Hey guys! I highly recommend checking out Lessons From The Screenplay's video for more on the writing of The Last Jedi: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eY2ClK6padKufc4.html

@RepublicofTim

6 жыл бұрын

I completely agree with you on this video, Sage. I remember an earlier video of yours where you went into the difference in story and plot and I feel that distinction is important to the Last Jedi as well. A lot of the complaints about the "pointlessness" of Finn's subplot, I feel, are coming from a very plot-focused perspective, and from that perspective alone I could agree. But Finn's subplot isn't plot-driven, its story-driven. From a plot-perspective it's pointless, Finn and Rose's mission ended up not meaning anything in regards to the final battle, and it seemed like a waste of time. But from a story perspective, as you said, Finn changes as a person, he evolves. And that evolution of his character was important to the last battle, with him being ready to sacrifice himself for the Resistance. The trip wasn't pointless to him.

@arthur4350

6 жыл бұрын

The problem with screenwriting lessons or categories about 7 or any even-or-odd number list of questions of wants and needs is that it tries to present a hierarchy or model for criticism when there is no objective model, never has been, never will be. Every film is different, has unique problems and challenges, and the stuff that works as criticism for Man of Steel does not apply to The Last Jedi. None of the characters however they chart the grid you place them on, are actually complex or made interesting in the film. I personally liked The Last Jedi and there are scenes and bits I liked in there, but I found it to be flawed and incoherent, and it collapsed as soon as I fixed on the following problems and issues: 1) The movie does not explain why Rey would want to turn Kylo, and risk everything to do so. Kylo tortured her, massacred billions as an accomplice to the destruction of he Hosnian system, maimed her best friend Finn and put him in a coma, and killed Han Solo. Vader did similarly to Luke, but Luke didn't consider turning him until after the reveal, and even then he did it in ROTJ because Vader could sense him and he felt that he had to go to him to spare Han and Leia and give the rebels position away. There is none of that in The Last Jedi. The reveal about Luke Abraham-and-Isaac-ing Kylo is about him and not about Rey. And even then that doesn't make any sense as to why Rey would want to believe that she should try and save Kylo and risk the entire cause and position for doing so. The only justification is off-screen shipping between Kylo and Rey. 2) The movie does not do any world-building for The Galactic Republic for us to care about the ideology of the rebellion to an extent that we buy into Finn's story arc, or Poe Dameron's story-arc. If you are going to try and address those issues you need to lay some groundwork which the movie did not do. Now admittedly the world-building of Star Wars has never been strong but neither of the movies before tried to milk any mileage out of that. In the case of Last Jedi, Poe Dameron/Holdo's story makes no sense to anyone with knowledge of military hierarchy. Holdo is a terrible commander and her actions make no sense but the movie wants her to be right and Poe to be wrong, and this is just incompetence. Likewise, Poe Dameron commits Mutiny and in real life he would have been liable for immediate court-martial and given it's war, immediate summary execution and not patted on the back by Leia and Holdo (cf, Washington and Valley Forge). The big reveal in The Last Jedi and its political message i.e. some parts of the galaxy sell weapons to both sides does not make any sense until we get some sense of the political and social background of the system after ROTJ and how The First Order came back into existence and became such a threat. The Force Awakens should admittedly have done that, but The Last Jedi is pretending and acting as if it did. And ultimately it amounts to a kind of lazy false equivalency i.e. because some people sell weapons to both, both sides are somehow to blame. In real history there were corporations which made weapons for both the Allies and the Nazis and that certainly didn't equate both of them. Anyone with any real knowledge would find these laughable solutions to made-up drama. 3) The movie's big reveal about the backstory of Luke-Kylo fails to achieve two things that would make it dramatically satisfactory to both characters and Rey's story. It needs to convince us that Kylo was worse than Vader. The Luke who believed that there was good in Vader needs to convince us that he did not find similar good in his nephew, and that there needs to be some justification on some level for what led Luke to take that step. Likewise, we need to believe that Kylo Ren had a real chance to be Ben Solo and good, that he wasn't entirely evil until Luke pushed him over for Rey to take the step she did. The movie doesn't justify any of that. We don't get any sense of who Ben Solo was before Snoke got to him, and since Snoke is treated as a joke (which okay I get because he's a terrible character) , that basically makes Kylo's fall into the dark side a big joke. If Snoke is a moron, then that means Kylo Ren was never truly turned to the dark side, he really was evil all along, and that Luke was right to try and kill him and that Rey was a bigger moron than she already comes across. 4) Rey is not a complex character, she is basically a device and extension of Luke and Kylo's story. She doesn't get to witness or be part of the final confrontation, and the final scene makes her as important as that broom kid. The Force Awakens did some smoke and mirrors around her and set up tantalizing ideas, now if The Last Jedi is saying that was all crap, that would only work if what we got instead was a more complex character. Instead she is now less complex than before. In the original films, Luke was not complex in A New Hope, but he became more complex in each film that followed, mostly because it built on the previous work rather than try and yank out what the previous films did.

@JackJacquemmoz

6 жыл бұрын

Well I came from there so I'm now stuck in a loop ! Just discovered you and I loved this video. Going to check the rest. Good luck with the riot !

@amanms1999

6 жыл бұрын

Just Write did you guys plan this together or was it just coincidence that you both uploaded similar videos the same time

@TMNTMaster

6 жыл бұрын

Just Write I think after Kylo went on dark side I agree Luke would changed BUT NOT BEFORE THAT he went to kill child of his sister and best friend becuse he felt so but he tryied to save Vader when YODA AND OBI WAN let Anakin die and Luke went to save him what he thougth was the most evil person in galaxy but goes to kill his nephew while he sleeps becuse little dark side after that it is okay that he changed but not before that

That "10 characters" bit is hilarious I was _just_ saying "But there's only -" and then I saw Snoke slowly peeking in from the corner 🤣

@rjkral

4 жыл бұрын

mara.iara haha I made the same comment! I just died😱😂

@BeeArtsSE

4 жыл бұрын

Honestly tho

@karlyg.e.m.21

3 жыл бұрын

lol I didn't notice it, I had to watch the video again. And it is, indeed, hilarious

Just Write: "The reveal that Rey's parents are nobodies is pretty brilliant." TRoS: "I'm gonna ruin this man's whole career."

@RekizFilms

4 жыл бұрын

Aru Gula rubbish, it was the most difficult thing she could have heard - telling her she’s a palpatine would just serve her a place in the story on a silver platter, instead of earning it.

@hiimchrisj

4 жыл бұрын

@@RekizFilms The plot twist that she has no bloodline making her special is a good one and one that I personally enjoyed watching this movie. But her character as a whole makes that pretty muddled and keeps me from really liking her. So she craves the validation that she's special and ultimately learns to not need that to be a hero, fine, but what is the alternative presented? If she's not powerful because of her bloodline, WHY is she so powerful in the force? She has no experience with it prior to the events of these movies and she hardly has any training up until TROS. She doesn't earn her place in the story she's just told she doesn't have one yet here she is anyways. I liked that subversion leaving the theater for TLJ and I just accepted the shift in TROS but I'd have LOVED the nobody twist had everything leading up to it shown her actually earning her strength and her place in the story prior to her realizing that she had it.

@MonteCreations

4 жыл бұрын

All TRoS did was ruin a brilliant moment and replaced it with some trite and cliche

@Midgert89

4 жыл бұрын

@Aru Gula TLJ was a piss poor example of a penultimate film. I mean good lord can you imagine what Rian Johnsson would have done to Harry Potter and the half blood prince? Or The Two Towers? Thank god this is over now.

@Aldrea333

4 жыл бұрын

@@RekizFilms Her TFA character never cared who her parents were, there is no reason why it should have been devastating.

“There’s only one business in the galaxy that gets you this rich” Rexter Dexter’s diner

@andrewwgold

4 жыл бұрын

Scrambled 59 *Dexter Jettster

@darthvader5273

4 жыл бұрын

Scrambled 59 well wadda ya know

@onen6942

4 жыл бұрын

There’s also taxing a hundred thousand worlds to get rich. What does the empire need arms dealers for? They clearly have cutting edge R&D to make stuff like the Death Star. The whole thing is a forced message that misses the mark.

@fandomewhisper

3 жыл бұрын

@@onen6942 .... Uhh empire isn't empire if they sit on their laurels. Empire means not even dreaming of giving the slaves an inch.

7 Basic Questions of Narrative Drama in 3 Parts Part 1 - Wants vs Needs (1:36) 1. What does this character want? 2. What does this character need? 3. How do those wants and needs conflict within the character? Part 2 - Conflict (6:30) 4. How do the characters' wants and needs conflict with the outside world? 5. How do they conflict with other characters? Part 3 - Change (9:23) 6. How does the character change through the those conflicts? / How does that resolution affect them? 7. What impact does that change have on everyone else?

@Abhi-xy2hm

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks

@pradeep_sekar

3 жыл бұрын

Word Salad... just make a good story

@rev1595

3 жыл бұрын

@@pradeep_sekar LOL I hope you're kidding

@markparkinson6947

3 жыл бұрын

@@pradeep_sekar If it were that easy, every movie would be great!

@theoff8411

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks

i fear that the fan overreaction and it was overreacting to the films quality will make disney clamp their corporate crip harder on the creative aspect of the next films resulting in more bland and safe sequels

@alexmcbride7563

4 жыл бұрын

valipunctro From what I’m hearing it sounds like that may have happened sadly.

@emrahkahraman3495

4 жыл бұрын

@@alexmcbride7563 And it happened, yes. I exit the cinema sadly.

@manueln.1846

4 жыл бұрын

You were right :((

@cbpoppet1288

4 жыл бұрын

"....... Tell your sister..... You were riiiiiiight!"

@cbfdxbxsb

4 жыл бұрын

Yep

The "these ten characters" joke with Snoke really got me more than I expected.

I like how so many older Star Wars videos are showing up in my feed again.

@a.bandley872

3 жыл бұрын

Same thing's happening to me again

@sothatsdevintart2562

2 жыл бұрын

@@a.bandley872 now it’s happening to me

By the way - as soon as Poe does learn about the plan he tells DJ about it - jeopardizing the whole thing and getting people killed - and people wonder why it had to be kept a secret - she didn’t want the word to get out

I think Rey’s parent’s being nobody is perfect as well, and I dread the day when JJ Abrams ret-cons that decision.

@C4DNerd

6 жыл бұрын

+Tristan McCann: I honestly have confidence that he won't. He loved The Last Jedi (he even said in an interview he loved the script so much he was jealous he wasn't directing the film) and considering that he openly admitted he never had an answer for Rey's parentage, I don't think it's something he'd want to retcon. Plus, it just opens up a big can of worms and asks more questions than answers, which is what I think a lot of people aren't realizing when they keep thinking she should've been a Kenobi or something.

@lime2779

3 жыл бұрын

@@C4DNerd lol

@caml1720

Жыл бұрын

Lol

@tristanmccann6838

Жыл бұрын

@@caml1720 Yep.

@heshamhany8470

Жыл бұрын

@@C4DNerd Har-de-har-har!

oh no i'm not brave for the comment section

@dtatar22

6 жыл бұрын

Uhm, are we reading different comment sections? Most comments here, even disagreeing ones, voice their opinion quite respectfully, especially compared to the normal flow of things on YT. (Yes, there are always idiots.)

@logansmith2703

6 жыл бұрын

dtatar22 he ain't reading the comments though.

@Cyberspine

6 жыл бұрын

Reading the comments is what you want. Going outside and having a nice day is what you need.

@thevoidlord1796

6 жыл бұрын

Wow, no appreciation for prequel quotes?

@rollrcoastrbacon2725

6 жыл бұрын

Ian it’s unholy

Wow... Kylo saying “you’re nothing... but not to me” gave me chills

@JacobSmith-ts2gq

4 жыл бұрын

one of the emotional highlights of the movie. that and fin's sacrificial suicide run, if you ignore rose "saving" him like this video does

@nicholsonfile

2 жыл бұрын

@@JacobSmith-ts2gq Yeah, I think the filmmaker wanted to show that suicide isn't heroic.

@agilemind6241

Жыл бұрын

@@nicholsonfile Partly, I also suspect the Studio insisted none of the core new cast die but narratively the pay off for Finn's arc in the movie is him becoming self-sacrificing for the rebels. But also, a the major theme of the movie is "live to fight another day" - whether this is the rebel cause in general or on the personal level for Poe, Finn and Rey.

I disagree about the film's overall quality and cohesion but I very much appreciate your efforts to explain positive qualities. That's much harder than pointing out flaws, and not enough people do it. Also, mega-respect for being fucking nuanced about it, and being able to admit that the film has positive and negative qualities, unlike most fans who have a compulsion to be all-or-nothing on every film.

@jefferyjones8399

4 жыл бұрын

Patrick H. Willems, Filmjoy, Stephan Krosecz, and others also have videos on the strengths of the movie.

@heavysystemsinc.

4 жыл бұрын

To me, this is the best movie of the franchise right next to Empire Strikes Back. Not only is it an inversion of Empire, it one ups Empire by being both a critique of the genre zombie it became, but also did so with Disney's money and is for all intents and purposes, a multimillion dollar art film. You don't see that with franchises ever, save maybe for Chris Nolan's Dark Knight, which did a lot of the same, commenting on the subject matter it embodied. That said, even if you don't buy into the metanarratives, it's a fucking good movie on it's own. I think Star Wars fans ruined it for themselves by expecting things to happen and they ruined their chances to enjoy it. Me, on the other hand, I'm not so into it that I expected much, especially after the Deja Vu that was Force Awakens. This movie made me think, 'Holy shit, someone can make a good Star Wars movie after all these bad ones? YES!" And then...Rise of Skywalker came out and I'm fucking done with this shit.

@GiraffeBlood

4 жыл бұрын

Jeremy Landry I disagree because I found the comedy awful, parts of the film utterly eye-roll worthy (hi there Leia Poppins and miss “Saving what we love”) I found the character motivations stupid and contradictory (Huldo was so stupid to keep stuff from Poe, she basically fucked everything up but the movie treats her like she’s vindicated) and honestly it changes pre-established rules in the franchise. Oh yeah, and Luke was dumb imo and nothing you can say will make me feel like he wasn’t a completely different character in this movie

@Midgert89

4 жыл бұрын

It is ultimately an ill considered film, save your subversion for the spinoffs and reboots. Don't play GRRM with the penultimate starwars film, that's just irresponsible.

