Taking fat dabs and watching this whole thing let’s go baby

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

Haha enjoy sir!

@THELAUTKA

3 күн бұрын

real

Very cool! I accidentally bred black rose and blue dreams together and ended up with a dark blue rili, shrimp genetics are cool!

I’ve only got red cherries in my tank but a couple of months ago I noticed I had a couple of brown with a white stripe from head to tail now I’ve found a blue one! I’m shocked.

This is one of my favorite videos, for the simple fact that it has taught me a lot more than any other KZread channel, about how the shrimps coloration is made from the breeding processes. Thanks for the good videos

Thank you, very informative. i've watched a few videos about different colour shrimp , but none have explained it as clearly as this.

@Fishtory

Ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

4 year old video…and I still love nerding out with you in ‘22!

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

Why thank you! It's actually going on 5 years this month. A few details were changed...but everything in the video has now been confirmed with DNA finally! It was a lot of guess work prior

I actually ended up with a load of red rili blues! Took 5 years but got there in the end.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Score

i added 10 different brown/grey shrimps, bought one red shrimp and one yellow shrimp & now my 40gal looks like this video 😂

@Fishtory

5 күн бұрын

Hahaha well they still eat algae at least

This is a chart that I had taped to the side of one of my tanks when I was breeding shrimp and trying to develop my own line, purple with a blue head. I didn't get very far before I accidentally put pb gourami fry in the tank. I didn't notice them until they had grown to a decent size, and by that time they had killed off all the shrimp.

@Shleeeemp

7 ай бұрын

Congratulations you made invisible shrimp! Joking aside, I feel you pain. I’ve added things to tanks with the best of intentions only to unleash all hell…

this is amazing. i am an undergrad student researching about the colour evolution in neocaridina (because i like to breed them in my spare time) and this explanation has cleared up A LOT of questions i've been having. thank you so much!

This is so informative! Great job, fantastic reporting!🌻🌼🐝 Keep it up 🙌

Cool chart. Thanks for walking us through it. Active camouflage with chromatophores makes me think of cephalopods, which are my favorite salt water inverts.

@Fishtory

4 ай бұрын

100% very similar cellular systems 😉

You deserve way more views

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+Kamran Ali thank you kindly my friend. If you would like to help share the links to my channel or videos i would be very grateful. It's still very new, but I plan to keep this sort of video being made every day or two...I just don't know how to get the word out to people. Im trying to go much more in depth and talk about the big picture all tied back to your fish tank. Thanks for watching and commenting. Keep in touch and id love to hear what animals or tanks you have set up

@Anni_Mau

6 жыл бұрын

I would say keep commenting on other peoples videos (not asking for people to watch your content just commenting on the topic and on their channel. I found you as a suggested video on the side of Aquarium Co-Op for example. If you are present there people might click on your username since it sounds very interesting :)) So I am now going to continue to watch through your content :)

@tedcasablanca5115

4 жыл бұрын

because he sounds sexy and does not show himself

@anotherbmxchannel8783

4 жыл бұрын

I agree. Just share the sh!+ out of it and it will happen. Go! :)

This answered so many questions I had. Thank you for sharing this perspective.

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for watching. With DNA we are only now unlocking what secrets breeders keep too

@fungdark8270

3 жыл бұрын

Same, I have a shrimp that is going beyond the darkening of natural breeding to blue parts and I was looking for something. I’m trying to breed it with a couple darker females

Love this video and the whole genetic tree chart. Just went and picked up 10 yellow neons after watching.

