premature aging each time he calls upon the forces of darkness. Incidentally, that character is played by none other than my favorite Dr. Who, Tom Baker.

For a different sort of magic system, check out the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. Another, somewhat macabre system can be found in David Farland's Runelords series.

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

I'll definitely check that out! I've quite enjoyed the Jim Butcher that I've read.

@revmarkwillems9312

4 ай бұрын

​@@Jess_of_the_Shire Codex is written for a YA audience and bears little resemblance to the Dresden Files. Still, a good read, IMO.

Bravo! Kept seeing you crop up in my recs but jumped at it right away when I saw this videos topic and you hooked me. A deeper inspection than most have given, and for that you've earned a new subscriber in me. Although I always pronounced it Go-a-tay-a in my head...

Love your videos! I have been watching your entire channel recently and I am so excited for more! ❤

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

I'm so glad you've been enjoying them!

What a fantastic and erudite exploration. Thank you for sharing it!

Love your content Jess! U popped up on my feed a couple weeks ago and I've been binge watching ever since! Thanks for all ur insight and all u do!

@Jess_of_the_Shire

4 ай бұрын

I'm so glad you've enjoyed my videos! It's lovely to have you in the community

I wasn't expecting such a deep dive but I really appreciated it. Impressive work.

As usual, your exposition was exquisite. I found the Venn diagrams informative and entertaining, but (as usual) it was the sound of your voice, the sparkle in your eyes, and the cohesion of your narrative that kept me rapt. Thank you. :)

Thank you. This was a wonderful and magical explanation!

This was an excellent introduction to Tolkien's thoughts on magic. Thank you! Would you consider doing a video on his ideas about (and coining of the term) "eucatastrophe"?

Your oratory/editing style and scholarship invariably bring a smile to my face. =) Thank you.

I really appreciated this video! I loved the dive into the academic/philosophical stuff, it was really helpful for framing the discussion of not only Tolkien but Frankenstein, Dune, Arthurian Merlin, etc. I had never heard of the Goetia vs Magia distinction and I love it. Thank you!

I loved this video! I get really put off by a lot of fantasy that obsesses about their magic system as if it's just another discipline of science. For me magic works best as a story telling device when it leans into experience, connection, wonder and mystery. Sometimes I wonder if it is a folly of our contemporary thinking that everything needs to be explained, rather than just experienced. I love the magic of Miyazaki's Studio Ghibli films, where nature is bathed in magic, often simultaneously epic and simple, Elif Shafak's magic in the ordinary, and of course Ursula Le Guinn's Earthsea Cycle needs a mention.

I wish I could like this 1000 times. This is my favorite video of yours so far. Very thought provoking, and I appreciated the colorful Venn diagrams too.

Thanks Jess, this was even more insightful than usual! I’d love to hear your perspective on the mechanics of magic in A Song of Ice and Fire.

generally in many well established fantasy worlds with magic, I was always confused why there is a lack of technology/science. or at the very least, the technology advances very slowly or even stays stagnant, and the general reason people often gave for this was that "magic is better and there is no need for technology" but even if that were true, then technology would still be very useful because the vast majority of the people in these worlds cannot use magic at all.

I love the background music in this video! I know you already talked about the magic systems of CS Lewis in this one a little bit, but I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on that applied to his specific stories when you do your big magic systems video.

Just found this channel, you make really amazing videos! The attention to detail and when you add context or addition information it's done so naturally and is so interesting. Wish you all the best luck in your future KZread endeavors!! Edit: please please do a dune video about Paul dealing with prescience

I found this channel today,I subscribed immediately, God bless you and your work young lady 💜💜💜 respect from Croatia 😇😇😇💜💜💜

Excellent analysis as always Jess, Thank you.

Another great video Jess. I'm loving your insights, your knowledge, your voice and last but not least, your lovely face. I find your videos so relaxing and informative. Thank you and keep up the good work!

An study of mysticism and metaphysics would be beneficial for your approach to these matters, Jess. In the end, Mr. Tolkien was as much mystic and metaphysician as he was anything else, I will suggest. Certainly, I know of no instance when he claimed such a perspective openly, but I am suggesting that it is woven into his work in a subtle manner, which is typical in the attempt to express the ineffable through our normal material means of communication. Myth and metaphor, symbolic representation, poetic allusion ... these are among the ways and manner available to us to communicate our experience of that which cannot be compassed and bounded by material manifestation. All the good fortune possible go with you in this type of study, as, and if you take it up. It is not for the faint hearted, but is rewarding and fulfilling beyond anything else which may be experience, I will humbly offer from my own life's path. Thank you again for your interesting commentary. It is a pleasure to follow along. Onward.

As a Brandon Sanderson fan, both kinds of magic can work well! Also a Discworld fan, and that's definitely a soft magic world.. Well, maybe it's hard magic for Ponder Stibbons, but nobody else seems to actually know how it works.

If you are looking for other magic systems to explore I might suggest Arthurian magic, vis-a-vie Mary Stewart and Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Very insightful and informative. There is a lot more to Lewis than meets the eye!

I'm currently working on a fantasy novels & this was one of the best resources I've come across so far for thinking about magic - thanks Jess!

I just found out your channel thanks to this video and I'm loving it! As far as my favorite magic systems go, I would consider them the elemental bending of Avatar, the Allomancy of Mistborn and that whole mess that was happening on the web serial Pact.