@richards679

4 жыл бұрын

@@heavysystemsinc. I'm sorry dude but thats total bs. It does not parody its own genre, any parody you read from it is because its so bad you assumed it must be commentary. I agree with a lot of the broad strokes of this video, but it fails to touch on any of the details required to carry through the broader concepts that were missing in the move. For example, The begining of this video talks about Poe and his needs and wants, and in essence what its saying is true, however the plot isn't cohesive enough for any of his actions or choices to address the issues discussed. Its in no way explained how "winning the war" and "being a good leader" are mutually exclusive, how destroying the dreadnought will actually help win the war if it costs his whole fleet or how retreating at the end is in fact being a good leader. I get what it was trying to do but we are literally constantly being asked to just go with it, just ignore that blowing up the dreadnought wont really help anyone, just ignore that Holdos plan made no sense whether Poe knew about it or not, just ignore the 30 minute long casino sequence where they rescue some horses. The movie had a good premise that was executed in the single worst possible way it could have been

My problem with the movie is not that it "wasn't what I wanted". I liked it at first because it didn't do what I expected. But then I realized how the plot makes no sense and characters do incredibly stupid things for no reason other than the plot needs them to.

@waitwhat1766

6 жыл бұрын

Dr Shaym amen.

@CinematicGalaxy

6 жыл бұрын

Dr Shaym ^^^This is exactly how I feel. And then it also wasn't what I wanted lol, except with Kylo Ren. But as long as you tell a coherent, good story and keep the tone consistent, I don't care if something isn't what I wanted.

@waitwhat1766

6 жыл бұрын

Cinematic Galaxy yeah, I pretty much agree with you. I liked Kylo's arc in the movie and honestly, I didn't really have big expectations or theories regarding TLJ, so there's that. My biggest problem is how they handled Luke (in Mark Hamill's words:,, Who is this guy? '') as a somehow cheap plot devise.

@kaminskasmitchell

6 жыл бұрын

What did characters do for no reason? Most of this video explains character motivations and how the film illustrates the wants and needs driving the actions of every major character. Does it not makes sense to you that Luke was a different character after he went through 30 years of traumatic experiences? Does it not make sense to you that Holdo wasn't itching to tell Poe, the guy who got most of the fleet killed to destroy one ship, her plan to silently escape and sacrifice the freighters?

@waitwhat1766

6 жыл бұрын

Mitchell Kaminskas of course a person changes over the course of 30 years. I personally just don't see how such a strong willed character like Luke Skywalker, who for example chose suicide over joining the dark side and was generally the most hopeful and optimistic of all characters in the original trilogy, would give up his responsibilities as a jedi and his closest friends and family without a thought of ever coming back. (Well, at least until Rey and Yoda convinced him otherwise.)

Right on! I love Last Jedi and 2 points: 1) that doesn’t mean I think if you don’t like it you are wrong 2) that you don’t like it doesn’t mean I’m wrong Opinions differ. My reasons for liking it are personal, as they should be, this movie touched me and moved me and that’s all I want in a film.

My biggest issue with this movie was that I felt like none of the three plotlines were given enough space to breathe and feel organic. I understood how the conflict was supposed to play out and I didn't have any issues with the plot or the characters per se but felt like by attempting to tell three stories, they all felt rushed and shortchanged. I feel like the movie would have been more moving if it focused more on Rey and gave her story the significant bulk of the screen time. I actually like the themes in her story a lot and I wish they were given more time to be explored.

@agilemind6241

Жыл бұрын

Yes and no. I feel like there would have been a perfect amount of time for all three plotlines if they could have cut out all the pointless fan service, cameos, meaningless extended action scenes and awkward humour.

@michaelschupska2047

6 ай бұрын

@@agilemind6241 Bingo

I can understand your argument that it is a story competently told from a thematic standpoint, but I would argue with your last point that it wasn't just fan service or self indulgent. One of the huge things that ruined the movie for me was just how often the story would pull you into to its seriousness only to give you a harsh slap back to reality with a wink-down-the-camera 4th wall breaking bit of needless slapstick that ruined the tension. Our introduction to Luke is ruined for a cheap laugh, the porgs ruin several moments for cheap laughs, Chewie is used for cheap laughs, the caretakers are used for cheap laughs, Leia pulls herself back into an exploded ship mostly for fan service... what bothered me most about TLJ was how little the story seemed to care about itself and respect itself, and how often it broke the mood for the sake of the audience alone rather than the characters. That's something that TFA suffered from as well, but TLJ took it up to 11.

@brandonb.5304

6 жыл бұрын

Agree 100%. Rian Johnson destroyed tension and drama in crucial scenes in order to get a cheap laugh with one-liners or physical gags. The Throne Room scene is a perfect example; Rey's life is threatened by Snoke, the audience should be tense and fearful for her safety, yet Johnson chooses to break that tension and drama to have Rey be hit in the back of the head with a lightsaber, all for a cheap laugh. He's asking the audience to simultaneously laugh at Rey being smacked in the head but also fearful for her safety. Tonally, it's a mess. As a filmmaker, you can't ask an audience to take a story, scene, or situation seriously if you don't yourself. It's bathos run amok.

@blitzwing5439

6 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't consider the intro to Luke to be ruined for a cheap laugh. I admit, when I saw the film the first time I didn't like it because it caught me off guard. But the more I think about it, it's a great way to introduce his character. Him tossing the lightsaber encompasses everything we need to know about where that character is at that point in his life. How he has given up on the jedi way and is refusing the call to action from Rey. Everything we need to know about that character is presented to us without him uttering a single line of dialogue. Show don't tell is what film is all about.

@Olderaccount17

6 жыл бұрын

Blitzwing543 we already knew what we needed to know about Luke when we learned that he'd gone into exile after losing his nephew and jedi academy. We also heard him say "it's time for the jedi to end" of the trailer, so him throwing the lightsaber doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. It was a cheap gag which ruined what had started as a poignant, emotional moment in TFA. Not only did it fail to live up to two years of anticipation, but it absolutely ruined it.

@blitzwing5439

6 жыл бұрын

But we didn't know and more importantly Rey didn't know that Luke had chosen to forgo the way of the jedi and chosen to exile himself on the island because he felt like the jedi were doing more harm than good. That was not established in TFA. Also why are you disappointed that Luke turned out a certain way, when his character was 'supposedly' set up to be that way in episode 7?

@evelynnlefay8058

6 жыл бұрын

Agreed. It was impression that the above video gave a little too much credit to the film. Perhaps a bit too used to looking at the film from the dissection table as it were. Furthermore, it is my opinion that in terms of subversion, it was a failure; ultimately it worked very hard to backtrack and undo all of the potentially groundbreaking changes it was setting up. To me, that is the film's greatest disappointment.

Just here to say that even though I may not fully agree with the video, it doesn't affect my view on your videos

@jonathanmorgan1596

6 жыл бұрын

Random Pessimist Yeah I agree, I disagree with a fair bit of the video, but I'm not either going to dislike it or stop watching Just Write. I'd like to break one stereotype; I've been perfectly civil with all who like the film and have been both mobbed and abused for disliking the film. It's hardly heresy to love or hate the film. I also hate the narrative that apparently you aren't a true fan if you like/dislike the film from either side.

@streampunksheep

6 жыл бұрын

it does on mine, JW total complete garbageperson imho

@jonathanmorgan1596

6 жыл бұрын

Ege Ersü intellectually I don't agree with no platforming so I'm not really sure what your point is? I'm always happy to listen to the other side of an argument. I'm saddened by the hate JW is getting for voicing his opinion.

@jonathanmorgan1596

6 жыл бұрын

Ege Ersü scratch that dude, misunderstood your point ;)

@aboxofspinfusors7173

6 жыл бұрын

Ege Ersü I meant that as in overall quality

8:56 "You have no place in this story. You're nothing. But not to me." Is that meta-commentary?

@mariedeflaviis

4 жыл бұрын

Just leaving a comment because I'm eager to read some cultured/well-informed answers about this question. 😂❤

@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462

4 жыл бұрын

Sort of. The audience was upset her parents were nothing to the story. Rey however was upset she was nothing to her parents.

@Longbowman3

4 жыл бұрын

It kinda is. One of her responses even is "please don't do this", as if she's watched the original trilogy.

@Tanuvein

4 жыл бұрын

The movie does seem to take a fairly meta approach to its dialogue and structure instead of aiming for something more diagetic.

Watching all these video essays about TLJ (which I admittedly loved from day 1) just makes me even more sad about how the main characters, especially Rey, were treated in TROS.

@MeMatu

4 жыл бұрын

Same. JJ sucks

@MeMatu

4 жыл бұрын

@@novemberzed9163 take your sexism elsewhere dudebro

@novemberzed9163

4 жыл бұрын

@@MeMatu Triggered SJW?

@ciberneche

4 жыл бұрын

All the trilogy sucks, and so does you

@Kaunte

4 жыл бұрын

@Bouamrane Derrar But horror films usually have the "final girl", so that's a pretty terrible example that actually strengthens that nutjob's case.

Oh, Holdo's plan for not telling Poe the plan is because she doesn't trust how he is. Ok. . . . HOW IS THAT A GOOD REASON!?!?

@ZemplinTemplar

Жыл бұрын

That part of the entire storyline is one of the parts that just scream "this happens because the script says so, don't ask any thoughtful questions". It's the precursor to "Somehow, Palpatine returned..." "But how wo..." "Shut up ! Consume product !".

That was... a mature review with extremely compeling and very well-structured arguments. Even though I disliked the movie you made me look at it with a different perspective. Congrats!

I was surprised at how many folks missed the point of Finn's arc. In TFA, he goes from valuing just himself, to valuing someone else also. In TLJ, he goes from putting his life on his line ONLY for those he personally values, to also seeing the big picture.

@maedae396

2 жыл бұрын

People often see what they want to see, and miss everything else in the process.

@swishfish8858

2 жыл бұрын

In TRoS, he goes from having something to tell Rey, to not telling her whatever he had to tell her.

@amanpingle1497

Жыл бұрын

The problem was coz it wasn't properly executed. Mayeur, everyone can see what his arc is. Don't gaslight people into thinking otherwise. The problem was that, his arc unfolded across Canto Bight and the Infiltration. But those sections were MEANINGLESS. They end up back with the Resistance, only now they've doomed them all. It's also coz, he realises that he cares about the resistance..... After the hacker. And what the hacker said was "There is no pure good or evil sometimes". So for him to value the resistance after THAT, is crazy. He'd actually have more doubts about what to do, coz the resistance is the one that let Canto Bight exist. You completely missed the writing, and are now calling out other people for something they didn't miss. It's kinda horrendous.

@bananian

Жыл бұрын

But Finn didn't just fight for himself in TFA though. The whole point of him wanting to leave the first order in the first place was that he felt guilty for murdering innocent people. He cared of Rey, he fought against the stormtrooper. I really don't see any similarities between him and that snake dude at the casino.

@elimendoza_

Жыл бұрын

@@amanpingle1497 there is a lesson in Finn’s journey being meaningless. There is an aspect that not everything works the way you want. You start a business, you change careers, unfortunately it doesn’t always end with happy endings. But more importantly Finn decides to go with the rebels as he was torn between DJ and Rose for their commitments to ideology’s with the resistance and not joining. He sees that both may have lows but he saw what not joining does, it makes you a potential snake, as DJ ratted them out. He saw the first order, he saw not joining and he witnessed the resistance, he saw all 3. The one who had the less morally bad was the resistance, Yes they bought weapons from Canto Bite, but it showed only 1 resistance vehicle, compared to 3 (i believe) first order viechles.

10:53 - 11:07 that is exactly what the critics are telling about the problem with Rise of Skywalker

@NyJoanzy

4 жыл бұрын

Yep. Almost like they should have stayed there course instead of risk losing what they had to appease people who hate them.

@jermboy911

4 жыл бұрын

The force awekens set up so many questions and the last Jedi said fuck all those questions so the rise of Skywalker had some backtracking to do and it made the last Jedi COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. Don’t even need to watch that movie anymore lol

@UDRF

4 жыл бұрын

Nah, it's not fan service to have consistent characters. It's good writing.

@NyJoanzy

4 жыл бұрын

@@jermboy911 I just realized it's like the Dark Knight trilogy for Batman. The highly rated middle one is the one that is least relevant.

@jermboy911

4 жыл бұрын

NyJoanzy none of the Batman movies actually follow each other. The last Jedi just dismisses smoke and reys parents and answers ZERO questions, only the rise of skywalker answers questions that’s why the 2nd film is irrelevant

I actually think you had it the wrong way around. Luke offered Rey what she thought she wanted - a saviour, a father figure, external validation and a sense of belonging. It was Kylo that actually gave her what she needed - the truth and the realisation that family and such doesn't make us who we are, and that she needs to let go of certain things.

@GonzoTehGreat

4 жыл бұрын

Luke didn't offer or give her anything of those things...I mean, she wanted him to, but he didn't.

@i-deni-i5138

4 жыл бұрын

Luke offered her what she didn't want. That's why she leaves without him. Kylo gives her what she always feared. It's not necesseraly true what Kylo told her, but it's still what she feared mostly.

@francescobruno418

4 жыл бұрын

I think both kylo and Luke motivated Rey

1:56 I don’t know if that was intentional or not, but it was amazing.

@HAL-vm3wn

6 жыл бұрын

I'd say intentional

@MRCAB

6 жыл бұрын

Is that your want or desire?

9:14 “These ten characters”... I’m seeing 9, that’s 9 characters right?..... Snoke image creeps up slowly far bottom right. I DIED! 😂😂😂👍👍👍

But, those seven basic questions only apply to a stand-alone film. This was to be the middle act of a 3-act story, and we all knew that going into it. In that case, do you not also have to consider the questions deliberately created by the first act? Would it not be considered bad writing in any other circumstance to make certain things central to the mystery or character development of the story in your first act, and then ignore those mysteries or character plot-points in the rest of the story? Imagine Voldamort getting killed off without explanation in the third book, and then never mentioned again, or the ring not being THAT ring after all, once Frodo and Sam set off on their own at the end of the first book. You would rightfully feel like the author wasted your time up to that point. I find it frustrating when people pretend like this film exists in a vacuum, and then sing the praises of its bold decisions. It's decisions were to crap all over the movie that came before it. Ryan Johnson must have been hated in his improv troop. Oh, you want to set all that up to be paid off by the next guy? Nope. Not doing that.

@manflabs5209

2 жыл бұрын

Well said.

You know, as much as I liked Force Awakens, I always thought Finn's arc in that movie was super rushed. He spends the first half of the movie wanting to escape the First Order, but after he sees some planets blow up he changes his mind and decides to help. Like, wouldn't seeing planets get blown up only increase his urge to run away...? It wasn't until watching The Last Jedi that his arc in the previous movie wasn't supposed to be his entire arc, but rather HALF of one. Like many, I was initially taken aback when Finn in TLJ seemingly starts out selfish again, but then then it is revealed that he was actually doing what he was doing to help Rey....just like he was during TFA. And throughout the course of the movie, he goes from only caring about Rey to becoming a Resistance hero: something that people believed him to be when he was never actually one. That's why I feel Finn's arc in this movie is a natural progression of his character and not just a retread like many accuse it of being. He goes from only caring about himself, to caring about someone other than himself, to caring about a cause greater than himself. So in a weird way, TLJ retroactively made TFA better for me. My biggest concern is that now that his chaarcter arc is done for good this time, there isn't much left for him in Episode 9. I'm afraid that they'll do what they did with Han Solo in Return Of The Jedi and just have him be there for the sake of it. Hopefully the writers have something good up their sleeve.