@Fishtory

5 ай бұрын

Youd probably love my newer videos on the history of caridina domestication

I have been searching the depths of youtube trying to find this exact information! Thank you for your upload

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

Cathy Robidoux thank you kindly for watching! I just uploaded new videos with more detail, and there's a big surprise for shrimp lovers coming up

Boosting again for the algorithm 🙌 Love your work, keep it up! 🌻🐝

Wow! So much to learn, thank you so much 😊 for sharing your knowledge. We are new to shrimp and this is very helpful.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

No problem and welcome to the jungle haha

Man, this is the best explanation of neocaridina evolution I have found. Really interesting point about how brown wild shrimp have the most potential. Also, I really appreciated your further explanation as to where the colours that make up that brown came from, as well as why this fact doesn't clash with your earlier point about natural selection / why we don't see these colours in wild cherry shrimp today (e.g. that maybe yellow was ok in the past deep in the ocean, etc.). Do you have a 'neocaridina care guide' video that I can't find?

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

I should have those videos ... but it may be just like "blue dream shrimp, species Spotlight " or neocaridina Davidi care guide...they'd be old videos now, so old that their Latin name has changed...but accurate other than that

@richardmaccarthy101

3 жыл бұрын

Your shrimp are just so happy, and I also am going for the planted+++ approach so I was wondering what your rules of thumb are. You're right though, that info is there in plenty of your shrimp vids already! Unfortunately I listened too much to the idea that cherries are hardy/easest starter shrimp, now I'm stuck trying to find a middle point in water parameters between them and my phoenix rasbora! #shouldagoneneo@@Fishtory

I really enjoy this video. Thx. 👍👍

EPIC VIDEO

@Fishtory

8 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it! You may also like my betta history video or my caridina shrimp video...which is Even more in depth and better editing

Saved! Thank you for this, bloody brilliant video!

@Fishtory

7 ай бұрын

You're welcome! And thank you. Check out the newer history of Caridina lines, hour long documentary i made about a year ago, as well..

Great info, thank you!

Nicely done

Thanks for explaining the chart.

This is one great video!

Great Video!

Great information, thank you!

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

you're most welcome!

Great explanation of that chart! That chart needs updated though.

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+L.R.Bretz's Aquatics Thanks man, yeah the chart is a few years old, and it needs to be clear that things revert and rili's are a starting place and culprit for a ton of new strains. What would you change Lucas? You know dar more than me, buddy. I know how to change charts though haha

amazingly informative vid.

I’m a shrimp keeper myself. This is a really good video. New sub 😁

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

glad you enjoyed it....ive updated info 2x in a few months... new genetic research and digging up / translating the Asian breeding sources means that there are paths to specific colors..then revert to wild and cross with other wilds and restart...making tracking the true source of a color or pattern ,difficult

@FridayFishFacts

6 жыл бұрын

The Secret History Living in Your Aquarium that is so cool. I used to study charts like this when I first started. Maybe you’d like to checkout my channel 😉

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

I definitely will

@ESF19791111

3 жыл бұрын

I'LL CHECKOUT YOUR CHANNEL 2 :)

You are a good teacher.... thanks a lot.

Nice job thanks

Very informative thank you :)

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+Lancashire Lass of course! Thanks again for watching and liking. Im working hard to get subscribers and shared links. Is there anything youd like to learn next video?

Amazing video

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

Another amazing old video haha! Thanks

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you found it and enjoyed! Thanks

Helps with understanding the breed too good video

I’m so sad that the Neocaridina verities aren’t nearly as cool or diverse as the Caridina. Neocaridina are mostly just one color with no patterns…

Man your awesome keep it up!

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+longlivelilsnupe riplacapone thank you kindly! There's a new shrimp video out on cherry thru blue variants on my channel if you dug this one. Also im working on a big set of projects i bet you'll dig if you enjoyed this one

Cool chart

Very nice video.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you

If I keep orange + read or orange + green shrimp in a tank, would the eventually turn brown after generations of breeding?

@Fishtory

Жыл бұрын

Most likely yes

I need some of the neon orange 😁

You're telling me people have successfully bred purple shriml but didn't pursue a new line with them? Talk about disappointing

@Fishtory

7 күн бұрын

Well they've tried... but no one seemingly ends up with more than one in a few dozen turning up

Tks. Top info 🤙👍

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

No problem. Have a great day 😀

Is it possible to selectively breed them so they adapt to different habitats i.e. lower temperature environments or say live in a wider range of water conditions?