Thank you for making this video. My taste in/view of magic has changed a lot in recent years, and I've really struggled to explain it, let alone find the kinds of stories that satisfy it. (The most I could do is let it influence my own writing, which is both invigorating, and sometimes really frustrating when even I don't know what I want.) The concepts you brought up in this video almost perfectly describe what it is I've been looking for/feeling. Both C.S. Lewis and Tolkien have been *huge* influences on my love of fantasy (I'd even say the Chronicles of Narnia was fundamental to it), so I suppose it makes sense that their ideas on what magic is like would resonate deeply with me. But I'd never realized that they both wrote about it outside of what's in their actual books, let alone that they described it so well! Now I want to see if they've written more about it, but even with just what you included in this video, my imagination has already taken off running. So, thank you again for making it. It's given me a lot to think about!

Just found your channel, Awesome videos. Just to add to the subject, "goetia" from the "Ars goetia" a XIIth century book on Demon summoning (itself part of the bigger Lemegeton Clavicula Salomonis a treaty on summoning magic) based on Solomons supposed imprisonement of demons. Goetia is opposed to Theurgia and Magia naturalia (Demonology vs Magic vs Religion ) especially in late Middle-Ages early Renaissance. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa discusses those 3 aspects in his Three Books of Occult Philosophy (1533). He said : "Now the parts of ceremonial magic are goetia and theurgia. Goetia is unfortunate, by the commerces of unclean spirits made up of the rites of wicked curiosities, unlawful charms, and deprecations, and is abandoned and execrated by all laws." As such both Theurgia and Goetia are ceremonial in essence whereas Magia Naturalia deals with natural force directly it is "nothing else but the highest power of natural sciences" and could be considered as the early sciences. This treaty Lemegeton Clavicula Salomonis was rediscovered in the early XXth century through occultist group (Samuel Mathers and Aleister Crowley ) which helped those concept gain more attention.

Great video, this really helps le to think about how the magic in the story i'm writing works. Not that I hadn't thought of it before, simply a new way of thinking about it.

I really liked the magic system in The Name of the wind by Patrick Rotfuss. The idea that the magic is not just conjured out of the blue but needs a physical catalyst, like, you need to hold a candle to make a fireball out of the flame (might be an exaggeration, as candles are weak source of heat and it never happened in the book but I digress). In the absence of catalyst the magic drains one's life force, eventually leading to death.

Thank you, Jess. ❤❤

Most enjoyable and informative. 👍

An interesting magical system / world is in the series “The Iron Druid Chronicles” by Kevin Hearne. (First book “Hounded”).

Maybe hard to cover but the Forgotten Realms magic of Faerun and divinity of that world is it's own rabbit hole that I found worth going down. Though... with some modern examples like BG3, that don't quite do it perfectly but are great examples.. Along with the descriptions of magic in books like Shadowdale/The Avatar Trilogy, and supplementary books like Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Faiths and Pantheons, and Magic of Faerun.. It's a lot less to read than all the titles might suggest, most of the non novels I've mentioned only have a handful of relevant pages.. but ultimately it was upon understanding and having digested that material, understanding the concept that a Wish/Miracle is a 9th level Spell and there are Spells Above 9th level, and how the Gods (or, as Tolken would describe them, the Ainur and Maiar) are constantly performing and comprehending Miracles every moment beyond what has managed to be comprehended by the Mortal Races. Tbh, not only did those concepts help me understand more intimately the Silmarillion when I read that, all those things were important steps for me to understand the Divinity of OUR world and to take a more critical look at Our history, and led me from being Agnostic to The God of Abraham.

A brilliant review. Thank you for that.

The most cogent exploration of magic is Ursula LeGuin's Earth Sea stories. Her father was the premire American cultureal anthropologists of the early 20th century. So at every reading I attended, someone would ask about her father. Much of cultural anthropology is a study of a cultures believe in their beliefs in magic. The Roman Catholic Priest turns the bread and wine into something spiritual; an exeptable magic.

Amazing video, thank you so much.

It's projecting - as a writer (c'mon my mom says I'm a writer and I'm cool) is coming up with the rules for my worlds and realms, so when I see something I disagree with in someone's fiction or something that negates the "laws of magic" in other books and tv shows/movies that were established previously and then were changed to fit the current story means I have to pick on it as opposed to making sure my house is in order.

Great video. I couldn't help thinking about Lewis' "That Hideous Strength" when you were discussing Merlin (Merlinus & Belbury embody the two magic systems you mentioned). Would love to get your thoughts on Lewis' Space/Ransom Trilogy. : )

I think that part of the reason some people find magic in The Lord of the Rings confusing, is because they expect it to be "FLASH BANG" and it isn't. Magic is generally subtle, and often takes time. Magic is more likely to urge things in a direction, or enhance something, than to blow it up, or instantly turn it into something else. Magic was also tied to places, or bound to objects, the One Ring, the lesser rings, various swords, etc. through crafting. Magic is woven onto the world so it is generally present, while also not being in your face. As far as other magic systems to look at, I would be curious for you to look at the magic system, or possibly systems of Terry Pratchett's Discworld. It has gods, and demons, though on occasion these are the same beings, just wearing different hats, and witches, who all seem to have their own individual systems, and wizards, and sorcerers, who are kind of like wizards, only much more so, and "L" space, and those shops, and the luggage. Leaving you with a few quotes that seem appropriate. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced." (Gehm's Corollary) Barry Gehm Magic is that which we think is beyond our understanding, science is that which we think we can understand if we poke it enough, and technology is that which we have become so familiar with it no longer fascinates us, even if we no longer understand it.

Another great video. You do good work, pal.

King of the dead vs. Witch-king. Fight!