@snapgab

6 жыл бұрын

"My biggest concern is that now that his chaarcter arc is done for good this time, there isn't much left for him in Episode 9. I'm afraid that they'll do what they did with Han Solo in Return Of The Jedi and just have him be there for the sake of it. Hopefully the writers have something good up their sleeve." My guess is that in episode 9, he will have a similar arc to the one that Poe had in TLJ. At the end of TLJ Finn has finally joined the Resistance and joined a cause greater than himself, but then he ends up making the same mistakes that Poe made, so his growth isn't finished at all he's still catching up to Poe, he's only now gotten to the point where Poe was at the start of the trilogy. There's the implication in TLJ that episode 9 will be about the Resistance gathering allies, and rallying the galaxy to their cause. I think that a good way to make Finn care about more than just winning the war at any cost, to make him learn a more constructive and mature way to fight for the Resistance, is for him to have to help recruit new allies. Because in order to recruit allies he'll need to argue in favor of the Resistance, which means that he's got to talk about more than just blowing up the First Order, he'll really have to explain why people should side with the Resistance instead of the First Order, which means explaining the long-term idealistic notions that they're fighting for.

@battleupsaber462

6 жыл бұрын

snapgab Ooh, I really like that idea! Hopefully they go through with something similar

@rachelbarbr496

6 жыл бұрын

Do you think if Finn actually did sacrifice himself and Rose didn’t save him, that his arc would have been more fully realised? Because I agree in that I’d hate to see Finn get sidelined just because he’s basically the goodest boy now. He’s already beaten Phasma twice, what does he have to gain other than destroy the First Order in its entirety? That would be such a step back for his character considering he’s been exposed to both sides of the war, and knows that there are real people on both sides, not just enemies.

@jonathaneby1440

6 жыл бұрын

BattleUp Saber now Finn’s in the position For episode 9 that Po was in at the beginning of 8. Finn needs to learn to save the things he loves and fight another day instead of sacrificing himself.

@lazylamont92

6 жыл бұрын

I think you missed the point of Finn’s arc in 7. He didn’t randomly switch to helping the resistance to destroy the First Order. All he wanted to do was help Rey. He specifically states that during the mission. His arc was that of love and devotion. He was running out of fear and only trying to save himself, but Rey captures him like no one else before. So when presented with a choice to run or save Rey, he chooses to save Rey. That’s where he is at the beginning of episode 8, wanting to save Rey.

Perhaps Holdo was meant to be a thematic maturity for Poe, but the execution was horrendous. Even if she doesn't trust Poe as a leader, there is no reason to hide the plan from him, which any parent/leader would know could push a rash person act anyways and often in detriment to the larger goal (which is exactly what happened). Add on top of that that her plan was stupid in the first place and failed miserably and you get a character that was useless, infuriating, and a perfect metaphor for the current state of Lucasfilm/Disney.

@deriznohappehquite

6 жыл бұрын

Just a little thing to strengthen your argument. Holdo didn't just hide the plan from Poe, she hid that there was a plan at all. If she had told him that they were going to continue following Leia's plan and that it was need to know, instead of trying to 'put Poe in his place' , he probably would have accepted it.

@JIYkp

6 жыл бұрын

Yes, and if we are benevolent and assume Holdo was trying to teach Poe a lesson, she also failed at that by getting almost the entire Rebel fleet killed with no way of defending themselves. If Poe learned anything, it was from Leia.

I feel that you left out some pretty serious opposition to the movie that's based more on how well it executes what it's trying to do rather than fans not liking the direction the movie was trying to go. For example, Holdo didn't trust Poe with the plan because he's reckless, but he starts acting recklessly because he sees them doing something hopeless and cowardly. If he has to die, he wants to at least die fighting. Had she told him the plan it would have given him hope, or at the very least he would have done something reckless in support of her plan rather than trying to stop it. This is especially true after he publicly objects and calls out how dangerous it is and she has no response whatsoever. That would have been the opportunity to point out the abandoned base and the cloaking on the transports, or even just encouraging the crew to have faith and trust her. Instead she lets Poe undermine her (the kind of thing she should have expected leaving him blind like that). Sure, he's not a commander anymore, but he's apparently still charismatic and respected. After watching responses and arguments both ways for years now, it seems like all the praise the movie gets come from three camps: people who love Star Wars no matter what, people who love artistic creators no matter what, and people who like deconstructionism no matter what. It doesn't matter how long the list of problems, inconsistencies or instances of just plain bad writing; as long as there are some redeeming qualities to point out, the movie is brilliant.

@tvp900

4 жыл бұрын

2 points on that Poe bit; first, it's the military right? No commanding officer had to explain their orders to ANY subordinate for any reason. If they give an order, it will be followed without question. And second, you forget that the ship was tracked through hyperspace, something that nobody thought possible. There was a good chance that a spy was feeding the first order info on the ship's location, and it just so happens that the person who got demoted for recklessly destroying the whole bombing fleet wants to know the plan?? I wouldn't have told him either.

@benjamindrexler9635

4 жыл бұрын

@@tvp900 The possibility of a spy isn't anywhere in the movie, even though that's a more likely possibility than tracking through hyperspace which, like you said, was "something that nobody thought possible." If they had floated the idea of a mole in the movie it would have helped things out tremendously: Poe could still have wanted to try something else and keep it secret because he suspected Holdo was the mole, and it would have made keeping the plan a secret make sense instead of just a naked attempt to demonstrate the Faith narrative that sort of appeared in that story-arc. And no, she doesn't have to explain herself to Poe, but he clearly thinks she does, and if she had explained herself then Poe wouldn't have tried to mutiny. Either Poe was badly written for having the authority he does and expecting the explanation or Holdo is badly written for not providing him one. Both of your points definitely can allow you to overlook those problems that I mentioned, but you can't get them from the movie and have to invent them on your own. Like Just Write said in another of his videos on the Last Jedi, it's a way of enjoying the movie that says more about you than about the film.

Kylo doesn't get the recognition he deserves for how interesting his character is. Also, glad to see I wasn't one of the only people to like this movie.

@PayondeAwsome

4 жыл бұрын

I know right. I think Kylo Ren is one of the best characters in Star Wars period.

@PayondeAwsome

4 жыл бұрын

@Christian Tompkins I think it's a little bit more complicated than that

@PayondeAwsome

4 жыл бұрын

@Christian Tompkins Character doesn't equal backstory. And we know his backstory, son of Han and Leia, turns to the dark side and was tempted by snoke

@Whovian1029

4 жыл бұрын

@Christian Tompkins There's still one more movie left. We didn't know anything about Vader's motivations or his reasons for turning halfway through the original trilogy.

@nathans5347

4 жыл бұрын

I liked the movie. Didn't love it. But now, having seen TROS, my respect for this movie skyrocketed after seeing the garbage that JJ put on to display.

Does Force sensitivity and wielding a lightsaber make a person a “Jedi.” I thought that was more of an ideology? Rey doesn’t grow, or face consequences for her actions other than breaking the Bespin lightsaber. The parents revelation is an info dump at best

@MrJayrenD

4 жыл бұрын

I agree with you. Rey's arc, and journey of self-discovery through the force is a major mismanagement within the sequel trilogy. The directors are ignoring lore which makes sense within the universe just so they have a strong and relatable primary protagonist.

@Foodude

4 жыл бұрын

Rey’s character arc feels paper thin and much like a checklist rather than a natural progression. She’s also still hyper competent amongst all the films.

0:51 - "We can agree that it says what it wants to say in an effective manner." I disagree with you on that point -- my chief complaint about The Last Jedi is not with the direction or central ideas of the story, but the complete incompetence with which it was executed. The complaints you cite throughout your video are common, but I hold most of them up as misdiagnoses of the problems with The Last Jedi. They are strawmen of the arguments that I, and others, make against the movie. 10:45 - "They are arguments for it being competent; for it having a rock-solid dramatic foundation" The need vs. want framework is useful, and I think you make the strongest case I have yet seen in favor of The Last Jedi having some value as a story. However, the execution is so poor that closer examination reveals major flaws in two of the three characters' transformations, and weakness in the third. The movie fights with itself and contradicts its own themes, which leaves us with a muddled emotional understanding of the characters' struggles and triumphs. More than that, The Last Jedi makes a host of seriously detrimental decisions which do not support the need vs. want conflicts you presented, and which weaken the movie and the franchise as a result. Eventually, I hope to make video essays of my own on the subject. Meanwhile, here are some examples of how The Last Jedi undermines the character triumphs you presented. 1. Admiral Holdo repeatedly refuses to even reveal that there is a plan. It's one thing to refuse to bring Poe in on the details of the plan -- as you say, she doesn't trust him -- but any competent leader in a desperate situation would assure their people that they had a plan. Life-and-death situations are absolutely not the time to be testing the faith of your people. Holdo is therefore a terrible leader. Even when Poe mutinies, Holdo says nothing. The movie makes it abundantly clear that if at any point Holdo had so much as said she had a plan -- or clarified what the plan was once he had mutinied -- Poe would have instantly been 100% on her side. That's idiot plotting (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot_plot) -- it requires Holdo to behave like an idiot for the plot to work. Holdo therefore fails as a role model for Poe. Poe becomes weirdly worshipful of Holdo the moment he understands what she's actually trying. We laugh off his defiance of direct orders and subsequent mutiny, and all is forgiven. Boys, right? Then Holdo launches her suicide attack (weirdly, exactly the same sort of thing beginning-of-the-movie Poe might do). The battle on Crait reveals that Poe defying orders is the only thing that gave them a fighting chance (remember the Destroyer he successfully blew up? That would have been able to destroy the base from orbit, per it having destroyed the previous base from orbit), and thus vindicates his earlier behavior. Poe calls off the attack on the walkers -- the only chance for survival that he knows they have left -- and thus condemns the entire Resistance to death. Only Luke and Rey save them, and he had no knowledge that they even knew where the Resistance was trapped. In other words, nothing was ever wrong with Poe. Leia and Holdo were terrible strategists and leaders, and Poe has been gaslighted into thinking his was wrong. This entire plot fails because it tries to convince us that Poe was wrong and Holdo and Leia were right, even as the movie proves the exact opposite at every turn. 2. As you say, Rose represents what Finn actually needs. But Finn is robbed of his choice to save the Resistance by Rose, who loses her mind and stops his self-sacrifice, thus condemning the entire Resistance to death. Once again, they are the last known hope for the Resitance, and Rose, of all people, should understand the value of self-sacrifice for a cause -- her sister died to save her and the Resistance, and she was responsibly stunning deserters earlier in the movie. We are given no indication that she felt her sister's sacrifice was in vain. This plot is ruined at the end because Rose behaves inconsistently and incomprehensibly, and Finn is not allowed to make meaningful decisions. His supposed mentor presents a new message: Don't fight to protect; just let your friends die. The music and cinematography clearly indicate that we're meant to think Rose is heroic and correct. This muddles Finn's journey -- He's supposed to learn to fight for the cause of the Resistance . . . but he's also not supposed to fight, because that's somehow wrong. There are also issues with Finn's arc in that it's just an extension of his previous arc -- He learns to fight for his friends in 7, and now he's learning to fight for a cause. It feels in some places like his character is sliding back on the previous arc, and it's unclear why he so quickly abandons his desire to prevent Rey from getting trapped. 3. Rey wants external validation from Kylo and Luke. Yet, she has already had external validation from Han, Chewie, Finn, BB-8, Maz, and Leia. Rey is apparently insecure about her parentage, demonstrated by two scenes with Kylo in which he speaks poorly of her parents, and then one scene in which she tries to learn about them from the Dark Side. The Kylo scenes are prime examples of telling, rather than showing, which is weak. Her taking action toward the Dark Side to learn about them functions fairly well (except in that it is totally inconsequential, both in that Rey isn't falling to the Dark Side and she learned nothing from the attempt), and explaining her attachment to Han as her searching for a father figure works decently. Her relationship with Luke is pretty consistently terrible, and she has two other reasons for seeking out Luke (bring him back and receive Jedi instruction) which muddle that explanation. Rey never returned to Jakku after escaping Starkiller Base, despite denying Maz's claim that her parents wouldn't come back. On the one hand, that seems to say she's accepted that her parents won't return. On the other hand, she never explicitly makes that determination on-screen, so who can say. Parentage aside, Rey has all the skills she ever needs -- she can Force-whatever she needs, she can pilot, repair, scavenge, climb, fight with her staff, fight with a lightsaber; she can even swim, despite growing up on a desert planet. Rey never fails in a meaningful way, and almost never needs help. The one exception is the scene with Snoke, which she nonetheless escapes from without a scratch. In other words, Rey is not portrayed as underprivileged, weak, or unliked in either of the movies. In fact, Luke complains that she's too powerful, and she has no problems with Chewie. She does start as underprivileged in The Force Awakens, but this is her arc in The Last Jedi. She proves over and over again that doesn't need anyone's help and would be fine on her own. This arc kind of works, but it could have been presented much more powerfully if we had meaningful examples of Rey failing or needing help, or being ridiculed or going unrecognized despite her contributions. Instead, it feels tacked on and weakly supported. Her internal struggle for emotional independence could have benefited from external struggles which showed us why she might feel insecure.

@Mystravian

6 жыл бұрын

Too many of these are straight falsehoods.

@johnwotek3816

6 жыл бұрын

Straight falsehoods? Is it a fallacious argument?

@DainLaguna

6 жыл бұрын

John Wotek falsehoods because there isn't any actual explanation for why he thinks the execution is bad...just that it IS.

@FrancisXLord

6 жыл бұрын

You know man, I was planning to write my own essay, as I have been doing since December 14th largely to deaf ears more concerned with some kind of social issues that are going on in America. Then I saw all the essays already here. Yep, I'm not alone in my fight against this dramatically incompetent visual nonsense they presented us with. I can rest easy and return to what I do best - writing. Rian Johnson is a terrible excuse for a writer.

@trevordavis6830

6 жыл бұрын

Dain L Did we read the same comment? He went to great detail about why it was executed bad. Mainly that themes either repeatedly contradicts itself or what's shown to the audience contradicts to whats being said.

Great stuff. :) Well done!

Adam is a phenomenal actor, I'm glad they casted him as Kylo Ren/Ben.

@Xjebin

3 жыл бұрын

@@sowmithreddy8178 um it’s actually casted

@sjoroverpirat

Жыл бұрын

Too bad they wasted his talents

I think you analysis is accurate, but doesn’t the fact that so many people didn’t connect to these arcs sort of imply that they fumbled the ball on communicating key moments in these arcs? Like, i see the setup for poe, but at which moment does he learn? I feel similarly for finn. Their decisions don’t seem to hold much weight for the audience, somehow.