I have a tank of red cherry that I have never selectively bred, and many are dark, some have back stripes, and one has blue parts of the exoskeleton! I’m trying to breed it with a couple dark females in a breeder box and just see what happens, I only have one tank for now

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah thats fun for a while, it tends to trend to lower grade types with more and more transparent makings over 5 or 6 generations unless you help cull and guide the population a certain way

VERRY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE VIDEO :) THANK YOU FROM ISRAEL :)

Fascinating content as always! I just upgraded to a fluval 2.6 g. So far ive got 5 cherry shrimp, 4 amano, and 4 guppies! Do you think its safe for the shrimp if i put more neocaridina into this tank? I want to start a colony of shrimp!

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

Probably, but make sure to clean the water if the nitrates raise too high with the guppies, and also give the shrimp lots of places to hide their babies or guppies eat them

Can we cross orange and red neocaridina shrimp?!?

thanks man

I have blue carbon rili grade A but would like to improve the light blue coloration to get to grade S. I added blue dreams and blue jellies into the colony would that be a mistake?

Good explanation. Do you have a video for caridinia shrimps

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+Ker Qi En it's funny you ask, I just bought some crystal reds, and I plan on a video of them soon.

I am so happy with my shrimp.

Interesting. I'm making a jarrarium with a few shrimp. How many can i put in a galon jar? Will they breed even if they're different color? Will they annoy each other?

Years ago when I was 18 I was bait shrimping off the coast of tarpon springs florida with my parents.. and I had seen a small shrimp like these in a catch.. I wonder if it wasn't brought in from tropical storms we were having around that time or are they in that area..

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Probably another species if it was salt water. I know there are lots of prawns and local shrimp including ghost shrimp that live around there too though

I didn t know a thing....if i have some blue jelly together with some red cherry ( it s an example) with generation i can have some red rili blue so?

@Kat-hs2ij

5 жыл бұрын

Possible, but some hybrid can turn grey or brown, or they can lose their color after some times

I really want green jade I’m gonna separate my oranges from reds and hope I can get green jades they are so expensive

Where’s the shrimp from the thumbnail

@Fishtory

Жыл бұрын

Dead, it was 5 or 6 years ago... but was f1 of a blue jelly neo palmata and a bloody Mary rili.... the f2 was blotchy red and brown and by f3 they were mostly clear with some random dots of color. It wasn't a stable line ever for me

Hey Alex, excellent video. I have a question for you > Is it possible / good for neocaridina in a dirt planted tank? I can get sakura red here by me, but am hesitant to put them in my dirted/ moderately planted tank as i don't know if its good for them? Looking to wait about 6 weeks before i introduce the shrimp, currently at week 1.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

100% they like planted and dirted tanks the most due to the mulm and algae /bio film layers. Just make sure it's fully cycled since they're sensitive to ammonia. After 2 months max you should be clear with even the most ammonia rich soils if you have plants in there. Cheers!

@sq33qs

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory - Awesome!, Thank you so much for the response. Good news then. I'll be patient and give the tank all the time it needs to cycle before introducing the shrimp. Cheers bud!

Could you breed a orange and a wild type then? Or chocolates and orange.

@Fishtory

Жыл бұрын

You can cross any of them... but it tends to be a nature color of gray or brown and striped or spotted after a few mixed generations... i think the chocolate would override the orange after a few calico generations most likely

So I'm interested in making a stable purple lineage. Only bloody Mary mixed with blue dream can throw purple patients? Or is there others that possible throw purple

@MrThfknsamurai

4 жыл бұрын

I know it's not like paint mixing and they will someone revert back to brown as the colony ages but even if the browns throw out an occasional purple or 2 then you.could isolate and try to start anew colony and keep culling

@Fishtory

4 жыл бұрын

So from what i have seen, only deep deep blue shrimp crossed with bloody marys or blue rili x bloody marys seem to throw a few purples or blue and reds. So far people have tried thousands of ways and no one is reliably getting purple sadly

Thank you so much for the information. I appreciate you. I've started a shrimp tank. I've posted two videos of what I'm trying to do with my shrimp. After seeing this i think I'm not going to get the results I was looking for. I would appreciate your feedback

@Fishtory

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! Some of the info has since been edited slightly...but most is correct. They started really figuring out DNA these last 2 years. Cheers!