@chuardo3557

6 жыл бұрын

Connor Halleck I think they don't hold weight because of the abundance of jokes and Marvel-like humour, you can't really invest in their storyarcs, their desires and ideas if they break the whole immersion just to have some cheap jokes that just makes the film not taking itself or it's ideas seriously. When Luke trew away his lightsaber I was genuinely sad and heartbroken, you can't make comedy like that in Star Wars. I get that they try do make comedy because it's what works now on other franchises, but the Universe in Star Wars should be consistent, you can't have the same characters from the original Trilogy behaving overly different from what they are, and there should be a consistent idea on what is funny and what it's not inside the Universe itself, that can't change to just what it's currently the trend, I can't take Marvel films seriously when their charachers are joking all the time, and neither can I and others get totally invested because that's not how humans work, with all those silly jokes it dehumanizes them and I can't relate to a bunch of clowns trowing one liners.

@Thr33DayStay

6 жыл бұрын

Also just throwing out there that the audience was expecting fan service call backs, Anakin's lightsaber to being the key to "existence" and a whole lot of bullshit that in universe isn't important, who is snoke? Not important (niether was sideous untill the prequals BTW) this holey relic of nerd-dom in Anakin's lightsaber? Just a tool that has been used in genocide. Where did Rey come from? Who cares? The the force is balancing itself, not every force user has to be related to some dynasty of power, it makes the force attainable and accessible rather than exclusive. The fan base didn't resonate with this film because they care too much about the wrong things, not letting a story and universe breath and develope. Just my two centa

@urulai

6 жыл бұрын

I actually think the angerish fans have divorced their expectations of storytelling for star wars into this little box, the Star Wars box and hate anything that doesn't conform to that box. Grow up, get over it, the world isn't just the skin of an apple.

@e12k4lt4

6 жыл бұрын

+Alan Barker "letting a story and universe breath and develope." Wow. so the capital of the republic gets blown up and nobody cares. Nobody. how do you defend that? except for dumb lazy storytelling. why should i get investet in a story if the writers don´t care about their universe. Dynastys of powers were also NEVER a thing, except for Anankin and Luke, as no jedi had children and kinda came from nowhere. the force balance also makes no sense, as there never was a balance of light and dark in any of the movies(prequels Light dominance, OT dark dominance). the reason fans cared so much about rey being something special was becaus she was way to strong for being completly untrained and the fans wanted answers. she comes from nothing is the laziest answer anyone could come up with.

@piotrnowak8725

6 жыл бұрын

You've proven him to be correct. That's the point. TFA created a mystery around Rey's parents and this mystery hasn't been solved yet, it's true. But it is the finale of the trilogy to give answers, part 2 is for character development, creating more conflict and difficulty for the characters to overcome in the finale. Now, TLJ did something unique - changed the meaning of the mystery. In TFA Rey was just some character that didn't know who she is and she thought - and we believed - that knowing her roots will help her become who she really is, who she is meant to be. And in TLJ she is looking for someone to guide her still, she needs it but in the end it appears that she can trust in the Force and herself and that's enough. It's not irrelevant who her parents are but it won't change who she has become now, she's not dependent on them anymore. The resolution to the mystery might still be shocking and so on but its consequences for the plot will be different. I have faith that the questions will be answered when it is time for it and not too early just to serve the fans.

Why did you say that Snoke is a main character, if he has no impact on the needs or wants of the three major characters?

@BH-pk6ng

6 жыл бұрын

he is the one bringen ray and kylo together with force magic so without him there would be no conflict between kylo and ray.

@VixxKong2

6 жыл бұрын

Ben Holz Yeah, that's what he says. But at the same time he couldn't see Kylo turning against him

@dimitrisdimitriadis4913

6 жыл бұрын

jcdf2 he never said that. He said Rey, Finn, Poe are the protagonists, each of them has 2 characters they conflict with, and everyone else is a plot device or meme. Snoke is a plot device.

This was such a good way to show the 7 Basic Questions of a Narrative being answered! I am a beginner in writing and watching your videos has been a great way to SEE how writing can be observed and executed. Also, its nice to see a different perspective on potential reasons why the audience who reads a book or watches a movie can feel excited or unsatisfied with a story. Thanks for the videos!

*Angrily shouts “Yeah, JJ Abrams” throughout the entirety of the video*

@JacktheRah

4 жыл бұрын

Heard that it was a decision by Disney. Abrams cut was originally around 3 hours long. He originally wanted to split the last movie into two. And then Disney made changes he didn't even know about. I think JJ Abrams is more competent than... well *that*.

@milesdarcey483

4 жыл бұрын

@@JacktheRah That is just a rumor though and has no real reliable source. Maybe it is because I am not a huge fan of his work already, but the newest movie had all the issues I had with JJ movies amplified to 11. I think it definitely was his idea

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

@MadameTamma

3 жыл бұрын

@@JacktheRah Even if that's true there are still major problems with the movie that clearly have JJ's personal touch to them. Mostly the fan service he adds that are winks and nods to the audience, but make no sense within the story. Like Chewie getting a medal from Leia. The fans have joked about that for years but when given much thought, it's really stupid that Leia would do that. Or Rey taking the name Skywalker instead of Organa, the audience is much more attached to Skywalker, but Leia was a beloved and trust mentor for Rey much longer. Compare that to JJ's star trek where the big twist is that Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan. Cool for the fans, does not matter to any of the characters within the scene.

@deadshot5007

3 жыл бұрын

JJ has its own style and others have other styles.

It’s not just that Holdo didn’t tell Po, it’s that she didn’t tell ANYONE her plan besides a small team of high ranking officers. She let the entirety of the rebel fleet believe that the plan was just to just fly until they were out of fuel, then die. Thats not good leadership, thats the absolute worst kind of leadership.

@Macca-95

6 жыл бұрын

The problem with that entire part of the story is that it builds up as if there is a reason why they are not saying anything. When I was first watching my mind automatically went to them believing that there was a spy on board and that was why they were not telling people. Something like that made sense to me, it gave a reason why everybody wasn't told. Unfortunately when the payoff came there was no reason whatsoever. Holdo walked into a perfectly justified mutiny because of her reasonless refusal to tell people the plan.

@KellyUnekis

3 жыл бұрын

@@Macca-95 There was a reason. To all of the crew besides Rose and Finn, hyperspace tracking is impossible. So the logical thing to think is that you have a mole on your ships.

@Macca-95

3 жыл бұрын

@@KellyUnekis The problem is that your are now writing for the writer. There was no mention of a mole in the script so it is just bad writing.

@KellyUnekis

3 жыл бұрын

@@Macca-95 Bad writing would be using exposition for every tiny detail, but I guess thinking your audience has a brain and can suss out the obvious is a bad thing in Star Wars?

@Macca-95

3 жыл бұрын

​@@KellyUnekis Except there are multiple ways to show things outside of exposition and TLJ did none of them. You are writing excuses for poor writing.

Ok, let's get this out of the way right from the beginning. The issue with Poe's arc and the reason everyone hates it is because at the end of the day Poe was 100% right in targeting and destroying that dreadnought. Without it the First Order had no way of targeting the fleet effectively when they followed it through hyperspace. I'll give you that he had no way of knowing that it was the proper course of action when he did it but as soon as it became glaringly obvious to everyone but the characters that his actions had saved the fleet he should have been exonerated. Instead they double down on a punishment that is not only irresponsible considering the size of the rebellion is now 3 ships and their respective crews and high command isn't exactly in a position to sideline respected and successful commanders like Poe but is invalidated as soon as the Big Bad shows up and it becomes clear that if they had escaped to hyperspace like Leia wanted they would all have had a lifespan shortened to the power up sequence for those super laser cannons. Punishing success because it went against your wishes is something the worst and most incompetent leaders do, not successful ones. He made the right call and is punished for it because he was the only one with the guts to make the right call when it mattered. The moral of his second arc seems for all the world to be that he should just trust the chain of command and have faith in what looks for all the world like a commander who is doing nothing and refuses to not only explain what the plan is but refuses to explain why they won't explain the plan. The moral "Don't trust yourself, trust in authority figures no matter what" is something the BAD GUYS would say last time I checked.

@JurzGarz

6 жыл бұрын

"Poe was 100% right in targeting and destroying that dreadnought." No, he wasn't. His proper course of action would been to bring that information to his commanding officer and see if they could hash out a plan together. However, Poe lets his hubris and lack of responsibility get the better of him again.

@CedarHunt

6 жыл бұрын

JurzGarz Huh? His commanding officer is Leia. The person who sent him out there and was in constant contact with him. They already had a plan: run interference until the fleet could escape by attacking the dreadnought. Leia got cold feet at the last second but that's irrelevant here. Poe made the right call in attacking and destroying that ship.

@roguetwo5903

6 жыл бұрын

Defenders of TLJ seem to ignore that little fact and never mention that dreadnought would have made that 2 hour space chase into a 2 minute one. They just want to push praise on Holdo and say she was justified in punishing Poe to fit their argument. Which is full of holes as much as the movie is.

@roguetwo5903

6 жыл бұрын

JurzGarz, what part of the dreadnought being capable of destroying all those ships in that space chase you don't get?! Let's say, Poe did listen to Leia. What happens next? They jump to light speed and the First Order with that dreadnought follows them and knocks them out one by one. Admit it, the Last Jedi is a mess of a movie.

@Dacrath

4 жыл бұрын

To me the issue is more that Poe goes from super trusted member of the resistance in TFA. Tasked with finding Luke and keeping the map a secret. To movie two, a "hot headed never to be trusted" person. The last Jedi is a decent movie if it was a one off in a different universe. But it isn't. There are several other movies in this setting giving it certain conventions it should follow. Like the hyperspace as a weapon thing. In a vacuum the move was awesome, the effects and the silence were masterful. But in the greater story it makes the deathstar stupid. Grab a ship, set autopilot, watch the explosion. Empire is dumb for making it, rebels are dumb for throwing fleers to their room fighting it conventionally. It is the same with Luke. The guy who still saw good in Darth fricken Vader. He is killing his nephew because he sensed there might be a bit of darkness? Again in a vacuum as a stand alone character that's just fine. As Luke, well, that isn't my childhood hero and isn't the person from return of the Jedi at all. If you want to crap on my childhood I certainly can't stop you, but don't expect me to cheer either.

What a great film

@moradkhamlichi9476

Ай бұрын

Yeah ... if only more fans could agree on this

really brilliant, well done.

"These 10 characters encompass the entirety of the moral framework...." Wait, there are only 9? In crawls Snoke from the bottom left. I can't laugh any harder. Sage is a genius for both is critical analysis and subtle humor.

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, genius just like this video... kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

Ok I love your videos but like WHO DOES THE THuMBNAILS? They always look so nice!!

@epm1012

6 жыл бұрын

Ana The Artist Probably him. It’s a simple Photoshop filter.

@jonasmesser4566

6 жыл бұрын

Ana The Artist there even is an app called "Prisma" that can create such effects pretty well

@rogerjuniorchabot

6 жыл бұрын

yes. Called Oil painting, if I remember?

So,...being a hotshot impulsive character is bad for Poe but good for Rose. Poe was given a tongue lashing for endangering lives, meanwhile Rose set a stampede of animals throughout a town. Trying to save your friend over the "greater good" is bad for Finn but good for Rose. Self sacrifice is good for Vice Admiral Holdo but Finn needs someone to intervene & teach him a lesson. This movie has a message to put certain characters in their place. I'm just saying.

At 6:49, that is such a cool point that never occurred to me. It's like you just showed me how an amazing magic trick was preformed...except unlike a magic trick reveal, it's even more amazing now! That truly gives me a new perspective and makes me appreciate this story more.

I respect Rian Johnson for his ballsiness, if nothing else. He tried to make a Rian Johnson film within the Star Wars framework, but it’s ultimately his downfall here. He was clearly driven by personal ego and not a sense of serving something greater than himself. As a result, we ended up with a movie that’s ambitious but ultimately misguided. Contrary to how it is being spun, it’s not a misunderstood masterpiece- it’s just aggressively mediocre. It fixates so much on subversion and being unpredictable that it robs itself of any real narrative weight. It’s a film built on incessant fake-outs, nihilism, moral ambiguity, heavy-handed sociopolitical ideologies and iconoclasm- which leaves it feeling utterly joyless. Contrast this with classic Star Wars, which is about escapist romanticism and time-tested “Hero’s Journey” archetypes. The themes of Star Wars don’t need to be modernized for the series to endure. It already has endured and will continue to endure. The originals will, anyway. The sequel trilogy will be but a pop culture footnote in 20 years.

@hyruleorchestra4339

6 жыл бұрын

"“Hero’s Journey” archetypes. The themes of Star Wars don’t need to be modernized for the series to endure." Really? Do we want this over and over again for the next decades? Even though Johnsons plan didn't completely work out for me I still applaud his ambitions. Yeah of course we can watch those linear from zero to hero stories forever and get some joy out of them. But I'm also interested in what happens when people start messing around with those stable and predictable concepts. Sure most of the times they will fuck it up horribly but some happy accidents are what might lead to something new and iconic someday. Yeah those old movies were awesome but SW is no fucking sanctuary and art should always be open to change and innovation. Let us not be so closed-minded on what a thing should and should't be. Didn't fully work out this time for the film guys- it's fine just try again.

@FDLink

6 жыл бұрын

CloudyMindMusic “The Hero’s Journey” is a very loose framework for a story. It is possible to innovate while hitting the important beats. It’s made for some of the best books and films of all time, so yes, we do want that (in some form) over and over again for decades. Again, “time-tested.” It works. It resonates. I wouldn’t have minded them getting experimental af with the spin-off/anthology films, but it was imperative that they get the mainline sequels right. They didn’t, and now the fanbase is fiercely divided and most of the goodwill and enthusiasm about the future of the series has been squandered.

@hyruleorchestra4339

6 жыл бұрын

" “The Hero’s Journey” is a very loose framework for a story" Well it's not that loose. When you move a little away from western "time-tested" storytelling you will see that there are a lot more storytelling concepts in this world that can resonate with peoples dreams and wishes in completely different and interesting ways. Sticking to one framework still seems like a huge limitation to me. Even if you can be innovative within that. And about this: “but it was imperative that they get the mainline sequels right." These are movies. It's a fucking luxury for everyone of us to be able to watch these incredibly expensive pieces of art. So many talented people put their heart and soul in every detail over countless of days. None of the consumers is in the position to have these kind of expectations and maybe we all should be a little more humble. Even our money shouldn't give us that right to decide how the things have to be. This channel here took his time to think deeper in order to get something out of his experience. This is how you appreciate pieces of art. By talking, by differentiating, by staying constructive and positive. The majority of the people has like two or three words of evaluation ("it was ok"; "it sucked") and doesn't give a shit about all the ideas and all the efford that are necessary for a movie to happen. This fiercely divided fanbase seems to give way to little freedom and space for the writers to be truly creative, to mess around, to fuck up, to get to something new. Every piece of art is an experiment and should never have a mission of "getting something right". If we pay in the theaters just for something that we already expect to see (even if that is about a loose framework or emotional beats that need to be hit) we limit ourselves for no reason. I'm sorry for the long text but your sentence represents one of the major flaws in todays cultural development and I'm really struggling with that.

You make good points for admiring a movie I dislike, but the reasons I dislike the film are still there in spite of the elements that work. For example, Poe wants to take out the Dreadnaught, but in the story context, we don't know what that is or why it's important or how much of a blow it will cause the First Order. We've never even seen or heard of one before. We as an audience aren't able to gauge the impact of this move. How many Dreadnaughts are there? Two? Six? A hundred and thirteen? We're simply told to accept what we're told and play along, and that is a narrative shortcut. The film takes a lot of shortcuts for important elements, yet builds up less important points. MauLer's review explained this well, especially the part about how we never get to see Luke grieve over Han's death and share in the emotion of two characters we've been invested in for a long time, yet we get to see Rose cry over her sister - two characters we've never seen before. The drama of the film is just plain sloppy. Everything feels forced and unearned. Even the character arcs. Finn has essentially the same in this movie as the last one, regressing in his sleep for reasons unexplained. I love this channel, but I don't believe this is the type of film worthy of defending. There's a lot more to be gleaned by explaining the parts that don't work, and how to fix them. I would love to see that video (or videos) in the near future.

@cthulhurealness

6 жыл бұрын

But we do know about the dreadnaught- he said it was a 'fleet killer'. In the context of a fast paced action scene, that's all we need to know. Besides, the focus isn't on the dreadnaught itself; the focus is on Poe being reckless, and getting half the resistance fleet killed in effort to bring it down, creating a hollow victory. The focus is on his arc, learning, as Leia so perfectly spells out to the audience, that 'you can't just jump into a cockpit and blow something up all the time'. The reason why we don't know these details isn't because of bad writing, its because it does not MATTER because that's not what the focus is on. The focus is on the characters, on the arc. Not on the logistics of First Order fleet construction.

@mpaulson4285

6 жыл бұрын

I can agree with you that they shouldn't have deleted the scene of Luke crying but come on, do you really need an explanation of a Dreadnaught? Poe said it! "Fleet killer". Do you expect the Rebels to have a civil debate on the middle of the fight talking about the history of Dreadnaughts in the SW Universe? Since you are complaining about that, then SW is a piece of crap because in ANH they don't give us a detailed explanation on the Death Star (even though the characters do say that it's a planet killer).

@racewiththefalcons1

6 жыл бұрын

The logistics still have to make sense, and the entire fleet is right there in front of the Dreadnaught. That seems like the perfect time to get away and not risk needless death. Anyway, how the First Order is even in control after having their planetary superweapon destroyed with a good bulk of their followers on it at the time is a mystery that also contradicts what we've already been told. Even the basic setup is problematic. You *CANNOT* sacrifice logistics and context for a character arc or a forced emotional beat. It has to be earned, not contrived.

@mpaulson4285

6 жыл бұрын

racewiththefalcons1 A) "That seems like the perfect time to get away". That is the whole point of Poe's arc. You are complaining about a character's flaws, in this case, Poe's. Poe is the soldier that acts first and thinks second. He is a good representation of the classical Star Wars protagonist: be reckless and you'll do good. Only this time, being reckless doesn't pay off therefore Poe has to go on a different journey (unlike Han or Luke) to realize than being the "hero" is not about blowing things up. If on the first scene of the film, Poe flies away with the rest of the Rebels there wouldn't be no story. 2) "How the First Order is even in control after having their planetary superweapon destroyed" You forget one simple thing: that superweapon destroyed several planets, and these planets are the head of the Republic, therefore making Kylo and Snoke be in control (even if they lost a big bunch of people). Their leader, Snoke, is alive, and of course the rest of the fleet is too. Starkiller Base wasn't the only thing the First Order had. On the other hand, the leader of the good guys (the Republic) is destroyed, along with 5 or 6 of the planets that had most of the control. The rest of the galaxy doesn't know about the destruction of Starkiller Base and the Jedi are nowhere to be seen. So, fear and lack of leadership from the good guys gives the First Order the chance to be in control, almost by default.

@lordchniak

6 жыл бұрын

The dreadnaught description is exactly why i don t see the reclessness. it is a "fleet killer", for me it means it will destroy several fleets without a scratch, so trading one of these against only one small fleet seems like a pretty good deal. I didn't like the movie because of the execution i guess, too many plotes hole or shortcuts. I have mainly no pb with the story or what happen to the characters, there is some good idees, but the execution kinda kills them.

Man great video, brought up some new arguments that I havent seen yet

The "your parents were nobodies" monologue from Kylo Ren was probably the most brilliant thing Rian Johnson did in the whole movie because it creates two possible outcomes that are equally interesting for the movies going forward. If Kylo Ren is telling the truth, then we have an instance where someone who isn't part of some great hereditary line must step up to the plate, as well as a fine counterpoint to Kylo's hereditary evil. If Kylo Ren is lying, then this creates a source of possibly interesting drama, as well as a great point of drama for the second act of the next movie. From a metanarrative level it also interacts with other aspects of the movie to critique and point out the stupidity of J. J. Abrams' damnable "mystery box."

I admire your courage for posting this, though it'll probably get a lot of dislikes anyways

@jaysway9251

6 жыл бұрын

Rumirez and rightly so. TLJ wasn’t great. It was barely good.

@turntsnaco824

6 жыл бұрын

Jay Sway This video isn't The Last Jedi, though, and he even states that he's not arguing that it was a great film, even though he liked it. Blindly disliking this video just because you didn't like the movie being discussed is childish and naive.

@jaysway9251

6 жыл бұрын

Turnt SNACO what are you talking about? Who said anything about “blindly disliking” this video? I disliked this video because I don’t agree with what he states in his video.

@guilima3097

6 жыл бұрын

Nah. Lessons from the screenplay's video about TLJ that just came out as well was more negative than this one and got waaay more dislikes.

@thefancrafter7488

6 жыл бұрын

Because he is defending what the film tries to do when the main flaws people complain about relate to how the film gets there

N-Nani?

Loved it. R2D2 playing Leia's message for Luke is among the best moments in the franchise.

@williamsmith5049

4 жыл бұрын

Sounds like a nostalgia call back that supposedly this movie didn't have?

@directorforplastic7929

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamsmith5049 ???

@Yoda-wf6bu

Жыл бұрын

@@williamsmith5049 The movie didn't have cheap nostalgia callsbacks that serves nothing to the story. This scene has a huge effect on Luke's character and it made him train Rey. It also shows how he has become the Obi-wan of the story and that Leia needs him just like she needed Obi-wan. Luke is Leia's and the resistance's only hope.

@BH-pk6ng

6 ай бұрын

@@Yoda-wf6bu no it is pandering. This is at least what the video said you are commenting under.

@jspthesecond0723

6 ай бұрын

@@Yoda-wf6bu But this moment isn't earned especially if you consider that there was no explanation to Luke being where we see him in TLJ compared to where he was at the end of RotJ, no character development. He is just a different character altogether.

You can't really argue for Rose's character, even if she has a reason to exist such as conflict. This video is effectively an analysis that the film uses a simple screenwriting concept, and I could tell you're going somewhere with this, but that doesn't mean it was executed well. I'd actually hardly call this film competent, I daresay that it trips itself up by writing itself into a corner to fulfil these 7 questions.

You can't pretend to ignore the fact, that these are a serialized movies, which follow a narrative arc from: 1-3, 4-6, & 7-9. Global: 1-9, so you can recolect from the trash can all film virtues of just this particular chapter, as much as you want. But you can't make a valid compelling narrative argument for this chapter as a valid piece of the entire saga, which is the very core of the actual world issue.

@timy9197

6 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Most defenses of this movie can never argue that and almost completely ignore it. Even when people claim it's what Star Wars needed. Conceptually, it's a terrible addition.

@kendrick5501

3 жыл бұрын

This is pretty much the best way u can describe the whole sequel trilogy: As films themselves, they're good As STAR WARS films, however, they're not If they weren't a part of the Star Wars universe, if they weren't a part of the entire Skywalker Saga, the sequel trilogy, especially The Last Jedi, would have better reception. The Skywalker Saga isn't just art, it's also a story about hope and unity that everyone can learn and be inspired from. In actuality, the Skywalker Saga should've ended with Episode 6 while the entire sequel trilogy would lay the foundation for a new saga, after all, they wanted to make more Star Wars films for new generations, and you don't necessarily need to bring back the characters from the previous trilogies, their stories have already ended in Episode 6 and deserve the happy ending they worked hard and struggled for, finally having brought peace to the galaxy. Episode 7 to 9 should've been many years to the point where whatever conflict has risen to plague the galaxy again will have nothing to do with what has happened from Episodes 1 to 6.

While I find this to be a good analysis, there are several problems. First of all with Poe's arc. If he hadn't taken out the Dreadnought, there wouldn't have been a movie. The Dreadnoughts guns would have been able to blow up the Rebel ships meaning that the chase wouldn't have been possible. So while the Rebels suffered casualties, the trade of their bombers and several pilots for the Dreadnought and it's entire crew is both worth it and necessary. Secondly, while one can argue with Holdo not telling Poe the plan, to begin with, though I personally find it stupid, one cannot make the same argument when he is performing a mutiny. And let's remember, that had not Luke just shown up, pulling back from that suicide run on Crait would have doomed the Rebellion. Probably the only chance the First Order had of breaching that door was that canon, so giving up and letting it fire would have ended in more people dying that sacrificing a few pilots. I don't have a problem with Fin's arc in the movie. The big problem is that it's pointless. The entire subplot with going to Canto Bight, getting a code breaker and sneaking on to the First Orders ship didn't amount to anything in the grand scheme of things. A movie has a finite amount of time and TLJ already feels bloated. Skip Canto Bight and cut down on the sneaking mission would make the movie feel a lot better. Ray has a number of problems but they aren't with how this movie is built, they are with how her character is built, starting in TFA. While I think that she is a Mary Sue, I'm going to put that aside. I agree with you that it isn't a problem with the fact that Ray's parents are nobodies, the problem I have with the seen is that it just tells us that they were nobodies, it doesn't show us. Show, don't tell. Another thing in the movie is that she seems to go back and forth. One minute, she thinks Kylo is unredeemable, and the next she thinks she can save him from himself. And while the movie has arcs for the character you have to ask if the main story works, and it simply doesn't. The movie can only work because the First Order consists of nothing of idiots. To start with, why fire of the rebel base when you can fire on the Rebel ships in orbit. The base isn't going to move, while the ships can leave. And why didn't they have screening Ties already deployed when they came into the system. If they are a splinter of the Empire, the should know that the resistance favours smaller strike crafts. And why didn't they just open fire on Poe when he stopped in front of them. They were there to wipe them out. And during the chase, why not have a detachment of Star Destroyers jump ahead of the Rebels and intercept them. And the Holdo manoeuvre causes a problem for every single Star Wars movie already out and forever. If that can be done, why hasn't it ever been done before? And now you have to expect that it will be done in every space battle including larger ships.

@Doutsoldome

6 жыл бұрын

Good ponts.

@j4yb0b

6 жыл бұрын

In the grand scheme of things the Canto Bite plot doesn't really go anywhere. The plan fails. But, had you considered that you could say exactly the same thing about the asteroid sequence in Empire? They put a bunch of screen time into Han and Leia's attempt to avoid being captured by the Empire which ultimately also fails. So what's the point? In both cases the point is character based. In Empire it's to put Han and Leia together to further their relationship. In TLJ it's to develop Finn's character (as discussed in this video) and relationship with Rose.

@j4yb0b

6 жыл бұрын

Also, "show don't tell" is a rule of thumb, it's not etched in a stone tablet somewhere. In this instance it's actually really important that it is Kylo telling her this information. It tells us a lot about Kylo, the way he tells her she's worthless. The eye-rolling exposition dump with the hyperspace tracking and Maz is, for me, the scene which really could have used a bit more show and a bit less tell.

@shawnoates4410

5 жыл бұрын

Re: your comment about the Dreadnought firing on the base. It's a simple storytelling device, saying, "Hey, this is what this big gun will do to our heroes if they don't step on it." It sort of functions like the Death Star's attack on Alderaan, it shows you what this thing that our heroes are up against is capable of. Set up and pay-off.

@JacobSmith-ts2gq

4 жыл бұрын

​@@j4yb0b, I would argue that it tries to develop fin's character but in the grand scheme of things fails, reason being everything works out in the end whether or not he was there doing anything. remove him from the story and you have the exact same movie. to give his screen time relevance he would have needed to have done something to affect the story, and I believe that the perfect thing would have been sacrificing himself to protect the resistance at the cannon. even if it was in vain. completing his character arc from a coward fearing for his life, to a hero that gave is life for something greater than himself. which would have been the perfect send-off storywise, if they try to pull it again it wouldn't have the same weight as it would have here.

The brilliance you outline in the film is duly noted. However, there are established space mechanics and historical character arcs that are simultaneously leveled in RJ's gamble with the franchise that I (and many) believe effectively broke Star Wars.

At the beginning of empire, Han isn't a willing warrior for the rebels, he was about to leave until he had to go find Luke, because Leia wouldn't give him the business. Lol

Man, I deeply appreciate you for this. Thanks

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

You will appreciate this as well... kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

@Doctor_Straing_Strange

4 жыл бұрын

thomas stull you are the best. Are you doing this with all the comments in this awful video? I'd like to join you in your crusade my friend

Interesting. It wasn't your intention, but you just provided a fantastic case study on the limitations of story structure. Even though all the necessary elements are in place for a dynamic character arc, I still find the movie incompetent in the jawdroppingly inelegant manner used to force those elements. This cannot be ignored in judging the movie's competence. In other words, Rian Johnson checked all the narrative boxes, but I still argue that he failed in execution. The "what the audience needs" point in the conclusion of your video isn't entirely right. The audience doesn't want "exact same Star Wars" nor do they want "completely different Star Wars". This is a strawman. They want a beautiful, elegant synthesis between the two extremes that provides the "same-but-different and ultimately awesome" feel that - say - "Batman Begins" or the "Dark Knight" provided. This isn't easy. Rian Johnson opted for completely different trope-breaking movie that - I argue - wasn't well-executed enough to justify such a demolition. E.g. Rey freely gaining all Force powers without difficulty isn't good writing under most circumstances. Unearned awesome is cheating and the audience feels it. Regardless, thank you for such an interesting case study. You've proven you can check the boxes and still fail to write a compelling story.