There’s four wild type neocaridina Davidi on the chart. The palmata only are connected to the pearls.

@thomasconnell8956

6 жыл бұрын

Great explanation though, very helpful!

Is the rili gene homozygous recessive? It seems more pattern. The colors are obviously more line bred though I’m sure some of these colors came from recessive genes such as an amelinistic gene perhaps? Caridina sp. seem to play more along these recessive gene lines for example crs and cbs. Super cool. Sorry if this question has been asked. I wasn’t motivated to go through all the comments. Really great video! Cheers

@Fishtory

4 жыл бұрын

Good question, and the problem everyone has in this shrimp hobby, is that there are 3 or 4 ways to arrive at various color and pattern lines . So for instance an orange rili could have come from a yellow line that was red before that...or could have been from a straight red genetic line with no orange or yellow genetic info in the line. On top of that, there are now thought to be 4 and maybe as many as 8 species of neocaridina from zhangjiajiensis, to palmata to davidi ... and they all express things slightly differently. So there are likely dormant genes still passed on, that only express when crossed just right But for me these were blue dreams that came down the red morph line and then started to Express clear... but some are bloody mary and will express blueish clear and light blue...and yet even though you can select for the same phenotype ... the genes can end up with co-dominance or latent generation expression. Basically it's a headache unless you know the line you have and it's lineage back to around 2008/2011 when the traits first were solidified. I hope that helps? But im guessing it wont.

👏

Great video!! Just subscribed and liked. I have something really interesting that doesn't flow exactly the way your chart says so wondering if I can get your opinion on it. I have orange shrimp that are breeding like crazy and about every maybe one or two out of a hundred come out red. The females are stunning red, the male's not as much. Anyway the way your charts flow it says red goes to Orange but it doesn't show reverse, so I'm wondering if your chart took in all the different ways things come out or that was just a general summation of how it normally goes. Again I have orange shrimp and they spit out nice red ones I would say one or two out of a hundred. They've been doing this for quite some time so it's not a one off. Let me know what you think about it and what might be happening there.

@dabian4494

2 жыл бұрын

it's a genetic throwback most likely.

@craigsfishtanks-fishplants1556

2 жыл бұрын

@@dabian4494 Wow, really old post, over 4 years ago. Thanks for the comment!

so does green jade come from orange?? If you start with a tank of orange, would they just eventually start producing green jade?

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

They did come from that line, yes... but it takes a one in a million type mutation...then you can cross them with their siblings and usually 25% will have the genes...over time you breed those ones and more and more greens will appear...but they do this on huge farms outdoors usually...so we are talking very very rare odds compared to just keeping 40 or 50 shrimp at home. But it's not impossible...some people get lucky hehe

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

They did come from that line, yes... but it takes a one in a million type mutation...then you can cross them with their siblings and usually 25% will have the genes...over time you breed those ones and more and more greens will appear...but they do this on huge farms outdoors usually...so we are talking very very rare odds compared to just keeping 40 or 50 shrimp at home. But it's not impossible...some people get lucky hehe

@pecosR0B

2 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory so if I want any green cherry shrimp I should probably just buy them from a store/online then huh lol

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

@@pecosR0B yeah lol... sorry to crush any hopes or dreams...but there are finally some good green lines... both Garden of Eder (Grant) and Aquatic Arts (I have a discount of 15% if you use SECRET15) Have some of the best green lines In our country at the moment. They were notoriously bad at staying true ...and sometimes still get yellow stripes in their back, but it's far better than 5 or 10 years ago.