@hermit8244

6 жыл бұрын

Have to call you out on the Rey point. Agree she's a Mary Sue but wasn't Rian's fault. Everything he showed Rey can do is something JJ said she can do. Force pull, basic but not flashy lightsaber combat, and her flying skills are all something we found out in TFA. JJ gave her those powers and Rian had to give us an explanation. Honestly, the force balancing out Kylo and Rey does seem like the only way to explain her kicking his ass in TFA.

@josephgroves3176

6 жыл бұрын

Hermit. She has about the same amount of training Luke had...

@OrtegaSeason

6 жыл бұрын

James Booth@ I totally agree. Story structure isn't the only thing that can hinder a movie. The prequels have fairly decent story structure. What this video doesn't address is the issue of immersion. I believe the story structure of TLJ is fine, but there's just too many things in the film that broke immersion for a lot of people (and too frequently as well), whether it's Canto Bite, or Leia flying, or Rose saving Finn.

@zeronova1484

6 жыл бұрын

Joseph Groves, Wtf are you talking about? Luke had *years* to finish his training.

@Dougy359

6 жыл бұрын

Hermit I would say the problem is JJ implied there was a reason she could do that(he loved mystery) and Rian failed to deliver on the mystery. Yes there is still another movie, but Rian didn't answer any of the mysteries set up by Abram. That's poor form in story writing. Until an answer is given, or not given, she is still a Mary Sue in my eyes.

Ha, that last line. Bold of you to assume the audience went through a character arc. (Love the analysis btw)

what a Great video essay about the structure of this screenplay!

Honestly will watch the movie again with open eyes thanks to this video. I actually really liked The Last Jedi. Unfortunatly everyones hate and disgust for the movie has tainted the rewatching experience. Im gonna give it another go. Thanks Just Write.

@ClintLoweTube

6 жыл бұрын

Dragon Ball Black Luke Skywalker comeback was biggest letdown in movie history for me. He just sooked, then killed himself. I might do one of my vids on it😭

@jodhod1498

6 жыл бұрын

Dragon Ball Black Stay positive man. Keep the hope up.

@miep3934

6 жыл бұрын

jod hod Why? The most hopeful character in fiction lost hope and I am more of a cinic. Why should I have hope?

@qwellen7521

6 жыл бұрын

I wasn't in a great place emotionally when this movie released, but like you, it was the raw. inhumane backlash that to the movie that broke me. The Last Jedi didn't ruin star wars for me, it was half the fan base who couldn't act civil about it.

@qpopuiuzmnmb

6 жыл бұрын

+Shin Mufasa Talk about a textbook example of a comment that amply demonstrated ignorance of the points being made by the video they are commenting on...especially considering how every supposed criticism leveled here are addressed and countered in the video. And thus renders the self-proclaimed 'legitimate criticisms' as illegitimate. Legitimate criticisms and points in a arguments means acknowledging your opponent's most recent contribution to the debate and engaging them from that level: NOT ignoring every point being made and just repeating your old memos like a broken record.

Just because a movie fits into the structure of screenwriting books doesn’t make it a good movie. Good foundation, poor execution. That said. Just Write > LFTS. One still can _learn_ from what TLJ does.

@OrtegaSeason

6 жыл бұрын

Love Fanalysis, and I totally agree. Attack of the Clones arguably has pretty decent story structure. That doesn't stop the film being dragged down by crappy dialogue and unnatural romance.

@guardianknight5417

6 жыл бұрын

Antoine Bandele wow didnt know you watched his videos

@spenser9908

5 жыл бұрын

This film has terrible structure and writing. It by no means "fits in the structure of screenwriting books". It is objectively terrible.

@yeng7803

4 жыл бұрын

Shit somebody already write this comment! Demn i late lol

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

No it's a "masterpiece".... kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

The main problem, at least in terms of writing, is that The Last Jedi (and the new movies in general) aren't the story of one character. This isn't Rey's story or Poe's or Finn's. Nor is it Kylo's. The movie tries to tell the story and answer the questions for all of them. The reason Empire is regarded as a great movie was that, though you had fun side characters in Han, Leia, Chewie, etc, they were just that: side characters. The story was Luke's, just as Return of the Jedi is more Anakin's story; hence the focus on Vader's conflict in choosing to sacrifice himself and his wants to meet the needs of the galaxy. Realistically, there just isn't enough time to adequately address every character, which is why several of the arcs feel hollow. Poe gets a small sequence to demonstrate his change, Rey's change feels unearned, Luke's change feels like it comes out of left-field (though I actually appreciate that he believes the legacy of the Jedi is failure...because it is). Kylo appears like a one-dimensional bad guy; however, I think some of the issue is direction here. Kylo and Rey confronting Snoke is a mirror of Luke/Vader in ROTJ, but TLJ plays the choice of what would happen if Vader would have just killed the Emperor without having to set aside desire. What the movie fails to do is adequately demonstrate Kylo's motivation: Maybe finishing what Vader started was just the desire to rule the galaxy? That's kinda shallow though, and not really a motivation....like, why did Vader want to rule the galaxy? I don't know. Overall, the movie isn't horrible, but it's not great either. My only real beefs (beeves?) with the movie are: 1. Rey's growth still feels unearned and Kylo comes across as a whiny child 2. It contradicts its message several times: Don't risk your life in crazy suicidal missions, but then has Holdo do that, then bucks it again when Finn tries to do the same. 3. Leia Poppins. I get it, the writer and director is/are not Star Wars nerds. However, their lack of understanding what the force is, is manifest in this scene. The force is complex and layered. It's not magic. They address this correctly in Luke's training of Rey. Likewise, Leia is, and always has been, force empathic. She feels it and senses it, but it never manifests in her through actual force power. This is important because Luke is the opposite. Luke is all power, but doesn't feel the force (Yoda says this to him again and again in Empire).

This movie still accomplished many things that many star wars movies failed to do so (Rise of Skywalker), even if you didn't like the movie. I'm glad that after two years after its released I find the best of the Sequel trilogy, even though I didn't like it at its released. Opinions can change and that's ok. Thank you to this video and your channel for making me learn more about movies! Awesome job!

@viniciuscarvalho3015

4 жыл бұрын

@OWLofATHENS Thank you, we must have faith in the franchise's future as so in the fandom (even if it's hard these days)! I totally agree with you about all these fake fans that prefer to spill hateful comments or bad joke in social medias instead of debating politely and analyzing the movie from another perspective. Some people are just immature and that's really sad, but we still got hope, like this video and fans like ourselves. But what have you thought about the Rise of Skywalker that made you change you opinion?

@j.m.w.5064

4 жыл бұрын

No. It's just a bad movie. I highly respect this channel's content but people are so apologetic when desperately searching for some gems in the rubble. Just compare it to other films. It's not a good film.

@AndyKunkel

4 жыл бұрын

@@j.m.w.5064 why is it bad?

@j.m.w.5064

4 жыл бұрын

@@AndyKunkel The Bad: character motivation and reaction, character interaction, dialogue, plot, sub-plots, pacing, editing, set-ups and pay-offs, internal continuity, seriality, lore, visual ripp-offs. Bad. After thought: That this review is able to point out very fine details in the script (rightly so) doesn't mean those were well implemented. On the contrary - what this channel reveals about the structure drives tears to my eyes when I see the bland and ham-fisted result. (Good was: looks and actors.)

@AndyKunkel

4 жыл бұрын

@@j.m.w.5064 The one issue I have with TLJ is the pacing and the poorly executed canto bight sequence. But the Rey and Kylo plotline was nearly perfect. Finn and Rose could have been better. Ill give you that.

>These are stories for 12 year old boys >Here’s a video essay explaining how the story is competent when evaluated by grad school Lit students. Pick one, Lucasfilm.

Well I bet people in the comment section are going to be fair and appropriate.

@trogdoar149

6 жыл бұрын

Some of us are trying to be lol

@miep3934

6 жыл бұрын

I tried and tried to be critical at the same time and my spite goes to the movie exclusively

@alexosborne1792

6 жыл бұрын

Giovanni Moise Well if you get to deicde what's 'fair and appropriate', probably not.

@SmartAlec1

6 жыл бұрын

DarthSiones It's tough to not always phrase opinions as fact by mistake. I think It's only going too far when you intentionally say "it's a fact" or "you're wrong" or "objective."

@alexosborne1792

6 жыл бұрын

There objective things you can say about a movie.

Sometimes I feel alone on the internet when I say I liked TLJ as both a movie and a Star Wars movie.

@Epiousios18

4 жыл бұрын

You're not alone.

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

Yes watch this... kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

@TheGamingPolitician

2 жыл бұрын

You’re not alone

@intergalactic92

2 жыл бұрын

One of us. One of us.

@alexheisenberg8709

2 жыл бұрын

There are lots of us. Takes time, but we can find each other. It's nice to meet you, my fellow TLJ fan

The moment Luke becomes a Jedi, in Return of the Jedi, is where he stands over his father, and throws his lightsaber away. Fake fans love to forget that. Being a Jedi isn't about being a space samurai, it's about rising above that.

@AardvarkDK

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that was a great comedic moment.

@kloggmonkey

4 жыл бұрын

exactly! luke didn't win by beating his dad in a fight, but by refusing to fight.

@nopatiencejoe6376

4 жыл бұрын

Don't know how isolating yourself and letting all your friends and family be killed is considered "to rise above".

@liampezzano

4 жыл бұрын

@@nopatiencejoe6376 The Last Jedi makes it explicit that Luke rejected the Jedi and failed as a hero when he isolated himself. He is redeemed when he sacrificed himself to buy the Resistance an escape. The movie is chiding Luke for running away after he failed Ben, a decision JJ Abrams made cannon in TFA.

@deusexmachina101

4 жыл бұрын

@@kloggmonkey no, he refused to kill an unarmed (HA) man, something Mace Windu did not. that is the Jedi way.

I have to disagree with how well they got across Poe's arc, at least at the beginning. If they hadn't taken out the dreadnought, the massive cannon on it would have obliterated them, maybe Poe was a bit reckless, but he still saved more people than would have died if he'd followed orders.

This is extremely interesting to watch, and I definitely think you got me thinking and reevaluating my previous notions on The Last Jedi. I can't thank you enough for these well-thought and articulated videos; they are beyond engrossing to me.

@WapitalismandWreedom

3 жыл бұрын

Let me bring you back to the light my friend. Ask yourself, what lesson did Poe truly learn? Because the entire resistance was about to die, so retreating is essentially a death sentence. The "lesson" Poe learned was I can't lead my men to death so I'm gonna retreat and have them die anyway. The end of his arc makes no sense. Similarly, Finn should have died. Why didn't he? It made no sense for him to not die there. His arc was perfect, complete. And then Rose comes in and smashes it to pieces for the sake of subverting expectations. Holdo not telling Poe the plan is fine. Holdo not telling Poe that there is ANY sort of plan is inexcusable. If you have a loose cannon on your team, you should probably calm him down, not freeze him out. All she had to say was, we have a plan, it's need to know, you don't. Poe is one of their highest ranking members and people look up to him. You can't just sideline him during a crisis and expect that to sit well with your crew. Rey had an interesting arc but I don't think the whole parents were nobody is groundbreaking writing. It's not even unique to star wars. I did enjoy Rey and Kylo more than anything else and RJ should've taken all the time spent on Canto Bite and put it into this plot. There's also no villain in the story anymore now that Snoke is gone. Kylo is obviously gonna return to the light and Hux was neutered as a villain for laughs.

@cryaldood3656

3 жыл бұрын

@@WapitalismandWreedom .

@XDarkBrotherhoodHD

3 жыл бұрын

@@WapitalismandWreedom .

@Jamil33

3 жыл бұрын

@@WapitalismandWreedom .

@krajildo979

3 жыл бұрын

@@WapitalismandWreedom .

Yes we understand Holdo doesn't tell Finn the plan because he's reckless, but that's exactly why she *should* tell him: it's pretty obvious the reckless, impulsive guy is not likely to sit around doing nothing just because you told him what a naughty boy he can be. "Prove that he really is self-sacrificing" Psssssyke here's Rose to stop that sacrifice, wasting his entire ark and allowing the battering ram to breach the gate and for all they know kill all the people he was supposed to fight for. "Kylo's descent into villainy" Which one? Kylo is a revolving door of a character. "Allowing [Rei] to save the remaining rebels" Yes her nascent superpowers are part of the problem. Your argument that the story is competently told from the perspective that it answers some arbitrary questions to complete a type of character ark holds some water, though I think at the very least the one for Finn is completely kneecapped in that same movie. But then there's the issue of the "fan service." You dismissively praise the movie for resisting the urge for fan service, but this movie went in the complete opposite direction to spit on the IP and fans alike. They turned Luke from a man that would risk everything to redeem his father from the darkness into a bitter, impulsive, callous old bat that would attempt to murder a child in their sleep because the child might have naughty thoughts. That child being no less than his nephew, the son of his sister and best friend. Sorry but I call bullshit.

@rev1595

3 жыл бұрын

Poe is the reason the First Order found out critical details of Holdo's plan. He broadcast it over the channel to Finn and Rose, not realizing DJ was listening. That was exactly what Holdo was trying to avoid.

@Ifatov

3 жыл бұрын

@@rev1595 Except that's not what's happening. Poe NEVER said the plan out loud. The plan is to use cloaking devices to avoid the First Order's radar. How DJ finds out about the cloaking devices is never explained.

@rev1595

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ifatov they found out that Holdo planned to abandon ship because DJ overheard Finn's conversation with Poe. When they got caught, DJ cut a deal with the FO and the FO ran a cloaking scan to verify that this was happening. So by Poe talking about this with Finn in a compromised setting, it led to almost losing the entire war. And even if this weren't the case, the fact that it could happen in any other setting alone justifies Holdo withholding information from a character she doesn't trust. The secrecy of that information was the only thing standing in way of comple disaster

@Ifatov

3 жыл бұрын

@@rev1595 I know that DJ overheard the conversation. So logically, DJ should tell the FO: "Hey, they're abandoning ship, they're using transports", and the FO officer going like "Do they? Well, that'll be a turkey shoot. We'll look at our RADAR, and as soon as we see the transports leaving, we'll blow them to smithereens." 15 minutes later, the Raddus is blown up without any apparent transport ships leaving the hangar, and the FO officer concludes: "Well, guess they didn't make it out in time after all. Time for tea!". For real now: Why in the FUCK would anyone switch on the decloaking scan? This is extremely specific and DJ has no reason to assume that the ships are cloaked. If DJ and the FO can conclude that in fact cloaked ships are leaving the main ship and they need to scan for them, but POE of all people (and Finn and Rose) can't come to a similar conclusion, then a very well written dialogue is warranted. TLJ doesn't give us that, hence why this hole plot is crap.

@rev1595

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ifatov DJ doesn't care of they are cloaked. He has nothing to do with that.. All he knows is that they plan to abandon ship for whatever reason. So when they get caught, that's the information he gives them. The decloaking scan was the FO trying to verify his claim. When they did, almost all was lost. That's why no general in their right mind gives critical information to someone they don't trust, especially if that information is the key to survival.