I started with around 4 black and blue neocaridina culls from a local fish store. About a year later I have dozens of shrimp and they are all red and or clear. Out of curiosity how do you tell if the flesh is red or just the shell?

@Fishtory

4 жыл бұрын

Frustratingly you'll only know when they die. Within the first 3 to 5hours of death youll see the true color

@hopemaierle6483

Жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory I had some shrimp that had died awhile ago. When they died the turned very pale with hints of their original color. Would that be flesh or shell?

@Fishtory

Жыл бұрын

@@hopemaierle6483 flesh, as the exoskeleton/ shell can't change color, because it's essentially like a finger nail or tooth...it grows and then hardens. Great question! Thanks for writing, Have a great week as well! -Alex

where did you get this chart

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

bonsai shrimp co out of Taiwan

Hi im new to this hobby, what colour shrimps do the shrimps breed with, because in the chart there is only 1 colour, what colour must the colour of the other shrimp not in the chart be?

@hopemaierle6483

Жыл бұрын

So from what I understand the shrimp they are bred with can affect the outcomes by bringing in more genetics. Let's say you want a var. green, it comes from an orange. Pretend for a moment that your shrimp can reproduce by itself. That orange shrimp has a possibility of giving you the green, but let's say a green is less likely than an orange rili since the orange rili trait is more dominant. Now step back to choosing which shrimp to breed it with. From my understanding you could breed it with any shrimp, since both the mom and dad will pass on genes, and have a chance of getting that green you want. However, if you breed two oranges together your chances will be higher since it is likely that both the shrimp have the green gene. So if you want a specific shrimp color as long as you have the shrimp the color comes from, you could breed it with anything and you have a chance of getting it, but it won't be as high as if you bred two of the shrimp your desired color comes from.

@hopemaierle6483

Жыл бұрын

Sorry in advance for the long reply if you ever read it. I hope it helps and if you have any questions you could ask and I could try to answer them.

I accidentally left a giant tape worm in my shrimp tank and now I can find it how do I rid the fish of tape worms without hurting my shrimps. Please help

@Fishtory

20 күн бұрын

Low dose levamisol If you live in the USA. IF not, only a vet can prescribe you dewormers

There's a little boo-boo at 1:44. The chart doesn't show the greens coming from that palmata. There's a 4th davidi WT between the green and the palmata.

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

is it zhangesis or something like that? because they keep changing lines...I updated the video and put the newest "confirmed " routes of genetics up... however as I say in the newest video, there are several paths to many of them. especially since folks bred them- let them revert wild then rebred them down another line in some cases. ...i'm excited for genetic work to finally get done next year, on all the strains

11:05 Really O’Reilly Shrimp

So can red orange throw green I’m my understanding the chart

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Well sort of... either line can throw em... its likely just like when wild red lobsters throw blue lobsters

why there's no violet? just curious

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

red and blue pigments make a dark purple but seemingly violet escapes the hobby, perhaps an albino gene and cross of blue red or blue rili will someday create a true purple and violet/pink

@vicgonzales9409

5 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory thanks for the answer is really appreciated,btw just recently started to the hobby :)

how do i make soft water? ive killed them a few times... they get pale and just slowly go one by one.

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

you can purchase distilled water or buy a RO/DI SYSTEM. although cherry shrimp now seem to handle tds of 500+ some times...so make sure ammonia and nitrogen compounds are close to zero

My green jades could turn themselves orange

@Fishtory

2 жыл бұрын

Yup

I can't find any videos that actually talk about breeding shrimp, they all talk about talking about it

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

shrimp just breed my friend. put them together

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

look at the tanks visually... it's not all spoken info. and the genetics If you want a special shrimp

The chart says yellow is from davidii

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

There is a yellow from davidi, however the newer strains also come from zhangjiajiensis and palmata hybrids as well

There's 4 on the chart not 3.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Correct, I was just speaking about the stable 3 color morphs... one wild morph isn't common and is recessive. So it manifests as clarity vs foggy white or blue tissue

I’ve always thought they dyed the shrimp 😂

@orinovian7716

4 жыл бұрын

Me too...