Saw this last year, but it keeps coming up as a suggestion due to all the RoS vs. TLJ stuff floating around there now. Wonderful video, but if you think the Rogue One Vader scene was just "pandering" or "fan service", then you need to take a closer look at THAT movie's themes. Because that scene is absolutely on point and essential. Cheers!

@milesdarcey483

4 жыл бұрын

Was the Vader scene essential though? Not saying it is not fun to watch, but it was definitely just a "fan service" scene.

@o...o4144

4 жыл бұрын

The Vader scene is not necessary. I'm not saying that it's not cool, because, it is! But is definitely a fan service

@LaurenceQuint

4 жыл бұрын

@@o...o4144 No it's not. It's essential to the themes of the movie.

@amanshukla6122

4 жыл бұрын

@@o...o4144It's fan service for sure, but it is fan service that complements the story.

@nebulous6660

4 жыл бұрын

@@milesdarcey483 - No, it was essential. You never even backed up your claim. The Vader scene showed how important the disc was that Vader personally went to retrieve it and how close the Rebels came to losing it. Want to get even artsier? Ok, Vader represents the unstoppable force of the empire closing in on the Rebels who must sacrifice and work together to preserve the disc which is their only hope. It's shows the beginning of the desperate hand-off effort that continues into Episode 4 and shows that they are just barely making it by the skin of their teeth. There, happy?

The Last Jedi has interesting ideas that are poorly executed. Other films came out last year that had very similar ideas and themes as TLJ but were done much better and people loved them. For example, the idea of the idealistic hero failing horribly and becoming a bitter old man was done in Logan and people loved that movie. Professor X ended up far worse than Luke, he killed the X-Men and became a decrepit old man forced to live in isolation to prevent his powers from hurting others. And far less people complained about that compared to Luke because the film did a great job of developing that theme and making you care. The idea of the protagonist thinking that they're part of a special family and has a grand destiny was done in Blade Runner 2049. The whole movie built up the idea of K being Deckard's son and the whole thing was a huge subversion. But that worked because the whole point of the movie was that K, and the replicants, didn't need to have miracle births to be special, their choices define them, and being human to them means choosing to go beyond what they were made to be.

@dtatar22

6 жыл бұрын

Nice comparisons. I would like to bring up the point though, that the respective themes get a much higher weight in the two films you mentioned, thus have more time to develop and explain themselves. I would argue that many times TLJ doesn't take enough time to explain these character changes and subversions. Whether or not that's a failure on the movie's side is clearly up to individual taste (as we can see on the divided fanbase). However, I personally believe that going against *all* expectations was a mistake because the movie can't take the time to explain or present why the unexpected route it took makes logical or emotional sense (I think thematically the subversions are pretty well set up on the other hand).

@Carina5707

6 жыл бұрын

I'm glad to see that someone else besides me appreciated the ending of Blade Runner 2049. I thought it was brilliant and original. It's funny because it was my parents who wanted to see the film, and dragged me along, and they both ended up hating it and I was the one who like it lol

@YTwoKay

6 жыл бұрын

Amen! Even further, the movie abandons most of it's thematic questions halfway through and turns tail. The subversion of the Jedi actually being a problem is unlike anything I can compare it to, (except the Incredibles but we the audience never doubt our heros in that movie). But TLJ doesn't do that because both Luke and Rey live as Jedi. And the "Let the past die" and "Not Beating the First Order with a Lazer sword" stuff all mean nothing. Plus there's no more surprises for the next film. At least ones that can feel earned AND unpredictable.

@dickiewongtk

6 жыл бұрын

Why do you have so few likes?? I 100% agree with you. Both logan and bladerunn 2049 are Great film, much better than TLJ.

@Jarjarvideos

6 жыл бұрын

Logan was never an idilic hero. Him.being selfish and decrepit was expected and thusly easily accepted.

I've rewatched TLJ recently and I now think it's brilliant. It was a different film and this time I had an chance to pay it attention it deserves.

@fa1ry_juice

4 жыл бұрын

Same. I used to think this movie was bad but the more I rewatch it the more I enjoy it.

@prolibertate3499

4 жыл бұрын

What are you guys seeing in TLJ that makes you say that? Luke's character arc ending in nihilism? Knocking off a villain unceremoniously and leaving Abrams with no villain for the final movie?

@fa1ry_juice

4 жыл бұрын

@@prolibertate3499 What do you mean ended in nihilism? Luke redeemed his character as a jedi and helped save the galaxy by becoming a legend and giving the galaxy hope. I don't think the movie is perfect, but it has a lot more enjoyable qualities than people tend to admit. And Snoke was revealed to be created by Palpatine, and although it wasn't planned, it plays into TLJ quite nicely. And if Snoke did survive this movie, people would've called him a Palpatine knockoff. Don't be mean people because they enjoyed something you couldn't enjoy.

@prolibertate3499

4 жыл бұрын

@@fa1ry_juice You're right, if people enjoyed the movie I don't need to ruin it for them by pointing out how bad it is, so if I'm talking to a casual fan I would simply say "I didn't care for it "and move along without giving any analysis. But since we are on a youtube channel comments section devoted to writing as an art I think if there is any place to point out how bad a story is this would be it. Abrams had to create a new villain in the last movie because of Johnson's subversive blunder of killing the main villain in the middle of a trilogy. It was moronic really, and so Abrams really had no choice but to resurrect the emperor, which brings problems of its own, but ultimately this was all Johnson's fault thinking he was being clever by doing the opposite of what should happen at every possible point in TLJ. What Johnson was supposed to do was to give some back story to Snoke, display his power and evil, probably have him best Ray, and leave the audience wanting Snoke to be defeated in the following movie. Instead Johnson just takes Abrams' Snoke mystery box set up in Force Awakens and poops in it. That's really what Johnson did through the entire Last Jedi, he took all of Abrams' mystery boxes set up in Force Awakens and filled them with excrement. Some examples: How will Luke react to Rey having his father's lightsaber and finding him using the map he left behind? Rian Johnson's Answer: He will toss it aside as a meaningless object What was Luke doing all this time? Rian Johnson's Answer: Waiting to die. Who's this Snoke guy, and where did he come from? Rian Johnson's Answer: Doesn't matter, he's dead now. Who are Rey's parents? Rian Johnson's Answer: Nobody special Why did Ben Solo turn evil? Rian Johnson's Answer: He just did, and Luke tried to murder him in his sleep. That's not good writing, that's a nihilistic amateur hack who thinks he's being clever by smearing excrement on a canvas.

@fa1ry_juice

4 жыл бұрын

@@prolibertate3499 OK I don't agree with some of those points but that's OK. If I can't change your opinion I won't.

Love, love, LOVE this! Thanks for the great video.

Love how you're brave enough to be authentic and honest with your views even if they aren't popular. Thanks for the great videos as always!

About Rey's parents: This plot was already resolved in TFA. Rey had no reason to believe her parents were special in any way. Why should she think so? She was only waiting for them to come back. But Maz explained something to her that Rey already knew: Maz Kanata: Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku... they're never coming back... But... there's someone who still could. Rey: Luke. Maz Kanata: The belonging you seek is not behind you... it is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes... Feel it... The light... it's always been there. It will guide you. So Rey realised her parents had left for good. She had no reason to think they were anything special, and decided to spend her time finding Luke and bring him back instead. The FANS started to speculate about who rey's parents were the FANS wanted them to be special. But Rey had no reason to think so. So this is actually a mistake by the writers of The Last Jedi. They confused the character of Rey with the fans. How embarrassing...

@eXcommunicate1979

6 жыл бұрын

Then they should have built on THAT instead of /still/ having her searching for her parents' identity in TLJ.

@tompaine2709

6 жыл бұрын

@ Metal Gamer ''About Rey's parents: This plot was already resolved in TFA.'' I would not count that as resolved even after TLJ; Rey has one person's word for her parents being nobodies...Kylo's. He had an agenda of trying to turn her to his side and could easily have been lying; but after that film i don't care enough to watch the next movie to find out. TLJ just made me sad and angry.

@MetalGamer666

6 жыл бұрын

Not resolved as in who they were, but rather that she knew they were no one special already, and that they wouldn't return.

@tompaine2709

6 жыл бұрын

@Metal Gamer They could have them be anyone...they could be someone special. Her story is an exact mirror of Luke's..they could even spin her as Luke's daughter without too much trouble. That is a fan theory...that she is Luke's daughter with a character called Mara Jade; there is plenty of wiggle room in story terms...they can do almost anything they like.

@MetalGamer666

6 жыл бұрын

Yes, but from her point of view she had no reason to think they were anyone special while waiting for them on Jakku. Fans influenced Rian Johnson, and he wanted to subvert their expectations, like he tried to do in the movie... every 5 minutes...

The problem wasn't that it didn't follow the basic mechanics of story. The problem was that it didn't earn those mechanics in the first place. Example: Captain doesn't tell anybody the plan because?... (plot). It didn't earn the whole "Captain doesn't tell anybody" angle, there was no *reason* for it. This whole movie was just one big ass continuity error. Why the hell would Rose stop Finn from sacrificing himself if her whole philosophy was "protect the things we love" blah blah cringey "lesson"? Again, makes no *sense.* There's no *reason* in it. If you determine the quality/success of a film based solely on what rules it follows you're not setting the bar very high. It's how well it follows those rules and more so makes us forget that they're even there. A movie shouldn't compel itself to follow these rules, it should follow them on its own because those are the ingredients of a good film in the first place. This movie followed those rules like a checklist, hence why there are so many holes because they just forcibly made things happen to fill out this film checklist, rather than making a story that follows these points themselves.

@NoInjusticeLastsForever

5 жыл бұрын

Following these rules, any movie can be deemed a good movie. Guess The Room is a great film now.

Found your channel a few weeks ago with your video on Fury Road. I think I've watched a video every day since then. Fantastic analysis that is told very clearly. It helps that we have the same tastes also. Just wanted to say you have a new fan in me! Big time!

Finn doesn't start his journey as Solo, he is a brainwashed clone who has an epiphany. Solo joins the rebellion because he loves Leia and befriends Luke and he has a personal code of the swashbuckler he is...

If this is the movie that the audience and the franchise needed, than the franchise needed to die, and the fandom needed to disband and forget about Star Wars. You forget one important little detail. This might have worked as an individual film. But is a disgrace as a Star Wars movie. Rename the characters, rename the movie, rename everything and it might be called good if you give it a redesign too, so it doesn't look like Star Wars.

For all those wondering why people seem to not like this film: *_Most_* of the praise for this film ignores the actual events of the film; everything needs to be re-contextualized into *deeper themes* or overarching character development. But these are secondary, these are emergent properties of good storytelling where the characters are believable and likable. People _must_ first and foremost believe in your story before we take any of the big picture seriously. And this is the problem; for many the plot is just too inane. Our suspension of disbelief is shattered by incompetent characters and plot holes. The movie has themes and characters evolving but the film earns none of it. The fundamentals come first. A solid plot that makes sense comes first. _This,_ whether you agree or disagree, is why people dislike the movie. This is the general perspective of the detractors, and if you can't at least understand this perspective we're not going to get anywhere. We're both going to be spinning our wheels and the gap will never be bridged. Which is a shame. For all the vitriol spewed on both "sides" most people don't want to dislike these movies. Most people don't want a divided fan base. We want to enjoy Star Wars too. But with such a botched plot, we're unable to. Not to mention, we can't express our criticisms without having various insults screeched at us, ranging from stupid to subverted fanboy. It's frustrating to try and engage with many of the film's supporters. They seem incapable of discussing charitably. Evidenced in the comments on this thread. For anyone who wishes to see my actual criticisms of the plot they can be found in the thread down below.

@nawalli

6 жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@AlexReynard

6 жыл бұрын

That is REALLY well said. Those last three sentences especially, absolutely nail the situation.

@whattheheckification

6 жыл бұрын

You said a lot there without actually saying anything

@zzxp1

6 жыл бұрын

he said that nobody wants a star wars movie to suck but sadly they do.

@xenophon5354

6 жыл бұрын

whattheheckification I mean...if you can't understand what I've said, I don't know what to tell you. But I'll try anyway. TL;DR: For the audience to actually take a movie, its themes, and its character development seriously the plot *needs* to make sense. And for tLJ, the plot is hemorrhaging holes and flaws. Accordingly people don't take it seriously. Well great, thanks for actually contending with my arguments. I understand that's more difficult than a quick quip. The supporters of this film do not talk about the plot or events of the film as positives. All the positives one hears about for this film are the visuals, the ***themes*** and the overarching character development. The detractors claim that the above positives are firstly not even particularly interesting. The ***themes*** are childish and unoriginal to the point of banality. The visuals are fleetingly impressive. And the character development is not earned by the film. Character development is an emergent property of storytelling where characters change due to their experiences. Problem of course being the character experiences in this movie are totally inane. They make no sense. And so for many people, we cannot take any of the film seriously when the logic of the film is totally inconsistent. Plot and fundamentals come first. When your plot is hemorrhaging plotholes, the themes do not matter, it is a poor story.

Rewatching it, I get your point but, instead of discussing with a huge essay I would just like to point out (with a shorter essay lol) that your comparisson with rogue one is misguided at best and dishonest at worst. Rogue One brings a lot of interesting themes and drama for the War between rebels and the Empire (and without sacrificing it's tone, a thing that TLJ suffers from given the constant humor). The Vader scene, even though it was a fan service nonetheless, is well place and makes sense within the narrative. After all how come he would let the rebels escape with the plans without lifting a finger? The scene not only shows how far Vader can come in order to protect the Empire but also the anonymous heroism from the nameless soldiers that sacrificed themselves for the rebellion in the same scene. It goes beyond than just 'pandering the audience'.

@richards679

4 жыл бұрын

Very well put. I absolutely loved that rogue one scene and rgue one in general because of the emphasis it put on individual sacrifice and heroism in the face of insurmountable odds.

@jordanthayer5160

4 жыл бұрын

It amazes me how much two people can watch the same thing and get two completely different responses from it. I agree about the Vader scene. It provides a dramatic aesthetic not seen in Star Wars: horror. It also builds upon Vader's mythos which is, in many ways, important to further establishing why great Jedi like Obi-Wan and Yoda viewed him irredeemable, and how much the character of Anakin had been transformed. Is it fan-servicey? Yes. But that service still provides a point. A quick similar scene in TLJ that I say is fan-service and cringe is when Finn says, "Rebel scum." It's a callback to a character line that, for the fans, became synonymous with the Empire's perspective on rebel fighters. But it also serves a purpose to signal th end of this part of Finn's journey into being a rebel. TLJ had great themes. But it sacrificed so much from a flawed TFA to get there. I, too, love Rey's lineage being nothing. But it sacrifices the more explicit intentions found in TFA. When you look at the trilogy as one complete narrative, even though I place the blame on TFA for starting over with boring and tired themes, plot beats, characters and iconography--and agree with Rian's overall message to move beyond them--TLJ is the film that broke the sequel trilogy. Had this been a standalone film, I would enjoy it so much more.