!!

Mixing colors is bad. Oh, yeah, I was talking about shrimp.. 😂

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Lol

@TheCowby

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory Based 😎

How defug u kw so much powerful

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+Nicholas Tang haha years of research

@Fishtory

6 жыл бұрын

+Nicholas Tang haha years of research

LMAO niga said there are 3 of N. davidi WT but in the left under palmata there is the fourth type.

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

It's a separate species

that is not what u think the purple colour is a sign that the shrimp is gona die bcoz of water is not all suitable fr ur shrimp

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't ever seen a stable purple line from neocaridina, so I'm not sure what you are referring to?

@Abhi-jd3ju

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory i have seen many red cherry shrimp turning to purple few weeks back... bacoz i haven't change the water nd the water became poision nd all the dark purple shrimp died.. then i aded a water filter nd changed the water.. the shrimp again came back to normal red colour life

@Fishtory

3 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah, if they have necrotizing muscle disease that happens too .. from too much bad bacterial load

looks like I am the only one bothered by this (and maybe the 14 who disliked this video) - but you are explaining a chart on a screen and you are holding your camera with a shaky hand, when you could have just inserted the image and occasional flashes, when you discussed a particular colour variation, and put those beside the voice recording. I am not a video editor expert and I could have done it. no need to give car sickness to people who just want to learn about shrimp.

@andrewborges7768

5 жыл бұрын

Stop being a little bitch

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

I will gladly accept your offer to refilm this! Thank you so much! I mean, there is a version after this one that is exanded and where the camera is fixed compared to my old camera and using youtube low grade -no stabilization, studio app....(now dead app). Just send me the link please! thanks! oh or you could just feeze the screen on the chart and listen in another window.... OR, YES, you could do what A.B. Said theres an update that's not dizzying like 20 on my channel actually...i unlinked this video because i left auto focus off using the old youtube video app (which zoom and stability were terrible on) but people had already shared it like 100 times, so i reopened it at like 4k views...however youtube is promoting my worst videos in many cases haha, probably just the lowest common denominator when someone watches 20 seconds of video on average ( my channel's average is thankfully almost 6 minutes...5.5 minutes above the total youtube viewer average)

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

i should send you some free shrimp! where do you live?

@csillakaszas7285

5 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory butthurt much? also, enunciate! and welcome for the constructive criticism. warms my heart when it is so well received. :*

@andrewborges7768

5 жыл бұрын

@@Fishtory I am not too sure if you are speaking to me or not but I am in Rhode Island and if you have some for sale I'd be interested in purchasing some for a new 40 gallon breeder nature aquarium I am working on. What is the best way to get in touch with you if so?

You said if you add too much blue to red shrimp you get purple, and just the right amount gives you crimson red..... Really? Than isn't there purple neo cardinia shrimp?? Why does no one sell them? And Why isn't it on your color chart? I'll tell you why.... Because what you said is not true. we aren't mixing paint here. Breeding is alot more complicated than "Red + blue shrimp = purple. Blue + yellow = green. NO. Just NO. Thats NOT how it works.

@Fishtory

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, usually I wouldn't respond to people like you...but watch the whole video...for that matter watch the specific next video where i say exactly what you just said.... you're a very lazy elitist, if you can't properly even watch a whole video to post some arrogant comment. I say the exact thing you just said.... "it's not like mixing paints".... yeah it's not on my chart because no one has had a stable line yet...however lucas bretz and monica polhore have both had colonies with purples appearing about 5% of births. SO i never said "you can get a stable purple line, " simply that purple shrimp have happened- and specifically it's because of bloody mary shrimp crossed with blue dreams that inherited blue exoskeleton and red flesh- looking dark purple... also sometimes you'll get wild reverts with pink or lilac colors... i have recent videos with thumbnails of purple babaulti shrimp also