@Ratchet2431

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you. That scene is great and it's the perfect conclusion for the film.

@tristenmoles7933

4 жыл бұрын

The characters are badly written though. Like completely unmemorable. Hardly remember any of their names or what their service to the story was. And I'm talking about rogue one

We didn't know what a stupid parent reveal were till TROS. (also I loved the parent reveal in TLJ.)

@WhoElseButJarjosa

4 жыл бұрын

I was so disappointed with the 'corrected' parent reveal in TROS. The revelation of Rey's lineage in TLJ was SO good. By far one of my favorite parts of that movie. It shows us that a hero can come from anywhere and that our destiny isn't determined by our past. To me, that idea was the true power of the story being told with this trilogy. But with TROS, JJ and Disney robbed the whole story of any lasting power. For what? Fan service... I feel they should have just stuck to their guns.

@omicronenoch9974

4 жыл бұрын

I can definitely disagree about opinions on art, but it does seem odd to me that anyone would think the parent reveal in TLJ was good. I only cared about who Rey's parents were because the movie told me I should care (I certainly didn't care about who Finn or Poe's parents were). the reason the parent reveal in Ep5 is good at subverting expectations is because it took something we thought we knew and changed it to something new. Its not like we were wondering if there was more to the story of Vader and Luke's father at the end of Ep4. TLJ doesn't subvert expectations with its parent reveal, it just delivers on expectations in an unsatisfying way. The audience already expected to have the mystery of Rey's parents resolved. TLJ tried to resolve it (as expected), but did it in a lame way. It would have been similar if after the big reveal that Vader was Luke's father in Ep5, that Ep6 reveal that Vader wasn't actually Luke's father.

@WhoElseButJarjosa

4 жыл бұрын

@@omicronenoch9974 The revelation of Rey's parents in TLJ isn't good because it merely subverts our expectations. It's good because it subverts our expectations with the purpose of creating drama and, by extension, shifting our perspective on the story. There's this strange idea that revealing that Rey is a nobody was somehow a slight against the audience when, in truth, it's just presenting the character of Rey with the hardest truth that she could possibly confront - to realize that her parents are not only not coming back for her, that they never cared about her in the first place. This forces her to move beyond her past and forge her own destiny. In the big picture, however, it shows us that a Force sensitive person can be born from anywhere and sends a message to us as an audience that our potential is not constrained by what bloodline we hail from. Far from being a non-reveal, I believe this idea could have been the unifying factor of the entire trilogy. It's a powerful concept, especially for Star Wars. That doesn't mean you don't have to like it. But my point here is there's much more going on with the reveal than it might initially seem.

@sianbirkner6391

4 жыл бұрын

Matt Jarjosa well said! Thank you

@omicronenoch9974

4 жыл бұрын

@Matt Jarjosa Thank you for the explanation. I can see from that perspective how meaningless parents could be appealing. I may have to go back and re-watch The Force Awakens because it felt to me like she had resolved this arc in that film. She made the decision to quit waiting for her parents and to instead go meet her destiny. She was even told by Maz definitively that her parents were never coming back. The notion that we needed to be told that bloodline was unimportant is odd to me though. That idea has always existed pretty deeply in Star Wars. The Force is in all things. Yes Luke, Leia, and Anakin are related, but they're it (at least until TROS). The prequals are teaming with powerful Force users that are no relation. Force users came from all species, and could manifest anywhere. If you just look at Ep4, its about a 'nobody' who recognizes his potential and isn't constrained by his family heritage. The fact that Luke later turns out to be related to Vader isn't significant because it reinforces bloodlines, its significant because it changes Luke's point of view and allows him to conquer evil through love instead of through combat. Star Wars has never been about bloodlines. Although admittedly if you're going to make call something the Skywalker Saga, it seems reasonable to assume that it specifically would be about the Skywalkers.

Nice point out with why haldo didn't tell the plan. Problem is you know he is impulsive, but apparently just expected him to just sit in a corner and stew.

@joshuabonesteel2303

6 жыл бұрын

Also could make the argument that she didn't trust anyone. Poe got focused because he asked, but she actually didn't tell anyone the plan. She let the captains of the other ships die, she put people in place to prevent escapees, and ultimately had to put down a mutiny. All this could have been prevented.

@joshuabonesteel2303

6 жыл бұрын

Another point is how do you manage a mass evacuation of a ship but dont let key personnel know what is going on? How does that work?

@VixxKong2

6 жыл бұрын

Joshua Bonesteel Holdo made no sense as a character. And that lame attempt to make her look like a hero by sacrificing herself is dumb, because right after you have Rose and Poe saying that sacrifice is bad.

While I agree that the movie somewhat fullfills these criteria, I'd rather make the argument that movies and media are a more dynamic form. You can, in theory, fullfill all bunch of criteria, and it can still fall flat on its face. What we as humans want isn't always rational, and there are plenty of exceptions throughout history to prove that. Wants vs needs and the hero's journey are the bedrock foundation, but we can relate to more than that. Life is incredibly dynamic, and its one redeeming quality is that its interesting, changes and concepts come in different forms. Normally I'd be against this kind of talk, because it sounds like I'm making the argument of the uniqueness of the individual, but I am not. I know the importance of the human condition and our primal instincts, but I feel like there is more than pop culture media tends to offer. A lot of the more abstract diverge from these points to prove that there is more than just a chain of events to a movie. What I loved about the original and the prequels was the world. Some concepts were really boring, the dark side corrupting for example, but there was still so much to discuss. Why was there an endless conflict? What in their philosophy was lacking throughout the iterations of the Jedi and the Sith? Kotor 1 and 2 spawned from this world building by Lucasfilms, but now the whole canon has completely been rewritten due to the new movies. In my opinion they failed to establish the illussion (reference to building a video game) that these people are part of a breathing world. No actions and events make any sense, and you can therefore only see the studio. The characters feel like they are a bad amalgamation of a few colliding visions, they can never be described as realistically consistent. George Lucas always had a consistent view with each trilogy, and it always fit into the world he had established (even Luke becoming a hermit), and now people are being injected into this who apparently didn't realize/couldn't act upon how much better the source material was. Stories like Kotor 1 and 2 showed how much there was left to discuss, but J.J. and Ryan completely threw any chance of the deep, immersive and rich world building out the window.

@TheAwesomoe

6 жыл бұрын

Granted, I may have just misunderstood their genius, but as a person who has devoted a lot of time internally discussing the laws of this universe, Lucas' vision for 7-9 was compatible, and this is not. A lot of disjunctive and contradictory things when it comes to the world. And that's ultimately what saved the characters for me when they were annoying in the originals or prequels, the story being told still superseded them. For example, I find few redeeming qualities about Rey, but her circumstances are also not appealing to me. When Anakin was talking about sand, I still knew that there was potential and a great set of circumstances surrounding him. The chancelor persuading him as a social concept, the chosen one as a mythical and social concept and his ambitions as a philosophical concept (grandiosity).

@InfernoBlade64

6 жыл бұрын

Chanson like prequels is for most people

Loved this video. Having this fresh approach on this movie it's so interesting.

Adam Drivers delivery at 8:58 is perfect.

The problem with Holdo isn't that she didn't tell him the plan... it's that she didn't tell him anything. She doesn't trust him? Cool, then tell him exactly enough to keep him from going and doing something insubordinate (like sending 2 people off on a side quest...) or setting up a mutiny, exactly like he did. That would've been plenty.

@eXcommunicate1979

6 жыл бұрын

How could she not trust him when he was the guy who fucking blew up Starkiller Base? lol. I hate TLJ.

@Dorian_sapiens

6 жыл бұрын

The commanding officer doesn't have to explain squat. She should have blasted him out the airlock.

@pyrosianheir

6 жыл бұрын

Dorian sapiens you're right, she didn't HAVE to do anything so far as Poe was concerned. That doesn't make it not dumb as bricks to treat him the way she did rather than have him use his charisma and respected reputation to keep everyone calm.

@dknotthekong

6 жыл бұрын

pyrosianheir wasn’t he sent to get the MAP TO LUKE SKYWALKER!!! If she doesn’t trust him, who does she trust?

@pyrosianheir

6 жыл бұрын

DKnottheKong He was. By Leia. Holdo is her own person.

Isn't the first duty of entertainment to entertain? Yes, I agree the movie is structurally competent but it failed to do something didn't it? I feel like the bigger question is why did a movie that was both structurally competent and quite original, loose such a large portion of it's audience? Why did it fail when it did everything right? The wonky film school "Well you just don't get it," doesn't work because, yes, people didn't get it. And the fact that they didn't get it IS the failure. Making your audience "get it" is the point of telling a story. Otherwise why don't you just record the film in Gaelic, backwards, encrypted with a ten million bit key that you destroy. I guess I'm trying to say it feels like you went with the for the easy question of "I liked it so let me show why you should like it too" instead of "Why didn't people like this even though I like it." Because if you try to answer that question, honestly, I feel that delves deeper into the nature of story then just point to how the movie structurally did everything right.

@JustWrite

6 жыл бұрын

I actually had a whole other script that was trying to answer that question that I didn't end up going with, but that I may end up making now as a follow up to this, because I agree with you, it is the more interesting question. But also, to be clear, I'm less interested in "proving" to someone that this movie is "good," than I am in extracting a storytelling principal that people can use going forward.

@telltellyn

6 жыл бұрын

"why did a movie that was both structurally competent and quite original, loose such a large portion of it's audience?" Stubborn expectations, and a snowball effect once the hate began.

@Ashman792

6 жыл бұрын

Amen, rebut that "just write"

@enloveyduvey001

6 жыл бұрын

no, a film can be structurally competent and original and disliked and not because of snowball effect!!!!!! tonally it wasnt a star wars film!! i mean a "your mama" joke in a star wars film -.- and leave that alone too, its just shitty for one film in a TRILOGY (TFA) to be tonally different from the next film in the same trilogy. i know diff directors but come on, no consistency makes it feel like disney doesnt really care about the story or legacy. just wants to sell tickets and toys. thats why people were irrate. not "snowball effect"

@xlrouge

6 жыл бұрын

nextpkfr Maybe what you say it’s true , I went with zero expectations and I enjoyed the ride. Then after seeing the reviews I started to change my mind over the movie. So if I’m objective about my experience in the theatre I’d say that it’s an ok movie but too sad.

Great video mate

Very well thought out video.

@thomasstull868

4 жыл бұрын

If you thought this was very well thought out, then you should check this out... kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3elyMl7kqm2ZdY.html

A lot of good points made here. I'm already a proponent of The Last Jedi, but this offers a lot of stuff I hand't even thought about. Nicely done.

One big issue with an analysis like this, and in my opinion the main reason for dissent on this movie, is that you're choosing to view TLJ as a standalone piece. You're dissecting what THIS movie does independently of what the prior movies have established. If this wasn't a Star Wars movie with decades of established canon, I would view this movie much more positively for many of the reasons you outline. However, this movie decides that three movies of character development for Luke can be thrown out with a five minute flashback. It decides that plot points hinted at in TFA don't matter. Deciding to subvert expectations is fine, even good, but it has to be done in a way that makes sense. Being edgy and unpredictable is not good on it's own (even if the main theme of your movie is 'let the past die'). If it wasn't a Star Wars movie, and a standalone film set a new universe I would think it was a pretty decent film. The fact that it's supposed to be a continuation of a story with developed characters and developed story beats that it ignores or completely blows up makes it bad writing. If Brandon Sanderson had decided when finishing The Wheel of Time, 'you know what, screw it, I don't like how Robert Jordan set these characters up, it doesn't fit the story I want to tell so I'm going to just scrap all of that and do my own thing because I have this great idea', even if his idea had been objectively good, it still would be a shit ending to The Wheel of Time. Same with TLJ. Objectively a fine idea that is crap as a continuation of the Star Wars narrative.

@LunarMerlin

6 жыл бұрын

^ This. People need to realize that TLJ is NOT a standalone film. It's Film 8 out of 9. Star Wars is based on the promise of a story told in 9 films/chapters. TLJ and to an extent TFA don't follow that, which is the core reason why loyal fans are pissed. Not some diversity or feminism argument or whatnot, just the fact that these two films are unfaithful to the original premise. In that regard, they are even worse than the prequels (which are bad films based on acting and dialogue, but at the end of the day are still thematically Star Wars films. TLJ is not a Star Wars film. )

@enesvy

6 жыл бұрын

But in the movies, Luke has always been a whiny, seat-of-the-pants fighter. He's not very bright when it comes to making plans and having patience, and he was never a good leader. His behavior in this movie totally made sense to me. Bailing on a Jedi school after a first class of failed students? Total Luke. He needs leaders. He would've made a great teacher in a school led by someone else. But he didn't have anyone else. I've loved the movies since they first came out. This is the Luke I grew up with.

@lukethompson7083

6 жыл бұрын

Luke's main character trait is that he sees the good in everyone and always wants to help his friends. He wouldn't strike down Darth Vader because he still thought there was good in him, but you think it was in character for him to come two seconds away from deciding to kill his nephew that he's known his whole life? That decision of his set the events of the entire story in place, and should have never happened. Then you think he would just hermit up while his friends fought and died? It was lazy writing to just completely change Luke's outlook on humanity to get the message and story RJ wanted. Also, if that's not enough it's established right away that Luke seeks adventure in A New Hope. He hated being stuck on Tatooine. So now, this character that we know will risk everything to save his friends, who seeks adventure, and who sees the good in everyone is just going to give up on his nephew because he can't be saved and sit alone on an island while his friends die. No, that isn't Luke.

@enesvy

6 жыл бұрын

Very interesting! Yeah, you and I came away with a totally different character from the movies, for sure. But I like what you saw in him, and I can certainly see your point of view. For me, whether his goal was to help his friends, etc., it always had to be him alone. He never sought help in a crisis--he had to be the lone hero. Drove me crazy. NOT killing Kylo was one moment when he put that part of himself in check, finally! He knew he needed to use his head, not just gut instinct. But then, I agree with you. For growth's sake, it would've been nice had he not secreted himself away. That said, it still fit with the Luke I had grown up with: if he can't control it, he runs from it. In the end, he still did things his way, but he did it with forethought, with planning, and with the courage to sacrifice all his life force to (as you said) save the lives of his sister and his friends. But again, I like your perspective and it gives me a new view on Luke. Thank you.

@brosnan

6 жыл бұрын

100% agree, for a movie universe to work it MUST follow its own rules it has established, and TLJ took a steaming dump all over the SW universe

More of these please Sage! :) Just like the purpose of Jacob Krueger's 'Write Your Screenplay' podcast --- it's all about learning what particular thing from a film that can help make our own reach the next level. My top ones so far of your content: - Batman Begins - Dark Tower - Million Dollar Baby

Interesting video. Very well stated.